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[ { "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Perfectly happy.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the—. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this—we'll probably come on to that.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Shall I address that in terms—? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is—. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 µg. So, the same act—. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It would.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "My own personal involvement?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Or the service's.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in—. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes—I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If the defence argue that that act was—. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's great.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see—. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes—if it does—for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement—Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose—at least, 'adequate' might sound a little—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Sufficient.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Fit for purpose, yes.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will—. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child—reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales—it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers—and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution—it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever—12, 18 months, maybe 24 months—where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask—? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Sixteen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and—", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "A child can't consent to assault.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you for that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Vikki.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Perfectly happy.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the—. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this—we'll probably come on to that.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Shall I address that in terms—? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is—. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 µg. So, the same act—. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It would.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "My own personal involvement?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Or the service's.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in—. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes—I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If the defence argue that that act was—. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's great.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see—. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes—if it does—for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement—Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose—at least, 'adequate' might sound a little—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Sufficient.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Fit for purpose, yes.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will—. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child—reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales—it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers—and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution—it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever—12, 18 months, maybe 24 months—where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask—? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Sixteen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and—", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "A child can't consent to assault.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you for that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Vikki.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Perfectly happy.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the—. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this—we'll probably come on to that.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Shall I address that in terms—? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is—. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 µg. So, the same act—. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It would.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "My own personal involvement?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Or the service's.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in—. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes—I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If the defence argue that that act was—. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's great.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see—. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes—if it does—for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement—Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose—at least, 'adequate' might sound a little—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Sufficient.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Fit for purpose, yes.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will—. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child—reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales—it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers—and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution—it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever—12, 18 months, maybe 24 months—where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask—? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Sixteen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and—", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "A child can't consent to assault.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you for that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Vikki.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Perfectly happy.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the—. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this—we'll probably come on to that.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Shall I address that in terms—? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is—. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 µg. So, the same act—. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It would.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "My own personal involvement?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Or the service's.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in—. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes—I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If the defence argue that that act was—. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's great.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see—. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes—if it does—for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement—Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose—at least, 'adequate' might sound a little—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Sufficient.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Fit for purpose, yes.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will—. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child—reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales—it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers—and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution—it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever—12, 18 months, maybe 24 months—where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask—? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Sixteen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and—", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "A child can't consent to assault.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you for that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Vikki.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Perfectly happy.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the—. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this—we'll probably come on to that.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Shall I address that in terms—? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is—. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 µg. So, the same act—. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It would.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "My own personal involvement?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Or the service's.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in—. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes—I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If the defence argue that that act was—. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's great.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see—. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes—if it does—for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement—Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose—at least, 'adequate' might sound a little—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Sufficient.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Fit for purpose, yes.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will—. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child—reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales—it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers—and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution—it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever—12, 18 months, maybe 24 months—where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask—? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Sixteen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and—", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "A child can't consent to assault.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you for that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Vikki.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Perfectly happy.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the—. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this—we'll probably come on to that.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Shall I address that in terms—? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is—. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 µg. So, the same act—. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It would.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "My own personal involvement?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Or the service's.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in—. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes—I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If the defence argue that that act was—. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's great.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see—. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes—if it does—for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement—Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose—at least, 'adequate' might sound a little—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Sufficient.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Fit for purpose, yes.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will—. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child—reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales—it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers—and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution—it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever—12, 18 months, maybe 24 months—where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask—? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Sixteen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and—", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "A child can't consent to assault.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you for that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Vikki.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Perfectly happy.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the—. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this—we'll probably come on to that.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Shall I address that in terms—? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is—. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 µg. So, the same act—. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It would.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "My own personal involvement?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Or the service's.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in—. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes—I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If the defence argue that that act was—. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's great.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see—. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes—if it does—for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement—Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose—at least, 'adequate' might sound a little—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Sufficient.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Fit for purpose, yes.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will—. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child—reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales—it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers—and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution—it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever—12, 18 months, maybe 24 months—where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask—? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Sixteen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and—", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "A child can't consent to assault.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you for that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Vikki.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Perfectly happy.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the—. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this—we'll probably come on to that.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Shall I address that in terms—? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is—. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 µg. So, the same act—. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It would.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "My own personal involvement?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Or the service's.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in—. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes—I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If the defence argue that that act was—. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's great.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see—. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes—if it does—for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement—Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose—at least, 'adequate' might sound a little—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Sufficient.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Fit for purpose, yes.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will—. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child—reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales—it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers—and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution—it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever—12, 18 months, maybe 24 months—where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask—? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Sixteen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and—", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "A child can't consent to assault.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you for that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Vikki.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Perfectly happy.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the—. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this—we'll probably come on to that.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Shall I address that in terms—? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is—. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 µg. So, the same act—. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It would.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "My own personal involvement?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Or the service's.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in—. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes—I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If the defence argue that that act was—. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's great.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see—. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes—if it does—for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement—Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose—at least, 'adequate' might sound a little—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Sufficient.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Fit for purpose, yes.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will—. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child—reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales—it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers—and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution—it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever—12, 18 months, maybe 24 months—where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask—? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Sixteen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and—", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "A child can't consent to assault.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you for that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Vikki.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Perfectly happy.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the—. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this—we'll probably come on to that.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Shall I address that in terms—? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is—. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 µg. So, the same act—. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It would.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "My own personal involvement?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Or the service's.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in—. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes—I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If the defence argue that that act was—. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's great.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see—. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes—if it does—for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement—Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose—at least, 'adequate' might sound a little—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Sufficient.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Fit for purpose, yes.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will—. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child—reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales—it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers—and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution—it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever—12, 18 months, maybe 24 months—where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask—? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Sixteen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and—", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "A child can't consent to assault.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you for that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Vikki.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Perfectly happy.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the—. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this—we'll probably come on to that.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Shall I address that in terms—? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is—. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 µg. So, the same act—. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It would.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "My own personal involvement?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Or the service's.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in—. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes—I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If the defence argue that that act was—. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's great.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see—. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes—if it does—for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement—Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose—at least, 'adequate' might sound a little—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Sufficient.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Fit for purpose, yes.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will—. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child—reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales—it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers—and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution—it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever—12, 18 months, maybe 24 months—where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask—? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Sixteen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and—", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "A child can't consent to assault.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you for that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Vikki.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Perfectly happy.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the—. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this—we'll probably come on to that.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Shall I address that in terms—? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is—. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 µg. So, the same act—. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It would.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "My own personal involvement?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Or the service's.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in—. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes—I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If the defence argue that that act was—. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's great.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see—. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes—if it does—for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement—Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose—at least, 'adequate' might sound a little—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Sufficient.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Fit for purpose, yes.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will—. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child—reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales—it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers—and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution—it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever—12, 18 months, maybe 24 months—where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask—? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Sixteen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and—", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "A child can't consent to assault.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you for that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Vikki.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our eleventh evidence session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing your views on the Bill. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Perfectly happy.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you very much. I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect children?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, which provides for offences that are specific to children. But the more general criminal legislation, such as the Offences Against the Person Act, does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault. In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child. By way of contrast, it is not available for an offence involving an adult. In that regard, it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that's happened since 2007.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature, and should be evolutionary in nature. And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offence as raping one's married wife, and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable. And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation. Of course, as we move forward in time, the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future. So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think it will make things clearer. I'm not sure it will make them much clearer, because if we get into some of the—. It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage. And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm, causing grievous bodily harm with intent, and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act. In that sense, matters were clarified, because up until that point it was not entirely clear. There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in. A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm et cetera. So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable. I don't think that it is what it says, but there is a degree of confusion around that. And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few examples?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the child at that point is an assault, because it's an unwanted imposition of physical force. But no-one's going to say that's anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts. Of course, that would be utter nonsense. There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances, whether this is something that happens frequently with the child, the size of the child, the parent, the force of the slap, the way in which it's imposed. So, that, I would say, sits at one end of the spectrum. As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature. There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision. We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it. And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it's an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court. That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end. Because if you're removing this—we'll probably come on to that.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Shall I address that in terms—? Okay. So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, and the second stage is—. And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied. If there isn't enough evidence, we don't go on to consider whether it's in the public interest, because we wouldn't put an offence before the courts if we didn't think there was a realistic prospect of conviction. So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we don't always agree. It's a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service. So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS. I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed, but it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute. It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists, which takes us on to considering the public interest. In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But isn't it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that? Do you know what I'm saying?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thanks.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Hello. The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious but it's still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England, because the defence would still apply there. That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales, travelling to Barry Island for a holiday, and troublesome children in the back of the car, harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they're on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence. By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws, and the example I'll give to you is this: drink driving. In England and Wales, the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath. Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 µg. So, the same act—. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England, but the punishment, namely disqualification, applies everywhere in the United Kingdom. So, we already have a degree of divergence of law, and the CPS recognises this. In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So, would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding, for instance, or it being useful in these circumstances, or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's yet to move from a Bill into an Act, so we'd need to make sure that happened. We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances. In terms of how we'd approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in Cymru-Wales, my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales. And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who've got a close network and can talk with each other—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that would be primarily around the public interest issue.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "It would.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "I understand. Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "My own personal involvement?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Or the service's.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis. I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough involvement so that we've felt we've been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. So you've been satisfied with the level of involvement that you've had.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes. I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the guidance, weren't we, and whether that needs amending to reflect it. But I think you were saying that you felt, within the existing guidance, it could be dealt with, so you don't see a need to update or amend the guidance.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England, and we might have some light-touch guidance around that. When it comes to the public interest stage, that's a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "But you would expect that to be something you would—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I have no doubt. To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we're interested and that is under way. So, actually, I'm probably being unfair to myself. I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "They would need to be aware, but not to the same extent. We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales. So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to work for us on secondment, or they'll come to work for us permanently. We'd need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in England for assaults upon children that isn't available in Wales if this Bill goes through, and then it's dealing with the consequences of that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's fine. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in—. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly. Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement in this. What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity. And we'd need to work that up as we go along, and I think you'd run a risk of putting the cart before the horse, if I may put it like that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance, and we've been told that this is probably the first time it's happened. Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let's not stretch that into children. [Laughter.] But, you know, sometimes—I'll be quiet. But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales; it's not an offence in England. There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of course, the topic we're discussing here is of real relevance for the general public, and you have heard evidence, I know, already, that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it. One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour. I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. If I can give you another example. I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them. Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment. In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Do you think that what we're doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "We've got some specific questions around implementation now from Suzy Davies.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Can I just begin by asking you to help the committee out here in understanding how the burden of proof is going to work if this defence is removed? Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent to say, to use your example, 'I was just dragging them out of the traffic or stopping them putting their hands in the fire'?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I understand your point. There's no change whatsoever to the burden of proof, nor to the standard of proof.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Perhaps you can run us through it quickly.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If the defence argue that that act was—. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the prosecution, which is to establish its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's great.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. So, you can certainly see—. I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talking about CPS guidelines and all the rest, we've already come some distance down the process, haven't we? Have you got any views on what might be done to prevent cases even coming as far as arrest? Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "From the perspective of the CPS, I'm not sure I can help you there.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's fine. I was expecting that answer.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Simply because that's a matter for the police. Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do something about it and we can't. We can't direct the police.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that, because I thought that was important to get on the record as well. We're looking at a period of a couple of years after this Act passes—if it does—for implementation. Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreast of things as they move forward. We need involvement—Iwan, for example, and the strategic implementation group. We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I think we've got a network of contacts built up here that is adequate for the purpose—at least, 'adequate' might sound a little—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Sufficient.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, perfectly sufficient.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Fit for purpose, yes.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the Welsh Government that this reasonable period after Royal Assent would be necessary. Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "If this legislation goes through, there will be minor financial consequences for us and I don't see any significant financial consequences in the period between now and the Bill becoming law other than the time of ourselves in discussing this today. But there isn't anything significant. There's nothing that will impact upon our performance as the public prosecution service in that time.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Certainly. Well, I think that we are going to need to maintain a clear record of any cases that are referred to the CPS from the police and that will—. Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child—reasonable chastisement. Trying to get that through on a system that covers all of England and Wales—it's quite expensive, unbelievably; it wouldn't happen. So, we would keep a manual log of every referral. That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment; I've seen the research that's been fed through from New Zealand; and I've seen our own response to a freedom of information request and the papers that the CPS put into the review that you mentioned earlier in 2007. I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers—and we might not have any. Okay? It depends. Obviously, if there's a really good awareness-raising campaign, you make it less likely. And, for us, prosecution—it's not the first port of call here at all. There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep the situation under review, and we'd reach a period of time after whatever—12, 18 months, maybe 24 months—where we'd look back to see how we are doing. And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against the person, we will bring together interested parties, by which I mean people from outside the CPS, quite often third sector agencies that represent vulnerable groups. We'd bring them in and look through the cases. So, we open our books, show them our cases, and we have a very frank discussion. We involve the police in that as well. That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the police and interested parties from both sides, to have a discussion about how we're doing with it all. And I'd like to think that the Welsh Government would be involved in that as well.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is. And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing even the current public interest tests are pretty low. In which case, my question is: why are we bothering with this law rather than concentrating on a new piece of law, possibly through the civil system, which would achieve the culture change better? Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection for children, and I think the value that would derive from this legislation is the message that it sends out. I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, but there won't be fewer than there are presently, because there's a greater degree of protection for children.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, that's really helpful, thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Before we move on, can I just ask—? The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18—", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Sixteen.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now specifically on prosecutions and potential alternatives from Vikki Howells.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Can I give you an example, which might illustrate the way in which things could be different? This is one, which—I give credit to Iwan for this, because he thought of it. If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the legs, which does the trick and the child stops. Presently, if someone in that supermarket were to report that to the police, I think the police would probably conclude that that is covered by the defence of reasonable chastisement. In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defence didn't apply at all, and we had a sequence of three offences, the public interest test would kick in, if I may put it like that, pretty quickly, because it would be repeated behaviour. So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and trying to come up with an approach that is proportionate to the offending. We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previous convictions. If someone's got previous convictions for doing something wrong, it's more likely they're going to be prosecuted the next time. But there's no part of the law that says that prosecution will always follow. Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you, that's really useful, and—", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill and groups of parents who are for the Bill, and one of the parents this morning was querying where the interests of the child would come into the public interest test. Now, I've looked at the code and there is a section about impact on the victim. Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In circumstances where both parents, arguably, are the suspects, we probably wouldn't be asking them. We would find another way, and we would talk with the police to ensure that we are informed about how the child feels about what has happened. It may be that there are—. I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a way to cut through that to work out really from the police how does the child feel about that. So, we would tailor it to the circumstances of the particular incident to assess how the child feels about it. It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a quick smack and a cwtch, or you're going to your bedroom for quarter of an hour', and the child is allowed to choose and the child chooses the smack, what happens then? I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that—", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "A child can't consent to assault.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, you can't consent to a serious assault, apart from in certain—. The law is really quite difficult. So, for example, tattooing is a serious assault on one level, but you can consent to a tattoo. I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serious, and involved people willingly applying themselves to things that no sane person would do. And the Court of Appeal in that case, a case called Brown, said, 'No, that's going too far—you can't consent to that.' Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that you can realistically consent to and then you get to offending you can't consent to. So, the law has considered that in some depth. I'm still not entirely clear, and I speak as a lawyer. When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you for that.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Vikki.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. I've got one further series of questions around out-of-court disposals, which you've already mentioned briefly. In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen. She is responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals. There is quite a range, and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved. I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called the director's guidance on charging, which is issued by the director of public prosecutions, which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge. Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them, a meaningful conversation, about what's the best way to approach that particular case. There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year-old youth—we  think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute. We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out-of-court disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution. Does that help?", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "It does. One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "The way I might see it is that, clearly, policing's not devolved, the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that, within Wales, you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of out-of-court disposals. You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion?", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorities, the police working in partnership. It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up. I'm not the right person to answer that question.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you, Chair.", "speaker": "Vikki Howells AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I'm not sure it's for me to say whether there should be a duty or not. I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change, a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales. Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that isn't an offence in their country, but is an offence here, then I'm afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence. So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something, which is potentially divisive, and I think you've probably seen some of that. Anything like that is a good story, and a good story gets out there, which means you're more likely to make people aware of it.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England, who will be able to use that defence? I think you've mentioned that in your written evidence.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me'. We probably would end up prosecuting, because it's a relatively serious offence. So, let's say it comes to court and let's say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they wouldn't have in England, and that, inevitably, has an impact upon their life prospects. But I think, along the road there, there would have been an element of choice.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. And do you think that that would be an isolated incident?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, truly, I believe, an isolated incident. I've said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases. They're likely to be very limited. When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a two-year period, and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage. Now, I have to say, I don't think that's entirely reliable, but it is indicative. We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage, which threw up something like three cases in a year. So, if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small, for the reasons we've explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence, in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach, are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child, because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I have to say I think that extremely unlikely. In the CPS, we don't have targets for securing convictions or not. Clearly, we prosecute if we think that there's a reasonable prospect, a realistic prospect, of conviction and it's in the public interest, but we have no targets. And I would also say, because the numbers here are likely to be so small, any assertion of looking to meet targets—it's a tiny, tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "What about—? There is a target for unsolved crimes, or unsolved offences. What if they fall into that category? Is that an unintended consequence?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I'm talking about something I don't have great knowledge of here. There was, at one stage, a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection, which counted for Home Office figures. That disappeared some years ago. Some individual constabularies may still have targets, but, as far as I'm aware, we don't have a suite of national measures. The police are required to report against this, but we don't have targets. And, in my experience, the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago, in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target. It's much less of an issue than it ever was—much.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Okay. We've mentioned this, namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases. This happens now, of course. Is that going to increase if we change the law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "There is greater potential for it to increase. I think the numbers, again, will be tiny, and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses. Regrettably, there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute. Getting into the subtleties of the father, say, smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here. I can see it potentially arising. It's not something that would cause me concern, simply because we already have a well-developed approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce, sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, I think we've had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen. And I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Finally from me, therefore—another issue, in a way—the European convention on human rights. Would not introducing the new law mean, at some point, that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention? And therefore England as well, at some point.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Right. How to approach that one? In the 2007 review to which we've referred already, the Government, the then Government, set out its position that it believes that section 58, in the way that it was drafted, is compliant with the European convention. There are various parties who would disagree with that, but that was the then Government's position. If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law, then, arguably, Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not, and England would be less so. But nonetheless, at present, I haven't seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007, which is that they consider that the position that's been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation. It may well be tested by case law; that's the way it's likely to happen. Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so, that case I referred to, Regina v H, which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal, was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It could, but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "[Inaudible.]—like common law jurisdictions would be.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes. At this point in time, that'd be a bit of a punt.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. Suzy's touched on this mildly, but, in written evidence, you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service, and you're basing that, from your evidence here today, on the low numbers of prosecutions. So, we've been asked by individuals, and we've had consultation responses from individuals, who've argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it. What's your answer to that?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences, and I think probably about—. There are over—. From memory—please never hold me to this—but, from memory, there are something like 10,000 criminal offences; we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year. There are some offences on the statute—. I've been prosecuting for 32 years now; there are some offences that I've never come near and probably never will. But, nonetheless, the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So, we have various defences to do with Acts. I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there. Well, they're not something that we do, but it sets out what's tolerant—what's tolerable, sorry, and what isn't. So, the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is, for me, not a reason not to say that we shouldn't signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable. Clearly, we don't wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and don't do. The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate, which most people tend to understand. So, awareness is important and it comes back to that point.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court. Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law, and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "No. It's a potential barrier, but I don't think it is a barrier. There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales, and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that, and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries. Now, of course, if they were to decide not to do that anymore, we may have a problem, but, in turn, we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions. So, yes, it has the potential to serve as a barrier, but in practice, I don't think it would be a barrier. I think, particularly given the very low numbers we're talking about, we would be able to manage it. I've got no significant concerns, I have to say.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Thank you. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending, the three of you, and for your answers, which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy. Thank you again for your time in coming here today. Diolch yn fawr.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure.", "speaker": "Barry Hughes" }, { "content": "Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill, which has now been agreed. Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill. Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July. Are Members happy to note those? Item 4, then. Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

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And and the case is is rubber ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , rubber ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Plastic or rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} There are plastic or rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh the colouring ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yellow with uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} with with grey or black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "grey or black or something like that . Whatever cost uh cost uh the least . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'll we'll come to that later . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay . Anything else to add or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} Uh maybe we should uh think about these buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , you could use two of them to programme the um channels on the two channel button ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , but it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause you have to assign two channel {disfmarker} new channels .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but these are tasks that are only executed once , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M uh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or not ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M m but maybe you do want a programme button to uh for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well okay . Okay , yeah , that's right . Or something li like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And a button for disabling the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it {disfmarker} you'd disable it with a little beep and and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but o okay , that that's not really really important .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's the basic idea , yeah . Of our prototype .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The basic {disfmarker} okay . Okay . Um you thought of some evaluation crit criteria ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh my name is not name", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You are nameless . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well , I used the {gap} {disfmarker} the uh {gap} documents . And these uh were the most important criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is it spongy ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It should be . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that's uh how the fashion guys uh state it . Fancy look and feel . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So just walk through it step by step . I mean , is it fancy , everything {disfmarker} I believe uh I believe it's fancy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well appar", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I believe it's fancy too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but apparently uh we shouldn't evaluate yet .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this {disfmarker} these are the cr uh the criteria .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think these are the most important criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the then we'll switch to my presentation . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The production costs . The costs are not under {disfmarker} Can I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um this is the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twenty two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's w way above um uh above the the the twelve Euro fifty .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yikes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what makes it very expensive is uh for example the solar cell . So I guess we should skip that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well it's very expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's not that important .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why does the price and and the s oh , one uh exa", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . The number of uh {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um well , this is what I would call our luxury model . Um if you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and does it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if you look at the uh w w w what we could do to make it more um {vocalsound} to make it {vocalsound} just between the twelve Euro fifty , um then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , um by not using the voice recognition feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's uh it's a four Euro uh addition to the price .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Yeah , I believe {disfmarker} Uh , push-button , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It makes it the thirteen {disfmarker} yeah . Push-buttons are {disfmarker} buttons are are not the most expensive , but do add extra cost .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker} yeah , th this design is not um within our price model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm afraid it's not complete . Because we use spec uh specic uh special materials , the last item . And you have not added one item there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's c way too expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's still too expensive , yeah . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's that's only for the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I guess if we leave the {disfmarker} if we leave this one out , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So the button we can use plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh maybe not use the special form .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the pla uh {disfmarker} And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas uh instead of rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It becomes a very dull remote control , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's the board decision . Um {disfmarker} And um {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , b basically it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in uh an enhanced case with these dull functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I know . Maybe we should look at an {disfmarker} uh focus on another uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Type of m maybe another market segment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , m uh maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy uh uh um basic", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh m maximise the profits", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} maybe that's better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we could uh {disfmarker} we should go for straight and simple ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but that's not what uh has been asked .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we should kick the board's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Although I think we {disfmarker} yeah , but we could still make uh a remote control that ap uh um applies um more to young people uh by giving it another colour already .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so it is possible to make uh uh a device that attracts a little bit more to young people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um but uh I agree it's it's not a fancy high-tech uh device . Definitely not , no . {vocalsound} It's not that innovative .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or however you s pronounce that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , too bad . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um so , okay . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Oh ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is the wrong one . So uh that means redesign . {vocalsound} We do not have the time o uh now to to redesign the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} but we can evaluate the process and um uh uh the satisfaction on how things went . Um I'm not sure if we need to evaluate uh the device first . I guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um well , since we're not gonna manufacture it anyway {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We l we can learn . Yeah . Yeah . I agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it fancy ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I d it is it is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yay . Is it ? Is it fancy ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um the yellow rubber , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You like the rubber , uh Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm into it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's not that fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I'll I'll I'll give it a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean I think uh {disfmarker} I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing {disfmarker} the casing . It would be even more {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You like tita {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh , you really like titanium . I'm I'm into it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a flavour as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It has flavour . Yes , that's right . {vocalsound} You should taste it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Right . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but but it {disfmarker} but that's fancy in the way um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean fancy has has a lot of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It has to do with fashion , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's trendy trendy , fun {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And w", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , w what they want {disfmarker} wanted was uh colours and soft materials .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So in that way {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it's fancy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It applies . It {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , just {vocalsound} give it a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's not the ultimate uh fancy two , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think I th I think it would have been {disfmarker} I would have think {disfmarker} uh it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's sti that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Looking at the user uh needs , we only uh don't {disfmarker} we don't have the double-curved case . We w we do have uh the rubber , we do have the colours . That's two out of three . So I believe uh we are close uh to two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I agree too . It's okay . We did {gap} {disfmarker} yes , we did good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , and uh was it innovative ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "with the voice recognition feature and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's not in it . Ov or can we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , we are evaluating this this uh design now . This prototype .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , let's let's {disfmarker} this product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I I I think it is . I think it's innovative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And the scroll uh wheel . The solar {disfmarker} not many remotes have the solar , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic uh energy source , but it's it's way too {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That would have been a thrill .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh also a uh two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh it's a two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it easy to use ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not sure . {vocalsound} I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . Well , hard {disfmarker} it's not for the for the e for the elderly . They won't use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , but there are two parts in this remote control . What you see here is is the basic part . Everybody can use it , so that's easy to use .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's for a novice user . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . So in that in that way it is advanced ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I think it's easy to use for for both uh types of users .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} I think a three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} It's maybe {disfmarker} it's not very uh easy for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wouldn't give it more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I'm doubting {disfmarker} doubting as well . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the p the most important function is easy to use . The the zapping , channel switching , volume . But the more advanced functions are probably a bit harder .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? I mean ease of use um does not only apply to the most basic functions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the uh it's it's overall . Is the device easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . You're right in that , but I {gap} {disfmarker} I guess uh an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because he is already {disfmarker} he or she is already an advanced user .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "After all , I think {disfmarker} personally I would give a two . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Roo , a three ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good question . Uh I'll go uh for the two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , it's two , two and three . Two threes . So that's ten .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I could make it e easy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you make it a four it will be three in general .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's w No , two and a half .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If he makes it a four . Not a three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Six and four . Six and four is ten . Divided by four is two and a half . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Darn . Nee .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ? Huh ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A seven , a three {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A four and a three together .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Four ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have a two , he has a two . Three ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "two , two , three {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And a three ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I haven't said anything yet .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nee . I know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . Divided by four is two point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Divided by four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes . So if you want to have the conclusion as a three {disfmarker} three . Then you would make a four . If you fill out a four {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I'm filling in a three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's not even {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Does it {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} so it will be a two point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But that's not possible to fill in ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , it is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so we have to round it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is it easy to find ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I have a veto . {vocalsound} Exactly . It's not about the content , it's about {disfmarker} okay , um is it easy to f Yeah , definitely .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we haven't re uh re uh really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it most definitely is {disfmarker} it's very easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , or beeps or {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Maybe {disfmarker} Uh I I think I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm here , I'm here . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "something like that . Maybe you have to uh programme it once , so to that l respond to uh a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . So something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even without it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , I th", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we should not uh stay too long on this subject uh because of the time , but I personally give it a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , me too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Me too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , well . The feel of the remote control is spongy . Well , uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it can't be more spongy . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it can be . There are cases um in which the outside casing is {disfmarker} um can be {disfmarker} uh how d how do you prono is is moldable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Was it one of our options ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's not one of our option ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No okay , but but", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , in the in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but when you look in the market , when you look {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this this was a most spongy option . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "for the options given , it's the most spongy one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that's not that's not uh what they are talking about , I think . Because we compare all these uh characteristics {disfmarker} characteristics with uh market {disfmarker} uh with with the real market .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So there are uh remote controls out there which are a lot more spongy . They're out there . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} They're out there . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , but it's not good enough ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'll give it a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it's a two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} I wan I'll take one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You take one ? What do you give it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig uh a number . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because we need to go on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} for the time .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , if I give it a one there'll be one hell of a calculation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I'll just give it a two and make this a one point five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no no . Uh I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The remote control offers enough features .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the basic layout doesn't offem {disfmarker} offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Basically it's it's completely programmable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , depends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can add very m much functionality by uh using the voice recognition mode .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's quite advanced .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What what we didn't talk about is um uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {vocalsound} it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's {disfmarker} If you uh ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is {disfmarker} it has all the features um a normal remote has .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh depends on what you uh implement in the speech feat", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Bec because you can um {disfmarker} we didn't talk about it , but you do have uh remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you place a a regular uh remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the uh the um {gap} {disfmarker} the the signals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Has uh the signals sent to it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Signal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you could uh uh uh enter any comment you like , as long it's able to {disfmarker} as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . So I think th this uh this is uh a a remote control with a very high level of features .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Absolutely .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Although there are i a few buttons , but the inside is is quite uh advanced .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . But that {disfmarker} that's its power , I guess , because uh a regular programmable uh remote control contains , well , uh really a lot of buttons . At at least uh forty buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's it's quite s complicated to get uh to get used to . And this is quite s simple .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can use your voice to to programme it . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , um let's give it a number . I'll give it uh a one . For for the {disfmarker} for this t uh type of market , I think it's a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll give a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I'll give it a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think think a one , 'cause {gap} v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . I I've {disfmarker} I think we've uh succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So high quality , low acceptance .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The product is is is uh b high qua uh has a high quality and and is uh advanced . But {vocalsound} whether or not our clients are are um willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is {disfmarker} well , is not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "D do you agree ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I agree . I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe even because it doesn't look advanced .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe we should have a radar uh {vocalsound} function . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we could {disfmarker} couldn't uh {disfmarker} what what's the selling price ? Fifty ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh twenty five . And costs were twelve fifty .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even now , if only our production costs w {vocalsound} uh were exceeded the double , Think . Production cost was {disfmarker} were t uh was twenty two ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh {gap} selling price uh would be uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "M about fifty Euros .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite ex", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's price , but w w", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , uh a Phillips remote control , y you pay uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . It's quite expensive , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I kn I know uh from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bu but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are uh remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , but you can you c Yes , but you can learn this thing , all these functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's easier to use because those uh remote controls don't offer voice recognition", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and this one does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think it's worth its price .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um you had an overall rating . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} with these ratings uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's counting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it's about one point five . Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "should be about one point s seven ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Four six seven eight .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nine divided by six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Um we'll go further on with the the rest of the evaluation . About the project itself , not about the product . Um {disfmarker} What did you think about uh the process , the project process ? Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Try to translate that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Any any other {disfmarker} Uh , Roo ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ye", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The process was good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But w um we weren't aware of the prices of the costs .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and that was the the big deal . I if we knew that before , we c we could have made", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Actually , we had {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the the choice between {gap} what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Better decision .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We had we had too little information actually .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} And uh um the the the {disfmarker} well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too {disfmarker} the the choice of components was way too narrow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Less . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So there was not really a process of uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we could we we could be {disfmarker} we could've been creative . But um it was tempered by the choice of components and the the price .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The prices .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , in the first meeting we we already were very creative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We we thought of possibilities {vocalsound} who are not possible uh with the the current uh offer of uh manufacturing components . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're tempered by that , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I agree .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You agree , okay . Uh leadership .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fantastic . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , Roo's on for his promotion . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we're a good team .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think so too , it's it's it's uh of course a laboratory environment . I missed it um to be able to contact you in between and uh say uh , hey Roo uh {gap} . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I tried once , but that was not allowed . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but but si uh w w w {gap} {disfmarker} when taken in account the the situation , uh I think we performed pretty well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the means , the SMARTboard , the digital pen . Did you like 'em ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh . The digital pen was okay , but SMARTboard was really bad .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because of the response", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Response", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The response is very slow", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and the possibilities are very limited . It's not accurate .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh it it has {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah , it's not accurate . The p the pointing of the pen is not um the place where it it writes its {disfmarker} um uh where it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Draws .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , where it draws . It's uh {disfmarker} the drawing on on the b on the board is {gap} r right from the pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it it had to be um better aligned , or what's the word ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You to take in account that your {disfmarker} you m", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} it needs to be calibrateds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's too slow {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it was calibrated just before this meeting . Uh the one before , the third meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh it's not the calibration ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it's the thing itself , I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , w uh did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not at all .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not really .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I thought it was quite a handy uh thing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "although I would like to see um O_C_R_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If it has O_C_R_ {vocalsound} , uh I think uh I would use , but uh I I just uh took notes for myself and and and that's it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It w it w yeah . It was necessary for me to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To digitise them .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because if I want something on the computer , I just type it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I type faster than I write .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think it's a great solution for uh for uh a known problem , uh writing down some notes , some some inf uh information , and then um forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy {disfmarker} it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's a good product . I only think it's th the the shape of the pen is too big .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's not quite uh ergonomic . Eco ergonomic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Economic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um {disfmarker} What w Uh Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , you can't really decide . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} can't say much about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I missed a feature to easily select uh a slide and uh distribute it to the laptops . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , or the other way around .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or the other way around , that you could show {disfmarker} but m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But y you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite what PowerPoint does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you save this image , you can open it in your shared work folder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's almost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but we couldn't use that feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I missed it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We weren't able to do that . At least the {disfmarker} um I wasn't explained how to do such a th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {gap} . A and the function of of filling an an uh an oval or an an object .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "An object , yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's not possible {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The drawing cap capabilities are very limited .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and uh w you were {disfmarker} when you're using uh Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , uh which you can use for drawing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And a lot of these buttons don't appear here . So it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it looks like paint actually .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so y it {disfmarker} it's not even as advanced as paint .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not not uh n not {gap} way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite uh limited .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh no . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , the project is evaluated . Um but , well , we need to redesign uh the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Oh , very good , celebration .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Celebrate", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pop uh pop up the champagne . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was a privilege working with you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you're dismissed . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think we are uh ready .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "To private rooms ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I see some action over there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Private room , Roo . That sounds quite scary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , let's find uh the way to {gap} . {vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} uh we're done , we're finished , {gap} I believe . So , are there any more cycles in this process ? I think not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't believe so . Well , maybe we'd {disfmarker} get an email . Thank you for your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um how much time did we get for this meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Forty minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And how much time is left ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A minute or or ten maybe . M", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ten minutes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , ten or five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , we can uh redesign our uh {disfmarker} Uh I would like to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . A simple , dull , uh one-coloured box .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And no added value . At all .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you see the problem ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "y you can't continue your uh your line . Well , it's fluffy alright . {vocalsound} Spongy . A giraffe ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What is that ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's a giraffe eating a {disfmarker} eating leaves from a tree .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's blue tongue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In interesting design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} This is a new model . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you're actually promoting Bluetooth . Or blue tongue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Blue tongue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh uh it it does uh have a natural uh feeling .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's spongy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} That is uh {disfmarker} it's a new feature next to Bluetooth to um disable all Bluetooth devices . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Blue tongue .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Let's wrap it up .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we're done here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Gentlemen , thank you for your cooperation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you Mister manager . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Now , {vocalsound} let's have uh a bottle of champagne .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . Leave it here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's alright . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "That's the same as uh on the top of it uh with the the round uh button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh we don't uh we don't uh {disfmarker} we do think it's um well {disfmarker} what if with ease of use , w which prefers the {disfmarker} which the the customer of the user prefers .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's important . Uh I think th this is device which which has a learning curve . Um novice users u use this device as uh normal users use uh a c a remote control . And after a while they start to develop uh some skills in the the voice recognition functions , and then they will not use this dial as often . But other users who are new to this device need something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They n they need to understand what {disfmarker} uh how to change channels and uh change the volume , so it's easier for them", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could could I see the scroll bar as uh as as a sort of shortcut ? A a and the voice recognition as well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe so . Yes , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th maybe you could uh could uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it's it's another approach , it's more that our um {gap} . {vocalsound} There are there are many ways of doing uh things uh on such a device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's it's quite easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , good . And and the case is is rubber ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , rubber ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Plastic or rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} There are plastic or rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh the colouring ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yellow with uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} with with grey or black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "grey or black or something like that . Whatever cost uh cost uh the least . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'll we'll come to that later . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay . Anything else to add or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} Uh maybe we should uh think about these buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , you could use two of them to programme the um channels on the two channel button ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , but it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause you have to assign two channel {disfmarker} new channels .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but these are tasks that are only executed once , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M uh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or not ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M m but maybe you do want a programme button to uh for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well okay . Okay , yeah , that's right . Or something li like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And a button for disabling the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it {disfmarker} you'd disable it with a little beep and and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but o okay , that that's not really really important .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's the basic idea , yeah . Of our prototype .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The basic {disfmarker} okay . Okay . Um you thought of some evaluation crit criteria ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh my name is not name", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You are nameless . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well , I used the {gap} {disfmarker} the uh {gap} documents . And these uh were the most important criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is it spongy ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It should be . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that's uh how the fashion guys uh state it . Fancy look and feel . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So just walk through it step by step . I mean , is it fancy , everything {disfmarker} I believe uh I believe it's fancy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well appar", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I believe it's fancy too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but apparently uh we shouldn't evaluate yet .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this {disfmarker} these are the cr uh the criteria .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think these are the most important criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the then we'll switch to my presentation . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The production costs . The costs are not under {disfmarker} Can I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um this is the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twenty two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's w way above um uh above the the the twelve Euro fifty .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yikes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what makes it very expensive is uh for example the solar cell . So I guess we should skip that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well it's very expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's not that important .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why does the price and and the s oh , one uh exa", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . The number of uh {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um well , this is what I would call our luxury model . Um if you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and does it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if you look at the uh w w w what we could do to make it more um {vocalsound} to make it {vocalsound} just between the twelve Euro fifty , um then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , um by not using the voice recognition feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's uh it's a four Euro uh addition to the price .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Yeah , I believe {disfmarker} Uh , push-button , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It makes it the thirteen {disfmarker} yeah . Push-buttons are {disfmarker} buttons are are not the most expensive , but do add extra cost .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker} yeah , th this design is not um within our price model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm afraid it's not complete . Because we use spec uh specic uh special materials , the last item . And you have not added one item there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's c way too expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's still too expensive , yeah . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's that's only for the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I guess if we leave the {disfmarker} if we leave this one out , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So the button we can use plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh maybe not use the special form .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the pla uh {disfmarker} And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas uh instead of rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It becomes a very dull remote control , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's the board decision . Um {disfmarker} And um {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , b basically it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in uh an enhanced case with these dull functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I know . Maybe we should look at an {disfmarker} uh focus on another uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Type of m maybe another market segment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , m uh maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy uh uh um basic", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh m maximise the profits", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} maybe that's better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we could uh {disfmarker} we should go for straight and simple ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but that's not what uh has been asked .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we should kick the board's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Although I think we {disfmarker} yeah , but we could still make uh a remote control that ap uh um applies um more to young people uh by giving it another colour already .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so it is possible to make uh uh a device that attracts a little bit more to young people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um but uh I agree it's it's not a fancy high-tech uh device . Definitely not , no . {vocalsound} It's not that innovative .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or however you s pronounce that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , too bad . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um so , okay . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Oh ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is the wrong one . So uh that means redesign . {vocalsound} We do not have the time o uh now to to redesign the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} but we can evaluate the process and um uh uh the satisfaction on how things went . Um I'm not sure if we need to evaluate uh the device first . I guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um well , since we're not gonna manufacture it anyway {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We l we can learn . Yeah . Yeah . I agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it fancy ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I d it is it is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yay . Is it ? Is it fancy ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um the yellow rubber , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You like the rubber , uh Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm into it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's not that fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I'll I'll I'll give it a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean I think uh {disfmarker} I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing {disfmarker} the casing . It would be even more {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You like tita {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh , you really like titanium . I'm I'm into it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a flavour as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It has flavour . Yes , that's right . {vocalsound} You should taste it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Right . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but but it {disfmarker} but that's fancy in the way um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean fancy has has a lot of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It has to do with fashion , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's trendy trendy , fun {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And w", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , w what they want {disfmarker} wanted was uh colours and soft materials .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So in that way {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it's fancy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It applies . It {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , just {vocalsound} give it a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's not the ultimate uh fancy two , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think I th I think it would have been {disfmarker} I would have think {disfmarker} uh it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's sti that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Looking at the user uh needs , we only uh don't {disfmarker} we don't have the double-curved case . We w we do have uh the rubber , we do have the colours . That's two out of three . So I believe uh we are close uh to two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I agree too . It's okay . We did {gap} {disfmarker} yes , we did good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , and uh was it innovative ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "with the voice recognition feature and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's not in it . Ov or can we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , we are evaluating this this uh design now . This prototype .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , let's let's {disfmarker} this product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I I I think it is . I think it's innovative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And the scroll uh wheel . The solar {disfmarker} not many remotes have the solar , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic uh energy source , but it's it's way too {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That would have been a thrill .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh also a uh two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh it's a two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it easy to use ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not sure . {vocalsound} I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . Well , hard {disfmarker} it's not for the for the e for the elderly . They won't use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , but there are two parts in this remote control . What you see here is is the basic part . Everybody can use it , so that's easy to use .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's for a novice user . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . So in that in that way it is advanced ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I think it's easy to use for for both uh types of users .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} I think a three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} It's maybe {disfmarker} it's not very uh easy for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wouldn't give it more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I'm doubting {disfmarker} doubting as well . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the p the most important function is easy to use . The the zapping , channel switching , volume . But the more advanced functions are probably a bit harder .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? I mean ease of use um does not only apply to the most basic functions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the uh it's it's overall . Is the device easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . You're right in that , but I {gap} {disfmarker} I guess uh an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because he is already {disfmarker} he or she is already an advanced user .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "After all , I think {disfmarker} personally I would give a two . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Roo , a three ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good question . Uh I'll go uh for the two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , it's two , two and three . Two threes . So that's ten .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I could make it e easy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you make it a four it will be three in general .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's w No , two and a half .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If he makes it a four . Not a three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Six and four . Six and four is ten . Divided by four is two and a half . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Darn . Nee .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ? Huh ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A seven , a three {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A four and a three together .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Four ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have a two , he has a two . Three ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "two , two , three {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And a three ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I haven't said anything yet .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nee . I know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . Divided by four is two point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Divided by four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes . So if you want to have the conclusion as a three {disfmarker} three . Then you would make a four . If you fill out a four {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I'm filling in a three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's not even {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Does it {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} so it will be a two point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But that's not possible to fill in ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , it is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so we have to round it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is it easy to find ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I have a veto . {vocalsound} Exactly . It's not about the content , it's about {disfmarker} okay , um is it easy to f Yeah , definitely .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we haven't re uh re uh really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it most definitely is {disfmarker} it's very easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , or beeps or {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Maybe {disfmarker} Uh I I think I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm here , I'm here . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "something like that . Maybe you have to uh programme it once , so to that l respond to uh a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . So something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even without it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , I th", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we should not uh stay too long on this subject uh because of the time , but I personally give it a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , me too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Me too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , well . The feel of the remote control is spongy . Well , uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it can't be more spongy . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it can be . There are cases um in which the outside casing is {disfmarker} um can be {disfmarker} uh how d how do you prono is is moldable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Was it one of our options ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's not one of our option ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No okay , but but", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , in the in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but when you look in the market , when you look {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this this was a most spongy option . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "for the options given , it's the most spongy one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that's not that's not uh what they are talking about , I think . Because we compare all these uh characteristics {disfmarker} characteristics with uh market {disfmarker} uh with with the real market .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So there are uh remote controls out there which are a lot more spongy . They're out there . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} They're out there . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , but it's not good enough ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'll give it a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it's a two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} I wan I'll take one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You take one ? What do you give it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig uh a number . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because we need to go on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} for the time .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , if I give it a one there'll be one hell of a calculation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I'll just give it a two and make this a one point five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no no . Uh I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The remote control offers enough features .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the basic layout doesn't offem {disfmarker} offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Basically it's it's completely programmable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , depends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can add very m much functionality by uh using the voice recognition mode .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's quite advanced .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What what we didn't talk about is um uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {vocalsound} it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's {disfmarker} If you uh ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is {disfmarker} it has all the features um a normal remote has .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh depends on what you uh implement in the speech feat", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Bec because you can um {disfmarker} we didn't talk about it , but you do have uh remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you place a a regular uh remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the uh the um {gap} {disfmarker} the the signals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Has uh the signals sent to it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Signal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you could uh uh uh enter any comment you like , as long it's able to {disfmarker} as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . So I think th this uh this is uh a a remote control with a very high level of features .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Absolutely .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Although there are i a few buttons , but the inside is is quite uh advanced .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . But that {disfmarker} that's its power , I guess , because uh a regular programmable uh remote control contains , well , uh really a lot of buttons . At at least uh forty buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's it's quite s complicated to get uh to get used to . And this is quite s simple .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can use your voice to to programme it . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , um let's give it a number . I'll give it uh a one . For for the {disfmarker} for this t uh type of market , I think it's a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll give a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I'll give it a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think think a one , 'cause {gap} v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . I I've {disfmarker} I think we've uh succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So high quality , low acceptance .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The product is is is uh b high qua uh has a high quality and and is uh advanced . But {vocalsound} whether or not our clients are are um willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is {disfmarker} well , is not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "D do you agree ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I agree . I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe even because it doesn't look advanced .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe we should have a radar uh {vocalsound} function . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we could {disfmarker} couldn't uh {disfmarker} what what's the selling price ? Fifty ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh twenty five . And costs were twelve fifty .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even now , if only our production costs w {vocalsound} uh were exceeded the double , Think . Production cost was {disfmarker} were t uh was twenty two ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh {gap} selling price uh would be uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "M about fifty Euros .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite ex", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's price , but w w", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , uh a Phillips remote control , y you pay uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . It's quite expensive , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I kn I know uh from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bu but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are uh remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , but you can you c Yes , but you can learn this thing , all these functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's easier to use because those uh remote controls don't offer voice recognition", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and this one does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think it's worth its price .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um you had an overall rating . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} with these ratings uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's counting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it's about one point five . Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "should be about one point s seven ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Four six seven eight .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nine divided by six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Um we'll go further on with the the rest of the evaluation . About the project itself , not about the product . Um {disfmarker} What did you think about uh the process , the project process ? Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Try to translate that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Any any other {disfmarker} Uh , Roo ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ye", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The process was good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But w um we weren't aware of the prices of the costs .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and that was the the big deal . I if we knew that before , we c we could have made", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Actually , we had {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the the choice between {gap} what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Better decision .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We had we had too little information actually .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} And uh um the the the {disfmarker} well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too {disfmarker} the the choice of components was way too narrow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Less . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So there was not really a process of uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we could we we could be {disfmarker} we could've been creative . But um it was tempered by the choice of components and the the price .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The prices .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , in the first meeting we we already were very creative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We we thought of possibilities {vocalsound} who are not possible uh with the the current uh offer of uh manufacturing components . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're tempered by that , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I agree .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You agree , okay . Uh leadership .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fantastic . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , Roo's on for his promotion . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we're a good team .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think so too , it's it's it's uh of course a laboratory environment . I missed it um to be able to contact you in between and uh say uh , hey Roo uh {gap} . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I tried once , but that was not allowed . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but but si uh w w w {gap} {disfmarker} when taken in account the the situation , uh I think we performed pretty well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the means , the SMARTboard , the digital pen . Did you like 'em ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh . The digital pen was okay , but SMARTboard was really bad .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because of the response", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Response", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The response is very slow", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and the possibilities are very limited . It's not accurate .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh it it has {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah , it's not accurate . The p the pointing of the pen is not um the place where it it writes its {disfmarker} um uh where it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Draws .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , where it draws . It's uh {disfmarker} the drawing on on the b on the board is {gap} r right from the pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it it had to be um better aligned , or what's the word ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You to take in account that your {disfmarker} you m", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} it needs to be calibrateds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's too slow {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it was calibrated just before this meeting . Uh the one before , the third meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh it's not the calibration ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it's the thing itself , I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , w uh did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not at all .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not really .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I thought it was quite a handy uh thing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "although I would like to see um O_C_R_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If it has O_C_R_ {vocalsound} , uh I think uh I would use , but uh I I just uh took notes for myself and and and that's it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It w it w yeah . It was necessary for me to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To digitise them .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because if I want something on the computer , I just type it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I type faster than I write .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think it's a great solution for uh for uh a known problem , uh writing down some notes , some some inf uh information , and then um forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy {disfmarker} it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's a good product . I only think it's th the the shape of the pen is too big .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's not quite uh ergonomic . Eco ergonomic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Economic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um {disfmarker} What w Uh Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , you can't really decide . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} can't say much about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I missed a feature to easily select uh a slide and uh distribute it to the laptops . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , or the other way around .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or the other way around , that you could show {disfmarker} but m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But y you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite what PowerPoint does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you save this image , you can open it in your shared work folder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's almost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but we couldn't use that feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I missed it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We weren't able to do that . At least the {disfmarker} um I wasn't explained how to do such a th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {gap} . A and the function of of filling an an uh an oval or an an object .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "An object , yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's not possible {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The drawing cap capabilities are very limited .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and uh w you were {disfmarker} when you're using uh Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , uh which you can use for drawing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And a lot of these buttons don't appear here . So it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it looks like paint actually .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so y it {disfmarker} it's not even as advanced as paint .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not not uh n not {gap} way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite uh limited .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh no . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , the project is evaluated . Um but , well , we need to redesign uh the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Oh , very good , celebration .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Celebrate", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pop uh pop up the champagne . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was a privilege working with you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you're dismissed . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think we are uh ready .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "To private rooms ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I see some action over there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Private room , Roo . That sounds quite scary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , let's find uh the way to {gap} . {vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} uh we're done , we're finished , {gap} I believe . So , are there any more cycles in this process ? I think not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't believe so . Well , maybe we'd {disfmarker} get an email . Thank you for your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um how much time did we get for this meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Forty minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And how much time is left ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A minute or or ten maybe . M", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ten minutes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , ten or five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , we can uh redesign our uh {disfmarker} Uh I would like to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . A simple , dull , uh one-coloured box .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And no added value . At all .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you see the problem ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "y you can't continue your uh your line . Well , it's fluffy alright . {vocalsound} Spongy . A giraffe ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What is that ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's a giraffe eating a {disfmarker} eating leaves from a tree .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's blue tongue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In interesting design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} This is a new model . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you're actually promoting Bluetooth . Or blue tongue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Blue tongue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh uh it it does uh have a natural uh feeling .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's spongy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} That is uh {disfmarker} it's a new feature next to Bluetooth to um disable all Bluetooth devices . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Blue tongue .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Let's wrap it up .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we're done here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Gentlemen , thank you for your cooperation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you Mister manager . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Now , {vocalsound} let's have uh a bottle of champagne .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . Leave it here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's alright . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "That's the same as uh on the top of it uh with the the round uh button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh we don't uh we don't uh {disfmarker} we do think it's um well {disfmarker} what if with ease of use , w which prefers the {disfmarker} which the the customer of the user prefers .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's important . Uh I think th this is device which which has a learning curve . Um novice users u use this device as uh normal users use uh a c a remote control . And after a while they start to develop uh some skills in the the voice recognition functions , and then they will not use this dial as often . But other users who are new to this device need something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They n they need to understand what {disfmarker} uh how to change channels and uh change the volume , so it's easier for them", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could could I see the scroll bar as uh as as a sort of shortcut ? A a and the voice recognition as well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe so . Yes , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th maybe you could uh could uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it's it's another approach , it's more that our um {gap} . {vocalsound} There are there are many ways of doing uh things uh on such a device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's it's quite easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , good . And and the case is is rubber ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , rubber ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Plastic or rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} There are plastic or rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh the colouring ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yellow with uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} with with grey or black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "grey or black or something like that . Whatever cost uh cost uh the least . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'll we'll come to that later . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay . Anything else to add or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} Uh maybe we should uh think about these buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , you could use two of them to programme the um channels on the two channel button ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , but it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause you have to assign two channel {disfmarker} new channels .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but these are tasks that are only executed once , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M uh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or not ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M m but maybe you do want a programme button to uh for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well okay . Okay , yeah , that's right . Or something li like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And a button for disabling the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it {disfmarker} you'd disable it with a little beep and and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but o okay , that that's not really really important .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's the basic idea , yeah . Of our prototype .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The basic {disfmarker} okay . Okay . Um you thought of some evaluation crit criteria ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh my name is not name", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You are nameless . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well , I used the {gap} {disfmarker} the uh {gap} documents . And these uh were the most important criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is it spongy ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It should be . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that's uh how the fashion guys uh state it . Fancy look and feel . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So just walk through it step by step . I mean , is it fancy , everything {disfmarker} I believe uh I believe it's fancy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well appar", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I believe it's fancy too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but apparently uh we shouldn't evaluate yet .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this {disfmarker} these are the cr uh the criteria .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think these are the most important criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the then we'll switch to my presentation . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The production costs . The costs are not under {disfmarker} Can I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um this is the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twenty two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's w way above um uh above the the the twelve Euro fifty .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yikes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what makes it very expensive is uh for example the solar cell . So I guess we should skip that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well it's very expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's not that important .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why does the price and and the s oh , one uh exa", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . The number of uh {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um well , this is what I would call our luxury model . Um if you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and does it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if you look at the uh w w w what we could do to make it more um {vocalsound} to make it {vocalsound} just between the twelve Euro fifty , um then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , um by not using the voice recognition feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's uh it's a four Euro uh addition to the price .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Yeah , I believe {disfmarker} Uh , push-button , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It makes it the thirteen {disfmarker} yeah . Push-buttons are {disfmarker} buttons are are not the most expensive , but do add extra cost .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker} yeah , th this design is not um within our price model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm afraid it's not complete . Because we use spec uh specic uh special materials , the last item . And you have not added one item there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's c way too expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's still too expensive , yeah . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's that's only for the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I guess if we leave the {disfmarker} if we leave this one out , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So the button we can use plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh maybe not use the special form .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the pla uh {disfmarker} And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas uh instead of rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It becomes a very dull remote control , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's the board decision . Um {disfmarker} And um {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , b basically it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in uh an enhanced case with these dull functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I know . Maybe we should look at an {disfmarker} uh focus on another uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Type of m maybe another market segment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , m uh maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy uh uh um basic", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh m maximise the profits", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} maybe that's better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we could uh {disfmarker} we should go for straight and simple ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but that's not what uh has been asked .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we should kick the board's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Although I think we {disfmarker} yeah , but we could still make uh a remote control that ap uh um applies um more to young people uh by giving it another colour already .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so it is possible to make uh uh a device that attracts a little bit more to young people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um but uh I agree it's it's not a fancy high-tech uh device . Definitely not , no . {vocalsound} It's not that innovative .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or however you s pronounce that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , too bad . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um so , okay . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Oh ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is the wrong one . So uh that means redesign . {vocalsound} We do not have the time o uh now to to redesign the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} but we can evaluate the process and um uh uh the satisfaction on how things went . Um I'm not sure if we need to evaluate uh the device first . I guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um well , since we're not gonna manufacture it anyway {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We l we can learn . Yeah . Yeah . I agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it fancy ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I d it is it is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yay . Is it ? Is it fancy ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um the yellow rubber , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You like the rubber , uh Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm into it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's not that fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I'll I'll I'll give it a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean I think uh {disfmarker} I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing {disfmarker} the casing . It would be even more {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You like tita {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh , you really like titanium . I'm I'm into it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a flavour as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It has flavour . Yes , that's right . {vocalsound} You should taste it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Right . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but but it {disfmarker} but that's fancy in the way um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean fancy has has a lot of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It has to do with fashion , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's trendy trendy , fun {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And w", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , w what they want {disfmarker} wanted was uh colours and soft materials .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So in that way {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it's fancy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It applies . It {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , just {vocalsound} give it a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's not the ultimate uh fancy two , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think I th I think it would have been {disfmarker} I would have think {disfmarker} uh it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's sti that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Looking at the user uh needs , we only uh don't {disfmarker} we don't have the double-curved case . We w we do have uh the rubber , we do have the colours . That's two out of three . So I believe uh we are close uh to two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I agree too . It's okay . We did {gap} {disfmarker} yes , we did good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , and uh was it innovative ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "with the voice recognition feature and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's not in it . Ov or can we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , we are evaluating this this uh design now . This prototype .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , let's let's {disfmarker} this product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I I I think it is . I think it's innovative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And the scroll uh wheel . The solar {disfmarker} not many remotes have the solar , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic uh energy source , but it's it's way too {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That would have been a thrill .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh also a uh two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh it's a two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it easy to use ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not sure . {vocalsound} I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . Well , hard {disfmarker} it's not for the for the e for the elderly . They won't use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , but there are two parts in this remote control . What you see here is is the basic part . Everybody can use it , so that's easy to use .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's for a novice user . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . So in that in that way it is advanced ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I think it's easy to use for for both uh types of users .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} I think a three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} It's maybe {disfmarker} it's not very uh easy for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wouldn't give it more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I'm doubting {disfmarker} doubting as well . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the p the most important function is easy to use . The the zapping , channel switching , volume . But the more advanced functions are probably a bit harder .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? I mean ease of use um does not only apply to the most basic functions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the uh it's it's overall . Is the device easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . You're right in that , but I {gap} {disfmarker} I guess uh an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because he is already {disfmarker} he or she is already an advanced user .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "After all , I think {disfmarker} personally I would give a two . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Roo , a three ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good question . Uh I'll go uh for the two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , it's two , two and three . Two threes . So that's ten .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I could make it e easy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you make it a four it will be three in general .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's w No , two and a half .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If he makes it a four . Not a three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Six and four . Six and four is ten . Divided by four is two and a half . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Darn . Nee .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ? Huh ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A seven , a three {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A four and a three together .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Four ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have a two , he has a two . Three ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "two , two , three {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And a three ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I haven't said anything yet .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nee . I know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . Divided by four is two point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Divided by four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes . So if you want to have the conclusion as a three {disfmarker} three . Then you would make a four . If you fill out a four {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I'm filling in a three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's not even {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Does it {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} so it will be a two point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But that's not possible to fill in ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , it is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so we have to round it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is it easy to find ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I have a veto . {vocalsound} Exactly . It's not about the content , it's about {disfmarker} okay , um is it easy to f Yeah , definitely .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we haven't re uh re uh really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it most definitely is {disfmarker} it's very easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , or beeps or {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Maybe {disfmarker} Uh I I think I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm here , I'm here . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "something like that . Maybe you have to uh programme it once , so to that l respond to uh a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . So something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even without it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , I th", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we should not uh stay too long on this subject uh because of the time , but I personally give it a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , me too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Me too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , well . The feel of the remote control is spongy . Well , uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it can't be more spongy . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it can be . There are cases um in which the outside casing is {disfmarker} um can be {disfmarker} uh how d how do you prono is is moldable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Was it one of our options ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's not one of our option ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No okay , but but", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , in the in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but when you look in the market , when you look {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this this was a most spongy option . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "for the options given , it's the most spongy one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that's not that's not uh what they are talking about , I think . Because we compare all these uh characteristics {disfmarker} characteristics with uh market {disfmarker} uh with with the real market .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So there are uh remote controls out there which are a lot more spongy . They're out there . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} They're out there . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , but it's not good enough ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'll give it a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it's a two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} I wan I'll take one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You take one ? What do you give it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig uh a number . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because we need to go on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} for the time .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , if I give it a one there'll be one hell of a calculation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I'll just give it a two and make this a one point five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no no . Uh I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The remote control offers enough features .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the basic layout doesn't offem {disfmarker} offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Basically it's it's completely programmable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , depends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can add very m much functionality by uh using the voice recognition mode .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's quite advanced .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What what we didn't talk about is um uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {vocalsound} it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's {disfmarker} If you uh ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is {disfmarker} it has all the features um a normal remote has .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh depends on what you uh implement in the speech feat", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Bec because you can um {disfmarker} we didn't talk about it , but you do have uh remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you place a a regular uh remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the uh the um {gap} {disfmarker} the the signals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Has uh the signals sent to it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Signal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you could uh uh uh enter any comment you like , as long it's able to {disfmarker} as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . So I think th this uh this is uh a a remote control with a very high level of features .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Absolutely .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Although there are i a few buttons , but the inside is is quite uh advanced .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . But that {disfmarker} that's its power , I guess , because uh a regular programmable uh remote control contains , well , uh really a lot of buttons . At at least uh forty buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's it's quite s complicated to get uh to get used to . And this is quite s simple .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can use your voice to to programme it . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , um let's give it a number . I'll give it uh a one . For for the {disfmarker} for this t uh type of market , I think it's a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll give a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I'll give it a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think think a one , 'cause {gap} v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . I I've {disfmarker} I think we've uh succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So high quality , low acceptance .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The product is is is uh b high qua uh has a high quality and and is uh advanced . But {vocalsound} whether or not our clients are are um willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is {disfmarker} well , is not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "D do you agree ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I agree . I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe even because it doesn't look advanced .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe we should have a radar uh {vocalsound} function . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we could {disfmarker} couldn't uh {disfmarker} what what's the selling price ? Fifty ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh twenty five . And costs were twelve fifty .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even now , if only our production costs w {vocalsound} uh were exceeded the double , Think . Production cost was {disfmarker} were t uh was twenty two ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh {gap} selling price uh would be uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "M about fifty Euros .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite ex", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's price , but w w", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , uh a Phillips remote control , y you pay uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . It's quite expensive , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I kn I know uh from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bu but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are uh remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , but you can you c Yes , but you can learn this thing , all these functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's easier to use because those uh remote controls don't offer voice recognition", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and this one does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think it's worth its price .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um you had an overall rating . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} with these ratings uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's counting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it's about one point five . Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "should be about one point s seven ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Four six seven eight .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nine divided by six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Um we'll go further on with the the rest of the evaluation . About the project itself , not about the product . Um {disfmarker} What did you think about uh the process , the project process ? Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Try to translate that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Any any other {disfmarker} Uh , Roo ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ye", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The process was good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But w um we weren't aware of the prices of the costs .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and that was the the big deal . I if we knew that before , we c we could have made", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Actually , we had {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the the choice between {gap} what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Better decision .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We had we had too little information actually .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} And uh um the the the {disfmarker} well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too {disfmarker} the the choice of components was way too narrow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Less . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So there was not really a process of uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we could we we could be {disfmarker} we could've been creative . But um it was tempered by the choice of components and the the price .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The prices .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , in the first meeting we we already were very creative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We we thought of possibilities {vocalsound} who are not possible uh with the the current uh offer of uh manufacturing components . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're tempered by that , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I agree .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You agree , okay . Uh leadership .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fantastic . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , Roo's on for his promotion . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we're a good team .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think so too , it's it's it's uh of course a laboratory environment . I missed it um to be able to contact you in between and uh say uh , hey Roo uh {gap} . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I tried once , but that was not allowed . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but but si uh w w w {gap} {disfmarker} when taken in account the the situation , uh I think we performed pretty well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the means , the SMARTboard , the digital pen . Did you like 'em ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh . The digital pen was okay , but SMARTboard was really bad .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because of the response", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Response", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The response is very slow", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and the possibilities are very limited . It's not accurate .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh it it has {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah , it's not accurate . The p the pointing of the pen is not um the place where it it writes its {disfmarker} um uh where it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Draws .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , where it draws . It's uh {disfmarker} the drawing on on the b on the board is {gap} r right from the pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it it had to be um better aligned , or what's the word ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You to take in account that your {disfmarker} you m", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} it needs to be calibrateds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's too slow {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it was calibrated just before this meeting . Uh the one before , the third meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh it's not the calibration ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it's the thing itself , I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , w uh did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not at all .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not really .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I thought it was quite a handy uh thing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "although I would like to see um O_C_R_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If it has O_C_R_ {vocalsound} , uh I think uh I would use , but uh I I just uh took notes for myself and and and that's it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It w it w yeah . It was necessary for me to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To digitise them .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because if I want something on the computer , I just type it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I type faster than I write .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think it's a great solution for uh for uh a known problem , uh writing down some notes , some some inf uh information , and then um forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy {disfmarker} it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's a good product . I only think it's th the the shape of the pen is too big .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's not quite uh ergonomic . Eco ergonomic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Economic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um {disfmarker} What w Uh Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , you can't really decide . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} can't say much about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I missed a feature to easily select uh a slide and uh distribute it to the laptops . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , or the other way around .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or the other way around , that you could show {disfmarker} but m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But y you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite what PowerPoint does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you save this image , you can open it in your shared work folder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's almost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but we couldn't use that feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I missed it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We weren't able to do that . At least the {disfmarker} um I wasn't explained how to do such a th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {gap} . A and the function of of filling an an uh an oval or an an object .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "An object , yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's not possible {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The drawing cap capabilities are very limited .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and uh w you were {disfmarker} when you're using uh Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , uh which you can use for drawing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And a lot of these buttons don't appear here . So it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it looks like paint actually .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so y it {disfmarker} it's not even as advanced as paint .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not not uh n not {gap} way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite uh limited .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh no . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , the project is evaluated . Um but , well , we need to redesign uh the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Oh , very good , celebration .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Celebrate", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pop uh pop up the champagne . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was a privilege working with you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you're dismissed . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think we are uh ready .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "To private rooms ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I see some action over there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Private room , Roo . That sounds quite scary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , let's find uh the way to {gap} . {vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} uh we're done , we're finished , {gap} I believe . So , are there any more cycles in this process ? I think not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't believe so . Well , maybe we'd {disfmarker} get an email . Thank you for your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um how much time did we get for this meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Forty minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And how much time is left ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A minute or or ten maybe . M", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ten minutes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , ten or five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , we can uh redesign our uh {disfmarker} Uh I would like to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . A simple , dull , uh one-coloured box .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And no added value . At all .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you see the problem ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "y you can't continue your uh your line . Well , it's fluffy alright . {vocalsound} Spongy . A giraffe ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What is that ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's a giraffe eating a {disfmarker} eating leaves from a tree .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's blue tongue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In interesting design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} This is a new model . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you're actually promoting Bluetooth . Or blue tongue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Blue tongue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh uh it it does uh have a natural uh feeling .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's spongy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} That is uh {disfmarker} it's a new feature next to Bluetooth to um disable all Bluetooth devices . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Blue tongue .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Let's wrap it up .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we're done here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Gentlemen , thank you for your cooperation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you Mister manager . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Now , {vocalsound} let's have uh a bottle of champagne .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . Leave it here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's alright . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "That's the same as uh on the top of it uh with the the round uh button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh we don't uh we don't uh {disfmarker} we do think it's um well {disfmarker} what if with ease of use , w which prefers the {disfmarker} which the the customer of the user prefers .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's important . Uh I think th this is device which which has a learning curve . Um novice users u use this device as uh normal users use uh a c a remote control . And after a while they start to develop uh some skills in the the voice recognition functions , and then they will not use this dial as often . But other users who are new to this device need something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They n they need to understand what {disfmarker} uh how to change channels and uh change the volume , so it's easier for them", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could could I see the scroll bar as uh as as a sort of shortcut ? A a and the voice recognition as well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe so . Yes , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th maybe you could uh could uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it's it's another approach , it's more that our um {gap} . {vocalsound} There are there are many ways of doing uh things uh on such a device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's it's quite easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , good . And and the case is is rubber ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , rubber ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Plastic or rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} There are plastic or rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh the colouring ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yellow with uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} with with grey or black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "grey or black or something like that . Whatever cost uh cost uh the least . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'll we'll come to that later . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay . Anything else to add or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} Uh maybe we should uh think about these buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , you could use two of them to programme the um channels on the two channel button ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , but it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause you have to assign two channel {disfmarker} new channels .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but these are tasks that are only executed once , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M uh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or not ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M m but maybe you do want a programme button to uh for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well okay . Okay , yeah , that's right . Or something li like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And a button for disabling the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it {disfmarker} you'd disable it with a little beep and and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but o okay , that that's not really really important .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's the basic idea , yeah . Of our prototype .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The basic {disfmarker} okay . Okay . Um you thought of some evaluation crit criteria ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh my name is not name", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You are nameless . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well , I used the {gap} {disfmarker} the uh {gap} documents . And these uh were the most important criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is it spongy ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It should be . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that's uh how the fashion guys uh state it . Fancy look and feel . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So just walk through it step by step . I mean , is it fancy , everything {disfmarker} I believe uh I believe it's fancy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well appar", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I believe it's fancy too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but apparently uh we shouldn't evaluate yet .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this {disfmarker} these are the cr uh the criteria .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think these are the most important criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the then we'll switch to my presentation . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The production costs . The costs are not under {disfmarker} Can I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um this is the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twenty two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's w way above um uh above the the the twelve Euro fifty .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yikes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what makes it very expensive is uh for example the solar cell . So I guess we should skip that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well it's very expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's not that important .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why does the price and and the s oh , one uh exa", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . The number of uh {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um well , this is what I would call our luxury model . Um if you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and does it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if you look at the uh w w w what we could do to make it more um {vocalsound} to make it {vocalsound} just between the twelve Euro fifty , um then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , um by not using the voice recognition feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's uh it's a four Euro uh addition to the price .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Yeah , I believe {disfmarker} Uh , push-button , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It makes it the thirteen {disfmarker} yeah . Push-buttons are {disfmarker} buttons are are not the most expensive , but do add extra cost .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker} yeah , th this design is not um within our price model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm afraid it's not complete . Because we use spec uh specic uh special materials , the last item . And you have not added one item there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's c way too expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's still too expensive , yeah . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's that's only for the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I guess if we leave the {disfmarker} if we leave this one out , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So the button we can use plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh maybe not use the special form .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the pla uh {disfmarker} And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas uh instead of rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It becomes a very dull remote control , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's the board decision . Um {disfmarker} And um {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , b basically it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in uh an enhanced case with these dull functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I know . Maybe we should look at an {disfmarker} uh focus on another uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Type of m maybe another market segment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , m uh maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy uh uh um basic", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh m maximise the profits", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} maybe that's better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we could uh {disfmarker} we should go for straight and simple ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but that's not what uh has been asked .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we should kick the board's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Although I think we {disfmarker} yeah , but we could still make uh a remote control that ap uh um applies um more to young people uh by giving it another colour already .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so it is possible to make uh uh a device that attracts a little bit more to young people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um but uh I agree it's it's not a fancy high-tech uh device . Definitely not , no . {vocalsound} It's not that innovative .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or however you s pronounce that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , too bad . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um so , okay . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Oh ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is the wrong one . So uh that means redesign . {vocalsound} We do not have the time o uh now to to redesign the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} but we can evaluate the process and um uh uh the satisfaction on how things went . Um I'm not sure if we need to evaluate uh the device first . I guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um well , since we're not gonna manufacture it anyway {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We l we can learn . Yeah . Yeah . I agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it fancy ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I d it is it is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yay . Is it ? Is it fancy ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um the yellow rubber , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You like the rubber , uh Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm into it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's not that fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I'll I'll I'll give it a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean I think uh {disfmarker} I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing {disfmarker} the casing . It would be even more {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You like tita {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh , you really like titanium . I'm I'm into it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a flavour as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It has flavour . Yes , that's right . {vocalsound} You should taste it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Right . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but but it {disfmarker} but that's fancy in the way um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean fancy has has a lot of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It has to do with fashion , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's trendy trendy , fun {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And w", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , w what they want {disfmarker} wanted was uh colours and soft materials .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So in that way {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it's fancy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It applies . It {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , just {vocalsound} give it a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's not the ultimate uh fancy two , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think I th I think it would have been {disfmarker} I would have think {disfmarker} uh it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's sti that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Looking at the user uh needs , we only uh don't {disfmarker} we don't have the double-curved case . We w we do have uh the rubber , we do have the colours . That's two out of three . So I believe uh we are close uh to two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I agree too . It's okay . We did {gap} {disfmarker} yes , we did good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , and uh was it innovative ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "with the voice recognition feature and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's not in it . Ov or can we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , we are evaluating this this uh design now . This prototype .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , let's let's {disfmarker} this product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I I I think it is . I think it's innovative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And the scroll uh wheel . The solar {disfmarker} not many remotes have the solar , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic uh energy source , but it's it's way too {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That would have been a thrill .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh also a uh two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh it's a two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it easy to use ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not sure . {vocalsound} I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . Well , hard {disfmarker} it's not for the for the e for the elderly . They won't use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , but there are two parts in this remote control . What you see here is is the basic part . Everybody can use it , so that's easy to use .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's for a novice user . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . So in that in that way it is advanced ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I think it's easy to use for for both uh types of users .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} I think a three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} It's maybe {disfmarker} it's not very uh easy for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wouldn't give it more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I'm doubting {disfmarker} doubting as well . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the p the most important function is easy to use . The the zapping , channel switching , volume . But the more advanced functions are probably a bit harder .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? I mean ease of use um does not only apply to the most basic functions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the uh it's it's overall . Is the device easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . You're right in that , but I {gap} {disfmarker} I guess uh an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because he is already {disfmarker} he or she is already an advanced user .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "After all , I think {disfmarker} personally I would give a two . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Roo , a three ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good question . Uh I'll go uh for the two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , it's two , two and three . Two threes . So that's ten .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I could make it e easy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you make it a four it will be three in general .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's w No , two and a half .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If he makes it a four . Not a three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Six and four . Six and four is ten . Divided by four is two and a half . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Darn . Nee .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ? Huh ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A seven , a three {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A four and a three together .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Four ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have a two , he has a two . Three ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "two , two , three {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And a three ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I haven't said anything yet .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nee . I know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . Divided by four is two point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Divided by four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes . So if you want to have the conclusion as a three {disfmarker} three . Then you would make a four . If you fill out a four {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I'm filling in a three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's not even {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Does it {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} so it will be a two point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But that's not possible to fill in ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , it is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so we have to round it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is it easy to find ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I have a veto . {vocalsound} Exactly . It's not about the content , it's about {disfmarker} okay , um is it easy to f Yeah , definitely .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we haven't re uh re uh really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it most definitely is {disfmarker} it's very easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , or beeps or {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Maybe {disfmarker} Uh I I think I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm here , I'm here . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "something like that . Maybe you have to uh programme it once , so to that l respond to uh a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . So something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even without it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , I th", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we should not uh stay too long on this subject uh because of the time , but I personally give it a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , me too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Me too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , well . The feel of the remote control is spongy . Well , uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it can't be more spongy . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it can be . There are cases um in which the outside casing is {disfmarker} um can be {disfmarker} uh how d how do you prono is is moldable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Was it one of our options ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's not one of our option ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No okay , but but", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , in the in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but when you look in the market , when you look {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this this was a most spongy option . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "for the options given , it's the most spongy one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that's not that's not uh what they are talking about , I think . Because we compare all these uh characteristics {disfmarker} characteristics with uh market {disfmarker} uh with with the real market .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So there are uh remote controls out there which are a lot more spongy . They're out there . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} They're out there . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , but it's not good enough ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'll give it a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it's a two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} I wan I'll take one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You take one ? What do you give it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig uh a number . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because we need to go on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} for the time .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , if I give it a one there'll be one hell of a calculation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I'll just give it a two and make this a one point five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no no . Uh I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The remote control offers enough features .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the basic layout doesn't offem {disfmarker} offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Basically it's it's completely programmable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , depends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can add very m much functionality by uh using the voice recognition mode .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's quite advanced .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What what we didn't talk about is um uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {vocalsound} it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's {disfmarker} If you uh ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is {disfmarker} it has all the features um a normal remote has .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh depends on what you uh implement in the speech feat", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Bec because you can um {disfmarker} we didn't talk about it , but you do have uh remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you place a a regular uh remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the uh the um {gap} {disfmarker} the the signals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Has uh the signals sent to it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Signal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you could uh uh uh enter any comment you like , as long it's able to {disfmarker} as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . So I think th this uh this is uh a a remote control with a very high level of features .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Absolutely .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Although there are i a few buttons , but the inside is is quite uh advanced .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . But that {disfmarker} that's its power , I guess , because uh a regular programmable uh remote control contains , well , uh really a lot of buttons . At at least uh forty buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's it's quite s complicated to get uh to get used to . And this is quite s simple .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can use your voice to to programme it . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , um let's give it a number . I'll give it uh a one . For for the {disfmarker} for this t uh type of market , I think it's a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll give a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I'll give it a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think think a one , 'cause {gap} v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . I I've {disfmarker} I think we've uh succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So high quality , low acceptance .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The product is is is uh b high qua uh has a high quality and and is uh advanced . But {vocalsound} whether or not our clients are are um willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is {disfmarker} well , is not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "D do you agree ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I agree . I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe even because it doesn't look advanced .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe we should have a radar uh {vocalsound} function . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we could {disfmarker} couldn't uh {disfmarker} what what's the selling price ? Fifty ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh twenty five . And costs were twelve fifty .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even now , if only our production costs w {vocalsound} uh were exceeded the double , Think . Production cost was {disfmarker} were t uh was twenty two ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh {gap} selling price uh would be uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "M about fifty Euros .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite ex", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's price , but w w", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , uh a Phillips remote control , y you pay uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . It's quite expensive , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I kn I know uh from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bu but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are uh remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , but you can you c Yes , but you can learn this thing , all these functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's easier to use because those uh remote controls don't offer voice recognition", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and this one does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think it's worth its price .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um you had an overall rating . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} with these ratings uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's counting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it's about one point five . Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "should be about one point s seven ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Four six seven eight .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nine divided by six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Um we'll go further on with the the rest of the evaluation . About the project itself , not about the product . Um {disfmarker} What did you think about uh the process , the project process ? Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Try to translate that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Any any other {disfmarker} Uh , Roo ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ye", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The process was good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But w um we weren't aware of the prices of the costs .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and that was the the big deal . I if we knew that before , we c we could have made", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Actually , we had {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the the choice between {gap} what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Better decision .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We had we had too little information actually .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} And uh um the the the {disfmarker} well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too {disfmarker} the the choice of components was way too narrow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Less . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So there was not really a process of uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we could we we could be {disfmarker} we could've been creative . But um it was tempered by the choice of components and the the price .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The prices .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , in the first meeting we we already were very creative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We we thought of possibilities {vocalsound} who are not possible uh with the the current uh offer of uh manufacturing components . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're tempered by that , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I agree .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You agree , okay . Uh leadership .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fantastic . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , Roo's on for his promotion . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we're a good team .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think so too , it's it's it's uh of course a laboratory environment . I missed it um to be able to contact you in between and uh say uh , hey Roo uh {gap} . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I tried once , but that was not allowed . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but but si uh w w w {gap} {disfmarker} when taken in account the the situation , uh I think we performed pretty well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the means , the SMARTboard , the digital pen . Did you like 'em ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh . The digital pen was okay , but SMARTboard was really bad .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because of the response", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Response", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The response is very slow", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and the possibilities are very limited . It's not accurate .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh it it has {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah , it's not accurate . The p the pointing of the pen is not um the place where it it writes its {disfmarker} um uh where it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Draws .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , where it draws . It's uh {disfmarker} the drawing on on the b on the board is {gap} r right from the pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it it had to be um better aligned , or what's the word ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You to take in account that your {disfmarker} you m", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} it needs to be calibrateds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's too slow {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it was calibrated just before this meeting . Uh the one before , the third meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh it's not the calibration ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it's the thing itself , I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , w uh did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not at all .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not really .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I thought it was quite a handy uh thing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "although I would like to see um O_C_R_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If it has O_C_R_ {vocalsound} , uh I think uh I would use , but uh I I just uh took notes for myself and and and that's it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It w it w yeah . It was necessary for me to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To digitise them .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because if I want something on the computer , I just type it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I type faster than I write .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think it's a great solution for uh for uh a known problem , uh writing down some notes , some some inf uh information , and then um forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy {disfmarker} it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's a good product . I only think it's th the the shape of the pen is too big .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's not quite uh ergonomic . Eco ergonomic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Economic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um {disfmarker} What w Uh Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , you can't really decide . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} can't say much about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I missed a feature to easily select uh a slide and uh distribute it to the laptops . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , or the other way around .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or the other way around , that you could show {disfmarker} but m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But y you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite what PowerPoint does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you save this image , you can open it in your shared work folder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's almost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but we couldn't use that feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I missed it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We weren't able to do that . At least the {disfmarker} um I wasn't explained how to do such a th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {gap} . A and the function of of filling an an uh an oval or an an object .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "An object , yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's not possible {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The drawing cap capabilities are very limited .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and uh w you were {disfmarker} when you're using uh Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , uh which you can use for drawing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And a lot of these buttons don't appear here . So it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it looks like paint actually .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so y it {disfmarker} it's not even as advanced as paint .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not not uh n not {gap} way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite uh limited .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh no . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , the project is evaluated . Um but , well , we need to redesign uh the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Oh , very good , celebration .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Celebrate", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pop uh pop up the champagne . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was a privilege working with you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you're dismissed . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think we are uh ready .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "To private rooms ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I see some action over there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Private room , Roo . That sounds quite scary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , let's find uh the way to {gap} . {vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} uh we're done , we're finished , {gap} I believe . So , are there any more cycles in this process ? I think not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't believe so . Well , maybe we'd {disfmarker} get an email . Thank you for your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um how much time did we get for this meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Forty minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And how much time is left ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A minute or or ten maybe . M", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ten minutes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , ten or five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , we can uh redesign our uh {disfmarker} Uh I would like to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . A simple , dull , uh one-coloured box .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And no added value . At all .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you see the problem ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "y you can't continue your uh your line . Well , it's fluffy alright . {vocalsound} Spongy . A giraffe ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What is that ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's a giraffe eating a {disfmarker} eating leaves from a tree .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's blue tongue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In interesting design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} This is a new model . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you're actually promoting Bluetooth . Or blue tongue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Blue tongue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh uh it it does uh have a natural uh feeling .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's spongy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} That is uh {disfmarker} it's a new feature next to Bluetooth to um disable all Bluetooth devices . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Blue tongue .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Let's wrap it up .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we're done here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Gentlemen , thank you for your cooperation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you Mister manager . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Now , {vocalsound} let's have uh a bottle of champagne .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . Leave it here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's alright . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "That's the same as uh on the top of it uh with the the round uh button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh we don't uh we don't uh {disfmarker} we do think it's um well {disfmarker} what if with ease of use , w which prefers the {disfmarker} which the the customer of the user prefers .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's important . Uh I think th this is device which which has a learning curve . Um novice users u use this device as uh normal users use uh a c a remote control . And after a while they start to develop uh some skills in the the voice recognition functions , and then they will not use this dial as often . But other users who are new to this device need something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They n they need to understand what {disfmarker} uh how to change channels and uh change the volume , so it's easier for them", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could could I see the scroll bar as uh as as a sort of shortcut ? A a and the voice recognition as well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe so . Yes , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th maybe you could uh could uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it's it's another approach , it's more that our um {gap} . {vocalsound} There are there are many ways of doing uh things uh on such a device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's it's quite easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , good . And and the case is is rubber ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , rubber ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Plastic or rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} There are plastic or rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh the colouring ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yellow with uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} with with grey or black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "grey or black or something like that . Whatever cost uh cost uh the least . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'll we'll come to that later . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay . Anything else to add or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} Uh maybe we should uh think about these buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , you could use two of them to programme the um channels on the two channel button ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , but it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause you have to assign two channel {disfmarker} new channels .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but these are tasks that are only executed once , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M uh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or not ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M m but maybe you do want a programme button to uh for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well okay . Okay , yeah , that's right . Or something li like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And a button for disabling the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it {disfmarker} you'd disable it with a little beep and and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but o okay , that that's not really really important .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's the basic idea , yeah . Of our prototype .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The basic {disfmarker} okay . Okay . Um you thought of some evaluation crit criteria ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh my name is not name", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You are nameless . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well , I used the {gap} {disfmarker} the uh {gap} documents . And these uh were the most important criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is it spongy ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It should be . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that's uh how the fashion guys uh state it . Fancy look and feel . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So just walk through it step by step . I mean , is it fancy , everything {disfmarker} I believe uh I believe it's fancy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well appar", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I believe it's fancy too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but apparently uh we shouldn't evaluate yet .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this {disfmarker} these are the cr uh the criteria .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think these are the most important criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the then we'll switch to my presentation . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The production costs . The costs are not under {disfmarker} Can I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um this is the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twenty two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's w way above um uh above the the the twelve Euro fifty .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yikes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what makes it very expensive is uh for example the solar cell . So I guess we should skip that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well it's very expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's not that important .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why does the price and and the s oh , one uh exa", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . The number of uh {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um well , this is what I would call our luxury model . Um if you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and does it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if you look at the uh w w w what we could do to make it more um {vocalsound} to make it {vocalsound} just between the twelve Euro fifty , um then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , um by not using the voice recognition feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's uh it's a four Euro uh addition to the price .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Yeah , I believe {disfmarker} Uh , push-button , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It makes it the thirteen {disfmarker} yeah . Push-buttons are {disfmarker} buttons are are not the most expensive , but do add extra cost .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker} yeah , th this design is not um within our price model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm afraid it's not complete . Because we use spec uh specic uh special materials , the last item . And you have not added one item there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's c way too expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's still too expensive , yeah . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's that's only for the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I guess if we leave the {disfmarker} if we leave this one out , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So the button we can use plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh maybe not use the special form .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the pla uh {disfmarker} And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas uh instead of rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It becomes a very dull remote control , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's the board decision . Um {disfmarker} And um {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , b basically it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in uh an enhanced case with these dull functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I know . Maybe we should look at an {disfmarker} uh focus on another uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Type of m maybe another market segment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , m uh maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy uh uh um basic", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh m maximise the profits", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} maybe that's better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we could uh {disfmarker} we should go for straight and simple ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but that's not what uh has been asked .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we should kick the board's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Although I think we {disfmarker} yeah , but we could still make uh a remote control that ap uh um applies um more to young people uh by giving it another colour already .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so it is possible to make uh uh a device that attracts a little bit more to young people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um but uh I agree it's it's not a fancy high-tech uh device . Definitely not , no . {vocalsound} It's not that innovative .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or however you s pronounce that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , too bad . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um so , okay . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Oh ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is the wrong one . So uh that means redesign . {vocalsound} We do not have the time o uh now to to redesign the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} but we can evaluate the process and um uh uh the satisfaction on how things went . Um I'm not sure if we need to evaluate uh the device first . I guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um well , since we're not gonna manufacture it anyway {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We l we can learn . Yeah . Yeah . I agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it fancy ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I d it is it is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yay . Is it ? Is it fancy ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um the yellow rubber , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You like the rubber , uh Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm into it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's not that fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I'll I'll I'll give it a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean I think uh {disfmarker} I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing {disfmarker} the casing . It would be even more {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You like tita {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh , you really like titanium . I'm I'm into it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a flavour as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It has flavour . Yes , that's right . {vocalsound} You should taste it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Right . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but but it {disfmarker} but that's fancy in the way um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean fancy has has a lot of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It has to do with fashion , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's trendy trendy , fun {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And w", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , w what they want {disfmarker} wanted was uh colours and soft materials .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So in that way {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it's fancy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It applies . It {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , just {vocalsound} give it a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's not the ultimate uh fancy two , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think I th I think it would have been {disfmarker} I would have think {disfmarker} uh it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's sti that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Looking at the user uh needs , we only uh don't {disfmarker} we don't have the double-curved case . We w we do have uh the rubber , we do have the colours . That's two out of three . So I believe uh we are close uh to two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I agree too . It's okay . We did {gap} {disfmarker} yes , we did good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , and uh was it innovative ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "with the voice recognition feature and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's not in it . Ov or can we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , we are evaluating this this uh design now . This prototype .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , let's let's {disfmarker} this product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I I I think it is . I think it's innovative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And the scroll uh wheel . The solar {disfmarker} not many remotes have the solar , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic uh energy source , but it's it's way too {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That would have been a thrill .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh also a uh two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh it's a two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it easy to use ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not sure . {vocalsound} I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . Well , hard {disfmarker} it's not for the for the e for the elderly . They won't use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , but there are two parts in this remote control . What you see here is is the basic part . Everybody can use it , so that's easy to use .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's for a novice user . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . So in that in that way it is advanced ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I think it's easy to use for for both uh types of users .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} I think a three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} It's maybe {disfmarker} it's not very uh easy for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wouldn't give it more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I'm doubting {disfmarker} doubting as well . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the p the most important function is easy to use . The the zapping , channel switching , volume . But the more advanced functions are probably a bit harder .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? I mean ease of use um does not only apply to the most basic functions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the uh it's it's overall . Is the device easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . You're right in that , but I {gap} {disfmarker} I guess uh an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because he is already {disfmarker} he or she is already an advanced user .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "After all , I think {disfmarker} personally I would give a two . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Roo , a three ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good question . Uh I'll go uh for the two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , it's two , two and three . Two threes . So that's ten .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I could make it e easy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you make it a four it will be three in general .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's w No , two and a half .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If he makes it a four . Not a three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Six and four . Six and four is ten . Divided by four is two and a half . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Darn . Nee .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ? Huh ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A seven , a three {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A four and a three together .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Four ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have a two , he has a two . Three ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "two , two , three {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And a three ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I haven't said anything yet .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nee . I know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . Divided by four is two point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Divided by four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes . So if you want to have the conclusion as a three {disfmarker} three . Then you would make a four . If you fill out a four {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I'm filling in a three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's not even {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Does it {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} so it will be a two point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But that's not possible to fill in ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , it is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so we have to round it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is it easy to find ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I have a veto . {vocalsound} Exactly . It's not about the content , it's about {disfmarker} okay , um is it easy to f Yeah , definitely .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we haven't re uh re uh really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it most definitely is {disfmarker} it's very easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , or beeps or {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Maybe {disfmarker} Uh I I think I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm here , I'm here . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "something like that . Maybe you have to uh programme it once , so to that l respond to uh a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . So something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even without it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , I th", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we should not uh stay too long on this subject uh because of the time , but I personally give it a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , me too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Me too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , well . The feel of the remote control is spongy . Well , uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it can't be more spongy . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it can be . There are cases um in which the outside casing is {disfmarker} um can be {disfmarker} uh how d how do you prono is is moldable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Was it one of our options ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's not one of our option ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No okay , but but", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , in the in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but when you look in the market , when you look {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this this was a most spongy option . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "for the options given , it's the most spongy one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that's not that's not uh what they are talking about , I think . Because we compare all these uh characteristics {disfmarker} characteristics with uh market {disfmarker} uh with with the real market .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So there are uh remote controls out there which are a lot more spongy . They're out there . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} They're out there . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , but it's not good enough ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'll give it a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it's a two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} I wan I'll take one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You take one ? What do you give it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig uh a number . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because we need to go on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} for the time .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , if I give it a one there'll be one hell of a calculation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I'll just give it a two and make this a one point five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no no . Uh I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The remote control offers enough features .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the basic layout doesn't offem {disfmarker} offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Basically it's it's completely programmable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , depends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can add very m much functionality by uh using the voice recognition mode .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's quite advanced .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What what we didn't talk about is um uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {vocalsound} it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's {disfmarker} If you uh ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is {disfmarker} it has all the features um a normal remote has .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh depends on what you uh implement in the speech feat", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Bec because you can um {disfmarker} we didn't talk about it , but you do have uh remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you place a a regular uh remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the uh the um {gap} {disfmarker} the the signals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Has uh the signals sent to it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Signal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you could uh uh uh enter any comment you like , as long it's able to {disfmarker} as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . So I think th this uh this is uh a a remote control with a very high level of features .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Absolutely .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Although there are i a few buttons , but the inside is is quite uh advanced .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . But that {disfmarker} that's its power , I guess , because uh a regular programmable uh remote control contains , well , uh really a lot of buttons . At at least uh forty buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's it's quite s complicated to get uh to get used to . And this is quite s simple .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can use your voice to to programme it . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , um let's give it a number . I'll give it uh a one . For for the {disfmarker} for this t uh type of market , I think it's a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll give a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I'll give it a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think think a one , 'cause {gap} v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . I I've {disfmarker} I think we've uh succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So high quality , low acceptance .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The product is is is uh b high qua uh has a high quality and and is uh advanced . But {vocalsound} whether or not our clients are are um willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is {disfmarker} well , is not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "D do you agree ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I agree . I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe even because it doesn't look advanced .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe we should have a radar uh {vocalsound} function . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we could {disfmarker} couldn't uh {disfmarker} what what's the selling price ? Fifty ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh twenty five . And costs were twelve fifty .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even now , if only our production costs w {vocalsound} uh were exceeded the double , Think . Production cost was {disfmarker} were t uh was twenty two ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh {gap} selling price uh would be uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "M about fifty Euros .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite ex", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's price , but w w", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , uh a Phillips remote control , y you pay uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . It's quite expensive , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I kn I know uh from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bu but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are uh remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , but you can you c Yes , but you can learn this thing , all these functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's easier to use because those uh remote controls don't offer voice recognition", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and this one does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think it's worth its price .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um you had an overall rating . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} with these ratings uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's counting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it's about one point five . Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "should be about one point s seven ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Four six seven eight .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nine divided by six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Um we'll go further on with the the rest of the evaluation . About the project itself , not about the product . Um {disfmarker} What did you think about uh the process , the project process ? Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Try to translate that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Any any other {disfmarker} Uh , Roo ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ye", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The process was good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But w um we weren't aware of the prices of the costs .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and that was the the big deal . I if we knew that before , we c we could have made", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Actually , we had {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the the choice between {gap} what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Better decision .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We had we had too little information actually .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} And uh um the the the {disfmarker} well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too {disfmarker} the the choice of components was way too narrow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Less . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So there was not really a process of uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we could we we could be {disfmarker} we could've been creative . But um it was tempered by the choice of components and the the price .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The prices .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , in the first meeting we we already were very creative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We we thought of possibilities {vocalsound} who are not possible uh with the the current uh offer of uh manufacturing components . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're tempered by that , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I agree .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You agree , okay . Uh leadership .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fantastic . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , Roo's on for his promotion . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we're a good team .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think so too , it's it's it's uh of course a laboratory environment . I missed it um to be able to contact you in between and uh say uh , hey Roo uh {gap} . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I tried once , but that was not allowed . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but but si uh w w w {gap} {disfmarker} when taken in account the the situation , uh I think we performed pretty well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the means , the SMARTboard , the digital pen . Did you like 'em ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh . The digital pen was okay , but SMARTboard was really bad .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because of the response", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Response", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The response is very slow", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and the possibilities are very limited . It's not accurate .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh it it has {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah , it's not accurate . The p the pointing of the pen is not um the place where it it writes its {disfmarker} um uh where it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Draws .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , where it draws . It's uh {disfmarker} the drawing on on the b on the board is {gap} r right from the pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it it had to be um better aligned , or what's the word ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You to take in account that your {disfmarker} you m", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} it needs to be calibrateds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's too slow {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it was calibrated just before this meeting . Uh the one before , the third meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh it's not the calibration ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it's the thing itself , I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , w uh did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not at all .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not really .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I thought it was quite a handy uh thing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "although I would like to see um O_C_R_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If it has O_C_R_ {vocalsound} , uh I think uh I would use , but uh I I just uh took notes for myself and and and that's it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It w it w yeah . It was necessary for me to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To digitise them .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because if I want something on the computer , I just type it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I type faster than I write .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think it's a great solution for uh for uh a known problem , uh writing down some notes , some some inf uh information , and then um forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy {disfmarker} it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's a good product . I only think it's th the the shape of the pen is too big .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's not quite uh ergonomic . Eco ergonomic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Economic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um {disfmarker} What w Uh Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , you can't really decide . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} can't say much about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I missed a feature to easily select uh a slide and uh distribute it to the laptops . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , or the other way around .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or the other way around , that you could show {disfmarker} but m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But y you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite what PowerPoint does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you save this image , you can open it in your shared work folder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's almost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but we couldn't use that feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I missed it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We weren't able to do that . At least the {disfmarker} um I wasn't explained how to do such a th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {gap} . A and the function of of filling an an uh an oval or an an object .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "An object , yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's not possible {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The drawing cap capabilities are very limited .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and uh w you were {disfmarker} when you're using uh Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , uh which you can use for drawing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And a lot of these buttons don't appear here . So it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it looks like paint actually .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so y it {disfmarker} it's not even as advanced as paint .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not not uh n not {gap} way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite uh limited .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh no . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , the project is evaluated . Um but , well , we need to redesign uh the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Oh , very good , celebration .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Celebrate", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pop uh pop up the champagne . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was a privilege working with you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you're dismissed . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think we are uh ready .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "To private rooms ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I see some action over there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Private room , Roo . That sounds quite scary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , let's find uh the way to {gap} . {vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} uh we're done , we're finished , {gap} I believe . So , are there any more cycles in this process ? I think not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't believe so . Well , maybe we'd {disfmarker} get an email . Thank you for your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um how much time did we get for this meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Forty minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And how much time is left ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A minute or or ten maybe . M", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ten minutes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , ten or five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , we can uh redesign our uh {disfmarker} Uh I would like to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . A simple , dull , uh one-coloured box .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And no added value . At all .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you see the problem ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "y you can't continue your uh your line . Well , it's fluffy alright . {vocalsound} Spongy . A giraffe ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What is that ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's a giraffe eating a {disfmarker} eating leaves from a tree .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's blue tongue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In interesting design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} This is a new model . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you're actually promoting Bluetooth . Or blue tongue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Blue tongue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh uh it it does uh have a natural uh feeling .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's spongy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} That is uh {disfmarker} it's a new feature next to Bluetooth to um disable all Bluetooth devices . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Blue tongue .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Let's wrap it up .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we're done here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Gentlemen , thank you for your cooperation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you Mister manager . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Now , {vocalsound} let's have uh a bottle of champagne .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . Leave it here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's alright . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "That's the same as uh on the top of it uh with the the round uh button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh we don't uh we don't uh {disfmarker} we do think it's um well {disfmarker} what if with ease of use , w which prefers the {disfmarker} which the the customer of the user prefers .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's important . Uh I think th this is device which which has a learning curve . Um novice users u use this device as uh normal users use uh a c a remote control . And after a while they start to develop uh some skills in the the voice recognition functions , and then they will not use this dial as often . But other users who are new to this device need something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They n they need to understand what {disfmarker} uh how to change channels and uh change the volume , so it's easier for them", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could could I see the scroll bar as uh as as a sort of shortcut ? A a and the voice recognition as well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe so . Yes , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th maybe you could uh could uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it's it's another approach , it's more that our um {gap} . {vocalsound} There are there are many ways of doing uh things uh on such a device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's it's quite easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , good . And and the case is is rubber ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , rubber ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Plastic or rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} There are plastic or rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh the colouring ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yellow with uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} with with grey or black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "grey or black or something like that . Whatever cost uh cost uh the least . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'll we'll come to that later . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay . Anything else to add or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} Uh maybe we should uh think about these buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , you could use two of them to programme the um channels on the two channel button ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , but it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause you have to assign two channel {disfmarker} new channels .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but these are tasks that are only executed once , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M uh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or not ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M m but maybe you do want a programme button to uh for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well okay . Okay , yeah , that's right . Or something li like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And a button for disabling the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it {disfmarker} you'd disable it with a little beep and and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but o okay , that that's not really really important .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's the basic idea , yeah . Of our prototype .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The basic {disfmarker} okay . Okay . Um you thought of some evaluation crit criteria ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh my name is not name", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You are nameless . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well , I used the {gap} {disfmarker} the uh {gap} documents . And these uh were the most important criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is it spongy ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It should be . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that's uh how the fashion guys uh state it . Fancy look and feel . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So just walk through it step by step . I mean , is it fancy , everything {disfmarker} I believe uh I believe it's fancy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well appar", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I believe it's fancy too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but apparently uh we shouldn't evaluate yet .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this {disfmarker} these are the cr uh the criteria .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think these are the most important criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the then we'll switch to my presentation . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The production costs . The costs are not under {disfmarker} Can I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um this is the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twenty two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's w way above um uh above the the the twelve Euro fifty .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yikes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what makes it very expensive is uh for example the solar cell . So I guess we should skip that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well it's very expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's not that important .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why does the price and and the s oh , one uh exa", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . The number of uh {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um well , this is what I would call our luxury model . Um if you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and does it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if you look at the uh w w w what we could do to make it more um {vocalsound} to make it {vocalsound} just between the twelve Euro fifty , um then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , um by not using the voice recognition feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's uh it's a four Euro uh addition to the price .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Yeah , I believe {disfmarker} Uh , push-button , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It makes it the thirteen {disfmarker} yeah . Push-buttons are {disfmarker} buttons are are not the most expensive , but do add extra cost .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker} yeah , th this design is not um within our price model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm afraid it's not complete . Because we use spec uh specic uh special materials , the last item . And you have not added one item there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's c way too expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's still too expensive , yeah . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's that's only for the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I guess if we leave the {disfmarker} if we leave this one out , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So the button we can use plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh maybe not use the special form .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the pla uh {disfmarker} And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas uh instead of rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It becomes a very dull remote control , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's the board decision . Um {disfmarker} And um {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , b basically it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in uh an enhanced case with these dull functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I know . Maybe we should look at an {disfmarker} uh focus on another uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Type of m maybe another market segment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , m uh maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy uh uh um basic", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh m maximise the profits", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} maybe that's better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we could uh {disfmarker} we should go for straight and simple ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but that's not what uh has been asked .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we should kick the board's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Although I think we {disfmarker} yeah , but we could still make uh a remote control that ap uh um applies um more to young people uh by giving it another colour already .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so it is possible to make uh uh a device that attracts a little bit more to young people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um but uh I agree it's it's not a fancy high-tech uh device . Definitely not , no . {vocalsound} It's not that innovative .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or however you s pronounce that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , too bad . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um so , okay . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Oh ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is the wrong one . So uh that means redesign . {vocalsound} We do not have the time o uh now to to redesign the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} but we can evaluate the process and um uh uh the satisfaction on how things went . Um I'm not sure if we need to evaluate uh the device first . I guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um well , since we're not gonna manufacture it anyway {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We l we can learn . Yeah . Yeah . I agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it fancy ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I d it is it is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yay . Is it ? Is it fancy ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um the yellow rubber , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You like the rubber , uh Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm into it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's not that fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I'll I'll I'll give it a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean I think uh {disfmarker} I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing {disfmarker} the casing . It would be even more {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You like tita {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh , you really like titanium . I'm I'm into it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a flavour as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It has flavour . Yes , that's right . {vocalsound} You should taste it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Right . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but but it {disfmarker} but that's fancy in the way um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean fancy has has a lot of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It has to do with fashion , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's trendy trendy , fun {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And w", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , w what they want {disfmarker} wanted was uh colours and soft materials .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So in that way {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it's fancy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It applies . It {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , just {vocalsound} give it a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's not the ultimate uh fancy two , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think I th I think it would have been {disfmarker} I would have think {disfmarker} uh it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's sti that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Looking at the user uh needs , we only uh don't {disfmarker} we don't have the double-curved case . We w we do have uh the rubber , we do have the colours . That's two out of three . So I believe uh we are close uh to two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I agree too . It's okay . We did {gap} {disfmarker} yes , we did good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , and uh was it innovative ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "with the voice recognition feature and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's not in it . Ov or can we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , we are evaluating this this uh design now . This prototype .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , let's let's {disfmarker} this product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I I I think it is . I think it's innovative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And the scroll uh wheel . The solar {disfmarker} not many remotes have the solar , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic uh energy source , but it's it's way too {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That would have been a thrill .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh also a uh two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh it's a two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it easy to use ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not sure . {vocalsound} I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . Well , hard {disfmarker} it's not for the for the e for the elderly . They won't use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , but there are two parts in this remote control . What you see here is is the basic part . Everybody can use it , so that's easy to use .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's for a novice user . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . So in that in that way it is advanced ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I think it's easy to use for for both uh types of users .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} I think a three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} It's maybe {disfmarker} it's not very uh easy for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wouldn't give it more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I'm doubting {disfmarker} doubting as well . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the p the most important function is easy to use . The the zapping , channel switching , volume . But the more advanced functions are probably a bit harder .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? I mean ease of use um does not only apply to the most basic functions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the uh it's it's overall . Is the device easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . You're right in that , but I {gap} {disfmarker} I guess uh an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because he is already {disfmarker} he or she is already an advanced user .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "After all , I think {disfmarker} personally I would give a two . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Roo , a three ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good question . Uh I'll go uh for the two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , it's two , two and three . Two threes . So that's ten .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I could make it e easy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you make it a four it will be three in general .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's w No , two and a half .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If he makes it a four . Not a three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Six and four . Six and four is ten . Divided by four is two and a half . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Darn . Nee .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ? Huh ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A seven , a three {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A four and a three together .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Four ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have a two , he has a two . Three ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "two , two , three {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And a three ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I haven't said anything yet .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nee . I know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . Divided by four is two point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Divided by four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes . So if you want to have the conclusion as a three {disfmarker} three . Then you would make a four . If you fill out a four {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I'm filling in a three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's not even {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Does it {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} so it will be a two point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But that's not possible to fill in ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , it is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so we have to round it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is it easy to find ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I have a veto . {vocalsound} Exactly . It's not about the content , it's about {disfmarker} okay , um is it easy to f Yeah , definitely .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we haven't re uh re uh really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it most definitely is {disfmarker} it's very easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , or beeps or {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Maybe {disfmarker} Uh I I think I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm here , I'm here . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "something like that . Maybe you have to uh programme it once , so to that l respond to uh a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . So something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even without it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , I th", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we should not uh stay too long on this subject uh because of the time , but I personally give it a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , me too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Me too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , well . The feel of the remote control is spongy . Well , uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it can't be more spongy . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it can be . There are cases um in which the outside casing is {disfmarker} um can be {disfmarker} uh how d how do you prono is is moldable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Was it one of our options ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's not one of our option ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No okay , but but", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , in the in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but when you look in the market , when you look {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this this was a most spongy option . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "for the options given , it's the most spongy one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that's not that's not uh what they are talking about , I think . Because we compare all these uh characteristics {disfmarker} characteristics with uh market {disfmarker} uh with with the real market .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So there are uh remote controls out there which are a lot more spongy . They're out there . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} They're out there . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , but it's not good enough ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'll give it a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it's a two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} I wan I'll take one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You take one ? What do you give it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig uh a number . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because we need to go on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} for the time .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , if I give it a one there'll be one hell of a calculation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I'll just give it a two and make this a one point five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no no . Uh I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The remote control offers enough features .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the basic layout doesn't offem {disfmarker} offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Basically it's it's completely programmable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , depends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can add very m much functionality by uh using the voice recognition mode .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's quite advanced .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What what we didn't talk about is um uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {vocalsound} it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's {disfmarker} If you uh ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is {disfmarker} it has all the features um a normal remote has .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh depends on what you uh implement in the speech feat", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Bec because you can um {disfmarker} we didn't talk about it , but you do have uh remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you place a a regular uh remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the uh the um {gap} {disfmarker} the the signals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Has uh the signals sent to it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Signal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you could uh uh uh enter any comment you like , as long it's able to {disfmarker} as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . So I think th this uh this is uh a a remote control with a very high level of features .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Absolutely .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Although there are i a few buttons , but the inside is is quite uh advanced .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . But that {disfmarker} that's its power , I guess , because uh a regular programmable uh remote control contains , well , uh really a lot of buttons . At at least uh forty buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's it's quite s complicated to get uh to get used to . And this is quite s simple .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can use your voice to to programme it . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , um let's give it a number . I'll give it uh a one . For for the {disfmarker} for this t uh type of market , I think it's a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll give a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I'll give it a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think think a one , 'cause {gap} v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . I I've {disfmarker} I think we've uh succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So high quality , low acceptance .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The product is is is uh b high qua uh has a high quality and and is uh advanced . But {vocalsound} whether or not our clients are are um willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is {disfmarker} well , is not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "D do you agree ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I agree . I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe even because it doesn't look advanced .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe we should have a radar uh {vocalsound} function . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we could {disfmarker} couldn't uh {disfmarker} what what's the selling price ? Fifty ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh twenty five . And costs were twelve fifty .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even now , if only our production costs w {vocalsound} uh were exceeded the double , Think . Production cost was {disfmarker} were t uh was twenty two ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh {gap} selling price uh would be uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "M about fifty Euros .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite ex", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's price , but w w", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , uh a Phillips remote control , y you pay uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . It's quite expensive , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I kn I know uh from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bu but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are uh remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , but you can you c Yes , but you can learn this thing , all these functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's easier to use because those uh remote controls don't offer voice recognition", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and this one does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think it's worth its price .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um you had an overall rating . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} with these ratings uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's counting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it's about one point five . Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "should be about one point s seven ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Four six seven eight .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nine divided by six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Um we'll go further on with the the rest of the evaluation . About the project itself , not about the product . Um {disfmarker} What did you think about uh the process , the project process ? Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Try to translate that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Any any other {disfmarker} Uh , Roo ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ye", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The process was good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But w um we weren't aware of the prices of the costs .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and that was the the big deal . I if we knew that before , we c we could have made", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Actually , we had {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the the choice between {gap} what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Better decision .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We had we had too little information actually .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} And uh um the the the {disfmarker} well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too {disfmarker} the the choice of components was way too narrow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Less . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So there was not really a process of uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we could we we could be {disfmarker} we could've been creative . But um it was tempered by the choice of components and the the price .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The prices .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , in the first meeting we we already were very creative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We we thought of possibilities {vocalsound} who are not possible uh with the the current uh offer of uh manufacturing components . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're tempered by that , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I agree .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You agree , okay . Uh leadership .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fantastic . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , Roo's on for his promotion . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we're a good team .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think so too , it's it's it's uh of course a laboratory environment . I missed it um to be able to contact you in between and uh say uh , hey Roo uh {gap} . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I tried once , but that was not allowed . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but but si uh w w w {gap} {disfmarker} when taken in account the the situation , uh I think we performed pretty well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the means , the SMARTboard , the digital pen . Did you like 'em ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh . The digital pen was okay , but SMARTboard was really bad .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because of the response", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Response", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The response is very slow", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and the possibilities are very limited . It's not accurate .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh it it has {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah , it's not accurate . The p the pointing of the pen is not um the place where it it writes its {disfmarker} um uh where it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Draws .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , where it draws . It's uh {disfmarker} the drawing on on the b on the board is {gap} r right from the pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it it had to be um better aligned , or what's the word ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You to take in account that your {disfmarker} you m", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} it needs to be calibrateds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's too slow {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it was calibrated just before this meeting . Uh the one before , the third meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh it's not the calibration ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it's the thing itself , I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , w uh did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not at all .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not really .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I thought it was quite a handy uh thing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "although I would like to see um O_C_R_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If it has O_C_R_ {vocalsound} , uh I think uh I would use , but uh I I just uh took notes for myself and and and that's it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It w it w yeah . It was necessary for me to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To digitise them .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because if I want something on the computer , I just type it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I type faster than I write .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think it's a great solution for uh for uh a known problem , uh writing down some notes , some some inf uh information , and then um forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy {disfmarker} it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's a good product . I only think it's th the the shape of the pen is too big .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's not quite uh ergonomic . Eco ergonomic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Economic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um {disfmarker} What w Uh Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , you can't really decide . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} can't say much about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I missed a feature to easily select uh a slide and uh distribute it to the laptops . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , or the other way around .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or the other way around , that you could show {disfmarker} but m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But y you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite what PowerPoint does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you save this image , you can open it in your shared work folder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's almost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but we couldn't use that feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I missed it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We weren't able to do that . At least the {disfmarker} um I wasn't explained how to do such a th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {gap} . A and the function of of filling an an uh an oval or an an object .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "An object , yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's not possible {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The drawing cap capabilities are very limited .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and uh w you were {disfmarker} when you're using uh Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , uh which you can use for drawing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And a lot of these buttons don't appear here . So it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it looks like paint actually .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so y it {disfmarker} it's not even as advanced as paint .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not not uh n not {gap} way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite uh limited .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh no . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , the project is evaluated . Um but , well , we need to redesign uh the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Oh , very good , celebration .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Celebrate", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pop uh pop up the champagne . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was a privilege working with you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you're dismissed . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think we are uh ready .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "To private rooms ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I see some action over there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Private room , Roo . That sounds quite scary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , let's find uh the way to {gap} . {vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} uh we're done , we're finished , {gap} I believe . So , are there any more cycles in this process ? I think not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't believe so . Well , maybe we'd {disfmarker} get an email . Thank you for your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um how much time did we get for this meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Forty minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And how much time is left ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A minute or or ten maybe . M", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ten minutes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , ten or five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , we can uh redesign our uh {disfmarker} Uh I would like to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . A simple , dull , uh one-coloured box .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And no added value . At all .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you see the problem ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "y you can't continue your uh your line . Well , it's fluffy alright . {vocalsound} Spongy . A giraffe ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What is that ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's a giraffe eating a {disfmarker} eating leaves from a tree .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's blue tongue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In interesting design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} This is a new model . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you're actually promoting Bluetooth . Or blue tongue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Blue tongue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh uh it it does uh have a natural uh feeling .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's spongy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} That is uh {disfmarker} it's a new feature next to Bluetooth to um disable all Bluetooth devices . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Blue tongue .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Let's wrap it up .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we're done here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Gentlemen , thank you for your cooperation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you Mister manager . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Now , {vocalsound} let's have uh a bottle of champagne .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . Leave it here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's alright . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "That's the same as uh on the top of it uh with the the round uh button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Like this one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But uh we don't uh we don't uh {disfmarker} we do think it's um well {disfmarker} what if with ease of use , w which prefers the {disfmarker} which the the customer of the user prefers .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's important . Uh I think th this is device which which has a learning curve . Um novice users u use this device as uh normal users use uh a c a remote control . And after a while they start to develop uh some skills in the the voice recognition functions , and then they will not use this dial as often . But other users who are new to this device need something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They n they need to understand what {disfmarker} uh how to change channels and uh change the volume , so it's easier for them", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Could could I see the scroll bar as uh as as a sort of shortcut ? A a and the voice recognition as well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe so . Yes , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th maybe you could uh could uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it's it's another approach , it's more that our um {gap} . {vocalsound} There are there are many ways of doing uh things uh on such a device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's it's quite easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , good . And and the case is is rubber ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , rubber ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Plastic or rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} There are plastic or rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and uh the colouring ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yellow with uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} with with grey or black .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "grey or black or something like that . Whatever cost uh cost uh the least . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "we'll we'll come to that later . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay . Anything else to add or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} Uh maybe we should uh think about these buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , you could use two of them to programme the um channels on the two channel button ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes , but it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause you have to assign two channel {disfmarker} new channels .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but these are tasks that are only executed once , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M uh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or not ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "M m but maybe you do want a programme button to uh for example activate the voice recognition , or train the voice voice recognition .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well okay . Okay , yeah , that's right . Or something li like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And a button for disabling the voice recognition .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah al although by pressing the button for I n don't know two , three seconds , you could also say it {disfmarker} you'd disable it with a little beep and and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but o okay , that that's not really really important .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's the basic idea , yeah . Of our prototype .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The basic {disfmarker} okay . Okay . Um you thought of some evaluation crit criteria ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh my name is not name", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You are nameless . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well , I used the {gap} {disfmarker} the uh {gap} documents . And these uh were the most important criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is it spongy ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It should be . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "that's uh how the fashion guys uh state it . Fancy look and feel . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So just walk through it step by step . I mean , is it fancy , everything {disfmarker} I believe uh I believe it's fancy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh well appar", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I believe it's fancy too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but apparently uh we shouldn't evaluate yet .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , sorry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this {disfmarker} these are the cr uh the criteria .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think these are the most important criteria .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "the then we'll switch to my presentation . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The production costs . The costs are not under {disfmarker} Can I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um this is the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twenty two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's w way above um uh above the the the twelve Euro fifty .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yikes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And what makes it very expensive is uh for example the solar cell . So I guess we should skip that ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well it's very expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's not that important .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why does the price and and the s oh , one uh exa", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the price , the the number of items and the the sum .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . The number of uh {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um well , this is what I would call our luxury model . Um if you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and does it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "if you look at the uh w w w what we could do to make it more um {vocalsound} to make it {vocalsound} just between the twelve Euro fifty , um then I did the following changes . Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells , um by not using the voice recognition feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it's uh it's a four Euro uh addition to the price .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Yeah , I believe {disfmarker} Uh , push-button , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It makes it the thirteen {disfmarker} yeah . Push-buttons are {disfmarker} buttons are are not the most expensive , but do add extra cost .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker} yeah , th this design is not um within our price model .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm afraid it's not complete . Because we use spec uh specic uh special materials , the last item . And you have not added one item there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's c way too expensive .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's still too expensive , yeah . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's that's only for the buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I guess if we leave the {disfmarker} if we leave this one out , um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So the button we can use plastic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh maybe not use the special form .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the pla uh {disfmarker} And a plastic b just plastic buttons , a plas uh instead of rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It becomes a very dull remote control , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But it's the board decision . Um {disfmarker} And um {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , b basically it {vocalsound} {disfmarker} when when this is our only option , we should even consider changing the casing , because I think there's very little added value in uh an enhanced case with these dull functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I know . Maybe we should look at an {disfmarker} uh focus on another uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Type of m maybe another market segment .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , m uh maybe not not all that fancy , but just way way more easy uh uh um basic", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh m maximise the profits", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} maybe that's better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we could uh {disfmarker} we should go for straight and simple ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but that's not what uh has been asked .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I know , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we should kick the board's uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Although I think we {disfmarker} yeah , but we could still make uh a remote control that ap uh um applies um more to young people uh by giving it another colour already .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um so it is possible to make uh uh a device that attracts a little bit more to young people .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um but uh I agree it's it's not a fancy high-tech uh device . Definitely not , no . {vocalsound} It's not that innovative .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or however you s pronounce that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , too bad . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um so , okay . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Oh ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is the wrong one . So uh that means redesign . {vocalsound} We do not have the time o uh now to to redesign the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} but we can evaluate the process and um uh uh the satisfaction on how things went . Um I'm not sure if we need to evaluate uh the device first . I guess {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um well , since we're not gonna manufacture it anyway {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's true .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , maybe it's good to do it anyway , because if we evaluate it , we we can also determine if our objectives are good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "We l we can learn . Yeah . Yeah . I agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it fancy ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I d it is it is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yay . Is it ? Is it fancy ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um the yellow rubber , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You like the rubber , uh Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm into it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But it's not that fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , I'll I'll I'll give it a two .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean I think uh {disfmarker} I think it would have been more fancy if we used the titanium housing {disfmarker} the casing . It would be even more {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You like tita {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "oh , you really like titanium . I'm I'm into it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's a flavour as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It has flavour . Yes , that's right . {vocalsound} You should taste it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Right . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but but it {disfmarker} but that's fancy in the way um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean fancy has has a lot of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It has to do with fashion , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's trendy trendy , fun {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And w", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , w what they want {disfmarker} wanted was uh colours and soft materials .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So in that way {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it's fancy .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It applies . It {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , just {vocalsound} give it a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's not the ultimate uh fancy two , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think I th I think it would have been {disfmarker} I would have think {disfmarker} uh it could have been more fancy by using the double-curved case . It would have been even more fancy , but we decided not to , because if we use a double-curved case , we could not use solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's sti that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Looking at the user uh needs , we only uh don't {disfmarker} we don't have the double-curved case . We w we do have uh the rubber , we do have the colours . That's two out of three . So I believe uh we are close uh to two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I I agree .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I agree too . It's okay . We did {gap} {disfmarker} yes , we did good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , and uh was it innovative ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "with the voice recognition feature and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But that's not in it . Ov or can we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , we are evaluating this this uh design now . This prototype .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , let's let's {disfmarker} this product .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I I I think it is . I think it's innovative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} And the scroll uh wheel . The solar {disfmarker} not many remotes have the solar , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . It could have been a little bit more innovative u by using the kinetic uh energy source , but it's it's way too {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That would have been a thrill .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yes , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh also a uh two ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think uh it's a two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it easy to use ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not sure . {vocalsound} I'm not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well yeah , the voice recognition of course is hard to learn , I think . Well , hard {disfmarker} it's not for the for the e for the elderly . They won't use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , but there are two parts in this remote control . What you see here is is the basic part . Everybody can use it , so that's easy to use .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's for a novice user . When you have a more advanced , elaborate user , well , such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions . So in that in that way it is advanced ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and I think it's easy to use for for both uh types of users .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} I think a three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} It's maybe {disfmarker} it's not very uh easy for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wouldn't give it more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh I'm doubting {disfmarker} doubting as well . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the p the most important function is easy to use . The the zapping , channel switching , volume . But the more advanced functions are probably a bit harder .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? I mean ease of use um does not only apply to the most basic functions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the uh it's it's overall . Is the device easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right . You're right in that , but I {gap} {disfmarker} I guess uh an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because he is already {disfmarker} he or she is already an advanced user .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "After all , I think {disfmarker} personally I would give a two . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Roo , a three ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good question . Uh I'll go uh for the two .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , it's two , two and three . Two threes . So that's ten .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I could make it e easy ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "If you make it a four it will be three in general .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's w No , two and a half .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If he makes it a four . Not a three .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Six and four . Six and four is ten . Divided by four is two and a half . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Darn . Nee .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm ? Huh ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A seven , a three {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I yeah {gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A four and a three together .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Four ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have a two , he has a two . Three ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "two , two , three {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And a three ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I haven't said anything yet .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nee . I know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , but if I would say a three , then it's six , and four is ten . Divided by four is two point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Divided by four .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes . So if you want to have the conclusion as a three {disfmarker} three . Then you would make a four . If you fill out a four {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I'm filling in a three .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's not even {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Does it {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} so it will be a two point five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But that's not possible to fill in ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes , it is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so we have to round it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Is it easy to find ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I have a veto . {vocalsound} Exactly . It's not about the content , it's about {disfmarker} okay , um is it easy to f Yeah , definitely .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we haven't re uh re uh really worked it out , but you c you can you can just say find and he repeats find .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it most definitely is {disfmarker} it's very easy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , or beeps or {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that's the that's the the basic idea of the the speaker uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Maybe {disfmarker} Uh I I think I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm here , I'm here . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "something like that . Maybe you have to uh programme it once , so to that l respond to uh a certain word or a certain sentence , something like where are you , and then it will sing I'm here . So something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even without it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , I th", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we should not uh stay too long on this subject uh because of the time , but I personally give it a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um Sebastian ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , me too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Me too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right , well . The feel of the remote control is spongy . Well , uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it can't be more spongy . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it can be . There are cases um in which the outside casing is {disfmarker} um can be {disfmarker} uh how d how do you prono is is moldable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Was it one of our options ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it's not one of our option ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No okay , but but", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , in the in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but when you look in the market , when you look {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this this was a most spongy option . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "for the options given , it's the most spongy one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that's not that's not uh what they are talking about , I think . Because we compare all these uh characteristics {disfmarker} characteristics with uh market {disfmarker} uh with with the real market .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So there are uh remote controls out there which are a lot more spongy . They're out there . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} They're out there . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But I think in this case in this case we've done the best we could .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , but it's not good enough ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'll give it a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so it's a two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} I wan I'll take one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You take one ? What do you give it ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well yeah , it depends , 'cause it's the most spongy we could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know , but you have to name a fig uh a number . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because we need to go on {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} for the time .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , if I give it a one there'll be one hell of a calculation .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It will be a one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I'll just give it a two and make this a one point five .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No no no . Uh I'll I'll change it , I'll make it m my my mark will be a four . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The remote control offers enough features .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , Ruud , what what do you think about it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , the basic layout doesn't offem {disfmarker} offer much , but the voice recognition could add a lot . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Basically it's it's completely programmable .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , depends .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can add very m much functionality by uh using the voice recognition mode .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's quite advanced .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What what we didn't talk about is um uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {vocalsound} it ha doesn't has the digits . I believe it's {disfmarker} If you uh ask yourself it offers enough features , I don't I don't think it is {disfmarker} it has all the features um a normal remote has .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh depends on what you uh implement in the speech feat", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Bec because you can um {disfmarker} we didn't talk about it , but you do have uh remote controls that are able to adapt another signal . So ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you place a a regular uh remote control in front of the other one , hit the one or the two or the three , whatever , and it r records the uh the um {gap} {disfmarker} the the signals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Has uh the signals sent to it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Signal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you could uh uh uh enter any comment you like , as long it's able to {disfmarker} as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal . So I think th this uh this is uh a a remote control with a very high level of features .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Absolutely .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Although there are i a few buttons , but the inside is is quite uh advanced .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . But that {disfmarker} that's its power , I guess , because uh a regular programmable uh remote control contains , well , uh really a lot of buttons . At at least uh forty buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's it's quite s complicated to get uh to get used to . And this is quite s simple .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can use your voice to to programme it . It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , um let's give it a number . I'll give it uh a one . For for the {disfmarker} for this t uh type of market , I think it's a one .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll give a two .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I'll give it a one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think think a one , 'cause {gap} v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want , so that's like um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes . I I've {disfmarker} I think we've uh succe succeed in in developing a product that's actually quite good , but not for this kind of market , and not for this kind of price .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So high quality , low acceptance .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The product is is is uh b high qua uh has a high quality and and is uh advanced . But {vocalsound} whether or not our clients are are um willing to pay twenty five Euros for this kind of device is doub is {disfmarker} well , is not sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "D do you agree ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , I agree . I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe even because it doesn't look advanced .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . Maybe we should have a radar uh {vocalsound} function . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we could {disfmarker} couldn't uh {disfmarker} what what's the selling price ? Fifty ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh twenty five . And costs were twelve fifty .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But even now , if only our production costs w {vocalsound} uh were exceeded the double , Think . Production cost was {disfmarker} were t uh was twenty two ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh {gap} selling price uh would be uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "M about fifty Euros .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite ex", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's price , but w w", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "well , it's not it's not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . An original remote control of any T_V_ kind , uh a Phillips remote control , y you pay uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , it's more than fifty Euros . It's quite expensive , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I kn I know uh from a few years ago , it it it costed hundred Gilders .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bu but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} yeah , I know , but you're paying for th for the brand , because there are uh remote controls which control your stereo , television , D_V_D_ , C_D_ player , for under twenty five Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes , but you can you c Yes , but you can learn this thing , all these functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's easier to use because those uh remote controls don't offer voice recognition", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and this one does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think it's worth its price .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um you had an overall rating . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but uh {vocalsound} with these ratings uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's counting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it's about one point five . Something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "should be about one point s seven ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Four six seven eight .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nine divided by six .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Um we'll go further on with the the rest of the evaluation . About the project itself , not about the product . Um {disfmarker} What did you think about uh the process , the project process ? Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Try to translate that . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Any any other {disfmarker} Uh , Roo ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ye", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Roo . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The process was good .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But w um we weren't aware of the prices of the costs .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and that was the the big deal . I if we knew that before , we c we could have made", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . Actually , we had {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the the choice between {gap} what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Better decision .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We had we had too little information actually .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} And uh um the the the {disfmarker} well , looking at room for creativity , there was w way too {disfmarker} the the choice of components was way too narrow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Less . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So there was not really a process of uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So we could we we could be {disfmarker} we could've been creative . But um it was tempered by the choice of components and the the price .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The prices .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , in the first meeting we we already were very creative .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We we thought of possibilities {vocalsound} who are not possible uh with the the current uh offer of uh manufacturing components . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're tempered by that , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , Roo ? Any other thoughts on that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Ruud ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I agree .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You agree , okay . Uh leadership .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Fantastic . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , Roo's on for his promotion . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we're a good team .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think so too , it's it's it's uh of course a laboratory environment . I missed it um to be able to contact you in between and uh say uh , hey Roo uh {gap} . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I tried once , but that was not allowed . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but but si uh w w w {gap} {disfmarker} when taken in account the the situation , uh I think we performed pretty well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the means , the SMARTboard , the digital pen . Did you like 'em ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh . The digital pen was okay , but SMARTboard was really bad .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because of the response", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Response", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The response is very slow", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and the possibilities are very limited . It's not accurate .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh it it has {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah , it's not accurate . The p the pointing of the pen is not um the place where it it writes its {disfmarker} um uh where it uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Draws .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , where it draws . It's uh {disfmarker} the drawing on on the b on the board is {gap} r right from the pen .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it it had to be um better aligned , or what's the word ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You to take in account that your {disfmarker} you m", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe it's {disfmarker} it needs to be calibrateds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's too slow {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it was calibrated just before this meeting . Uh the one before , the third meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So uh it's not the calibration ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it's the thing itself , I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , w uh did you use the pen a lot ? Or not at all ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not at all .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not really .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I thought it was quite a handy uh thing ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think so too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "although I would like to see um O_C_R_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If it has O_C_R_ {vocalsound} , uh I think uh I would use , but uh I I just uh took notes for myself and and and that's it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It w it w yeah . It was necessary for me to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "To digitise them .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because if I want something on the computer , I just type it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I type faster than I write .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I think it's a great solution for uh for uh a known problem , uh writing down some notes , some some inf uh information , and then um forgetting your notebook somewhere and losing all that information .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because you have everything in one place and it's quite easy quite easy {disfmarker} it's it's possible to make this information digital and share it with others in a quite easy way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's a good product . I only think it's th the the shape of the pen is too big .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's not quite uh ergonomic . Eco ergonomic .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Economic .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um {disfmarker} What w Uh Ruud , what did you think about the SMARTboards ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , I only use it to draw a rabbit ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , you can't really decide . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} can't say much about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I missed a feature to easily select uh a slide and uh distribute it to the laptops . I think that would be very easy if you could say okay , I want to use this for my own work or my own presentation further on or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , or the other way around .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or the other way around , that you could show {disfmarker} but m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But y you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite what PowerPoint does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if you save this image , you can open it in your shared work folder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's almost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but we couldn't use that feature ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I missed it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We weren't able to do that . At least the {disfmarker} um I wasn't explained how to do such a th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {gap} . A and the function of of filling an an uh an oval or an an object .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "An object , yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's not possible {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The drawing cap capabilities are very limited .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And and uh w you were {disfmarker} when you're using uh Windows , you're used to a certain interface and certain buttons , uh which you can use for drawing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And a lot of these buttons don't appear here . So it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it looks like paint actually .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so y it {disfmarker} it's not even as advanced as paint .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Not not uh n not {gap} way .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's quite uh limited .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh no . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , the project is evaluated . Um but , well , we need to redesign uh the product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Oh , very good , celebration .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Celebrate", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pop uh pop up the champagne . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It was a privilege working with you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you're dismissed . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , I think we are uh ready .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "To private rooms ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I see some action over there .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Private room , Roo . That sounds quite scary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , let's find uh the way to {gap} . {vocalsound} {gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} uh we're done , we're finished , {gap} I believe . So , are there any more cycles in this process ? I think not .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't believe so . Well , maybe we'd {disfmarker} get an email . Thank you for your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um how much time did we get for this meeting ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Forty minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And how much time is left ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A minute or or ten maybe . M", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ten minutes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , ten or five .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , we can uh redesign our uh {disfmarker} Uh I would like to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , I think we we we all know what the redesign should be . A simple , dull , uh one-coloured box .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And no added value . At all .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , it's it's just the same product that is already on the market .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But you see the problem ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "y you can't continue your uh your line . Well , it's fluffy alright . {vocalsound} Spongy . A giraffe ? {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What is that ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's a giraffe eating a {disfmarker} eating leaves from a tree .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's blue tongue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In interesting design .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} This is a new model . But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you're actually promoting Bluetooth . Or blue tongue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Blue tongue . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh uh it it does uh have a natural uh feeling .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's spongy . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} . {vocalsound} That is uh {disfmarker} it's a new feature next to Bluetooth to um disable all Bluetooth devices . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Blue tongue .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Let's wrap it up .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , we're done here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Gentlemen , thank you for your cooperation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Thank you Mister manager . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Now , {vocalsound} let's have uh a bottle of champagne .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . Leave it here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's alright . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay so we'll try to zip through this , since we're short on time . Welcome everybody . Um hope your sessions went well . Um so this is our functional design meeting , we're going to consider um user needs , technical effects , and the working design of our remote control . Um I've been taking meetings on the minute minutes on the meetings {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , and I'll be putting them in the shared documents folder so if there's anything you need to refer to you can find them in there . Um I I'll get the ones up for next time , um they're not finished yet . Right . Um so can we have updates from everyone from what you've worked on just kind of a quick summary of anything interesting that you'd like to share or discuss in this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I can start if you want . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is there an order ? No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We haven't decided on an order .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , any any order's fine . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "First . Okay . Um , how do I put this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll just put the cable in .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Is that it ? Can you see ? {vocalsound} Oh , here . Okay . So what happens it doesn't work ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It sh it takes a few seconds I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You may need to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Who's that ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But sometimes you have to do it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it in the right thing ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's like a three set setting cycle , so press it a couple times , hold down function and then press F_ eight .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh wait , um . Uh . You need to help me . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh-huh , and then press function .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and F_ eight .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Could you just plug it back into hers because she had {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , wait .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} is that it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Adjusting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Here we are . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The cable might be a little loose or something . Oh , you got it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right here we are .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Is it on ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , um . In order to see what the functional requirements were to be found , um a hundred people were tested in a usability laboratory through just their habits to n know their habits were observed and questionnaires were given out . Um , the findings in in some cases matched what we were talking about . Custome Customers and users don't like the way remote controls look , they don't like the way they feel , they don't think they match their operating behaviour , and an example is what we were talking about , the buttons , they only use ten per cent of the buttons , so later on there's a study of the buttons that they use most and I think we should design according to these buttons . Easy to lose , and R_S_I_ . I don't know what R_S_I_ means . Um the person that did the questionnaire obviously did , I don't have a clue .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , according to the frequency of use and the relevance of each buttons , I have made a list of the buttons that we should focus on in order of importance . So the most important buttons are those to do with channel selection . They're used about a hundred and sixty times per hour . And um yeah so and and people like to zap a lot apparently , so this is the order . Channel selection , teletext , volume , and power . The other ones are the settings , and they're used less than {disfmarker} you know zero point eight to zero point five times per hour , and this means that I think we can we could have like a a button for all the settings , and then , just one , and then from there go on to the audio on the screen , either on the remote or on the television . Um , about the screen , and speech recognition , some people are more willing than others to actually pay for that . And if we look at the market , f people from well from fifteen to thirty five year old year olds , I don't really know how to describe this , um ninety one to seventy six percent of people in that age range are willing to pay more for this sort of product , while people that are above thirty five years ol um years old go from thirty five percent to eight percent , so people that are sixty five for example wouldn't actually pay for this sort of thing . Um I don't I don't know um what the decision to be made is , but I think that the people that actually do buy remotes m more are those like teenagers and young professionals and um , most likely , but we should discuss this together . {vocalsound} And that's all I have to say about the matter , {vocalsound} um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Shall I {disfmarker} what do I do ? Do I give this to someone else ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just move right on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . So get this . Okay so now I need to press F_ eight , what is it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh function F_ eight .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Function F_ eight .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay . What's function ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the little blue {disfmarker} w it's the one {disfmarker} th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh function , I see it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah should be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There we go . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It should be {gap} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Um . This my presentation about the uh technical functions design and I basically just tried to focus on um {vocalsound} just what what functions we need and how to make that the best function for the user . So uh and I just sort of like thought about it myself and looked on the internet {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And okay so basically um {vocalsound} I think i uh like it is really important that we sort of get this done in a user friendly and fashionable way . Um {vocalsound} so I think things like uh you know keeping buttons together that {disfmarker} like close together that um {vocalsound} are used in the same way , uh {vocalsound} or um maybe that making 'em the same colour , keeping the number of buttons the uh leas you know to a minimum , and also things like is it is it um is it uh {disfmarker} can you c y small enough large enough I'm not sure we c I guess we would need to do some research about , I would , about what size is appropriate and that sort of thing , um but basically we need to make sure that it turns on and off the T_V_ . Does it have like capacity to change the channels ? Um {vocalsound} does it do {disfmarker} or do we need to have like functions for cable or V_C_R_ ? And then , is it findable , and uh how do we wanna do that ? And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I just thought that these two remotes were pretty boring , um I dunno if this will work but {disfmarker} And I think we can find something that's more fun to look at and use than either of those . {vocalsound} Just I mean I like the one on the right better , just because it does have fewer buttons , uh but I mean I think we sh can sort of think about things like um {vocalsound} like colour and you know size , shapes , that sort of thing , to best fit the user . {vocalsound} That concludes my presentation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . You need the little thingy . Ooh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How do I um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S That's on view .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay so this is on the working design , which is sort of the uh mechanical functions of the remote , um and the method I used was to basically look at existing designs and incorporate ideas from our last meeting . Um so I think we need two basic functions which is just the basic remote functions , the user can input a channel or volume setting and it will be output to the T_V_ . And also we talked about um a location function where maybe you could press a button on the T_V_ and it would send sort of signal to the remote where it would beep or flash or vibrate or whatever to tell you where the remote is . So the components we need are an energy source to power the remote , um input which would probably be buttons , although um we just talked about voice recognition , processor to take the information , um something to transmit it to the T_V_ , and we also need something on the remote that would receive the location signal and have an output , like possibly a beep or a vibration . And also you need a sender for location signal , which would probably be a separate um thing that we'd have to sell with the remote and people could stick it on their T_V_ or stick it on their wall . And this is just sort of an overview of how the remote works . Power comes from the battery , goes to the chip , um and then it is sent from there to an infrared bulb which is probably the easiest way to send to the T_V_ . And then for the location function , you would have a sender on the T_V_ which would output some sort of signal , um we could use I_R_ but we'd probably wanna use radio instead . That signal would go to a receiver which it would process it , and it would be output in the form of a buzzer or a light lighting up . Um so my personal preferences for how to build the remote would probably be uh , battery for the energy source , that way you wouldn't have to plug it in , um a button pad for input , um we can purchase a pre-made chip which will handle all the processing stuff , I_R_ transmitter to communicate to the T_V_ , that's just sort of standard , um so most T_V_s have an I_R_ receiver . Probably a radio receiver to send out location function and to receive it and I'd probably say a buzzer for the location function on the remote itself . So that concludes my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you know about like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno , you seem like you know about {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh I d I was an engineer before I came here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well thank you everybody . Um {vocalsound} we have {disfmarker} we'll discuss that and then I just wanna mention some new project requirements that came in . Um , teletext is apparently outdated , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} due to internet popularity , so that's off the list . Um ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "also our remote should be used only for television , um , no extra internet kinda fancy things , just the remote and the television . Um and also we need to incorporate our corporate image onto this , so um the phrase is , we put fashion in electronics , so let's be fashionable I guess . Um if we have something {disfmarker} I mean silver and and gold or yellow are our colours , so if we had a like a kind of silver one like you saw , and yellow writing , something like that . Okay . Um . So we need to make some decisions on the remote control functions . Um , yeah . {vocalsound} Do {disfmarker} Let's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I guess we should yeah make some kind of brainstorming , see what we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like in terms of", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How it looks or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "how it looks , or like what it does ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "wha what {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} well probably our target group and how it's gonna going to appeal to our target group and I dunno the the s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the buttons and what it does and that sort of thing . So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . So {disfmarker} Is our target group then people {disfmarker} so do we wanna go ahead and design this thing with the finder button ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think that seems to {disfmarker} yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's easy to implement .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} the the buzzer you mean ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Locator .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , for sure , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So then our target age group would be the nineteen to thirty five range ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , teenagers and young professionals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what was it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well that's for speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And screen . That's only for speech recognition and screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I was thinking about that but uh I mean speech recognition is really hard to programme ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and also , if the T_V_ is on it's making sound and the people on the T_V_ are talking , and if somebody says like one , then the T_V_'s gonna switch itself to channel one ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} it seems like a silly ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not sure how you would implement it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I just put the values {vocalsound} in .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if if you consider our budget , it probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um the screen is the same as what , {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a cool idea but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "if you consider our budget , to h have speech recognition programmed in every single remote might be a little pricey .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'm happy with that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right so um {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hu yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Completely .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay so are we gonna have just some kind of a {disfmarker} like we'll have the buzzer on the som like on the T_V_ itself .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well you would have to have a button on a T_V_ or on your wall or some place {gap} since the T_V_ already has power .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah you click the button , it's gonna send out a signal , and I was thinking , I_R_ is line of sight , so unless the remote is like actually in front of the T_V_ it's not gonna work , um so probably like a radio signal like on a on a cell phone .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sends out a signal and then the the remote hears the signal and so it beeps probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you you'd need like a separate base for that or like something you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It would have to be sold separately because if the sender's on the remote then you'd have to find the remote first to click the button to find the remote {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "right . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So do you plug it in the T_ {disfmarker} you plug it in T_V_ , this thing ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it'd probably just stick it on your T_V_ so if you need to find the remote , click the button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it's now like a two-part thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , so it would be a two part package .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we get to design that too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Make it fashionable . Um , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So do you think even though we're not talking about speek speech recognition our target group should still be teenagers and young professionals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Are we um should that thing be on the {vocalsound} thing to put the {disfmarker} you s you talking about a home for it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you still want to build a little thing next to the telly or to p hang on the wall or shall we leave that for now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We probably leave that . I mean I guess one takes care of the other , like um if you can yeah if you can call it then it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Then it can live anywhere .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . For the {disfmarker} so you have that button , that {disfmarker} so there's {disfmarker} is there a light or shall we leave just have a radio ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um on the T_V_ or on the phone ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are we just having a radio ? On the phone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um it seemed like a {disfmarker} a beep seemed the most reasonable to me ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "T", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You don't need a light . Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think that's what the phone has ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean when you need to find your phone , you just have someone call it {vocalsound} and it starts ringing somewhere and then you can figure out that it's in the couch or wherever .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And like if the if the phone's under the couch , you might not see the light , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can hear it's under the couch yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So i Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , {vocalsound} {gap} So need the other buttons . So we have this {disfmarker} mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I mean the two remotes that you had shown r I don't remember who showed them {vocalsound} , yeah you you did um ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That was that was me .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "they're {disfmarker} I mean one looked like it was for V_C_R_ type thing , and the other looked like just television .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think w I think they're both sort of just like general remo they're both general remotes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh really . 'Cause that that is something we have to decide , is whether we want to have V_C_R_ capabilities .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does anyone know if V_C_R_s are the same across {disfmarker} international ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're not {disfmarker} no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're not , no .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so you'd need like a whole different set of buttons for everybody's V_C_R_s .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It not V_H_S_ here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But D_V_D_ probably is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , other than that region and coding thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and if we're if we're targeting young professionals and teenagers , I mean it's gonna be D_V_D_ type , that's the the technology these days .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But V_C_R_s {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , for sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . Okay , let's see if I can {disfmarker} I think still though , it shouldn't be that hard to take {disfmarker} like just reduce the number of buttons you know ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "like 'cause if you just have like one menu button , that works like with a you know , or you can just kind of scroll through the options u that come up on the T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well for sure we need the um {disfmarker} I think we can just design the channels ? I mean power's just a button , and it's not used that much ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "s and it's usually that red", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I think it's quite nice to keep it like red .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know , I've seen some remotes that {disfmarker} where you just hold one , like if you hold one down it's it's a different colour than the other buttons but that turns it on . So you don't actually have a separate power button , it's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It seems like that would be hard though .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , like because unless you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It might be confusing . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . Just 'cause I wouldn't {disfmarker} I would probably pick it up and just be like uh why is there no on button . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Besides you like to be able to go power .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I never think to hold something down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I have the power {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . B {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I guess . So we definitely want a power button and numbers . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well even um iPod thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , like um , I don't know if people like this but if you want to reduce the number , of buttons , instead of having like one to nine , have a sort of", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That sort of like joystick flat touch thing , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "scrolling {disfmarker} I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Because people li seem {disfmarker} now the iPod's out people seem to like this thing that there's no {disfmarker} Know you don't have one two three four five {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . I think that's an interesting idea , 'cause it's cool ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's it's funny like you f like I just {disfmarker} I don't have an iPod but like I , you know , I just like started messing around with one of my friend's the other day , and you just sort of and {disfmarker} it's funny how you pick it up and you just figure out how to use it quite easily , like it's not that hard , you know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , it's just {disfmarker} and it's one thing which has everything .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and it is {disfmarker} yeah . It is really {disfmarker} but do you need a screen then , do you have to have a screen then ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well can't it tell the {disfmarker} like can't you {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can have the number going around in the corner .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you can have the number on the telly going like one two three four five once you scroll and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Okay so we have this like scrolling sort of button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh that's gonna {disfmarker} Is that like on on a mouse pad where like kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a disc . Yeah . Yeah . It's like {disfmarker} it's just like the same technology as a mouse pad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay . I've never used one . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like l this {disfmarker} like that , and then you do that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah and then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And then you can have um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you actually just want to zap , you can have like a thing {vocalsound} like that , and that , and then it can just be plus and minus .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So like it's like a little part of the circle that {disfmarker} Or it {disfmarker} oh so it's just a region of the circle that you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well i", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "zap .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , click o actually click on to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We could we could even have four buttons , like , if that's the if that's the mouse , you could have the volume and the channel changers just like on that as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . So volume could be like the top it and the bottom {disfmarker} So do you need to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Doesn't it rotate though ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so it'll be moving around .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well y you have to you have to like be able to change the function of it to like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What do you mean the function ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean like okay , 'cause so {disfmarker} I dunno , I guess {disfmarker} Okay {disfmarker} so when you g scroll your thumb like around it , it'll s like say you're go you're going clockwise . That that means you're gonna go up the channels , and then you scroll the other way and it'll go down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so if you wanna switch to the {disfmarker} to u do you have to switch to a function where like y so you're either in that mode or you're in the mode where like it just has like the four like you know this is channel that way , that's that way and volume is up and down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but it knows for some reason .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The iPod knows .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It just kno {vocalsound} the iPod knows . {vocalsound} S", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} If it works on an iPod then it works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . So you just you just can either do this or like you can just touch it if you want .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't have one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well for the volume you have to press the middle , and then go up .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . That's what I mean . Okay . Okay so you have to like press this middle region and then you can scroll up , go up and down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's like holding {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} well if you do that it goes , but if you {disfmarker} like that makes more sense 'cause there's already ones with up and down here , that I've seen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can {disfmarker} o And you you {disfmarker} is there an extra actual button ? Or are you actually {disfmarker} you're just using the mouse to go up and down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like a b", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "for the iPod you press an {disfmarker} w right if you're on the channel let's say , then you press on the middle and then if you do that again the volume goes up , and if you do that it goes down .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Right . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you wanna keep it with volume here and here , I'm pretty sure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well I mean if if you're gonna this for channels , right , then y wouldn't the volume need to be separate somehow ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like you could just have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you could click and then have it up and down ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh you could actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we can go on the fact that it does just work with the iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the only thing is like , iPods are so expensive , like , it has to be {disfmarker} is that part of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that what makes them expensi I think it's all of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , I dunno , I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they have so much memory though , that's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You don't think so ? Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't think it's the wheel dealy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think it's the uh h it's their capabili I mean they {disfmarker} it can hold what like five thousand songs or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I'm thinking we could {disfmarker} if if we're hav So ba I mean but an iPod just has that circle thing you know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And they're re-programmable aren't they ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can put on your songs and then put on a different set ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's probably why they're expensive , they're like little computers .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well like since it just has the circle thing , you could make it a qui a kind of cool shape , like it could be a cool sort of you know , because it could be circular , you know , or something weird like that , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Well it could just be simple instead of being a l mass . Because , the other thing , I didn't tell you all my presentation {vocalsound} , is that people find it {disfmarker} find that it's a big waste of time to have to learn how to use your remote", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and that's another thing they complained about .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , what other buttons were there ? Volume {disfmarker} oh we've ts just said that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Channel selection .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is just for T_V_ , it's not for {disfmarker} or it is {disfmarker} does need to be compatible with {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} A D_V_D_ is simple , you just have play , pause , eject ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know actually our our new project requirements , I'm not sure if they meant o onl use only for television as in not for D_V_D_ or just not internet type things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So how do you switch {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Menu .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and menu maybe . Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'll I'll check that and update you on the next {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So like if we had that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But we'll hold off on that 'cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But s yeah uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But D_V_D_ players usually have their own remote .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's true , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , I know I'm not c really clear on what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's cool to have it all on one , because you wanna turn it on then you wanna turn up the volume , and then you wanna go to the menu , so you don't wanna switch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you'd have to have like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} you would have to have like a function switch button , you know somewhere so like you can {disfmarker} you're either on T_V_ , you're on D_V_D_ or you're on V_C_R_ , or you're like . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well but D_V_D_ is only like four buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is only fun", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I mean like to switch the fun so like to switch the function of the little circle disc , the touch pad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But i Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . But I think the circle only does {disfmarker} channel isn't applicable to D_V_D_ really 'cause you don't wanna {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but volume is and volume is actually controlled on the T_V_ so you don't have to switch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} but I'm saying like , does it make sense to have like some kind of a button , so like you're {disfmarker} if you're on T_V_ , like you can switch channels , but then if uh if you're on D_V_D_ then like the channel bu like the the region of the disc that was for channels is for like switching to different tracks or s you know , to different {disfmarker} I mean do we need to think about that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , yeah , let's think about it", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes we can try that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause we need to wrap up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay so we'll try to zip through this , since we're short on time . Welcome everybody . Um hope your sessions went well . Um so this is our functional design meeting , we're going to consider um user needs , technical effects , and the working design of our remote control . Um I've been taking meetings on the minute minutes on the meetings {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , and I'll be putting them in the shared documents folder so if there's anything you need to refer to you can find them in there . Um I I'll get the ones up for next time , um they're not finished yet . Right . Um so can we have updates from everyone from what you've worked on just kind of a quick summary of anything interesting that you'd like to share or discuss in this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I can start if you want . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is there an order ? No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We haven't decided on an order .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , any any order's fine . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "First . Okay . Um , how do I put this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll just put the cable in .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Is that it ? Can you see ? {vocalsound} Oh , here . Okay . So what happens it doesn't work ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It sh it takes a few seconds I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You may need to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Who's that ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But sometimes you have to do it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it in the right thing ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's like a three set setting cycle , so press it a couple times , hold down function and then press F_ eight .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh wait , um . Uh . You need to help me . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh-huh , and then press function .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and F_ eight .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Could you just plug it back into hers because she had {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , wait .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} is that it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Adjusting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Here we are . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The cable might be a little loose or something . Oh , you got it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right here we are .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Is it on ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , um . In order to see what the functional requirements were to be found , um a hundred people were tested in a usability laboratory through just their habits to n know their habits were observed and questionnaires were given out . Um , the findings in in some cases matched what we were talking about . Custome Customers and users don't like the way remote controls look , they don't like the way they feel , they don't think they match their operating behaviour , and an example is what we were talking about , the buttons , they only use ten per cent of the buttons , so later on there's a study of the buttons that they use most and I think we should design according to these buttons . Easy to lose , and R_S_I_ . I don't know what R_S_I_ means . Um the person that did the questionnaire obviously did , I don't have a clue .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , according to the frequency of use and the relevance of each buttons , I have made a list of the buttons that we should focus on in order of importance . So the most important buttons are those to do with channel selection . They're used about a hundred and sixty times per hour . And um yeah so and and people like to zap a lot apparently , so this is the order . Channel selection , teletext , volume , and power . The other ones are the settings , and they're used less than {disfmarker} you know zero point eight to zero point five times per hour , and this means that I think we can we could have like a a button for all the settings , and then , just one , and then from there go on to the audio on the screen , either on the remote or on the television . Um , about the screen , and speech recognition , some people are more willing than others to actually pay for that . And if we look at the market , f people from well from fifteen to thirty five year old year olds , I don't really know how to describe this , um ninety one to seventy six percent of people in that age range are willing to pay more for this sort of product , while people that are above thirty five years ol um years old go from thirty five percent to eight percent , so people that are sixty five for example wouldn't actually pay for this sort of thing . Um I don't I don't know um what the decision to be made is , but I think that the people that actually do buy remotes m more are those like teenagers and young professionals and um , most likely , but we should discuss this together . {vocalsound} And that's all I have to say about the matter , {vocalsound} um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Shall I {disfmarker} what do I do ? Do I give this to someone else ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just move right on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . So get this . Okay so now I need to press F_ eight , what is it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh function F_ eight .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Function F_ eight .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay . What's function ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the little blue {disfmarker} w it's the one {disfmarker} th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh function , I see it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah should be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There we go . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It should be {gap} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Um . This my presentation about the uh technical functions design and I basically just tried to focus on um {vocalsound} just what what functions we need and how to make that the best function for the user . So uh and I just sort of like thought about it myself and looked on the internet {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And okay so basically um {vocalsound} I think i uh like it is really important that we sort of get this done in a user friendly and fashionable way . Um {vocalsound} so I think things like uh you know keeping buttons together that {disfmarker} like close together that um {vocalsound} are used in the same way , uh {vocalsound} or um maybe that making 'em the same colour , keeping the number of buttons the uh leas you know to a minimum , and also things like is it is it um is it uh {disfmarker} can you c y small enough large enough I'm not sure we c I guess we would need to do some research about , I would , about what size is appropriate and that sort of thing , um but basically we need to make sure that it turns on and off the T_V_ . Does it have like capacity to change the channels ? Um {vocalsound} does it do {disfmarker} or do we need to have like functions for cable or V_C_R_ ? And then , is it findable , and uh how do we wanna do that ? And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I just thought that these two remotes were pretty boring , um I dunno if this will work but {disfmarker} And I think we can find something that's more fun to look at and use than either of those . {vocalsound} Just I mean I like the one on the right better , just because it does have fewer buttons , uh but I mean I think we sh can sort of think about things like um {vocalsound} like colour and you know size , shapes , that sort of thing , to best fit the user . {vocalsound} That concludes my presentation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . You need the little thingy . Ooh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How do I um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S That's on view .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay so this is on the working design , which is sort of the uh mechanical functions of the remote , um and the method I used was to basically look at existing designs and incorporate ideas from our last meeting . Um so I think we need two basic functions which is just the basic remote functions , the user can input a channel or volume setting and it will be output to the T_V_ . And also we talked about um a location function where maybe you could press a button on the T_V_ and it would send sort of signal to the remote where it would beep or flash or vibrate or whatever to tell you where the remote is . So the components we need are an energy source to power the remote , um input which would probably be buttons , although um we just talked about voice recognition , processor to take the information , um something to transmit it to the T_V_ , and we also need something on the remote that would receive the location signal and have an output , like possibly a beep or a vibration . And also you need a sender for location signal , which would probably be a separate um thing that we'd have to sell with the remote and people could stick it on their T_V_ or stick it on their wall . And this is just sort of an overview of how the remote works . Power comes from the battery , goes to the chip , um and then it is sent from there to an infrared bulb which is probably the easiest way to send to the T_V_ . And then for the location function , you would have a sender on the T_V_ which would output some sort of signal , um we could use I_R_ but we'd probably wanna use radio instead . That signal would go to a receiver which it would process it , and it would be output in the form of a buzzer or a light lighting up . Um so my personal preferences for how to build the remote would probably be uh , battery for the energy source , that way you wouldn't have to plug it in , um a button pad for input , um we can purchase a pre-made chip which will handle all the processing stuff , I_R_ transmitter to communicate to the T_V_ , that's just sort of standard , um so most T_V_s have an I_R_ receiver . Probably a radio receiver to send out location function and to receive it and I'd probably say a buzzer for the location function on the remote itself . So that concludes my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you know about like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno , you seem like you know about {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh I d I was an engineer before I came here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well thank you everybody . Um {vocalsound} we have {disfmarker} we'll discuss that and then I just wanna mention some new project requirements that came in . Um , teletext is apparently outdated , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} due to internet popularity , so that's off the list . Um ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "also our remote should be used only for television , um , no extra internet kinda fancy things , just the remote and the television . Um and also we need to incorporate our corporate image onto this , so um the phrase is , we put fashion in electronics , so let's be fashionable I guess . Um if we have something {disfmarker} I mean silver and and gold or yellow are our colours , so if we had a like a kind of silver one like you saw , and yellow writing , something like that . Okay . Um . So we need to make some decisions on the remote control functions . Um , yeah . {vocalsound} Do {disfmarker} Let's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I guess we should yeah make some kind of brainstorming , see what we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like in terms of", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How it looks or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "how it looks , or like what it does ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "wha what {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} well probably our target group and how it's gonna going to appeal to our target group and I dunno the the s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the buttons and what it does and that sort of thing . So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . So {disfmarker} Is our target group then people {disfmarker} so do we wanna go ahead and design this thing with the finder button ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think that seems to {disfmarker} yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's easy to implement .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} the the buzzer you mean ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Locator .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , for sure , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So then our target age group would be the nineteen to thirty five range ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , teenagers and young professionals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what was it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well that's for speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And screen . That's only for speech recognition and screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I was thinking about that but uh I mean speech recognition is really hard to programme ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and also , if the T_V_ is on it's making sound and the people on the T_V_ are talking , and if somebody says like one , then the T_V_'s gonna switch itself to channel one ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} it seems like a silly ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not sure how you would implement it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I just put the values {vocalsound} in .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if if you consider our budget , it probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um the screen is the same as what , {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a cool idea but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "if you consider our budget , to h have speech recognition programmed in every single remote might be a little pricey .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'm happy with that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right so um {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hu yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Completely .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay so are we gonna have just some kind of a {disfmarker} like we'll have the buzzer on the som like on the T_V_ itself .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well you would have to have a button on a T_V_ or on your wall or some place {gap} since the T_V_ already has power .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah you click the button , it's gonna send out a signal , and I was thinking , I_R_ is line of sight , so unless the remote is like actually in front of the T_V_ it's not gonna work , um so probably like a radio signal like on a on a cell phone .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sends out a signal and then the the remote hears the signal and so it beeps probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you you'd need like a separate base for that or like something you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It would have to be sold separately because if the sender's on the remote then you'd have to find the remote first to click the button to find the remote {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "right . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So do you plug it in the T_ {disfmarker} you plug it in T_V_ , this thing ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it'd probably just stick it on your T_V_ so if you need to find the remote , click the button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it's now like a two-part thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , so it would be a two part package .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we get to design that too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Make it fashionable . Um , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So do you think even though we're not talking about speek speech recognition our target group should still be teenagers and young professionals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Are we um should that thing be on the {vocalsound} thing to put the {disfmarker} you s you talking about a home for it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you still want to build a little thing next to the telly or to p hang on the wall or shall we leave that for now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We probably leave that . I mean I guess one takes care of the other , like um if you can yeah if you can call it then it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Then it can live anywhere .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . For the {disfmarker} so you have that button , that {disfmarker} so there's {disfmarker} is there a light or shall we leave just have a radio ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um on the T_V_ or on the phone ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are we just having a radio ? On the phone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um it seemed like a {disfmarker} a beep seemed the most reasonable to me ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "T", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You don't need a light . Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think that's what the phone has ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean when you need to find your phone , you just have someone call it {vocalsound} and it starts ringing somewhere and then you can figure out that it's in the couch or wherever .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And like if the if the phone's under the couch , you might not see the light , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can hear it's under the couch yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So i Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , {vocalsound} {gap} So need the other buttons . So we have this {disfmarker} mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I mean the two remotes that you had shown r I don't remember who showed them {vocalsound} , yeah you you did um ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That was that was me .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "they're {disfmarker} I mean one looked like it was for V_C_R_ type thing , and the other looked like just television .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think w I think they're both sort of just like general remo they're both general remotes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh really . 'Cause that that is something we have to decide , is whether we want to have V_C_R_ capabilities .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does anyone know if V_C_R_s are the same across {disfmarker} international ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're not {disfmarker} no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're not , no .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so you'd need like a whole different set of buttons for everybody's V_C_R_s .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It not V_H_S_ here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But D_V_D_ probably is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , other than that region and coding thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and if we're if we're targeting young professionals and teenagers , I mean it's gonna be D_V_D_ type , that's the the technology these days .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But V_C_R_s {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , for sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . Okay , let's see if I can {disfmarker} I think still though , it shouldn't be that hard to take {disfmarker} like just reduce the number of buttons you know ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "like 'cause if you just have like one menu button , that works like with a you know , or you can just kind of scroll through the options u that come up on the T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well for sure we need the um {disfmarker} I think we can just design the channels ? I mean power's just a button , and it's not used that much ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "s and it's usually that red", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I think it's quite nice to keep it like red .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know , I've seen some remotes that {disfmarker} where you just hold one , like if you hold one down it's it's a different colour than the other buttons but that turns it on . So you don't actually have a separate power button , it's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It seems like that would be hard though .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , like because unless you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It might be confusing . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . Just 'cause I wouldn't {disfmarker} I would probably pick it up and just be like uh why is there no on button . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Besides you like to be able to go power .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I never think to hold something down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I have the power {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . B {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I guess . So we definitely want a power button and numbers . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well even um iPod thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , like um , I don't know if people like this but if you want to reduce the number , of buttons , instead of having like one to nine , have a sort of", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That sort of like joystick flat touch thing , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "scrolling {disfmarker} I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Because people li seem {disfmarker} now the iPod's out people seem to like this thing that there's no {disfmarker} Know you don't have one two three four five {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . I think that's an interesting idea , 'cause it's cool ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's it's funny like you f like I just {disfmarker} I don't have an iPod but like I , you know , I just like started messing around with one of my friend's the other day , and you just sort of and {disfmarker} it's funny how you pick it up and you just figure out how to use it quite easily , like it's not that hard , you know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , it's just {disfmarker} and it's one thing which has everything .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and it is {disfmarker} yeah . It is really {disfmarker} but do you need a screen then , do you have to have a screen then ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well can't it tell the {disfmarker} like can't you {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can have the number going around in the corner .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you can have the number on the telly going like one two three four five once you scroll and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Okay so we have this like scrolling sort of button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh that's gonna {disfmarker} Is that like on on a mouse pad where like kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a disc . Yeah . Yeah . It's like {disfmarker} it's just like the same technology as a mouse pad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay . I've never used one . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like l this {disfmarker} like that , and then you do that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah and then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And then you can have um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you actually just want to zap , you can have like a thing {vocalsound} like that , and that , and then it can just be plus and minus .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So like it's like a little part of the circle that {disfmarker} Or it {disfmarker} oh so it's just a region of the circle that you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well i", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "zap .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , click o actually click on to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We could we could even have four buttons , like , if that's the if that's the mouse , you could have the volume and the channel changers just like on that as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . So volume could be like the top it and the bottom {disfmarker} So do you need to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Doesn't it rotate though ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so it'll be moving around .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well y you have to you have to like be able to change the function of it to like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What do you mean the function ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean like okay , 'cause so {disfmarker} I dunno , I guess {disfmarker} Okay {disfmarker} so when you g scroll your thumb like around it , it'll s like say you're go you're going clockwise . That that means you're gonna go up the channels , and then you scroll the other way and it'll go down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so if you wanna switch to the {disfmarker} to u do you have to switch to a function where like y so you're either in that mode or you're in the mode where like it just has like the four like you know this is channel that way , that's that way and volume is up and down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but it knows for some reason .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The iPod knows .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It just kno {vocalsound} the iPod knows . {vocalsound} S", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} If it works on an iPod then it works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . So you just you just can either do this or like you can just touch it if you want .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't have one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well for the volume you have to press the middle , and then go up .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . That's what I mean . Okay . Okay so you have to like press this middle region and then you can scroll up , go up and down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's like holding {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} well if you do that it goes , but if you {disfmarker} like that makes more sense 'cause there's already ones with up and down here , that I've seen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can {disfmarker} o And you you {disfmarker} is there an extra actual button ? Or are you actually {disfmarker} you're just using the mouse to go up and down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like a b", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "for the iPod you press an {disfmarker} w right if you're on the channel let's say , then you press on the middle and then if you do that again the volume goes up , and if you do that it goes down .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Right . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you wanna keep it with volume here and here , I'm pretty sure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well I mean if if you're gonna this for channels , right , then y wouldn't the volume need to be separate somehow ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like you could just have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you could click and then have it up and down ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh you could actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we can go on the fact that it does just work with the iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the only thing is like , iPods are so expensive , like , it has to be {disfmarker} is that part of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that what makes them expensi I think it's all of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , I dunno , I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they have so much memory though , that's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You don't think so ? Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't think it's the wheel dealy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think it's the uh h it's their capabili I mean they {disfmarker} it can hold what like five thousand songs or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I'm thinking we could {disfmarker} if if we're hav So ba I mean but an iPod just has that circle thing you know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And they're re-programmable aren't they ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can put on your songs and then put on a different set ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's probably why they're expensive , they're like little computers .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well like since it just has the circle thing , you could make it a qui a kind of cool shape , like it could be a cool sort of you know , because it could be circular , you know , or something weird like that , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Well it could just be simple instead of being a l mass . Because , the other thing , I didn't tell you all my presentation {vocalsound} , is that people find it {disfmarker} find that it's a big waste of time to have to learn how to use your remote", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and that's another thing they complained about .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , what other buttons were there ? Volume {disfmarker} oh we've ts just said that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Channel selection .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is just for T_V_ , it's not for {disfmarker} or it is {disfmarker} does need to be compatible with {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} A D_V_D_ is simple , you just have play , pause , eject ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know actually our our new project requirements , I'm not sure if they meant o onl use only for television as in not for D_V_D_ or just not internet type things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So how do you switch {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Menu .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and menu maybe . Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'll I'll check that and update you on the next {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So like if we had that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But we'll hold off on that 'cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But s yeah uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But D_V_D_ players usually have their own remote .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's true , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , I know I'm not c really clear on what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's cool to have it all on one , because you wanna turn it on then you wanna turn up the volume , and then you wanna go to the menu , so you don't wanna switch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you'd have to have like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} you would have to have like a function switch button , you know somewhere so like you can {disfmarker} you're either on T_V_ , you're on D_V_D_ or you're on V_C_R_ , or you're like . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well but D_V_D_ is only like four buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is only fun", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I mean like to switch the fun so like to switch the function of the little circle disc , the touch pad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But i Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . But I think the circle only does {disfmarker} channel isn't applicable to D_V_D_ really 'cause you don't wanna {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but volume is and volume is actually controlled on the T_V_ so you don't have to switch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} but I'm saying like , does it make sense to have like some kind of a button , so like you're {disfmarker} if you're on T_V_ , like you can switch channels , but then if uh if you're on D_V_D_ then like the channel bu like the the region of the disc that was for channels is for like switching to different tracks or s you know , to different {disfmarker} I mean do we need to think about that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , yeah , let's think about it", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes we can try that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause we need to wrap up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay so we'll try to zip through this , since we're short on time . Welcome everybody . Um hope your sessions went well . Um so this is our functional design meeting , we're going to consider um user needs , technical effects , and the working design of our remote control . Um I've been taking meetings on the minute minutes on the meetings {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , and I'll be putting them in the shared documents folder so if there's anything you need to refer to you can find them in there . Um I I'll get the ones up for next time , um they're not finished yet . Right . Um so can we have updates from everyone from what you've worked on just kind of a quick summary of anything interesting that you'd like to share or discuss in this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I can start if you want . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is there an order ? No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We haven't decided on an order .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , any any order's fine . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "First . Okay . Um , how do I put this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll just put the cable in .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Is that it ? Can you see ? {vocalsound} Oh , here . Okay . So what happens it doesn't work ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It sh it takes a few seconds I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You may need to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Who's that ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But sometimes you have to do it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it in the right thing ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's like a three set setting cycle , so press it a couple times , hold down function and then press F_ eight .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh wait , um . Uh . You need to help me . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh-huh , and then press function .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and F_ eight .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Could you just plug it back into hers because she had {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , wait .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} is that it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Adjusting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Here we are . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The cable might be a little loose or something . Oh , you got it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right here we are .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Is it on ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , um . In order to see what the functional requirements were to be found , um a hundred people were tested in a usability laboratory through just their habits to n know their habits were observed and questionnaires were given out . Um , the findings in in some cases matched what we were talking about . Custome Customers and users don't like the way remote controls look , they don't like the way they feel , they don't think they match their operating behaviour , and an example is what we were talking about , the buttons , they only use ten per cent of the buttons , so later on there's a study of the buttons that they use most and I think we should design according to these buttons . Easy to lose , and R_S_I_ . I don't know what R_S_I_ means . Um the person that did the questionnaire obviously did , I don't have a clue .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , according to the frequency of use and the relevance of each buttons , I have made a list of the buttons that we should focus on in order of importance . So the most important buttons are those to do with channel selection . They're used about a hundred and sixty times per hour . And um yeah so and and people like to zap a lot apparently , so this is the order . Channel selection , teletext , volume , and power . The other ones are the settings , and they're used less than {disfmarker} you know zero point eight to zero point five times per hour , and this means that I think we can we could have like a a button for all the settings , and then , just one , and then from there go on to the audio on the screen , either on the remote or on the television . Um , about the screen , and speech recognition , some people are more willing than others to actually pay for that . And if we look at the market , f people from well from fifteen to thirty five year old year olds , I don't really know how to describe this , um ninety one to seventy six percent of people in that age range are willing to pay more for this sort of product , while people that are above thirty five years ol um years old go from thirty five percent to eight percent , so people that are sixty five for example wouldn't actually pay for this sort of thing . Um I don't I don't know um what the decision to be made is , but I think that the people that actually do buy remotes m more are those like teenagers and young professionals and um , most likely , but we should discuss this together . {vocalsound} And that's all I have to say about the matter , {vocalsound} um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Shall I {disfmarker} what do I do ? Do I give this to someone else ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just move right on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . So get this . Okay so now I need to press F_ eight , what is it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh function F_ eight .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Function F_ eight .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay . What's function ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the little blue {disfmarker} w it's the one {disfmarker} th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh function , I see it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah should be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There we go . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It should be {gap} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Um . This my presentation about the uh technical functions design and I basically just tried to focus on um {vocalsound} just what what functions we need and how to make that the best function for the user . So uh and I just sort of like thought about it myself and looked on the internet {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And okay so basically um {vocalsound} I think i uh like it is really important that we sort of get this done in a user friendly and fashionable way . Um {vocalsound} so I think things like uh you know keeping buttons together that {disfmarker} like close together that um {vocalsound} are used in the same way , uh {vocalsound} or um maybe that making 'em the same colour , keeping the number of buttons the uh leas you know to a minimum , and also things like is it is it um is it uh {disfmarker} can you c y small enough large enough I'm not sure we c I guess we would need to do some research about , I would , about what size is appropriate and that sort of thing , um but basically we need to make sure that it turns on and off the T_V_ . Does it have like capacity to change the channels ? Um {vocalsound} does it do {disfmarker} or do we need to have like functions for cable or V_C_R_ ? And then , is it findable , and uh how do we wanna do that ? And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I just thought that these two remotes were pretty boring , um I dunno if this will work but {disfmarker} And I think we can find something that's more fun to look at and use than either of those . {vocalsound} Just I mean I like the one on the right better , just because it does have fewer buttons , uh but I mean I think we sh can sort of think about things like um {vocalsound} like colour and you know size , shapes , that sort of thing , to best fit the user . {vocalsound} That concludes my presentation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . You need the little thingy . Ooh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How do I um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S That's on view .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay so this is on the working design , which is sort of the uh mechanical functions of the remote , um and the method I used was to basically look at existing designs and incorporate ideas from our last meeting . Um so I think we need two basic functions which is just the basic remote functions , the user can input a channel or volume setting and it will be output to the T_V_ . And also we talked about um a location function where maybe you could press a button on the T_V_ and it would send sort of signal to the remote where it would beep or flash or vibrate or whatever to tell you where the remote is . So the components we need are an energy source to power the remote , um input which would probably be buttons , although um we just talked about voice recognition , processor to take the information , um something to transmit it to the T_V_ , and we also need something on the remote that would receive the location signal and have an output , like possibly a beep or a vibration . And also you need a sender for location signal , which would probably be a separate um thing that we'd have to sell with the remote and people could stick it on their T_V_ or stick it on their wall . And this is just sort of an overview of how the remote works . Power comes from the battery , goes to the chip , um and then it is sent from there to an infrared bulb which is probably the easiest way to send to the T_V_ . And then for the location function , you would have a sender on the T_V_ which would output some sort of signal , um we could use I_R_ but we'd probably wanna use radio instead . That signal would go to a receiver which it would process it , and it would be output in the form of a buzzer or a light lighting up . Um so my personal preferences for how to build the remote would probably be uh , battery for the energy source , that way you wouldn't have to plug it in , um a button pad for input , um we can purchase a pre-made chip which will handle all the processing stuff , I_R_ transmitter to communicate to the T_V_ , that's just sort of standard , um so most T_V_s have an I_R_ receiver . Probably a radio receiver to send out location function and to receive it and I'd probably say a buzzer for the location function on the remote itself . So that concludes my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you know about like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno , you seem like you know about {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh I d I was an engineer before I came here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well thank you everybody . Um {vocalsound} we have {disfmarker} we'll discuss that and then I just wanna mention some new project requirements that came in . Um , teletext is apparently outdated , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} due to internet popularity , so that's off the list . Um ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "also our remote should be used only for television , um , no extra internet kinda fancy things , just the remote and the television . Um and also we need to incorporate our corporate image onto this , so um the phrase is , we put fashion in electronics , so let's be fashionable I guess . Um if we have something {disfmarker} I mean silver and and gold or yellow are our colours , so if we had a like a kind of silver one like you saw , and yellow writing , something like that . Okay . Um . So we need to make some decisions on the remote control functions . Um , yeah . {vocalsound} Do {disfmarker} Let's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I guess we should yeah make some kind of brainstorming , see what we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like in terms of", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How it looks or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "how it looks , or like what it does ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "wha what {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} well probably our target group and how it's gonna going to appeal to our target group and I dunno the the s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the buttons and what it does and that sort of thing . So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . So {disfmarker} Is our target group then people {disfmarker} so do we wanna go ahead and design this thing with the finder button ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think that seems to {disfmarker} yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's easy to implement .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} the the buzzer you mean ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Locator .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , for sure , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So then our target age group would be the nineteen to thirty five range ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , teenagers and young professionals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what was it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well that's for speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And screen . That's only for speech recognition and screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I was thinking about that but uh I mean speech recognition is really hard to programme ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and also , if the T_V_ is on it's making sound and the people on the T_V_ are talking , and if somebody says like one , then the T_V_'s gonna switch itself to channel one ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} it seems like a silly ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not sure how you would implement it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I just put the values {vocalsound} in .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if if you consider our budget , it probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um the screen is the same as what , {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a cool idea but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "if you consider our budget , to h have speech recognition programmed in every single remote might be a little pricey .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'm happy with that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right so um {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hu yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Completely .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay so are we gonna have just some kind of a {disfmarker} like we'll have the buzzer on the som like on the T_V_ itself .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well you would have to have a button on a T_V_ or on your wall or some place {gap} since the T_V_ already has power .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah you click the button , it's gonna send out a signal , and I was thinking , I_R_ is line of sight , so unless the remote is like actually in front of the T_V_ it's not gonna work , um so probably like a radio signal like on a on a cell phone .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sends out a signal and then the the remote hears the signal and so it beeps probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you you'd need like a separate base for that or like something you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It would have to be sold separately because if the sender's on the remote then you'd have to find the remote first to click the button to find the remote {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "right . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So do you plug it in the T_ {disfmarker} you plug it in T_V_ , this thing ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it'd probably just stick it on your T_V_ so if you need to find the remote , click the button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it's now like a two-part thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , so it would be a two part package .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we get to design that too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Make it fashionable . Um , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So do you think even though we're not talking about speek speech recognition our target group should still be teenagers and young professionals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Are we um should that thing be on the {vocalsound} thing to put the {disfmarker} you s you talking about a home for it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you still want to build a little thing next to the telly or to p hang on the wall or shall we leave that for now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We probably leave that . I mean I guess one takes care of the other , like um if you can yeah if you can call it then it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Then it can live anywhere .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . For the {disfmarker} so you have that button , that {disfmarker} so there's {disfmarker} is there a light or shall we leave just have a radio ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um on the T_V_ or on the phone ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are we just having a radio ? On the phone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um it seemed like a {disfmarker} a beep seemed the most reasonable to me ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "T", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You don't need a light . Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think that's what the phone has ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean when you need to find your phone , you just have someone call it {vocalsound} and it starts ringing somewhere and then you can figure out that it's in the couch or wherever .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And like if the if the phone's under the couch , you might not see the light , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can hear it's under the couch yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So i Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , {vocalsound} {gap} So need the other buttons . So we have this {disfmarker} mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I mean the two remotes that you had shown r I don't remember who showed them {vocalsound} , yeah you you did um ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That was that was me .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "they're {disfmarker} I mean one looked like it was for V_C_R_ type thing , and the other looked like just television .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think w I think they're both sort of just like general remo they're both general remotes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh really . 'Cause that that is something we have to decide , is whether we want to have V_C_R_ capabilities .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does anyone know if V_C_R_s are the same across {disfmarker} international ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're not {disfmarker} no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're not , no .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so you'd need like a whole different set of buttons for everybody's V_C_R_s .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It not V_H_S_ here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But D_V_D_ probably is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , other than that region and coding thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and if we're if we're targeting young professionals and teenagers , I mean it's gonna be D_V_D_ type , that's the the technology these days .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But V_C_R_s {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , for sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . Okay , let's see if I can {disfmarker} I think still though , it shouldn't be that hard to take {disfmarker} like just reduce the number of buttons you know ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "like 'cause if you just have like one menu button , that works like with a you know , or you can just kind of scroll through the options u that come up on the T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well for sure we need the um {disfmarker} I think we can just design the channels ? I mean power's just a button , and it's not used that much ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "s and it's usually that red", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I think it's quite nice to keep it like red .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know , I've seen some remotes that {disfmarker} where you just hold one , like if you hold one down it's it's a different colour than the other buttons but that turns it on . So you don't actually have a separate power button , it's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It seems like that would be hard though .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , like because unless you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It might be confusing . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . Just 'cause I wouldn't {disfmarker} I would probably pick it up and just be like uh why is there no on button . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Besides you like to be able to go power .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I never think to hold something down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I have the power {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . B {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I guess . So we definitely want a power button and numbers . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well even um iPod thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , like um , I don't know if people like this but if you want to reduce the number , of buttons , instead of having like one to nine , have a sort of", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That sort of like joystick flat touch thing , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "scrolling {disfmarker} I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Because people li seem {disfmarker} now the iPod's out people seem to like this thing that there's no {disfmarker} Know you don't have one two three four five {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . I think that's an interesting idea , 'cause it's cool ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's it's funny like you f like I just {disfmarker} I don't have an iPod but like I , you know , I just like started messing around with one of my friend's the other day , and you just sort of and {disfmarker} it's funny how you pick it up and you just figure out how to use it quite easily , like it's not that hard , you know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , it's just {disfmarker} and it's one thing which has everything .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and it is {disfmarker} yeah . It is really {disfmarker} but do you need a screen then , do you have to have a screen then ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well can't it tell the {disfmarker} like can't you {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can have the number going around in the corner .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you can have the number on the telly going like one two three four five once you scroll and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Okay so we have this like scrolling sort of button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh that's gonna {disfmarker} Is that like on on a mouse pad where like kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a disc . Yeah . Yeah . It's like {disfmarker} it's just like the same technology as a mouse pad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay . I've never used one . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like l this {disfmarker} like that , and then you do that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah and then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And then you can have um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you actually just want to zap , you can have like a thing {vocalsound} like that , and that , and then it can just be plus and minus .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So like it's like a little part of the circle that {disfmarker} Or it {disfmarker} oh so it's just a region of the circle that you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well i", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "zap .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , click o actually click on to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We could we could even have four buttons , like , if that's the if that's the mouse , you could have the volume and the channel changers just like on that as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . So volume could be like the top it and the bottom {disfmarker} So do you need to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Doesn't it rotate though ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so it'll be moving around .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well y you have to you have to like be able to change the function of it to like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What do you mean the function ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean like okay , 'cause so {disfmarker} I dunno , I guess {disfmarker} Okay {disfmarker} so when you g scroll your thumb like around it , it'll s like say you're go you're going clockwise . That that means you're gonna go up the channels , and then you scroll the other way and it'll go down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so if you wanna switch to the {disfmarker} to u do you have to switch to a function where like y so you're either in that mode or you're in the mode where like it just has like the four like you know this is channel that way , that's that way and volume is up and down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but it knows for some reason .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The iPod knows .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It just kno {vocalsound} the iPod knows . {vocalsound} S", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} If it works on an iPod then it works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . So you just you just can either do this or like you can just touch it if you want .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't have one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well for the volume you have to press the middle , and then go up .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . That's what I mean . Okay . Okay so you have to like press this middle region and then you can scroll up , go up and down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's like holding {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} well if you do that it goes , but if you {disfmarker} like that makes more sense 'cause there's already ones with up and down here , that I've seen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can {disfmarker} o And you you {disfmarker} is there an extra actual button ? Or are you actually {disfmarker} you're just using the mouse to go up and down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like a b", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "for the iPod you press an {disfmarker} w right if you're on the channel let's say , then you press on the middle and then if you do that again the volume goes up , and if you do that it goes down .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Right . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you wanna keep it with volume here and here , I'm pretty sure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well I mean if if you're gonna this for channels , right , then y wouldn't the volume need to be separate somehow ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like you could just have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you could click and then have it up and down ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh you could actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we can go on the fact that it does just work with the iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the only thing is like , iPods are so expensive , like , it has to be {disfmarker} is that part of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that what makes them expensi I think it's all of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , I dunno , I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they have so much memory though , that's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You don't think so ? Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't think it's the wheel dealy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think it's the uh h it's their capabili I mean they {disfmarker} it can hold what like five thousand songs or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I'm thinking we could {disfmarker} if if we're hav So ba I mean but an iPod just has that circle thing you know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And they're re-programmable aren't they ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can put on your songs and then put on a different set ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's probably why they're expensive , they're like little computers .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well like since it just has the circle thing , you could make it a qui a kind of cool shape , like it could be a cool sort of you know , because it could be circular , you know , or something weird like that , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Well it could just be simple instead of being a l mass . Because , the other thing , I didn't tell you all my presentation {vocalsound} , is that people find it {disfmarker} find that it's a big waste of time to have to learn how to use your remote", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and that's another thing they complained about .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , what other buttons were there ? Volume {disfmarker} oh we've ts just said that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Channel selection .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is just for T_V_ , it's not for {disfmarker} or it is {disfmarker} does need to be compatible with {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} A D_V_D_ is simple , you just have play , pause , eject ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know actually our our new project requirements , I'm not sure if they meant o onl use only for television as in not for D_V_D_ or just not internet type things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So how do you switch {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Menu .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and menu maybe . Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'll I'll check that and update you on the next {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So like if we had that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But we'll hold off on that 'cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But s yeah uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But D_V_D_ players usually have their own remote .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's true , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , I know I'm not c really clear on what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's cool to have it all on one , because you wanna turn it on then you wanna turn up the volume , and then you wanna go to the menu , so you don't wanna switch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you'd have to have like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} you would have to have like a function switch button , you know somewhere so like you can {disfmarker} you're either on T_V_ , you're on D_V_D_ or you're on V_C_R_ , or you're like . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well but D_V_D_ is only like four buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is only fun", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I mean like to switch the fun so like to switch the function of the little circle disc , the touch pad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But i Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . But I think the circle only does {disfmarker} channel isn't applicable to D_V_D_ really 'cause you don't wanna {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but volume is and volume is actually controlled on the T_V_ so you don't have to switch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} but I'm saying like , does it make sense to have like some kind of a button , so like you're {disfmarker} if you're on T_V_ , like you can switch channels , but then if uh if you're on D_V_D_ then like the channel bu like the the region of the disc that was for channels is for like switching to different tracks or s you know , to different {disfmarker} I mean do we need to think about that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , yeah , let's think about it", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes we can try that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause we need to wrap up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay so we'll try to zip through this , since we're short on time . Welcome everybody . Um hope your sessions went well . Um so this is our functional design meeting , we're going to consider um user needs , technical effects , and the working design of our remote control . Um I've been taking meetings on the minute minutes on the meetings {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , and I'll be putting them in the shared documents folder so if there's anything you need to refer to you can find them in there . Um I I'll get the ones up for next time , um they're not finished yet . Right . Um so can we have updates from everyone from what you've worked on just kind of a quick summary of anything interesting that you'd like to share or discuss in this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I can start if you want . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is there an order ? No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We haven't decided on an order .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , any any order's fine . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "First . Okay . Um , how do I put this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll just put the cable in .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Is that it ? Can you see ? {vocalsound} Oh , here . Okay . So what happens it doesn't work ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It sh it takes a few seconds I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You may need to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Who's that ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But sometimes you have to do it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it in the right thing ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's like a three set setting cycle , so press it a couple times , hold down function and then press F_ eight .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh wait , um . Uh . You need to help me . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh-huh , and then press function .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and F_ eight .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Could you just plug it back into hers because she had {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , wait .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} is that it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Adjusting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Here we are . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The cable might be a little loose or something . Oh , you got it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right here we are .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Is it on ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , um . In order to see what the functional requirements were to be found , um a hundred people were tested in a usability laboratory through just their habits to n know their habits were observed and questionnaires were given out . Um , the findings in in some cases matched what we were talking about . Custome Customers and users don't like the way remote controls look , they don't like the way they feel , they don't think they match their operating behaviour , and an example is what we were talking about , the buttons , they only use ten per cent of the buttons , so later on there's a study of the buttons that they use most and I think we should design according to these buttons . Easy to lose , and R_S_I_ . I don't know what R_S_I_ means . Um the person that did the questionnaire obviously did , I don't have a clue .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , according to the frequency of use and the relevance of each buttons , I have made a list of the buttons that we should focus on in order of importance . So the most important buttons are those to do with channel selection . They're used about a hundred and sixty times per hour . And um yeah so and and people like to zap a lot apparently , so this is the order . Channel selection , teletext , volume , and power . The other ones are the settings , and they're used less than {disfmarker} you know zero point eight to zero point five times per hour , and this means that I think we can we could have like a a button for all the settings , and then , just one , and then from there go on to the audio on the screen , either on the remote or on the television . Um , about the screen , and speech recognition , some people are more willing than others to actually pay for that . And if we look at the market , f people from well from fifteen to thirty five year old year olds , I don't really know how to describe this , um ninety one to seventy six percent of people in that age range are willing to pay more for this sort of product , while people that are above thirty five years ol um years old go from thirty five percent to eight percent , so people that are sixty five for example wouldn't actually pay for this sort of thing . Um I don't I don't know um what the decision to be made is , but I think that the people that actually do buy remotes m more are those like teenagers and young professionals and um , most likely , but we should discuss this together . {vocalsound} And that's all I have to say about the matter , {vocalsound} um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Shall I {disfmarker} what do I do ? Do I give this to someone else ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just move right on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . So get this . Okay so now I need to press F_ eight , what is it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh function F_ eight .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Function F_ eight .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay . What's function ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the little blue {disfmarker} w it's the one {disfmarker} th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh function , I see it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah should be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There we go . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It should be {gap} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Um . This my presentation about the uh technical functions design and I basically just tried to focus on um {vocalsound} just what what functions we need and how to make that the best function for the user . So uh and I just sort of like thought about it myself and looked on the internet {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And okay so basically um {vocalsound} I think i uh like it is really important that we sort of get this done in a user friendly and fashionable way . Um {vocalsound} so I think things like uh you know keeping buttons together that {disfmarker} like close together that um {vocalsound} are used in the same way , uh {vocalsound} or um maybe that making 'em the same colour , keeping the number of buttons the uh leas you know to a minimum , and also things like is it is it um is it uh {disfmarker} can you c y small enough large enough I'm not sure we c I guess we would need to do some research about , I would , about what size is appropriate and that sort of thing , um but basically we need to make sure that it turns on and off the T_V_ . Does it have like capacity to change the channels ? Um {vocalsound} does it do {disfmarker} or do we need to have like functions for cable or V_C_R_ ? And then , is it findable , and uh how do we wanna do that ? And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I just thought that these two remotes were pretty boring , um I dunno if this will work but {disfmarker} And I think we can find something that's more fun to look at and use than either of those . {vocalsound} Just I mean I like the one on the right better , just because it does have fewer buttons , uh but I mean I think we sh can sort of think about things like um {vocalsound} like colour and you know size , shapes , that sort of thing , to best fit the user . {vocalsound} That concludes my presentation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . You need the little thingy . Ooh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How do I um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S That's on view .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay so this is on the working design , which is sort of the uh mechanical functions of the remote , um and the method I used was to basically look at existing designs and incorporate ideas from our last meeting . Um so I think we need two basic functions which is just the basic remote functions , the user can input a channel or volume setting and it will be output to the T_V_ . And also we talked about um a location function where maybe you could press a button on the T_V_ and it would send sort of signal to the remote where it would beep or flash or vibrate or whatever to tell you where the remote is . So the components we need are an energy source to power the remote , um input which would probably be buttons , although um we just talked about voice recognition , processor to take the information , um something to transmit it to the T_V_ , and we also need something on the remote that would receive the location signal and have an output , like possibly a beep or a vibration . And also you need a sender for location signal , which would probably be a separate um thing that we'd have to sell with the remote and people could stick it on their T_V_ or stick it on their wall . And this is just sort of an overview of how the remote works . Power comes from the battery , goes to the chip , um and then it is sent from there to an infrared bulb which is probably the easiest way to send to the T_V_ . And then for the location function , you would have a sender on the T_V_ which would output some sort of signal , um we could use I_R_ but we'd probably wanna use radio instead . That signal would go to a receiver which it would process it , and it would be output in the form of a buzzer or a light lighting up . Um so my personal preferences for how to build the remote would probably be uh , battery for the energy source , that way you wouldn't have to plug it in , um a button pad for input , um we can purchase a pre-made chip which will handle all the processing stuff , I_R_ transmitter to communicate to the T_V_ , that's just sort of standard , um so most T_V_s have an I_R_ receiver . Probably a radio receiver to send out location function and to receive it and I'd probably say a buzzer for the location function on the remote itself . So that concludes my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you know about like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno , you seem like you know about {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh I d I was an engineer before I came here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well thank you everybody . Um {vocalsound} we have {disfmarker} we'll discuss that and then I just wanna mention some new project requirements that came in . Um , teletext is apparently outdated , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} due to internet popularity , so that's off the list . Um ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "also our remote should be used only for television , um , no extra internet kinda fancy things , just the remote and the television . Um and also we need to incorporate our corporate image onto this , so um the phrase is , we put fashion in electronics , so let's be fashionable I guess . Um if we have something {disfmarker} I mean silver and and gold or yellow are our colours , so if we had a like a kind of silver one like you saw , and yellow writing , something like that . Okay . Um . So we need to make some decisions on the remote control functions . Um , yeah . {vocalsound} Do {disfmarker} Let's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I guess we should yeah make some kind of brainstorming , see what we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like in terms of", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How it looks or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "how it looks , or like what it does ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "wha what {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} well probably our target group and how it's gonna going to appeal to our target group and I dunno the the s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the buttons and what it does and that sort of thing . So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . So {disfmarker} Is our target group then people {disfmarker} so do we wanna go ahead and design this thing with the finder button ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think that seems to {disfmarker} yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's easy to implement .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} the the buzzer you mean ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Locator .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , for sure , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So then our target age group would be the nineteen to thirty five range ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , teenagers and young professionals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what was it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well that's for speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And screen . That's only for speech recognition and screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I was thinking about that but uh I mean speech recognition is really hard to programme ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and also , if the T_V_ is on it's making sound and the people on the T_V_ are talking , and if somebody says like one , then the T_V_'s gonna switch itself to channel one ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} it seems like a silly ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not sure how you would implement it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I just put the values {vocalsound} in .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if if you consider our budget , it probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um the screen is the same as what , {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a cool idea but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "if you consider our budget , to h have speech recognition programmed in every single remote might be a little pricey .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'm happy with that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right so um {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hu yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Completely .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay so are we gonna have just some kind of a {disfmarker} like we'll have the buzzer on the som like on the T_V_ itself .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well you would have to have a button on a T_V_ or on your wall or some place {gap} since the T_V_ already has power .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah you click the button , it's gonna send out a signal , and I was thinking , I_R_ is line of sight , so unless the remote is like actually in front of the T_V_ it's not gonna work , um so probably like a radio signal like on a on a cell phone .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sends out a signal and then the the remote hears the signal and so it beeps probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you you'd need like a separate base for that or like something you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It would have to be sold separately because if the sender's on the remote then you'd have to find the remote first to click the button to find the remote {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "right . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So do you plug it in the T_ {disfmarker} you plug it in T_V_ , this thing ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it'd probably just stick it on your T_V_ so if you need to find the remote , click the button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it's now like a two-part thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , so it would be a two part package .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we get to design that too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Make it fashionable . Um , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So do you think even though we're not talking about speek speech recognition our target group should still be teenagers and young professionals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Are we um should that thing be on the {vocalsound} thing to put the {disfmarker} you s you talking about a home for it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you still want to build a little thing next to the telly or to p hang on the wall or shall we leave that for now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We probably leave that . I mean I guess one takes care of the other , like um if you can yeah if you can call it then it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Then it can live anywhere .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . For the {disfmarker} so you have that button , that {disfmarker} so there's {disfmarker} is there a light or shall we leave just have a radio ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um on the T_V_ or on the phone ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are we just having a radio ? On the phone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um it seemed like a {disfmarker} a beep seemed the most reasonable to me ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "T", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You don't need a light . Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think that's what the phone has ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean when you need to find your phone , you just have someone call it {vocalsound} and it starts ringing somewhere and then you can figure out that it's in the couch or wherever .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And like if the if the phone's under the couch , you might not see the light , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can hear it's under the couch yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So i Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , {vocalsound} {gap} So need the other buttons . So we have this {disfmarker} mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I mean the two remotes that you had shown r I don't remember who showed them {vocalsound} , yeah you you did um ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That was that was me .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "they're {disfmarker} I mean one looked like it was for V_C_R_ type thing , and the other looked like just television .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think w I think they're both sort of just like general remo they're both general remotes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh really . 'Cause that that is something we have to decide , is whether we want to have V_C_R_ capabilities .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does anyone know if V_C_R_s are the same across {disfmarker} international ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're not {disfmarker} no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're not , no .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so you'd need like a whole different set of buttons for everybody's V_C_R_s .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It not V_H_S_ here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But D_V_D_ probably is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , other than that region and coding thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and if we're if we're targeting young professionals and teenagers , I mean it's gonna be D_V_D_ type , that's the the technology these days .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But V_C_R_s {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , for sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . Okay , let's see if I can {disfmarker} I think still though , it shouldn't be that hard to take {disfmarker} like just reduce the number of buttons you know ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "like 'cause if you just have like one menu button , that works like with a you know , or you can just kind of scroll through the options u that come up on the T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well for sure we need the um {disfmarker} I think we can just design the channels ? I mean power's just a button , and it's not used that much ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "s and it's usually that red", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I think it's quite nice to keep it like red .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know , I've seen some remotes that {disfmarker} where you just hold one , like if you hold one down it's it's a different colour than the other buttons but that turns it on . So you don't actually have a separate power button , it's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It seems like that would be hard though .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , like because unless you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It might be confusing . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . Just 'cause I wouldn't {disfmarker} I would probably pick it up and just be like uh why is there no on button . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Besides you like to be able to go power .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I never think to hold something down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I have the power {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . B {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I guess . So we definitely want a power button and numbers . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well even um iPod thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , like um , I don't know if people like this but if you want to reduce the number , of buttons , instead of having like one to nine , have a sort of", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That sort of like joystick flat touch thing , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "scrolling {disfmarker} I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Because people li seem {disfmarker} now the iPod's out people seem to like this thing that there's no {disfmarker} Know you don't have one two three four five {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . I think that's an interesting idea , 'cause it's cool ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's it's funny like you f like I just {disfmarker} I don't have an iPod but like I , you know , I just like started messing around with one of my friend's the other day , and you just sort of and {disfmarker} it's funny how you pick it up and you just figure out how to use it quite easily , like it's not that hard , you know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , it's just {disfmarker} and it's one thing which has everything .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and it is {disfmarker} yeah . It is really {disfmarker} but do you need a screen then , do you have to have a screen then ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well can't it tell the {disfmarker} like can't you {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can have the number going around in the corner .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you can have the number on the telly going like one two three four five once you scroll and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Okay so we have this like scrolling sort of button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh that's gonna {disfmarker} Is that like on on a mouse pad where like kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a disc . Yeah . Yeah . It's like {disfmarker} it's just like the same technology as a mouse pad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay . I've never used one . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like l this {disfmarker} like that , and then you do that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah and then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And then you can have um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you actually just want to zap , you can have like a thing {vocalsound} like that , and that , and then it can just be plus and minus .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So like it's like a little part of the circle that {disfmarker} Or it {disfmarker} oh so it's just a region of the circle that you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well i", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "zap .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , click o actually click on to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We could we could even have four buttons , like , if that's the if that's the mouse , you could have the volume and the channel changers just like on that as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . So volume could be like the top it and the bottom {disfmarker} So do you need to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Doesn't it rotate though ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so it'll be moving around .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well y you have to you have to like be able to change the function of it to like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What do you mean the function ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean like okay , 'cause so {disfmarker} I dunno , I guess {disfmarker} Okay {disfmarker} so when you g scroll your thumb like around it , it'll s like say you're go you're going clockwise . That that means you're gonna go up the channels , and then you scroll the other way and it'll go down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so if you wanna switch to the {disfmarker} to u do you have to switch to a function where like y so you're either in that mode or you're in the mode where like it just has like the four like you know this is channel that way , that's that way and volume is up and down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but it knows for some reason .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The iPod knows .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It just kno {vocalsound} the iPod knows . {vocalsound} S", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} If it works on an iPod then it works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . So you just you just can either do this or like you can just touch it if you want .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't have one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well for the volume you have to press the middle , and then go up .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . That's what I mean . Okay . Okay so you have to like press this middle region and then you can scroll up , go up and down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's like holding {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} well if you do that it goes , but if you {disfmarker} like that makes more sense 'cause there's already ones with up and down here , that I've seen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can {disfmarker} o And you you {disfmarker} is there an extra actual button ? Or are you actually {disfmarker} you're just using the mouse to go up and down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like a b", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "for the iPod you press an {disfmarker} w right if you're on the channel let's say , then you press on the middle and then if you do that again the volume goes up , and if you do that it goes down .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Right . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you wanna keep it with volume here and here , I'm pretty sure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well I mean if if you're gonna this for channels , right , then y wouldn't the volume need to be separate somehow ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like you could just have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you could click and then have it up and down ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh you could actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we can go on the fact that it does just work with the iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the only thing is like , iPods are so expensive , like , it has to be {disfmarker} is that part of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that what makes them expensi I think it's all of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , I dunno , I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they have so much memory though , that's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You don't think so ? Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't think it's the wheel dealy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think it's the uh h it's their capabili I mean they {disfmarker} it can hold what like five thousand songs or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I'm thinking we could {disfmarker} if if we're hav So ba I mean but an iPod just has that circle thing you know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And they're re-programmable aren't they ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can put on your songs and then put on a different set ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's probably why they're expensive , they're like little computers .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well like since it just has the circle thing , you could make it a qui a kind of cool shape , like it could be a cool sort of you know , because it could be circular , you know , or something weird like that , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Well it could just be simple instead of being a l mass . Because , the other thing , I didn't tell you all my presentation {vocalsound} , is that people find it {disfmarker} find that it's a big waste of time to have to learn how to use your remote", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and that's another thing they complained about .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , what other buttons were there ? Volume {disfmarker} oh we've ts just said that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Channel selection .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is just for T_V_ , it's not for {disfmarker} or it is {disfmarker} does need to be compatible with {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} A D_V_D_ is simple , you just have play , pause , eject ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know actually our our new project requirements , I'm not sure if they meant o onl use only for television as in not for D_V_D_ or just not internet type things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So how do you switch {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Menu .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and menu maybe . Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'll I'll check that and update you on the next {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So like if we had that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But we'll hold off on that 'cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But s yeah uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But D_V_D_ players usually have their own remote .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's true , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , I know I'm not c really clear on what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's cool to have it all on one , because you wanna turn it on then you wanna turn up the volume , and then you wanna go to the menu , so you don't wanna switch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you'd have to have like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} you would have to have like a function switch button , you know somewhere so like you can {disfmarker} you're either on T_V_ , you're on D_V_D_ or you're on V_C_R_ , or you're like . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well but D_V_D_ is only like four buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is only fun", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I mean like to switch the fun so like to switch the function of the little circle disc , the touch pad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But i Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . But I think the circle only does {disfmarker} channel isn't applicable to D_V_D_ really 'cause you don't wanna {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but volume is and volume is actually controlled on the T_V_ so you don't have to switch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} but I'm saying like , does it make sense to have like some kind of a button , so like you're {disfmarker} if you're on T_V_ , like you can switch channels , but then if uh if you're on D_V_D_ then like the channel bu like the the region of the disc that was for channels is for like switching to different tracks or s you know , to different {disfmarker} I mean do we need to think about that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , yeah , let's think about it", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes we can try that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause we need to wrap up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay so we'll try to zip through this , since we're short on time . Welcome everybody . Um hope your sessions went well . Um so this is our functional design meeting , we're going to consider um user needs , technical effects , and the working design of our remote control . Um I've been taking meetings on the minute minutes on the meetings {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , and I'll be putting them in the shared documents folder so if there's anything you need to refer to you can find them in there . Um I I'll get the ones up for next time , um they're not finished yet . Right . Um so can we have updates from everyone from what you've worked on just kind of a quick summary of anything interesting that you'd like to share or discuss in this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I can start if you want . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "sure .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is there an order ? No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hm ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We haven't decided on an order .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , any any order's fine . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "First . Okay . Um , how do I put this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'll just put the cable in .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} Is that it ? Can you see ? {vocalsound} Oh , here . Okay . So what happens it doesn't work ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It sh it takes a few seconds I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You may need to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Who's that ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But sometimes you have to do it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Is it in the right thing ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's like a three set setting cycle , so press it a couple times , hold down function and then press F_ eight .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh wait , um . Uh . You need to help me . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh-huh , and then press function .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and F_ eight .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Could you just plug it back into hers because she had {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , wait .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's {disfmarker} is that it ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Adjusting .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Here we are . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The cable might be a little loose or something . Oh , you got it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right here we are .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Is it on ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We're here .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , um . In order to see what the functional requirements were to be found , um a hundred people were tested in a usability laboratory through just their habits to n know their habits were observed and questionnaires were given out . Um , the findings in in some cases matched what we were talking about . Custome Customers and users don't like the way remote controls look , they don't like the way they feel , they don't think they match their operating behaviour , and an example is what we were talking about , the buttons , they only use ten per cent of the buttons , so later on there's a study of the buttons that they use most and I think we should design according to these buttons . Easy to lose , and R_S_I_ . I don't know what R_S_I_ means . Um the person that did the questionnaire obviously did , I don't have a clue .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , according to the frequency of use and the relevance of each buttons , I have made a list of the buttons that we should focus on in order of importance . So the most important buttons are those to do with channel selection . They're used about a hundred and sixty times per hour . And um yeah so and and people like to zap a lot apparently , so this is the order . Channel selection , teletext , volume , and power . The other ones are the settings , and they're used less than {disfmarker} you know zero point eight to zero point five times per hour , and this means that I think we can we could have like a a button for all the settings , and then , just one , and then from there go on to the audio on the screen , either on the remote or on the television . Um , about the screen , and speech recognition , some people are more willing than others to actually pay for that . And if we look at the market , f people from well from fifteen to thirty five year old year olds , I don't really know how to describe this , um ninety one to seventy six percent of people in that age range are willing to pay more for this sort of product , while people that are above thirty five years ol um years old go from thirty five percent to eight percent , so people that are sixty five for example wouldn't actually pay for this sort of thing . Um I don't I don't know um what the decision to be made is , but I think that the people that actually do buy remotes m more are those like teenagers and young professionals and um , most likely , but we should discuss this together . {vocalsound} And that's all I have to say about the matter , {vocalsound} um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Shall I {disfmarker} what do I do ? Do I give this to someone else ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just move right on .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . So get this . Okay so now I need to press F_ eight , what is it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh function F_ eight .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Function F_ eight .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay . What's function ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the little blue {disfmarker} w it's the one {disfmarker} th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh function , I see it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah should be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There we go . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It should be {gap} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Um . This my presentation about the uh technical functions design and I basically just tried to focus on um {vocalsound} just what what functions we need and how to make that the best function for the user . So uh and I just sort of like thought about it myself and looked on the internet {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And okay so basically um {vocalsound} I think i uh like it is really important that we sort of get this done in a user friendly and fashionable way . Um {vocalsound} so I think things like uh you know keeping buttons together that {disfmarker} like close together that um {vocalsound} are used in the same way , uh {vocalsound} or um maybe that making 'em the same colour , keeping the number of buttons the uh leas you know to a minimum , and also things like is it is it um is it uh {disfmarker} can you c y small enough large enough I'm not sure we c I guess we would need to do some research about , I would , about what size is appropriate and that sort of thing , um but basically we need to make sure that it turns on and off the T_V_ . Does it have like capacity to change the channels ? Um {vocalsound} does it do {disfmarker} or do we need to have like functions for cable or V_C_R_ ? And then , is it findable , and uh how do we wanna do that ? And um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I just thought that these two remotes were pretty boring , um I dunno if this will work but {disfmarker} And I think we can find something that's more fun to look at and use than either of those . {vocalsound} Just I mean I like the one on the right better , just because it does have fewer buttons , uh but I mean I think we sh can sort of think about things like um {vocalsound} like colour and you know size , shapes , that sort of thing , to best fit the user . {vocalsound} That concludes my presentation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . You need the little thingy . Ooh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How do I um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S That's on view .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay so this is on the working design , which is sort of the uh mechanical functions of the remote , um and the method I used was to basically look at existing designs and incorporate ideas from our last meeting . Um so I think we need two basic functions which is just the basic remote functions , the user can input a channel or volume setting and it will be output to the T_V_ . And also we talked about um a location function where maybe you could press a button on the T_V_ and it would send sort of signal to the remote where it would beep or flash or vibrate or whatever to tell you where the remote is . So the components we need are an energy source to power the remote , um input which would probably be buttons , although um we just talked about voice recognition , processor to take the information , um something to transmit it to the T_V_ , and we also need something on the remote that would receive the location signal and have an output , like possibly a beep or a vibration . And also you need a sender for location signal , which would probably be a separate um thing that we'd have to sell with the remote and people could stick it on their T_V_ or stick it on their wall . And this is just sort of an overview of how the remote works . Power comes from the battery , goes to the chip , um and then it is sent from there to an infrared bulb which is probably the easiest way to send to the T_V_ . And then for the location function , you would have a sender on the T_V_ which would output some sort of signal , um we could use I_R_ but we'd probably wanna use radio instead . That signal would go to a receiver which it would process it , and it would be output in the form of a buzzer or a light lighting up . Um so my personal preferences for how to build the remote would probably be uh , battery for the energy source , that way you wouldn't have to plug it in , um a button pad for input , um we can purchase a pre-made chip which will handle all the processing stuff , I_R_ transmitter to communicate to the T_V_ , that's just sort of standard , um so most T_V_s have an I_R_ receiver . Probably a radio receiver to send out location function and to receive it and I'd probably say a buzzer for the location function on the remote itself . So that concludes my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you know about like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I dunno , you seem like you know about {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh I d I was an engineer before I came here .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Cool . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well thank you everybody . Um {vocalsound} we have {disfmarker} we'll discuss that and then I just wanna mention some new project requirements that came in . Um , teletext is apparently outdated , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} due to internet popularity , so that's off the list . Um ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "also our remote should be used only for television , um , no extra internet kinda fancy things , just the remote and the television . Um and also we need to incorporate our corporate image onto this , so um the phrase is , we put fashion in electronics , so let's be fashionable I guess . Um if we have something {disfmarker} I mean silver and and gold or yellow are our colours , so if we had a like a kind of silver one like you saw , and yellow writing , something like that . Okay . Um . So we need to make some decisions on the remote control functions . Um , yeah . {vocalsound} Do {disfmarker} Let's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I guess we should yeah make some kind of brainstorming , see what we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like in terms of", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How it looks or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "how it looks , or like what it does ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "wha what {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} well probably our target group and how it's gonna going to appeal to our target group and I dunno the the s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the buttons and what it does and that sort of thing . So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . So {disfmarker} Is our target group then people {disfmarker} so do we wanna go ahead and design this thing with the finder button ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think that seems to {disfmarker} yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's easy to implement .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} the the buzzer you mean ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Locator .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , for sure , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So then our target age group would be the nineteen to thirty five range ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , teenagers and young professionals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what was it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well that's for speech recognition .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And screen . That's only for speech recognition and screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I was thinking about that but uh I mean speech recognition is really hard to programme ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and also , if the T_V_ is on it's making sound and the people on the T_V_ are talking , and if somebody says like one , then the T_V_'s gonna switch itself to channel one ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} it seems like a silly ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm not sure how you would implement it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I just put the values {vocalsound} in .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And if if you consider our budget , it probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But um the screen is the same as what , {gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's a cool idea but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "if you consider our budget , to h have speech recognition programmed in every single remote might be a little pricey .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'm happy with that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right so um {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hu yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Completely .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay so are we gonna have just some kind of a {disfmarker} like we'll have the buzzer on the som like on the T_V_ itself .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well you would have to have a button on a T_V_ or on your wall or some place {gap} since the T_V_ already has power .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah you click the button , it's gonna send out a signal , and I was thinking , I_R_ is line of sight , so unless the remote is like actually in front of the T_V_ it's not gonna work , um so probably like a radio signal like on a on a cell phone .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sends out a signal and then the the remote hears the signal and so it beeps probably .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you you'd need like a separate base for that or like something you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It would have to be sold separately because if the sender's on the remote then you'd have to find the remote first to click the button to find the remote {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "right . Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So do you plug it in the T_ {disfmarker} you plug it in T_V_ , this thing ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it'd probably just stick it on your T_V_ so if you need to find the remote , click the button .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So it's now like a two-part thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , so it would be a two part package .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we get to design that too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Make it fashionable . Um , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So do you think even though we're not talking about speek speech recognition our target group should still be teenagers and young professionals .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just there .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm . Are we um should that thing be on the {vocalsound} thing to put the {disfmarker} you s you talking about a home for it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Do you still want to build a little thing next to the telly or to p hang on the wall or shall we leave that for now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "We probably leave that . I mean I guess one takes care of the other , like um if you can yeah if you can call it then it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Then it can live anywhere .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . For the {disfmarker} so you have that button , that {disfmarker} so there's {disfmarker} is there a light or shall we leave just have a radio ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um on the T_V_ or on the phone ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Are we just having a radio ? On the phone .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um it seemed like a {disfmarker} a beep seemed the most reasonable to me ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "T", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You don't need a light . Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think that's what the phone has ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean when you need to find your phone , you just have someone call it {vocalsound} and it starts ringing somewhere and then you can figure out that it's in the couch or wherever .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And like if the if the phone's under the couch , you might not see the light , so", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can hear it's under the couch yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So i Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , {vocalsound} {gap} So need the other buttons . So we have this {disfmarker} mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I mean the two remotes that you had shown r I don't remember who showed them {vocalsound} , yeah you you did um ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That was that was me .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "they're {disfmarker} I mean one looked like it was for V_C_R_ type thing , and the other looked like just television .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think w I think they're both sort of just like general remo they're both general remotes .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh really . 'Cause that that is something we have to decide , is whether we want to have V_C_R_ capabilities .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Does anyone know if V_C_R_s are the same across {disfmarker} international ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They're not {disfmarker} no .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "They're not , no .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so you'd need like a whole different set of buttons for everybody's V_C_R_s .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's right , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It not V_H_S_ here ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But D_V_D_ probably is .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , other than that region and coding thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And and if we're if we're targeting young professionals and teenagers , I mean it's gonna be D_V_D_ type , that's the the technology these days .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But V_C_R_s {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , for sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . So . Okay , let's see if I can {disfmarker} I think still though , it shouldn't be that hard to take {disfmarker} like just reduce the number of buttons you know ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "like 'cause if you just have like one menu button , that works like with a you know , or you can just kind of scroll through the options u that come up on the T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well for sure we need the um {disfmarker} I think we can just design the channels ? I mean power's just a button , and it's not used that much ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "s and it's usually that red", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and I think it's quite nice to keep it like red .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know , I've seen some remotes that {disfmarker} where you just hold one , like if you hold one down it's it's a different colour than the other buttons but that turns it on . So you don't actually have a separate power button , it's just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It seems like that would be hard though .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , like because unless you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It might be confusing . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah . Just 'cause I wouldn't {disfmarker} I would probably pick it up and just be like uh why is there no on button . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Besides you like to be able to go power .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I never think to hold something down . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I have the power {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . B {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I guess . So we definitely want a power button and numbers . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well even um iPod thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} , like um , I don't know if people like this but if you want to reduce the number , of buttons , instead of having like one to nine , have a sort of", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That sort of like joystick flat touch thing , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "scrolling {disfmarker} I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Because people li seem {disfmarker} now the iPod's out people seem to like this thing that there's no {disfmarker} Know you don't have one two three four five {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . I think that's an interesting idea , 'cause it's cool ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "it's it's funny like you f like I just {disfmarker} I don't have an iPod but like I , you know , I just like started messing around with one of my friend's the other day , and you just sort of and {disfmarker} it's funny how you pick it up and you just figure out how to use it quite easily , like it's not that hard , you know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , it's just {disfmarker} and it's one thing which has everything .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , and it is {disfmarker} yeah . It is really {disfmarker} but do you need a screen then , do you have to have a screen then ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well can't it tell the {disfmarker} like can't you {disfmarker} if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can have the number going around in the corner .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you can have the number on the telly going like one two three four five once you scroll and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Okay so we have this like scrolling sort of button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh that's gonna {disfmarker} Is that like on on a mouse pad where like kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like a disc . Yeah . Yeah . It's like {disfmarker} it's just like the same technology as a mouse pad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay . I've never used one . No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like l this {disfmarker} like that , and then you do that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah and then .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And then you can have um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} if you actually just want to zap , you can have like a thing {vocalsound} like that , and that , and then it can just be plus and minus .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So like it's like a little part of the circle that {disfmarker} Or it {disfmarker} oh so it's just a region of the circle that you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , you can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well i", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "zap .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , click o actually click on to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "We could we could even have four buttons , like , if that's the if that's the mouse , you could have the volume and the channel changers just like on that as well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . So volume could be like the top it and the bottom {disfmarker} So do you need to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Doesn't it rotate though ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so it'll be moving around .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well y you have to you have to like be able to change the function of it to like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What do you mean the function ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean like okay , 'cause so {disfmarker} I dunno , I guess {disfmarker} Okay {disfmarker} so when you g scroll your thumb like around it , it'll s like say you're go you're going clockwise . That that means you're gonna go up the channels , and then you scroll the other way and it'll go down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so if you wanna switch to the {disfmarker} to u do you have to switch to a function where like y so you're either in that mode or you're in the mode where like it just has like the four like you know this is channel that way , that's that way and volume is up and down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah but it knows for some reason .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The iPod knows .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It just kno {vocalsound} the iPod knows . {vocalsound} S", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} If it works on an iPod then it works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . So you just you just can either do this or like you can just touch it if you want .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't have one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well for the volume you have to press the middle , and then go up .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . That's what I mean . Okay . Okay so you have to like press this middle region and then you can scroll up , go up and down .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's like holding {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} well if you do that it goes , but if you {disfmarker} like that makes more sense 'cause there's already ones with up and down here , that I've seen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can {disfmarker} o And you you {disfmarker} is there an extra actual button ? Or are you actually {disfmarker} you're just using the mouse to go up and down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's like a b", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "for the iPod you press an {disfmarker} w right if you're on the channel let's say , then you press on the middle and then if you do that again the volume goes up , and if you do that it goes down .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Right . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you wanna keep it with volume here and here , I'm pretty sure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well I mean if if you're gonna this for channels , right , then y wouldn't the volume need to be separate somehow ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like you could just have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you could click and then have it up and down ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh you could actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we can go on the fact that it does just work with the iPod .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the only thing is like , iPods are so expensive , like , it has to be {disfmarker} is that part of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Is that what makes them expensi I think it's all of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , I dunno , I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they have so much memory though , that's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You don't think so ? Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't think it's the wheel dealy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think it's the uh h it's their capabili I mean they {disfmarker} it can hold what like five thousand songs or something .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I'm thinking we could {disfmarker} if if we're hav So ba I mean but an iPod just has that circle thing you know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And they're re-programmable aren't they ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You can put on your songs and then put on a different set ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's probably why they're expensive , they're like little computers .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "S", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well like since it just has the circle thing , you could make it a qui a kind of cool shape , like it could be a cool sort of you know , because it could be circular , you know , or something weird like that , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Well it could just be simple instead of being a l mass . Because , the other thing , I didn't tell you all my presentation {vocalsound} , is that people find it {disfmarker} find that it's a big waste of time to have to learn how to use your remote", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and that's another thing they complained about .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , what other buttons were there ? Volume {disfmarker} oh we've ts just said that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Channel selection .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is just for T_V_ , it's not for {disfmarker} or it is {disfmarker} does need to be compatible with {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} A D_V_D_ is simple , you just have play , pause , eject ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You know actually our our new project requirements , I'm not sure if they meant o onl use only for television as in not for D_V_D_ or just not internet type things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So how do you switch {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Menu .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and menu maybe . Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'll I'll check that and update you on the next {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So like if we had that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But we'll hold off on that 'cause {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But s yeah uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But D_V_D_ players usually have their own remote .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's true , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , I know I'm not c really clear on what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's cool to have it all on one , because you wanna turn it on then you wanna turn up the volume , and then you wanna go to the menu , so you don't wanna switch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you'd have to have like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} you would have to have like a function switch button , you know somewhere so like you can {disfmarker} you're either on T_V_ , you're on D_V_D_ or you're on V_C_R_ , or you're like . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well but D_V_D_ is only like four buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is only fun", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but I mean like to switch the fun so like to switch the function of the little circle disc , the touch pad .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But i Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . But I think the circle only does {disfmarker} channel isn't applicable to D_V_D_ really 'cause you don't wanna {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it would be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but volume is and volume is actually controlled on the T_V_ so you don't have to switch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} but I'm saying like , does it make sense to have like some kind of a button , so like you're {disfmarker} if you're on T_V_ , like you can switch channels , but then if uh if you're on D_V_D_ then like the channel bu like the the region of the disc that was for channels is for like switching to different tracks or s you know , to different {disfmarker} I mean do we need to think about that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , yeah , let's think about it", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes we can try that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause we need to wrap up .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Uh , is it the twenty - fourth ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "now we 're on .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh Chuck , is the mike type wireless {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "wireless headset ? OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "For you it is .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . We uh {disfmarker} we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too {disfmarker} not too hot , not too cold , they were {disfmarker} you know , they were {vocalsound} uh , far enough away that you got more background noise , uh , and uh {disfmarker} and so forth", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but they weren't so close that they got quite the {disfmarker} you know , the really good {disfmarker} No , th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "they {disfmarker} I mean they didn't {disfmarker} Wait a minute . I 'm saying that wrong . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . So it was no {disfmarker} didn't seem to be a good point to them . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "There 's uh , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel uh , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we {disfmarker} there seemed to be very strong opinions for uh , getting rid of lapels .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The mike number is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . One .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then the channel number 's usually one less than that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . So you should be zero , actually .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hello ? Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "For your uh , channel number .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep , yep .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . no , they don't {disfmarker} don't have a {disfmarker} have any Indian pronunciations .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So what we usually do is um , we typically will have our meetings", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then at the end of the meetings we 'll read the digits . Everybody goes around and reads the digits on the {disfmarker} the bottom of their forms .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Session R", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "R - nineteen ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "R - nineteen .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . We 're {disfmarker} This is session R - nineteen .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you say so . O K . Do we have anything like an agenda ? What 's going on ? Um . I guess um . So . One thing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer , right . Um , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe uh , and then just uh , I guess uh , progress reports individually , and then uh , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . Um .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I could say a few words about um , some of the uh , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Why don't you start with that ? That 's sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "We um {disfmarker} So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , uh , to use as sort of a compute farm . And um , uh , we ordered uh , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and um , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , uh , in addition , we 're running {disfmarker} So the plan for using these is , uh , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all uh , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to um , {vocalsound} run things using P - make and Customs . You don't actually have to write P - make scripts and things like that . The simplest thing {disfmarker} And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "How about an email that points to the FAQ ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "there 's a c", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "you know what I 'm saying ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "so that you can {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , there 's a command , uh , that you can use called \" run command \" . \" Run dash command \" , \" run hyphen command \" . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , uh , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and uh {disfmarker} and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can try this as a simple test with uh , the L S command . So you can say \" run dash command L S \" , and , um , it 'll actually export that {vocalsound} LS command to some machine in the institute , and um , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and um {disfmarker} And that 's a simple way to get started using {disfmarker} using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , {vocalsound} um , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that uh , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . Uh , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like \" run command \" , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . So . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . Each machine has an attribute which is the name of itself . So you can give that as an attribute and it 'll only run on that . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and uh , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're {disfmarker} Uh . The SRI recognizer has all this P - make customs stuff built into it .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "is the rough division of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Exactly . Yeah , you know , I {disfmarker} I sort of got started {comment} using the recognizer just recently and uh , uh I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , \" uh , are you running two {vocalsound} trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . \" So I had to back off a little bit . But , soon as we get some more machines then uh {disfmarker} then we 'll have more compute available . So , um , that 's just a quick update about what we 've got . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , I have {disfmarker} I have a question about the uh , parallelization ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , um , let 's say I have like , a thousand little {disfmarker} little jobs to do ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , how do I do it with \" run command \" ? I mean do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "You could write a script uh , which called run command on each sub - job", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . A thousand times ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "because um , you don't wanna saturate the network . Uh , so , um , you know , you should {disfmarker} you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , uh , just because then it would keep other people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , too much file transfer and stuff .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with {disfmarker} if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . Um . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , um , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use \" run command \" , uh , to only have ten of those going at a time . And uh , then , when one of those finished you 'd fire off another one . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I remember I {disfmarker} I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or {disfmarker} or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were {disfmarker} everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and {vocalsound} and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yep . Yeah , exactly . Yeah , you have to be a little bit careful .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "as I recall , but . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , but uh , you can also {disfmarker} If you have that level of parallelization um , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in {disfmarker} in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use um , P - make", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Just do P - make .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and you basically write a Make file that uh , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "s Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and when you run P - make , uh , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and {disfmarker} and then a number ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and that number represents how many uh , machines to use at once . And then it 'll make sure that it never goes above that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "I can get some documentation .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not systematically queued . I mean all the jobs are running . If you launch twenty jobs , they are all running . Alright .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It depends . If you {disfmarker} \" Run command \" , that I mentioned before , is {disfmarker} doesn't know about other things that you might be running .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and they wouldn't know about each other . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and it can control , uh , how many it runs simultaneously .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So \" run command \" doesn't use P - make , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It uses \" export \" underlyingly . But , if you {disfmarker} i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know {disfmarker} any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So why would one use that rather than P - make ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Well , if you have , um {disfmarker} Like , for example , uh if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , uh {disfmarker} an HTK training job that you know is gonna take uh , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , uh , the machine you typically use , you can say \" run command \" and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and {disfmarker} and run your job there .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , there are um {disfmarker} Right . So some of the machines at the institute , um , have this attribute called \" no evict \" . And if you specify that , in {disfmarker} in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and {disfmarker} and they were at lunch ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted {disfmarker} your job {comment} will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . Automatically . So {disfmarker} which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . So . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus {disfmarker} the attribute , you know , \" no evict \" , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , what {disfmarker} what about {disfmarker} I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you {disfmarker} if something required {disfmarker} if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how that works .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , it seems like Andreas did something for that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . We can ask him sometime .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev {disfmarker} dev console or something .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "You probably wouldn't ordinarily , though . Yeah . Right ? You probably wouldn't ordinarily .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean you sort of {disfmarker} you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , \" screw this \" ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so , um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah . I {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} I 'm not sure about that one .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But uh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , I need a little orientation about this environment and uh scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , I think maybe I 'll ask you after the meeting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and also uh , Stephane 's a {disfmarker} a really good resource for that if you can't find me .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yep . OK , sure", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Especially with regard to the Aurora stuff .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He {disfmarker} he knows that stuff better than I do .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . Well , why don't we uh , uh , Sunil since you 're {vocalsound} haven't {disfmarker} haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's {disfmarker} what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah . So , uh , shall I start from {disfmarker} Well I don't know how may I {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} OK . Uh , I think I 'll start from the post uh Aurora submission maybe .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah , after the submission the {disfmarker} what I 've been working on mainly was to take {disfmarker} take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in {disfmarker} in ours . So {disfmarker} So I tried uh , And u First I tried just LDA . And then I found that uh , I mean , if {disfmarker} if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Are y are you saying LDA ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "LDA . OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , just {disfmarker} just the LDA filters . I just plug in {disfmarker} I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . But the LDA filter that I used was different from what we submitted in the proposal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What I did was {vocalsound} I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , uh , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , uh , narrow {disfmarker} narrow band LDA filter that we submitted uh , I got new filters . So that seems to be giving {disfmarker} uh , improving over their uh , system . Slightly . But , not very significantly . And uh , that was uh , showing any improvement over {disfmarker} final {disfmarker} by plugging in an LDA . And uh , so then after {disfmarker} after that I {disfmarker} I added uh , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a {disfmarker} a mean and variance update time constant and {disfmarker} which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But um , I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value {disfmarker} I mean , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . That 's all I found So I have to . Uh , Yeah . And uh , uh , the other {disfmarker} other thing what I tried was , I just um , uh , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf uh th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the {disfmarker} I mean the w speech and nonspeech . And uh , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , can you back up a second , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I missed something , uh , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , uh , uh things got better again ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "or is it ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "No . No , things didn't get better with the same time constant that we used .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Did it not ? No , no . With a different time constant .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "With the different time constant I found that {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "because I {disfmarker} I found that I would have change the value of the update factor .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No you didn't , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But I didn't play it with play {disfmarker} play quite a bit to make it better than .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , it 's still not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I mean , the on - line normalization didn't give me any improvement .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And uh , so ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "oh yeah So I just stopped there with the uh , speech enhancement . The {disfmarker} the other thing what I tried was the {disfmarker} adding the uh , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the {disfmarker} the second {disfmarker} the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , uh , use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So people won't even have to worry about , uh , doing speech - nonspeech then .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's , that 's what the feeling is like . They 're going to give the endpoint information .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "everybody does that ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what {disfmarker} what are the best features that you should use .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean clearly they 're interact . So I don't know that I entirely agree with it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but it might be uh {disfmarker} In some ways it might be better t to {disfmarker} rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But , you know . It 's {disfmarker} it 's still someth reasonable .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , are people supposed to assume that there is uh {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "No . No . That i I {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I guess that is {disfmarker} that is where the consensus is . Like y you will {disfmarker} you will {disfmarker} You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because you don't have the mistakes in it . Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} The baseline itself {disfmarker} I mean , it improves by twenty - two percent . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . w", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean you don't need any further speech enhancement with fifty . So , uh ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So the baseline itself improves by fifty percent .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , by fifty percent .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So it 's g it 's gonna be harder to {vocalsound} beat that actually .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "so that is when uh , the {disfmarker} the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And I think they have {disfmarker} they have actually changed their qualification c criteria now . And uh , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK . No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good {disfmarker} good update .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Ye Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I came back and I started working on uh , some other speech enhancement algorithm . I mean , so {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . These are the main uh , approaches where people have tried ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "so just to {disfmarker} just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I {disfmarker} I 've been working on this uh , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . I have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to test whether it works first or not", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . So , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So {disfmarker} so now you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so we we 'll have a {vocalsound} single place where the stuff is .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cool . Um , so maybe uh , just briefly , you could remind us about the related experiments . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , where you were also combining something {disfmarker} both of you I guess were both combining something from the uh , French Telecom system with {vocalsound} the u uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . It was system one . So", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "we {disfmarker} The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are uh , with noise removed .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I let me {disfmarker} let me just stop you there . So then , one distinction is that uh , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no there is a slight different . Uh I mean , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . But that 's what I mean .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But u u Sorry ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah , I 'm not being {disfmarker} I 'm not being clear .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And so one difference is that , I guess you were taking spectra .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads uh , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like {disfmarker} There may be a slight difference in the way {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "right ? or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . I mean , if we are using our own code for th I mean that {disfmarker} that could be the only difference .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , there is no other difference .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But you got some sort of different result . So I 'm trying to understand it . But uh , I th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , well I think we should uh , have a table with all the result because I don't know I uh , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied uh , proposal - one system after this without {disfmarker} well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the {disfmarker} the LDA filters ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the filter {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Only LDA . Yeah . Af - I {disfmarker} after that I added on - line normalization , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So we just tried directly to {disfmarker} to just , keep the system as it was and , um , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves uh , signif significantly . Um , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because if we keep the value that was submitted uh , it doesn't help at all . You can remove on - line normalization , or put it , it doesn't change anything . Uh , uh , as long as you have the spectral subtraction . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but , uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I assume .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and see where i where the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} where they were different and what we can learn from it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "without any change . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's the new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with changes ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "with", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "because we change it the system to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I mean the {disfmarker} the new LDA filters .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "w Uh , it doesn't seem to hurt on TI - digits , finally .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Maybe because of other changes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , well there are some {vocalsound} minor changes , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , um , always better than {disfmarker} it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . And it 's still slightly worse for well - matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Um , but this is not significant . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , uh , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . Even with very minor {disfmarker} uh , even if it 's only slightly worse for well - matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And significantly better for HM . Uh , but , well . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , uh , uh , mainly because of uh , when you p you plug the um , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and MM ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "so , um , I guess what will happen {disfmarker} I don't know what will happen . But , the different contribution , I think , for the different test set will be more even .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Because the {disfmarker} your improvement on HM and MM will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . But the {pause} the well - matched may still {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the MM {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "MM and HM are going to be v hugely affected by it . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , so um , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But they d the {disfmarker} everything I mean is like , but there that 's how they reduce {disfmarker} why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some {disfmarker} something on .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But are they changing the weighting ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . So there 's nothing on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't understand that .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess I {disfmarker} I haven't been part of the discussion , so , um , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Usual .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "in this case . Unusual .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because , um , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ {disfmarker} particular person 's car is like , or", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It seems like something like the middle one is {disfmarker} is more natural .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So I don't know why the {pause} well - matched is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but actually the well {disfmarker} well the well - matched um , uh , I mean the {disfmarker} the well - matched condition is not like , uh , the one in TI - digits where uh , you have all the training , uh , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . It 's like , this is not calibrated by SNR or something . The well - matched has also some {disfmarker} some mismatch in that which is other than the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The well wa matched has mismatch ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "has {disfmarker} has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Perfect to match .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "because it 's artificially added noise .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But this is natural recording .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So remind me of what well - matched meant ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the well - matched is like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 've told me many times .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , so it means that if the database is large enough , it 's matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because it", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "in each set you have a range of conditions {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So , I mean , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much {disfmarker} You know , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's sort of saying if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not guaranteed though .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , it 's not guaranteed .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah because the m the main {disfmarker} major reason for the m", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Again , if you have enough {disfmarker} if you have enough {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "No yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you {disfmarker} much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , um , you {disfmarker} you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and {disfmarker} and record noise conditions , or something , and then {disfmarker} I don't think that 's very realistic , I mean I th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I you know , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and {disfmarker} and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , So What else is going on ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm . You Yeah . We are playing {disfmarker} we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . Um , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the um , mel energies which I already tested but without the um frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is spectral subtraction typically done on the {disfmarker} after the mel , uh , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Does it matter , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I d I don't know . Well , it 's both {disfmarker} both uh , cases can i", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . So - some of the proposal , uh , we 're doing this on the bin {disfmarker} on the FFT bins ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "others on the um , mel energies . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's {disfmarker} which one might be better or {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't know . Yeah , but", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But for speech recognition , it may not . I mean it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . So you 're going to do a linear weighting anyway after that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , it may not be really a big different .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It I Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , uh , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean they just do the same thing again once more .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So , there 's something that is good about doing it {disfmarker} I mean , to cleaning it up once more .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it might be .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's what", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean maybe one or {disfmarker} one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That 's wh Yeah . So ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "you know ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean just to see all {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "How is it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does {disfmarker} I mean , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're {disfmarker} that you 're adding together the two signals , how is {disfmarker} how is that differ from signal subspace ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The signal subspace ? The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The signal subspace approach has actually an in - built Wiener filtering in it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter . Is the signal is {disfmarker} is a signal substrate .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , oh , OK so the difference is the KL .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the different {disfmarker} the c the {disfmarker} the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . It 's {disfmarker} it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions , and in colored noise .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wiener filtering . It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a cascade of two s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wiener filter . Yeah , in general , you don't {disfmarker} that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . Actually . Um , that was something that uh , Herve and I were talking about with um , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from uh , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Yeah . So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some {disfmarker} something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then do a something in the second stage which could take it further .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What was your point about {disfmarker} about colored noise there ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , the colored noise uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "the colored noise {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the v the signal subspace approach has {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker} it actually depends on inverting the matrices . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} ac the covariance matrix of the noise . So if {disfmarker} if it is not positive definite ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean it has a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So you should do spectral subtraction and then add noise .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then make the noise white ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I was only half kidding . I mean if you {disfmarker} sort of {vocalsound} you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then you {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then add a little bit l noise {disfmarker} noise addition {disfmarker} I mean , that sort of what J {disfmarker} JRASTA does , in a way .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little {disfmarker} adding a little noise ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Huh ? Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "in order to get rid of the effects of noise .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . So there is this . And maybe we {disfmarker} well we find some people so that {vocalsound} uh , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's um , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , {vocalsound} uh f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . So . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a nonlinear eh uh , transformation in the cepstral domain .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And uh , there is a way to approximate this using uh , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for {vocalsound} uh , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Who is doing this ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and another in {pause} uh , Lucent that I met at ICASSP .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Who 's the guy in Grenada ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "uh ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , Jose Carlos Segura .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I don't know him .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "This VTS has been proposed by CMU ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is it the CMU ? Yeah , yeah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Originally the idea was from CMU .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "From C .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Well , it 's again a different thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that could be tried . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , uh , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of uh , noise removal , uh , with {disfmarker} with these other things we have ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh , looks like a worthy thing to {disfmarker} to do here .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah . But , yeah . But for sure there 's required to {disfmarker} that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and , for sure the on - line normalization may be the LDA filter . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well one of the {disfmarker} seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too {disfmarker} or {pause} I guess not next week ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "week and a half , uh , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . Um . You know . So , I mean one way would {disfmarker} he Here are some alternate visions . I mean one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same {disfmarker} different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to {disfmarker} to pick two pol two plausible things , and {disfmarker} and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and then , you know , uh , but , w um , uh , he 'll have some ideas on that too .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The other thing is to , uh {disfmarker} Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we {disfmarker} we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some {disfmarker} I mean , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's {disfmarker} Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we {disfmarker} if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization {pause} to make it work @ @ .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So they 're making {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive {disfmarker} artificially added noise or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sort of a {disfmarker} sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I m I guess Guenter Hirsch is in charge of that . Guenter Hirsch and TI .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Maybe Roger {disfmarker} r Roger , maybe in charge of .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh , uh , generating HTK scripts to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I don't know . There are {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} there is no {disfmarker} I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mis - Mississippi State maybe ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah . I 'm not sure about that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah , so that 'll be a little {disfmarker} little task in itself .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , well we 've {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . So we we did the Broadcast News evaluation", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and some of the focus conditions were noisy and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It had additive n", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But we {disfmarker} but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi uh , multi - stream and {disfmarker} and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But it , you know , we di stuff we did helped . I mean it , did something .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Um , now we have this um , meeting data . You know , like the stuff we 're {comment} recording right now ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and uh , that we have uh , for the {disfmarker} uh , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just {disfmarker} noisy and reverberant actually . It 's the far field mike . And uh , we have uh , the digits that we do at the end of these things . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with {disfmarker} with uh , connected digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , but uh , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard {disfmarker} uh , Switchboard recognizer ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh , no training , {vocalsound} from this , just {disfmarker} just plain using the Switchboard .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . You just take the Switchboard trained {disfmarker} ? Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . Now there are some adaptation though ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah . That 's cool .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "that {disfmarker} that uh , Andreas has been playing with ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but we 're hop uh , actually uh , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , uh , some of the large vocabulary data . Um , I mean , I guess no one had done {disfmarker} yet done test one on the distant mike using uh , the SRI recognizer and , uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} not that I know of .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , cuz everybody 's scared .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the {disfmarker} the CPU or something {vocalsound} trying to {disfmarker} trying to do it ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That 's right", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but uh , yeah . But , you 're right that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's a real good point , that uh , we {disfmarker} we don't know yeah , uh , I mean , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the uh {disfmarker} in the evaluation .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , But um , Good . OK . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't have good result , with the {disfmarker} inc including the new parameters ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't have good result . Are {pause} similar or a little bit worse .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "With what {disfmarker} what other new p new parameter ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 're talking about your voicing ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So maybe {disfmarker} You probably need to back up a bit", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "seeing as how Sunil ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the coe the cepstrum coefficient ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for {disfmarker} of the spec si uh , spectrum of the signal and {disfmarker} and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I 'm so sorry . I didn't get it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Nuh . Well . Anyway . The {disfmarker} First you have the sp the spectrum of the signal ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mmm . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I do the difference {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I found a difference at the variance of this different", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because , suppose we {disfmarker} we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n uh , noise .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if the variance is small , maybe you have uh , speech .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "To {disfmarker} to To {disfmarker} The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And we try to use this new feature {disfmarker} feature . And I did experiment {disfmarker} I need to change {disfmarker} to obtain this new feature I need to change the size {disfmarker} the window size {disfmarker} size . of the a of the {disfmarker} analysis window size , to have more information .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Make it longer .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , sixty - two point five milliseconds I think .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And I do {disfmarker} I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the {disfmarker} with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence {disfmarker} silence", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Unvoiced . Well .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and to {disfmarker} to concat this new feature . But the result are n with the neural network I have more or less the same result .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "As using just the cepstrum ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Result .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh , is it with TI - digits , or with {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But Doesn't help .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I really wonder though .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean we 've had these discussions before , and {disfmarker} and one of the things that struck me was that {disfmarker} uh , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we um {disfmarker} whenever you condense things , uh , in an irreversible way , um , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for uh particular , uh , phonetic units . Um , but , you 'll do throw something away . And so the question is , uh , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . And um . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking \" oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice {disfmarker} voiced property whatever . \" So that {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Maybe that helps to drive the {disfmarker} the thought process of coming up with the features . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , \" well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? \" So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT uh , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "To know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or {disfmarker} or whatever", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wi - with what targets ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Voiced , unvoiced is like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , no .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . Or anything .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No the {disfmarker} just the same {disfmarker} same way we 're using {disfmarker} I mean , the same way that we 're using the filter bank .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Phones .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Exact way {disfmarker} the same way we 're using the filter bank .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , the filter bank is good for all the reasons that we say it 's good . But it 's different . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or uh , um , adding probabilities , I mean , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the {disfmarker} essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is so much variability in the power spectrum .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , uh , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and {disfmarker} and uh , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to uh , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . So I mean the {disfmarker} i i It 's true there 's lots of variability ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , um , uh , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about uh , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily {disfmarker} not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , d", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , so anyway , it 's just a thought , that {disfmarker} that if we {disfmarker} if we had that {disfmarker} maybe it 's just a baseline uh , which would show us \" well , what are we really getting out of the filters \" , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the {disfmarker} But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . But , maybe the neural net and the H M Ms could figure it out quicker than you .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "It 's just a thought .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker} I will try to do that .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one um p one thing is like what {disfmarker} before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the {disfmarker} th what we did was like , I {disfmarker} I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the HMM on that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That is just a binary feature and that seems to be {vocalsound} improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . That 's it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wait {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You did some experiment .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Well , in {disfmarker} in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and it was very short . But Italian was like very {disfmarker} it was a huge improvement on Italian .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean . To {disfmarker} maybe to distinguish between voice sound and unvoiced sounds ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "There was a paper in ICASSP {disfmarker} this ICASSP {disfmarker} over the uh extracting some higher - order uh , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can {disfmarker} I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . It {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Talking cumulants or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Huh ? Uh , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cumulants or something .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't remember .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} No .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It wa it was taking the , um {disfmarker} It was about finding the higher - order moments of {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "cumulants , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "maybe higher - order cumulants", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah . It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Or m e", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , he was showing up uh some {disfmarker} something on noisy speech ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "some improvement on the noisy speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Some small vocabulary tasks .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So it was on PLP derived cepstral coefficients .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but again {disfmarker} You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So n neural network uh , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "trying to f to Moments , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . So . I mean , it doesn't do it very specifically ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and pretty {disfmarker} you know . But .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , anything on your end you want to talk about ? Uh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , nothing I wanna really talk about . I can {disfmarker} I can just uh , um , share a little bit {disfmarker} Sunil hasn't {disfmarker} hasn't heard about uh , what I 've been doing .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , so , um , I told you I was {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , um , trying to propose um , uh , your next your {disfmarker} your following years of {disfmarker} of your PHD work , trying {disfmarker} trying to find a project to {disfmarker} to define and {disfmarker} and to work on . So , I 've been , uh , looking into , um , doing something about r uh , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , um , the idea is you have all these {disfmarker} these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , uh , frication , that kinda stuff , um , building robust um , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . Um , and , um , these {disfmarker} these primary detectors , um , will be , uh , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , um , doing things , um , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , uh , graphical models to {disfmarker} to detect these {disfmarker} these , uh , acoustic events . And , um , so I {disfmarker} I been {disfmarker} I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , um , exactly what {disfmarker} what kind of acoustic events I need , what {disfmarker} um , what acoustic events will provide a {disfmarker} a good enough coverage to {disfmarker} in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , um , once I decide a set of acoustic events , um , h how do I {disfmarker} how do I get labels ? Training data for {disfmarker} for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the {disfmarker} the models themselves , the {disfmarker} the primary detectors . Um , so , um , I kinda see {disfmarker} like , after {disfmarker} after building the primary detectors I see um , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into {disfmarker} into a um , Gaussian mixtures HMM back - end , um , and doing recognition . Um . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's just generally what I 've been looking at .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "By {disfmarker} by the way , uh , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you know , um , if you {disfmarker} if a multi - band approach was helpful as {disfmarker} as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "that one might be another thing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um , were {disfmarker} were you gonna say something ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh . It looked {disfmarker} OK , never mind . Um , yeah . And so , this {disfmarker} this past week um , I 've been uh , looking a little bit into uh , TRAPS um , and doing {disfmarker} doing TRAPS on {disfmarker} on these e events too , just , um , seeing {disfmarker} seeing if that 's possible . Uh , and um , other than that , uh , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Oh no . So you live in a cardboard box in the street now", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "or , no ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , well , s s som something like that .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "In Albany , yeah . Yeah . And uh . Yep . That 's it .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Suni - i d ' you v did uh {disfmarker} did you find a place ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is that out of the way ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "not yet . Uh , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . So . And she would get back to me on Monday . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's only thing I have and Diane has a few more houses . She 's going to take some pictures and send me after I go back . So it 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . So you 're not down here permanently yet ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "No . I 'm going back to OGI today .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Ah ! Oh , OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "OK . And then , you 're coming back uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , i I mean , I {disfmarker} I p I plan to be here on thirty - first .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Thirty - first ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Thirty - first .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Well , I mean i i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I hope .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a while", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So , in that case , I 'm going to be here on thirty - first definitely .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "until you {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . I 've got a spare bedroom right now .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh . OK . Thanks . That sure is nice of you . So , it may be he needs more than me .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh r oh . Oh no , no . My {disfmarker} my cardboard box is actually a nice spacious two bedroom apartment .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So a two bedroom cardboard box . Th - that 's great .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Thanks Dave .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Do y wanna say anything about {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you actually been {disfmarker} Uh , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were {disfmarker} you were mentioning . Is that {disfmarker} that something worth talking about , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , it 's {disfmarker} Well , um , it {disfmarker} I don't think it directly relates . Um , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to um , look at um , how people respond to formant changes , I think . Um . So he {disfmarker} he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic um , spectrum . And he wanted to look at um , how the energy is moving {pause} over time in that spectrum and compare that to the {disfmarker} to the listener tests . And , um . So , I gave him a PLP spectrum . And {disfmarker} to um {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . So I took the um , PLP LPC coefficients and um , I found the roots . This was something that Stephane suggested . I found the roots of the um , LPC polynomial to , um , track the peaks in the , um , PLP LPC spectra .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} Is that the aligned s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's a r root LPC , uh , of some sort .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , no .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "instead of the log you took the root square , I mean cubic root or something . What di w I didn't get that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No , no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's taking the {disfmarker} finding the roots of the LPC polynomial .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Polynomial . Yeah . Is that the line spectral {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's like line spectral pairs .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's like line sp", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "to sort of ? But it {disfmarker} But uh , you know . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was {disfmarker} was taking the LPC polynomial and {disfmarker} and uh , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and uh , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny {vocalsound} values in {disfmarker} in real speech ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So you just {disfmarker} You typically just get a few roots ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You know , two or three ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well you get these complex pairs .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "something like that ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So , um , if {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Every root that 's {disfmarker} Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root {comment} is gonna be a c complex pair ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "um , of a complex value and its conjugate . Um . So for each {disfmarker} And if you look at that on the unit circle , um , one of these {disfmarker} one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just {disfmarker} So , um , f for the {disfmarker} I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "which give me s which gives me three or four peak positions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This is from synthetic speech , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So if it 's from synthetic speech then maybe it 'll be cleaner . I mean for real speech in real {disfmarker} then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are {disfmarker} don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "How did {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but mostly they are .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mostly they do .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and what {disfmarker} I mean in {disfmarker} in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "because it was just a question of quantization . Uh , we were just you know , storing {disfmarker} It was {disfmarker} We were doing , uh , stored speech , uh , quantization .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but uh , in your case um , you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} there 's some of that , yes .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Well they are much lower .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? I mean h how is the speech created ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "It was created from a synthesizer , and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I bet it {disfmarker} it might have {disfmarker} may have been", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} d d this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "In {disfmarker} in fact w we {disfmarker} we could get , um , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , um , w one thing that the , um , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , um , is that I {disfmarker} I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . Um , Stephane suggested looking at each complex pair as a {disfmarker} like a se second - order IIR filter .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to um , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . Except that you don't have the psycho - acoustic modeling in that .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , so the actual {disfmarker} So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . You 're getting the {disfmarker} Again , you 're getting sort of the , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You 're getting something that is {disfmarker} is uh , af strongly affected by the PLP model . And so it 's more psycho - acoustic . So it 's a little {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's sort of {disfmarker} sort of a different thing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . That 's sort of the point .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban uh , formant centers are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean , that 's {disfmarker} Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as {disfmarker} as what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , uh , band center and band width , and um , um {disfmarker} But . Yeah . O K . So , uh , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and . Yeah . Great ! Well , welcome .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess we should do digits quickly .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I almost forgot that .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Digits .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I almost forgot our daily digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You wanna go ahead ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" } ]

[ { "content": "Uh , is it the twenty - fourth ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "now we 're on .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh Chuck , is the mike type wireless {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "wireless headset ? OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "For you it is .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . We uh {disfmarker} we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too {disfmarker} not too hot , not too cold , they were {disfmarker} you know , they were {vocalsound} uh , far enough away that you got more background noise , uh , and uh {disfmarker} and so forth", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but they weren't so close that they got quite the {disfmarker} you know , the really good {disfmarker} No , th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "they {disfmarker} I mean they didn't {disfmarker} Wait a minute . I 'm saying that wrong . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . So it was no {disfmarker} didn't seem to be a good point to them . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "There 's uh , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel uh , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we {disfmarker} there seemed to be very strong opinions for uh , getting rid of lapels .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The mike number is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . One .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then the channel number 's usually one less than that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . So you should be zero , actually .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hello ? Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "For your uh , channel number .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep , yep .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . no , they don't {disfmarker} don't have a {disfmarker} have any Indian pronunciations .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So what we usually do is um , we typically will have our meetings", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then at the end of the meetings we 'll read the digits . Everybody goes around and reads the digits on the {disfmarker} the bottom of their forms .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Session R", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "R - nineteen ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "R - nineteen .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . We 're {disfmarker} This is session R - nineteen .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you say so . O K . Do we have anything like an agenda ? What 's going on ? Um . I guess um . So . One thing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer , right . Um , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe uh , and then just uh , I guess uh , progress reports individually , and then uh , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . Um .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I could say a few words about um , some of the uh , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Why don't you start with that ? That 's sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "We um {disfmarker} So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , uh , to use as sort of a compute farm . And um , uh , we ordered uh , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and um , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , uh , in addition , we 're running {disfmarker} So the plan for using these is , uh , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all uh , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to um , {vocalsound} run things using P - make and Customs . You don't actually have to write P - make scripts and things like that . The simplest thing {disfmarker} And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "How about an email that points to the FAQ ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "there 's a c", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "you know what I 'm saying ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "so that you can {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , there 's a command , uh , that you can use called \" run command \" . \" Run dash command \" , \" run hyphen command \" . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , uh , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and uh {disfmarker} and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can try this as a simple test with uh , the L S command . So you can say \" run dash command L S \" , and , um , it 'll actually export that {vocalsound} LS command to some machine in the institute , and um , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and um {disfmarker} And that 's a simple way to get started using {disfmarker} using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , {vocalsound} um , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that uh , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . Uh , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like \" run command \" , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . So . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . Each machine has an attribute which is the name of itself . So you can give that as an attribute and it 'll only run on that . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and uh , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're {disfmarker} Uh . The SRI recognizer has all this P - make customs stuff built into it .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "is the rough division of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Exactly . Yeah , you know , I {disfmarker} I sort of got started {comment} using the recognizer just recently and uh , uh I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , \" uh , are you running two {vocalsound} trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . \" So I had to back off a little bit . But , soon as we get some more machines then uh {disfmarker} then we 'll have more compute available . So , um , that 's just a quick update about what we 've got . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , I have {disfmarker} I have a question about the uh , parallelization ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , um , let 's say I have like , a thousand little {disfmarker} little jobs to do ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , how do I do it with \" run command \" ? I mean do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "You could write a script uh , which called run command on each sub - job", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . A thousand times ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "because um , you don't wanna saturate the network . Uh , so , um , you know , you should {disfmarker} you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , uh , just because then it would keep other people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , too much file transfer and stuff .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with {disfmarker} if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . Um . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , um , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use \" run command \" , uh , to only have ten of those going at a time . And uh , then , when one of those finished you 'd fire off another one . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I remember I {disfmarker} I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or {disfmarker} or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were {disfmarker} everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and {vocalsound} and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yep . Yeah , exactly . Yeah , you have to be a little bit careful .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "as I recall , but . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , but uh , you can also {disfmarker} If you have that level of parallelization um , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in {disfmarker} in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use um , P - make", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Just do P - make .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and you basically write a Make file that uh , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "s Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and when you run P - make , uh , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and {disfmarker} and then a number ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and that number represents how many uh , machines to use at once . And then it 'll make sure that it never goes above that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "I can get some documentation .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not systematically queued . I mean all the jobs are running . If you launch twenty jobs , they are all running . Alright .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It depends . If you {disfmarker} \" Run command \" , that I mentioned before , is {disfmarker} doesn't know about other things that you might be running .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and they wouldn't know about each other . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and it can control , uh , how many it runs simultaneously .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So \" run command \" doesn't use P - make , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It uses \" export \" underlyingly . But , if you {disfmarker} i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know {disfmarker} any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So why would one use that rather than P - make ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Well , if you have , um {disfmarker} Like , for example , uh if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , uh {disfmarker} an HTK training job that you know is gonna take uh , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , uh , the machine you typically use , you can say \" run command \" and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and {disfmarker} and run your job there .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , there are um {disfmarker} Right . So some of the machines at the institute , um , have this attribute called \" no evict \" . And if you specify that , in {disfmarker} in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and {disfmarker} and they were at lunch ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted {disfmarker} your job {comment} will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . Automatically . So {disfmarker} which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . So . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus {disfmarker} the attribute , you know , \" no evict \" , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , what {disfmarker} what about {disfmarker} I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you {disfmarker} if something required {disfmarker} if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how that works .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , it seems like Andreas did something for that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . We can ask him sometime .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev {disfmarker} dev console or something .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "You probably wouldn't ordinarily , though . Yeah . Right ? You probably wouldn't ordinarily .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean you sort of {disfmarker} you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , \" screw this \" ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so , um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah . I {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} I 'm not sure about that one .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But uh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , I need a little orientation about this environment and uh scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , I think maybe I 'll ask you after the meeting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and also uh , Stephane 's a {disfmarker} a really good resource for that if you can't find me .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yep . OK , sure", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Especially with regard to the Aurora stuff .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He {disfmarker} he knows that stuff better than I do .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . Well , why don't we uh , uh , Sunil since you 're {vocalsound} haven't {disfmarker} haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's {disfmarker} what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah . So , uh , shall I start from {disfmarker} Well I don't know how may I {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} OK . Uh , I think I 'll start from the post uh Aurora submission maybe .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah , after the submission the {disfmarker} what I 've been working on mainly was to take {disfmarker} take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in {disfmarker} in ours . So {disfmarker} So I tried uh , And u First I tried just LDA . And then I found that uh , I mean , if {disfmarker} if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Are y are you saying LDA ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "LDA . OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , just {disfmarker} just the LDA filters . I just plug in {disfmarker} I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . But the LDA filter that I used was different from what we submitted in the proposal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What I did was {vocalsound} I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , uh , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , uh , narrow {disfmarker} narrow band LDA filter that we submitted uh , I got new filters . So that seems to be giving {disfmarker} uh , improving over their uh , system . Slightly . But , not very significantly . And uh , that was uh , showing any improvement over {disfmarker} final {disfmarker} by plugging in an LDA . And uh , so then after {disfmarker} after that I {disfmarker} I added uh , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a {disfmarker} a mean and variance update time constant and {disfmarker} which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But um , I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value {disfmarker} I mean , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . That 's all I found So I have to . Uh , Yeah . And uh , uh , the other {disfmarker} other thing what I tried was , I just um , uh , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf uh th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the {disfmarker} I mean the w speech and nonspeech . And uh , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , can you back up a second , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I missed something , uh , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , uh , uh things got better again ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "or is it ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "No . No , things didn't get better with the same time constant that we used .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Did it not ? No , no . With a different time constant .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "With the different time constant I found that {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "because I {disfmarker} I found that I would have change the value of the update factor .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No you didn't , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But I didn't play it with play {disfmarker} play quite a bit to make it better than .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , it 's still not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I mean , the on - line normalization didn't give me any improvement .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And uh , so ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "oh yeah So I just stopped there with the uh , speech enhancement . The {disfmarker} the other thing what I tried was the {disfmarker} adding the uh , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the {disfmarker} the second {disfmarker} the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , uh , use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So people won't even have to worry about , uh , doing speech - nonspeech then .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's , that 's what the feeling is like . They 're going to give the endpoint information .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "everybody does that ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what {disfmarker} what are the best features that you should use .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean clearly they 're interact . So I don't know that I entirely agree with it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but it might be uh {disfmarker} In some ways it might be better t to {disfmarker} rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But , you know . It 's {disfmarker} it 's still someth reasonable .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , are people supposed to assume that there is uh {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "No . No . That i I {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I guess that is {disfmarker} that is where the consensus is . Like y you will {disfmarker} you will {disfmarker} You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because you don't have the mistakes in it . Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} The baseline itself {disfmarker} I mean , it improves by twenty - two percent . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . w", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean you don't need any further speech enhancement with fifty . So , uh ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So the baseline itself improves by fifty percent .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , by fifty percent .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So it 's g it 's gonna be harder to {vocalsound} beat that actually .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "so that is when uh , the {disfmarker} the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And I think they have {disfmarker} they have actually changed their qualification c criteria now . And uh , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK . No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good {disfmarker} good update .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Ye Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I came back and I started working on uh , some other speech enhancement algorithm . I mean , so {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . These are the main uh , approaches where people have tried ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "so just to {disfmarker} just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I {disfmarker} I 've been working on this uh , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . I have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to test whether it works first or not", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . So , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So {disfmarker} so now you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so we we 'll have a {vocalsound} single place where the stuff is .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cool . Um , so maybe uh , just briefly , you could remind us about the related experiments . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , where you were also combining something {disfmarker} both of you I guess were both combining something from the uh , French Telecom system with {vocalsound} the u uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . It was system one . So", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "we {disfmarker} The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are uh , with noise removed .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I let me {disfmarker} let me just stop you there . So then , one distinction is that uh , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no there is a slight different . Uh I mean , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . But that 's what I mean .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But u u Sorry ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah , I 'm not being {disfmarker} I 'm not being clear .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And so one difference is that , I guess you were taking spectra .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads uh , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like {disfmarker} There may be a slight difference in the way {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "right ? or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . I mean , if we are using our own code for th I mean that {disfmarker} that could be the only difference .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , there is no other difference .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But you got some sort of different result . So I 'm trying to understand it . But uh , I th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , well I think we should uh , have a table with all the result because I don't know I uh , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied uh , proposal - one system after this without {disfmarker} well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the {disfmarker} the LDA filters ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the filter {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Only LDA . Yeah . Af - I {disfmarker} after that I added on - line normalization , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So we just tried directly to {disfmarker} to just , keep the system as it was and , um , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves uh , signif significantly . Um , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because if we keep the value that was submitted uh , it doesn't help at all . You can remove on - line normalization , or put it , it doesn't change anything . Uh , uh , as long as you have the spectral subtraction . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but , uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I assume .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and see where i where the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} where they were different and what we can learn from it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "without any change . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's the new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with changes ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "with", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "because we change it the system to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I mean the {disfmarker} the new LDA filters .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "w Uh , it doesn't seem to hurt on TI - digits , finally .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Maybe because of other changes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , well there are some {vocalsound} minor changes , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , um , always better than {disfmarker} it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . And it 's still slightly worse for well - matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Um , but this is not significant . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , uh , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . Even with very minor {disfmarker} uh , even if it 's only slightly worse for well - matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And significantly better for HM . Uh , but , well . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , uh , uh , mainly because of uh , when you p you plug the um , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and MM ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "so , um , I guess what will happen {disfmarker} I don't know what will happen . But , the different contribution , I think , for the different test set will be more even .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Because the {disfmarker} your improvement on HM and MM will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . But the {pause} the well - matched may still {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the MM {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "MM and HM are going to be v hugely affected by it . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , so um , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But they d the {disfmarker} everything I mean is like , but there that 's how they reduce {disfmarker} why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some {disfmarker} something on .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But are they changing the weighting ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . So there 's nothing on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't understand that .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess I {disfmarker} I haven't been part of the discussion , so , um , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Usual .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "in this case . Unusual .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because , um , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ {disfmarker} particular person 's car is like , or", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It seems like something like the middle one is {disfmarker} is more natural .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So I don't know why the {pause} well - matched is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but actually the well {disfmarker} well the well - matched um , uh , I mean the {disfmarker} the well - matched condition is not like , uh , the one in TI - digits where uh , you have all the training , uh , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . It 's like , this is not calibrated by SNR or something . The well - matched has also some {disfmarker} some mismatch in that which is other than the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The well wa matched has mismatch ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "has {disfmarker} has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Perfect to match .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "because it 's artificially added noise .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But this is natural recording .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So remind me of what well - matched meant ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the well - matched is like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 've told me many times .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , so it means that if the database is large enough , it 's matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because it", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "in each set you have a range of conditions {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So , I mean , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much {disfmarker} You know , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's sort of saying if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not guaranteed though .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , it 's not guaranteed .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah because the m the main {disfmarker} major reason for the m", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Again , if you have enough {disfmarker} if you have enough {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "No yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you {disfmarker} much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , um , you {disfmarker} you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and {disfmarker} and record noise conditions , or something , and then {disfmarker} I don't think that 's very realistic , I mean I th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I you know , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and {disfmarker} and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , So What else is going on ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm . You Yeah . We are playing {disfmarker} we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . Um , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the um , mel energies which I already tested but without the um frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is spectral subtraction typically done on the {disfmarker} after the mel , uh , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Does it matter , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I d I don't know . Well , it 's both {disfmarker} both uh , cases can i", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . So - some of the proposal , uh , we 're doing this on the bin {disfmarker} on the FFT bins ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "others on the um , mel energies . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's {disfmarker} which one might be better or {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't know . Yeah , but", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But for speech recognition , it may not . I mean it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . So you 're going to do a linear weighting anyway after that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , it may not be really a big different .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It I Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , uh , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean they just do the same thing again once more .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So , there 's something that is good about doing it {disfmarker} I mean , to cleaning it up once more .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it might be .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's what", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean maybe one or {disfmarker} one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That 's wh Yeah . So ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "you know ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean just to see all {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "How is it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does {disfmarker} I mean , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're {disfmarker} that you 're adding together the two signals , how is {disfmarker} how is that differ from signal subspace ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The signal subspace ? The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The signal subspace approach has actually an in - built Wiener filtering in it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter . Is the signal is {disfmarker} is a signal substrate .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , oh , OK so the difference is the KL .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the different {disfmarker} the c the {disfmarker} the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . It 's {disfmarker} it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions , and in colored noise .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wiener filtering . It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a cascade of two s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wiener filter . Yeah , in general , you don't {disfmarker} that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . Actually . Um , that was something that uh , Herve and I were talking about with um , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from uh , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Yeah . So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some {disfmarker} something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then do a something in the second stage which could take it further .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What was your point about {disfmarker} about colored noise there ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , the colored noise uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "the colored noise {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the v the signal subspace approach has {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker} it actually depends on inverting the matrices . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} ac the covariance matrix of the noise . So if {disfmarker} if it is not positive definite ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean it has a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So you should do spectral subtraction and then add noise .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then make the noise white ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I was only half kidding . I mean if you {disfmarker} sort of {vocalsound} you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then you {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then add a little bit l noise {disfmarker} noise addition {disfmarker} I mean , that sort of what J {disfmarker} JRASTA does , in a way .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little {disfmarker} adding a little noise ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Huh ? Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "in order to get rid of the effects of noise .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . So there is this . And maybe we {disfmarker} well we find some people so that {vocalsound} uh , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's um , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , {vocalsound} uh f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . So . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a nonlinear eh uh , transformation in the cepstral domain .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And uh , there is a way to approximate this using uh , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for {vocalsound} uh , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Who is doing this ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and another in {pause} uh , Lucent that I met at ICASSP .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Who 's the guy in Grenada ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "uh ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , Jose Carlos Segura .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I don't know him .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "This VTS has been proposed by CMU ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is it the CMU ? Yeah , yeah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Originally the idea was from CMU .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "From C .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Well , it 's again a different thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that could be tried . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , uh , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of uh , noise removal , uh , with {disfmarker} with these other things we have ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh , looks like a worthy thing to {disfmarker} to do here .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah . But , yeah . But for sure there 's required to {disfmarker} that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and , for sure the on - line normalization may be the LDA filter . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well one of the {disfmarker} seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too {disfmarker} or {pause} I guess not next week ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "week and a half , uh , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . Um . You know . So , I mean one way would {disfmarker} he Here are some alternate visions . I mean one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same {disfmarker} different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to {disfmarker} to pick two pol two plausible things , and {disfmarker} and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and then , you know , uh , but , w um , uh , he 'll have some ideas on that too .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The other thing is to , uh {disfmarker} Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we {disfmarker} we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some {disfmarker} I mean , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's {disfmarker} Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we {disfmarker} if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization {pause} to make it work @ @ .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So they 're making {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive {disfmarker} artificially added noise or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sort of a {disfmarker} sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I m I guess Guenter Hirsch is in charge of that . Guenter Hirsch and TI .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Maybe Roger {disfmarker} r Roger , maybe in charge of .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh , uh , generating HTK scripts to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I don't know . There are {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} there is no {disfmarker} I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mis - Mississippi State maybe ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah . I 'm not sure about that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah , so that 'll be a little {disfmarker} little task in itself .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , well we 've {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . So we we did the Broadcast News evaluation", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and some of the focus conditions were noisy and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It had additive n", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But we {disfmarker} but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi uh , multi - stream and {disfmarker} and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But it , you know , we di stuff we did helped . I mean it , did something .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Um , now we have this um , meeting data . You know , like the stuff we 're {comment} recording right now ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and uh , that we have uh , for the {disfmarker} uh , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just {disfmarker} noisy and reverberant actually . It 's the far field mike . And uh , we have uh , the digits that we do at the end of these things . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with {disfmarker} with uh , connected digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , but uh , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard {disfmarker} uh , Switchboard recognizer ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh , no training , {vocalsound} from this , just {disfmarker} just plain using the Switchboard .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . You just take the Switchboard trained {disfmarker} ? Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . Now there are some adaptation though ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah . That 's cool .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "that {disfmarker} that uh , Andreas has been playing with ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but we 're hop uh , actually uh , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , uh , some of the large vocabulary data . Um , I mean , I guess no one had done {disfmarker} yet done test one on the distant mike using uh , the SRI recognizer and , uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} not that I know of .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , cuz everybody 's scared .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the {disfmarker} the CPU or something {vocalsound} trying to {disfmarker} trying to do it ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That 's right", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but uh , yeah . But , you 're right that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's a real good point , that uh , we {disfmarker} we don't know yeah , uh , I mean , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the uh {disfmarker} in the evaluation .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , But um , Good . OK . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't have good result , with the {disfmarker} inc including the new parameters ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't have good result . Are {pause} similar or a little bit worse .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "With what {disfmarker} what other new p new parameter ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 're talking about your voicing ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So maybe {disfmarker} You probably need to back up a bit", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "seeing as how Sunil ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the coe the cepstrum coefficient ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for {disfmarker} of the spec si uh , spectrum of the signal and {disfmarker} and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I 'm so sorry . I didn't get it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Nuh . Well . Anyway . The {disfmarker} First you have the sp the spectrum of the signal ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mmm . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I do the difference {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I found a difference at the variance of this different", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because , suppose we {disfmarker} we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n uh , noise .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if the variance is small , maybe you have uh , speech .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "To {disfmarker} to To {disfmarker} The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And we try to use this new feature {disfmarker} feature . And I did experiment {disfmarker} I need to change {disfmarker} to obtain this new feature I need to change the size {disfmarker} the window size {disfmarker} size . of the a of the {disfmarker} analysis window size , to have more information .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Make it longer .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , sixty - two point five milliseconds I think .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And I do {disfmarker} I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the {disfmarker} with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence {disfmarker} silence", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Unvoiced . Well .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and to {disfmarker} to concat this new feature . But the result are n with the neural network I have more or less the same result .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "As using just the cepstrum ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Result .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh , is it with TI - digits , or with {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But Doesn't help .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I really wonder though .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean we 've had these discussions before , and {disfmarker} and one of the things that struck me was that {disfmarker} uh , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we um {disfmarker} whenever you condense things , uh , in an irreversible way , um , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for uh particular , uh , phonetic units . Um , but , you 'll do throw something away . And so the question is , uh , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . And um . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking \" oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice {disfmarker} voiced property whatever . \" So that {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Maybe that helps to drive the {disfmarker} the thought process of coming up with the features . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , \" well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? \" So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT uh , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "To know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or {disfmarker} or whatever", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wi - with what targets ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Voiced , unvoiced is like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , no .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . Or anything .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No the {disfmarker} just the same {disfmarker} same way we 're using {disfmarker} I mean , the same way that we 're using the filter bank .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Phones .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Exact way {disfmarker} the same way we 're using the filter bank .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , the filter bank is good for all the reasons that we say it 's good . But it 's different . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or uh , um , adding probabilities , I mean , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the {disfmarker} essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is so much variability in the power spectrum .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , uh , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and {disfmarker} and uh , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to uh , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . So I mean the {disfmarker} i i It 's true there 's lots of variability ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , um , uh , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about uh , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily {disfmarker} not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , d", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , so anyway , it 's just a thought , that {disfmarker} that if we {disfmarker} if we had that {disfmarker} maybe it 's just a baseline uh , which would show us \" well , what are we really getting out of the filters \" , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the {disfmarker} But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . But , maybe the neural net and the H M Ms could figure it out quicker than you .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "It 's just a thought .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker} I will try to do that .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one um p one thing is like what {disfmarker} before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the {disfmarker} th what we did was like , I {disfmarker} I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the HMM on that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That is just a binary feature and that seems to be {vocalsound} improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . That 's it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wait {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You did some experiment .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Well , in {disfmarker} in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and it was very short . But Italian was like very {disfmarker} it was a huge improvement on Italian .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean . To {disfmarker} maybe to distinguish between voice sound and unvoiced sounds ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "There was a paper in ICASSP {disfmarker} this ICASSP {disfmarker} over the uh extracting some higher - order uh , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can {disfmarker} I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . It {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Talking cumulants or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Huh ? Uh , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cumulants or something .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't remember .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} No .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It wa it was taking the , um {disfmarker} It was about finding the higher - order moments of {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "cumulants , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "maybe higher - order cumulants", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah . It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Or m e", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , he was showing up uh some {disfmarker} something on noisy speech ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "some improvement on the noisy speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Some small vocabulary tasks .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So it was on PLP derived cepstral coefficients .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but again {disfmarker} You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So n neural network uh , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "trying to f to Moments , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . So . I mean , it doesn't do it very specifically ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and pretty {disfmarker} you know . But .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , anything on your end you want to talk about ? Uh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , nothing I wanna really talk about . I can {disfmarker} I can just uh , um , share a little bit {disfmarker} Sunil hasn't {disfmarker} hasn't heard about uh , what I 've been doing .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , so , um , I told you I was {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , um , trying to propose um , uh , your next your {disfmarker} your following years of {disfmarker} of your PHD work , trying {disfmarker} trying to find a project to {disfmarker} to define and {disfmarker} and to work on . So , I 've been , uh , looking into , um , doing something about r uh , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , um , the idea is you have all these {disfmarker} these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , uh , frication , that kinda stuff , um , building robust um , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . Um , and , um , these {disfmarker} these primary detectors , um , will be , uh , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , um , doing things , um , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , uh , graphical models to {disfmarker} to detect these {disfmarker} these , uh , acoustic events . And , um , so I {disfmarker} I been {disfmarker} I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , um , exactly what {disfmarker} what kind of acoustic events I need , what {disfmarker} um , what acoustic events will provide a {disfmarker} a good enough coverage to {disfmarker} in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , um , once I decide a set of acoustic events , um , h how do I {disfmarker} how do I get labels ? Training data for {disfmarker} for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the {disfmarker} the models themselves , the {disfmarker} the primary detectors . Um , so , um , I kinda see {disfmarker} like , after {disfmarker} after building the primary detectors I see um , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into {disfmarker} into a um , Gaussian mixtures HMM back - end , um , and doing recognition . Um . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's just generally what I 've been looking at .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "By {disfmarker} by the way , uh , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you know , um , if you {disfmarker} if a multi - band approach was helpful as {disfmarker} as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "that one might be another thing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um , were {disfmarker} were you gonna say something ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh . It looked {disfmarker} OK , never mind . Um , yeah . And so , this {disfmarker} this past week um , I 've been uh , looking a little bit into uh , TRAPS um , and doing {disfmarker} doing TRAPS on {disfmarker} on these e events too , just , um , seeing {disfmarker} seeing if that 's possible . Uh , and um , other than that , uh , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Oh no . So you live in a cardboard box in the street now", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "or , no ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , well , s s som something like that .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "In Albany , yeah . Yeah . And uh . Yep . That 's it .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Suni - i d ' you v did uh {disfmarker} did you find a place ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is that out of the way ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "not yet . Uh , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . So . And she would get back to me on Monday . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's only thing I have and Diane has a few more houses . She 's going to take some pictures and send me after I go back . So it 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . So you 're not down here permanently yet ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "No . I 'm going back to OGI today .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Ah ! Oh , OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "OK . And then , you 're coming back uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , i I mean , I {disfmarker} I p I plan to be here on thirty - first .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Thirty - first ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Thirty - first .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Well , I mean i i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I hope .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a while", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So , in that case , I 'm going to be here on thirty - first definitely .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "until you {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . I 've got a spare bedroom right now .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh . OK . Thanks . That sure is nice of you . So , it may be he needs more than me .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh r oh . Oh no , no . My {disfmarker} my cardboard box is actually a nice spacious two bedroom apartment .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So a two bedroom cardboard box . Th - that 's great .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Thanks Dave .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Do y wanna say anything about {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you actually been {disfmarker} Uh , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were {disfmarker} you were mentioning . Is that {disfmarker} that something worth talking about , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , it 's {disfmarker} Well , um , it {disfmarker} I don't think it directly relates . Um , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to um , look at um , how people respond to formant changes , I think . Um . So he {disfmarker} he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic um , spectrum . And he wanted to look at um , how the energy is moving {pause} over time in that spectrum and compare that to the {disfmarker} to the listener tests . And , um . So , I gave him a PLP spectrum . And {disfmarker} to um {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . So I took the um , PLP LPC coefficients and um , I found the roots . This was something that Stephane suggested . I found the roots of the um , LPC polynomial to , um , track the peaks in the , um , PLP LPC spectra .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} Is that the aligned s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's a r root LPC , uh , of some sort .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , no .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "instead of the log you took the root square , I mean cubic root or something . What di w I didn't get that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No , no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's taking the {disfmarker} finding the roots of the LPC polynomial .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Polynomial . Yeah . Is that the line spectral {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's like line spectral pairs .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's like line sp", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "to sort of ? But it {disfmarker} But uh , you know . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was {disfmarker} was taking the LPC polynomial and {disfmarker} and uh , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and uh , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny {vocalsound} values in {disfmarker} in real speech ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So you just {disfmarker} You typically just get a few roots ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You know , two or three ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well you get these complex pairs .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "something like that ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So , um , if {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Every root that 's {disfmarker} Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root {comment} is gonna be a c complex pair ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "um , of a complex value and its conjugate . Um . So for each {disfmarker} And if you look at that on the unit circle , um , one of these {disfmarker} one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just {disfmarker} So , um , f for the {disfmarker} I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "which give me s which gives me three or four peak positions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This is from synthetic speech , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So if it 's from synthetic speech then maybe it 'll be cleaner . I mean for real speech in real {disfmarker} then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are {disfmarker} don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "How did {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but mostly they are .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mostly they do .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and what {disfmarker} I mean in {disfmarker} in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "because it was just a question of quantization . Uh , we were just you know , storing {disfmarker} It was {disfmarker} We were doing , uh , stored speech , uh , quantization .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but uh , in your case um , you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} there 's some of that , yes .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Well they are much lower .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? I mean h how is the speech created ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "It was created from a synthesizer , and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I bet it {disfmarker} it might have {disfmarker} may have been", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} d d this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "In {disfmarker} in fact w we {disfmarker} we could get , um , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , um , w one thing that the , um , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , um , is that I {disfmarker} I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . Um , Stephane suggested looking at each complex pair as a {disfmarker} like a se second - order IIR filter .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to um , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . Except that you don't have the psycho - acoustic modeling in that .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , so the actual {disfmarker} So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . You 're getting the {disfmarker} Again , you 're getting sort of the , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You 're getting something that is {disfmarker} is uh , af strongly affected by the PLP model . And so it 's more psycho - acoustic . So it 's a little {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's sort of {disfmarker} sort of a different thing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . That 's sort of the point .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban uh , formant centers are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean , that 's {disfmarker} Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as {disfmarker} as what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , uh , band center and band width , and um , um {disfmarker} But . Yeah . O K . So , uh , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and . Yeah . Great ! Well , welcome .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess we should do digits quickly .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I almost forgot that .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Digits .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I almost forgot our daily digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You wanna go ahead ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" } ]

[ { "content": "Uh , is it the twenty - fourth ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "now we 're on .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh Chuck , is the mike type wireless {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "wireless headset ? OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "For you it is .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . We uh {disfmarker} we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too {disfmarker} not too hot , not too cold , they were {disfmarker} you know , they were {vocalsound} uh , far enough away that you got more background noise , uh , and uh {disfmarker} and so forth", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but they weren't so close that they got quite the {disfmarker} you know , the really good {disfmarker} No , th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "they {disfmarker} I mean they didn't {disfmarker} Wait a minute . I 'm saying that wrong . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . So it was no {disfmarker} didn't seem to be a good point to them . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "There 's uh , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel uh , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we {disfmarker} there seemed to be very strong opinions for uh , getting rid of lapels .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The mike number is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . One .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then the channel number 's usually one less than that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . So you should be zero , actually .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hello ? Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "For your uh , channel number .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep , yep .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . no , they don't {disfmarker} don't have a {disfmarker} have any Indian pronunciations .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So what we usually do is um , we typically will have our meetings", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then at the end of the meetings we 'll read the digits . Everybody goes around and reads the digits on the {disfmarker} the bottom of their forms .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Session R", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "R - nineteen ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "R - nineteen .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . We 're {disfmarker} This is session R - nineteen .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you say so . O K . Do we have anything like an agenda ? What 's going on ? Um . I guess um . So . One thing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer , right . Um , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe uh , and then just uh , I guess uh , progress reports individually , and then uh , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . Um .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I could say a few words about um , some of the uh , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Why don't you start with that ? That 's sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "We um {disfmarker} So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , uh , to use as sort of a compute farm . And um , uh , we ordered uh , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and um , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , uh , in addition , we 're running {disfmarker} So the plan for using these is , uh , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all uh , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to um , {vocalsound} run things using P - make and Customs . You don't actually have to write P - make scripts and things like that . The simplest thing {disfmarker} And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "How about an email that points to the FAQ ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "there 's a c", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "you know what I 'm saying ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "so that you can {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , there 's a command , uh , that you can use called \" run command \" . \" Run dash command \" , \" run hyphen command \" . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , uh , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and uh {disfmarker} and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can try this as a simple test with uh , the L S command . So you can say \" run dash command L S \" , and , um , it 'll actually export that {vocalsound} LS command to some machine in the institute , and um , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and um {disfmarker} And that 's a simple way to get started using {disfmarker} using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , {vocalsound} um , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that uh , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . Uh , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like \" run command \" , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . So . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . Each machine has an attribute which is the name of itself . So you can give that as an attribute and it 'll only run on that . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and uh , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're {disfmarker} Uh . The SRI recognizer has all this P - make customs stuff built into it .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "is the rough division of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Exactly . Yeah , you know , I {disfmarker} I sort of got started {comment} using the recognizer just recently and uh , uh I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , \" uh , are you running two {vocalsound} trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . \" So I had to back off a little bit . But , soon as we get some more machines then uh {disfmarker} then we 'll have more compute available . So , um , that 's just a quick update about what we 've got . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , I have {disfmarker} I have a question about the uh , parallelization ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , um , let 's say I have like , a thousand little {disfmarker} little jobs to do ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , how do I do it with \" run command \" ? I mean do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "You could write a script uh , which called run command on each sub - job", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . A thousand times ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "because um , you don't wanna saturate the network . Uh , so , um , you know , you should {disfmarker} you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , uh , just because then it would keep other people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , too much file transfer and stuff .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with {disfmarker} if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . Um . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , um , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use \" run command \" , uh , to only have ten of those going at a time . And uh , then , when one of those finished you 'd fire off another one . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I remember I {disfmarker} I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or {disfmarker} or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were {disfmarker} everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and {vocalsound} and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yep . Yeah , exactly . Yeah , you have to be a little bit careful .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "as I recall , but . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , but uh , you can also {disfmarker} If you have that level of parallelization um , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in {disfmarker} in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use um , P - make", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Just do P - make .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and you basically write a Make file that uh , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "s Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and when you run P - make , uh , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and {disfmarker} and then a number ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and that number represents how many uh , machines to use at once . And then it 'll make sure that it never goes above that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "I can get some documentation .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not systematically queued . I mean all the jobs are running . If you launch twenty jobs , they are all running . Alright .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It depends . If you {disfmarker} \" Run command \" , that I mentioned before , is {disfmarker} doesn't know about other things that you might be running .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and they wouldn't know about each other . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and it can control , uh , how many it runs simultaneously .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So \" run command \" doesn't use P - make , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It uses \" export \" underlyingly . But , if you {disfmarker} i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know {disfmarker} any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So why would one use that rather than P - make ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Well , if you have , um {disfmarker} Like , for example , uh if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , uh {disfmarker} an HTK training job that you know is gonna take uh , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , uh , the machine you typically use , you can say \" run command \" and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and {disfmarker} and run your job there .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , there are um {disfmarker} Right . So some of the machines at the institute , um , have this attribute called \" no evict \" . And if you specify that , in {disfmarker} in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and {disfmarker} and they were at lunch ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted {disfmarker} your job {comment} will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . Automatically . So {disfmarker} which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . So . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus {disfmarker} the attribute , you know , \" no evict \" , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , what {disfmarker} what about {disfmarker} I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you {disfmarker} if something required {disfmarker} if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how that works .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , it seems like Andreas did something for that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . We can ask him sometime .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev {disfmarker} dev console or something .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "You probably wouldn't ordinarily , though . Yeah . Right ? You probably wouldn't ordinarily .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean you sort of {disfmarker} you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , \" screw this \" ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so , um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah . I {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} I 'm not sure about that one .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But uh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , I need a little orientation about this environment and uh scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , I think maybe I 'll ask you after the meeting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and also uh , Stephane 's a {disfmarker} a really good resource for that if you can't find me .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yep . OK , sure", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Especially with regard to the Aurora stuff .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He {disfmarker} he knows that stuff better than I do .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . Well , why don't we uh , uh , Sunil since you 're {vocalsound} haven't {disfmarker} haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's {disfmarker} what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah . So , uh , shall I start from {disfmarker} Well I don't know how may I {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} OK . Uh , I think I 'll start from the post uh Aurora submission maybe .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah , after the submission the {disfmarker} what I 've been working on mainly was to take {disfmarker} take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in {disfmarker} in ours . So {disfmarker} So I tried uh , And u First I tried just LDA . And then I found that uh , I mean , if {disfmarker} if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Are y are you saying LDA ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "LDA . OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , just {disfmarker} just the LDA filters . I just plug in {disfmarker} I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . But the LDA filter that I used was different from what we submitted in the proposal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What I did was {vocalsound} I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , uh , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , uh , narrow {disfmarker} narrow band LDA filter that we submitted uh , I got new filters . So that seems to be giving {disfmarker} uh , improving over their uh , system . Slightly . But , not very significantly . And uh , that was uh , showing any improvement over {disfmarker} final {disfmarker} by plugging in an LDA . And uh , so then after {disfmarker} after that I {disfmarker} I added uh , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a {disfmarker} a mean and variance update time constant and {disfmarker} which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But um , I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value {disfmarker} I mean , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . That 's all I found So I have to . Uh , Yeah . And uh , uh , the other {disfmarker} other thing what I tried was , I just um , uh , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf uh th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the {disfmarker} I mean the w speech and nonspeech . And uh , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , can you back up a second , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I missed something , uh , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , uh , uh things got better again ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "or is it ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "No . No , things didn't get better with the same time constant that we used .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Did it not ? No , no . With a different time constant .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "With the different time constant I found that {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "because I {disfmarker} I found that I would have change the value of the update factor .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No you didn't , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But I didn't play it with play {disfmarker} play quite a bit to make it better than .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , it 's still not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I mean , the on - line normalization didn't give me any improvement .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And uh , so ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "oh yeah So I just stopped there with the uh , speech enhancement . The {disfmarker} the other thing what I tried was the {disfmarker} adding the uh , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the {disfmarker} the second {disfmarker} the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , uh , use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So people won't even have to worry about , uh , doing speech - nonspeech then .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's , that 's what the feeling is like . They 're going to give the endpoint information .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "everybody does that ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what {disfmarker} what are the best features that you should use .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean clearly they 're interact . So I don't know that I entirely agree with it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but it might be uh {disfmarker} In some ways it might be better t to {disfmarker} rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But , you know . It 's {disfmarker} it 's still someth reasonable .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , are people supposed to assume that there is uh {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "No . No . That i I {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I guess that is {disfmarker} that is where the consensus is . Like y you will {disfmarker} you will {disfmarker} You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because you don't have the mistakes in it . Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} The baseline itself {disfmarker} I mean , it improves by twenty - two percent . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . w", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean you don't need any further speech enhancement with fifty . So , uh ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So the baseline itself improves by fifty percent .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , by fifty percent .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So it 's g it 's gonna be harder to {vocalsound} beat that actually .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "so that is when uh , the {disfmarker} the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And I think they have {disfmarker} they have actually changed their qualification c criteria now . And uh , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK . No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good {disfmarker} good update .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Ye Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I came back and I started working on uh , some other speech enhancement algorithm . I mean , so {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . These are the main uh , approaches where people have tried ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "so just to {disfmarker} just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I {disfmarker} I 've been working on this uh , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . I have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to test whether it works first or not", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . So , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So {disfmarker} so now you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so we we 'll have a {vocalsound} single place where the stuff is .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cool . Um , so maybe uh , just briefly , you could remind us about the related experiments . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , where you were also combining something {disfmarker} both of you I guess were both combining something from the uh , French Telecom system with {vocalsound} the u uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . It was system one . So", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "we {disfmarker} The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are uh , with noise removed .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I let me {disfmarker} let me just stop you there . So then , one distinction is that uh , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no there is a slight different . Uh I mean , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . But that 's what I mean .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But u u Sorry ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah , I 'm not being {disfmarker} I 'm not being clear .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And so one difference is that , I guess you were taking spectra .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads uh , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like {disfmarker} There may be a slight difference in the way {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "right ? or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . I mean , if we are using our own code for th I mean that {disfmarker} that could be the only difference .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , there is no other difference .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But you got some sort of different result . So I 'm trying to understand it . But uh , I th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , well I think we should uh , have a table with all the result because I don't know I uh , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied uh , proposal - one system after this without {disfmarker} well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the {disfmarker} the LDA filters ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the filter {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Only LDA . Yeah . Af - I {disfmarker} after that I added on - line normalization , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So we just tried directly to {disfmarker} to just , keep the system as it was and , um , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves uh , signif significantly . Um , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because if we keep the value that was submitted uh , it doesn't help at all . You can remove on - line normalization , or put it , it doesn't change anything . Uh , uh , as long as you have the spectral subtraction . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but , uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I assume .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and see where i where the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} where they were different and what we can learn from it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "without any change . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's the new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with changes ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "with", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "because we change it the system to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I mean the {disfmarker} the new LDA filters .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "w Uh , it doesn't seem to hurt on TI - digits , finally .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Maybe because of other changes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , well there are some {vocalsound} minor changes , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , um , always better than {disfmarker} it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . And it 's still slightly worse for well - matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Um , but this is not significant . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , uh , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . Even with very minor {disfmarker} uh , even if it 's only slightly worse for well - matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And significantly better for HM . Uh , but , well . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , uh , uh , mainly because of uh , when you p you plug the um , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and MM ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "so , um , I guess what will happen {disfmarker} I don't know what will happen . But , the different contribution , I think , for the different test set will be more even .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Because the {disfmarker} your improvement on HM and MM will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . But the {pause} the well - matched may still {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the MM {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "MM and HM are going to be v hugely affected by it . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , so um , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But they d the {disfmarker} everything I mean is like , but there that 's how they reduce {disfmarker} why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some {disfmarker} something on .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But are they changing the weighting ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . So there 's nothing on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't understand that .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess I {disfmarker} I haven't been part of the discussion , so , um , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Usual .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "in this case . Unusual .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because , um , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ {disfmarker} particular person 's car is like , or", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It seems like something like the middle one is {disfmarker} is more natural .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So I don't know why the {pause} well - matched is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but actually the well {disfmarker} well the well - matched um , uh , I mean the {disfmarker} the well - matched condition is not like , uh , the one in TI - digits where uh , you have all the training , uh , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . It 's like , this is not calibrated by SNR or something . The well - matched has also some {disfmarker} some mismatch in that which is other than the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The well wa matched has mismatch ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "has {disfmarker} has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Perfect to match .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "because it 's artificially added noise .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But this is natural recording .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So remind me of what well - matched meant ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the well - matched is like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 've told me many times .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , so it means that if the database is large enough , it 's matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because it", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "in each set you have a range of conditions {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So , I mean , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much {disfmarker} You know , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's sort of saying if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not guaranteed though .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , it 's not guaranteed .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah because the m the main {disfmarker} major reason for the m", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Again , if you have enough {disfmarker} if you have enough {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "No yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you {disfmarker} much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , um , you {disfmarker} you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and {disfmarker} and record noise conditions , or something , and then {disfmarker} I don't think that 's very realistic , I mean I th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I you know , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and {disfmarker} and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , So What else is going on ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm . You Yeah . We are playing {disfmarker} we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . Um , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the um , mel energies which I already tested but without the um frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is spectral subtraction typically done on the {disfmarker} after the mel , uh , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Does it matter , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I d I don't know . Well , it 's both {disfmarker} both uh , cases can i", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . So - some of the proposal , uh , we 're doing this on the bin {disfmarker} on the FFT bins ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "others on the um , mel energies . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's {disfmarker} which one might be better or {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't know . Yeah , but", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But for speech recognition , it may not . I mean it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . So you 're going to do a linear weighting anyway after that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , it may not be really a big different .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It I Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , uh , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean they just do the same thing again once more .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So , there 's something that is good about doing it {disfmarker} I mean , to cleaning it up once more .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it might be .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's what", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean maybe one or {disfmarker} one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That 's wh Yeah . So ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "you know ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean just to see all {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "How is it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does {disfmarker} I mean , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're {disfmarker} that you 're adding together the two signals , how is {disfmarker} how is that differ from signal subspace ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The signal subspace ? The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The signal subspace approach has actually an in - built Wiener filtering in it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter . Is the signal is {disfmarker} is a signal substrate .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , oh , OK so the difference is the KL .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the different {disfmarker} the c the {disfmarker} the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . It 's {disfmarker} it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions , and in colored noise .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wiener filtering . It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a cascade of two s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wiener filter . Yeah , in general , you don't {disfmarker} that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . Actually . Um , that was something that uh , Herve and I were talking about with um , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from uh , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Yeah . So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some {disfmarker} something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then do a something in the second stage which could take it further .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What was your point about {disfmarker} about colored noise there ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , the colored noise uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "the colored noise {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the v the signal subspace approach has {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker} it actually depends on inverting the matrices . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} ac the covariance matrix of the noise . So if {disfmarker} if it is not positive definite ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean it has a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So you should do spectral subtraction and then add noise .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then make the noise white ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I was only half kidding . I mean if you {disfmarker} sort of {vocalsound} you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then you {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then add a little bit l noise {disfmarker} noise addition {disfmarker} I mean , that sort of what J {disfmarker} JRASTA does , in a way .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little {disfmarker} adding a little noise ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Huh ? Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "in order to get rid of the effects of noise .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . So there is this . And maybe we {disfmarker} well we find some people so that {vocalsound} uh , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's um , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , {vocalsound} uh f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . So . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a nonlinear eh uh , transformation in the cepstral domain .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And uh , there is a way to approximate this using uh , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for {vocalsound} uh , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Who is doing this ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and another in {pause} uh , Lucent that I met at ICASSP .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Who 's the guy in Grenada ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "uh ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , Jose Carlos Segura .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I don't know him .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "This VTS has been proposed by CMU ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is it the CMU ? Yeah , yeah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Originally the idea was from CMU .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "From C .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Well , it 's again a different thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that could be tried . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , uh , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of uh , noise removal , uh , with {disfmarker} with these other things we have ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh , looks like a worthy thing to {disfmarker} to do here .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah . But , yeah . But for sure there 's required to {disfmarker} that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and , for sure the on - line normalization may be the LDA filter . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well one of the {disfmarker} seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too {disfmarker} or {pause} I guess not next week ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "week and a half , uh , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . Um . You know . So , I mean one way would {disfmarker} he Here are some alternate visions . I mean one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same {disfmarker} different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to {disfmarker} to pick two pol two plausible things , and {disfmarker} and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and then , you know , uh , but , w um , uh , he 'll have some ideas on that too .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The other thing is to , uh {disfmarker} Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we {disfmarker} we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some {disfmarker} I mean , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's {disfmarker} Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we {disfmarker} if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization {pause} to make it work @ @ .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So they 're making {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive {disfmarker} artificially added noise or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sort of a {disfmarker} sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I m I guess Guenter Hirsch is in charge of that . Guenter Hirsch and TI .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Maybe Roger {disfmarker} r Roger , maybe in charge of .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh , uh , generating HTK scripts to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I don't know . There are {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} there is no {disfmarker} I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mis - Mississippi State maybe ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah . I 'm not sure about that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah , so that 'll be a little {disfmarker} little task in itself .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , well we 've {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . So we we did the Broadcast News evaluation", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and some of the focus conditions were noisy and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It had additive n", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But we {disfmarker} but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi uh , multi - stream and {disfmarker} and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But it , you know , we di stuff we did helped . I mean it , did something .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Um , now we have this um , meeting data . You know , like the stuff we 're {comment} recording right now ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and uh , that we have uh , for the {disfmarker} uh , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just {disfmarker} noisy and reverberant actually . It 's the far field mike . And uh , we have uh , the digits that we do at the end of these things . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with {disfmarker} with uh , connected digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , but uh , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard {disfmarker} uh , Switchboard recognizer ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh , no training , {vocalsound} from this , just {disfmarker} just plain using the Switchboard .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . You just take the Switchboard trained {disfmarker} ? Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . Now there are some adaptation though ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah . That 's cool .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "that {disfmarker} that uh , Andreas has been playing with ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but we 're hop uh , actually uh , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , uh , some of the large vocabulary data . Um , I mean , I guess no one had done {disfmarker} yet done test one on the distant mike using uh , the SRI recognizer and , uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} not that I know of .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , cuz everybody 's scared .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the {disfmarker} the CPU or something {vocalsound} trying to {disfmarker} trying to do it ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That 's right", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but uh , yeah . But , you 're right that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's a real good point , that uh , we {disfmarker} we don't know yeah , uh , I mean , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the uh {disfmarker} in the evaluation .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , But um , Good . OK . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't have good result , with the {disfmarker} inc including the new parameters ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't have good result . Are {pause} similar or a little bit worse .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "With what {disfmarker} what other new p new parameter ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 're talking about your voicing ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So maybe {disfmarker} You probably need to back up a bit", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "seeing as how Sunil ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the coe the cepstrum coefficient ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for {disfmarker} of the spec si uh , spectrum of the signal and {disfmarker} and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I 'm so sorry . I didn't get it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Nuh . Well . Anyway . The {disfmarker} First you have the sp the spectrum of the signal ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mmm . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I do the difference {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I found a difference at the variance of this different", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because , suppose we {disfmarker} we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n uh , noise .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if the variance is small , maybe you have uh , speech .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "To {disfmarker} to To {disfmarker} The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And we try to use this new feature {disfmarker} feature . And I did experiment {disfmarker} I need to change {disfmarker} to obtain this new feature I need to change the size {disfmarker} the window size {disfmarker} size . of the a of the {disfmarker} analysis window size , to have more information .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Make it longer .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , sixty - two point five milliseconds I think .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And I do {disfmarker} I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the {disfmarker} with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence {disfmarker} silence", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Unvoiced . Well .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and to {disfmarker} to concat this new feature . But the result are n with the neural network I have more or less the same result .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "As using just the cepstrum ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Result .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh , is it with TI - digits , or with {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But Doesn't help .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I really wonder though .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean we 've had these discussions before , and {disfmarker} and one of the things that struck me was that {disfmarker} uh , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we um {disfmarker} whenever you condense things , uh , in an irreversible way , um , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for uh particular , uh , phonetic units . Um , but , you 'll do throw something away . And so the question is , uh , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . And um . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking \" oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice {disfmarker} voiced property whatever . \" So that {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Maybe that helps to drive the {disfmarker} the thought process of coming up with the features . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , \" well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? \" So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT uh , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "To know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or {disfmarker} or whatever", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wi - with what targets ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Voiced , unvoiced is like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , no .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . Or anything .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No the {disfmarker} just the same {disfmarker} same way we 're using {disfmarker} I mean , the same way that we 're using the filter bank .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Phones .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Exact way {disfmarker} the same way we 're using the filter bank .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , the filter bank is good for all the reasons that we say it 's good . But it 's different . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or uh , um , adding probabilities , I mean , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the {disfmarker} essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is so much variability in the power spectrum .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , uh , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and {disfmarker} and uh , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to uh , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . So I mean the {disfmarker} i i It 's true there 's lots of variability ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , um , uh , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about uh , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily {disfmarker} not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , d", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , so anyway , it 's just a thought , that {disfmarker} that if we {disfmarker} if we had that {disfmarker} maybe it 's just a baseline uh , which would show us \" well , what are we really getting out of the filters \" , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the {disfmarker} But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . But , maybe the neural net and the H M Ms could figure it out quicker than you .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "It 's just a thought .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker} I will try to do that .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one um p one thing is like what {disfmarker} before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the {disfmarker} th what we did was like , I {disfmarker} I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the HMM on that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That is just a binary feature and that seems to be {vocalsound} improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . That 's it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wait {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You did some experiment .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Well , in {disfmarker} in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and it was very short . But Italian was like very {disfmarker} it was a huge improvement on Italian .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean . To {disfmarker} maybe to distinguish between voice sound and unvoiced sounds ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "There was a paper in ICASSP {disfmarker} this ICASSP {disfmarker} over the uh extracting some higher - order uh , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can {disfmarker} I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . It {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Talking cumulants or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Huh ? Uh , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cumulants or something .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't remember .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} No .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It wa it was taking the , um {disfmarker} It was about finding the higher - order moments of {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "cumulants , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "maybe higher - order cumulants", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah . It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Or m e", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , he was showing up uh some {disfmarker} something on noisy speech ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "some improvement on the noisy speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Some small vocabulary tasks .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So it was on PLP derived cepstral coefficients .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but again {disfmarker} You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So n neural network uh , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "trying to f to Moments , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . So . I mean , it doesn't do it very specifically ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and pretty {disfmarker} you know . But .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , anything on your end you want to talk about ? Uh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , nothing I wanna really talk about . I can {disfmarker} I can just uh , um , share a little bit {disfmarker} Sunil hasn't {disfmarker} hasn't heard about uh , what I 've been doing .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , so , um , I told you I was {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , um , trying to propose um , uh , your next your {disfmarker} your following years of {disfmarker} of your PHD work , trying {disfmarker} trying to find a project to {disfmarker} to define and {disfmarker} and to work on . So , I 've been , uh , looking into , um , doing something about r uh , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , um , the idea is you have all these {disfmarker} these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , uh , frication , that kinda stuff , um , building robust um , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . Um , and , um , these {disfmarker} these primary detectors , um , will be , uh , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , um , doing things , um , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , uh , graphical models to {disfmarker} to detect these {disfmarker} these , uh , acoustic events . And , um , so I {disfmarker} I been {disfmarker} I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , um , exactly what {disfmarker} what kind of acoustic events I need , what {disfmarker} um , what acoustic events will provide a {disfmarker} a good enough coverage to {disfmarker} in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , um , once I decide a set of acoustic events , um , h how do I {disfmarker} how do I get labels ? Training data for {disfmarker} for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the {disfmarker} the models themselves , the {disfmarker} the primary detectors . Um , so , um , I kinda see {disfmarker} like , after {disfmarker} after building the primary detectors I see um , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into {disfmarker} into a um , Gaussian mixtures HMM back - end , um , and doing recognition . Um . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's just generally what I 've been looking at .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "By {disfmarker} by the way , uh , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you know , um , if you {disfmarker} if a multi - band approach was helpful as {disfmarker} as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "that one might be another thing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um , were {disfmarker} were you gonna say something ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh . It looked {disfmarker} OK , never mind . Um , yeah . And so , this {disfmarker} this past week um , I 've been uh , looking a little bit into uh , TRAPS um , and doing {disfmarker} doing TRAPS on {disfmarker} on these e events too , just , um , seeing {disfmarker} seeing if that 's possible . Uh , and um , other than that , uh , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Oh no . So you live in a cardboard box in the street now", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "or , no ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , well , s s som something like that .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "In Albany , yeah . Yeah . And uh . Yep . That 's it .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Suni - i d ' you v did uh {disfmarker} did you find a place ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is that out of the way ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "not yet . Uh , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . So . And she would get back to me on Monday . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's only thing I have and Diane has a few more houses . She 's going to take some pictures and send me after I go back . So it 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . So you 're not down here permanently yet ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "No . I 'm going back to OGI today .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Ah ! Oh , OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "OK . And then , you 're coming back uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , i I mean , I {disfmarker} I p I plan to be here on thirty - first .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Thirty - first ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Thirty - first .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Well , I mean i i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I hope .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a while", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So , in that case , I 'm going to be here on thirty - first definitely .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "until you {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . I 've got a spare bedroom right now .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh . OK . Thanks . That sure is nice of you . So , it may be he needs more than me .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh r oh . Oh no , no . My {disfmarker} my cardboard box is actually a nice spacious two bedroom apartment .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So a two bedroom cardboard box . Th - that 's great .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Thanks Dave .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Do y wanna say anything about {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you actually been {disfmarker} Uh , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were {disfmarker} you were mentioning . Is that {disfmarker} that something worth talking about , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , it 's {disfmarker} Well , um , it {disfmarker} I don't think it directly relates . Um , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to um , look at um , how people respond to formant changes , I think . Um . So he {disfmarker} he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic um , spectrum . And he wanted to look at um , how the energy is moving {pause} over time in that spectrum and compare that to the {disfmarker} to the listener tests . And , um . So , I gave him a PLP spectrum . And {disfmarker} to um {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . So I took the um , PLP LPC coefficients and um , I found the roots . This was something that Stephane suggested . I found the roots of the um , LPC polynomial to , um , track the peaks in the , um , PLP LPC spectra .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} Is that the aligned s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's a r root LPC , uh , of some sort .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , no .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "instead of the log you took the root square , I mean cubic root or something . What di w I didn't get that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No , no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's taking the {disfmarker} finding the roots of the LPC polynomial .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Polynomial . Yeah . Is that the line spectral {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's like line spectral pairs .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's like line sp", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "to sort of ? But it {disfmarker} But uh , you know . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was {disfmarker} was taking the LPC polynomial and {disfmarker} and uh , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and uh , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny {vocalsound} values in {disfmarker} in real speech ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So you just {disfmarker} You typically just get a few roots ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You know , two or three ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well you get these complex pairs .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "something like that ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So , um , if {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Every root that 's {disfmarker} Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root {comment} is gonna be a c complex pair ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "um , of a complex value and its conjugate . Um . So for each {disfmarker} And if you look at that on the unit circle , um , one of these {disfmarker} one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just {disfmarker} So , um , f for the {disfmarker} I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "which give me s which gives me three or four peak positions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This is from synthetic speech , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So if it 's from synthetic speech then maybe it 'll be cleaner . I mean for real speech in real {disfmarker} then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are {disfmarker} don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "How did {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but mostly they are .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mostly they do .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and what {disfmarker} I mean in {disfmarker} in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "because it was just a question of quantization . Uh , we were just you know , storing {disfmarker} It was {disfmarker} We were doing , uh , stored speech , uh , quantization .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but uh , in your case um , you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} there 's some of that , yes .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Well they are much lower .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? I mean h how is the speech created ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "It was created from a synthesizer , and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I bet it {disfmarker} it might have {disfmarker} may have been", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} d d this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "In {disfmarker} in fact w we {disfmarker} we could get , um , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , um , w one thing that the , um , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , um , is that I {disfmarker} I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . Um , Stephane suggested looking at each complex pair as a {disfmarker} like a se second - order IIR filter .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to um , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . Except that you don't have the psycho - acoustic modeling in that .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , so the actual {disfmarker} So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . You 're getting the {disfmarker} Again , you 're getting sort of the , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You 're getting something that is {disfmarker} is uh , af strongly affected by the PLP model . And so it 's more psycho - acoustic . So it 's a little {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's sort of {disfmarker} sort of a different thing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . That 's sort of the point .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban uh , formant centers are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean , that 's {disfmarker} Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as {disfmarker} as what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , uh , band center and band width , and um , um {disfmarker} But . Yeah . O K . So , uh , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and . Yeah . Great ! Well , welcome .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess we should do digits quickly .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I almost forgot that .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Digits .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I almost forgot our daily digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You wanna go ahead ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" } ]

[ { "content": "Uh , is it the twenty - fourth ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "now we 're on .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh Chuck , is the mike type wireless {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "wireless headset ? OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "For you it is .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . We uh {disfmarker} we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too {disfmarker} not too hot , not too cold , they were {disfmarker} you know , they were {vocalsound} uh , far enough away that you got more background noise , uh , and uh {disfmarker} and so forth", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but they weren't so close that they got quite the {disfmarker} you know , the really good {disfmarker} No , th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "they {disfmarker} I mean they didn't {disfmarker} Wait a minute . I 'm saying that wrong . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . So it was no {disfmarker} didn't seem to be a good point to them . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "There 's uh , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel uh , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we {disfmarker} there seemed to be very strong opinions for uh , getting rid of lapels .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The mike number is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . One .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then the channel number 's usually one less than that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . So you should be zero , actually .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hello ? Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "For your uh , channel number .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep , yep .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . no , they don't {disfmarker} don't have a {disfmarker} have any Indian pronunciations .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So what we usually do is um , we typically will have our meetings", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then at the end of the meetings we 'll read the digits . Everybody goes around and reads the digits on the {disfmarker} the bottom of their forms .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Session R", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "R - nineteen ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "R - nineteen .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . We 're {disfmarker} This is session R - nineteen .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you say so . O K . Do we have anything like an agenda ? What 's going on ? Um . I guess um . So . One thing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer , right . Um , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe uh , and then just uh , I guess uh , progress reports individually , and then uh , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . Um .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I could say a few words about um , some of the uh , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Why don't you start with that ? That 's sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "We um {disfmarker} So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , uh , to use as sort of a compute farm . And um , uh , we ordered uh , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and um , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , uh , in addition , we 're running {disfmarker} So the plan for using these is , uh , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all uh , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to um , {vocalsound} run things using P - make and Customs . You don't actually have to write P - make scripts and things like that . The simplest thing {disfmarker} And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "How about an email that points to the FAQ ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "there 's a c", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "you know what I 'm saying ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "so that you can {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , there 's a command , uh , that you can use called \" run command \" . \" Run dash command \" , \" run hyphen command \" . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , uh , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and uh {disfmarker} and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can try this as a simple test with uh , the L S command . So you can say \" run dash command L S \" , and , um , it 'll actually export that {vocalsound} LS command to some machine in the institute , and um , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and um {disfmarker} And that 's a simple way to get started using {disfmarker} using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , {vocalsound} um , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that uh , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . Uh , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like \" run command \" , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . So . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . Each machine has an attribute which is the name of itself . So you can give that as an attribute and it 'll only run on that . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and uh , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're {disfmarker} Uh . The SRI recognizer has all this P - make customs stuff built into it .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "is the rough division of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Exactly . Yeah , you know , I {disfmarker} I sort of got started {comment} using the recognizer just recently and uh , uh I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , \" uh , are you running two {vocalsound} trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . \" So I had to back off a little bit . But , soon as we get some more machines then uh {disfmarker} then we 'll have more compute available . So , um , that 's just a quick update about what we 've got . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , I have {disfmarker} I have a question about the uh , parallelization ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , um , let 's say I have like , a thousand little {disfmarker} little jobs to do ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , how do I do it with \" run command \" ? I mean do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "You could write a script uh , which called run command on each sub - job", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . A thousand times ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "because um , you don't wanna saturate the network . Uh , so , um , you know , you should {disfmarker} you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , uh , just because then it would keep other people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , too much file transfer and stuff .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with {disfmarker} if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . Um . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , um , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use \" run command \" , uh , to only have ten of those going at a time . And uh , then , when one of those finished you 'd fire off another one . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I remember I {disfmarker} I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or {disfmarker} or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were {disfmarker} everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and {vocalsound} and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yep . Yeah , exactly . Yeah , you have to be a little bit careful .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "as I recall , but . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , but uh , you can also {disfmarker} If you have that level of parallelization um , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in {disfmarker} in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use um , P - make", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Just do P - make .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and you basically write a Make file that uh , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "s Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and when you run P - make , uh , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and {disfmarker} and then a number ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and that number represents how many uh , machines to use at once . And then it 'll make sure that it never goes above that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "I can get some documentation .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not systematically queued . I mean all the jobs are running . If you launch twenty jobs , they are all running . Alright .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It depends . If you {disfmarker} \" Run command \" , that I mentioned before , is {disfmarker} doesn't know about other things that you might be running .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and they wouldn't know about each other . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and it can control , uh , how many it runs simultaneously .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So \" run command \" doesn't use P - make , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It uses \" export \" underlyingly . But , if you {disfmarker} i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know {disfmarker} any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So why would one use that rather than P - make ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Well , if you have , um {disfmarker} Like , for example , uh if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , uh {disfmarker} an HTK training job that you know is gonna take uh , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , uh , the machine you typically use , you can say \" run command \" and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and {disfmarker} and run your job there .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , there are um {disfmarker} Right . So some of the machines at the institute , um , have this attribute called \" no evict \" . And if you specify that , in {disfmarker} in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and {disfmarker} and they were at lunch ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted {disfmarker} your job {comment} will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . Automatically . So {disfmarker} which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . So . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus {disfmarker} the attribute , you know , \" no evict \" , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , what {disfmarker} what about {disfmarker} I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you {disfmarker} if something required {disfmarker} if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how that works .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , it seems like Andreas did something for that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . We can ask him sometime .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev {disfmarker} dev console or something .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "You probably wouldn't ordinarily , though . Yeah . Right ? You probably wouldn't ordinarily .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean you sort of {disfmarker} you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , \" screw this \" ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so , um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah . I {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} I 'm not sure about that one .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But uh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , I need a little orientation about this environment and uh scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , I think maybe I 'll ask you after the meeting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and also uh , Stephane 's a {disfmarker} a really good resource for that if you can't find me .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yep . OK , sure", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Especially with regard to the Aurora stuff .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He {disfmarker} he knows that stuff better than I do .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . Well , why don't we uh , uh , Sunil since you 're {vocalsound} haven't {disfmarker} haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's {disfmarker} what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah . So , uh , shall I start from {disfmarker} Well I don't know how may I {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} OK . Uh , I think I 'll start from the post uh Aurora submission maybe .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah , after the submission the {disfmarker} what I 've been working on mainly was to take {disfmarker} take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in {disfmarker} in ours . So {disfmarker} So I tried uh , And u First I tried just LDA . And then I found that uh , I mean , if {disfmarker} if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Are y are you saying LDA ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "LDA . OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , just {disfmarker} just the LDA filters . I just plug in {disfmarker} I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . But the LDA filter that I used was different from what we submitted in the proposal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What I did was {vocalsound} I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , uh , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , uh , narrow {disfmarker} narrow band LDA filter that we submitted uh , I got new filters . So that seems to be giving {disfmarker} uh , improving over their uh , system . Slightly . But , not very significantly . And uh , that was uh , showing any improvement over {disfmarker} final {disfmarker} by plugging in an LDA . And uh , so then after {disfmarker} after that I {disfmarker} I added uh , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a {disfmarker} a mean and variance update time constant and {disfmarker} which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But um , I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value {disfmarker} I mean , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . That 's all I found So I have to . Uh , Yeah . And uh , uh , the other {disfmarker} other thing what I tried was , I just um , uh , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf uh th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the {disfmarker} I mean the w speech and nonspeech . And uh , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , can you back up a second , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I missed something , uh , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , uh , uh things got better again ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "or is it ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "No . No , things didn't get better with the same time constant that we used .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Did it not ? No , no . With a different time constant .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "With the different time constant I found that {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "because I {disfmarker} I found that I would have change the value of the update factor .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No you didn't , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But I didn't play it with play {disfmarker} play quite a bit to make it better than .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , it 's still not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I mean , the on - line normalization didn't give me any improvement .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And uh , so ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "oh yeah So I just stopped there with the uh , speech enhancement . The {disfmarker} the other thing what I tried was the {disfmarker} adding the uh , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the {disfmarker} the second {disfmarker} the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , uh , use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So people won't even have to worry about , uh , doing speech - nonspeech then .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's , that 's what the feeling is like . They 're going to give the endpoint information .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "everybody does that ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what {disfmarker} what are the best features that you should use .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean clearly they 're interact . So I don't know that I entirely agree with it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but it might be uh {disfmarker} In some ways it might be better t to {disfmarker} rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But , you know . It 's {disfmarker} it 's still someth reasonable .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , are people supposed to assume that there is uh {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "No . No . That i I {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I guess that is {disfmarker} that is where the consensus is . Like y you will {disfmarker} you will {disfmarker} You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because you don't have the mistakes in it . Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} The baseline itself {disfmarker} I mean , it improves by twenty - two percent . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . w", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean you don't need any further speech enhancement with fifty . So , uh ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So the baseline itself improves by fifty percent .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , by fifty percent .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So it 's g it 's gonna be harder to {vocalsound} beat that actually .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "so that is when uh , the {disfmarker} the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And I think they have {disfmarker} they have actually changed their qualification c criteria now . And uh , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK . No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good {disfmarker} good update .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Ye Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I came back and I started working on uh , some other speech enhancement algorithm . I mean , so {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . These are the main uh , approaches where people have tried ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "so just to {disfmarker} just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I {disfmarker} I 've been working on this uh , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . I have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to test whether it works first or not", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . So , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So {disfmarker} so now you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so we we 'll have a {vocalsound} single place where the stuff is .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cool . Um , so maybe uh , just briefly , you could remind us about the related experiments . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , where you were also combining something {disfmarker} both of you I guess were both combining something from the uh , French Telecom system with {vocalsound} the u uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . It was system one . So", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "we {disfmarker} The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are uh , with noise removed .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I let me {disfmarker} let me just stop you there . So then , one distinction is that uh , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no there is a slight different . Uh I mean , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . But that 's what I mean .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But u u Sorry ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah , I 'm not being {disfmarker} I 'm not being clear .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And so one difference is that , I guess you were taking spectra .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads uh , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like {disfmarker} There may be a slight difference in the way {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "right ? or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . I mean , if we are using our own code for th I mean that {disfmarker} that could be the only difference .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , there is no other difference .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But you got some sort of different result . So I 'm trying to understand it . But uh , I th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , well I think we should uh , have a table with all the result because I don't know I uh , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied uh , proposal - one system after this without {disfmarker} well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the {disfmarker} the LDA filters ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the filter {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Only LDA . Yeah . Af - I {disfmarker} after that I added on - line normalization , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So we just tried directly to {disfmarker} to just , keep the system as it was and , um , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves uh , signif significantly . Um , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because if we keep the value that was submitted uh , it doesn't help at all . You can remove on - line normalization , or put it , it doesn't change anything . Uh , uh , as long as you have the spectral subtraction . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but , uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I assume .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and see where i where the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} where they were different and what we can learn from it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "without any change . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's the new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with changes ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "with", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "because we change it the system to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I mean the {disfmarker} the new LDA filters .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "w Uh , it doesn't seem to hurt on TI - digits , finally .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Maybe because of other changes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , well there are some {vocalsound} minor changes , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , um , always better than {disfmarker} it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . And it 's still slightly worse for well - matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Um , but this is not significant . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , uh , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . Even with very minor {disfmarker} uh , even if it 's only slightly worse for well - matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And significantly better for HM . Uh , but , well . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , uh , uh , mainly because of uh , when you p you plug the um , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and MM ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "so , um , I guess what will happen {disfmarker} I don't know what will happen . But , the different contribution , I think , for the different test set will be more even .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Because the {disfmarker} your improvement on HM and MM will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . But the {pause} the well - matched may still {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the MM {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "MM and HM are going to be v hugely affected by it . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , so um , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But they d the {disfmarker} everything I mean is like , but there that 's how they reduce {disfmarker} why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some {disfmarker} something on .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But are they changing the weighting ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . So there 's nothing on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't understand that .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess I {disfmarker} I haven't been part of the discussion , so , um , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Usual .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "in this case . Unusual .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because , um , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ {disfmarker} particular person 's car is like , or", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It seems like something like the middle one is {disfmarker} is more natural .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So I don't know why the {pause} well - matched is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but actually the well {disfmarker} well the well - matched um , uh , I mean the {disfmarker} the well - matched condition is not like , uh , the one in TI - digits where uh , you have all the training , uh , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . It 's like , this is not calibrated by SNR or something . The well - matched has also some {disfmarker} some mismatch in that which is other than the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The well wa matched has mismatch ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "has {disfmarker} has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Perfect to match .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "because it 's artificially added noise .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But this is natural recording .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So remind me of what well - matched meant ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the well - matched is like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 've told me many times .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , so it means that if the database is large enough , it 's matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because it", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "in each set you have a range of conditions {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So , I mean , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much {disfmarker} You know , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's sort of saying if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not guaranteed though .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , it 's not guaranteed .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah because the m the main {disfmarker} major reason for the m", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Again , if you have enough {disfmarker} if you have enough {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "No yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you {disfmarker} much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , um , you {disfmarker} you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and {disfmarker} and record noise conditions , or something , and then {disfmarker} I don't think that 's very realistic , I mean I th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I you know , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and {disfmarker} and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , So What else is going on ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm . You Yeah . We are playing {disfmarker} we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . Um , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the um , mel energies which I already tested but without the um frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is spectral subtraction typically done on the {disfmarker} after the mel , uh , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Does it matter , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I d I don't know . Well , it 's both {disfmarker} both uh , cases can i", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . So - some of the proposal , uh , we 're doing this on the bin {disfmarker} on the FFT bins ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "others on the um , mel energies . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's {disfmarker} which one might be better or {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't know . Yeah , but", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But for speech recognition , it may not . I mean it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . So you 're going to do a linear weighting anyway after that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , it may not be really a big different .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It I Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , uh , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean they just do the same thing again once more .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So , there 's something that is good about doing it {disfmarker} I mean , to cleaning it up once more .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it might be .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's what", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean maybe one or {disfmarker} one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That 's wh Yeah . So ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "you know ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean just to see all {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "How is it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does {disfmarker} I mean , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're {disfmarker} that you 're adding together the two signals , how is {disfmarker} how is that differ from signal subspace ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The signal subspace ? The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The signal subspace approach has actually an in - built Wiener filtering in it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter . Is the signal is {disfmarker} is a signal substrate .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , oh , OK so the difference is the KL .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the different {disfmarker} the c the {disfmarker} the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . It 's {disfmarker} it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions , and in colored noise .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wiener filtering . It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a cascade of two s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wiener filter . Yeah , in general , you don't {disfmarker} that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . Actually . Um , that was something that uh , Herve and I were talking about with um , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from uh , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Yeah . So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some {disfmarker} something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then do a something in the second stage which could take it further .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What was your point about {disfmarker} about colored noise there ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , the colored noise uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "the colored noise {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the v the signal subspace approach has {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker} it actually depends on inverting the matrices . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} ac the covariance matrix of the noise . So if {disfmarker} if it is not positive definite ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean it has a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So you should do spectral subtraction and then add noise .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then make the noise white ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I was only half kidding . I mean if you {disfmarker} sort of {vocalsound} you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then you {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then add a little bit l noise {disfmarker} noise addition {disfmarker} I mean , that sort of what J {disfmarker} JRASTA does , in a way .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little {disfmarker} adding a little noise ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Huh ? Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "in order to get rid of the effects of noise .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . So there is this . And maybe we {disfmarker} well we find some people so that {vocalsound} uh , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's um , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , {vocalsound} uh f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . So . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a nonlinear eh uh , transformation in the cepstral domain .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And uh , there is a way to approximate this using uh , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for {vocalsound} uh , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Who is doing this ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and another in {pause} uh , Lucent that I met at ICASSP .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Who 's the guy in Grenada ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "uh ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , Jose Carlos Segura .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I don't know him .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "This VTS has been proposed by CMU ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is it the CMU ? Yeah , yeah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Originally the idea was from CMU .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "From C .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Well , it 's again a different thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that could be tried . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , uh , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of uh , noise removal , uh , with {disfmarker} with these other things we have ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh , looks like a worthy thing to {disfmarker} to do here .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah . But , yeah . But for sure there 's required to {disfmarker} that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and , for sure the on - line normalization may be the LDA filter . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well one of the {disfmarker} seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too {disfmarker} or {pause} I guess not next week ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "week and a half , uh , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . Um . You know . So , I mean one way would {disfmarker} he Here are some alternate visions . I mean one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same {disfmarker} different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to {disfmarker} to pick two pol two plausible things , and {disfmarker} and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and then , you know , uh , but , w um , uh , he 'll have some ideas on that too .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The other thing is to , uh {disfmarker} Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we {disfmarker} we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some {disfmarker} I mean , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's {disfmarker} Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we {disfmarker} if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization {pause} to make it work @ @ .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So they 're making {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive {disfmarker} artificially added noise or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sort of a {disfmarker} sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I m I guess Guenter Hirsch is in charge of that . Guenter Hirsch and TI .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Maybe Roger {disfmarker} r Roger , maybe in charge of .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh , uh , generating HTK scripts to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I don't know . There are {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} there is no {disfmarker} I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mis - Mississippi State maybe ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah . I 'm not sure about that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah , so that 'll be a little {disfmarker} little task in itself .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , well we 've {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . So we we did the Broadcast News evaluation", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and some of the focus conditions were noisy and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It had additive n", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But we {disfmarker} but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi uh , multi - stream and {disfmarker} and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But it , you know , we di stuff we did helped . I mean it , did something .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Um , now we have this um , meeting data . You know , like the stuff we 're {comment} recording right now ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and uh , that we have uh , for the {disfmarker} uh , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just {disfmarker} noisy and reverberant actually . It 's the far field mike . And uh , we have uh , the digits that we do at the end of these things . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with {disfmarker} with uh , connected digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , but uh , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard {disfmarker} uh , Switchboard recognizer ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh , no training , {vocalsound} from this , just {disfmarker} just plain using the Switchboard .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . You just take the Switchboard trained {disfmarker} ? Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . Now there are some adaptation though ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah . That 's cool .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "that {disfmarker} that uh , Andreas has been playing with ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but we 're hop uh , actually uh , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , uh , some of the large vocabulary data . Um , I mean , I guess no one had done {disfmarker} yet done test one on the distant mike using uh , the SRI recognizer and , uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} not that I know of .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , cuz everybody 's scared .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the {disfmarker} the CPU or something {vocalsound} trying to {disfmarker} trying to do it ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That 's right", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but uh , yeah . But , you 're right that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's a real good point , that uh , we {disfmarker} we don't know yeah , uh , I mean , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the uh {disfmarker} in the evaluation .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , But um , Good . OK . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't have good result , with the {disfmarker} inc including the new parameters ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't have good result . Are {pause} similar or a little bit worse .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "With what {disfmarker} what other new p new parameter ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 're talking about your voicing ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So maybe {disfmarker} You probably need to back up a bit", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "seeing as how Sunil ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the coe the cepstrum coefficient ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for {disfmarker} of the spec si uh , spectrum of the signal and {disfmarker} and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I 'm so sorry . I didn't get it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Nuh . Well . Anyway . The {disfmarker} First you have the sp the spectrum of the signal ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mmm . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I do the difference {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I found a difference at the variance of this different", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because , suppose we {disfmarker} we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n uh , noise .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if the variance is small , maybe you have uh , speech .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "To {disfmarker} to To {disfmarker} The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And we try to use this new feature {disfmarker} feature . And I did experiment {disfmarker} I need to change {disfmarker} to obtain this new feature I need to change the size {disfmarker} the window size {disfmarker} size . of the a of the {disfmarker} analysis window size , to have more information .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Make it longer .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , sixty - two point five milliseconds I think .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And I do {disfmarker} I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the {disfmarker} with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence {disfmarker} silence", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Unvoiced . Well .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and to {disfmarker} to concat this new feature . But the result are n with the neural network I have more or less the same result .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "As using just the cepstrum ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Result .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh , is it with TI - digits , or with {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But Doesn't help .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I really wonder though .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean we 've had these discussions before , and {disfmarker} and one of the things that struck me was that {disfmarker} uh , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we um {disfmarker} whenever you condense things , uh , in an irreversible way , um , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for uh particular , uh , phonetic units . Um , but , you 'll do throw something away . And so the question is , uh , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . And um . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking \" oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice {disfmarker} voiced property whatever . \" So that {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Maybe that helps to drive the {disfmarker} the thought process of coming up with the features . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , \" well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? \" So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT uh , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "To know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or {disfmarker} or whatever", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wi - with what targets ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Voiced , unvoiced is like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , no .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . Or anything .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No the {disfmarker} just the same {disfmarker} same way we 're using {disfmarker} I mean , the same way that we 're using the filter bank .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Phones .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Exact way {disfmarker} the same way we 're using the filter bank .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , the filter bank is good for all the reasons that we say it 's good . But it 's different . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or uh , um , adding probabilities , I mean , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the {disfmarker} essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is so much variability in the power spectrum .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , uh , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and {disfmarker} and uh , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to uh , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . So I mean the {disfmarker} i i It 's true there 's lots of variability ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , um , uh , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about uh , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily {disfmarker} not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , d", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , so anyway , it 's just a thought , that {disfmarker} that if we {disfmarker} if we had that {disfmarker} maybe it 's just a baseline uh , which would show us \" well , what are we really getting out of the filters \" , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the {disfmarker} But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . But , maybe the neural net and the H M Ms could figure it out quicker than you .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "It 's just a thought .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker} I will try to do that .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one um p one thing is like what {disfmarker} before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the {disfmarker} th what we did was like , I {disfmarker} I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the HMM on that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That is just a binary feature and that seems to be {vocalsound} improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . That 's it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wait {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You did some experiment .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Well , in {disfmarker} in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and it was very short . But Italian was like very {disfmarker} it was a huge improvement on Italian .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean . To {disfmarker} maybe to distinguish between voice sound and unvoiced sounds ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "There was a paper in ICASSP {disfmarker} this ICASSP {disfmarker} over the uh extracting some higher - order uh , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can {disfmarker} I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . It {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Talking cumulants or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Huh ? Uh , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cumulants or something .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't remember .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} No .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It wa it was taking the , um {disfmarker} It was about finding the higher - order moments of {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "cumulants , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "maybe higher - order cumulants", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah . It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Or m e", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , he was showing up uh some {disfmarker} something on noisy speech ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "some improvement on the noisy speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Some small vocabulary tasks .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So it was on PLP derived cepstral coefficients .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but again {disfmarker} You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So n neural network uh , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "trying to f to Moments , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . So . I mean , it doesn't do it very specifically ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and pretty {disfmarker} you know . But .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , anything on your end you want to talk about ? Uh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , nothing I wanna really talk about . I can {disfmarker} I can just uh , um , share a little bit {disfmarker} Sunil hasn't {disfmarker} hasn't heard about uh , what I 've been doing .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , so , um , I told you I was {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , um , trying to propose um , uh , your next your {disfmarker} your following years of {disfmarker} of your PHD work , trying {disfmarker} trying to find a project to {disfmarker} to define and {disfmarker} and to work on . So , I 've been , uh , looking into , um , doing something about r uh , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , um , the idea is you have all these {disfmarker} these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , uh , frication , that kinda stuff , um , building robust um , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . Um , and , um , these {disfmarker} these primary detectors , um , will be , uh , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , um , doing things , um , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , uh , graphical models to {disfmarker} to detect these {disfmarker} these , uh , acoustic events . And , um , so I {disfmarker} I been {disfmarker} I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , um , exactly what {disfmarker} what kind of acoustic events I need , what {disfmarker} um , what acoustic events will provide a {disfmarker} a good enough coverage to {disfmarker} in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , um , once I decide a set of acoustic events , um , h how do I {disfmarker} how do I get labels ? Training data for {disfmarker} for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the {disfmarker} the models themselves , the {disfmarker} the primary detectors . Um , so , um , I kinda see {disfmarker} like , after {disfmarker} after building the primary detectors I see um , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into {disfmarker} into a um , Gaussian mixtures HMM back - end , um , and doing recognition . Um . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's just generally what I 've been looking at .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "By {disfmarker} by the way , uh , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you know , um , if you {disfmarker} if a multi - band approach was helpful as {disfmarker} as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "that one might be another thing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um , were {disfmarker} were you gonna say something ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh . It looked {disfmarker} OK , never mind . Um , yeah . And so , this {disfmarker} this past week um , I 've been uh , looking a little bit into uh , TRAPS um , and doing {disfmarker} doing TRAPS on {disfmarker} on these e events too , just , um , seeing {disfmarker} seeing if that 's possible . Uh , and um , other than that , uh , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Oh no . So you live in a cardboard box in the street now", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "or , no ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , well , s s som something like that .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "In Albany , yeah . Yeah . And uh . Yep . That 's it .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Suni - i d ' you v did uh {disfmarker} did you find a place ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is that out of the way ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "not yet . Uh , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . So . And she would get back to me on Monday . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's only thing I have and Diane has a few more houses . She 's going to take some pictures and send me after I go back . So it 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . So you 're not down here permanently yet ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "No . I 'm going back to OGI today .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Ah ! Oh , OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "OK . And then , you 're coming back uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , i I mean , I {disfmarker} I p I plan to be here on thirty - first .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Thirty - first ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Thirty - first .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Well , I mean i i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I hope .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a while", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So , in that case , I 'm going to be here on thirty - first definitely .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "until you {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . I 've got a spare bedroom right now .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh . OK . Thanks . That sure is nice of you . So , it may be he needs more than me .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh r oh . Oh no , no . My {disfmarker} my cardboard box is actually a nice spacious two bedroom apartment .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So a two bedroom cardboard box . Th - that 's great .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Thanks Dave .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Do y wanna say anything about {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you actually been {disfmarker} Uh , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were {disfmarker} you were mentioning . Is that {disfmarker} that something worth talking about , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , it 's {disfmarker} Well , um , it {disfmarker} I don't think it directly relates . Um , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to um , look at um , how people respond to formant changes , I think . Um . So he {disfmarker} he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic um , spectrum . And he wanted to look at um , how the energy is moving {pause} over time in that spectrum and compare that to the {disfmarker} to the listener tests . And , um . So , I gave him a PLP spectrum . And {disfmarker} to um {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . So I took the um , PLP LPC coefficients and um , I found the roots . This was something that Stephane suggested . I found the roots of the um , LPC polynomial to , um , track the peaks in the , um , PLP LPC spectra .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} Is that the aligned s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's a r root LPC , uh , of some sort .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , no .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "instead of the log you took the root square , I mean cubic root or something . What di w I didn't get that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No , no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's taking the {disfmarker} finding the roots of the LPC polynomial .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Polynomial . Yeah . Is that the line spectral {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's like line spectral pairs .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's like line sp", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "to sort of ? But it {disfmarker} But uh , you know . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was {disfmarker} was taking the LPC polynomial and {disfmarker} and uh , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and uh , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny {vocalsound} values in {disfmarker} in real speech ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So you just {disfmarker} You typically just get a few roots ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You know , two or three ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well you get these complex pairs .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "something like that ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So , um , if {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Every root that 's {disfmarker} Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root {comment} is gonna be a c complex pair ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "um , of a complex value and its conjugate . Um . So for each {disfmarker} And if you look at that on the unit circle , um , one of these {disfmarker} one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just {disfmarker} So , um , f for the {disfmarker} I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "which give me s which gives me three or four peak positions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This is from synthetic speech , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So if it 's from synthetic speech then maybe it 'll be cleaner . I mean for real speech in real {disfmarker} then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are {disfmarker} don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "How did {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but mostly they are .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mostly they do .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and what {disfmarker} I mean in {disfmarker} in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "because it was just a question of quantization . Uh , we were just you know , storing {disfmarker} It was {disfmarker} We were doing , uh , stored speech , uh , quantization .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but uh , in your case um , you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} there 's some of that , yes .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Well they are much lower .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? I mean h how is the speech created ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "It was created from a synthesizer , and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I bet it {disfmarker} it might have {disfmarker} may have been", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} d d this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "In {disfmarker} in fact w we {disfmarker} we could get , um , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , um , w one thing that the , um , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , um , is that I {disfmarker} I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . Um , Stephane suggested looking at each complex pair as a {disfmarker} like a se second - order IIR filter .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to um , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . Except that you don't have the psycho - acoustic modeling in that .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , so the actual {disfmarker} So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . You 're getting the {disfmarker} Again , you 're getting sort of the , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You 're getting something that is {disfmarker} is uh , af strongly affected by the PLP model . And so it 's more psycho - acoustic . So it 's a little {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's sort of {disfmarker} sort of a different thing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . That 's sort of the point .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban uh , formant centers are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean , that 's {disfmarker} Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as {disfmarker} as what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , uh , band center and band width , and um , um {disfmarker} But . Yeah . O K . So , uh , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and . Yeah . Great ! Well , welcome .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess we should do digits quickly .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I almost forgot that .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Digits .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I almost forgot our daily digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You wanna go ahead ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" } ]

[ { "content": "Uh , is it the twenty - fourth ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "now we 're on .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh Chuck , is the mike type wireless {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "wireless headset ? OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "For you it is .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . We uh {disfmarker} we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too {disfmarker} not too hot , not too cold , they were {disfmarker} you know , they were {vocalsound} uh , far enough away that you got more background noise , uh , and uh {disfmarker} and so forth", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but they weren't so close that they got quite the {disfmarker} you know , the really good {disfmarker} No , th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "they {disfmarker} I mean they didn't {disfmarker} Wait a minute . I 'm saying that wrong . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . So it was no {disfmarker} didn't seem to be a good point to them . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "There 's uh , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel uh , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we {disfmarker} there seemed to be very strong opinions for uh , getting rid of lapels .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The mike number is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . One .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then the channel number 's usually one less than that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . So you should be zero , actually .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hello ? Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "For your uh , channel number .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep , yep .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . no , they don't {disfmarker} don't have a {disfmarker} have any Indian pronunciations .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So what we usually do is um , we typically will have our meetings", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then at the end of the meetings we 'll read the digits . Everybody goes around and reads the digits on the {disfmarker} the bottom of their forms .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Session R", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "R - nineteen ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "R - nineteen .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . We 're {disfmarker} This is session R - nineteen .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you say so . O K . Do we have anything like an agenda ? What 's going on ? Um . I guess um . So . One thing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer , right . Um , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe uh , and then just uh , I guess uh , progress reports individually , and then uh , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . Um .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I could say a few words about um , some of the uh , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Why don't you start with that ? That 's sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "We um {disfmarker} So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , uh , to use as sort of a compute farm . And um , uh , we ordered uh , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and um , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , uh , in addition , we 're running {disfmarker} So the plan for using these is , uh , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all uh , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to um , {vocalsound} run things using P - make and Customs . You don't actually have to write P - make scripts and things like that . The simplest thing {disfmarker} And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "How about an email that points to the FAQ ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "there 's a c", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "you know what I 'm saying ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "so that you can {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , there 's a command , uh , that you can use called \" run command \" . \" Run dash command \" , \" run hyphen command \" . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , uh , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and uh {disfmarker} and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can try this as a simple test with uh , the L S command . So you can say \" run dash command L S \" , and , um , it 'll actually export that {vocalsound} LS command to some machine in the institute , and um , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and um {disfmarker} And that 's a simple way to get started using {disfmarker} using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , {vocalsound} um , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that uh , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . Uh , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like \" run command \" , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . So . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . Each machine has an attribute which is the name of itself . So you can give that as an attribute and it 'll only run on that . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and uh , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're {disfmarker} Uh . The SRI recognizer has all this P - make customs stuff built into it .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "is the rough division of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Exactly . Yeah , you know , I {disfmarker} I sort of got started {comment} using the recognizer just recently and uh , uh I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , \" uh , are you running two {vocalsound} trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . \" So I had to back off a little bit . But , soon as we get some more machines then uh {disfmarker} then we 'll have more compute available . So , um , that 's just a quick update about what we 've got . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , I have {disfmarker} I have a question about the uh , parallelization ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , um , let 's say I have like , a thousand little {disfmarker} little jobs to do ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , how do I do it with \" run command \" ? I mean do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "You could write a script uh , which called run command on each sub - job", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . A thousand times ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "because um , you don't wanna saturate the network . Uh , so , um , you know , you should {disfmarker} you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , uh , just because then it would keep other people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , too much file transfer and stuff .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with {disfmarker} if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . Um . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , um , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use \" run command \" , uh , to only have ten of those going at a time . And uh , then , when one of those finished you 'd fire off another one . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I remember I {disfmarker} I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or {disfmarker} or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were {disfmarker} everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and {vocalsound} and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yep . Yeah , exactly . Yeah , you have to be a little bit careful .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "as I recall , but . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , but uh , you can also {disfmarker} If you have that level of parallelization um , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in {disfmarker} in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use um , P - make", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Just do P - make .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and you basically write a Make file that uh , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "s Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and when you run P - make , uh , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and {disfmarker} and then a number ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and that number represents how many uh , machines to use at once . And then it 'll make sure that it never goes above that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "I can get some documentation .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not systematically queued . I mean all the jobs are running . If you launch twenty jobs , they are all running . Alright .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It depends . If you {disfmarker} \" Run command \" , that I mentioned before , is {disfmarker} doesn't know about other things that you might be running .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and they wouldn't know about each other . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and it can control , uh , how many it runs simultaneously .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So \" run command \" doesn't use P - make , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It uses \" export \" underlyingly . But , if you {disfmarker} i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know {disfmarker} any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So why would one use that rather than P - make ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Well , if you have , um {disfmarker} Like , for example , uh if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , uh {disfmarker} an HTK training job that you know is gonna take uh , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , uh , the machine you typically use , you can say \" run command \" and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and {disfmarker} and run your job there .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , there are um {disfmarker} Right . So some of the machines at the institute , um , have this attribute called \" no evict \" . And if you specify that , in {disfmarker} in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and {disfmarker} and they were at lunch ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted {disfmarker} your job {comment} will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . Automatically . So {disfmarker} which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . So . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus {disfmarker} the attribute , you know , \" no evict \" , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , what {disfmarker} what about {disfmarker} I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you {disfmarker} if something required {disfmarker} if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how that works .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , it seems like Andreas did something for that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . We can ask him sometime .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev {disfmarker} dev console or something .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "You probably wouldn't ordinarily , though . Yeah . Right ? You probably wouldn't ordinarily .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean you sort of {disfmarker} you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , \" screw this \" ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so , um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah . I {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} I 'm not sure about that one .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But uh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , I need a little orientation about this environment and uh scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , I think maybe I 'll ask you after the meeting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and also uh , Stephane 's a {disfmarker} a really good resource for that if you can't find me .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yep . OK , sure", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Especially with regard to the Aurora stuff .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He {disfmarker} he knows that stuff better than I do .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . Well , why don't we uh , uh , Sunil since you 're {vocalsound} haven't {disfmarker} haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's {disfmarker} what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah . So , uh , shall I start from {disfmarker} Well I don't know how may I {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} OK . Uh , I think I 'll start from the post uh Aurora submission maybe .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah , after the submission the {disfmarker} what I 've been working on mainly was to take {disfmarker} take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in {disfmarker} in ours . So {disfmarker} So I tried uh , And u First I tried just LDA . And then I found that uh , I mean , if {disfmarker} if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Are y are you saying LDA ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "LDA . OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , just {disfmarker} just the LDA filters . I just plug in {disfmarker} I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . But the LDA filter that I used was different from what we submitted in the proposal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What I did was {vocalsound} I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , uh , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , uh , narrow {disfmarker} narrow band LDA filter that we submitted uh , I got new filters . So that seems to be giving {disfmarker} uh , improving over their uh , system . Slightly . But , not very significantly . And uh , that was uh , showing any improvement over {disfmarker} final {disfmarker} by plugging in an LDA . And uh , so then after {disfmarker} after that I {disfmarker} I added uh , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a {disfmarker} a mean and variance update time constant and {disfmarker} which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But um , I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value {disfmarker} I mean , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . That 's all I found So I have to . Uh , Yeah . And uh , uh , the other {disfmarker} other thing what I tried was , I just um , uh , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf uh th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the {disfmarker} I mean the w speech and nonspeech . And uh , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , can you back up a second , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I missed something , uh , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , uh , uh things got better again ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "or is it ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "No . No , things didn't get better with the same time constant that we used .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Did it not ? No , no . With a different time constant .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "With the different time constant I found that {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "because I {disfmarker} I found that I would have change the value of the update factor .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No you didn't , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But I didn't play it with play {disfmarker} play quite a bit to make it better than .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , it 's still not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I mean , the on - line normalization didn't give me any improvement .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And uh , so ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "oh yeah So I just stopped there with the uh , speech enhancement . The {disfmarker} the other thing what I tried was the {disfmarker} adding the uh , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the {disfmarker} the second {disfmarker} the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , uh , use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So people won't even have to worry about , uh , doing speech - nonspeech then .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's , that 's what the feeling is like . They 're going to give the endpoint information .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "everybody does that ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what {disfmarker} what are the best features that you should use .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean clearly they 're interact . So I don't know that I entirely agree with it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but it might be uh {disfmarker} In some ways it might be better t to {disfmarker} rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But , you know . It 's {disfmarker} it 's still someth reasonable .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , are people supposed to assume that there is uh {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "No . No . That i I {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I guess that is {disfmarker} that is where the consensus is . Like y you will {disfmarker} you will {disfmarker} You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because you don't have the mistakes in it . Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} The baseline itself {disfmarker} I mean , it improves by twenty - two percent . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . w", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean you don't need any further speech enhancement with fifty . So , uh ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So the baseline itself improves by fifty percent .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , by fifty percent .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So it 's g it 's gonna be harder to {vocalsound} beat that actually .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "so that is when uh , the {disfmarker} the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And I think they have {disfmarker} they have actually changed their qualification c criteria now . And uh , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK . No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good {disfmarker} good update .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Ye Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I came back and I started working on uh , some other speech enhancement algorithm . I mean , so {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . These are the main uh , approaches where people have tried ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "so just to {disfmarker} just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I {disfmarker} I 've been working on this uh , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . I have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to test whether it works first or not", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . So , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So {disfmarker} so now you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so we we 'll have a {vocalsound} single place where the stuff is .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cool . Um , so maybe uh , just briefly , you could remind us about the related experiments . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , where you were also combining something {disfmarker} both of you I guess were both combining something from the uh , French Telecom system with {vocalsound} the u uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . It was system one . So", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "we {disfmarker} The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are uh , with noise removed .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I let me {disfmarker} let me just stop you there . So then , one distinction is that uh , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no there is a slight different . Uh I mean , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . But that 's what I mean .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But u u Sorry ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah , I 'm not being {disfmarker} I 'm not being clear .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And so one difference is that , I guess you were taking spectra .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads uh , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like {disfmarker} There may be a slight difference in the way {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "right ? or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . I mean , if we are using our own code for th I mean that {disfmarker} that could be the only difference .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , there is no other difference .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But you got some sort of different result . So I 'm trying to understand it . But uh , I th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , well I think we should uh , have a table with all the result because I don't know I uh , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied uh , proposal - one system after this without {disfmarker} well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the {disfmarker} the LDA filters ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the filter {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Only LDA . Yeah . Af - I {disfmarker} after that I added on - line normalization , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So we just tried directly to {disfmarker} to just , keep the system as it was and , um , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves uh , signif significantly . Um , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because if we keep the value that was submitted uh , it doesn't help at all . You can remove on - line normalization , or put it , it doesn't change anything . Uh , uh , as long as you have the spectral subtraction . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but , uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I assume .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and see where i where the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} where they were different and what we can learn from it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "without any change . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's the new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with changes ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "with", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "because we change it the system to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I mean the {disfmarker} the new LDA filters .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "w Uh , it doesn't seem to hurt on TI - digits , finally .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Maybe because of other changes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , well there are some {vocalsound} minor changes , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , um , always better than {disfmarker} it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . And it 's still slightly worse for well - matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Um , but this is not significant . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , uh , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . Even with very minor {disfmarker} uh , even if it 's only slightly worse for well - matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And significantly better for HM . Uh , but , well . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , uh , uh , mainly because of uh , when you p you plug the um , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and MM ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "so , um , I guess what will happen {disfmarker} I don't know what will happen . But , the different contribution , I think , for the different test set will be more even .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Because the {disfmarker} your improvement on HM and MM will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . But the {pause} the well - matched may still {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the MM {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "MM and HM are going to be v hugely affected by it . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , so um , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But they d the {disfmarker} everything I mean is like , but there that 's how they reduce {disfmarker} why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some {disfmarker} something on .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But are they changing the weighting ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . So there 's nothing on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't understand that .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess I {disfmarker} I haven't been part of the discussion , so , um , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Usual .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "in this case . Unusual .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because , um , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ {disfmarker} particular person 's car is like , or", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It seems like something like the middle one is {disfmarker} is more natural .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So I don't know why the {pause} well - matched is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but actually the well {disfmarker} well the well - matched um , uh , I mean the {disfmarker} the well - matched condition is not like , uh , the one in TI - digits where uh , you have all the training , uh , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . It 's like , this is not calibrated by SNR or something . The well - matched has also some {disfmarker} some mismatch in that which is other than the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The well wa matched has mismatch ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "has {disfmarker} has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Perfect to match .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "because it 's artificially added noise .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But this is natural recording .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So remind me of what well - matched meant ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the well - matched is like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 've told me many times .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , so it means that if the database is large enough , it 's matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because it", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "in each set you have a range of conditions {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So , I mean , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much {disfmarker} You know , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's sort of saying if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not guaranteed though .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , it 's not guaranteed .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah because the m the main {disfmarker} major reason for the m", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Again , if you have enough {disfmarker} if you have enough {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "No yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you {disfmarker} much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , um , you {disfmarker} you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and {disfmarker} and record noise conditions , or something , and then {disfmarker} I don't think that 's very realistic , I mean I th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I you know , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and {disfmarker} and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , So What else is going on ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm . You Yeah . We are playing {disfmarker} we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . Um , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the um , mel energies which I already tested but without the um frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is spectral subtraction typically done on the {disfmarker} after the mel , uh , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Does it matter , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I d I don't know . Well , it 's both {disfmarker} both uh , cases can i", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . So - some of the proposal , uh , we 're doing this on the bin {disfmarker} on the FFT bins ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "others on the um , mel energies . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's {disfmarker} which one might be better or {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't know . Yeah , but", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But for speech recognition , it may not . I mean it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . So you 're going to do a linear weighting anyway after that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , it may not be really a big different .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It I Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , uh , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean they just do the same thing again once more .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So , there 's something that is good about doing it {disfmarker} I mean , to cleaning it up once more .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it might be .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's what", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean maybe one or {disfmarker} one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That 's wh Yeah . So ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "you know ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean just to see all {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "How is it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does {disfmarker} I mean , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're {disfmarker} that you 're adding together the two signals , how is {disfmarker} how is that differ from signal subspace ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The signal subspace ? The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The signal subspace approach has actually an in - built Wiener filtering in it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter . Is the signal is {disfmarker} is a signal substrate .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , oh , OK so the difference is the KL .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the different {disfmarker} the c the {disfmarker} the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . It 's {disfmarker} it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions , and in colored noise .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wiener filtering . It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a cascade of two s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wiener filter . Yeah , in general , you don't {disfmarker} that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . Actually . Um , that was something that uh , Herve and I were talking about with um , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from uh , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Yeah . So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some {disfmarker} something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then do a something in the second stage which could take it further .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What was your point about {disfmarker} about colored noise there ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , the colored noise uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "the colored noise {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the v the signal subspace approach has {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker} it actually depends on inverting the matrices . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} ac the covariance matrix of the noise . So if {disfmarker} if it is not positive definite ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean it has a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So you should do spectral subtraction and then add noise .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then make the noise white ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I was only half kidding . I mean if you {disfmarker} sort of {vocalsound} you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then you {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then add a little bit l noise {disfmarker} noise addition {disfmarker} I mean , that sort of what J {disfmarker} JRASTA does , in a way .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little {disfmarker} adding a little noise ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Huh ? Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "in order to get rid of the effects of noise .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . So there is this . And maybe we {disfmarker} well we find some people so that {vocalsound} uh , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's um , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , {vocalsound} uh f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . So . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a nonlinear eh uh , transformation in the cepstral domain .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And uh , there is a way to approximate this using uh , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for {vocalsound} uh , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Who is doing this ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and another in {pause} uh , Lucent that I met at ICASSP .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Who 's the guy in Grenada ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "uh ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , Jose Carlos Segura .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I don't know him .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "This VTS has been proposed by CMU ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is it the CMU ? Yeah , yeah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Originally the idea was from CMU .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "From C .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Well , it 's again a different thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that could be tried . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , uh , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of uh , noise removal , uh , with {disfmarker} with these other things we have ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh , looks like a worthy thing to {disfmarker} to do here .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah . But , yeah . But for sure there 's required to {disfmarker} that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and , for sure the on - line normalization may be the LDA filter . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well one of the {disfmarker} seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too {disfmarker} or {pause} I guess not next week ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "week and a half , uh , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . Um . You know . So , I mean one way would {disfmarker} he Here are some alternate visions . I mean one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same {disfmarker} different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to {disfmarker} to pick two pol two plausible things , and {disfmarker} and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and then , you know , uh , but , w um , uh , he 'll have some ideas on that too .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The other thing is to , uh {disfmarker} Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we {disfmarker} we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some {disfmarker} I mean , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's {disfmarker} Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we {disfmarker} if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization {pause} to make it work @ @ .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So they 're making {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive {disfmarker} artificially added noise or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sort of a {disfmarker} sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I m I guess Guenter Hirsch is in charge of that . Guenter Hirsch and TI .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Maybe Roger {disfmarker} r Roger , maybe in charge of .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh , uh , generating HTK scripts to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I don't know . There are {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} there is no {disfmarker} I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mis - Mississippi State maybe ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah . I 'm not sure about that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah , so that 'll be a little {disfmarker} little task in itself .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , well we 've {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . So we we did the Broadcast News evaluation", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and some of the focus conditions were noisy and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It had additive n", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But we {disfmarker} but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi uh , multi - stream and {disfmarker} and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But it , you know , we di stuff we did helped . I mean it , did something .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Um , now we have this um , meeting data . You know , like the stuff we 're {comment} recording right now ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and uh , that we have uh , for the {disfmarker} uh , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just {disfmarker} noisy and reverberant actually . It 's the far field mike . And uh , we have uh , the digits that we do at the end of these things . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with {disfmarker} with uh , connected digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , but uh , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard {disfmarker} uh , Switchboard recognizer ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh , no training , {vocalsound} from this , just {disfmarker} just plain using the Switchboard .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . You just take the Switchboard trained {disfmarker} ? Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . Now there are some adaptation though ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah . That 's cool .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "that {disfmarker} that uh , Andreas has been playing with ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but we 're hop uh , actually uh , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , uh , some of the large vocabulary data . Um , I mean , I guess no one had done {disfmarker} yet done test one on the distant mike using uh , the SRI recognizer and , uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} not that I know of .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , cuz everybody 's scared .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the {disfmarker} the CPU or something {vocalsound} trying to {disfmarker} trying to do it ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That 's right", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but uh , yeah . But , you 're right that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's a real good point , that uh , we {disfmarker} we don't know yeah , uh , I mean , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the uh {disfmarker} in the evaluation .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , But um , Good . OK . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't have good result , with the {disfmarker} inc including the new parameters ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't have good result . Are {pause} similar or a little bit worse .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "With what {disfmarker} what other new p new parameter ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 're talking about your voicing ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So maybe {disfmarker} You probably need to back up a bit", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "seeing as how Sunil ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the coe the cepstrum coefficient ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for {disfmarker} of the spec si uh , spectrum of the signal and {disfmarker} and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I 'm so sorry . I didn't get it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Nuh . Well . Anyway . The {disfmarker} First you have the sp the spectrum of the signal ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mmm . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I do the difference {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I found a difference at the variance of this different", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because , suppose we {disfmarker} we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n uh , noise .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if the variance is small , maybe you have uh , speech .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "To {disfmarker} to To {disfmarker} The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And we try to use this new feature {disfmarker} feature . And I did experiment {disfmarker} I need to change {disfmarker} to obtain this new feature I need to change the size {disfmarker} the window size {disfmarker} size . of the a of the {disfmarker} analysis window size , to have more information .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Make it longer .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , sixty - two point five milliseconds I think .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And I do {disfmarker} I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the {disfmarker} with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence {disfmarker} silence", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Unvoiced . Well .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and to {disfmarker} to concat this new feature . But the result are n with the neural network I have more or less the same result .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "As using just the cepstrum ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Result .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh , is it with TI - digits , or with {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But Doesn't help .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I really wonder though .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean we 've had these discussions before , and {disfmarker} and one of the things that struck me was that {disfmarker} uh , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we um {disfmarker} whenever you condense things , uh , in an irreversible way , um , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for uh particular , uh , phonetic units . Um , but , you 'll do throw something away . And so the question is , uh , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . And um . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking \" oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice {disfmarker} voiced property whatever . \" So that {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Maybe that helps to drive the {disfmarker} the thought process of coming up with the features . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , \" well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? \" So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT uh , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "To know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or {disfmarker} or whatever", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wi - with what targets ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Voiced , unvoiced is like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , no .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . Or anything .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No the {disfmarker} just the same {disfmarker} same way we 're using {disfmarker} I mean , the same way that we 're using the filter bank .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Phones .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Exact way {disfmarker} the same way we 're using the filter bank .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , the filter bank is good for all the reasons that we say it 's good . But it 's different . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or uh , um , adding probabilities , I mean , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the {disfmarker} essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is so much variability in the power spectrum .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , uh , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and {disfmarker} and uh , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to uh , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . So I mean the {disfmarker} i i It 's true there 's lots of variability ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , um , uh , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about uh , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily {disfmarker} not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , d", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , so anyway , it 's just a thought , that {disfmarker} that if we {disfmarker} if we had that {disfmarker} maybe it 's just a baseline uh , which would show us \" well , what are we really getting out of the filters \" , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the {disfmarker} But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . But , maybe the neural net and the H M Ms could figure it out quicker than you .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "It 's just a thought .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker} I will try to do that .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one um p one thing is like what {disfmarker} before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the {disfmarker} th what we did was like , I {disfmarker} I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the HMM on that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That is just a binary feature and that seems to be {vocalsound} improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . That 's it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wait {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You did some experiment .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Well , in {disfmarker} in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and it was very short . But Italian was like very {disfmarker} it was a huge improvement on Italian .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean . To {disfmarker} maybe to distinguish between voice sound and unvoiced sounds ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "There was a paper in ICASSP {disfmarker} this ICASSP {disfmarker} over the uh extracting some higher - order uh , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can {disfmarker} I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . It {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Talking cumulants or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Huh ? Uh , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cumulants or something .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't remember .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} No .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It wa it was taking the , um {disfmarker} It was about finding the higher - order moments of {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "cumulants , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "maybe higher - order cumulants", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah . It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Or m e", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , he was showing up uh some {disfmarker} something on noisy speech ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "some improvement on the noisy speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Some small vocabulary tasks .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So it was on PLP derived cepstral coefficients .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but again {disfmarker} You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So n neural network uh , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "trying to f to Moments , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . So . I mean , it doesn't do it very specifically ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and pretty {disfmarker} you know . But .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , anything on your end you want to talk about ? Uh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , nothing I wanna really talk about . I can {disfmarker} I can just uh , um , share a little bit {disfmarker} Sunil hasn't {disfmarker} hasn't heard about uh , what I 've been doing .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , so , um , I told you I was {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , um , trying to propose um , uh , your next your {disfmarker} your following years of {disfmarker} of your PHD work , trying {disfmarker} trying to find a project to {disfmarker} to define and {disfmarker} and to work on . So , I 've been , uh , looking into , um , doing something about r uh , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , um , the idea is you have all these {disfmarker} these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , uh , frication , that kinda stuff , um , building robust um , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . Um , and , um , these {disfmarker} these primary detectors , um , will be , uh , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , um , doing things , um , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , uh , graphical models to {disfmarker} to detect these {disfmarker} these , uh , acoustic events . And , um , so I {disfmarker} I been {disfmarker} I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , um , exactly what {disfmarker} what kind of acoustic events I need , what {disfmarker} um , what acoustic events will provide a {disfmarker} a good enough coverage to {disfmarker} in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , um , once I decide a set of acoustic events , um , h how do I {disfmarker} how do I get labels ? Training data for {disfmarker} for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the {disfmarker} the models themselves , the {disfmarker} the primary detectors . Um , so , um , I kinda see {disfmarker} like , after {disfmarker} after building the primary detectors I see um , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into {disfmarker} into a um , Gaussian mixtures HMM back - end , um , and doing recognition . Um . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's just generally what I 've been looking at .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "By {disfmarker} by the way , uh , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you know , um , if you {disfmarker} if a multi - band approach was helpful as {disfmarker} as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "that one might be another thing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um , were {disfmarker} were you gonna say something ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh . It looked {disfmarker} OK , never mind . Um , yeah . And so , this {disfmarker} this past week um , I 've been uh , looking a little bit into uh , TRAPS um , and doing {disfmarker} doing TRAPS on {disfmarker} on these e events too , just , um , seeing {disfmarker} seeing if that 's possible . Uh , and um , other than that , uh , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Oh no . So you live in a cardboard box in the street now", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "or , no ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , well , s s som something like that .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "In Albany , yeah . Yeah . And uh . Yep . That 's it .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Suni - i d ' you v did uh {disfmarker} did you find a place ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is that out of the way ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "not yet . Uh , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . So . And she would get back to me on Monday . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's only thing I have and Diane has a few more houses . She 's going to take some pictures and send me after I go back . So it 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . So you 're not down here permanently yet ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "No . I 'm going back to OGI today .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Ah ! Oh , OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "OK . And then , you 're coming back uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , i I mean , I {disfmarker} I p I plan to be here on thirty - first .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Thirty - first ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Thirty - first .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Well , I mean i i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I hope .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a while", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So , in that case , I 'm going to be here on thirty - first definitely .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "until you {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . I 've got a spare bedroom right now .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh . OK . Thanks . That sure is nice of you . So , it may be he needs more than me .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh r oh . Oh no , no . My {disfmarker} my cardboard box is actually a nice spacious two bedroom apartment .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So a two bedroom cardboard box . Th - that 's great .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Thanks Dave .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Do y wanna say anything about {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you actually been {disfmarker} Uh , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were {disfmarker} you were mentioning . Is that {disfmarker} that something worth talking about , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , it 's {disfmarker} Well , um , it {disfmarker} I don't think it directly relates . Um , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to um , look at um , how people respond to formant changes , I think . Um . So he {disfmarker} he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic um , spectrum . And he wanted to look at um , how the energy is moving {pause} over time in that spectrum and compare that to the {disfmarker} to the listener tests . And , um . So , I gave him a PLP spectrum . And {disfmarker} to um {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . So I took the um , PLP LPC coefficients and um , I found the roots . This was something that Stephane suggested . I found the roots of the um , LPC polynomial to , um , track the peaks in the , um , PLP LPC spectra .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} Is that the aligned s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's a r root LPC , uh , of some sort .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , no .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "instead of the log you took the root square , I mean cubic root or something . What di w I didn't get that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No , no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's taking the {disfmarker} finding the roots of the LPC polynomial .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Polynomial . Yeah . Is that the line spectral {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's like line spectral pairs .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's like line sp", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "to sort of ? But it {disfmarker} But uh , you know . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was {disfmarker} was taking the LPC polynomial and {disfmarker} and uh , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and uh , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny {vocalsound} values in {disfmarker} in real speech ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So you just {disfmarker} You typically just get a few roots ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You know , two or three ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well you get these complex pairs .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "something like that ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So , um , if {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Every root that 's {disfmarker} Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root {comment} is gonna be a c complex pair ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "um , of a complex value and its conjugate . Um . So for each {disfmarker} And if you look at that on the unit circle , um , one of these {disfmarker} one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just {disfmarker} So , um , f for the {disfmarker} I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "which give me s which gives me three or four peak positions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This is from synthetic speech , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So if it 's from synthetic speech then maybe it 'll be cleaner . I mean for real speech in real {disfmarker} then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are {disfmarker} don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "How did {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but mostly they are .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mostly they do .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and what {disfmarker} I mean in {disfmarker} in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "because it was just a question of quantization . Uh , we were just you know , storing {disfmarker} It was {disfmarker} We were doing , uh , stored speech , uh , quantization .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but uh , in your case um , you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} there 's some of that , yes .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Well they are much lower .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? I mean h how is the speech created ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "It was created from a synthesizer , and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I bet it {disfmarker} it might have {disfmarker} may have been", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} d d this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "In {disfmarker} in fact w we {disfmarker} we could get , um , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , um , w one thing that the , um , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , um , is that I {disfmarker} I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . Um , Stephane suggested looking at each complex pair as a {disfmarker} like a se second - order IIR filter .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to um , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . Except that you don't have the psycho - acoustic modeling in that .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , so the actual {disfmarker} So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . You 're getting the {disfmarker} Again , you 're getting sort of the , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You 're getting something that is {disfmarker} is uh , af strongly affected by the PLP model . And so it 's more psycho - acoustic . So it 's a little {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's sort of {disfmarker} sort of a different thing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . That 's sort of the point .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban uh , formant centers are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean , that 's {disfmarker} Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as {disfmarker} as what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , uh , band center and band width , and um , um {disfmarker} But . Yeah . O K . So , uh , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and . Yeah . Great ! Well , welcome .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess we should do digits quickly .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I almost forgot that .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Digits .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I almost forgot our daily digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You wanna go ahead ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" } ]

[ { "content": "Uh , is it the twenty - fourth ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "now we 're on .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh Chuck , is the mike type wireless {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "wireless headset ? OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "For you it is .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . We uh {disfmarker} we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too {disfmarker} not too hot , not too cold , they were {disfmarker} you know , they were {vocalsound} uh , far enough away that you got more background noise , uh , and uh {disfmarker} and so forth", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but they weren't so close that they got quite the {disfmarker} you know , the really good {disfmarker} No , th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "they {disfmarker} I mean they didn't {disfmarker} Wait a minute . I 'm saying that wrong . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . So it was no {disfmarker} didn't seem to be a good point to them . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "There 's uh , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel uh , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we {disfmarker} there seemed to be very strong opinions for uh , getting rid of lapels .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The mike number is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . One .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then the channel number 's usually one less than that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . So you should be zero , actually .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hello ? Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "For your uh , channel number .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep , yep .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . no , they don't {disfmarker} don't have a {disfmarker} have any Indian pronunciations .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So what we usually do is um , we typically will have our meetings", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then at the end of the meetings we 'll read the digits . Everybody goes around and reads the digits on the {disfmarker} the bottom of their forms .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Session R", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "R - nineteen ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "R - nineteen .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . We 're {disfmarker} This is session R - nineteen .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you say so . O K . Do we have anything like an agenda ? What 's going on ? Um . I guess um . So . One thing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer , right . Um , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe uh , and then just uh , I guess uh , progress reports individually , and then uh , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . Um .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I could say a few words about um , some of the uh , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Why don't you start with that ? That 's sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "We um {disfmarker} So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , uh , to use as sort of a compute farm . And um , uh , we ordered uh , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and um , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , uh , in addition , we 're running {disfmarker} So the plan for using these is , uh , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all uh , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to um , {vocalsound} run things using P - make and Customs . You don't actually have to write P - make scripts and things like that . The simplest thing {disfmarker} And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "How about an email that points to the FAQ ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "there 's a c", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "you know what I 'm saying ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "so that you can {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , there 's a command , uh , that you can use called \" run command \" . \" Run dash command \" , \" run hyphen command \" . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , uh , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and uh {disfmarker} and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can try this as a simple test with uh , the L S command . So you can say \" run dash command L S \" , and , um , it 'll actually export that {vocalsound} LS command to some machine in the institute , and um , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and um {disfmarker} And that 's a simple way to get started using {disfmarker} using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , {vocalsound} um , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that uh , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . Uh , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like \" run command \" , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . So . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . Each machine has an attribute which is the name of itself . So you can give that as an attribute and it 'll only run on that . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and uh , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're {disfmarker} Uh . The SRI recognizer has all this P - make customs stuff built into it .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "is the rough division of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Exactly . Yeah , you know , I {disfmarker} I sort of got started {comment} using the recognizer just recently and uh , uh I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , \" uh , are you running two {vocalsound} trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . \" So I had to back off a little bit . But , soon as we get some more machines then uh {disfmarker} then we 'll have more compute available . So , um , that 's just a quick update about what we 've got . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , I have {disfmarker} I have a question about the uh , parallelization ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , um , let 's say I have like , a thousand little {disfmarker} little jobs to do ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , how do I do it with \" run command \" ? I mean do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "You could write a script uh , which called run command on each sub - job", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . A thousand times ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "because um , you don't wanna saturate the network . Uh , so , um , you know , you should {disfmarker} you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , uh , just because then it would keep other people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , too much file transfer and stuff .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with {disfmarker} if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . Um . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , um , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use \" run command \" , uh , to only have ten of those going at a time . And uh , then , when one of those finished you 'd fire off another one . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I remember I {disfmarker} I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or {disfmarker} or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were {disfmarker} everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and {vocalsound} and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yep . Yeah , exactly . Yeah , you have to be a little bit careful .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "as I recall , but . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , but uh , you can also {disfmarker} If you have that level of parallelization um , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in {disfmarker} in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use um , P - make", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Just do P - make .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and you basically write a Make file that uh , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "s Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and when you run P - make , uh , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and {disfmarker} and then a number ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and that number represents how many uh , machines to use at once . And then it 'll make sure that it never goes above that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "I can get some documentation .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not systematically queued . I mean all the jobs are running . If you launch twenty jobs , they are all running . Alright .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It depends . If you {disfmarker} \" Run command \" , that I mentioned before , is {disfmarker} doesn't know about other things that you might be running .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and they wouldn't know about each other . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and it can control , uh , how many it runs simultaneously .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So \" run command \" doesn't use P - make , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It uses \" export \" underlyingly . But , if you {disfmarker} i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know {disfmarker} any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So why would one use that rather than P - make ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Well , if you have , um {disfmarker} Like , for example , uh if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , uh {disfmarker} an HTK training job that you know is gonna take uh , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , uh , the machine you typically use , you can say \" run command \" and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and {disfmarker} and run your job there .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , there are um {disfmarker} Right . So some of the machines at the institute , um , have this attribute called \" no evict \" . And if you specify that , in {disfmarker} in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and {disfmarker} and they were at lunch ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted {disfmarker} your job {comment} will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . Automatically . So {disfmarker} which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . So . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus {disfmarker} the attribute , you know , \" no evict \" , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , what {disfmarker} what about {disfmarker} I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you {disfmarker} if something required {disfmarker} if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how that works .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , it seems like Andreas did something for that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . We can ask him sometime .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev {disfmarker} dev console or something .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "You probably wouldn't ordinarily , though . Yeah . Right ? You probably wouldn't ordinarily .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean you sort of {disfmarker} you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , \" screw this \" ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so , um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah . I {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} I 'm not sure about that one .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But uh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , I need a little orientation about this environment and uh scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , I think maybe I 'll ask you after the meeting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and also uh , Stephane 's a {disfmarker} a really good resource for that if you can't find me .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yep . OK , sure", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Especially with regard to the Aurora stuff .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He {disfmarker} he knows that stuff better than I do .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . Well , why don't we uh , uh , Sunil since you 're {vocalsound} haven't {disfmarker} haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's {disfmarker} what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah . So , uh , shall I start from {disfmarker} Well I don't know how may I {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} OK . Uh , I think I 'll start from the post uh Aurora submission maybe .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah , after the submission the {disfmarker} what I 've been working on mainly was to take {disfmarker} take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in {disfmarker} in ours . So {disfmarker} So I tried uh , And u First I tried just LDA . And then I found that uh , I mean , if {disfmarker} if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Are y are you saying LDA ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "LDA . OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , just {disfmarker} just the LDA filters . I just plug in {disfmarker} I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . But the LDA filter that I used was different from what we submitted in the proposal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What I did was {vocalsound} I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , uh , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , uh , narrow {disfmarker} narrow band LDA filter that we submitted uh , I got new filters . So that seems to be giving {disfmarker} uh , improving over their uh , system . Slightly . But , not very significantly . And uh , that was uh , showing any improvement over {disfmarker} final {disfmarker} by plugging in an LDA . And uh , so then after {disfmarker} after that I {disfmarker} I added uh , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a {disfmarker} a mean and variance update time constant and {disfmarker} which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But um , I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value {disfmarker} I mean , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . That 's all I found So I have to . Uh , Yeah . And uh , uh , the other {disfmarker} other thing what I tried was , I just um , uh , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf uh th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the {disfmarker} I mean the w speech and nonspeech . And uh , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , can you back up a second , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I missed something , uh , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , uh , uh things got better again ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "or is it ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "No . No , things didn't get better with the same time constant that we used .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Did it not ? No , no . With a different time constant .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "With the different time constant I found that {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "because I {disfmarker} I found that I would have change the value of the update factor .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No you didn't , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But I didn't play it with play {disfmarker} play quite a bit to make it better than .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , it 's still not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I mean , the on - line normalization didn't give me any improvement .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And uh , so ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "oh yeah So I just stopped there with the uh , speech enhancement . The {disfmarker} the other thing what I tried was the {disfmarker} adding the uh , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the {disfmarker} the second {disfmarker} the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , uh , use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So people won't even have to worry about , uh , doing speech - nonspeech then .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's , that 's what the feeling is like . They 're going to give the endpoint information .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "everybody does that ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what {disfmarker} what are the best features that you should use .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean clearly they 're interact . So I don't know that I entirely agree with it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but it might be uh {disfmarker} In some ways it might be better t to {disfmarker} rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But , you know . It 's {disfmarker} it 's still someth reasonable .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , are people supposed to assume that there is uh {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "No . No . That i I {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I guess that is {disfmarker} that is where the consensus is . Like y you will {disfmarker} you will {disfmarker} You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because you don't have the mistakes in it . Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} The baseline itself {disfmarker} I mean , it improves by twenty - two percent . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . w", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean you don't need any further speech enhancement with fifty . So , uh ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So the baseline itself improves by fifty percent .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , by fifty percent .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So it 's g it 's gonna be harder to {vocalsound} beat that actually .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "so that is when uh , the {disfmarker} the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And I think they have {disfmarker} they have actually changed their qualification c criteria now . And uh , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK . No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good {disfmarker} good update .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Ye Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I came back and I started working on uh , some other speech enhancement algorithm . I mean , so {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . These are the main uh , approaches where people have tried ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "so just to {disfmarker} just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I {disfmarker} I 've been working on this uh , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . I have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to test whether it works first or not", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . So , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So {disfmarker} so now you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so we we 'll have a {vocalsound} single place where the stuff is .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cool . Um , so maybe uh , just briefly , you could remind us about the related experiments . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , where you were also combining something {disfmarker} both of you I guess were both combining something from the uh , French Telecom system with {vocalsound} the u uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . It was system one . So", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "we {disfmarker} The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are uh , with noise removed .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I let me {disfmarker} let me just stop you there . So then , one distinction is that uh , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no there is a slight different . Uh I mean , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . But that 's what I mean .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But u u Sorry ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah , I 'm not being {disfmarker} I 'm not being clear .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And so one difference is that , I guess you were taking spectra .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads uh , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like {disfmarker} There may be a slight difference in the way {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "right ? or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . I mean , if we are using our own code for th I mean that {disfmarker} that could be the only difference .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , there is no other difference .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But you got some sort of different result . So I 'm trying to understand it . But uh , I th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , well I think we should uh , have a table with all the result because I don't know I uh , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied uh , proposal - one system after this without {disfmarker} well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the {disfmarker} the LDA filters ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the filter {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Only LDA . Yeah . Af - I {disfmarker} after that I added on - line normalization , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So we just tried directly to {disfmarker} to just , keep the system as it was and , um , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves uh , signif significantly . Um , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because if we keep the value that was submitted uh , it doesn't help at all . You can remove on - line normalization , or put it , it doesn't change anything . Uh , uh , as long as you have the spectral subtraction . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but , uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I assume .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and see where i where the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} where they were different and what we can learn from it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "without any change . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's the new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with changes ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "with", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "because we change it the system to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I mean the {disfmarker} the new LDA filters .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "w Uh , it doesn't seem to hurt on TI - digits , finally .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Maybe because of other changes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , well there are some {vocalsound} minor changes , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , um , always better than {disfmarker} it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . And it 's still slightly worse for well - matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Um , but this is not significant . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , uh , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . Even with very minor {disfmarker} uh , even if it 's only slightly worse for well - matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And significantly better for HM . Uh , but , well . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , uh , uh , mainly because of uh , when you p you plug the um , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and MM ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "so , um , I guess what will happen {disfmarker} I don't know what will happen . But , the different contribution , I think , for the different test set will be more even .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Because the {disfmarker} your improvement on HM and MM will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . But the {pause} the well - matched may still {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the MM {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "MM and HM are going to be v hugely affected by it . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , so um , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But they d the {disfmarker} everything I mean is like , but there that 's how they reduce {disfmarker} why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some {disfmarker} something on .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But are they changing the weighting ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . So there 's nothing on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't understand that .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess I {disfmarker} I haven't been part of the discussion , so , um , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Usual .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "in this case . Unusual .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because , um , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ {disfmarker} particular person 's car is like , or", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It seems like something like the middle one is {disfmarker} is more natural .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So I don't know why the {pause} well - matched is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but actually the well {disfmarker} well the well - matched um , uh , I mean the {disfmarker} the well - matched condition is not like , uh , the one in TI - digits where uh , you have all the training , uh , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . It 's like , this is not calibrated by SNR or something . The well - matched has also some {disfmarker} some mismatch in that which is other than the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The well wa matched has mismatch ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "has {disfmarker} has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Perfect to match .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "because it 's artificially added noise .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But this is natural recording .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So remind me of what well - matched meant ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the well - matched is like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 've told me many times .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , so it means that if the database is large enough , it 's matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because it", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "in each set you have a range of conditions {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So , I mean , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much {disfmarker} You know , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's sort of saying if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not guaranteed though .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , it 's not guaranteed .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah because the m the main {disfmarker} major reason for the m", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Again , if you have enough {disfmarker} if you have enough {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "No yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you {disfmarker} much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , um , you {disfmarker} you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and {disfmarker} and record noise conditions , or something , and then {disfmarker} I don't think that 's very realistic , I mean I th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I you know , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and {disfmarker} and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , So What else is going on ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm . You Yeah . We are playing {disfmarker} we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . Um , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the um , mel energies which I already tested but without the um frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is spectral subtraction typically done on the {disfmarker} after the mel , uh , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Does it matter , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I d I don't know . Well , it 's both {disfmarker} both uh , cases can i", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . So - some of the proposal , uh , we 're doing this on the bin {disfmarker} on the FFT bins ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "others on the um , mel energies . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's {disfmarker} which one might be better or {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't know . Yeah , but", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But for speech recognition , it may not . I mean it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . So you 're going to do a linear weighting anyway after that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , it may not be really a big different .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It I Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , uh , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean they just do the same thing again once more .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So , there 's something that is good about doing it {disfmarker} I mean , to cleaning it up once more .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it might be .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's what", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean maybe one or {disfmarker} one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That 's wh Yeah . So ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "you know ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean just to see all {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "How is it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does {disfmarker} I mean , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're {disfmarker} that you 're adding together the two signals , how is {disfmarker} how is that differ from signal subspace ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The signal subspace ? The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The signal subspace approach has actually an in - built Wiener filtering in it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter . Is the signal is {disfmarker} is a signal substrate .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , oh , OK so the difference is the KL .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the different {disfmarker} the c the {disfmarker} the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . It 's {disfmarker} it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions , and in colored noise .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wiener filtering . It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a cascade of two s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wiener filter . Yeah , in general , you don't {disfmarker} that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . Actually . Um , that was something that uh , Herve and I were talking about with um , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from uh , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Yeah . So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some {disfmarker} something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then do a something in the second stage which could take it further .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What was your point about {disfmarker} about colored noise there ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , the colored noise uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "the colored noise {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the v the signal subspace approach has {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker} it actually depends on inverting the matrices . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} ac the covariance matrix of the noise . So if {disfmarker} if it is not positive definite ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean it has a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So you should do spectral subtraction and then add noise .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then make the noise white ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I was only half kidding . I mean if you {disfmarker} sort of {vocalsound} you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then you {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then add a little bit l noise {disfmarker} noise addition {disfmarker} I mean , that sort of what J {disfmarker} JRASTA does , in a way .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little {disfmarker} adding a little noise ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Huh ? Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "in order to get rid of the effects of noise .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . So there is this . And maybe we {disfmarker} well we find some people so that {vocalsound} uh , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's um , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , {vocalsound} uh f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . So . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a nonlinear eh uh , transformation in the cepstral domain .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And uh , there is a way to approximate this using uh , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for {vocalsound} uh , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Who is doing this ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and another in {pause} uh , Lucent that I met at ICASSP .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Who 's the guy in Grenada ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "uh ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , Jose Carlos Segura .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I don't know him .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "This VTS has been proposed by CMU ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is it the CMU ? Yeah , yeah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Originally the idea was from CMU .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "From C .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Well , it 's again a different thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that could be tried . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , uh , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of uh , noise removal , uh , with {disfmarker} with these other things we have ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh , looks like a worthy thing to {disfmarker} to do here .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah . But , yeah . But for sure there 's required to {disfmarker} that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and , for sure the on - line normalization may be the LDA filter . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well one of the {disfmarker} seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too {disfmarker} or {pause} I guess not next week ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "week and a half , uh , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . Um . You know . So , I mean one way would {disfmarker} he Here are some alternate visions . I mean one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same {disfmarker} different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to {disfmarker} to pick two pol two plausible things , and {disfmarker} and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and then , you know , uh , but , w um , uh , he 'll have some ideas on that too .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The other thing is to , uh {disfmarker} Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we {disfmarker} we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some {disfmarker} I mean , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's {disfmarker} Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we {disfmarker} if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization {pause} to make it work @ @ .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So they 're making {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive {disfmarker} artificially added noise or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sort of a {disfmarker} sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I m I guess Guenter Hirsch is in charge of that . Guenter Hirsch and TI .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Maybe Roger {disfmarker} r Roger , maybe in charge of .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh , uh , generating HTK scripts to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I don't know . There are {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} there is no {disfmarker} I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mis - Mississippi State maybe ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah . I 'm not sure about that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah , so that 'll be a little {disfmarker} little task in itself .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , well we 've {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . So we we did the Broadcast News evaluation", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and some of the focus conditions were noisy and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It had additive n", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But we {disfmarker} but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi uh , multi - stream and {disfmarker} and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But it , you know , we di stuff we did helped . I mean it , did something .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Um , now we have this um , meeting data . You know , like the stuff we 're {comment} recording right now ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and uh , that we have uh , for the {disfmarker} uh , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just {disfmarker} noisy and reverberant actually . It 's the far field mike . And uh , we have uh , the digits that we do at the end of these things . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with {disfmarker} with uh , connected digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , but uh , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard {disfmarker} uh , Switchboard recognizer ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh , no training , {vocalsound} from this , just {disfmarker} just plain using the Switchboard .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . You just take the Switchboard trained {disfmarker} ? Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . Now there are some adaptation though ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah . That 's cool .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "that {disfmarker} that uh , Andreas has been playing with ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but we 're hop uh , actually uh , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , uh , some of the large vocabulary data . Um , I mean , I guess no one had done {disfmarker} yet done test one on the distant mike using uh , the SRI recognizer and , uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} not that I know of .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , cuz everybody 's scared .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the {disfmarker} the CPU or something {vocalsound} trying to {disfmarker} trying to do it ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That 's right", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but uh , yeah . But , you 're right that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's a real good point , that uh , we {disfmarker} we don't know yeah , uh , I mean , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the uh {disfmarker} in the evaluation .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , But um , Good . OK . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't have good result , with the {disfmarker} inc including the new parameters ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't have good result . Are {pause} similar or a little bit worse .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "With what {disfmarker} what other new p new parameter ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 're talking about your voicing ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So maybe {disfmarker} You probably need to back up a bit", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "seeing as how Sunil ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the coe the cepstrum coefficient ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for {disfmarker} of the spec si uh , spectrum of the signal and {disfmarker} and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I 'm so sorry . I didn't get it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Nuh . Well . Anyway . The {disfmarker} First you have the sp the spectrum of the signal ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mmm . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I do the difference {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I found a difference at the variance of this different", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because , suppose we {disfmarker} we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n uh , noise .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if the variance is small , maybe you have uh , speech .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "To {disfmarker} to To {disfmarker} The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And we try to use this new feature {disfmarker} feature . And I did experiment {disfmarker} I need to change {disfmarker} to obtain this new feature I need to change the size {disfmarker} the window size {disfmarker} size . of the a of the {disfmarker} analysis window size , to have more information .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Make it longer .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , sixty - two point five milliseconds I think .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And I do {disfmarker} I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the {disfmarker} with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence {disfmarker} silence", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Unvoiced . Well .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and to {disfmarker} to concat this new feature . But the result are n with the neural network I have more or less the same result .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "As using just the cepstrum ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Result .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh , is it with TI - digits , or with {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But Doesn't help .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I really wonder though .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean we 've had these discussions before , and {disfmarker} and one of the things that struck me was that {disfmarker} uh , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we um {disfmarker} whenever you condense things , uh , in an irreversible way , um , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for uh particular , uh , phonetic units . Um , but , you 'll do throw something away . And so the question is , uh , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . And um . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking \" oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice {disfmarker} voiced property whatever . \" So that {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Maybe that helps to drive the {disfmarker} the thought process of coming up with the features . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , \" well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? \" So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT uh , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "To know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or {disfmarker} or whatever", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wi - with what targets ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Voiced , unvoiced is like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , no .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . Or anything .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No the {disfmarker} just the same {disfmarker} same way we 're using {disfmarker} I mean , the same way that we 're using the filter bank .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Phones .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Exact way {disfmarker} the same way we 're using the filter bank .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , the filter bank is good for all the reasons that we say it 's good . But it 's different . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or uh , um , adding probabilities , I mean , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the {disfmarker} essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is so much variability in the power spectrum .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , uh , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and {disfmarker} and uh , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to uh , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . So I mean the {disfmarker} i i It 's true there 's lots of variability ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , um , uh , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about uh , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily {disfmarker} not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , d", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , so anyway , it 's just a thought , that {disfmarker} that if we {disfmarker} if we had that {disfmarker} maybe it 's just a baseline uh , which would show us \" well , what are we really getting out of the filters \" , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the {disfmarker} But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . But , maybe the neural net and the H M Ms could figure it out quicker than you .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "It 's just a thought .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker} I will try to do that .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one um p one thing is like what {disfmarker} before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the {disfmarker} th what we did was like , I {disfmarker} I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the HMM on that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That is just a binary feature and that seems to be {vocalsound} improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . That 's it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wait {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You did some experiment .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Well , in {disfmarker} in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and it was very short . But Italian was like very {disfmarker} it was a huge improvement on Italian .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean . To {disfmarker} maybe to distinguish between voice sound and unvoiced sounds ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "There was a paper in ICASSP {disfmarker} this ICASSP {disfmarker} over the uh extracting some higher - order uh , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can {disfmarker} I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . It {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Talking cumulants or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Huh ? Uh , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cumulants or something .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't remember .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} No .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It wa it was taking the , um {disfmarker} It was about finding the higher - order moments of {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "cumulants , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "maybe higher - order cumulants", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah . It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Or m e", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , he was showing up uh some {disfmarker} something on noisy speech ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "some improvement on the noisy speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Some small vocabulary tasks .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So it was on PLP derived cepstral coefficients .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but again {disfmarker} You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So n neural network uh , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "trying to f to Moments , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . So . I mean , it doesn't do it very specifically ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and pretty {disfmarker} you know . But .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , anything on your end you want to talk about ? Uh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , nothing I wanna really talk about . I can {disfmarker} I can just uh , um , share a little bit {disfmarker} Sunil hasn't {disfmarker} hasn't heard about uh , what I 've been doing .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , so , um , I told you I was {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , um , trying to propose um , uh , your next your {disfmarker} your following years of {disfmarker} of your PHD work , trying {disfmarker} trying to find a project to {disfmarker} to define and {disfmarker} and to work on . So , I 've been , uh , looking into , um , doing something about r uh , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , um , the idea is you have all these {disfmarker} these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , uh , frication , that kinda stuff , um , building robust um , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . Um , and , um , these {disfmarker} these primary detectors , um , will be , uh , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , um , doing things , um , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , uh , graphical models to {disfmarker} to detect these {disfmarker} these , uh , acoustic events . And , um , so I {disfmarker} I been {disfmarker} I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , um , exactly what {disfmarker} what kind of acoustic events I need , what {disfmarker} um , what acoustic events will provide a {disfmarker} a good enough coverage to {disfmarker} in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , um , once I decide a set of acoustic events , um , h how do I {disfmarker} how do I get labels ? Training data for {disfmarker} for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the {disfmarker} the models themselves , the {disfmarker} the primary detectors . Um , so , um , I kinda see {disfmarker} like , after {disfmarker} after building the primary detectors I see um , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into {disfmarker} into a um , Gaussian mixtures HMM back - end , um , and doing recognition . Um . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's just generally what I 've been looking at .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "By {disfmarker} by the way , uh , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you know , um , if you {disfmarker} if a multi - band approach was helpful as {disfmarker} as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "that one might be another thing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um , were {disfmarker} were you gonna say something ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh . It looked {disfmarker} OK , never mind . Um , yeah . And so , this {disfmarker} this past week um , I 've been uh , looking a little bit into uh , TRAPS um , and doing {disfmarker} doing TRAPS on {disfmarker} on these e events too , just , um , seeing {disfmarker} seeing if that 's possible . Uh , and um , other than that , uh , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Oh no . So you live in a cardboard box in the street now", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "or , no ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , well , s s som something like that .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "In Albany , yeah . Yeah . And uh . Yep . That 's it .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Suni - i d ' you v did uh {disfmarker} did you find a place ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is that out of the way ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "not yet . Uh , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . So . And she would get back to me on Monday . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's only thing I have and Diane has a few more houses . She 's going to take some pictures and send me after I go back . So it 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . So you 're not down here permanently yet ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "No . I 'm going back to OGI today .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Ah ! Oh , OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "OK . And then , you 're coming back uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , i I mean , I {disfmarker} I p I plan to be here on thirty - first .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Thirty - first ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Thirty - first .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Well , I mean i i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I hope .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a while", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So , in that case , I 'm going to be here on thirty - first definitely .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "until you {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . I 've got a spare bedroom right now .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh . OK . Thanks . That sure is nice of you . So , it may be he needs more than me .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh r oh . Oh no , no . My {disfmarker} my cardboard box is actually a nice spacious two bedroom apartment .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So a two bedroom cardboard box . Th - that 's great .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Thanks Dave .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Do y wanna say anything about {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you actually been {disfmarker} Uh , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were {disfmarker} you were mentioning . Is that {disfmarker} that something worth talking about , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , it 's {disfmarker} Well , um , it {disfmarker} I don't think it directly relates . Um , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to um , look at um , how people respond to formant changes , I think . Um . So he {disfmarker} he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic um , spectrum . And he wanted to look at um , how the energy is moving {pause} over time in that spectrum and compare that to the {disfmarker} to the listener tests . And , um . So , I gave him a PLP spectrum . And {disfmarker} to um {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . So I took the um , PLP LPC coefficients and um , I found the roots . This was something that Stephane suggested . I found the roots of the um , LPC polynomial to , um , track the peaks in the , um , PLP LPC spectra .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} Is that the aligned s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's a r root LPC , uh , of some sort .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , no .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "instead of the log you took the root square , I mean cubic root or something . What di w I didn't get that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No , no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's taking the {disfmarker} finding the roots of the LPC polynomial .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Polynomial . Yeah . Is that the line spectral {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's like line spectral pairs .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's like line sp", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "to sort of ? But it {disfmarker} But uh , you know . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was {disfmarker} was taking the LPC polynomial and {disfmarker} and uh , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and uh , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny {vocalsound} values in {disfmarker} in real speech ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So you just {disfmarker} You typically just get a few roots ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You know , two or three ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well you get these complex pairs .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "something like that ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So , um , if {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Every root that 's {disfmarker} Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root {comment} is gonna be a c complex pair ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "um , of a complex value and its conjugate . Um . So for each {disfmarker} And if you look at that on the unit circle , um , one of these {disfmarker} one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just {disfmarker} So , um , f for the {disfmarker} I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "which give me s which gives me three or four peak positions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This is from synthetic speech , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So if it 's from synthetic speech then maybe it 'll be cleaner . I mean for real speech in real {disfmarker} then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are {disfmarker} don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "How did {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but mostly they are .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mostly they do .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and what {disfmarker} I mean in {disfmarker} in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "because it was just a question of quantization . Uh , we were just you know , storing {disfmarker} It was {disfmarker} We were doing , uh , stored speech , uh , quantization .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but uh , in your case um , you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} there 's some of that , yes .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Well they are much lower .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? I mean h how is the speech created ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "It was created from a synthesizer , and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I bet it {disfmarker} it might have {disfmarker} may have been", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} d d this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "In {disfmarker} in fact w we {disfmarker} we could get , um , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , um , w one thing that the , um , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , um , is that I {disfmarker} I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . Um , Stephane suggested looking at each complex pair as a {disfmarker} like a se second - order IIR filter .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to um , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . Except that you don't have the psycho - acoustic modeling in that .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , so the actual {disfmarker} So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . You 're getting the {disfmarker} Again , you 're getting sort of the , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You 're getting something that is {disfmarker} is uh , af strongly affected by the PLP model . And so it 's more psycho - acoustic . So it 's a little {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's sort of {disfmarker} sort of a different thing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . That 's sort of the point .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban uh , formant centers are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean , that 's {disfmarker} Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as {disfmarker} as what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , uh , band center and band width , and um , um {disfmarker} But . Yeah . O K . So , uh , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and . Yeah . Great ! Well , welcome .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess we should do digits quickly .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I almost forgot that .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Digits .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I almost forgot our daily digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You wanna go ahead ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" } ]

[ { "content": "Uh , is it the twenty - fourth ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "now we 're on .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh Chuck , is the mike type wireless {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "wireless headset ? OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "For you it is .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . We uh {disfmarker} we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too {disfmarker} not too hot , not too cold , they were {disfmarker} you know , they were {vocalsound} uh , far enough away that you got more background noise , uh , and uh {disfmarker} and so forth", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but they weren't so close that they got quite the {disfmarker} you know , the really good {disfmarker} No , th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "they {disfmarker} I mean they didn't {disfmarker} Wait a minute . I 'm saying that wrong . They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference . So it was no {disfmarker} didn't seem to be a good point to them . On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice , precisely because it 's in the middle .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "There 's uh , some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you don't get with the lapel uh , little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel , but given the choice we {disfmarker} there seemed to be very strong opinions for uh , getting rid of lapels .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The mike number is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , your mike number 's written on the back of that unit there .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah . One .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then the channel number 's usually one less than that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It - it 's one less than what 's written on the back of your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . So you should be zero , actually .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hello ? Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "For your uh , channel number .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yep , yep .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And you should do a lot of talking so we get a lot more of your pronunciations . no , they don't {disfmarker} don't have a {disfmarker} have any Indian pronunciations .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So what we usually do is um , we typically will have our meetings", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then at the end of the meetings we 'll read the digits . Everybody goes around and reads the digits on the {disfmarker} the bottom of their forms .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Session R", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "R - nineteen ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "R - nineteen .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . We 're {disfmarker} This is session R - nineteen .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "If you say so . O K . Do we have anything like an agenda ? What 's going on ? Um . I guess um . So . One thing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Sunil 's here for the summer , right . Um , so , one thing is to talk about a kick off meeting maybe uh , and then just uh , I guess uh , progress reports individually , and then uh , plans for where we go between now and then , pretty much . Um .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I could say a few words about um , some of the uh , compute stuff that 's happening around here , so that people in the group know .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Why don't you start with that ? That 's sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "We um {disfmarker} So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines , uh , to use as sort of a compute farm . And um , uh , we ordered uh , SUN - Blade - one - hundreds , and um , I 'm not sure exactly how long it 'll take for those to come in , but , uh , in addition , we 're running {disfmarker} So the plan for using these is , uh , we 're running P - make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all uh , fixed up and up to speed . And he 's got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to um , {vocalsound} run things using P - make and Customs . You don't actually have to write P - make scripts and things like that . The simplest thing {disfmarker} And I can send an email around or , maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "How about an email that points to the FAQ ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "there 's a c", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "you know what I 'm saying ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "so that you can {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , there 's a command , uh , that you can use called \" run command \" . \" Run dash command \" , \" run hyphen command \" . And , if you say that and then some job that you want to execute , uh , it will find the fastest currently available machine , and export your job to that machine , and uh {disfmarker} and run it there and it 'll duplicate your environment . So you can try this as a simple test with uh , the L S command . So you can say \" run dash command L S \" , and , um , it 'll actually export that {vocalsound} LS command to some machine in the institute , and um , do an LS on your current directory . So , substitute LS for whatever command you want to run , and um {disfmarker} And that 's a simple way to get started using {disfmarker} using this . And , so , soon , when we get all the new machines up , {vocalsound} um , e then we 'll have lots more compute to use . Now th one of the nice things is that uh , each machine that 's part of the P - make and Customs network has attributes associated with it . Uh , attributes like how much memory the machine has , what its speed is , what its operating system , and when you use something like \" run command \" , you can specify those attributes for your program . For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux , you can give it the Linux attribute , and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that . So . You can control where your jobs go , to a certain extent , all the way down to an individual machine . Each machine has an attribute which is the name of itself . So you can give that as an attribute and it 'll only run on that . If there 's already a job running , on some machine that you 're trying to select , your job will get queued up , and then when that resource , that machine becomes available , your job will get exported there . So , there 's a lot of nice features to it and it kinda helps to balance the load of the machines and uh , right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we 're {disfmarker} Uh . The SRI recognizer has all this P - make customs stuff built into it .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So as I understand , you know , he 's using all the machines and you 're using all the machines ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "is the rough division of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Exactly . Yeah , you know , I {disfmarker} I sort of got started {comment} using the recognizer just recently and uh , uh I fired off a training job , and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying , \" uh , are you running two {vocalsound} trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run . \" So I had to back off a little bit . But , soon as we get some more machines then uh {disfmarker} then we 'll have more compute available . So , um , that 's just a quick update about what we 've got . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , I have {disfmarker} I have a question about the uh , parallelization ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , um , let 's say I have like , a thousand little {disfmarker} little jobs to do ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , how do I do it with \" run command \" ? I mean do {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "You could write a script uh , which called run command on each sub - job", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . A thousand times ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "right ? But you probably wanna be careful with that", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "because um , you don't wanna saturate the network . Uh , so , um , you know , you should {disfmarker} you should probably not run more than , say ten jobs yourself at any one time , uh , just because then it would keep other people {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , too much file transfer and stuff .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Well it 's not that so much as that , you know , e with {disfmarker} if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and , you know , people 's jobs would get delayed , so it 's sort of a sharing thing . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time . Um . So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run , um , you 'd somehow need to put some logic in there if you were gonna use \" run command \" , uh , to only have ten of those going at a time . And uh , then , when one of those finished you 'd fire off another one . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I remember I {disfmarker} I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or {disfmarker} or Hopkins workshop , I remember one of the workshops I was at there were {disfmarker} everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty - five machines and there was some kind of P - make like thing that sit sent things out .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So all twenty - five people were sending things to all twenty - five machines", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and {vocalsound} and things were a lot less efficient than if you 'd just use your own machine .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yep . Yeah , exactly . Yeah , you have to be a little bit careful .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "as I recall , but . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , but uh , you can also {disfmarker} If you have that level of parallelization um , and you don't wanna have to worry about writing the logic in {disfmarker} in a Perl script to take care of that , you can use um , P - make", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Just do P - make .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and you basically write a Make file that uh , you know your final job depends on these one thousand things ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "s Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and when you run P - make , uh , on your Make file , you can give it the dash capital J and {disfmarker} and then a number ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "and that number represents how many uh , machines to use at once . And then it 'll make sure that it never goes above that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right . OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "I can get some documentation .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not systematically queued . I mean all the jobs are running . If you launch twenty jobs , they are all running . Alright .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It depends . If you {disfmarker} \" Run command \" , that I mentioned before , is {disfmarker} doesn't know about other things that you might be running .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , it would be possible to run a hundred run jobs at once ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and they wouldn't know about each other . But if you use P - make , then , it knows about all the jobs that it has to run", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and it can control , uh , how many it runs simultaneously .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So \" run command \" doesn't use P - make , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It uses \" export \" underlyingly . But , if you {disfmarker} i It 's meant to be run one job at a time ? So you could fire off a thousand of those , and it doesn't know {disfmarker} any one of those doesn't know about the other ones that are running .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So why would one use that rather than P - make ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Well , if you have , um {disfmarker} Like , for example , uh if you didn't wanna write a P - make script and you just had a , uh {disfmarker} an HTK training job that you know is gonna take uh , six hours to run , and somebody 's using , uh , the machine you typically use , you can say \" run command \" and your HTK thing and it 'll find another machine , the fastest currently available machine and {disfmarker} and run your job there .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Now , does it have the same sort of behavior as P - make , which is that , you know , if you run something on somebody 's machine and they come in and hit a key then it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah , there are um {disfmarker} Right . So some of the machines at the institute , um , have this attribute called \" no evict \" . And if you specify that , in {disfmarker} in one of your attribute lines , then it 'll go to a machine which your job won't be evicted from .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But , the machines that don't have that attribute , if a job gets fired up on that , which could be somebody 's desktop machine , and {disfmarker} and they were at lunch ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "they come back from lunch and they start typing on the console , then your machine will get evicted {disfmarker} your job {comment} will get evicted from their machine and be restarted on another machine . Automatically . So {disfmarker} which can cause you to lose time , right ? If you had a two hour job , and it got halfway through and then somebody came back to their machine and it got evicted . So . If you don't want your job to run on a machine where it could be evicted , then you give it the minus {disfmarker} the attribute , you know , \" no evict \" , and it 'll pick a machine that it can't be evicted from . So .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um , what {disfmarker} what about {disfmarker} I remember always used to be an issue , maybe it 's not anymore , that if you {disfmarker} if something required {disfmarker} if your machine required somebody hitting a key in order to evict things that are on it so you could work , but if you were logged into it from home ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and you weren't hitting any keys ? cuz you were , home ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how that works .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , it seems like Andreas did something for that .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . We can ask him sometime .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . I don't know whether it monitors the keyboard or actually looks at the console TTY , so maybe if you echoed something to the you know , dev {disfmarker} dev console or something .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "You probably wouldn't ordinarily , though . Yeah . Right ? You probably wouldn't ordinarily .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean you sort of {disfmarker} you 're at home and you 're trying to log in , and it takes forever to even log you in , and you probably go , \" screw this \" ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} You know .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so , um ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah . I {disfmarker} I can {disfmarker} I 'm not sure about that one .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But uh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , I need a little orientation about this environment and uh scr s how to run some jobs here because I never d did anything so far with this X emissions", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , I think maybe I 'll ask you after the meeting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah . Yeah , and {disfmarker} and also uh , Stephane 's a {disfmarker} a really good resource for that if you can't find me .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Yep . OK , sure", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Especially with regard to the Aurora stuff .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He {disfmarker} he knows that stuff better than I do .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "OK . Well , why don't we uh , uh , Sunil since you 're {vocalsound} haven't {disfmarker} haven't been at one of these yet , why don't yo you tell us what 's {disfmarker} what 's up with you ? Wh - what you 've been up to , hopefully .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah . So , uh , shall I start from {disfmarker} Well I don't know how may I {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} OK . Uh , I think I 'll start from the post uh Aurora submission maybe .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah , after the submission the {disfmarker} what I 've been working on mainly was to take {disfmarker} take other s submissions and then over their system , what they submitted , because we didn't have any speech enhancement system in {disfmarker} in ours . So {disfmarker} So I tried uh , And u First I tried just LDA . And then I found that uh , I mean , if {disfmarker} if I combine it with LDA , it gives @ @ improvement over theirs . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Are y are you saying LDA ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "LDA . OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , just {disfmarker} just the LDA filters . I just plug in {disfmarker} I just take the cepstral coefficients coming from their system and then plug in LDA on top of that . But the LDA filter that I used was different from what we submitted in the proposal .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "What I did was {vocalsound} I took the LDA filter 's design using clean speech , uh , mainly because the speech is already cleaned up after the enhancement so , instead of using this , uh , narrow {disfmarker} narrow band LDA filter that we submitted uh , I got new filters . So that seems to be giving {disfmarker} uh , improving over their uh , system . Slightly . But , not very significantly . And uh , that was uh , showing any improvement over {disfmarker} final {disfmarker} by plugging in an LDA . And uh , so then after {disfmarker} after that I {disfmarker} I added uh , on - line normalization also on top of that . And that {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there also I n I found that I have to make some changes to their time constant that I used because th it has a {disfmarker} a mean and variance update time constant and {disfmarker} which is not suitable for the enhanced speech , and whatever we try it on with proposal - one . But um , I didn't {disfmarker} I didn't play with that time constant a lot , I just t g I just found that I have to reduce the value {disfmarker} I mean , I have to increase the time constant , or reduce the value of the update value . That 's all I found So I have to . Uh , Yeah . And uh , uh , the other {disfmarker} other thing what I tried was , I just um , uh , took the baseline and then ran it with the endpoint inf uh th information , just the Aurora baseline , to see that how much the baseline itself improves by just supplying the information of the {disfmarker} I mean the w speech and nonspeech . And uh , I found that the baseline itself improves by twenty - two percent by just giving the wuh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , can you back up a second , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I missed something , uh , I guess my mind wandered . Ad - ad When you added the on - line normalization and so forth , uh , uh things got better again ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "or is it ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "No . No , things didn't get better with the same time constant that we used .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Did it not ? No , no . With a different time constant .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "With the different time constant I found that {disfmarker} I mean , I didn't get an improvement over not using on - line normalization ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "because I {disfmarker} I found that I would have change the value of the update factor .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No you didn't , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But I didn't play it with play {disfmarker} play quite a bit to make it better than .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , it 's still not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I mean , the on - line normalization didn't give me any improvement .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And uh , so ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "oh yeah So I just stopped there with the uh , speech enhancement . The {disfmarker} the other thing what I tried was the {disfmarker} adding the uh , endpoint information to the baseline and that itself gives like twenty - two percent because the {disfmarker} the second {disfmarker} the new phase is going to be with the endpointed speech . And just to get a feel of how much the baseline itself is going to change by adding this endpoint information , I just , uh , use {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So people won't even have to worry about , uh , doing speech - nonspeech then .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's , that 's what the feeling is like . They 're going to give the endpoint information .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "G I guess the issue is that people do that anyway ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "everybody does that ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and they wanted to see , given that you 're doing that , what {disfmarker} what are the best features that you should use .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean clearly they 're interact . So I don't know that I entirely agree with it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but it might be uh {disfmarker} In some ways it might be better t to {disfmarker} rather than giving the endpoints , to have a standard that everybody uses and then interacts with .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But , you know . It 's {disfmarker} it 's still someth reasonable .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , are people supposed to assume that there is uh {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are people not supposed to use any speech outside of those endpoints ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Or can you then use speech outside of it for estimating background noise and things ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "No . No . That i I {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I guess that is {disfmarker} that is where the consensus is . Like y you will {disfmarker} you will {disfmarker} You 'll be given the information about the beginning and the end of speech but the whole speech is available to you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it should make the spectral subtraction style things work even better ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because you don't have the mistakes in it . Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} The baseline itself {disfmarker} I mean , it improves by twenty - two percent . I found that in s one of the SpeechDat - Car cases , that like , the Spanish one improves by just fifty percent by just putting the endpoint . w", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean you don't need any further speech enhancement with fifty . So , uh ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So the baseline itself improves by fifty percent .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , by fifty percent .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So it 's g it 's gonna be harder to {vocalsound} beat that actually .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "so that is when uh , the {disfmarker} the qualification criteria was reduced from fifty percent to something like twenty - five percent for well - matched . And I think they have {disfmarker} they have actually changed their qualification c criteria now . And uh , Yeah , I guess after that , I just went home f I just had a vacation fo for four weeks . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK . No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's a good {disfmarker} good update .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Ye Yeah , and I {disfmarker} I came back and I started working on uh , some other speech enhancement algorithm . I mean , so {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} from the submission what I found that people have tried spectral subtraction and Wiener filtering . These are the main uh , approaches where people have tried ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "so just to {disfmarker} just to fill the space with some f few more speech enhancement algorithms to see whether it improves a lot , I {disfmarker} I 've been working on this uh , signal subspace approach for speech enhancement where you take the noisy signal and then decomposing the signal s and the noise subspace and then try to estimate the clean speech from the signal plus noise subspace . And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , I 've been actually running some s So far I 've been trying it only on Matlab . I have to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to test whether it works first or not", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then I 'll p port it to C and I 'll update it with the repository once I find it it giving any some positive result . So , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "S So you s you So you said one thing I want to jump on for a second . So {disfmarker} so now you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting tuned into the repository thing that he has here", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} so we we 'll have a {vocalsound} single place where the stuff is .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yep . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cool . Um , so maybe uh , just briefly , you could remind us about the related experiments . Cuz you did some stuff that you talked about last week , I guess ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , where you were also combining something {disfmarker} both of you I guess were both combining something from the uh , French Telecom system with {vocalsound} the u uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know whether it was system one or system two , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . It was system one . So", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "we {disfmarker} The main thing that we did is just to take the spectral subtraction from the France Telecom , which provide us some speech samples that are uh , with noise removed .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I let me {disfmarker} let me just stop you there . So then , one distinction is that uh , you were taking the actual France Telecom features and then applying something to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no there is a slight different . Uh I mean , which are extracted at the handset because they had another back - end blind equalization {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . But that 's what I mean .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But u u Sorry ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah , I 'm not being {disfmarker} I 'm not being clear .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What I meant was you had something like cepstra or something , right ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And so one difference is that , I guess you were taking spectra .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But I guess it 's the s exactly the same thing because on the heads uh , handset they just applied this Wiener filter and then compute cepstral features ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , the cepstral f The difference is like {disfmarker} There may be a slight difference in the way {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "right ? or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "because they use exactly the baseline system for converting the cepstrum once you have the speech . I mean , if we are using our own code for th I mean that {disfmarker} that could be the only difference .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , there is no other difference .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But you got some sort of different result . So I 'm trying to understand it . But uh , I th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , well I think we should uh , have a table with all the result because I don't know I uh , I don't exactly know what are your results ? But ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but so we did this , and another difference I guess is that we just applied uh , proposal - one system after this without {disfmarker} well , with our modification to reduce the delay of the {disfmarker} the LDA filters ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the filter {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well there are slight modifications , but it was the full proposal - one . In your case , if you tried just putting LDA , then maybe on - line normalization {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Only LDA . Yeah . Af - I {disfmarker} after that I added on - line normalization , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So we just tried directly to {disfmarker} to just , keep the system as it was and , um , when we plug the spectral subtraction it improves uh , signif significantly . Um , but , what seems clear also is that we have to retune the time constants of the on - line normalization .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because if we keep the value that was submitted uh , it doesn't help at all . You can remove on - line normalization , or put it , it doesn't change anything . Uh , uh , as long as you have the spectral subtraction . But , you can still find some kind of optimum somewhere , and we don't know where exactly", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but , uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I assume .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it sounds like you should look at some tables of results or something", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and see where i where the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} where they were different and what we can learn from it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "without any change . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's the new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} with changes ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "with", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "because we change it the system to have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I mean the {disfmarker} the new LDA filters .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The new .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . LDA filters . There are other things that we finally were shown to improve also like , the sixty - four hertz cut - off .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "w Uh , it doesn't seem to hurt on TI - digits , finally .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Maybe because of other changes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , well there are some {vocalsound} minor changes , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And , right now if we look at the results , it 's , um , always better than {disfmarker} it seems always better than France Telecom for mismatch and high - mismatch . And it 's still slightly worse for well - matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Um , but this is not significant . But , the problem is that it 's not significant , but if you put this in the , mmm , uh , spreadsheet , it 's still worse . Even with very minor {disfmarker} uh , even if it 's only slightly worse for well - matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And significantly better for HM . Uh , but , well . I don't think it 's importa important because when they will change their metric , uh , uh , mainly because of uh , when you p you plug the um , frame dropping in the baseline system , it will improve a lot HM , and MM ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "so , um , I guess what will happen {disfmarker} I don't know what will happen . But , the different contribution , I think , for the different test set will be more even .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Because the {disfmarker} your improvement on HM and MM will also go down significantly in the spreadsheet so . But the {pause} the well - matched may still {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean the well - matched may be the one which is least affected by adding the endpoint information .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So the {disfmarker} the MM {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "MM and HM are going to be v hugely affected by it . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , so um , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But they d the {disfmarker} everything I mean is like , but there that 's how they reduce {disfmarker} why they reduce the qualification to twenty - five percent or some {disfmarker} something on .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But are they changing the weighting ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no , I guess they are going ahead with the same weighting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . So there 's nothing on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't understand that .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess I {disfmarker} I haven't been part of the discussion , so , um , it seems to me that the well - matched condition is gonna be unusual ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Usual .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "in this case . Unusual .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because , um , you don't actually have good matches ordinarily for what any @ @ {disfmarker} particular person 's car is like , or", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It seems like something like the middle one is {disfmarker} is more natural .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So I don't know why the {pause} well - matched is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but actually the well {disfmarker} well the well - matched um , uh , I mean the {disfmarker} the well - matched condition is not like , uh , the one in TI - digits where uh , you have all the training , uh , conditions exactly like replicated in the testing condition also . It 's like , this is not calibrated by SNR or something . The well - matched has also some {disfmarker} some mismatch in that which is other than the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "The well wa matched has mismatch ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "has {disfmarker} has also some slight mismatches , unlike the TI - digits where it 's like prefectly matched", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Perfect to match .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "because it 's artificially added noise .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But this is natural recording .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So remind me of what well - matched meant ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the well - matched is like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 've told me many times .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the well - matched is defined like it 's seventy percent of the whole database is used for training and thirty percent for testing .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , so it means that if the database is large enough , it 's matched .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Because it", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "in each set you have a range of conditions {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So , I mean , yeah , unless they deliberately chose it to be different , which they didn't because they want it to be well - matched , it is pretty much {disfmarker} You know , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's sort of saying if you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's not guaranteed though .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , it 's not guaranteed .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah because the m the main {disfmarker} major reason for the m", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the main mismatch is coming from the amount of noise and the silence frames and all those present in the database actually .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Again , if you have enough {disfmarker} if you have enough {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "No yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's sort of i i it 's sort of saying OK , so you {disfmarker} much as you train your dictation machine for talking into your computer , um , you {disfmarker} you have a car , and so you drive it around a bunch and {disfmarker} and record noise conditions , or something , and then {disfmarker} I don't think that 's very realistic , I mean I th", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I you know , so I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , I guess they 're saying that if you were a company that was selling the stuff commercially , that you would have a bunch of people driving around in a bunch of cars , and {disfmarker} and you would have something that was roughly similar and maybe that 's the argument , but I 'm not sure I buy it , so .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , So What else is going on ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm . You Yeah . We are playing {disfmarker} we are also playing , trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm , in the code . Um , it would be a very simple spectral subtraction , on the um , mel energies which I already tested but without the um frame dropping actually , and I think it 's important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is spectral subtraction typically done on the {disfmarker} after the mel , uh , scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Does it matter , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I d I don't know . Well , it 's both {disfmarker} both uh , cases can i", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah . So - some of the proposal , uh , we 're doing this on the bin {disfmarker} on the FFT bins ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "others on the um , mel energies . You can do both , but I cannot tell you what 's {disfmarker} which one might be better or {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech , it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I don't know . Yeah , but", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But for speech recognition , it may not . I mean it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT . So you 're going to do a linear weighting anyway after that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} Yeah ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "So , it may not be really a big different .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it gives something different , but I don't know what are the , pros and cons of both .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It I Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The other thing is like when you 're putting in a speech enhancement technique , uh , is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals , which is really giving them some improvement .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean they just do the same thing again once more .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So , there 's something that is good about doing it {disfmarker} I mean , to cleaning it up once more .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it might be .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so we can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's what", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , the other thing would be to combine what you 're doing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean maybe one or {disfmarker} one or the other of the things that you 're doing would benefit from the other happening first .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That 's wh Yeah . So ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right , so he 's doing a signal subspace thing , maybe it would work better if you 'd already done some simple spectral subtraction , or maybe vi maybe the other way around ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "you know ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So I 've been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean just to see all {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "How is it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I guess I 'm ignorant about this , how does {disfmarker} I mean , since Wiener filter also assumes that you 're {disfmarker} that you 're adding together the two signals , how is {disfmarker} how is that differ from signal subspace ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The signal subspace ? The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The signal subspace approach has actually an in - built Wiener filtering in it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter . Is the signal is {disfmarker} is a signal substrate .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , oh , OK so the difference is the KL .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the different {disfmarker} the c the {disfmarker} the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach doesn't work very well if the SNR is very bad . It 's {disfmarker} it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions , and in colored noise .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see . So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction , followed by a KL transform , followed by a", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wiener filtering . It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a cascade of two s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wiener filter . Yeah , in general , you don't {disfmarker} that 's right you don't wanna othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy . Actually . Um , that was something that uh , Herve and I were talking about with um , the multi - band stuff , that if you 're converting things to from uh , bands , groups of bands into cepstral coef you know , local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it 's not that great to do it if it 's noisy .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Yeah . So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that 's one reason maybe we could combine s some {disfmarker} something to improve SNR a little bit , first stage ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then do a something in the second stage which could take it further .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What was your point about {disfmarker} about colored noise there ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , the colored noise uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "the colored noise {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the v the signal subspace approach has {disfmarker} I mean , it {disfmarker} it actually depends on inverting the matrices . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} ac the covariance matrix of the noise . So if {disfmarker} if it is not positive definite ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean it has a {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} It doesn't behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So you should do spectral subtraction and then add noise .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering , first of the colo colored noise", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then make the noise white ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back , you do this filtering again .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I was only half kidding . I mean if you {disfmarker} sort of {vocalsound} you do the s spectral subtraction , that also gets rid {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then you {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then add a little bit l noise {disfmarker} noise addition {disfmarker} I mean , that sort of what J {disfmarker} JRASTA does , in a way .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it 's equivalent to sort of adding a little {disfmarker} adding a little noise ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Huh ? Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "in order to get rid of the effects of noise .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . So there is this . And maybe we {disfmarker} well we find some people so that {vocalsound} uh , agree to maybe work with us , and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it 's um , Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm , {vocalsound} uh f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra . So . Well , if you take the standard model of channel plus noise , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a nonlinear eh uh , transformation in the cepstral domain .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And uh , there is a way to approximate this using uh , first - order or second - order Taylor Series and it can be used for {vocalsound} uh , getting rid of the noise and the channel effect .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Who is doing this ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , in Grenada one of my friend .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and another in {pause} uh , Lucent that I met at ICASSP .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Who 's the guy in Grenada ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "uh ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , Jose Carlos Segura .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I don't know him .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "This VTS has been proposed by CMU ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker} is it the CMU ? Yeah , yeah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah . Originally the idea was from CMU .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "From C .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Well , it 's again a different thing {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that could be tried . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , so at any rate , you 're looking general , uh , standing back from it , looking at ways to combine one form or another of uh , noise removal , uh , with {disfmarker} with these other things we have ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh , looks like a worthy thing to {disfmarker} to do here .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah . But , yeah . But for sure there 's required to {disfmarker} that requires to re - check everything else , and re - optimize the other things", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and , for sure the on - line normalization may be the LDA filter . Um ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well one of the {disfmarker} seems like one of the things to go through next week when Hari 's here ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "cuz Hari 'll have his own ideas too {disfmarker} or {pause} I guess not next week ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "week and a half , uh , will be sort of go through these alternatives , what we 've seen so far , and come up with some game plans . Um . You know . So , I mean one way would {disfmarker} he Here are some alternate visions . I mean one would be , you look at a few things very quickly , you pick on something that looks like it 's promising and then everybody works really hard on the same {disfmarker} different aspects of the same thing . Another thing would be to have t to {disfmarker} to pick two pol two plausible things , and {disfmarker} and you know , have t sort of two working things for a while until we figure out what 's better ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and then , you know , uh , but , w um , uh , he 'll have some ideas on that too .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "The other thing is to , uh {disfmarker} Most of the speech enhancement techniques have reported results on small vocabulary tasks . But we {disfmarker} we going to address this Wall Street Journal in our next stage , which is also going to be a noisy task so s very few people have reported something on using some continuous speech at all . So , there are some {disfmarker} I mean , I was looking at some literature on speech enhancement applied to large vocabulary tasks and spectral subtraction doesn't seems to be the thing to do for large vocabulary tasks . And it 's {disfmarker} Always people have shown improvement with Wiener filtering and maybe subspace approach over spectral subtraction everywhere . But if we {disfmarker} if we have to use simple spectral subtraction , we may have to do some optimization {pause} to make it work @ @ .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So they 're making {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} Somebody 's generating Wall Street Journal with additive {disfmarker} artificially added noise or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sort of a {disfmarker} sort of like what they did with TI - digits , and ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I m I guess Guenter Hirsch is in charge of that . Guenter Hirsch and TI .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Maybe Roger {disfmarker} r Roger , maybe in charge of .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And then they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh , uh , generating HTK scripts to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I don't know . There are {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} there is no {disfmarker} I don't know if they are converging on HTK or are using some Mississippi State ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mis - Mississippi State maybe ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah . I 'm not sure about that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . Yeah , so that 'll be a little {disfmarker} little task in itself .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , well we 've {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's true for the additive noise , y artificially added noise we 've always used small vocabulary too . But for n there 's been noisy speech this larv large vocabulary that we 've worked with in Broadcast News . So we we did the Broadcast News evaluation", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and some of the focus conditions were noisy and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It had additive n", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But we {disfmarker} but we didn't do spectral subtraction . We were doing our funny stuff , right ? We were doing multi multi uh , multi - stream and {disfmarker} and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But it , you know , we di stuff we did helped . I mean it , did something .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Um , now we have this um , meeting data . You know , like the stuff we 're {comment} recording right now ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and uh , that we have uh , for the {disfmarker} uh , the quote - unquote noisy data there is just {disfmarker} noisy and reverberant actually . It 's the far field mike . And uh , we have uh , the digits that we do at the end of these things . And that 's what most o again , most of our work has been done with that , with {disfmarker} with uh , connected digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , but uh , we have recognition now with some of the continuous speech , large vocabulary continuous speech , using Switchboard {disfmarker} uh , Switchboard recognizer ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh , no training , {vocalsound} from this , just {disfmarker} just plain using the Switchboard .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . You just take the Switchboard trained {disfmarker} ? Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . Now there are some adaptation though ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah . That 's cool .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "that {disfmarker} that uh , Andreas has been playing with ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but we 're hop uh , actually uh , Dave and I were just talking earlier today about maybe at some point not that distant future , trying some of the techniques that we 've talked about on , uh , some of the large vocabulary data . Um , I mean , I guess no one had done {disfmarker} yet done test one on the distant mike using uh , the SRI recognizer and , uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} not that I know of .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Yeah , cuz everybody 's scared .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 'll see a little smoke coming up from the {disfmarker} the CPU or something {vocalsound} trying to {disfmarker} trying to do it ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That 's right", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but uh , yeah . But , you 're right that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's a real good point , that uh , we {disfmarker} we don't know yeah , uh , I mean , what if any of these ta I guess that 's why they 're pushing that in the uh {disfmarker} in the evaluation .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , But um , Good . OK . Anything else going on ? at you guys ' end ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't have good result , with the {disfmarker} inc including the new parameters ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't have good result . Are {pause} similar or a little bit worse .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "With what {disfmarker} what other new p new parameter ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 're talking about your voicing ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So maybe {disfmarker} You probably need to back up a bit", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "seeing as how Sunil ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I tried to include another new parameter to the traditional parameter ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "the coe the cepstrum coefficient ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "that , like , the auto - correlation , the R - zero and R - one over R - zero", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and another estimation of the var the variance of the difference for {disfmarker} of the spec si uh , spectrum of the signal and {disfmarker} and the spectrum of time after filt mel filter bank .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I 'm so sorry . I didn't get it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Nuh . Well . Anyway . The {disfmarker} First you have the sp the spectrum of the signal ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and you have the {disfmarker} on the other side you have the output of the mel filter bank .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You can extend the coefficient of the mel filter bank and obtain an approximation of the spectrum of the signal .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mmm . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I do the difference {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I found a difference at the variance of this different", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "because , suppose we {disfmarker} we think that if the variance is high , maybe you have n uh , noise .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if the variance is small , maybe you have uh , speech .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "To {disfmarker} to To {disfmarker} The idea is to found another feature for discriminate between voice sound and unvoice sound .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And we try to use this new feature {disfmarker} feature . And I did experiment {disfmarker} I need to change {disfmarker} to obtain this new feature I need to change the size {disfmarker} the window size {disfmarker} size . of the a of the {disfmarker} analysis window size , to have more information .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Make it longer .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , sixty - two point five milliseconds I think .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And I do {disfmarker} I did two type of experiment to include this feature directly with the {disfmarker} with the other feature and to train a neural network to select it voice - unvoice - silence {disfmarker} silence", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Unvoiced . Well .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and to {disfmarker} to concat this new feature . But the result are n with the neural network I have more or less the same result .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "As using just the cepstrum ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Result .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . It 's neve e e sometime it 's worse , sometime it 's a little bit better , but not significantly .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh , is it with TI - digits , or with {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} No , I work with eh , Italian and Spanish basically .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And if I don't y use the neural network , and use directly the feature the results are worse .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But Doesn't help .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I really wonder though .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean we 've had these discussions before , and {disfmarker} and one of the things that struck me was that {disfmarker} uh , about this line of thought that was particularly interesting to me was that we um {disfmarker} whenever you condense things , uh , in an irreversible way , um , you throw away some information . And , that 's mostly viewed on as a good thing , in the way we use it , because we wanna suppress things that will cause variability for uh particular , uh , phonetic units . Um , but , you 'll do throw something away . And so the question is , uh , can we figure out if there 's something we 've thrown away that we shouldn't have . And um . So , when they were looking at the difference between the filter bank and the FFT that was going into the filter bank , I was thinking \" oh , OK , so they 're picking on something they 're looking on it to figure out noise , or voice {disfmarker} voiced property whatever . \" So that {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Maybe that helps to drive the {disfmarker} the thought process of coming up with the features . But for me sort of the interesting thing was , \" well , but is there just something in that difference which is useful ? \" So another way of doing it , maybe , would be just to take the FFT uh , power spectrum , and feed it into a neural network ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "To know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and then use it , you know , in combination , or alone , or {disfmarker} or whatever", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Wi - with what targets ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Voiced , unvoiced is like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , no .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . Or anything .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No the {disfmarker} just the same {disfmarker} same way we 're using {disfmarker} I mean , the same way that we 're using the filter bank .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Phones .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Exact way {disfmarker} the same way we 're using the filter bank .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , the filter bank is good for all the reasons that we say it 's good . But it 's different . And , you know , maybe if it 's used in combination , it will get at something that we 're missing . And maybe , you know , using , orth you know , KLT , or uh , um , adding probabilities , I mean , all th all the different ways that we 've been playing with , that we would let the {disfmarker} essentially let the neural network determine what is it that 's useful , that we 're missing here .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but there is so much variability in the power spectrum .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , that 's probably why y i it would be unlikely to work as well by itself , but it might help in combination .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I have to tell you , I can't remember the conference , but , uh , I think it 's about ten years ago , I remember going to one of the speech conferences and {disfmarker} and uh , I saw within very short distance of one another a couple different posters that showed about the wonders of some auditory inspired front - end or something , and a couple posters away it was somebody who compared one to uh , just putting in the FFT and the FFT did slightly better . So I mean the {disfmarker} i i It 's true there 's lots of variability ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but again we have these wonderful statistical mechanisms for quantifying that a that variability , and you know , doing something reasonable with it .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , um , uh , It - it 's same , you know , argument that 's gone both ways about uh , you know , we have these data driven filters , in LDA , and on the other hand , if it 's data driven it means it 's driven by things that have lots of variability , and that are necessarily {disfmarker} not necessarily gonna be the same in training and test , so , in some ways it 's good to have data driven things , and in some ways it 's bad to have data driven things . So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , d", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "part of what we 're discovering , is ways to combine things that are data driven than are not .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , so anyway , it 's just a thought , that {disfmarker} that if we {disfmarker} if we had that {disfmarker} maybe it 's just a baseline uh , which would show us \" well , what are we really getting out of the filters \" , or maybe i i probably not by itself , but in combination , uh ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you know , maybe there 's something to be gained from it , and let the {disfmarker} But , you know , y you 've only worked with us for a short time , maybe in a year or two you w you will actually come up with the right set of things to extract from this information . But , maybe the neural net and the H M Ms could figure it out quicker than you .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "It 's just a thought .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I can {disfmarker} I will try to do that .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one um p one thing is like what {disfmarker} before we started using this VAD in this Aurora , the {disfmarker} th what we did was like , I {disfmarker} I guess most of you know about this , adding this additional speech - silence bit to the cepstrum and training the HMM on that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "That is just a binary feature and that seems to be {vocalsound} improving a lot on the SpeechDat - Car where there is a lot of noise but not much on the TI - digits . So , a adding an additional feature to distin to discriminate between speech and nonspeech was helping . That 's it .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wait {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , we actually added an additional binary feature to the cepstrum , just the baseline .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You did some experiment .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Well , in {disfmarker} in the case of TI - digits it didn't actually give us anything , because there wasn't any f anything to discriminate between speech ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and it was very short . But Italian was like very {disfmarker} it was a huge improvement on Italian .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Well {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . But anyway the question is even more , is within speech , can we get some features ? Are we drop dropping information that can might be useful within speech ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean . To {disfmarker} maybe to distinguish between voice sound and unvoiced sounds ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And it 's particularly more relevant now since we 're gonna be given the endpoints .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . So .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "There was a paper in ICASSP {disfmarker} this ICASSP {disfmarker} over the uh extracting some higher - order uh , information from the cepstral coefficients and I forgot the name . Some is some harmonics I don't know , I can {disfmarker} I can pull that paper out from ICASSP . It {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Talking cumulants or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Huh ? Uh , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cumulants or something .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I don't remember .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} No .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It wa it was taking the , um {disfmarker} It was about finding the higher - order moments of {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "And I 'm not sure about whether it is the higher - order moments , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "cumulants , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "maybe higher - order cumulants", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Yeah . It was {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Or m e", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , he was showing up uh some {disfmarker} something on noisy speech ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "some improvement on the noisy speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Some small vocabulary tasks .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So it was on PLP derived cepstral coefficients .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but again {disfmarker} You could argue that th that 's exactly what the neural network does .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So n neural network uh , is in some sense equivalent to computing , you know , higher - order moments of what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "trying to f to Moments , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah . So . I mean , it doesn't do it very specifically ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and pretty {disfmarker} you know . But .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , anything on your end you want to talk about ? Uh .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , nothing I wanna really talk about . I can {disfmarker} I can just uh , um , share a little bit {disfmarker} Sunil hasn't {disfmarker} hasn't heard about uh , what I 've been doing .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , so , um , I told you I was {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was getting prepared to take this qualifier exam . So basically that 's just , um , trying to propose um , uh , your next your {disfmarker} your following years of {disfmarker} of your PHD work , trying {disfmarker} trying to find a project to {disfmarker} to define and {disfmarker} and to work on . So , I 've been , uh , looking into , um , doing something about r uh , speech recognition using acoustic events . So , um , the idea is you have all these {disfmarker} these different events , for example voicing , nasality , R - coloring , you know burst or noise , uh , frication , that kinda stuff , um , building robust um , primary detectors for these acoustic events , and using the outputs of these robust detectors to do speech recognition . Um , and , um , these {disfmarker} these primary detectors , um , will be , uh , inspired by , you know , multi - band techniques , um , doing things , um , similar to Larry Saul 's work on , uh , graphical models to {disfmarker} to detect these {disfmarker} these , uh , acoustic events . And , um , so I {disfmarker} I been {disfmarker} I been thinking about that and some of the issues that I 've been running into are , um , exactly what {disfmarker} what kind of acoustic events I need , what {disfmarker} um , what acoustic events will provide a {disfmarker} a good enough coverage to {disfmarker} in order to do the later recognition steps . And , also , um , once I decide a set of acoustic events , um , h how do I {disfmarker} how do I get labels ? Training data for {disfmarker} for these acoustic events . And , then later on down the line , I can start playing with the {disfmarker} the models themselves , the {disfmarker} the primary detectors . Um , so , um , I kinda see {disfmarker} like , after {disfmarker} after building the primary detectors I see um , myself taking the outputs and feeding them in , sorta tandem style into {disfmarker} into a um , Gaussian mixtures HMM back - end , um , and doing recognition . Um . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's just generally what I 've been looking at .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "By {disfmarker} by the way , uh , the voiced - unvoiced version of that for instance could tie right in to what Carmen was looking at .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you know , um , if you {disfmarker} if a multi - band approach was helpful as {disfmarker} as I think it is , it seems to be helpful for determining voiced - unvoiced ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "that one might be another thing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . Um , were {disfmarker} were you gonna say something ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh . It looked {disfmarker} OK , never mind . Um , yeah . And so , this {disfmarker} this past week um , I 've been uh , looking a little bit into uh , TRAPS um , and doing {disfmarker} doing TRAPS on {disfmarker} on these e events too , just , um , seeing {disfmarker} seeing if that 's possible . Uh , and um , other than that , uh , I was kicked out of I - house for living there for four years .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Oh no . So you live in a cardboard box in the street now", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "or , no ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , well , s s som something like that .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "In Albany , yeah . Yeah . And uh . Yep . That 's it .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Suni - i d ' you v did uh {disfmarker} did you find a place ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , no", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is that out of the way ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "not yet . Uh , yesterday I called up a lady who ha who will have a vacant room from May thirtieth and she said she 's interviewing two more people . So . And she would get back to me on Monday . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's only thing I have and Diane has a few more houses . She 's going to take some pictures and send me after I go back . So it 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh . So you 're not down here permanently yet ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "No . I 'm going back to OGI today .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Ah ! Oh , OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "OK . And then , you 're coming back uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Uh , i I mean , I {disfmarker} I p I plan to be here on thirty - first .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Thirty - first ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , well if there 's a house available or place to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Thirty - first .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Well , I mean i i if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I hope .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "They 're available , and they 'll be able to get you something , so worst comes to worst we 'll put you up in a hotel for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a while", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . So , in that case , I 'm going to be here on thirty - first definitely .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "until you {disfmarker} OK .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You know , if you 're in a desperate situation and you need a place to stay , you could stay with me for a while . I 've got a spare bedroom right now .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh . OK . Thanks . That sure is nice of you . So , it may be he needs more than me .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh r oh . Oh no , no . My {disfmarker} my cardboard box is actually a nice spacious two bedroom apartment .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "So a two bedroom cardboard box . Th - that 's great .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Thanks Dave .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "yeah", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Do y wanna say anything about {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you actually been {disfmarker} Uh , last week you were doing this stuff with Pierre , you were {disfmarker} you were mentioning . Is that {disfmarker} that something worth talking about , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , it 's {disfmarker} Well , um , it {disfmarker} I don't think it directly relates . Um , well , so , I was helping a speech researcher named Pierre Divenyi and he 's int He wanted to um , look at um , how people respond to formant changes , I think . Um . So he {disfmarker} he created a lot of synthetic audio files of vowel - to - vowel transitions , and then he wanted a psycho - acoustic um , spectrum . And he wanted to look at um , how the energy is moving {pause} over time in that spectrum and compare that to the {disfmarker} to the listener tests . And , um . So , I gave him a PLP spectrum . And {disfmarker} to um {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he t wanted to track the peaks so he could look at how they 're moving . So I took the um , PLP LPC coefficients and um , I found the roots . This was something that Stephane suggested . I found the roots of the um , LPC polynomial to , um , track the peaks in the , um , PLP LPC spectra .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "well there is aligned spectral pairs , is like the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} Is that the aligned s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's a r root LPC , uh , of some sort .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , no .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So you just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "instead of the log you took the root square , I mean cubic root or something . What di w I didn't get that .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No , no . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's taking the {disfmarker} finding the roots of the LPC polynomial .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Polynomial . Yeah . Is that the line spectral {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's like line spectral pairs .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's like line sp", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Except I think what they call line spectral pairs they push it towards the unit circle , don't they ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "to sort of ? But it {disfmarker} But uh , you know . But what we 'd used to do w when I did synthesis at National Semiconductor twenty years ago , the technique we were playing with initially was {disfmarker} was taking the LPC polynomial and {disfmarker} and uh , finding the roots . It wasn't PLP cuz Hynek hadn't invented it yet , but it was just LPC , and uh , we found the roots of the polynomial , And th When you do that , sometimes they 're f they 're what most people call formants , sometimes they 're not .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} Formant tracking with it can be a little tricky cuz you get these funny {vocalsound} values in {disfmarker} in real speech ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "So you just {disfmarker} You typically just get a few roots ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "but .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You know , two or three ,", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Well you get these complex pairs .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "something like that ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "And it depends on the order that you 're doing , but .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So , um , if {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Every root that 's {disfmarker} Since it 's a real signal , the LPC polynomial 's gonna have real coefficients . So I think that means that every root that is not a real root {comment} is gonna be a c complex pair ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "um , of a complex value and its conjugate . Um . So for each {disfmarker} And if you look at that on the unit circle , um , one of these {disfmarker} one of the members of the pair will be a positive frequency , one will be a negative frequency , I think . So I just {disfmarker} So , um , f for the {disfmarker} I 'm using an eighth - order polynomial and I 'll get three or four of these pairs", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "which give me s which gives me three or four peak positions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This is from synthetic speech , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So if it 's from synthetic speech then maybe it 'll be cleaner . I mean for real speech in real {disfmarker} then what you end up having is , like I say , funny little things that are {disfmarker} don't exactly fit your notion of formants all that well .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "How did {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but mostly they are .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mostly they do .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and what {disfmarker} I mean in {disfmarker} in what we were doing , which was not so much looking at things , it was OK", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "because it was just a question of quantization . Uh , we were just you know , storing {disfmarker} It was {disfmarker} We were doing , uh , stored speech , uh , quantization .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but uh , in your case um , you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Actually you have peaks that are not at the formant 's positions , but they are lower in energy", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} there 's some of that , yes .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} Well they are much lower .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "If this is synthetic speech can't you just get the formants directly ? I mean h how is the speech created ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "It was created from a synthesizer , and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Wasn't a formant synthesizer was it ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I bet it {disfmarker} it might have {disfmarker} may have been", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} d d this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but maybe he didn't have control over it or something ?", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "In {disfmarker} in fact w we {disfmarker} we could get , um , formant frequencies out of the synthesizer , as well . And , um , w one thing that the , um , LPC approach will hopefully give me in addition , um , is that I {disfmarker} I might be able to find the b the bandwidths of these humps as well . Um , Stephane suggested looking at each complex pair as a {disfmarker} like a se second - order IIR filter .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Um , but I don't think there 's a g a really good reason not to um , get the formant frequencies from the synthesizer instead . Except that you don't have the psycho - acoustic modeling in that .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , so the actual {disfmarker} So you 're not getting the actual formants per se . You 're getting the {disfmarker} Again , you 're getting sort of the , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You 're getting something that is {disfmarker} is uh , af strongly affected by the PLP model . And so it 's more psycho - acoustic . So it 's a little {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} It 's sort of {disfmarker} sort of a different thing .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . That 's sort of the point .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . i Ordinarily , in a formant synthesizer , the bandwidths as well as the ban uh , formant centers are {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "I mean , that 's {disfmarker} Somewhere in the synthesizer that was put in , as {disfmarker} as what you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but yeah , you view each complex pair as essentially a second - order section , which has , uh , band center and band width , and um , um {disfmarker} But . Yeah . O K . So , uh , yeah , you 're going back today and then back in a week I guess ,", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and . Yeah . Great ! Well , welcome .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess we should do digits quickly .", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I almost forgot that .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "Digits .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I almost forgot our daily digits .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "You wanna go ahead ?", "speaker": "PhD F" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD F" } ]

[ { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So are you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Are we going ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It is uh , must be February fifteenth .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yu I think the date 's written in there , yep . And actually if everyone could cross out the R - nine next to \" Session \" , and write MR eleven .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We didn't have a front - end meeting today .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And let 's remember also to make sure that one 's {comment} gets marked as unread , unused .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "MR eleven .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "MR eleven .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That sounds like a spy code .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mmm . OK . So .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There 's lots of clicking I 'm sure as I 'm trying to get this to work {pause} correctly .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Agenda . Any agenda items today ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I wanna talk a little bit about getting {disfmarker} how we 're gonna to get people to edit bleeps , parts of the meeting that they don't want to include . What I 've done so far , and I wanna get some opinions on , how to {disfmarker} how to finish it up .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I wanna ask about um , some aud audio monitoring on some of the {pause} um {pause} well some of the equipment . In particular , the {disfmarker} well uh , that 's just what I wanna ask .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK audio monitoring , Jane .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Ba - based on some of the tran uh {disfmarker} i In listening to {pause} some of these meetings that have already been recorded there are sometimes big spikes on particular things , and in pact {disfmarker} in fact this one I 'm talking on is one of {disfmarker} of the ones that showed up in one of the meetings ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh really .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "\" Spikes \" , you mean like uh , instantaneous click type spikes , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Spikes ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Clicks .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And I don't know what the e electronics is but .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well , I think it 's", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Touching .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh , it {disfmarker} it could be a number of things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It could be touching and fiddling , and the other thing is that it could {disfmarker} the fact that it 's on a wired mike is suspicious . It might be a connector .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , OK . Well maybe {disfmarker} Then we don't really have to talk about that as an {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You could try an experiment and say \" OK , I 'm about to test for spikes \" ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I take that off the agenda .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "and then wiggle the thing there , and then go and when they go to transcribe it , it could , ask them to come and get you .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Come get me when you transcribe this and see if there 's spikes . \"", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Oh that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "No I 'm just {disfmarker} ", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean , were this a professional audio recording , {vocalsound} what we would do {disfmarker} {comment} what you would do is {disfmarker} in testing it is , you would actually do all this wiggling and make sure that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that things are not giving that kind of performance . And if they are , then they can't be used .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . Um . Let 's see . I guess {pause} I would like to have a discussion about you know where we are on uh , recording , transcription you know , basically you know where we are on the corpus .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And then um , the other thing which I would like to talk about which is a real meta - quest , I think , deal is , uh , agendas . So maybe I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll start with that actually . Uh , um . {vocalsound} Andreas brought up the fact that he would kinda like to know , if possible , what we were gonna be talking about because he 's sort of peripherally involved to this point , and if there 's gonna be a topic about {disfmarker} discussion about something that he uh strongly cares about then he would come and {disfmarker} And I think part of {disfmarker} part of his motivation with this is that he 's trying to help us out , in the {disfmarker} because of uh the fact that the meetings are {disfmarker} are tending to become reasonably large now on days when everybody shows up and so , he figures he could help that out by not showing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and I 'm sure help out his own time . by not showing up if it 's a meeting that he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} So , uh in order {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} I think that this is a wish on his part . Uh . It 's actually gonna be hard because it seems like a lot of times uh things come up that are unanticipated and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But um , we could try anyway , uh , do another try at coming up with the agenda uh , at some point before the meeting , uh , say the day before .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well maybe it would be a good idea for one of us to {pause} like on Wednesday , or Tuesday send out a reminder for people to send in agenda items .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK . You {disfmarker} you wanna volunteer to do that ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Alright so we 'll send out agenda request .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Let me", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} I think that 'll help {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I 'll put that on my spare brain or it will not {pause} get done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 'll help a lot , actually .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have to tell you for the uh {disfmarker} for the admin meeting that we have , Lila does that um every time before an admin meeting . And uh , she ends up getting the agenda requests uh , uh ten minutes before the meeting . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} {comment} But . Uh . {comment} But we can try . Maybe it 'll work .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe . Weirder things have happened .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm wondering if he were to just , uh , specify particular topics , I mean . Maybe we 'd be able to meet that request of his a little more .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I would {disfmarker} I would also guess that as we get more into processing the data and things like that there 'll be more things of interest to him .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Actually it {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this maybe brings up another topic which is um {disfmarker} So we 're done with that topic . The other topic I was thinking of was the sta status on microphones and channels , and all that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , actually I {disfmarker} I was going to say we need to {pause} talk about that too .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Why {disfmarker} why don't we do that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK . Um , the new microphones , the two new ones are in . Um . {pause} And they are being assembled as we speak , I hope . And I didn't bring my car today so I 'm gonna pick them up tomorrow . Um , and then the other question I was thinking about is {disfmarker} well , a couple things . First of all , if the other headsets are a lot more comfortable , we should probably just go ahead and get them . So we 'll have to evaluate that when they come in ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and get people 's opinions on {disfmarker} on what they think of them . Um , then the other question I had is maybe we should get another wireless . Another wireless setup . I mean it 's expensive , but it does seem to be {pause} better than the wired .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So how many channels do you get to have in a wireless setup ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , well , I 'm pretty sure that you can daisy - chain them together so what we would do is replace the wired mikes with wireless . So we currently have one base station with six wireless mike , possibility of six wireless receivers , and apparently you can chain those together . And so we could replace our wired mikes with wireless if we bought another base station and more wireless mikes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So , you know it 's still , it 's fifteen minus six .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So let 's see we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right ? So we could have up to nine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And right now we can have up to six .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right . And we have five , we 're getting one more .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And it 's um , about nine hundred dollars for the base station , and then eight hundred per channel .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh . So yeah so the only {disfmarker} Beyond the mike {disfmarker} the cost of the mikes the only thing is the base station that 's nine hundred dollars .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , we should do it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK . OK , so I 'll look into how you daisy - chain them and {disfmarker} and then just go ahead and order them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't quite understand how that {disfmarker} how that works , . If {disfmarker} So we 're not increasing the number of channels . OK .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "No , we 're just replacing the wired {disfmarker} the two wired that are still working ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . I see .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "along with a couple of the wired that aren't working , one of the wired that 's not working , with a wireless .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Three wireds work ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Basically we found {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I guess three wireds work , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we 've had more problems with that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And that sort of bypasses the whole {disfmarker} the whole Jimbox thing and all that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so um , we {disfmarker} we seem to have uh , a reliable way of getting the data in , which is through the ra Sony radio mikes , as long as we 're conscious about the batteries .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That seems to be the key issue .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Everyone 's battery OK ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I checked them this morning , they should be .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , {vocalsound} That 's the only thing with them . But the quality seems really good and {disfmarker} Um I heard from UW that they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh very close to getting their , uh setup purchased . They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're buying something that you can just sort of buy off the shelf .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well we should talk to them about it because I know that SRI is also in the process of looking at stuff , and so , you know , what we should try to keep everyone {disfmarker} on the same page with that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "SRI , really ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "They got sa apparent Well , Maybe {pause} this needs to be bleeped out ? I have no clue .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know how much of it 's public .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Probably we shouldn't {disfmarker} probably we shouldn't talk about funding stuff .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . But anyway there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's uh , uh other activities that are going on there and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} and NIST and UW . So . Um . But {disfmarker} but yeah I thin I think that at least the message we can tell other people is that our experience is {disfmarker} is quite positive with the Sony ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "uh , radio - mikes . Now the one thing that you have said that actually concerns me a little is you 're talking about changing the headsets meaning changing the connector , which means some hand - soldering or something , right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , no , we 're having the {disfmarker} them do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So it 's so hand - soldering it , but I 'm not doing it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , they {disfmarker} they charge", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Nothing against you and your hand - soldering", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You 've never seen my hand - soldering . But uh , a as I said they 're coming in .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , so that 's being done professionally and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "As professionally as I guess you can get it done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , it could {disfmarker} if they do a lot of it , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean i it 's just their repair shop . Right ? Their maintenance people .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , we 'll see what it {disfmarker} it 's like .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} tha that can be quite good . Th - this {disfmarker} Yeah , OK . Good . Yeah . So let 's go with that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And , I mean we 'll see , tomorrow , you know , what it looks like .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , Yeah . So , um , uh , Dave isn't here but he was going to start working on some things with the digits . Uh , so he 'll be interested in what 's going on with that . I guess {disfmarker} Was {disfmarker} the decision last time was that the {disfmarker} the uh transcribers were going to be doing stuff with the digits as well ? Has that started , or is that {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah . Uh , it would be to use his interface and I was going to meet with him today about that .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right , so , the decision was that Jane did not want the transcribers to be doing any of the paperwork . So I did the {disfmarker} all that last week . So all the {disfmarker} all the forms are now {pause} on the computer . And uh , then I have a bunch of scripts that we 'll read those and let the uh {pause} transcribers use different tools . And I just want to talk to Jane about how we transition to using those .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So he has a nice set up that they {disfmarker} it w it will be efficient for them to do that .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think it 'll take too long .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So anyway {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , you know , just uh , a matter of a few days I suspect .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So anyway I think we {disfmarker} we have at least one uh , user for the digits once they get done , which will be Dave .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right . I 've already done five or six {pause} sets .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So if he wanted to , you know , just have a few to start with , he could . You know , and I also have a bunch of scripts that will , like , generate P - files and run recognition on them also .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , he might {disfmarker} he might be asking {disfmarker} Right . OK . Uh , is Dave {disfmarker} I don't know if Dave is on the list , if he 's invited to these meetings , uh if he knows .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't tend to get an invitation myself for them even .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , we don't have a active one but I 'll make sure he 's on the list .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Should we call him ? I mean is he {disfmarker} d is he definitely not available today ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Should I call his office and see ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "He was in .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean , he 's still taking classes , so uh , he may well have conflicts .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , well i it 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , he was in {pause} s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He wasn't there at cof", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so this might be a conflict for him .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK . Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah didn't he say his signal - processing class was like {pause} Tuesdays and Thursdays ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I think he has a class . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . He might have .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Oh well , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You talking about David Gelbart ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think he 's taking two twenty - five A which is now .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK . So , that 's why we 're not seeing him . OK . Uh , transcriptions , uh , beyond the digits , where we are , and so on .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the recordings also ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "just where we are . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , so um , should we {disfmarker} we don't wan wanna do the recording status first , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well , we have about thirty - two hours uh as of , I guess a week and a half ago , so we probably now have about thirty - five hours .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh {disfmarker} How much of that is digits ? It 's uh {disfmarker} that 's including digits ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's including digits .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I haven't separated it out so I have no clue how much of that is digits .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . So anyway there 's at least probably thirty hours , or something of {disfmarker} There 's got to be more than thirty hour {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Of {disfmarker} of non - digits ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "i it couldn't {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} Of non - digits .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , absolutely . I mean , the digits don't take up that much time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK , and the transcribers h I , uh , don't have the exact numbers , but I {pause} think it would come to about eleven hours that are finished uh , transcribing from them right now . The next step is to {disfmarker} that I 'm working on is to insure that the data are clean first , and then channelized . What I mean by clean is that they 're spell - checked , that the mark - up is consistent all the way throughout , and also that we now incorporate these additional conventions that uh , Liz requested in terms of um , um {pause} in terms of having a s a systematic handling of numbers , and acronyms which I hadn't been specific about . Um , for example , i they 'll say uh \" ninety - two \" . And you know , so how {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Nine two ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "e Exactly .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So if you just say \" nine two \" , the {disfmarker} there are many s ways that could have been expressed . An - and I just had them {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , a certain number of them did put the words down , but now we have a convention which also involves having it followed by , um , a gloss th and things .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You know , Jane ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , one suggestion and you may already be doing this , but I 've noticed in the past that when I 've gone through transcriptions and you know in {disfmarker} in order to build lexicons and things , if you um , just take all the transcriptions and separate them into words and then alphabetize them , {comment} a lot of times just scanning down that list you 'll find a lot of {pause} inconsistencies and mis", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Misspelled .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 're talking about the type token frequency listings , and I use those too . Y you mean just uh {pause} on each {disfmarker} on each line there 's a one word right ? It 's one token from the {disfmarker} from the corpus .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , those are e extremely efficient and I and I {disfmarker} I agree that 's a very good use of it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh so you already have that , OK .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well that 's {disfmarker} that 's a way {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} You know , the spell - check basically does that but {disfmarker} but in addition {disfmarker} yes , that 's {disfmarker} that 's exactly the strategy I wanna do in terms of locating these things which are you know colloquial spoken forms which aren't in the lexicon .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Cuz a lot of times they 'll appear next to each other , and uh ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Exactly . And then you ca then you can do a s", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "i in alphabetized lists , they 'll appear next to each other and {disfmarker} and so it makes it easier .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Absolutely . I agree . That 's a very good {disfmarker} that 's a very good uh , suggestion . And that was {disfmarker} that 's my strategy for handling a lot of these things , in terms of things that need to be glossed . I didn't get to that point but {disfmarker} So there are numbers , then there are acronyms , and then um , there 's a {disfmarker} he she wants the uh , actually a {disfmarker} an explicit marker of what type of comment this is , so i curly b inside the curly brackets I 'm gonna put either \" VOC \" for vocalized , like cough or like laugh or whatever , \" NONVOC \" for door - slam , and \" GLOSS \" for things that have to do with {disfmarker} if they said a s a spoken form with this {disfmarker} m this pronunciation error .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I already had that convention", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh that 's great .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "but I {disfmarker} I haven't been asking these people to do it systematically cuz I think it most {disfmarker} ha most efficiently handled by uh {disfmarker} by a {disfmarker} a filter . That was what I was always planing on . So that , you know you get a whole long list {disfmarker} exactly what you 're saying , you get a whole list of things that say \" curly bracket laugh curly bracket \" ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "then y you know it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you risk less error if you handle it by a filter , than if you have this transcriber ch laboriously typing in sort of a VOC space ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "so man So many ways that error prone .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So , um , {vocalsound} um I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm going to convert that via a filter , into these tagged uh , subcategorized comments , and same thing with you know , we see you get a subset when you do what you 're saying ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "you end up with a s with uh , you 're collapsing across a frequency you just have the tokens", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and you can um , have a filter which more efficiently makes those changes . But the numbers and acronyms have to be handled by hand , because , you know I mean , jus", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You don't know what they could be .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah now TIMIT 's clear um {pause} and PLP is clear but uh there are things that are not so well known , in {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or have variant {disfmarker} u u uses like the numbers you can say \" nine two \" or you can say \" ninety - two \" ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So how are you doing the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and uh I 'd handle the numbers individually .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "How are you doing the uh , acronyms so if I say PZM what would it appear on the transcript ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It would be separate {disfmarker} The letters would be separated in space", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and potentially they 'll have a curly bracket thing afterwards e but I 'm not sure if that 's necessary , clarifying what it is ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so gloss of {pause} whatever .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know if that 's really necessary to do that . Maybe it 's a nice thing to do because of it then indicating this is uh , a step away from i indicating that it really is intentional that those spaces are there , and indicating why they 're there to indicate that it 's uh {vocalsound} the you know , {comment} uh enumerated , or i", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "it 's not a good way of saying {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} it 's the {vocalsound} specific uh way of stating these {disfmarker} these letters .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right . So it sounds good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so anyway , the clean {disfmarker} those are those things and then channelized is to then um , get it into this multichannel format . And at that point then it 's ready for use by Liz and Don . But that 's been my top priority {disfmarker} beyond getting it tanel channelized , the next step is to work on tightening up the boundaries of the time bins .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And uh , Thilo had a {disfmarker} e e a breakthrough with this {disfmarker} this last week in terms of getting the channel - based um uh s s speech - nonspeech segmentation um , up and running and I haven't {disfmarker} I haven't been able to use that yet cuz I 'm working s re this is my top priority {disfmarker} get the data clean , and channelized .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I actually gave", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Have you also been doing spot checks , Jane ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Okay , good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well you see that 's part of the cleaning process . I spent um actually um I have a segment of ten minutes that was transcribed by two of our transcribers ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh good . Good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and I went through it last night , it 's {disfmarker} it 's almost spooky how similar these are , word for word . And there are some differences in commas cuz commas I {disfmarker} I left them discretion at commas .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} and so because it 's not part of our st of our ne needed conventions .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And um , and {disfmarker} so they 'll be a difference in commas , but it 's word - by - word the same , in {disfmarker} in huge patches of the data . And I have t ten minute stretch where I can {disfmarker} where I can show that . And {disfmarker} and sometimes it turns out that one of these transcribers has a better ear for technical jargon , and the other one has a better ear for colloquial speech . So um , the one i i the colloquial speech person picked up \" gobbledy - gook \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And the other one didn't . And on this side , this one 's picking up things like \" neural nets \" and the one that 's good on the sp o on th the vocabulary on the uh colloquial didn't .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "When {disfmarker} for the person who missed \" gobbledy - gook \" what did they put ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "It was an interesting approximation , put in parentheses , cuz I have this convention that , i if they 're not sure what it was , they put it in parentheses .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So they tried to approximate it , but it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh good .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "it was spelled GABBL {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Sort of how it sounds . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yes . More of an attempt to {disfmarker} I mean apparently it was very clear to her that these {disfmarker} the a this {disfmarker} this was a sound {disfmarker} these are the sounds ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "It was a technical term that she didn't recognize ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . But she knew that she didn't know it . Maybe it was a technical ter exactly . But she {disfmarker} even though her technical perception is just really {disfmarker} uh you know I 've {disfmarker} I 'm tempted to ask her if she 's taken any courses in this area or if she 's taken cognitive science courses", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "then cuz \" neural nets \" and {disfmarker} oh she has some things that are {disfmarker} oh \" downsampled \" , she got that right .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And some of these are rather {pause} uh unexpected .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Obscure , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But ch ten solid uh {disfmarker} m ch s chunk of ten solid minutes where they both coded the same data .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and again the main track that you 're working with is elev eleven hours ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Is that right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yes exactly .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And that 's part of this {disfmarker} Eleven hours .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Is that {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} that including digits ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yes it is .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So let 's say roughly {pause} ten hours or so of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean it 's probably more than that but {disfmarker} but with {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of non - digits .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 'd be more than that because I {disfmarker} my recollection is the minutes {disfmarker} that da digits don't take more than half a minute . Per person .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But um {pause} the {disfmarker} the total set that I gave them is twelve hours of tape ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , I see .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But they haven't gotten to the end of that yet .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , I see .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So they 're still working {disfmarker} some of them are {disfmarker} Two of them are still working on completing that . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Boy , they 're moving right along .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . They are . Mm - hmm . They 're very efficient . There 're some who have more hours that they devote to it than others .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what 's the deal with {disfmarker} with your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The channel u thing ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's just uh , I ran the recognizer {disfmarker} uh , the {pause} {comment} speech - nonspeech detector on different channels and , it 's just in uh {disfmarker} in this new multi - channel format and output , and I just gave one {disfmarker} one meeting to {disfmarker} to Liz who wanted to {disfmarker} to try it for {disfmarker} for the recognizer", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , I see .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "as uh , apparently the recognizer had problems with those long chunks of speech , which took too much memory or whatever ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and so {pause} she {disfmarker} she will try that I think", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm working on it . So , I hope {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is this anything different than the HMM system you were using before ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No . Uh , I {pause} mmm , use some {disfmarker} some different features but not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The basic thing is this HMM base .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So there 's still no {disfmarker} no knowledge using different channels at the same time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There is some , uh as the energy is normalized across channels", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You know what I mean ? Across all of them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . But basically that 's one of the main changes .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . What are some of the other features ? Besides the energy ? You said you 're trying some different features , or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh I just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mmm , I just use um our loudness - based things now as they {disfmarker} before there were {disfmarker} they were some in {disfmarker} in the log domain and I {disfmarker} I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cu - Cube root ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . To {disfmarker} No , I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker} to the loudness thingy with the {disfmarker} with the", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "how do you call it ? I 'm not sure . With the , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Fletcher Munson ? No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm not sure about the term .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , I 'll look it up . And say it to you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , alright .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , and {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} that 's basically the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing . Yeah , and I {disfmarker} and I tried t to normalize uh {disfmarker} uh the features , there 's loudness and modified loudness , um , within one channel ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "because they 're , {vocalsound} yeah to {disfmarker} to be able to distinguish between foreground and background speech . And it works quite well . But , not always .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , let 's see . I think the uh {disfmarker} Were {disfmarker} were you basically done with the transcription part ? So I guess the next thing is this uh {disfmarker} bleep editing .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} The idea is that we need to have {disfmarker} We need to provide the transcripts to every participant of every meeting to give them an opportunity to bleep out sections they don't want . So I 've written a bunch of tools that will generate web pages , uh with the transcription in it so that they can click on them and piece {disfmarker} pieces and they can scroll through and read them , and then they can check on each one if they want it excluded . And then , it 's a form , HTML form , so they can submit it and it will end up sending me email with the times that they want excluded . And so , uh , some of the questions on this is what do we do about the privacy issue . And so I thought about this a little bit and I think the best way to do it is every participant will have a password ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "a single password . Each person will have a single password , user name and password . And then each meeting , we 'll only allow the participants who were at that meeting to look at it . And that way each person only has to remember one password .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I can't help but wonder if this is maybe a little more elaborate than is needed . I mean if people have {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , for me I would actually want to have some pieces of paper that had the transcription and I would sort of flip through it . And then {pause} um {pause} if I thought it was OK , I 'd say \" it 's OK \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And , I {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean it depends how this really ends up working out , but I guess my thought was that the occasion of somebody wondering whether something was OK or not and needing to listen to it was gonna be extremely rare .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right , I mean so th th th the fact that you could listen to it over the web is a minor thing that I had already done for {pause} other reasons .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And so that {disfmarker} that 's a minor part of it , I just wanted some web interface so that people {disfmarker} you didn't actually have to send everyone the text . So m what my intention to do is that as the transcripts become ready , um {pause} I would take them , and generate the web pages and send email to every participant or contact them using the contact method they wanted , and just uh , tell them , \" here 's the web page \" , um , \" you need a password \" . So th th question number one is how do we distribute the passwords , and question number two is how else do we wanna provide this information if they want it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} I think what I was sort of saying is that if you just say {vocalsound} \" here is a {disfmarker} here is {disfmarker} \" I mean this maybe it sounds paleolithic but {disfmarker} but I just thought if you handed them some sheets of paper , that said , uh , \" here 's what was said in this transcription is it OK with you ? and if it is , here 's this other sheet of paper that you sign that says that it 's OK \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I think that um there are a subset of people who will want printouts that we can certainly provide .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And then they 'd hand it back to you .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But certainly I wouldn't want a printout . These are big , and I would much rather be {pause} ha be able to just sit and leaf through it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You find it easier to go through a large {disfmarker} I mean how do you read books ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I certainly read books by hand . But for something like this , I think it 's easier to do it on the web .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Really ? I mean , it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Cuz you 're gonna get , you know , if I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm in a bunch of meetings and I don't wanna get a stack of these . I wanna just be able to go to {disfmarker} go to the web site {comment} and visit it as I want .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Going to a web site is easy , but flipping through a hundred pounds {disfmarker} a hundred pages of stuff is not easy on the web .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think it 's that much harder than , paper . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I have one question . So are you thinking that um the person would have a transcript and go strictly from the transcript ? Because I {disfmarker} I do think that there 's a benefit to being able to hear the tone of voice and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So here 's the way I was imagining it , and maybe I 'm wrong ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "but the way I imagined it was that um , the largest set of people is gonna go \" oh yeah , I didn't say anything funny in that meeting just go ahead , where 's the {disfmarker} where 's the release ? \" And then there 'll be a subset of people , right ? {disfmarker} OK there 's {disfmarker} I mean think of who it is we 've been recording mostly .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK there 'll be a subset of people , who um , will say uh \" well , yeah , I really would like to see that . \" And for them , the easiest way to flip through , if it 's a really large document , I mean unless you 're searching . Searching , of course , should be electronic , but if you 're not {disfmarker} so if you provide some search mechanism you go to every place they said something or something like that ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but see then we 're getting more elaborate with this thing . Um if {disfmarker} if uh you don't have search mechanisms you just sort of have this really , really long document , I mean whenever I 've had a really , really long document that it was sitting on the web , I 've always ended up printing it out . I mean , so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean , you {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're not necessarily gonna be sitting at the desk all the time , you wanna figure you have a train ride , and there 's all these situations where {disfmarker} where I {disfmarker} I mean , this is how I was imagining it , anyway . And then I figured , that out of that group , there would be a subset who would go \" hmm you know I 'm really not sure about this section here , \" and then that group would need it {disfmarker} S It seems like i if I 'm right in that , it seems like you 're setting it up for the most infrequent case , rather than for the most frequent case . So that uh , now we have to worry about privacy ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , no fre for the most {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "we have to worry about all these passwords , for different people", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "For the most frequent case they just say {pause} \" it 's OK \" and then they 're done . And I think {pause} almost everyone would rather do that by email than any other method .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The other thing too is it seems like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um , yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Go ahead .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean , cuz you don't have to visit the web page if you don't want to .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker} Yeah , I guess we don't need their signature . I guess an email OK is alright .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh that was another thing I {disfmarker} I had assumed that we didn't need their signature , that it {disfmarker} that an email approval was sufficient . But {pause} I don't actually know .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are {disfmarker} are people going to be allowed to bleep out sections of a meeting where they weren't speaking ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yes . If someone feels strongly enough about it , then I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think they should be allowed to do that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I also {disfmarker} mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So that means other people are editing what you say ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh {pause} I don't know about that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know if I like that .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well , the only other choice is that the person would say \" no , don't distribute this meeting at all \" , and I would rather they were able to edit out other people then just say \" don't distribute it at all \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But th what they signed in the consent form , was something that said you can use my voice .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , but if {disfmarker} if someone is having a conversation , and you only bleep out one side of it , that 's not sufficient .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ? Yeah . Yeah , but that 's our decision then . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , I don't think so . I mean , because if I object to the conversation .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I think it is .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "If I say \" we were having a conversation , and I consider that conversation private , \" and I consider that your side of it is enough for other people to infer , I wanna be able to bleep out your side .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} I agree that the consent forms were {disfmarker} uh , I cons agree with what Adam 's saying , that {vocalsound} um , the consent form did leave open this possibility that they could edit things which they found offensive whe whether they said them or didn't say them .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I see . OK , well , if that 's what it said .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And the other thing is from the standpoint of the l of the l I 'm not a law lawyer , but it strikes me that {vocalsound} uh , we wouldn't want someone to say \" oh yes , I was a little concerned about it but {vocalsound} it was too hard to access \" . So I think it 's kind of nice to have this facility to listen to it . Now {disfmarker} in terms of like editing it by hand , I mean I think it 's {disfmarker} i some people would find that easier to specify the bleep part by having a document they edited . But {disfmarker} but it seems to me that sometimes um , you know i if a person had a bad day , and they had a tone in their voice that they didn't really like , you know it 's nice {disfmarker} it 's nice to be able to listen to it and be sure that that was OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean I can certainly provide a printable version if people want it . Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um {pause} I mean it 's also a mixture of people , I mean some people are r do their work primarily by sitting at the computer , flipping around the web , and others do not .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Others would consider it {disfmarker} this uh {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a set of skills that they would have to gain . You know ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I think most of the people in the meetings are the former .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It depends on what meetings .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So far .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "In the meetings so far , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But we 're trying to expand this , right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I actually think that paper is the more universal thing .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And that {disfmarker} Well , but if they want to print it out that 's alright .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I think everyone in the meeting can access the web .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I think we have to be able to print it out . It 's not just if they want to print it out . I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK , so does that mean that I can't use email ? Or what ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz you could send it through email you 're thinking .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I th", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "well {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} there was this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "well I don't think we can send the text through email because of the privacy issues .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good . For security ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um . So giving them , you think a web site to say , \" if you wanna print it out here it is \" , is not sufficient ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Good point . ", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah . I", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Certainly for everybody who 's been in the meetings so far it would be sufficient .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I 'm just thinking for people that that 's not sufficient for , what {disfmarker} the only sufficient thing would be for me to walk up to them and hand it to them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I 'm just wondering about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You could mail it to them .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Get an a mailing address .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Equivalent .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I think it 's easier to drop in the box .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Just put the button on {disfmarker} on the web page which say \" please send me the {disfmarker} the scripts \" .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh that 's interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What um {disfmarker} When you display it on the web page , what are {disfmarker} what are you showing them ? Utterances , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so can they bleep within an utterance ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "No . Whole utterances only .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Whole utterances .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And that was just convenience for my sake , that it 's uh , uh it would end up being fairly difficult to edit the transcripts if we would do it at the sub - utterance level . Because this way I can just delete an entire line out of a transcript file rather than have to do it by hand .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's another aspect to this which maybe {disfmarker} is part of why this is bothering me . Um , I think you 're really trying very hard to make this as convenient as possible for people to do this .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean that 's why I did the web form , because for me that would be my most convenient .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I understand .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I know where you 're going .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I think that 's the bad idea .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "See because you 're gon you 're {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Really . You 're gonna end up with all these little patchy things , whereas really what we want to do is have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the bias towards letting it go . Because nob you know it {disfmarker} There was a {disfmarker} one or twi once or twice , in the re in the meetings we 've heard , where somebody said something that they might be embarrassed by , but overall people are talking about technical topics . Nobody 's gonna get hurt . Nobody 's being l libeled . You know , this is {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're covering {disfmarker} We 're playing the lawyer 's game , and we 're playing we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're looking for the extreme case . If we really orient it towards that extreme case , make it really easy , we 're gonna end up encouraging a headache . That {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} I 'm sort of psyching myself out here , I {disfmarker} I 'm trying to {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I guess I don't see having a few phrases here and there in a meeting being that mu much of a headache , bleeped out .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I think what Morgan 's saying is the easier it is , the more is gonna be bleeped .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "but i And {disfmarker} and it really depends on what kind of research you 're doing . I think some researchers who are gonna be working with this corpus years from now are really gonna be cursing the fact that there 's a bunch of stuff in there {comment} that 's missing from the dialogue .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know , it depends on the kind of research they 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but it might be , uh {pause} it might be really a {disfmarker} a pain . And , you know where it 's really gonna hurt somebody , in some way {disfmarker} the one who said it or someone who is being spoken about , {comment} we definitely want to allow the option of it being bleeped out . But I really think we wanna make it the rare incidence . And {disfmarker} and uh , I am just a little worried about making it so easy for people to do , and so much fun ! {vocalsound} that they 're gonna go through and bleep out stuff .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So much fun .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "and they can bleep out stuff they don't like too , right from somebody else , as you say , you know , so \" well I didn't like what he said . \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I don't see any way of avoiding that . I mean , we have to provi we have promised that we would provide them the transcript and that they can remove parts that they don't like . So that the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No , no , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The only question is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You - you 've talked me into that , but I {disfmarker} I just think that we should make it harder to do .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The problem is if it 's harder for them it 's also harder for me . Whereas this web interface , I just get email , it 's all formatted , it 's all ready to go and I can just insert it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So maybe you don't give them access to the web interface unless they really need it . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I guess {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} So maybe this is a s a way out of it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You 've provided something that 's useful for you to do {disfmarker} handle , and useful for someone else if they need it . But I think the issue of privacy and ease and so forth should be that uh , they get access to this if they really need it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So you 're saying the {disfmarker} the sequence would be more like first Adam goes to the contact lists , contacts them via whatever their preferred method is , to see if they want to review the meeting .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And then if they don't , you 're done . If they do , then he provides them access to the {disfmarker} the web site .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well , to some extent I have to do that anyway because as I said we have to distribute passwords .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "W w", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} a printed - out form .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "y but you don't necessarily have to distribute passwords is what I 'm saying .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Only if they want it .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "what I 'm saying is that I can't just email them the password because that 's not secure . So they have to call me and ask .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , no , no . But you aren't necessarily giving them {disfmarker} Right . But {disfmarker} we don't even necessarily need to end up distributing passwords at all .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , we do because of privacy . We can't just make it openly available on the web .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , no . You 're missing the point .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "We 're {disfmarker} We 're trying i We 're trying to make it less of an obvious just l l l l uh fall off a log , to do this .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Not everyone gets a password , unless they ask for it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right ? So th so what I would see , is that first you contact them and ask them if they would like to review it for to check for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "not just for fun , OK ? but to {disfmarker} to check this for uh things that they 're worried about having said or if they 're willing to just send an approval of it , at {disfmarker} from their memory . Um {disfmarker} and , uh , and we should think carefully actually we should review {disfmarker} go through how that 's worded , OK ? Then , if someone uh {disfmarker} wants to review it , uh , and I know you don't like this , but I 'm offering this as a suggestion , is that {disfmarker} is that we then give them a print out . And then if they say that \" I have a potential problem with these things , \" then , you {disfmarker} you say \" OK well you might wanna hear this in context to s think if you need that , \" you issue them a password , i in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But the {disfmarker} the problem with what you 're suggesting is it 's not just inconvenient for them , it 's inconvenient for me . Because that means multiple contacts every time {disfmarker} for every single meeting every time anyone wants anything . I would much prefer to have all be automatic , they visit the web site if they want to . Obviously they don't have to .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I know you 'd prefer it , but the proble", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "we have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So I think you 're thinking people are going to arbitrarily start bleeping and I just don't think that 's gonna happen .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "there 's a problem with it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm also concerned about the spirit of the {disfmarker} of the informed consent thing . Cuz I think if they feel that uh , it 's {disfmarker} I th I th You know , if it turns out that something gets published in this corpus that someone really should have eliminated and didn't detect , then it could have been because of their own negligence that they didn't pursue that next level and get the password and do that , um , but {disfmarker} but they might be able to argue \" oh well it was cumbersome , and I was busy and it was gonna take me too much time to trace it down \" . So it could that the burden would come back onto us . So I 'm a little bit worried about uh , making it harder for them , from the legal standpoint .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well you can go too far in that direction , and you need to find somewhere between I think ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "It seems to me that sending them email , saying \" if you have an O - OK reply to this email and say OK ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "If you have a problem with it contact me and I 'll give you a password \" , seems like is a perfectly , reasonable compromise . And if they want a printout they can print it out themselves .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or we could print it up for them ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean we could offer that {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but there 's uh , another aspect to that and that is that in the informed consent form , um , my impression is that they {disfmarker} that we offered them at the very least that they definitely would have access to the transcript . And {disfmarker} and I ha", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know that there 's a chance of really skipping that stage . I mean I {disfmarker} I thought that you were {disfmarker} Maybe I misinterpreted what you said but it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Having access to it doesn't necessarily mean , that {disfmarker} having it", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Having it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Giving it to them .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well the in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ? It just means they have the right to have it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "the consent form is right in there if anyone wants to look at it ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright . Fine . OK . Fair enough .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "D you want me to grab one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sh - sh well I could {disfmarker} I 'm closer .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , but you 're wired", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "aren't you ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . That is true .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um . {vocalsound} Yeah , I mean I don't wanna fool them ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I just meant that e every {disfmarker} ev any time you say anything to anyone there is in fact a {disfmarker} a bias that is presented ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah {disfmarker} oh I know .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" If you agree to participate you 'll have the opportunity to have anything ex anything excised , which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "of {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's true . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "\" Once a transcript is available we will ask your permission to include the data in the corpus for the r larger research community .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There again you will be allowed to indicate any sections that you 'd prefer to have excised from the database , and they will m be removed both from the transcript and the recording . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Well that 's more open than I realized .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well , I mean it {disfmarker} The one question is definitely clear with anything as opposed to just what you said .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh no that {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} tha", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Tha - that 's true . That 's more severe , but the next one says the transcript will be around .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "that 's right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And it doesn't {comment} really say we 'll send it to you , or wi it 'll be available for you on the web , or anything .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I think it probably leaves it open how we get it to them .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "At least it more often . Yeah . It means also we don't have to g To give it to them . I mean like {disfmarker} like Morgan was saying they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "They just have to make sure that it is available to them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's available to them if they ask for it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , so . wh um {disfmarker} I think I have an idea that may be sat may satisfy both you and me in this which is , um , it 's a {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} we just go over carefully how these notes to people are worded . So I {disfmarker} I just want it to be worded in such a way where it gives the strong impre it gives very , I mean nothing hidden , v very strongly the bias that we would really like to use all of these data .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} that we really would rather it wasn't a patchwork of things tossed out ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "that it would be better for , um , our , uh , field if that is the case . But if you really think something is gonna {disfmarker} And I don't think there 's anything in the legal aspects that {disfmarker} that is hurt by our expressing that bias .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Great . Great , great .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} then my concern about {disfmarker} which {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I agree .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "you know you might be right , it may be it was just paranoia on my part , uh but people just {disfmarker} See I 'm @ @ worried about this interface so much fun {vocalsound} that people start bleeping stuff out {comment} {vocalsound} just as {disfmarker} just because they can .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It 's just a check box next to the text , it 's not any fun at all .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well I don't know . I kind of had fun when you played me something that was bleeped out . You know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , but they won't get that feedback .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "All {disfmarker} no because it doesn't automatically bleep it at the time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh they won't ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It just sends me {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh good . So you haven't made it so much fun .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh good .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It just sends me the time intervals .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And then at some point I 'll incorporate them all and put bleeps . I mean I don't wanna have t ha do that yet until we actually release the data", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "because um , then we have to have two copies of every meeting and we 're already short on disk space .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I wanna {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} just keep the times until we actually wanna release the data and then we bleep it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Alright , so I think {disfmarker} Yeah so if we have if {disfmarker} i Again let 's you know , sort of circulate the {disfmarker} the wording on each of these things and get it right ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well since you seem to feel heart uh , strongest about it , would you like to do the first pass ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} OK . Uh , fair enough . Turn about is fair play ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Al - Also it ther there is this other question , the legal question that {disfmarker} that Adam 's raised , uh about whether we need a concrete signature , or email c i suffices or whatever", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and I don't know how that works . i There 's something down there about \" if you agree to {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I thought about it with one of my background processes", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and I {disfmarker} uh it 's {disfmarker} uh it 's uh , it 's fine to do the email .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Ah . Fine .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah because thi th they 're signing here that they 're agreeing to the paragraph which says \" you 'll be given an opportunity . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good . OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And so I don't think they need another signature .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Well and furthermore I {disfmarker} it 's now fairly routine in a lot of arrangements that I do with people on contracts and so forth that {disfmarker} that uh if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's that sort of thing where you 're you 're saying uh \" OK I agree , we want eighty hours of this person at such - and - such amount , and I agree that 's OK , \" uh if it 's a follow up to some other agreement where there was a signature it 's often done in email now", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so it 's {disfmarker} it 's OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So I guess I probably should at the minimum , think about how to present it in a printed form . I 'm not really sure what 's best with that . The problem is a lot of them are really short ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "and so I don't necessarily wanna do one per line . But I don't know how else to do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well I s I also have this {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice you have it uh , viewab her {comment} hearable on the {disfmarker} on the web for those who might wonder about um , the non nonverbal side , I mean I {disfmarker} I agree that our bias should be as {disfmarker} as expressed here , and {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice that a person could check . Cuz sometimes you know you {disfmarker} the words on a {disfmarker} on the page , come out soun sounding different in terms of the {pause} social dynamics if they hear it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And I realize we shouldn't emphasize that people {comment} you know , shouldn't borrow trouble . What it comes down to but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah I think actually {disfmarker} my opinion probably is that the only time someone will need to listen to it is if the transcript is uh not good . You know , if {disfmarker} if there are lots of mumbles and parentheses and things like that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , you know , or what if there was an error in the transcript that didn't get detected and there was a whole uh {disfmarker} i segment a against some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} personal {vocalsound} i th", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right . That was all mumbled ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think Microsoft is", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah exactly", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sorry transcribers .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even {disfmarker} {vocalsound} or even {comment} there was a {disfmarker} a line you know about how \" hmm - mmm - mmm {comment} Bill Gates duh - duh - duh - duh . \"", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but it was all {disfmarker} the words were all visible , but they didn't end up i some there was a slip in the transcript .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , God .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "They 're gonna hate this meeting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Actually Liz will like it . You know , but .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Liz will like it . We had a pretty strong disagreement going there .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep , yep , that 's right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So I don't know . I mean , I {disfmarker} I guess we 're assuming that the transcript is a close enough approximation and that {disfmarker} that my double checking will be {pause} so close to absolutely perfect that it {disfmarker} that nothing will slip by .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} some something might sometime , and they {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's something that they said , they might {disfmarker} i i I mean , you might be very accurate in putting down what they actually said ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "but , when they hear it , themselves , they may hear something different because they know what they meant .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know how to notate that .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Sarcasm ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "how do you {disfmarker} how do you indicate sarcasm ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's right .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "No , I 'm serious . So {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} i the {disfmarker} so we might {disfmarker} we might get some feedback from people that such - and - such was , you know , not {disfmarker} not really what I said .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well that would be good to get , definitely .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , but , Yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Just for corrections .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So um , in terms of password distribution , I think phone is really the only way to do it , phone and in person . Or mail , physical mail .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or if for leave it on their voice mail .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Any sub - word level thing . ", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Any sub - wor Yeah , OK . I mean you could do it with PGP or things like that but it 's too complex .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know I just realized something , which is of {disfmarker} e th this question about the {disfmarker} uh the possible mismatch of {disfmarker} I mean i well , and actually also the lawyer saying that um , we shouldn't really have them {disfmarker} have the people believing that they will be cleared by our checks . You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean . So it 's like i in a way it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to have the responsibility still on them to listen to the tape and {disfmarker} and hear the transcript , to have that be the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well yeah , but you can't dep I mean , most people will not wanna take the time to do that , though .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , fair enough . And they 're s they 're absorbing the responsibility themselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And they {disfmarker} they have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not um {disfmarker} Yeah , good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "But I mean if you were at a meeting , and {disfmarker} and you {disfmarker} you don't think , at least , that you said anything funny and the meeting was about , you know , some {disfmarker} some funny thing about semantics or something , or uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You probably won't listen to it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It is true that tec that the content is technical , I {disfmarker} and so i and we 're not having these discussions which {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , when I listen to these things , I don't find things that are questionable , in other people 's speech or in my own .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah . You would think it would be rare ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} It should be very rare .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean we 're not talking about the energy crisis or something , people have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "How about them energy crises .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think we 're uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Done ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Kind of done . Actually , I was gonna {disfmarker} Di - Did you have anything n that 's going on , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Not really . No . Um , {vocalsound} my project is going along but um , I 'm really just here to um fill the project uh {disfmarker} the overall progress . I don't really have anything specific to {disfmarker} to talk about .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's fine . I just didn't wanna go by you , if you had something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You don't have anything to say .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": " ", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Transcribers , he was rattling the b marbles in his brain back and forth just then this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Shall we do digits ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , oh by the way I did find a bunch {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It um", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh , we should count out how many more digits to forms do we have back there ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There were quite a few . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "That 's what I thought . I f I was going through them all and I found actually a lot filed in with them , that were blanks , that no one had actually read .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And so we still have more than I thought we did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh good .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So , we have a few more digits before we 're done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know having this headset reminds me of like working at Burger King or something .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , did you do that ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Burger King", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I 'd like a burger with that ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No I never did .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "do you want fries with that ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But I feel like I could now .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And {pause}", "speaker": "Grad C" } ]

[ { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So are you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Are we going ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It is uh , must be February fifteenth .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yu I think the date 's written in there , yep . And actually if everyone could cross out the R - nine next to \" Session \" , and write MR eleven .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We didn't have a front - end meeting today .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And let 's remember also to make sure that one 's {comment} gets marked as unread , unused .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "MR eleven .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "MR eleven .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That sounds like a spy code .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mmm . OK . So .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There 's lots of clicking I 'm sure as I 'm trying to get this to work {pause} correctly .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Agenda . Any agenda items today ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I wanna talk a little bit about getting {disfmarker} how we 're gonna to get people to edit bleeps , parts of the meeting that they don't want to include . What I 've done so far , and I wanna get some opinions on , how to {disfmarker} how to finish it up .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I wanna ask about um , some aud audio monitoring on some of the {pause} um {pause} well some of the equipment . In particular , the {disfmarker} well uh , that 's just what I wanna ask .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK audio monitoring , Jane .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Ba - based on some of the tran uh {disfmarker} i In listening to {pause} some of these meetings that have already been recorded there are sometimes big spikes on particular things , and in pact {disfmarker} in fact this one I 'm talking on is one of {disfmarker} of the ones that showed up in one of the meetings ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh really .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "\" Spikes \" , you mean like uh , instantaneous click type spikes , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Spikes ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Clicks .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And I don't know what the e electronics is but .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well , I think it 's", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Touching .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh , it {disfmarker} it could be a number of things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It could be touching and fiddling , and the other thing is that it could {disfmarker} the fact that it 's on a wired mike is suspicious . It might be a connector .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , OK . Well maybe {disfmarker} Then we don't really have to talk about that as an {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You could try an experiment and say \" OK , I 'm about to test for spikes \" ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I take that off the agenda .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "and then wiggle the thing there , and then go and when they go to transcribe it , it could , ask them to come and get you .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Come get me when you transcribe this and see if there 's spikes . \"", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Oh that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "No I 'm just {disfmarker} ", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean , were this a professional audio recording , {vocalsound} what we would do {disfmarker} {comment} what you would do is {disfmarker} in testing it is , you would actually do all this wiggling and make sure that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that things are not giving that kind of performance . And if they are , then they can't be used .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . Um . Let 's see . I guess {pause} I would like to have a discussion about you know where we are on uh , recording , transcription you know , basically you know where we are on the corpus .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And then um , the other thing which I would like to talk about which is a real meta - quest , I think , deal is , uh , agendas . So maybe I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll start with that actually . Uh , um . {vocalsound} Andreas brought up the fact that he would kinda like to know , if possible , what we were gonna be talking about because he 's sort of peripherally involved to this point , and if there 's gonna be a topic about {disfmarker} discussion about something that he uh strongly cares about then he would come and {disfmarker} And I think part of {disfmarker} part of his motivation with this is that he 's trying to help us out , in the {disfmarker} because of uh the fact that the meetings are {disfmarker} are tending to become reasonably large now on days when everybody shows up and so , he figures he could help that out by not showing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and I 'm sure help out his own time . by not showing up if it 's a meeting that he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} So , uh in order {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} I think that this is a wish on his part . Uh . It 's actually gonna be hard because it seems like a lot of times uh things come up that are unanticipated and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But um , we could try anyway , uh , do another try at coming up with the agenda uh , at some point before the meeting , uh , say the day before .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well maybe it would be a good idea for one of us to {pause} like on Wednesday , or Tuesday send out a reminder for people to send in agenda items .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK . You {disfmarker} you wanna volunteer to do that ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Alright so we 'll send out agenda request .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Let me", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} I think that 'll help {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I 'll put that on my spare brain or it will not {pause} get done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 'll help a lot , actually .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have to tell you for the uh {disfmarker} for the admin meeting that we have , Lila does that um every time before an admin meeting . And uh , she ends up getting the agenda requests uh , uh ten minutes before the meeting . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} {comment} But . Uh . {comment} But we can try . Maybe it 'll work .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe . Weirder things have happened .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm wondering if he were to just , uh , specify particular topics , I mean . Maybe we 'd be able to meet that request of his a little more .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I would {disfmarker} I would also guess that as we get more into processing the data and things like that there 'll be more things of interest to him .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Actually it {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this maybe brings up another topic which is um {disfmarker} So we 're done with that topic . The other topic I was thinking of was the sta status on microphones and channels , and all that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , actually I {disfmarker} I was going to say we need to {pause} talk about that too .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Why {disfmarker} why don't we do that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK . Um , the new microphones , the two new ones are in . Um . {pause} And they are being assembled as we speak , I hope . And I didn't bring my car today so I 'm gonna pick them up tomorrow . Um , and then the other question I was thinking about is {disfmarker} well , a couple things . First of all , if the other headsets are a lot more comfortable , we should probably just go ahead and get them . So we 'll have to evaluate that when they come in ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and get people 's opinions on {disfmarker} on what they think of them . Um , then the other question I had is maybe we should get another wireless . Another wireless setup . I mean it 's expensive , but it does seem to be {pause} better than the wired .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So how many channels do you get to have in a wireless setup ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , well , I 'm pretty sure that you can daisy - chain them together so what we would do is replace the wired mikes with wireless . So we currently have one base station with six wireless mike , possibility of six wireless receivers , and apparently you can chain those together . And so we could replace our wired mikes with wireless if we bought another base station and more wireless mikes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So , you know it 's still , it 's fifteen minus six .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So let 's see we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right ? So we could have up to nine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And right now we can have up to six .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right . And we have five , we 're getting one more .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And it 's um , about nine hundred dollars for the base station , and then eight hundred per channel .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh . So yeah so the only {disfmarker} Beyond the mike {disfmarker} the cost of the mikes the only thing is the base station that 's nine hundred dollars .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , we should do it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK . OK , so I 'll look into how you daisy - chain them and {disfmarker} and then just go ahead and order them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't quite understand how that {disfmarker} how that works , . If {disfmarker} So we 're not increasing the number of channels . OK .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "No , we 're just replacing the wired {disfmarker} the two wired that are still working ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . I see .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "along with a couple of the wired that aren't working , one of the wired that 's not working , with a wireless .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Three wireds work ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Basically we found {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I guess three wireds work , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we 've had more problems with that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And that sort of bypasses the whole {disfmarker} the whole Jimbox thing and all that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so um , we {disfmarker} we seem to have uh , a reliable way of getting the data in , which is through the ra Sony radio mikes , as long as we 're conscious about the batteries .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That seems to be the key issue .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Everyone 's battery OK ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I checked them this morning , they should be .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , {vocalsound} That 's the only thing with them . But the quality seems really good and {disfmarker} Um I heard from UW that they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh very close to getting their , uh setup purchased . They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're buying something that you can just sort of buy off the shelf .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well we should talk to them about it because I know that SRI is also in the process of looking at stuff , and so , you know , what we should try to keep everyone {disfmarker} on the same page with that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "SRI , really ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "They got sa apparent Well , Maybe {pause} this needs to be bleeped out ? I have no clue .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know how much of it 's public .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Probably we shouldn't {disfmarker} probably we shouldn't talk about funding stuff .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . But anyway there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's uh , uh other activities that are going on there and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} and NIST and UW . So . Um . But {disfmarker} but yeah I thin I think that at least the message we can tell other people is that our experience is {disfmarker} is quite positive with the Sony ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "uh , radio - mikes . Now the one thing that you have said that actually concerns me a little is you 're talking about changing the headsets meaning changing the connector , which means some hand - soldering or something , right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , no , we 're having the {disfmarker} them do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So it 's so hand - soldering it , but I 'm not doing it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , they {disfmarker} they charge", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Nothing against you and your hand - soldering", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You 've never seen my hand - soldering . But uh , a as I said they 're coming in .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , so that 's being done professionally and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "As professionally as I guess you can get it done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , it could {disfmarker} if they do a lot of it , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean i it 's just their repair shop . Right ? Their maintenance people .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , we 'll see what it {disfmarker} it 's like .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} tha that can be quite good . Th - this {disfmarker} Yeah , OK . Good . Yeah . So let 's go with that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And , I mean we 'll see , tomorrow , you know , what it looks like .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , Yeah . So , um , uh , Dave isn't here but he was going to start working on some things with the digits . Uh , so he 'll be interested in what 's going on with that . I guess {disfmarker} Was {disfmarker} the decision last time was that the {disfmarker} the uh transcribers were going to be doing stuff with the digits as well ? Has that started , or is that {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah . Uh , it would be to use his interface and I was going to meet with him today about that .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right , so , the decision was that Jane did not want the transcribers to be doing any of the paperwork . So I did the {disfmarker} all that last week . So all the {disfmarker} all the forms are now {pause} on the computer . And uh , then I have a bunch of scripts that we 'll read those and let the uh {pause} transcribers use different tools . And I just want to talk to Jane about how we transition to using those .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So he has a nice set up that they {disfmarker} it w it will be efficient for them to do that .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think it 'll take too long .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So anyway {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , you know , just uh , a matter of a few days I suspect .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So anyway I think we {disfmarker} we have at least one uh , user for the digits once they get done , which will be Dave .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right . I 've already done five or six {pause} sets .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So if he wanted to , you know , just have a few to start with , he could . You know , and I also have a bunch of scripts that will , like , generate P - files and run recognition on them also .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , he might {disfmarker} he might be asking {disfmarker} Right . OK . Uh , is Dave {disfmarker} I don't know if Dave is on the list , if he 's invited to these meetings , uh if he knows .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't tend to get an invitation myself for them even .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , we don't have a active one but I 'll make sure he 's on the list .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Should we call him ? I mean is he {disfmarker} d is he definitely not available today ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Should I call his office and see ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "He was in .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean , he 's still taking classes , so uh , he may well have conflicts .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , well i it 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , he was in {pause} s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He wasn't there at cof", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so this might be a conflict for him .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK . Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah didn't he say his signal - processing class was like {pause} Tuesdays and Thursdays ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I think he has a class . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . He might have .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Oh well , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You talking about David Gelbart ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think he 's taking two twenty - five A which is now .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK . So , that 's why we 're not seeing him . OK . Uh , transcriptions , uh , beyond the digits , where we are , and so on .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the recordings also ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "just where we are . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , so um , should we {disfmarker} we don't wan wanna do the recording status first , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well , we have about thirty - two hours uh as of , I guess a week and a half ago , so we probably now have about thirty - five hours .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh {disfmarker} How much of that is digits ? It 's uh {disfmarker} that 's including digits ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's including digits .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I haven't separated it out so I have no clue how much of that is digits .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . So anyway there 's at least probably thirty hours , or something of {disfmarker} There 's got to be more than thirty hour {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Of {disfmarker} of non - digits ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "i it couldn't {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} Of non - digits .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , absolutely . I mean , the digits don't take up that much time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK , and the transcribers h I , uh , don't have the exact numbers , but I {pause} think it would come to about eleven hours that are finished uh , transcribing from them right now . The next step is to {disfmarker} that I 'm working on is to insure that the data are clean first , and then channelized . What I mean by clean is that they 're spell - checked , that the mark - up is consistent all the way throughout , and also that we now incorporate these additional conventions that uh , Liz requested in terms of um , um {pause} in terms of having a s a systematic handling of numbers , and acronyms which I hadn't been specific about . Um , for example , i they 'll say uh \" ninety - two \" . And you know , so how {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Nine two ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "e Exactly .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So if you just say \" nine two \" , the {disfmarker} there are many s ways that could have been expressed . An - and I just had them {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , a certain number of them did put the words down , but now we have a convention which also involves having it followed by , um , a gloss th and things .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You know , Jane ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , one suggestion and you may already be doing this , but I 've noticed in the past that when I 've gone through transcriptions and you know in {disfmarker} in order to build lexicons and things , if you um , just take all the transcriptions and separate them into words and then alphabetize them , {comment} a lot of times just scanning down that list you 'll find a lot of {pause} inconsistencies and mis", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Misspelled .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 're talking about the type token frequency listings , and I use those too . Y you mean just uh {pause} on each {disfmarker} on each line there 's a one word right ? It 's one token from the {disfmarker} from the corpus .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , those are e extremely efficient and I and I {disfmarker} I agree that 's a very good use of it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh so you already have that , OK .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well that 's {disfmarker} that 's a way {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} You know , the spell - check basically does that but {disfmarker} but in addition {disfmarker} yes , that 's {disfmarker} that 's exactly the strategy I wanna do in terms of locating these things which are you know colloquial spoken forms which aren't in the lexicon .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Cuz a lot of times they 'll appear next to each other , and uh ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Exactly . And then you ca then you can do a s", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "i in alphabetized lists , they 'll appear next to each other and {disfmarker} and so it makes it easier .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Absolutely . I agree . That 's a very good {disfmarker} that 's a very good uh , suggestion . And that was {disfmarker} that 's my strategy for handling a lot of these things , in terms of things that need to be glossed . I didn't get to that point but {disfmarker} So there are numbers , then there are acronyms , and then um , there 's a {disfmarker} he she wants the uh , actually a {disfmarker} an explicit marker of what type of comment this is , so i curly b inside the curly brackets I 'm gonna put either \" VOC \" for vocalized , like cough or like laugh or whatever , \" NONVOC \" for door - slam , and \" GLOSS \" for things that have to do with {disfmarker} if they said a s a spoken form with this {disfmarker} m this pronunciation error .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I already had that convention", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh that 's great .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "but I {disfmarker} I haven't been asking these people to do it systematically cuz I think it most {disfmarker} ha most efficiently handled by uh {disfmarker} by a {disfmarker} a filter . That was what I was always planing on . So that , you know you get a whole long list {disfmarker} exactly what you 're saying , you get a whole list of things that say \" curly bracket laugh curly bracket \" ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "then y you know it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you risk less error if you handle it by a filter , than if you have this transcriber ch laboriously typing in sort of a VOC space ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "so man So many ways that error prone .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So , um , {vocalsound} um I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm going to convert that via a filter , into these tagged uh , subcategorized comments , and same thing with you know , we see you get a subset when you do what you 're saying ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "you end up with a s with uh , you 're collapsing across a frequency you just have the tokens", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and you can um , have a filter which more efficiently makes those changes . But the numbers and acronyms have to be handled by hand , because , you know I mean , jus", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You don't know what they could be .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah now TIMIT 's clear um {pause} and PLP is clear but uh there are things that are not so well known , in {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or have variant {disfmarker} u u uses like the numbers you can say \" nine two \" or you can say \" ninety - two \" ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So how are you doing the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and uh I 'd handle the numbers individually .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "How are you doing the uh , acronyms so if I say PZM what would it appear on the transcript ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It would be separate {disfmarker} The letters would be separated in space", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and potentially they 'll have a curly bracket thing afterwards e but I 'm not sure if that 's necessary , clarifying what it is ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so gloss of {pause} whatever .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know if that 's really necessary to do that . Maybe it 's a nice thing to do because of it then indicating this is uh , a step away from i indicating that it really is intentional that those spaces are there , and indicating why they 're there to indicate that it 's uh {vocalsound} the you know , {comment} uh enumerated , or i", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "it 's not a good way of saying {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} it 's the {vocalsound} specific uh way of stating these {disfmarker} these letters .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right . So it sounds good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so anyway , the clean {disfmarker} those are those things and then channelized is to then um , get it into this multichannel format . And at that point then it 's ready for use by Liz and Don . But that 's been my top priority {disfmarker} beyond getting it tanel channelized , the next step is to work on tightening up the boundaries of the time bins .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And uh , Thilo had a {disfmarker} e e a breakthrough with this {disfmarker} this last week in terms of getting the channel - based um uh s s speech - nonspeech segmentation um , up and running and I haven't {disfmarker} I haven't been able to use that yet cuz I 'm working s re this is my top priority {disfmarker} get the data clean , and channelized .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I actually gave", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Have you also been doing spot checks , Jane ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Okay , good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well you see that 's part of the cleaning process . I spent um actually um I have a segment of ten minutes that was transcribed by two of our transcribers ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh good . Good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and I went through it last night , it 's {disfmarker} it 's almost spooky how similar these are , word for word . And there are some differences in commas cuz commas I {disfmarker} I left them discretion at commas .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} and so because it 's not part of our st of our ne needed conventions .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And um , and {disfmarker} so they 'll be a difference in commas , but it 's word - by - word the same , in {disfmarker} in huge patches of the data . And I have t ten minute stretch where I can {disfmarker} where I can show that . And {disfmarker} and sometimes it turns out that one of these transcribers has a better ear for technical jargon , and the other one has a better ear for colloquial speech . So um , the one i i the colloquial speech person picked up \" gobbledy - gook \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And the other one didn't . And on this side , this one 's picking up things like \" neural nets \" and the one that 's good on the sp o on th the vocabulary on the uh colloquial didn't .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "When {disfmarker} for the person who missed \" gobbledy - gook \" what did they put ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "It was an interesting approximation , put in parentheses , cuz I have this convention that , i if they 're not sure what it was , they put it in parentheses .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So they tried to approximate it , but it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh good .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "it was spelled GABBL {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Sort of how it sounds . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yes . More of an attempt to {disfmarker} I mean apparently it was very clear to her that these {disfmarker} the a this {disfmarker} this was a sound {disfmarker} these are the sounds ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "It was a technical term that she didn't recognize ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . But she knew that she didn't know it . Maybe it was a technical ter exactly . But she {disfmarker} even though her technical perception is just really {disfmarker} uh you know I 've {disfmarker} I 'm tempted to ask her if she 's taken any courses in this area or if she 's taken cognitive science courses", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "then cuz \" neural nets \" and {disfmarker} oh she has some things that are {disfmarker} oh \" downsampled \" , she got that right .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And some of these are rather {pause} uh unexpected .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Obscure , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But ch ten solid uh {disfmarker} m ch s chunk of ten solid minutes where they both coded the same data .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and again the main track that you 're working with is elev eleven hours ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Is that right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yes exactly .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And that 's part of this {disfmarker} Eleven hours .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Is that {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} that including digits ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yes it is .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So let 's say roughly {pause} ten hours or so of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean it 's probably more than that but {disfmarker} but with {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of non - digits .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 'd be more than that because I {disfmarker} my recollection is the minutes {disfmarker} that da digits don't take more than half a minute . Per person .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But um {pause} the {disfmarker} the total set that I gave them is twelve hours of tape ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , I see .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But they haven't gotten to the end of that yet .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , I see .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So they 're still working {disfmarker} some of them are {disfmarker} Two of them are still working on completing that . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Boy , they 're moving right along .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . They are . Mm - hmm . They 're very efficient . There 're some who have more hours that they devote to it than others .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what 's the deal with {disfmarker} with your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The channel u thing ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's just uh , I ran the recognizer {disfmarker} uh , the {pause} {comment} speech - nonspeech detector on different channels and , it 's just in uh {disfmarker} in this new multi - channel format and output , and I just gave one {disfmarker} one meeting to {disfmarker} to Liz who wanted to {disfmarker} to try it for {disfmarker} for the recognizer", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , I see .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "as uh , apparently the recognizer had problems with those long chunks of speech , which took too much memory or whatever ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and so {pause} she {disfmarker} she will try that I think", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm working on it . So , I hope {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is this anything different than the HMM system you were using before ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No . Uh , I {pause} mmm , use some {disfmarker} some different features but not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The basic thing is this HMM base .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So there 's still no {disfmarker} no knowledge using different channels at the same time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There is some , uh as the energy is normalized across channels", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You know what I mean ? Across all of them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . But basically that 's one of the main changes .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . What are some of the other features ? Besides the energy ? You said you 're trying some different features , or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh I just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mmm , I just use um our loudness - based things now as they {disfmarker} before there were {disfmarker} they were some in {disfmarker} in the log domain and I {disfmarker} I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cu - Cube root ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . To {disfmarker} No , I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker} to the loudness thingy with the {disfmarker} with the", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "how do you call it ? I 'm not sure . With the , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Fletcher Munson ? No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm not sure about the term .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , I 'll look it up . And say it to you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , alright .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , and {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} that 's basically the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing . Yeah , and I {disfmarker} and I tried t to normalize uh {disfmarker} uh the features , there 's loudness and modified loudness , um , within one channel ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "because they 're , {vocalsound} yeah to {disfmarker} to be able to distinguish between foreground and background speech . And it works quite well . But , not always .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , let 's see . I think the uh {disfmarker} Were {disfmarker} were you basically done with the transcription part ? So I guess the next thing is this uh {disfmarker} bleep editing .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} The idea is that we need to have {disfmarker} We need to provide the transcripts to every participant of every meeting to give them an opportunity to bleep out sections they don't want . So I 've written a bunch of tools that will generate web pages , uh with the transcription in it so that they can click on them and piece {disfmarker} pieces and they can scroll through and read them , and then they can check on each one if they want it excluded . And then , it 's a form , HTML form , so they can submit it and it will end up sending me email with the times that they want excluded . And so , uh , some of the questions on this is what do we do about the privacy issue . And so I thought about this a little bit and I think the best way to do it is every participant will have a password ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "a single password . Each person will have a single password , user name and password . And then each meeting , we 'll only allow the participants who were at that meeting to look at it . And that way each person only has to remember one password .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I can't help but wonder if this is maybe a little more elaborate than is needed . I mean if people have {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , for me I would actually want to have some pieces of paper that had the transcription and I would sort of flip through it . And then {pause} um {pause} if I thought it was OK , I 'd say \" it 's OK \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And , I {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean it depends how this really ends up working out , but I guess my thought was that the occasion of somebody wondering whether something was OK or not and needing to listen to it was gonna be extremely rare .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right , I mean so th th th the fact that you could listen to it over the web is a minor thing that I had already done for {pause} other reasons .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And so that {disfmarker} that 's a minor part of it , I just wanted some web interface so that people {disfmarker} you didn't actually have to send everyone the text . So m what my intention to do is that as the transcripts become ready , um {pause} I would take them , and generate the web pages and send email to every participant or contact them using the contact method they wanted , and just uh , tell them , \" here 's the web page \" , um , \" you need a password \" . So th th question number one is how do we distribute the passwords , and question number two is how else do we wanna provide this information if they want it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} I think what I was sort of saying is that if you just say {vocalsound} \" here is a {disfmarker} here is {disfmarker} \" I mean this maybe it sounds paleolithic but {disfmarker} but I just thought if you handed them some sheets of paper , that said , uh , \" here 's what was said in this transcription is it OK with you ? and if it is , here 's this other sheet of paper that you sign that says that it 's OK \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I think that um there are a subset of people who will want printouts that we can certainly provide .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And then they 'd hand it back to you .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But certainly I wouldn't want a printout . These are big , and I would much rather be {pause} ha be able to just sit and leaf through it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You find it easier to go through a large {disfmarker} I mean how do you read books ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I certainly read books by hand . But for something like this , I think it 's easier to do it on the web .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Really ? I mean , it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Cuz you 're gonna get , you know , if I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm in a bunch of meetings and I don't wanna get a stack of these . I wanna just be able to go to {disfmarker} go to the web site {comment} and visit it as I want .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Going to a web site is easy , but flipping through a hundred pounds {disfmarker} a hundred pages of stuff is not easy on the web .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think it 's that much harder than , paper . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I have one question . So are you thinking that um the person would have a transcript and go strictly from the transcript ? Because I {disfmarker} I do think that there 's a benefit to being able to hear the tone of voice and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So here 's the way I was imagining it , and maybe I 'm wrong ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "but the way I imagined it was that um , the largest set of people is gonna go \" oh yeah , I didn't say anything funny in that meeting just go ahead , where 's the {disfmarker} where 's the release ? \" And then there 'll be a subset of people , right ? {disfmarker} OK there 's {disfmarker} I mean think of who it is we 've been recording mostly .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK there 'll be a subset of people , who um , will say uh \" well , yeah , I really would like to see that . \" And for them , the easiest way to flip through , if it 's a really large document , I mean unless you 're searching . Searching , of course , should be electronic , but if you 're not {disfmarker} so if you provide some search mechanism you go to every place they said something or something like that ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but see then we 're getting more elaborate with this thing . Um if {disfmarker} if uh you don't have search mechanisms you just sort of have this really , really long document , I mean whenever I 've had a really , really long document that it was sitting on the web , I 've always ended up printing it out . I mean , so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean , you {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're not necessarily gonna be sitting at the desk all the time , you wanna figure you have a train ride , and there 's all these situations where {disfmarker} where I {disfmarker} I mean , this is how I was imagining it , anyway . And then I figured , that out of that group , there would be a subset who would go \" hmm you know I 'm really not sure about this section here , \" and then that group would need it {disfmarker} S It seems like i if I 'm right in that , it seems like you 're setting it up for the most infrequent case , rather than for the most frequent case . So that uh , now we have to worry about privacy ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , no fre for the most {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "we have to worry about all these passwords , for different people", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "For the most frequent case they just say {pause} \" it 's OK \" and then they 're done . And I think {pause} almost everyone would rather do that by email than any other method .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The other thing too is it seems like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um , yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Go ahead .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean , cuz you don't have to visit the web page if you don't want to .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker} Yeah , I guess we don't need their signature . I guess an email OK is alright .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh that was another thing I {disfmarker} I had assumed that we didn't need their signature , that it {disfmarker} that an email approval was sufficient . But {pause} I don't actually know .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are {disfmarker} are people going to be allowed to bleep out sections of a meeting where they weren't speaking ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yes . If someone feels strongly enough about it , then I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think they should be allowed to do that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I also {disfmarker} mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So that means other people are editing what you say ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh {pause} I don't know about that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know if I like that .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well , the only other choice is that the person would say \" no , don't distribute this meeting at all \" , and I would rather they were able to edit out other people then just say \" don't distribute it at all \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But th what they signed in the consent form , was something that said you can use my voice .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , but if {disfmarker} if someone is having a conversation , and you only bleep out one side of it , that 's not sufficient .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ? Yeah . Yeah , but that 's our decision then . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , I don't think so . I mean , because if I object to the conversation .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I think it is .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "If I say \" we were having a conversation , and I consider that conversation private , \" and I consider that your side of it is enough for other people to infer , I wanna be able to bleep out your side .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} I agree that the consent forms were {disfmarker} uh , I cons agree with what Adam 's saying , that {vocalsound} um , the consent form did leave open this possibility that they could edit things which they found offensive whe whether they said them or didn't say them .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I see . OK , well , if that 's what it said .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And the other thing is from the standpoint of the l of the l I 'm not a law lawyer , but it strikes me that {vocalsound} uh , we wouldn't want someone to say \" oh yes , I was a little concerned about it but {vocalsound} it was too hard to access \" . So I think it 's kind of nice to have this facility to listen to it . Now {disfmarker} in terms of like editing it by hand , I mean I think it 's {disfmarker} i some people would find that easier to specify the bleep part by having a document they edited . But {disfmarker} but it seems to me that sometimes um , you know i if a person had a bad day , and they had a tone in their voice that they didn't really like , you know it 's nice {disfmarker} it 's nice to be able to listen to it and be sure that that was OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean I can certainly provide a printable version if people want it . Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um {pause} I mean it 's also a mixture of people , I mean some people are r do their work primarily by sitting at the computer , flipping around the web , and others do not .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Others would consider it {disfmarker} this uh {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a set of skills that they would have to gain . You know ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I think most of the people in the meetings are the former .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It depends on what meetings .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So far .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "In the meetings so far , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But we 're trying to expand this , right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I actually think that paper is the more universal thing .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And that {disfmarker} Well , but if they want to print it out that 's alright .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I think everyone in the meeting can access the web .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I think we have to be able to print it out . It 's not just if they want to print it out . I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK , so does that mean that I can't use email ? Or what ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz you could send it through email you 're thinking .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I th", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "well {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} there was this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "well I don't think we can send the text through email because of the privacy issues .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good . For security ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um . So giving them , you think a web site to say , \" if you wanna print it out here it is \" , is not sufficient ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Good point . ", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah . I", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Certainly for everybody who 's been in the meetings so far it would be sufficient .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I 'm just thinking for people that that 's not sufficient for , what {disfmarker} the only sufficient thing would be for me to walk up to them and hand it to them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I 'm just wondering about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You could mail it to them .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Get an a mailing address .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Equivalent .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I think it 's easier to drop in the box .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Just put the button on {disfmarker} on the web page which say \" please send me the {disfmarker} the scripts \" .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh that 's interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What um {disfmarker} When you display it on the web page , what are {disfmarker} what are you showing them ? Utterances , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so can they bleep within an utterance ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "No . Whole utterances only .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Whole utterances .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And that was just convenience for my sake , that it 's uh , uh it would end up being fairly difficult to edit the transcripts if we would do it at the sub - utterance level . Because this way I can just delete an entire line out of a transcript file rather than have to do it by hand .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's another aspect to this which maybe {disfmarker} is part of why this is bothering me . Um , I think you 're really trying very hard to make this as convenient as possible for people to do this .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean that 's why I did the web form , because for me that would be my most convenient .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I understand .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I know where you 're going .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I think that 's the bad idea .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "See because you 're gon you 're {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Really . You 're gonna end up with all these little patchy things , whereas really what we want to do is have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the bias towards letting it go . Because nob you know it {disfmarker} There was a {disfmarker} one or twi once or twice , in the re in the meetings we 've heard , where somebody said something that they might be embarrassed by , but overall people are talking about technical topics . Nobody 's gonna get hurt . Nobody 's being l libeled . You know , this is {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're covering {disfmarker} We 're playing the lawyer 's game , and we 're playing we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're looking for the extreme case . If we really orient it towards that extreme case , make it really easy , we 're gonna end up encouraging a headache . That {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} I 'm sort of psyching myself out here , I {disfmarker} I 'm trying to {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I guess I don't see having a few phrases here and there in a meeting being that mu much of a headache , bleeped out .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I think what Morgan 's saying is the easier it is , the more is gonna be bleeped .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "but i And {disfmarker} and it really depends on what kind of research you 're doing . I think some researchers who are gonna be working with this corpus years from now are really gonna be cursing the fact that there 's a bunch of stuff in there {comment} that 's missing from the dialogue .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know , it depends on the kind of research they 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but it might be , uh {pause} it might be really a {disfmarker} a pain . And , you know where it 's really gonna hurt somebody , in some way {disfmarker} the one who said it or someone who is being spoken about , {comment} we definitely want to allow the option of it being bleeped out . But I really think we wanna make it the rare incidence . And {disfmarker} and uh , I am just a little worried about making it so easy for people to do , and so much fun ! {vocalsound} that they 're gonna go through and bleep out stuff .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So much fun .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "and they can bleep out stuff they don't like too , right from somebody else , as you say , you know , so \" well I didn't like what he said . \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I don't see any way of avoiding that . I mean , we have to provi we have promised that we would provide them the transcript and that they can remove parts that they don't like . So that the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No , no , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The only question is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You - you 've talked me into that , but I {disfmarker} I just think that we should make it harder to do .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The problem is if it 's harder for them it 's also harder for me . Whereas this web interface , I just get email , it 's all formatted , it 's all ready to go and I can just insert it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So maybe you don't give them access to the web interface unless they really need it . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I guess {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} So maybe this is a s a way out of it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You 've provided something that 's useful for you to do {disfmarker} handle , and useful for someone else if they need it . But I think the issue of privacy and ease and so forth should be that uh , they get access to this if they really need it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So you 're saying the {disfmarker} the sequence would be more like first Adam goes to the contact lists , contacts them via whatever their preferred method is , to see if they want to review the meeting .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And then if they don't , you 're done . If they do , then he provides them access to the {disfmarker} the web site .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well , to some extent I have to do that anyway because as I said we have to distribute passwords .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "W w", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} a printed - out form .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "y but you don't necessarily have to distribute passwords is what I 'm saying .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Only if they want it .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "what I 'm saying is that I can't just email them the password because that 's not secure . So they have to call me and ask .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , no , no . But you aren't necessarily giving them {disfmarker} Right . But {disfmarker} we don't even necessarily need to end up distributing passwords at all .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , we do because of privacy . We can't just make it openly available on the web .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , no . You 're missing the point .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "We 're {disfmarker} We 're trying i We 're trying to make it less of an obvious just l l l l uh fall off a log , to do this .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Not everyone gets a password , unless they ask for it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right ? So th so what I would see , is that first you contact them and ask them if they would like to review it for to check for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "not just for fun , OK ? but to {disfmarker} to check this for uh things that they 're worried about having said or if they 're willing to just send an approval of it , at {disfmarker} from their memory . Um {disfmarker} and , uh , and we should think carefully actually we should review {disfmarker} go through how that 's worded , OK ? Then , if someone uh {disfmarker} wants to review it , uh , and I know you don't like this , but I 'm offering this as a suggestion , is that {disfmarker} is that we then give them a print out . And then if they say that \" I have a potential problem with these things , \" then , you {disfmarker} you say \" OK well you might wanna hear this in context to s think if you need that , \" you issue them a password , i in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But the {disfmarker} the problem with what you 're suggesting is it 's not just inconvenient for them , it 's inconvenient for me . Because that means multiple contacts every time {disfmarker} for every single meeting every time anyone wants anything . I would much prefer to have all be automatic , they visit the web site if they want to . Obviously they don't have to .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I know you 'd prefer it , but the proble", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "we have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So I think you 're thinking people are going to arbitrarily start bleeping and I just don't think that 's gonna happen .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "there 's a problem with it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm also concerned about the spirit of the {disfmarker} of the informed consent thing . Cuz I think if they feel that uh , it 's {disfmarker} I th I th You know , if it turns out that something gets published in this corpus that someone really should have eliminated and didn't detect , then it could have been because of their own negligence that they didn't pursue that next level and get the password and do that , um , but {disfmarker} but they might be able to argue \" oh well it was cumbersome , and I was busy and it was gonna take me too much time to trace it down \" . So it could that the burden would come back onto us . So I 'm a little bit worried about uh , making it harder for them , from the legal standpoint .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well you can go too far in that direction , and you need to find somewhere between I think ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "It seems to me that sending them email , saying \" if you have an O - OK reply to this email and say OK ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "If you have a problem with it contact me and I 'll give you a password \" , seems like is a perfectly , reasonable compromise . And if they want a printout they can print it out themselves .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or we could print it up for them ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean we could offer that {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but there 's uh , another aspect to that and that is that in the informed consent form , um , my impression is that they {disfmarker} that we offered them at the very least that they definitely would have access to the transcript . And {disfmarker} and I ha", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know that there 's a chance of really skipping that stage . I mean I {disfmarker} I thought that you were {disfmarker} Maybe I misinterpreted what you said but it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Having access to it doesn't necessarily mean , that {disfmarker} having it", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Having it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Giving it to them .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well the in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ? It just means they have the right to have it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "the consent form is right in there if anyone wants to look at it ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright . Fine . OK . Fair enough .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "D you want me to grab one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sh - sh well I could {disfmarker} I 'm closer .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , but you 're wired", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "aren't you ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . That is true .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um . {vocalsound} Yeah , I mean I don't wanna fool them ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I just meant that e every {disfmarker} ev any time you say anything to anyone there is in fact a {disfmarker} a bias that is presented ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah {disfmarker} oh I know .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" If you agree to participate you 'll have the opportunity to have anything ex anything excised , which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "of {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's true . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "\" Once a transcript is available we will ask your permission to include the data in the corpus for the r larger research community .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There again you will be allowed to indicate any sections that you 'd prefer to have excised from the database , and they will m be removed both from the transcript and the recording . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Well that 's more open than I realized .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well , I mean it {disfmarker} The one question is definitely clear with anything as opposed to just what you said .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh no that {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} tha", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Tha - that 's true . That 's more severe , but the next one says the transcript will be around .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "that 's right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And it doesn't {comment} really say we 'll send it to you , or wi it 'll be available for you on the web , or anything .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I think it probably leaves it open how we get it to them .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "At least it more often . Yeah . It means also we don't have to g To give it to them . I mean like {disfmarker} like Morgan was saying they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "They just have to make sure that it is available to them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's available to them if they ask for it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , so . wh um {disfmarker} I think I have an idea that may be sat may satisfy both you and me in this which is , um , it 's a {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} we just go over carefully how these notes to people are worded . So I {disfmarker} I just want it to be worded in such a way where it gives the strong impre it gives very , I mean nothing hidden , v very strongly the bias that we would really like to use all of these data .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} that we really would rather it wasn't a patchwork of things tossed out ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "that it would be better for , um , our , uh , field if that is the case . But if you really think something is gonna {disfmarker} And I don't think there 's anything in the legal aspects that {disfmarker} that is hurt by our expressing that bias .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Great . Great , great .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} then my concern about {disfmarker} which {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I agree .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "you know you might be right , it may be it was just paranoia on my part , uh but people just {disfmarker} See I 'm @ @ worried about this interface so much fun {vocalsound} that people start bleeping stuff out {comment} {vocalsound} just as {disfmarker} just because they can .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It 's just a check box next to the text , it 's not any fun at all .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well I don't know . I kind of had fun when you played me something that was bleeped out . You know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , but they won't get that feedback .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "All {disfmarker} no because it doesn't automatically bleep it at the time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh they won't ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It just sends me {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh good . So you haven't made it so much fun .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh good .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It just sends me the time intervals .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And then at some point I 'll incorporate them all and put bleeps . I mean I don't wanna have t ha do that yet until we actually release the data", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "because um , then we have to have two copies of every meeting and we 're already short on disk space .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I wanna {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} just keep the times until we actually wanna release the data and then we bleep it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Alright , so I think {disfmarker} Yeah so if we have if {disfmarker} i Again let 's you know , sort of circulate the {disfmarker} the wording on each of these things and get it right ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well since you seem to feel heart uh , strongest about it , would you like to do the first pass ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} OK . Uh , fair enough . Turn about is fair play ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Al - Also it ther there is this other question , the legal question that {disfmarker} that Adam 's raised , uh about whether we need a concrete signature , or email c i suffices or whatever", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and I don't know how that works . i There 's something down there about \" if you agree to {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I thought about it with one of my background processes", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and I {disfmarker} uh it 's {disfmarker} uh it 's uh , it 's fine to do the email .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Ah . Fine .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah because thi th they 're signing here that they 're agreeing to the paragraph which says \" you 'll be given an opportunity . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good . OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And so I don't think they need another signature .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Well and furthermore I {disfmarker} it 's now fairly routine in a lot of arrangements that I do with people on contracts and so forth that {disfmarker} that uh if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's that sort of thing where you 're you 're saying uh \" OK I agree , we want eighty hours of this person at such - and - such amount , and I agree that 's OK , \" uh if it 's a follow up to some other agreement where there was a signature it 's often done in email now", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so it 's {disfmarker} it 's OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So I guess I probably should at the minimum , think about how to present it in a printed form . I 'm not really sure what 's best with that . The problem is a lot of them are really short ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "and so I don't necessarily wanna do one per line . But I don't know how else to do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well I s I also have this {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice you have it uh , viewab her {comment} hearable on the {disfmarker} on the web for those who might wonder about um , the non nonverbal side , I mean I {disfmarker} I agree that our bias should be as {disfmarker} as expressed here , and {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice that a person could check . Cuz sometimes you know you {disfmarker} the words on a {disfmarker} on the page , come out soun sounding different in terms of the {pause} social dynamics if they hear it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And I realize we shouldn't emphasize that people {comment} you know , shouldn't borrow trouble . What it comes down to but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah I think actually {disfmarker} my opinion probably is that the only time someone will need to listen to it is if the transcript is uh not good . You know , if {disfmarker} if there are lots of mumbles and parentheses and things like that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , you know , or what if there was an error in the transcript that didn't get detected and there was a whole uh {disfmarker} i segment a against some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} personal {vocalsound} i th", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right . That was all mumbled ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think Microsoft is", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah exactly", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sorry transcribers .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even {disfmarker} {vocalsound} or even {comment} there was a {disfmarker} a line you know about how \" hmm - mmm - mmm {comment} Bill Gates duh - duh - duh - duh . \"", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but it was all {disfmarker} the words were all visible , but they didn't end up i some there was a slip in the transcript .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , God .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "They 're gonna hate this meeting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Actually Liz will like it . You know , but .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Liz will like it . We had a pretty strong disagreement going there .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep , yep , that 's right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So I don't know . I mean , I {disfmarker} I guess we 're assuming that the transcript is a close enough approximation and that {disfmarker} that my double checking will be {pause} so close to absolutely perfect that it {disfmarker} that nothing will slip by .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} some something might sometime , and they {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's something that they said , they might {disfmarker} i i I mean , you might be very accurate in putting down what they actually said ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "but , when they hear it , themselves , they may hear something different because they know what they meant .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know how to notate that .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Sarcasm ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "how do you {disfmarker} how do you indicate sarcasm ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's right .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "No , I 'm serious . So {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} i the {disfmarker} so we might {disfmarker} we might get some feedback from people that such - and - such was , you know , not {disfmarker} not really what I said .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well that would be good to get , definitely .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , but , Yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Just for corrections .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So um , in terms of password distribution , I think phone is really the only way to do it , phone and in person . Or mail , physical mail .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or if for leave it on their voice mail .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Any sub - word level thing . ", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Any sub - wor Yeah , OK . I mean you could do it with PGP or things like that but it 's too complex .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know I just realized something , which is of {disfmarker} e th this question about the {disfmarker} uh the possible mismatch of {disfmarker} I mean i well , and actually also the lawyer saying that um , we shouldn't really have them {disfmarker} have the people believing that they will be cleared by our checks . You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean . So it 's like i in a way it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to have the responsibility still on them to listen to the tape and {disfmarker} and hear the transcript , to have that be the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well yeah , but you can't dep I mean , most people will not wanna take the time to do that , though .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , fair enough . And they 're s they 're absorbing the responsibility themselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And they {disfmarker} they have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not um {disfmarker} Yeah , good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "But I mean if you were at a meeting , and {disfmarker} and you {disfmarker} you don't think , at least , that you said anything funny and the meeting was about , you know , some {disfmarker} some funny thing about semantics or something , or uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You probably won't listen to it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It is true that tec that the content is technical , I {disfmarker} and so i and we 're not having these discussions which {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , when I listen to these things , I don't find things that are questionable , in other people 's speech or in my own .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah . You would think it would be rare ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} It should be very rare .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean we 're not talking about the energy crisis or something , people have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "How about them energy crises .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think we 're uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Done ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Kind of done . Actually , I was gonna {disfmarker} Di - Did you have anything n that 's going on , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Not really . No . Um , {vocalsound} my project is going along but um , I 'm really just here to um fill the project uh {disfmarker} the overall progress . I don't really have anything specific to {disfmarker} to talk about .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's fine . I just didn't wanna go by you , if you had something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You don't have anything to say .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": " ", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Transcribers , he was rattling the b marbles in his brain back and forth just then this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Shall we do digits ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , oh by the way I did find a bunch {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It um", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh , we should count out how many more digits to forms do we have back there ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There were quite a few . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "That 's what I thought . I f I was going through them all and I found actually a lot filed in with them , that were blanks , that no one had actually read .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And so we still have more than I thought we did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh good .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So , we have a few more digits before we 're done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know having this headset reminds me of like working at Burger King or something .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , did you do that ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Burger King", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I 'd like a burger with that ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No I never did .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "do you want fries with that ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But I feel like I could now .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And {pause}", "speaker": "Grad C" } ]

[ { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So are you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Are we going ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It is uh , must be February fifteenth .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yu I think the date 's written in there , yep . And actually if everyone could cross out the R - nine next to \" Session \" , and write MR eleven .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We didn't have a front - end meeting today .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And let 's remember also to make sure that one 's {comment} gets marked as unread , unused .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "MR eleven .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "MR eleven .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That sounds like a spy code .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mmm . OK . So .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There 's lots of clicking I 'm sure as I 'm trying to get this to work {pause} correctly .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Agenda . Any agenda items today ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I wanna talk a little bit about getting {disfmarker} how we 're gonna to get people to edit bleeps , parts of the meeting that they don't want to include . What I 've done so far , and I wanna get some opinions on , how to {disfmarker} how to finish it up .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I wanna ask about um , some aud audio monitoring on some of the {pause} um {pause} well some of the equipment . In particular , the {disfmarker} well uh , that 's just what I wanna ask .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK audio monitoring , Jane .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Ba - based on some of the tran uh {disfmarker} i In listening to {pause} some of these meetings that have already been recorded there are sometimes big spikes on particular things , and in pact {disfmarker} in fact this one I 'm talking on is one of {disfmarker} of the ones that showed up in one of the meetings ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh really .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "\" Spikes \" , you mean like uh , instantaneous click type spikes , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Spikes ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Clicks .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And I don't know what the e electronics is but .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well , I think it 's", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Touching .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh , it {disfmarker} it could be a number of things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It could be touching and fiddling , and the other thing is that it could {disfmarker} the fact that it 's on a wired mike is suspicious . It might be a connector .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , OK . Well maybe {disfmarker} Then we don't really have to talk about that as an {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You could try an experiment and say \" OK , I 'm about to test for spikes \" ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I take that off the agenda .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "and then wiggle the thing there , and then go and when they go to transcribe it , it could , ask them to come and get you .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Come get me when you transcribe this and see if there 's spikes . \"", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Oh that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "No I 'm just {disfmarker} ", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean , were this a professional audio recording , {vocalsound} what we would do {disfmarker} {comment} what you would do is {disfmarker} in testing it is , you would actually do all this wiggling and make sure that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that things are not giving that kind of performance . And if they are , then they can't be used .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . Um . Let 's see . I guess {pause} I would like to have a discussion about you know where we are on uh , recording , transcription you know , basically you know where we are on the corpus .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And then um , the other thing which I would like to talk about which is a real meta - quest , I think , deal is , uh , agendas . So maybe I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll start with that actually . Uh , um . {vocalsound} Andreas brought up the fact that he would kinda like to know , if possible , what we were gonna be talking about because he 's sort of peripherally involved to this point , and if there 's gonna be a topic about {disfmarker} discussion about something that he uh strongly cares about then he would come and {disfmarker} And I think part of {disfmarker} part of his motivation with this is that he 's trying to help us out , in the {disfmarker} because of uh the fact that the meetings are {disfmarker} are tending to become reasonably large now on days when everybody shows up and so , he figures he could help that out by not showing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and I 'm sure help out his own time . by not showing up if it 's a meeting that he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} So , uh in order {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} I think that this is a wish on his part . Uh . It 's actually gonna be hard because it seems like a lot of times uh things come up that are unanticipated and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But um , we could try anyway , uh , do another try at coming up with the agenda uh , at some point before the meeting , uh , say the day before .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well maybe it would be a good idea for one of us to {pause} like on Wednesday , or Tuesday send out a reminder for people to send in agenda items .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK . You {disfmarker} you wanna volunteer to do that ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Alright so we 'll send out agenda request .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Let me", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} I think that 'll help {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I 'll put that on my spare brain or it will not {pause} get done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 'll help a lot , actually .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have to tell you for the uh {disfmarker} for the admin meeting that we have , Lila does that um every time before an admin meeting . And uh , she ends up getting the agenda requests uh , uh ten minutes before the meeting . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} {comment} But . Uh . {comment} But we can try . Maybe it 'll work .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe . Weirder things have happened .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm wondering if he were to just , uh , specify particular topics , I mean . Maybe we 'd be able to meet that request of his a little more .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I would {disfmarker} I would also guess that as we get more into processing the data and things like that there 'll be more things of interest to him .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Actually it {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this maybe brings up another topic which is um {disfmarker} So we 're done with that topic . The other topic I was thinking of was the sta status on microphones and channels , and all that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , actually I {disfmarker} I was going to say we need to {pause} talk about that too .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Why {disfmarker} why don't we do that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK . Um , the new microphones , the two new ones are in . Um . {pause} And they are being assembled as we speak , I hope . And I didn't bring my car today so I 'm gonna pick them up tomorrow . Um , and then the other question I was thinking about is {disfmarker} well , a couple things . First of all , if the other headsets are a lot more comfortable , we should probably just go ahead and get them . So we 'll have to evaluate that when they come in ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and get people 's opinions on {disfmarker} on what they think of them . Um , then the other question I had is maybe we should get another wireless . Another wireless setup . I mean it 's expensive , but it does seem to be {pause} better than the wired .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So how many channels do you get to have in a wireless setup ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , well , I 'm pretty sure that you can daisy - chain them together so what we would do is replace the wired mikes with wireless . So we currently have one base station with six wireless mike , possibility of six wireless receivers , and apparently you can chain those together . And so we could replace our wired mikes with wireless if we bought another base station and more wireless mikes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So , you know it 's still , it 's fifteen minus six .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So let 's see we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right ? So we could have up to nine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And right now we can have up to six .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right . And we have five , we 're getting one more .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And it 's um , about nine hundred dollars for the base station , and then eight hundred per channel .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh . So yeah so the only {disfmarker} Beyond the mike {disfmarker} the cost of the mikes the only thing is the base station that 's nine hundred dollars .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , we should do it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK . OK , so I 'll look into how you daisy - chain them and {disfmarker} and then just go ahead and order them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't quite understand how that {disfmarker} how that works , . If {disfmarker} So we 're not increasing the number of channels . OK .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "No , we 're just replacing the wired {disfmarker} the two wired that are still working ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . I see .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "along with a couple of the wired that aren't working , one of the wired that 's not working , with a wireless .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Three wireds work ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Basically we found {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I guess three wireds work , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we 've had more problems with that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And that sort of bypasses the whole {disfmarker} the whole Jimbox thing and all that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so um , we {disfmarker} we seem to have uh , a reliable way of getting the data in , which is through the ra Sony radio mikes , as long as we 're conscious about the batteries .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That seems to be the key issue .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Everyone 's battery OK ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I checked them this morning , they should be .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , {vocalsound} That 's the only thing with them . But the quality seems really good and {disfmarker} Um I heard from UW that they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh very close to getting their , uh setup purchased . They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're buying something that you can just sort of buy off the shelf .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well we should talk to them about it because I know that SRI is also in the process of looking at stuff , and so , you know , what we should try to keep everyone {disfmarker} on the same page with that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "SRI , really ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "They got sa apparent Well , Maybe {pause} this needs to be bleeped out ? I have no clue .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know how much of it 's public .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Probably we shouldn't {disfmarker} probably we shouldn't talk about funding stuff .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . But anyway there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's uh , uh other activities that are going on there and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} and NIST and UW . So . Um . But {disfmarker} but yeah I thin I think that at least the message we can tell other people is that our experience is {disfmarker} is quite positive with the Sony ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "uh , radio - mikes . Now the one thing that you have said that actually concerns me a little is you 're talking about changing the headsets meaning changing the connector , which means some hand - soldering or something , right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , no , we 're having the {disfmarker} them do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So it 's so hand - soldering it , but I 'm not doing it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , they {disfmarker} they charge", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Nothing against you and your hand - soldering", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You 've never seen my hand - soldering . But uh , a as I said they 're coming in .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , so that 's being done professionally and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "As professionally as I guess you can get it done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , it could {disfmarker} if they do a lot of it , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean i it 's just their repair shop . Right ? Their maintenance people .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , we 'll see what it {disfmarker} it 's like .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} tha that can be quite good . Th - this {disfmarker} Yeah , OK . Good . Yeah . So let 's go with that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And , I mean we 'll see , tomorrow , you know , what it looks like .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , Yeah . So , um , uh , Dave isn't here but he was going to start working on some things with the digits . Uh , so he 'll be interested in what 's going on with that . I guess {disfmarker} Was {disfmarker} the decision last time was that the {disfmarker} the uh transcribers were going to be doing stuff with the digits as well ? Has that started , or is that {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah . Uh , it would be to use his interface and I was going to meet with him today about that .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right , so , the decision was that Jane did not want the transcribers to be doing any of the paperwork . So I did the {disfmarker} all that last week . So all the {disfmarker} all the forms are now {pause} on the computer . And uh , then I have a bunch of scripts that we 'll read those and let the uh {pause} transcribers use different tools . And I just want to talk to Jane about how we transition to using those .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So he has a nice set up that they {disfmarker} it w it will be efficient for them to do that .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think it 'll take too long .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So anyway {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , you know , just uh , a matter of a few days I suspect .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So anyway I think we {disfmarker} we have at least one uh , user for the digits once they get done , which will be Dave .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right . I 've already done five or six {pause} sets .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So if he wanted to , you know , just have a few to start with , he could . You know , and I also have a bunch of scripts that will , like , generate P - files and run recognition on them also .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , he might {disfmarker} he might be asking {disfmarker} Right . OK . Uh , is Dave {disfmarker} I don't know if Dave is on the list , if he 's invited to these meetings , uh if he knows .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't tend to get an invitation myself for them even .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , we don't have a active one but I 'll make sure he 's on the list .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Should we call him ? I mean is he {disfmarker} d is he definitely not available today ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Should I call his office and see ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "He was in .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean , he 's still taking classes , so uh , he may well have conflicts .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , well i it 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , he was in {pause} s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He wasn't there at cof", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so this might be a conflict for him .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK . Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah didn't he say his signal - processing class was like {pause} Tuesdays and Thursdays ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I think he has a class . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . He might have .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Oh well , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You talking about David Gelbart ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think he 's taking two twenty - five A which is now .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK . So , that 's why we 're not seeing him . OK . Uh , transcriptions , uh , beyond the digits , where we are , and so on .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the recordings also ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "just where we are . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , so um , should we {disfmarker} we don't wan wanna do the recording status first , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well , we have about thirty - two hours uh as of , I guess a week and a half ago , so we probably now have about thirty - five hours .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh {disfmarker} How much of that is digits ? It 's uh {disfmarker} that 's including digits ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's including digits .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I haven't separated it out so I have no clue how much of that is digits .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . So anyway there 's at least probably thirty hours , or something of {disfmarker} There 's got to be more than thirty hour {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Of {disfmarker} of non - digits ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "i it couldn't {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} Of non - digits .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , absolutely . I mean , the digits don't take up that much time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK , and the transcribers h I , uh , don't have the exact numbers , but I {pause} think it would come to about eleven hours that are finished uh , transcribing from them right now . The next step is to {disfmarker} that I 'm working on is to insure that the data are clean first , and then channelized . What I mean by clean is that they 're spell - checked , that the mark - up is consistent all the way throughout , and also that we now incorporate these additional conventions that uh , Liz requested in terms of um , um {pause} in terms of having a s a systematic handling of numbers , and acronyms which I hadn't been specific about . Um , for example , i they 'll say uh \" ninety - two \" . And you know , so how {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Nine two ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "e Exactly .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So if you just say \" nine two \" , the {disfmarker} there are many s ways that could have been expressed . An - and I just had them {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , a certain number of them did put the words down , but now we have a convention which also involves having it followed by , um , a gloss th and things .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You know , Jane ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , one suggestion and you may already be doing this , but I 've noticed in the past that when I 've gone through transcriptions and you know in {disfmarker} in order to build lexicons and things , if you um , just take all the transcriptions and separate them into words and then alphabetize them , {comment} a lot of times just scanning down that list you 'll find a lot of {pause} inconsistencies and mis", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Misspelled .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 're talking about the type token frequency listings , and I use those too . Y you mean just uh {pause} on each {disfmarker} on each line there 's a one word right ? It 's one token from the {disfmarker} from the corpus .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , those are e extremely efficient and I and I {disfmarker} I agree that 's a very good use of it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh so you already have that , OK .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well that 's {disfmarker} that 's a way {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} You know , the spell - check basically does that but {disfmarker} but in addition {disfmarker} yes , that 's {disfmarker} that 's exactly the strategy I wanna do in terms of locating these things which are you know colloquial spoken forms which aren't in the lexicon .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Cuz a lot of times they 'll appear next to each other , and uh ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Exactly . And then you ca then you can do a s", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "i in alphabetized lists , they 'll appear next to each other and {disfmarker} and so it makes it easier .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Absolutely . I agree . That 's a very good {disfmarker} that 's a very good uh , suggestion . And that was {disfmarker} that 's my strategy for handling a lot of these things , in terms of things that need to be glossed . I didn't get to that point but {disfmarker} So there are numbers , then there are acronyms , and then um , there 's a {disfmarker} he she wants the uh , actually a {disfmarker} an explicit marker of what type of comment this is , so i curly b inside the curly brackets I 'm gonna put either \" VOC \" for vocalized , like cough or like laugh or whatever , \" NONVOC \" for door - slam , and \" GLOSS \" for things that have to do with {disfmarker} if they said a s a spoken form with this {disfmarker} m this pronunciation error .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I already had that convention", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh that 's great .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "but I {disfmarker} I haven't been asking these people to do it systematically cuz I think it most {disfmarker} ha most efficiently handled by uh {disfmarker} by a {disfmarker} a filter . That was what I was always planing on . So that , you know you get a whole long list {disfmarker} exactly what you 're saying , you get a whole list of things that say \" curly bracket laugh curly bracket \" ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "then y you know it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you risk less error if you handle it by a filter , than if you have this transcriber ch laboriously typing in sort of a VOC space ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "so man So many ways that error prone .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So , um , {vocalsound} um I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm going to convert that via a filter , into these tagged uh , subcategorized comments , and same thing with you know , we see you get a subset when you do what you 're saying ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "you end up with a s with uh , you 're collapsing across a frequency you just have the tokens", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and you can um , have a filter which more efficiently makes those changes . But the numbers and acronyms have to be handled by hand , because , you know I mean , jus", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You don't know what they could be .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah now TIMIT 's clear um {pause} and PLP is clear but uh there are things that are not so well known , in {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or have variant {disfmarker} u u uses like the numbers you can say \" nine two \" or you can say \" ninety - two \" ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So how are you doing the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and uh I 'd handle the numbers individually .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "How are you doing the uh , acronyms so if I say PZM what would it appear on the transcript ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It would be separate {disfmarker} The letters would be separated in space", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and potentially they 'll have a curly bracket thing afterwards e but I 'm not sure if that 's necessary , clarifying what it is ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so gloss of {pause} whatever .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know if that 's really necessary to do that . Maybe it 's a nice thing to do because of it then indicating this is uh , a step away from i indicating that it really is intentional that those spaces are there , and indicating why they 're there to indicate that it 's uh {vocalsound} the you know , {comment} uh enumerated , or i", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "it 's not a good way of saying {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} it 's the {vocalsound} specific uh way of stating these {disfmarker} these letters .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right . So it sounds good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so anyway , the clean {disfmarker} those are those things and then channelized is to then um , get it into this multichannel format . And at that point then it 's ready for use by Liz and Don . But that 's been my top priority {disfmarker} beyond getting it tanel channelized , the next step is to work on tightening up the boundaries of the time bins .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And uh , Thilo had a {disfmarker} e e a breakthrough with this {disfmarker} this last week in terms of getting the channel - based um uh s s speech - nonspeech segmentation um , up and running and I haven't {disfmarker} I haven't been able to use that yet cuz I 'm working s re this is my top priority {disfmarker} get the data clean , and channelized .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I actually gave", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Have you also been doing spot checks , Jane ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Okay , good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well you see that 's part of the cleaning process . I spent um actually um I have a segment of ten minutes that was transcribed by two of our transcribers ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh good . Good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and I went through it last night , it 's {disfmarker} it 's almost spooky how similar these are , word for word . And there are some differences in commas cuz commas I {disfmarker} I left them discretion at commas .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} and so because it 's not part of our st of our ne needed conventions .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And um , and {disfmarker} so they 'll be a difference in commas , but it 's word - by - word the same , in {disfmarker} in huge patches of the data . And I have t ten minute stretch where I can {disfmarker} where I can show that . And {disfmarker} and sometimes it turns out that one of these transcribers has a better ear for technical jargon , and the other one has a better ear for colloquial speech . So um , the one i i the colloquial speech person picked up \" gobbledy - gook \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And the other one didn't . And on this side , this one 's picking up things like \" neural nets \" and the one that 's good on the sp o on th the vocabulary on the uh colloquial didn't .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "When {disfmarker} for the person who missed \" gobbledy - gook \" what did they put ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "It was an interesting approximation , put in parentheses , cuz I have this convention that , i if they 're not sure what it was , they put it in parentheses .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So they tried to approximate it , but it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh good .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "it was spelled GABBL {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Sort of how it sounds . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yes . More of an attempt to {disfmarker} I mean apparently it was very clear to her that these {disfmarker} the a this {disfmarker} this was a sound {disfmarker} these are the sounds ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "It was a technical term that she didn't recognize ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . But she knew that she didn't know it . Maybe it was a technical ter exactly . But she {disfmarker} even though her technical perception is just really {disfmarker} uh you know I 've {disfmarker} I 'm tempted to ask her if she 's taken any courses in this area or if she 's taken cognitive science courses", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "then cuz \" neural nets \" and {disfmarker} oh she has some things that are {disfmarker} oh \" downsampled \" , she got that right .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And some of these are rather {pause} uh unexpected .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Obscure , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But ch ten solid uh {disfmarker} m ch s chunk of ten solid minutes where they both coded the same data .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and again the main track that you 're working with is elev eleven hours ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Is that right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yes exactly .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And that 's part of this {disfmarker} Eleven hours .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Is that {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} that including digits ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yes it is .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So let 's say roughly {pause} ten hours or so of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean it 's probably more than that but {disfmarker} but with {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of non - digits .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 'd be more than that because I {disfmarker} my recollection is the minutes {disfmarker} that da digits don't take more than half a minute . Per person .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But um {pause} the {disfmarker} the total set that I gave them is twelve hours of tape ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , I see .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But they haven't gotten to the end of that yet .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , I see .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So they 're still working {disfmarker} some of them are {disfmarker} Two of them are still working on completing that . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Boy , they 're moving right along .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . They are . Mm - hmm . They 're very efficient . There 're some who have more hours that they devote to it than others .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what 's the deal with {disfmarker} with your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The channel u thing ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's just uh , I ran the recognizer {disfmarker} uh , the {pause} {comment} speech - nonspeech detector on different channels and , it 's just in uh {disfmarker} in this new multi - channel format and output , and I just gave one {disfmarker} one meeting to {disfmarker} to Liz who wanted to {disfmarker} to try it for {disfmarker} for the recognizer", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , I see .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "as uh , apparently the recognizer had problems with those long chunks of speech , which took too much memory or whatever ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and so {pause} she {disfmarker} she will try that I think", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm working on it . So , I hope {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is this anything different than the HMM system you were using before ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No . Uh , I {pause} mmm , use some {disfmarker} some different features but not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The basic thing is this HMM base .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So there 's still no {disfmarker} no knowledge using different channels at the same time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There is some , uh as the energy is normalized across channels", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You know what I mean ? Across all of them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . But basically that 's one of the main changes .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . What are some of the other features ? Besides the energy ? You said you 're trying some different features , or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh I just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mmm , I just use um our loudness - based things now as they {disfmarker} before there were {disfmarker} they were some in {disfmarker} in the log domain and I {disfmarker} I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cu - Cube root ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . To {disfmarker} No , I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker} to the loudness thingy with the {disfmarker} with the", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "how do you call it ? I 'm not sure . With the , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Fletcher Munson ? No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm not sure about the term .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , I 'll look it up . And say it to you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , alright .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , and {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} that 's basically the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing . Yeah , and I {disfmarker} and I tried t to normalize uh {disfmarker} uh the features , there 's loudness and modified loudness , um , within one channel ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "because they 're , {vocalsound} yeah to {disfmarker} to be able to distinguish between foreground and background speech . And it works quite well . But , not always .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , let 's see . I think the uh {disfmarker} Were {disfmarker} were you basically done with the transcription part ? So I guess the next thing is this uh {disfmarker} bleep editing .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} The idea is that we need to have {disfmarker} We need to provide the transcripts to every participant of every meeting to give them an opportunity to bleep out sections they don't want . So I 've written a bunch of tools that will generate web pages , uh with the transcription in it so that they can click on them and piece {disfmarker} pieces and they can scroll through and read them , and then they can check on each one if they want it excluded . And then , it 's a form , HTML form , so they can submit it and it will end up sending me email with the times that they want excluded . And so , uh , some of the questions on this is what do we do about the privacy issue . And so I thought about this a little bit and I think the best way to do it is every participant will have a password ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "a single password . Each person will have a single password , user name and password . And then each meeting , we 'll only allow the participants who were at that meeting to look at it . And that way each person only has to remember one password .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I can't help but wonder if this is maybe a little more elaborate than is needed . I mean if people have {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , for me I would actually want to have some pieces of paper that had the transcription and I would sort of flip through it . And then {pause} um {pause} if I thought it was OK , I 'd say \" it 's OK \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And , I {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean it depends how this really ends up working out , but I guess my thought was that the occasion of somebody wondering whether something was OK or not and needing to listen to it was gonna be extremely rare .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right , I mean so th th th the fact that you could listen to it over the web is a minor thing that I had already done for {pause} other reasons .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And so that {disfmarker} that 's a minor part of it , I just wanted some web interface so that people {disfmarker} you didn't actually have to send everyone the text . So m what my intention to do is that as the transcripts become ready , um {pause} I would take them , and generate the web pages and send email to every participant or contact them using the contact method they wanted , and just uh , tell them , \" here 's the web page \" , um , \" you need a password \" . So th th question number one is how do we distribute the passwords , and question number two is how else do we wanna provide this information if they want it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} I think what I was sort of saying is that if you just say {vocalsound} \" here is a {disfmarker} here is {disfmarker} \" I mean this maybe it sounds paleolithic but {disfmarker} but I just thought if you handed them some sheets of paper , that said , uh , \" here 's what was said in this transcription is it OK with you ? and if it is , here 's this other sheet of paper that you sign that says that it 's OK \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I think that um there are a subset of people who will want printouts that we can certainly provide .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And then they 'd hand it back to you .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But certainly I wouldn't want a printout . These are big , and I would much rather be {pause} ha be able to just sit and leaf through it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You find it easier to go through a large {disfmarker} I mean how do you read books ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I certainly read books by hand . But for something like this , I think it 's easier to do it on the web .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Really ? I mean , it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Cuz you 're gonna get , you know , if I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm in a bunch of meetings and I don't wanna get a stack of these . I wanna just be able to go to {disfmarker} go to the web site {comment} and visit it as I want .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Going to a web site is easy , but flipping through a hundred pounds {disfmarker} a hundred pages of stuff is not easy on the web .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think it 's that much harder than , paper . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I have one question . So are you thinking that um the person would have a transcript and go strictly from the transcript ? Because I {disfmarker} I do think that there 's a benefit to being able to hear the tone of voice and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So here 's the way I was imagining it , and maybe I 'm wrong ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "but the way I imagined it was that um , the largest set of people is gonna go \" oh yeah , I didn't say anything funny in that meeting just go ahead , where 's the {disfmarker} where 's the release ? \" And then there 'll be a subset of people , right ? {disfmarker} OK there 's {disfmarker} I mean think of who it is we 've been recording mostly .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK there 'll be a subset of people , who um , will say uh \" well , yeah , I really would like to see that . \" And for them , the easiest way to flip through , if it 's a really large document , I mean unless you 're searching . Searching , of course , should be electronic , but if you 're not {disfmarker} so if you provide some search mechanism you go to every place they said something or something like that ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but see then we 're getting more elaborate with this thing . Um if {disfmarker} if uh you don't have search mechanisms you just sort of have this really , really long document , I mean whenever I 've had a really , really long document that it was sitting on the web , I 've always ended up printing it out . I mean , so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean , you {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're not necessarily gonna be sitting at the desk all the time , you wanna figure you have a train ride , and there 's all these situations where {disfmarker} where I {disfmarker} I mean , this is how I was imagining it , anyway . And then I figured , that out of that group , there would be a subset who would go \" hmm you know I 'm really not sure about this section here , \" and then that group would need it {disfmarker} S It seems like i if I 'm right in that , it seems like you 're setting it up for the most infrequent case , rather than for the most frequent case . So that uh , now we have to worry about privacy ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , no fre for the most {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "we have to worry about all these passwords , for different people", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "For the most frequent case they just say {pause} \" it 's OK \" and then they 're done . And I think {pause} almost everyone would rather do that by email than any other method .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The other thing too is it seems like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um , yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Go ahead .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean , cuz you don't have to visit the web page if you don't want to .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker} Yeah , I guess we don't need their signature . I guess an email OK is alright .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh that was another thing I {disfmarker} I had assumed that we didn't need their signature , that it {disfmarker} that an email approval was sufficient . But {pause} I don't actually know .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are {disfmarker} are people going to be allowed to bleep out sections of a meeting where they weren't speaking ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yes . If someone feels strongly enough about it , then I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think they should be allowed to do that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I also {disfmarker} mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So that means other people are editing what you say ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh {pause} I don't know about that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know if I like that .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well , the only other choice is that the person would say \" no , don't distribute this meeting at all \" , and I would rather they were able to edit out other people then just say \" don't distribute it at all \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But th what they signed in the consent form , was something that said you can use my voice .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , but if {disfmarker} if someone is having a conversation , and you only bleep out one side of it , that 's not sufficient .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ? Yeah . Yeah , but that 's our decision then . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , I don't think so . I mean , because if I object to the conversation .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I think it is .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "If I say \" we were having a conversation , and I consider that conversation private , \" and I consider that your side of it is enough for other people to infer , I wanna be able to bleep out your side .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} I agree that the consent forms were {disfmarker} uh , I cons agree with what Adam 's saying , that {vocalsound} um , the consent form did leave open this possibility that they could edit things which they found offensive whe whether they said them or didn't say them .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I see . OK , well , if that 's what it said .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And the other thing is from the standpoint of the l of the l I 'm not a law lawyer , but it strikes me that {vocalsound} uh , we wouldn't want someone to say \" oh yes , I was a little concerned about it but {vocalsound} it was too hard to access \" . So I think it 's kind of nice to have this facility to listen to it . Now {disfmarker} in terms of like editing it by hand , I mean I think it 's {disfmarker} i some people would find that easier to specify the bleep part by having a document they edited . But {disfmarker} but it seems to me that sometimes um , you know i if a person had a bad day , and they had a tone in their voice that they didn't really like , you know it 's nice {disfmarker} it 's nice to be able to listen to it and be sure that that was OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean I can certainly provide a printable version if people want it . Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um {pause} I mean it 's also a mixture of people , I mean some people are r do their work primarily by sitting at the computer , flipping around the web , and others do not .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Others would consider it {disfmarker} this uh {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a set of skills that they would have to gain . You know ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I think most of the people in the meetings are the former .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It depends on what meetings .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So far .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "In the meetings so far , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But we 're trying to expand this , right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I actually think that paper is the more universal thing .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And that {disfmarker} Well , but if they want to print it out that 's alright .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I think everyone in the meeting can access the web .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I think we have to be able to print it out . It 's not just if they want to print it out . I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK , so does that mean that I can't use email ? Or what ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz you could send it through email you 're thinking .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I th", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "well {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} there was this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "well I don't think we can send the text through email because of the privacy issues .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good . For security ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um . So giving them , you think a web site to say , \" if you wanna print it out here it is \" , is not sufficient ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Good point . ", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah . I", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Certainly for everybody who 's been in the meetings so far it would be sufficient .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I 'm just thinking for people that that 's not sufficient for , what {disfmarker} the only sufficient thing would be for me to walk up to them and hand it to them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I 'm just wondering about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You could mail it to them .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Get an a mailing address .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Equivalent .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I think it 's easier to drop in the box .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Just put the button on {disfmarker} on the web page which say \" please send me the {disfmarker} the scripts \" .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh that 's interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What um {disfmarker} When you display it on the web page , what are {disfmarker} what are you showing them ? Utterances , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so can they bleep within an utterance ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "No . Whole utterances only .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Whole utterances .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And that was just convenience for my sake , that it 's uh , uh it would end up being fairly difficult to edit the transcripts if we would do it at the sub - utterance level . Because this way I can just delete an entire line out of a transcript file rather than have to do it by hand .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's another aspect to this which maybe {disfmarker} is part of why this is bothering me . Um , I think you 're really trying very hard to make this as convenient as possible for people to do this .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean that 's why I did the web form , because for me that would be my most convenient .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I understand .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I know where you 're going .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I think that 's the bad idea .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "See because you 're gon you 're {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Really . You 're gonna end up with all these little patchy things , whereas really what we want to do is have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the bias towards letting it go . Because nob you know it {disfmarker} There was a {disfmarker} one or twi once or twice , in the re in the meetings we 've heard , where somebody said something that they might be embarrassed by , but overall people are talking about technical topics . Nobody 's gonna get hurt . Nobody 's being l libeled . You know , this is {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're covering {disfmarker} We 're playing the lawyer 's game , and we 're playing we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're looking for the extreme case . If we really orient it towards that extreme case , make it really easy , we 're gonna end up encouraging a headache . That {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} I 'm sort of psyching myself out here , I {disfmarker} I 'm trying to {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I guess I don't see having a few phrases here and there in a meeting being that mu much of a headache , bleeped out .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I think what Morgan 's saying is the easier it is , the more is gonna be bleeped .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "but i And {disfmarker} and it really depends on what kind of research you 're doing . I think some researchers who are gonna be working with this corpus years from now are really gonna be cursing the fact that there 's a bunch of stuff in there {comment} that 's missing from the dialogue .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know , it depends on the kind of research they 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but it might be , uh {pause} it might be really a {disfmarker} a pain . And , you know where it 's really gonna hurt somebody , in some way {disfmarker} the one who said it or someone who is being spoken about , {comment} we definitely want to allow the option of it being bleeped out . But I really think we wanna make it the rare incidence . And {disfmarker} and uh , I am just a little worried about making it so easy for people to do , and so much fun ! {vocalsound} that they 're gonna go through and bleep out stuff .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So much fun .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "and they can bleep out stuff they don't like too , right from somebody else , as you say , you know , so \" well I didn't like what he said . \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I don't see any way of avoiding that . I mean , we have to provi we have promised that we would provide them the transcript and that they can remove parts that they don't like . So that the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No , no , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The only question is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You - you 've talked me into that , but I {disfmarker} I just think that we should make it harder to do .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The problem is if it 's harder for them it 's also harder for me . Whereas this web interface , I just get email , it 's all formatted , it 's all ready to go and I can just insert it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So maybe you don't give them access to the web interface unless they really need it . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I guess {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} So maybe this is a s a way out of it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You 've provided something that 's useful for you to do {disfmarker} handle , and useful for someone else if they need it . But I think the issue of privacy and ease and so forth should be that uh , they get access to this if they really need it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So you 're saying the {disfmarker} the sequence would be more like first Adam goes to the contact lists , contacts them via whatever their preferred method is , to see if they want to review the meeting .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And then if they don't , you 're done . If they do , then he provides them access to the {disfmarker} the web site .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well , to some extent I have to do that anyway because as I said we have to distribute passwords .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "W w", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} a printed - out form .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "y but you don't necessarily have to distribute passwords is what I 'm saying .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Only if they want it .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "what I 'm saying is that I can't just email them the password because that 's not secure . So they have to call me and ask .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , no , no . But you aren't necessarily giving them {disfmarker} Right . But {disfmarker} we don't even necessarily need to end up distributing passwords at all .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , we do because of privacy . We can't just make it openly available on the web .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , no . You 're missing the point .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "We 're {disfmarker} We 're trying i We 're trying to make it less of an obvious just l l l l uh fall off a log , to do this .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Not everyone gets a password , unless they ask for it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right ? So th so what I would see , is that first you contact them and ask them if they would like to review it for to check for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "not just for fun , OK ? but to {disfmarker} to check this for uh things that they 're worried about having said or if they 're willing to just send an approval of it , at {disfmarker} from their memory . Um {disfmarker} and , uh , and we should think carefully actually we should review {disfmarker} go through how that 's worded , OK ? Then , if someone uh {disfmarker} wants to review it , uh , and I know you don't like this , but I 'm offering this as a suggestion , is that {disfmarker} is that we then give them a print out . And then if they say that \" I have a potential problem with these things , \" then , you {disfmarker} you say \" OK well you might wanna hear this in context to s think if you need that , \" you issue them a password , i in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But the {disfmarker} the problem with what you 're suggesting is it 's not just inconvenient for them , it 's inconvenient for me . Because that means multiple contacts every time {disfmarker} for every single meeting every time anyone wants anything . I would much prefer to have all be automatic , they visit the web site if they want to . Obviously they don't have to .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I know you 'd prefer it , but the proble", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "we have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So I think you 're thinking people are going to arbitrarily start bleeping and I just don't think that 's gonna happen .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "there 's a problem with it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm also concerned about the spirit of the {disfmarker} of the informed consent thing . Cuz I think if they feel that uh , it 's {disfmarker} I th I th You know , if it turns out that something gets published in this corpus that someone really should have eliminated and didn't detect , then it could have been because of their own negligence that they didn't pursue that next level and get the password and do that , um , but {disfmarker} but they might be able to argue \" oh well it was cumbersome , and I was busy and it was gonna take me too much time to trace it down \" . So it could that the burden would come back onto us . So I 'm a little bit worried about uh , making it harder for them , from the legal standpoint .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well you can go too far in that direction , and you need to find somewhere between I think ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "It seems to me that sending them email , saying \" if you have an O - OK reply to this email and say OK ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "If you have a problem with it contact me and I 'll give you a password \" , seems like is a perfectly , reasonable compromise . And if they want a printout they can print it out themselves .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or we could print it up for them ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean we could offer that {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but there 's uh , another aspect to that and that is that in the informed consent form , um , my impression is that they {disfmarker} that we offered them at the very least that they definitely would have access to the transcript . And {disfmarker} and I ha", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know that there 's a chance of really skipping that stage . I mean I {disfmarker} I thought that you were {disfmarker} Maybe I misinterpreted what you said but it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Having access to it doesn't necessarily mean , that {disfmarker} having it", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Having it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Giving it to them .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well the in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ? It just means they have the right to have it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "the consent form is right in there if anyone wants to look at it ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright . Fine . OK . Fair enough .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "D you want me to grab one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sh - sh well I could {disfmarker} I 'm closer .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , but you 're wired", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "aren't you ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . That is true .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um . {vocalsound} Yeah , I mean I don't wanna fool them ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I just meant that e every {disfmarker} ev any time you say anything to anyone there is in fact a {disfmarker} a bias that is presented ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah {disfmarker} oh I know .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" If you agree to participate you 'll have the opportunity to have anything ex anything excised , which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "of {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's true . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "\" Once a transcript is available we will ask your permission to include the data in the corpus for the r larger research community .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There again you will be allowed to indicate any sections that you 'd prefer to have excised from the database , and they will m be removed both from the transcript and the recording . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Well that 's more open than I realized .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well , I mean it {disfmarker} The one question is definitely clear with anything as opposed to just what you said .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh no that {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} tha", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Tha - that 's true . That 's more severe , but the next one says the transcript will be around .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "that 's right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And it doesn't {comment} really say we 'll send it to you , or wi it 'll be available for you on the web , or anything .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I think it probably leaves it open how we get it to them .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "At least it more often . Yeah . It means also we don't have to g To give it to them . I mean like {disfmarker} like Morgan was saying they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "They just have to make sure that it is available to them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's available to them if they ask for it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , so . wh um {disfmarker} I think I have an idea that may be sat may satisfy both you and me in this which is , um , it 's a {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} we just go over carefully how these notes to people are worded . So I {disfmarker} I just want it to be worded in such a way where it gives the strong impre it gives very , I mean nothing hidden , v very strongly the bias that we would really like to use all of these data .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} that we really would rather it wasn't a patchwork of things tossed out ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "that it would be better for , um , our , uh , field if that is the case . But if you really think something is gonna {disfmarker} And I don't think there 's anything in the legal aspects that {disfmarker} that is hurt by our expressing that bias .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Great . Great , great .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} then my concern about {disfmarker} which {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I agree .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "you know you might be right , it may be it was just paranoia on my part , uh but people just {disfmarker} See I 'm @ @ worried about this interface so much fun {vocalsound} that people start bleeping stuff out {comment} {vocalsound} just as {disfmarker} just because they can .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It 's just a check box next to the text , it 's not any fun at all .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well I don't know . I kind of had fun when you played me something that was bleeped out . You know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , but they won't get that feedback .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "All {disfmarker} no because it doesn't automatically bleep it at the time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh they won't ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It just sends me {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh good . So you haven't made it so much fun .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh good .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It just sends me the time intervals .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And then at some point I 'll incorporate them all and put bleeps . I mean I don't wanna have t ha do that yet until we actually release the data", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "because um , then we have to have two copies of every meeting and we 're already short on disk space .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I wanna {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} just keep the times until we actually wanna release the data and then we bleep it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Alright , so I think {disfmarker} Yeah so if we have if {disfmarker} i Again let 's you know , sort of circulate the {disfmarker} the wording on each of these things and get it right ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well since you seem to feel heart uh , strongest about it , would you like to do the first pass ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} OK . Uh , fair enough . Turn about is fair play ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Al - Also it ther there is this other question , the legal question that {disfmarker} that Adam 's raised , uh about whether we need a concrete signature , or email c i suffices or whatever", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and I don't know how that works . i There 's something down there about \" if you agree to {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I thought about it with one of my background processes", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and I {disfmarker} uh it 's {disfmarker} uh it 's uh , it 's fine to do the email .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Ah . Fine .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah because thi th they 're signing here that they 're agreeing to the paragraph which says \" you 'll be given an opportunity . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good . OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And so I don't think they need another signature .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Well and furthermore I {disfmarker} it 's now fairly routine in a lot of arrangements that I do with people on contracts and so forth that {disfmarker} that uh if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's that sort of thing where you 're you 're saying uh \" OK I agree , we want eighty hours of this person at such - and - such amount , and I agree that 's OK , \" uh if it 's a follow up to some other agreement where there was a signature it 's often done in email now", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so it 's {disfmarker} it 's OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So I guess I probably should at the minimum , think about how to present it in a printed form . I 'm not really sure what 's best with that . The problem is a lot of them are really short ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "and so I don't necessarily wanna do one per line . But I don't know how else to do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well I s I also have this {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice you have it uh , viewab her {comment} hearable on the {disfmarker} on the web for those who might wonder about um , the non nonverbal side , I mean I {disfmarker} I agree that our bias should be as {disfmarker} as expressed here , and {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice that a person could check . Cuz sometimes you know you {disfmarker} the words on a {disfmarker} on the page , come out soun sounding different in terms of the {pause} social dynamics if they hear it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And I realize we shouldn't emphasize that people {comment} you know , shouldn't borrow trouble . What it comes down to but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah I think actually {disfmarker} my opinion probably is that the only time someone will need to listen to it is if the transcript is uh not good . You know , if {disfmarker} if there are lots of mumbles and parentheses and things like that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , you know , or what if there was an error in the transcript that didn't get detected and there was a whole uh {disfmarker} i segment a against some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} personal {vocalsound} i th", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right . That was all mumbled ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think Microsoft is", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah exactly", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sorry transcribers .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even {disfmarker} {vocalsound} or even {comment} there was a {disfmarker} a line you know about how \" hmm - mmm - mmm {comment} Bill Gates duh - duh - duh - duh . \"", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but it was all {disfmarker} the words were all visible , but they didn't end up i some there was a slip in the transcript .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , God .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "They 're gonna hate this meeting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Actually Liz will like it . You know , but .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Liz will like it . We had a pretty strong disagreement going there .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep , yep , that 's right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So I don't know . I mean , I {disfmarker} I guess we 're assuming that the transcript is a close enough approximation and that {disfmarker} that my double checking will be {pause} so close to absolutely perfect that it {disfmarker} that nothing will slip by .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} some something might sometime , and they {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's something that they said , they might {disfmarker} i i I mean , you might be very accurate in putting down what they actually said ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "but , when they hear it , themselves , they may hear something different because they know what they meant .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know how to notate that .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Sarcasm ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "how do you {disfmarker} how do you indicate sarcasm ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's right .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "No , I 'm serious . So {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} i the {disfmarker} so we might {disfmarker} we might get some feedback from people that such - and - such was , you know , not {disfmarker} not really what I said .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well that would be good to get , definitely .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , but , Yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Just for corrections .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So um , in terms of password distribution , I think phone is really the only way to do it , phone and in person . Or mail , physical mail .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or if for leave it on their voice mail .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Any sub - word level thing . ", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Any sub - wor Yeah , OK . I mean you could do it with PGP or things like that but it 's too complex .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know I just realized something , which is of {disfmarker} e th this question about the {disfmarker} uh the possible mismatch of {disfmarker} I mean i well , and actually also the lawyer saying that um , we shouldn't really have them {disfmarker} have the people believing that they will be cleared by our checks . You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean . So it 's like i in a way it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to have the responsibility still on them to listen to the tape and {disfmarker} and hear the transcript , to have that be the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well yeah , but you can't dep I mean , most people will not wanna take the time to do that , though .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , fair enough . And they 're s they 're absorbing the responsibility themselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And they {disfmarker} they have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not um {disfmarker} Yeah , good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "But I mean if you were at a meeting , and {disfmarker} and you {disfmarker} you don't think , at least , that you said anything funny and the meeting was about , you know , some {disfmarker} some funny thing about semantics or something , or uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You probably won't listen to it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It is true that tec that the content is technical , I {disfmarker} and so i and we 're not having these discussions which {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , when I listen to these things , I don't find things that are questionable , in other people 's speech or in my own .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah . You would think it would be rare ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} It should be very rare .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean we 're not talking about the energy crisis or something , people have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "How about them energy crises .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think we 're uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Done ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Kind of done . Actually , I was gonna {disfmarker} Di - Did you have anything n that 's going on , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Not really . No . Um , {vocalsound} my project is going along but um , I 'm really just here to um fill the project uh {disfmarker} the overall progress . I don't really have anything specific to {disfmarker} to talk about .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's fine . I just didn't wanna go by you , if you had something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You don't have anything to say .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": " ", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Transcribers , he was rattling the b marbles in his brain back and forth just then this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Shall we do digits ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , oh by the way I did find a bunch {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It um", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh , we should count out how many more digits to forms do we have back there ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There were quite a few . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "That 's what I thought . I f I was going through them all and I found actually a lot filed in with them , that were blanks , that no one had actually read .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And so we still have more than I thought we did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh good .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So , we have a few more digits before we 're done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know having this headset reminds me of like working at Burger King or something .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , did you do that ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Burger King", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I 'd like a burger with that ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No I never did .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "do you want fries with that ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But I feel like I could now .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And {pause}", "speaker": "Grad C" } ]

[ { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So are you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Are we going ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It is uh , must be February fifteenth .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yu I think the date 's written in there , yep . And actually if everyone could cross out the R - nine next to \" Session \" , and write MR eleven .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We didn't have a front - end meeting today .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And let 's remember also to make sure that one 's {comment} gets marked as unread , unused .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "MR eleven .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "MR eleven .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That sounds like a spy code .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mmm . OK . So .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There 's lots of clicking I 'm sure as I 'm trying to get this to work {pause} correctly .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Agenda . Any agenda items today ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I wanna talk a little bit about getting {disfmarker} how we 're gonna to get people to edit bleeps , parts of the meeting that they don't want to include . What I 've done so far , and I wanna get some opinions on , how to {disfmarker} how to finish it up .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I wanna ask about um , some aud audio monitoring on some of the {pause} um {pause} well some of the equipment . In particular , the {disfmarker} well uh , that 's just what I wanna ask .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK audio monitoring , Jane .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Ba - based on some of the tran uh {disfmarker} i In listening to {pause} some of these meetings that have already been recorded there are sometimes big spikes on particular things , and in pact {disfmarker} in fact this one I 'm talking on is one of {disfmarker} of the ones that showed up in one of the meetings ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh really .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "\" Spikes \" , you mean like uh , instantaneous click type spikes , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Spikes ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Clicks .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And I don't know what the e electronics is but .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well , I think it 's", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Touching .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh , it {disfmarker} it could be a number of things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It could be touching and fiddling , and the other thing is that it could {disfmarker} the fact that it 's on a wired mike is suspicious . It might be a connector .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , OK . Well maybe {disfmarker} Then we don't really have to talk about that as an {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You could try an experiment and say \" OK , I 'm about to test for spikes \" ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I take that off the agenda .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "and then wiggle the thing there , and then go and when they go to transcribe it , it could , ask them to come and get you .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Come get me when you transcribe this and see if there 's spikes . \"", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Oh that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "No I 'm just {disfmarker} ", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean , were this a professional audio recording , {vocalsound} what we would do {disfmarker} {comment} what you would do is {disfmarker} in testing it is , you would actually do all this wiggling and make sure that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that things are not giving that kind of performance . And if they are , then they can't be used .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . Um . Let 's see . I guess {pause} I would like to have a discussion about you know where we are on uh , recording , transcription you know , basically you know where we are on the corpus .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And then um , the other thing which I would like to talk about which is a real meta - quest , I think , deal is , uh , agendas . So maybe I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll start with that actually . Uh , um . {vocalsound} Andreas brought up the fact that he would kinda like to know , if possible , what we were gonna be talking about because he 's sort of peripherally involved to this point , and if there 's gonna be a topic about {disfmarker} discussion about something that he uh strongly cares about then he would come and {disfmarker} And I think part of {disfmarker} part of his motivation with this is that he 's trying to help us out , in the {disfmarker} because of uh the fact that the meetings are {disfmarker} are tending to become reasonably large now on days when everybody shows up and so , he figures he could help that out by not showing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and I 'm sure help out his own time . by not showing up if it 's a meeting that he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} So , uh in order {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} I think that this is a wish on his part . Uh . It 's actually gonna be hard because it seems like a lot of times uh things come up that are unanticipated and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But um , we could try anyway , uh , do another try at coming up with the agenda uh , at some point before the meeting , uh , say the day before .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well maybe it would be a good idea for one of us to {pause} like on Wednesday , or Tuesday send out a reminder for people to send in agenda items .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK . You {disfmarker} you wanna volunteer to do that ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Alright so we 'll send out agenda request .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Let me", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} I think that 'll help {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I 'll put that on my spare brain or it will not {pause} get done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 'll help a lot , actually .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have to tell you for the uh {disfmarker} for the admin meeting that we have , Lila does that um every time before an admin meeting . And uh , she ends up getting the agenda requests uh , uh ten minutes before the meeting . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} {comment} But . Uh . {comment} But we can try . Maybe it 'll work .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe . Weirder things have happened .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm wondering if he were to just , uh , specify particular topics , I mean . Maybe we 'd be able to meet that request of his a little more .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I would {disfmarker} I would also guess that as we get more into processing the data and things like that there 'll be more things of interest to him .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Actually it {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this maybe brings up another topic which is um {disfmarker} So we 're done with that topic . The other topic I was thinking of was the sta status on microphones and channels , and all that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , actually I {disfmarker} I was going to say we need to {pause} talk about that too .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Why {disfmarker} why don't we do that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK . Um , the new microphones , the two new ones are in . Um . {pause} And they are being assembled as we speak , I hope . And I didn't bring my car today so I 'm gonna pick them up tomorrow . Um , and then the other question I was thinking about is {disfmarker} well , a couple things . First of all , if the other headsets are a lot more comfortable , we should probably just go ahead and get them . So we 'll have to evaluate that when they come in ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and get people 's opinions on {disfmarker} on what they think of them . Um , then the other question I had is maybe we should get another wireless . Another wireless setup . I mean it 's expensive , but it does seem to be {pause} better than the wired .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So how many channels do you get to have in a wireless setup ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , well , I 'm pretty sure that you can daisy - chain them together so what we would do is replace the wired mikes with wireless . So we currently have one base station with six wireless mike , possibility of six wireless receivers , and apparently you can chain those together . And so we could replace our wired mikes with wireless if we bought another base station and more wireless mikes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So , you know it 's still , it 's fifteen minus six .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So let 's see we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right ? So we could have up to nine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And right now we can have up to six .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right . And we have five , we 're getting one more .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And it 's um , about nine hundred dollars for the base station , and then eight hundred per channel .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh . So yeah so the only {disfmarker} Beyond the mike {disfmarker} the cost of the mikes the only thing is the base station that 's nine hundred dollars .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , we should do it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK . OK , so I 'll look into how you daisy - chain them and {disfmarker} and then just go ahead and order them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't quite understand how that {disfmarker} how that works , . If {disfmarker} So we 're not increasing the number of channels . OK .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "No , we 're just replacing the wired {disfmarker} the two wired that are still working ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . I see .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "along with a couple of the wired that aren't working , one of the wired that 's not working , with a wireless .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Three wireds work ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Basically we found {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I guess three wireds work , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we 've had more problems with that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And that sort of bypasses the whole {disfmarker} the whole Jimbox thing and all that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so um , we {disfmarker} we seem to have uh , a reliable way of getting the data in , which is through the ra Sony radio mikes , as long as we 're conscious about the batteries .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That seems to be the key issue .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Everyone 's battery OK ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I checked them this morning , they should be .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , {vocalsound} That 's the only thing with them . But the quality seems really good and {disfmarker} Um I heard from UW that they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh very close to getting their , uh setup purchased . They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're buying something that you can just sort of buy off the shelf .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well we should talk to them about it because I know that SRI is also in the process of looking at stuff , and so , you know , what we should try to keep everyone {disfmarker} on the same page with that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "SRI , really ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "They got sa apparent Well , Maybe {pause} this needs to be bleeped out ? I have no clue .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know how much of it 's public .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Probably we shouldn't {disfmarker} probably we shouldn't talk about funding stuff .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . But anyway there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's uh , uh other activities that are going on there and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} and NIST and UW . So . Um . But {disfmarker} but yeah I thin I think that at least the message we can tell other people is that our experience is {disfmarker} is quite positive with the Sony ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "uh , radio - mikes . Now the one thing that you have said that actually concerns me a little is you 're talking about changing the headsets meaning changing the connector , which means some hand - soldering or something , right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , no , we 're having the {disfmarker} them do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So it 's so hand - soldering it , but I 'm not doing it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , they {disfmarker} they charge", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Nothing against you and your hand - soldering", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You 've never seen my hand - soldering . But uh , a as I said they 're coming in .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , so that 's being done professionally and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "As professionally as I guess you can get it done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , it could {disfmarker} if they do a lot of it , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean i it 's just their repair shop . Right ? Their maintenance people .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , we 'll see what it {disfmarker} it 's like .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} tha that can be quite good . Th - this {disfmarker} Yeah , OK . Good . Yeah . So let 's go with that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And , I mean we 'll see , tomorrow , you know , what it looks like .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , Yeah . So , um , uh , Dave isn't here but he was going to start working on some things with the digits . Uh , so he 'll be interested in what 's going on with that . I guess {disfmarker} Was {disfmarker} the decision last time was that the {disfmarker} the uh transcribers were going to be doing stuff with the digits as well ? Has that started , or is that {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah . Uh , it would be to use his interface and I was going to meet with him today about that .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right , so , the decision was that Jane did not want the transcribers to be doing any of the paperwork . So I did the {disfmarker} all that last week . So all the {disfmarker} all the forms are now {pause} on the computer . And uh , then I have a bunch of scripts that we 'll read those and let the uh {pause} transcribers use different tools . And I just want to talk to Jane about how we transition to using those .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So he has a nice set up that they {disfmarker} it w it will be efficient for them to do that .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think it 'll take too long .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So anyway {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , you know , just uh , a matter of a few days I suspect .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So anyway I think we {disfmarker} we have at least one uh , user for the digits once they get done , which will be Dave .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right . I 've already done five or six {pause} sets .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So if he wanted to , you know , just have a few to start with , he could . You know , and I also have a bunch of scripts that will , like , generate P - files and run recognition on them also .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , he might {disfmarker} he might be asking {disfmarker} Right . OK . Uh , is Dave {disfmarker} I don't know if Dave is on the list , if he 's invited to these meetings , uh if he knows .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't tend to get an invitation myself for them even .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , we don't have a active one but I 'll make sure he 's on the list .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Should we call him ? I mean is he {disfmarker} d is he definitely not available today ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Should I call his office and see ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "He was in .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean , he 's still taking classes , so uh , he may well have conflicts .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , well i it 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , he was in {pause} s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He wasn't there at cof", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so this might be a conflict for him .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK . Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah didn't he say his signal - processing class was like {pause} Tuesdays and Thursdays ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I think he has a class . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . He might have .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Oh well , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You talking about David Gelbart ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think he 's taking two twenty - five A which is now .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK . So , that 's why we 're not seeing him . OK . Uh , transcriptions , uh , beyond the digits , where we are , and so on .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the recordings also ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "just where we are . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , so um , should we {disfmarker} we don't wan wanna do the recording status first , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well , we have about thirty - two hours uh as of , I guess a week and a half ago , so we probably now have about thirty - five hours .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh {disfmarker} How much of that is digits ? It 's uh {disfmarker} that 's including digits ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's including digits .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I haven't separated it out so I have no clue how much of that is digits .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . So anyway there 's at least probably thirty hours , or something of {disfmarker} There 's got to be more than thirty hour {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Of {disfmarker} of non - digits ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "i it couldn't {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} Of non - digits .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , absolutely . I mean , the digits don't take up that much time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK , and the transcribers h I , uh , don't have the exact numbers , but I {pause} think it would come to about eleven hours that are finished uh , transcribing from them right now . The next step is to {disfmarker} that I 'm working on is to insure that the data are clean first , and then channelized . What I mean by clean is that they 're spell - checked , that the mark - up is consistent all the way throughout , and also that we now incorporate these additional conventions that uh , Liz requested in terms of um , um {pause} in terms of having a s a systematic handling of numbers , and acronyms which I hadn't been specific about . Um , for example , i they 'll say uh \" ninety - two \" . And you know , so how {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Nine two ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "e Exactly .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So if you just say \" nine two \" , the {disfmarker} there are many s ways that could have been expressed . An - and I just had them {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , a certain number of them did put the words down , but now we have a convention which also involves having it followed by , um , a gloss th and things .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You know , Jane ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , one suggestion and you may already be doing this , but I 've noticed in the past that when I 've gone through transcriptions and you know in {disfmarker} in order to build lexicons and things , if you um , just take all the transcriptions and separate them into words and then alphabetize them , {comment} a lot of times just scanning down that list you 'll find a lot of {pause} inconsistencies and mis", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Misspelled .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 're talking about the type token frequency listings , and I use those too . Y you mean just uh {pause} on each {disfmarker} on each line there 's a one word right ? It 's one token from the {disfmarker} from the corpus .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , those are e extremely efficient and I and I {disfmarker} I agree that 's a very good use of it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh so you already have that , OK .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well that 's {disfmarker} that 's a way {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} You know , the spell - check basically does that but {disfmarker} but in addition {disfmarker} yes , that 's {disfmarker} that 's exactly the strategy I wanna do in terms of locating these things which are you know colloquial spoken forms which aren't in the lexicon .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Cuz a lot of times they 'll appear next to each other , and uh ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Exactly . And then you ca then you can do a s", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "i in alphabetized lists , they 'll appear next to each other and {disfmarker} and so it makes it easier .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Absolutely . I agree . That 's a very good {disfmarker} that 's a very good uh , suggestion . And that was {disfmarker} that 's my strategy for handling a lot of these things , in terms of things that need to be glossed . I didn't get to that point but {disfmarker} So there are numbers , then there are acronyms , and then um , there 's a {disfmarker} he she wants the uh , actually a {disfmarker} an explicit marker of what type of comment this is , so i curly b inside the curly brackets I 'm gonna put either \" VOC \" for vocalized , like cough or like laugh or whatever , \" NONVOC \" for door - slam , and \" GLOSS \" for things that have to do with {disfmarker} if they said a s a spoken form with this {disfmarker} m this pronunciation error .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I already had that convention", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh that 's great .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "but I {disfmarker} I haven't been asking these people to do it systematically cuz I think it most {disfmarker} ha most efficiently handled by uh {disfmarker} by a {disfmarker} a filter . That was what I was always planing on . So that , you know you get a whole long list {disfmarker} exactly what you 're saying , you get a whole list of things that say \" curly bracket laugh curly bracket \" ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "then y you know it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you risk less error if you handle it by a filter , than if you have this transcriber ch laboriously typing in sort of a VOC space ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "so man So many ways that error prone .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So , um , {vocalsound} um I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm going to convert that via a filter , into these tagged uh , subcategorized comments , and same thing with you know , we see you get a subset when you do what you 're saying ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "you end up with a s with uh , you 're collapsing across a frequency you just have the tokens", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and you can um , have a filter which more efficiently makes those changes . But the numbers and acronyms have to be handled by hand , because , you know I mean , jus", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You don't know what they could be .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah now TIMIT 's clear um {pause} and PLP is clear but uh there are things that are not so well known , in {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or have variant {disfmarker} u u uses like the numbers you can say \" nine two \" or you can say \" ninety - two \" ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So how are you doing the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and uh I 'd handle the numbers individually .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "How are you doing the uh , acronyms so if I say PZM what would it appear on the transcript ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It would be separate {disfmarker} The letters would be separated in space", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and potentially they 'll have a curly bracket thing afterwards e but I 'm not sure if that 's necessary , clarifying what it is ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so gloss of {pause} whatever .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know if that 's really necessary to do that . Maybe it 's a nice thing to do because of it then indicating this is uh , a step away from i indicating that it really is intentional that those spaces are there , and indicating why they 're there to indicate that it 's uh {vocalsound} the you know , {comment} uh enumerated , or i", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "it 's not a good way of saying {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} it 's the {vocalsound} specific uh way of stating these {disfmarker} these letters .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right . So it sounds good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so anyway , the clean {disfmarker} those are those things and then channelized is to then um , get it into this multichannel format . And at that point then it 's ready for use by Liz and Don . But that 's been my top priority {disfmarker} beyond getting it tanel channelized , the next step is to work on tightening up the boundaries of the time bins .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And uh , Thilo had a {disfmarker} e e a breakthrough with this {disfmarker} this last week in terms of getting the channel - based um uh s s speech - nonspeech segmentation um , up and running and I haven't {disfmarker} I haven't been able to use that yet cuz I 'm working s re this is my top priority {disfmarker} get the data clean , and channelized .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I actually gave", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Have you also been doing spot checks , Jane ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Okay , good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well you see that 's part of the cleaning process . I spent um actually um I have a segment of ten minutes that was transcribed by two of our transcribers ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh good . Good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and I went through it last night , it 's {disfmarker} it 's almost spooky how similar these are , word for word . And there are some differences in commas cuz commas I {disfmarker} I left them discretion at commas .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} and so because it 's not part of our st of our ne needed conventions .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And um , and {disfmarker} so they 'll be a difference in commas , but it 's word - by - word the same , in {disfmarker} in huge patches of the data . And I have t ten minute stretch where I can {disfmarker} where I can show that . And {disfmarker} and sometimes it turns out that one of these transcribers has a better ear for technical jargon , and the other one has a better ear for colloquial speech . So um , the one i i the colloquial speech person picked up \" gobbledy - gook \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And the other one didn't . And on this side , this one 's picking up things like \" neural nets \" and the one that 's good on the sp o on th the vocabulary on the uh colloquial didn't .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "When {disfmarker} for the person who missed \" gobbledy - gook \" what did they put ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "It was an interesting approximation , put in parentheses , cuz I have this convention that , i if they 're not sure what it was , they put it in parentheses .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So they tried to approximate it , but it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh good .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "it was spelled GABBL {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Sort of how it sounds . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yes . More of an attempt to {disfmarker} I mean apparently it was very clear to her that these {disfmarker} the a this {disfmarker} this was a sound {disfmarker} these are the sounds ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "It was a technical term that she didn't recognize ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . But she knew that she didn't know it . Maybe it was a technical ter exactly . But she {disfmarker} even though her technical perception is just really {disfmarker} uh you know I 've {disfmarker} I 'm tempted to ask her if she 's taken any courses in this area or if she 's taken cognitive science courses", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "then cuz \" neural nets \" and {disfmarker} oh she has some things that are {disfmarker} oh \" downsampled \" , she got that right .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And some of these are rather {pause} uh unexpected .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Obscure , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But ch ten solid uh {disfmarker} m ch s chunk of ten solid minutes where they both coded the same data .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and again the main track that you 're working with is elev eleven hours ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Is that right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yes exactly .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And that 's part of this {disfmarker} Eleven hours .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Is that {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} that including digits ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yes it is .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So let 's say roughly {pause} ten hours or so of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean it 's probably more than that but {disfmarker} but with {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of non - digits .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 'd be more than that because I {disfmarker} my recollection is the minutes {disfmarker} that da digits don't take more than half a minute . Per person .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But um {pause} the {disfmarker} the total set that I gave them is twelve hours of tape ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , I see .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But they haven't gotten to the end of that yet .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , I see .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So they 're still working {disfmarker} some of them are {disfmarker} Two of them are still working on completing that . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Boy , they 're moving right along .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . They are . Mm - hmm . They 're very efficient . There 're some who have more hours that they devote to it than others .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what 's the deal with {disfmarker} with your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The channel u thing ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's just uh , I ran the recognizer {disfmarker} uh , the {pause} {comment} speech - nonspeech detector on different channels and , it 's just in uh {disfmarker} in this new multi - channel format and output , and I just gave one {disfmarker} one meeting to {disfmarker} to Liz who wanted to {disfmarker} to try it for {disfmarker} for the recognizer", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , I see .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "as uh , apparently the recognizer had problems with those long chunks of speech , which took too much memory or whatever ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and so {pause} she {disfmarker} she will try that I think", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm working on it . So , I hope {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is this anything different than the HMM system you were using before ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No . Uh , I {pause} mmm , use some {disfmarker} some different features but not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The basic thing is this HMM base .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So there 's still no {disfmarker} no knowledge using different channels at the same time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There is some , uh as the energy is normalized across channels", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You know what I mean ? Across all of them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . But basically that 's one of the main changes .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . What are some of the other features ? Besides the energy ? You said you 're trying some different features , or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh I just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mmm , I just use um our loudness - based things now as they {disfmarker} before there were {disfmarker} they were some in {disfmarker} in the log domain and I {disfmarker} I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cu - Cube root ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . To {disfmarker} No , I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker} to the loudness thingy with the {disfmarker} with the", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "how do you call it ? I 'm not sure . With the , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Fletcher Munson ? No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm not sure about the term .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , I 'll look it up . And say it to you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , alright .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , and {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} that 's basically the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing . Yeah , and I {disfmarker} and I tried t to normalize uh {disfmarker} uh the features , there 's loudness and modified loudness , um , within one channel ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "because they 're , {vocalsound} yeah to {disfmarker} to be able to distinguish between foreground and background speech . And it works quite well . But , not always .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , let 's see . I think the uh {disfmarker} Were {disfmarker} were you basically done with the transcription part ? So I guess the next thing is this uh {disfmarker} bleep editing .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} The idea is that we need to have {disfmarker} We need to provide the transcripts to every participant of every meeting to give them an opportunity to bleep out sections they don't want . So I 've written a bunch of tools that will generate web pages , uh with the transcription in it so that they can click on them and piece {disfmarker} pieces and they can scroll through and read them , and then they can check on each one if they want it excluded . And then , it 's a form , HTML form , so they can submit it and it will end up sending me email with the times that they want excluded . And so , uh , some of the questions on this is what do we do about the privacy issue . And so I thought about this a little bit and I think the best way to do it is every participant will have a password ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "a single password . Each person will have a single password , user name and password . And then each meeting , we 'll only allow the participants who were at that meeting to look at it . And that way each person only has to remember one password .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I can't help but wonder if this is maybe a little more elaborate than is needed . I mean if people have {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , for me I would actually want to have some pieces of paper that had the transcription and I would sort of flip through it . And then {pause} um {pause} if I thought it was OK , I 'd say \" it 's OK \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And , I {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean it depends how this really ends up working out , but I guess my thought was that the occasion of somebody wondering whether something was OK or not and needing to listen to it was gonna be extremely rare .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right , I mean so th th th the fact that you could listen to it over the web is a minor thing that I had already done for {pause} other reasons .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And so that {disfmarker} that 's a minor part of it , I just wanted some web interface so that people {disfmarker} you didn't actually have to send everyone the text . So m what my intention to do is that as the transcripts become ready , um {pause} I would take them , and generate the web pages and send email to every participant or contact them using the contact method they wanted , and just uh , tell them , \" here 's the web page \" , um , \" you need a password \" . So th th question number one is how do we distribute the passwords , and question number two is how else do we wanna provide this information if they want it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} I think what I was sort of saying is that if you just say {vocalsound} \" here is a {disfmarker} here is {disfmarker} \" I mean this maybe it sounds paleolithic but {disfmarker} but I just thought if you handed them some sheets of paper , that said , uh , \" here 's what was said in this transcription is it OK with you ? and if it is , here 's this other sheet of paper that you sign that says that it 's OK \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I think that um there are a subset of people who will want printouts that we can certainly provide .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And then they 'd hand it back to you .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But certainly I wouldn't want a printout . These are big , and I would much rather be {pause} ha be able to just sit and leaf through it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You find it easier to go through a large {disfmarker} I mean how do you read books ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I certainly read books by hand . But for something like this , I think it 's easier to do it on the web .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Really ? I mean , it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Cuz you 're gonna get , you know , if I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm in a bunch of meetings and I don't wanna get a stack of these . I wanna just be able to go to {disfmarker} go to the web site {comment} and visit it as I want .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Going to a web site is easy , but flipping through a hundred pounds {disfmarker} a hundred pages of stuff is not easy on the web .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think it 's that much harder than , paper . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I have one question . So are you thinking that um the person would have a transcript and go strictly from the transcript ? Because I {disfmarker} I do think that there 's a benefit to being able to hear the tone of voice and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So here 's the way I was imagining it , and maybe I 'm wrong ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "but the way I imagined it was that um , the largest set of people is gonna go \" oh yeah , I didn't say anything funny in that meeting just go ahead , where 's the {disfmarker} where 's the release ? \" And then there 'll be a subset of people , right ? {disfmarker} OK there 's {disfmarker} I mean think of who it is we 've been recording mostly .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK there 'll be a subset of people , who um , will say uh \" well , yeah , I really would like to see that . \" And for them , the easiest way to flip through , if it 's a really large document , I mean unless you 're searching . Searching , of course , should be electronic , but if you 're not {disfmarker} so if you provide some search mechanism you go to every place they said something or something like that ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but see then we 're getting more elaborate with this thing . Um if {disfmarker} if uh you don't have search mechanisms you just sort of have this really , really long document , I mean whenever I 've had a really , really long document that it was sitting on the web , I 've always ended up printing it out . I mean , so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean , you {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're not necessarily gonna be sitting at the desk all the time , you wanna figure you have a train ride , and there 's all these situations where {disfmarker} where I {disfmarker} I mean , this is how I was imagining it , anyway . And then I figured , that out of that group , there would be a subset who would go \" hmm you know I 'm really not sure about this section here , \" and then that group would need it {disfmarker} S It seems like i if I 'm right in that , it seems like you 're setting it up for the most infrequent case , rather than for the most frequent case . So that uh , now we have to worry about privacy ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , no fre for the most {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "we have to worry about all these passwords , for different people", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "For the most frequent case they just say {pause} \" it 's OK \" and then they 're done . And I think {pause} almost everyone would rather do that by email than any other method .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The other thing too is it seems like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um , yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Go ahead .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean , cuz you don't have to visit the web page if you don't want to .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker} Yeah , I guess we don't need their signature . I guess an email OK is alright .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh that was another thing I {disfmarker} I had assumed that we didn't need their signature , that it {disfmarker} that an email approval was sufficient . But {pause} I don't actually know .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are {disfmarker} are people going to be allowed to bleep out sections of a meeting where they weren't speaking ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yes . If someone feels strongly enough about it , then I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think they should be allowed to do that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I also {disfmarker} mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So that means other people are editing what you say ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh {pause} I don't know about that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know if I like that .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well , the only other choice is that the person would say \" no , don't distribute this meeting at all \" , and I would rather they were able to edit out other people then just say \" don't distribute it at all \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But th what they signed in the consent form , was something that said you can use my voice .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , but if {disfmarker} if someone is having a conversation , and you only bleep out one side of it , that 's not sufficient .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ? Yeah . Yeah , but that 's our decision then . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , I don't think so . I mean , because if I object to the conversation .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I think it is .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "If I say \" we were having a conversation , and I consider that conversation private , \" and I consider that your side of it is enough for other people to infer , I wanna be able to bleep out your side .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} I agree that the consent forms were {disfmarker} uh , I cons agree with what Adam 's saying , that {vocalsound} um , the consent form did leave open this possibility that they could edit things which they found offensive whe whether they said them or didn't say them .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I see . OK , well , if that 's what it said .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And the other thing is from the standpoint of the l of the l I 'm not a law lawyer , but it strikes me that {vocalsound} uh , we wouldn't want someone to say \" oh yes , I was a little concerned about it but {vocalsound} it was too hard to access \" . So I think it 's kind of nice to have this facility to listen to it . Now {disfmarker} in terms of like editing it by hand , I mean I think it 's {disfmarker} i some people would find that easier to specify the bleep part by having a document they edited . But {disfmarker} but it seems to me that sometimes um , you know i if a person had a bad day , and they had a tone in their voice that they didn't really like , you know it 's nice {disfmarker} it 's nice to be able to listen to it and be sure that that was OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean I can certainly provide a printable version if people want it . Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um {pause} I mean it 's also a mixture of people , I mean some people are r do their work primarily by sitting at the computer , flipping around the web , and others do not .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Others would consider it {disfmarker} this uh {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a set of skills that they would have to gain . You know ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I think most of the people in the meetings are the former .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It depends on what meetings .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So far .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "In the meetings so far , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But we 're trying to expand this , right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I actually think that paper is the more universal thing .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And that {disfmarker} Well , but if they want to print it out that 's alright .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I think everyone in the meeting can access the web .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I think we have to be able to print it out . It 's not just if they want to print it out . I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK , so does that mean that I can't use email ? Or what ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz you could send it through email you 're thinking .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I th", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "well {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} there was this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "well I don't think we can send the text through email because of the privacy issues .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good . For security ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um . So giving them , you think a web site to say , \" if you wanna print it out here it is \" , is not sufficient ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Good point . ", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah . I", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Certainly for everybody who 's been in the meetings so far it would be sufficient .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I 'm just thinking for people that that 's not sufficient for , what {disfmarker} the only sufficient thing would be for me to walk up to them and hand it to them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I 'm just wondering about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You could mail it to them .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Get an a mailing address .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Equivalent .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I think it 's easier to drop in the box .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Just put the button on {disfmarker} on the web page which say \" please send me the {disfmarker} the scripts \" .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh that 's interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What um {disfmarker} When you display it on the web page , what are {disfmarker} what are you showing them ? Utterances , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so can they bleep within an utterance ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "No . Whole utterances only .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Whole utterances .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And that was just convenience for my sake , that it 's uh , uh it would end up being fairly difficult to edit the transcripts if we would do it at the sub - utterance level . Because this way I can just delete an entire line out of a transcript file rather than have to do it by hand .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's another aspect to this which maybe {disfmarker} is part of why this is bothering me . Um , I think you 're really trying very hard to make this as convenient as possible for people to do this .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean that 's why I did the web form , because for me that would be my most convenient .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I understand .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I know where you 're going .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I think that 's the bad idea .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "See because you 're gon you 're {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Really . You 're gonna end up with all these little patchy things , whereas really what we want to do is have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the bias towards letting it go . Because nob you know it {disfmarker} There was a {disfmarker} one or twi once or twice , in the re in the meetings we 've heard , where somebody said something that they might be embarrassed by , but overall people are talking about technical topics . Nobody 's gonna get hurt . Nobody 's being l libeled . You know , this is {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're covering {disfmarker} We 're playing the lawyer 's game , and we 're playing we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're looking for the extreme case . If we really orient it towards that extreme case , make it really easy , we 're gonna end up encouraging a headache . That {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} I 'm sort of psyching myself out here , I {disfmarker} I 'm trying to {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I guess I don't see having a few phrases here and there in a meeting being that mu much of a headache , bleeped out .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I think what Morgan 's saying is the easier it is , the more is gonna be bleeped .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "but i And {disfmarker} and it really depends on what kind of research you 're doing . I think some researchers who are gonna be working with this corpus years from now are really gonna be cursing the fact that there 's a bunch of stuff in there {comment} that 's missing from the dialogue .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know , it depends on the kind of research they 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but it might be , uh {pause} it might be really a {disfmarker} a pain . And , you know where it 's really gonna hurt somebody , in some way {disfmarker} the one who said it or someone who is being spoken about , {comment} we definitely want to allow the option of it being bleeped out . But I really think we wanna make it the rare incidence . And {disfmarker} and uh , I am just a little worried about making it so easy for people to do , and so much fun ! {vocalsound} that they 're gonna go through and bleep out stuff .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So much fun .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "and they can bleep out stuff they don't like too , right from somebody else , as you say , you know , so \" well I didn't like what he said . \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I don't see any way of avoiding that . I mean , we have to provi we have promised that we would provide them the transcript and that they can remove parts that they don't like . So that the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No , no , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The only question is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You - you 've talked me into that , but I {disfmarker} I just think that we should make it harder to do .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The problem is if it 's harder for them it 's also harder for me . Whereas this web interface , I just get email , it 's all formatted , it 's all ready to go and I can just insert it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So maybe you don't give them access to the web interface unless they really need it . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I guess {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} So maybe this is a s a way out of it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You 've provided something that 's useful for you to do {disfmarker} handle , and useful for someone else if they need it . But I think the issue of privacy and ease and so forth should be that uh , they get access to this if they really need it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So you 're saying the {disfmarker} the sequence would be more like first Adam goes to the contact lists , contacts them via whatever their preferred method is , to see if they want to review the meeting .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And then if they don't , you 're done . If they do , then he provides them access to the {disfmarker} the web site .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well , to some extent I have to do that anyway because as I said we have to distribute passwords .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "W w", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} a printed - out form .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "y but you don't necessarily have to distribute passwords is what I 'm saying .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Only if they want it .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "what I 'm saying is that I can't just email them the password because that 's not secure . So they have to call me and ask .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , no , no . But you aren't necessarily giving them {disfmarker} Right . But {disfmarker} we don't even necessarily need to end up distributing passwords at all .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , we do because of privacy . We can't just make it openly available on the web .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , no . You 're missing the point .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "We 're {disfmarker} We 're trying i We 're trying to make it less of an obvious just l l l l uh fall off a log , to do this .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Not everyone gets a password , unless they ask for it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right ? So th so what I would see , is that first you contact them and ask them if they would like to review it for to check for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "not just for fun , OK ? but to {disfmarker} to check this for uh things that they 're worried about having said or if they 're willing to just send an approval of it , at {disfmarker} from their memory . Um {disfmarker} and , uh , and we should think carefully actually we should review {disfmarker} go through how that 's worded , OK ? Then , if someone uh {disfmarker} wants to review it , uh , and I know you don't like this , but I 'm offering this as a suggestion , is that {disfmarker} is that we then give them a print out . And then if they say that \" I have a potential problem with these things , \" then , you {disfmarker} you say \" OK well you might wanna hear this in context to s think if you need that , \" you issue them a password , i in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But the {disfmarker} the problem with what you 're suggesting is it 's not just inconvenient for them , it 's inconvenient for me . Because that means multiple contacts every time {disfmarker} for every single meeting every time anyone wants anything . I would much prefer to have all be automatic , they visit the web site if they want to . Obviously they don't have to .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I know you 'd prefer it , but the proble", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "we have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So I think you 're thinking people are going to arbitrarily start bleeping and I just don't think that 's gonna happen .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "there 's a problem with it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm also concerned about the spirit of the {disfmarker} of the informed consent thing . Cuz I think if they feel that uh , it 's {disfmarker} I th I th You know , if it turns out that something gets published in this corpus that someone really should have eliminated and didn't detect , then it could have been because of their own negligence that they didn't pursue that next level and get the password and do that , um , but {disfmarker} but they might be able to argue \" oh well it was cumbersome , and I was busy and it was gonna take me too much time to trace it down \" . So it could that the burden would come back onto us . So I 'm a little bit worried about uh , making it harder for them , from the legal standpoint .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well you can go too far in that direction , and you need to find somewhere between I think ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "It seems to me that sending them email , saying \" if you have an O - OK reply to this email and say OK ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "If you have a problem with it contact me and I 'll give you a password \" , seems like is a perfectly , reasonable compromise . And if they want a printout they can print it out themselves .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or we could print it up for them ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean we could offer that {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but there 's uh , another aspect to that and that is that in the informed consent form , um , my impression is that they {disfmarker} that we offered them at the very least that they definitely would have access to the transcript . And {disfmarker} and I ha", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know that there 's a chance of really skipping that stage . I mean I {disfmarker} I thought that you were {disfmarker} Maybe I misinterpreted what you said but it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Having access to it doesn't necessarily mean , that {disfmarker} having it", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Having it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Giving it to them .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well the in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ? It just means they have the right to have it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "the consent form is right in there if anyone wants to look at it ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright . Fine . OK . Fair enough .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "D you want me to grab one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sh - sh well I could {disfmarker} I 'm closer .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , but you 're wired", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "aren't you ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . That is true .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um . {vocalsound} Yeah , I mean I don't wanna fool them ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I just meant that e every {disfmarker} ev any time you say anything to anyone there is in fact a {disfmarker} a bias that is presented ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah {disfmarker} oh I know .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" If you agree to participate you 'll have the opportunity to have anything ex anything excised , which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "of {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's true . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "\" Once a transcript is available we will ask your permission to include the data in the corpus for the r larger research community .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There again you will be allowed to indicate any sections that you 'd prefer to have excised from the database , and they will m be removed both from the transcript and the recording . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Well that 's more open than I realized .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well , I mean it {disfmarker} The one question is definitely clear with anything as opposed to just what you said .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh no that {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} tha", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Tha - that 's true . That 's more severe , but the next one says the transcript will be around .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "that 's right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And it doesn't {comment} really say we 'll send it to you , or wi it 'll be available for you on the web , or anything .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I think it probably leaves it open how we get it to them .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "At least it more often . Yeah . It means also we don't have to g To give it to them . I mean like {disfmarker} like Morgan was saying they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "They just have to make sure that it is available to them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's available to them if they ask for it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , so . wh um {disfmarker} I think I have an idea that may be sat may satisfy both you and me in this which is , um , it 's a {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} we just go over carefully how these notes to people are worded . So I {disfmarker} I just want it to be worded in such a way where it gives the strong impre it gives very , I mean nothing hidden , v very strongly the bias that we would really like to use all of these data .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} that we really would rather it wasn't a patchwork of things tossed out ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "that it would be better for , um , our , uh , field if that is the case . But if you really think something is gonna {disfmarker} And I don't think there 's anything in the legal aspects that {disfmarker} that is hurt by our expressing that bias .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Great . Great , great .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} then my concern about {disfmarker} which {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I agree .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "you know you might be right , it may be it was just paranoia on my part , uh but people just {disfmarker} See I 'm @ @ worried about this interface so much fun {vocalsound} that people start bleeping stuff out {comment} {vocalsound} just as {disfmarker} just because they can .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It 's just a check box next to the text , it 's not any fun at all .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well I don't know . I kind of had fun when you played me something that was bleeped out . You know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , but they won't get that feedback .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "All {disfmarker} no because it doesn't automatically bleep it at the time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh they won't ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It just sends me {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh good . So you haven't made it so much fun .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh good .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It just sends me the time intervals .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And then at some point I 'll incorporate them all and put bleeps . I mean I don't wanna have t ha do that yet until we actually release the data", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "because um , then we have to have two copies of every meeting and we 're already short on disk space .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I wanna {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} just keep the times until we actually wanna release the data and then we bleep it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Alright , so I think {disfmarker} Yeah so if we have if {disfmarker} i Again let 's you know , sort of circulate the {disfmarker} the wording on each of these things and get it right ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well since you seem to feel heart uh , strongest about it , would you like to do the first pass ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} OK . Uh , fair enough . Turn about is fair play ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Al - Also it ther there is this other question , the legal question that {disfmarker} that Adam 's raised , uh about whether we need a concrete signature , or email c i suffices or whatever", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and I don't know how that works . i There 's something down there about \" if you agree to {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I thought about it with one of my background processes", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and I {disfmarker} uh it 's {disfmarker} uh it 's uh , it 's fine to do the email .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Ah . Fine .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah because thi th they 're signing here that they 're agreeing to the paragraph which says \" you 'll be given an opportunity . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good . OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And so I don't think they need another signature .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Well and furthermore I {disfmarker} it 's now fairly routine in a lot of arrangements that I do with people on contracts and so forth that {disfmarker} that uh if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's that sort of thing where you 're you 're saying uh \" OK I agree , we want eighty hours of this person at such - and - such amount , and I agree that 's OK , \" uh if it 's a follow up to some other agreement where there was a signature it 's often done in email now", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so it 's {disfmarker} it 's OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So I guess I probably should at the minimum , think about how to present it in a printed form . I 'm not really sure what 's best with that . The problem is a lot of them are really short ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "and so I don't necessarily wanna do one per line . But I don't know how else to do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well I s I also have this {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice you have it uh , viewab her {comment} hearable on the {disfmarker} on the web for those who might wonder about um , the non nonverbal side , I mean I {disfmarker} I agree that our bias should be as {disfmarker} as expressed here , and {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice that a person could check . Cuz sometimes you know you {disfmarker} the words on a {disfmarker} on the page , come out soun sounding different in terms of the {pause} social dynamics if they hear it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And I realize we shouldn't emphasize that people {comment} you know , shouldn't borrow trouble . What it comes down to but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah I think actually {disfmarker} my opinion probably is that the only time someone will need to listen to it is if the transcript is uh not good . You know , if {disfmarker} if there are lots of mumbles and parentheses and things like that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , you know , or what if there was an error in the transcript that didn't get detected and there was a whole uh {disfmarker} i segment a against some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} personal {vocalsound} i th", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right . That was all mumbled ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think Microsoft is", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah exactly", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sorry transcribers .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even {disfmarker} {vocalsound} or even {comment} there was a {disfmarker} a line you know about how \" hmm - mmm - mmm {comment} Bill Gates duh - duh - duh - duh . \"", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but it was all {disfmarker} the words were all visible , but they didn't end up i some there was a slip in the transcript .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , God .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "They 're gonna hate this meeting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Actually Liz will like it . You know , but .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Liz will like it . We had a pretty strong disagreement going there .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep , yep , that 's right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So I don't know . I mean , I {disfmarker} I guess we 're assuming that the transcript is a close enough approximation and that {disfmarker} that my double checking will be {pause} so close to absolutely perfect that it {disfmarker} that nothing will slip by .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} some something might sometime , and they {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's something that they said , they might {disfmarker} i i I mean , you might be very accurate in putting down what they actually said ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "but , when they hear it , themselves , they may hear something different because they know what they meant .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know how to notate that .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Sarcasm ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "how do you {disfmarker} how do you indicate sarcasm ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's right .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "No , I 'm serious . So {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} i the {disfmarker} so we might {disfmarker} we might get some feedback from people that such - and - such was , you know , not {disfmarker} not really what I said .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well that would be good to get , definitely .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , but , Yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Just for corrections .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So um , in terms of password distribution , I think phone is really the only way to do it , phone and in person . Or mail , physical mail .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or if for leave it on their voice mail .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Any sub - word level thing . ", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Any sub - wor Yeah , OK . I mean you could do it with PGP or things like that but it 's too complex .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know I just realized something , which is of {disfmarker} e th this question about the {disfmarker} uh the possible mismatch of {disfmarker} I mean i well , and actually also the lawyer saying that um , we shouldn't really have them {disfmarker} have the people believing that they will be cleared by our checks . You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean . So it 's like i in a way it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to have the responsibility still on them to listen to the tape and {disfmarker} and hear the transcript , to have that be the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well yeah , but you can't dep I mean , most people will not wanna take the time to do that , though .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , fair enough . And they 're s they 're absorbing the responsibility themselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And they {disfmarker} they have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not um {disfmarker} Yeah , good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "But I mean if you were at a meeting , and {disfmarker} and you {disfmarker} you don't think , at least , that you said anything funny and the meeting was about , you know , some {disfmarker} some funny thing about semantics or something , or uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You probably won't listen to it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It is true that tec that the content is technical , I {disfmarker} and so i and we 're not having these discussions which {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , when I listen to these things , I don't find things that are questionable , in other people 's speech or in my own .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah . You would think it would be rare ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} It should be very rare .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean we 're not talking about the energy crisis or something , people have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "How about them energy crises .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think we 're uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Done ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Kind of done . Actually , I was gonna {disfmarker} Di - Did you have anything n that 's going on , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Not really . No . Um , {vocalsound} my project is going along but um , I 'm really just here to um fill the project uh {disfmarker} the overall progress . I don't really have anything specific to {disfmarker} to talk about .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's fine . I just didn't wanna go by you , if you had something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You don't have anything to say .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": " ", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Transcribers , he was rattling the b marbles in his brain back and forth just then this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Shall we do digits ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , oh by the way I did find a bunch {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It um", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh , we should count out how many more digits to forms do we have back there ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There were quite a few . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "That 's what I thought . I f I was going through them all and I found actually a lot filed in with them , that were blanks , that no one had actually read .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And so we still have more than I thought we did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh good .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So , we have a few more digits before we 're done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know having this headset reminds me of like working at Burger King or something .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , did you do that ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Burger King", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I 'd like a burger with that ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No I never did .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "do you want fries with that ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But I feel like I could now .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And {pause}", "speaker": "Grad C" } ]

[ { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So are you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Are we going ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It is uh , must be February fifteenth .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yu I think the date 's written in there , yep . And actually if everyone could cross out the R - nine next to \" Session \" , and write MR eleven .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . We didn't have a front - end meeting today .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And let 's remember also to make sure that one 's {comment} gets marked as unread , unused .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "MR eleven .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "MR eleven .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That sounds like a spy code .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mmm . OK . So .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There 's lots of clicking I 'm sure as I 'm trying to get this to work {pause} correctly .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Agenda . Any agenda items today ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I wanna talk a little bit about getting {disfmarker} how we 're gonna to get people to edit bleeps , parts of the meeting that they don't want to include . What I 've done so far , and I wanna get some opinions on , how to {disfmarker} how to finish it up .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I wanna ask about um , some aud audio monitoring on some of the {pause} um {pause} well some of the equipment . In particular , the {disfmarker} well uh , that 's just what I wanna ask .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK audio monitoring , Jane .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Ba - based on some of the tran uh {disfmarker} i In listening to {pause} some of these meetings that have already been recorded there are sometimes big spikes on particular things , and in pact {disfmarker} in fact this one I 'm talking on is one of {disfmarker} of the ones that showed up in one of the meetings ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh really .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "\" Spikes \" , you mean like uh , instantaneous click type spikes , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Spikes ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Clicks .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And I don't know what the e electronics is but .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well , I think it 's", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Touching .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "uh , it {disfmarker} it could be a number of things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It could be touching and fiddling , and the other thing is that it could {disfmarker} the fact that it 's on a wired mike is suspicious . It might be a connector .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , OK . Well maybe {disfmarker} Then we don't really have to talk about that as an {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You could try an experiment and say \" OK , I 'm about to test for spikes \" ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I take that off the agenda .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "and then wiggle the thing there , and then go and when they go to transcribe it , it could , ask them to come and get you .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Come get me when you transcribe this and see if there 's spikes . \"", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Oh that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "No I 'm just {disfmarker} ", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean , were this a professional audio recording , {vocalsound} what we would do {disfmarker} {comment} what you would do is {disfmarker} in testing it is , you would actually do all this wiggling and make sure that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that things are not giving that kind of performance . And if they are , then they can't be used .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . Um . Let 's see . I guess {pause} I would like to have a discussion about you know where we are on uh , recording , transcription you know , basically you know where we are on the corpus .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And then um , the other thing which I would like to talk about which is a real meta - quest , I think , deal is , uh , agendas . So maybe I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll start with that actually . Uh , um . {vocalsound} Andreas brought up the fact that he would kinda like to know , if possible , what we were gonna be talking about because he 's sort of peripherally involved to this point , and if there 's gonna be a topic about {disfmarker} discussion about something that he uh strongly cares about then he would come and {disfmarker} And I think part of {disfmarker} part of his motivation with this is that he 's trying to help us out , in the {disfmarker} because of uh the fact that the meetings are {disfmarker} are tending to become reasonably large now on days when everybody shows up and so , he figures he could help that out by not showing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and I 'm sure help out his own time . by not showing up if it 's a meeting that he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} So , uh in order {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} I think that this is a wish on his part . Uh . It 's actually gonna be hard because it seems like a lot of times uh things come up that are unanticipated and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But um , we could try anyway , uh , do another try at coming up with the agenda uh , at some point before the meeting , uh , say the day before .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well maybe it would be a good idea for one of us to {pause} like on Wednesday , or Tuesday send out a reminder for people to send in agenda items .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK . You {disfmarker} you wanna volunteer to do that ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Alright so we 'll send out agenda request .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Let me", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} I think that 'll help {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I 'll put that on my spare brain or it will not {pause} get done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 'll help a lot , actually .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have to tell you for the uh {disfmarker} for the admin meeting that we have , Lila does that um every time before an admin meeting . And uh , she ends up getting the agenda requests uh , uh ten minutes before the meeting . But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} {comment} But . Uh . {comment} But we can try . Maybe it 'll work .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe . Weirder things have happened .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm wondering if he were to just , uh , specify particular topics , I mean . Maybe we 'd be able to meet that request of his a little more .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I would {disfmarker} I would also guess that as we get more into processing the data and things like that there 'll be more things of interest to him .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Actually it {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this maybe brings up another topic which is um {disfmarker} So we 're done with that topic . The other topic I was thinking of was the sta status on microphones and channels , and all that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , actually I {disfmarker} I was going to say we need to {pause} talk about that too .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Why {disfmarker} why don't we do that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK . Um , the new microphones , the two new ones are in . Um . {pause} And they are being assembled as we speak , I hope . And I didn't bring my car today so I 'm gonna pick them up tomorrow . Um , and then the other question I was thinking about is {disfmarker} well , a couple things . First of all , if the other headsets are a lot more comfortable , we should probably just go ahead and get them . So we 'll have to evaluate that when they come in ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and get people 's opinions on {disfmarker} on what they think of them . Um , then the other question I had is maybe we should get another wireless . Another wireless setup . I mean it 's expensive , but it does seem to be {pause} better than the wired .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So how many channels do you get to have in a wireless setup ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , well , I 'm pretty sure that you can daisy - chain them together so what we would do is replace the wired mikes with wireless . So we currently have one base station with six wireless mike , possibility of six wireless receivers , and apparently you can chain those together . And so we could replace our wired mikes with wireless if we bought another base station and more wireless mikes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} So , you know it 's still , it 's fifteen minus six .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So let 's see we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right ? So we could have up to nine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And right now we can have up to six .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right . And we have five , we 're getting one more .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And it 's um , about nine hundred dollars for the base station , and then eight hundred per channel .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh . So yeah so the only {disfmarker} Beyond the mike {disfmarker} the cost of the mikes the only thing is the base station that 's nine hundred dollars .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , we should do it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK . OK , so I 'll look into how you daisy - chain them and {disfmarker} and then just go ahead and order them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't quite understand how that {disfmarker} how that works , . If {disfmarker} So we 're not increasing the number of channels . OK .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "No , we 're just replacing the wired {disfmarker} the two wired that are still working ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . I see .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "along with a couple of the wired that aren't working , one of the wired that 's not working , with a wireless .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Three wireds work ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Basically we found {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I guess three wireds work , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But we 've had more problems with that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And that sort of bypasses the whole {disfmarker} the whole Jimbox thing and all that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so um , we {disfmarker} we seem to have uh , a reliable way of getting the data in , which is through the ra Sony radio mikes , as long as we 're conscious about the batteries .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That seems to be the key issue .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Everyone 's battery OK ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I checked them this morning , they should be .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , {vocalsound} That 's the only thing with them . But the quality seems really good and {disfmarker} Um I heard from UW that they 're {disfmarker} they 're uh very close to getting their , uh setup purchased . They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're buying something that you can just sort of buy off the shelf .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well we should talk to them about it because I know that SRI is also in the process of looking at stuff , and so , you know , what we should try to keep everyone {disfmarker} on the same page with that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "SRI , really ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "They got sa apparent Well , Maybe {pause} this needs to be bleeped out ? I have no clue .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know how much of it 's public .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Probably we shouldn't {disfmarker} probably we shouldn't talk about funding stuff .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . But anyway there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's uh , uh other activities that are going on there and {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} and NIST and UW . So . Um . But {disfmarker} but yeah I thin I think that at least the message we can tell other people is that our experience is {disfmarker} is quite positive with the Sony ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "uh , radio - mikes . Now the one thing that you have said that actually concerns me a little is you 're talking about changing the headsets meaning changing the connector , which means some hand - soldering or something , right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , no , we 're having the {disfmarker} them do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So it 's so hand - soldering it , but I 'm not doing it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , they {disfmarker} they charge", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Nothing against you and your hand - soldering", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You 've never seen my hand - soldering . But uh , a as I said they 're coming in .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , so that 's being done professionally and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "As professionally as I guess you can get it done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , it could {disfmarker} if they do a lot of it , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean i it 's just their repair shop . Right ? Their maintenance people .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , we 'll see what it {disfmarker} it 's like .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} tha that can be quite good . Th - this {disfmarker} Yeah , OK . Good . Yeah . So let 's go with that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And , I mean we 'll see , tomorrow , you know , what it looks like .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , Yeah . So , um , uh , Dave isn't here but he was going to start working on some things with the digits . Uh , so he 'll be interested in what 's going on with that . I guess {disfmarker} Was {disfmarker} the decision last time was that the {disfmarker} the uh transcribers were going to be doing stuff with the digits as well ? Has that started , or is that {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah . Uh , it would be to use his interface and I was going to meet with him today about that .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right , so , the decision was that Jane did not want the transcribers to be doing any of the paperwork . So I did the {disfmarker} all that last week . So all the {disfmarker} all the forms are now {pause} on the computer . And uh , then I have a bunch of scripts that we 'll read those and let the uh {pause} transcribers use different tools . And I just want to talk to Jane about how we transition to using those .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . So he has a nice set up that they {disfmarker} it w it will be efficient for them to do that .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't think it 'll take too long .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So anyway {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So , you know , just uh , a matter of a few days I suspect .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So anyway I think we {disfmarker} we have at least one uh , user for the digits once they get done , which will be Dave .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right . I 've already done five or six {pause} sets .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So if he wanted to , you know , just have a few to start with , he could . You know , and I also have a bunch of scripts that will , like , generate P - files and run recognition on them also .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , he might {disfmarker} he might be asking {disfmarker} Right . OK . Uh , is Dave {disfmarker} I don't know if Dave is on the list , if he 's invited to these meetings , uh if he knows .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't tend to get an invitation myself for them even .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "No , no .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , we don't have a active one but I 'll make sure he 's on the list .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Should we call him ? I mean is he {disfmarker} d is he definitely not available today ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Should I call his office and see ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "He was in .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean , he 's still taking classes , so uh , he may well have conflicts .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , well i it 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , he was in {pause} s", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He wasn't there at cof", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , so this might be a conflict for him .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK . Uh , so .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah didn't he say his signal - processing class was like {pause} Tuesdays and Thursdays ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I think he has a class . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . He might have .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Oh well , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You talking about David Gelbart ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think he 's taking two twenty - five A which is now .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK . So , that 's why we 're not seeing him . OK . Uh , transcriptions , uh , beyond the digits , where we are , and so on .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the recordings also ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "just where we are . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , so um , should we {disfmarker} we don't wan wanna do the recording status first , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well , we have about thirty - two hours uh as of , I guess a week and a half ago , so we probably now have about thirty - five hours .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh {disfmarker} How much of that is digits ? It 's uh {disfmarker} that 's including digits ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's including digits .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I haven't separated it out so I have no clue how much of that is digits .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah . So anyway there 's at least probably thirty hours , or something of {disfmarker} There 's got to be more than thirty hour {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Of {disfmarker} of non - digits ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "i it couldn't {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} Of non - digits .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , absolutely . I mean , the digits don't take up that much time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK , and the transcribers h I , uh , don't have the exact numbers , but I {pause} think it would come to about eleven hours that are finished uh , transcribing from them right now . The next step is to {disfmarker} that I 'm working on is to insure that the data are clean first , and then channelized . What I mean by clean is that they 're spell - checked , that the mark - up is consistent all the way throughout , and also that we now incorporate these additional conventions that uh , Liz requested in terms of um , um {pause} in terms of having a s a systematic handling of numbers , and acronyms which I hadn't been specific about . Um , for example , i they 'll say uh \" ninety - two \" . And you know , so how {disfmarker} you could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Nine two ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "e Exactly .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So if you just say \" nine two \" , the {disfmarker} there are many s ways that could have been expressed . An - and I just had them {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I mean , a certain number of them did put the words down , but now we have a convention which also involves having it followed by , um , a gloss th and things .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You know , Jane ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , one suggestion and you may already be doing this , but I 've noticed in the past that when I 've gone through transcriptions and you know in {disfmarker} in order to build lexicons and things , if you um , just take all the transcriptions and separate them into words and then alphabetize them , {comment} a lot of times just scanning down that list you 'll find a lot of {pause} inconsistencies and mis", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Misspelled .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You 're talking about the type token frequency listings , and I use those too . Y you mean just uh {pause} on each {disfmarker} on each line there 's a one word right ? It 's one token from the {disfmarker} from the corpus .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , those are e extremely efficient and I and I {disfmarker} I agree that 's a very good use of it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh so you already have that , OK .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well that 's {disfmarker} that 's a way {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} You know , the spell - check basically does that but {disfmarker} but in addition {disfmarker} yes , that 's {disfmarker} that 's exactly the strategy I wanna do in terms of locating these things which are you know colloquial spoken forms which aren't in the lexicon .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Cuz a lot of times they 'll appear next to each other , and uh ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Exactly . And then you ca then you can do a s", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "i in alphabetized lists , they 'll appear next to each other and {disfmarker} and so it makes it easier .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Absolutely . I agree . That 's a very good {disfmarker} that 's a very good uh , suggestion . And that was {disfmarker} that 's my strategy for handling a lot of these things , in terms of things that need to be glossed . I didn't get to that point but {disfmarker} So there are numbers , then there are acronyms , and then um , there 's a {disfmarker} he she wants the uh , actually a {disfmarker} an explicit marker of what type of comment this is , so i curly b inside the curly brackets I 'm gonna put either \" VOC \" for vocalized , like cough or like laugh or whatever , \" NONVOC \" for door - slam , and \" GLOSS \" for things that have to do with {disfmarker} if they said a s a spoken form with this {disfmarker} m this pronunciation error .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I already had that convention", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh that 's great .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "but I {disfmarker} I haven't been asking these people to do it systematically cuz I think it most {disfmarker} ha most efficiently handled by uh {disfmarker} by a {disfmarker} a filter . That was what I was always planing on . So that , you know you get a whole long list {disfmarker} exactly what you 're saying , you get a whole list of things that say \" curly bracket laugh curly bracket \" ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "then y you know it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you risk less error if you handle it by a filter , than if you have this transcriber ch laboriously typing in sort of a VOC space ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "so man So many ways that error prone .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So , um , {vocalsound} um I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm going to convert that via a filter , into these tagged uh , subcategorized comments , and same thing with you know , we see you get a subset when you do what you 're saying ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "you end up with a s with uh , you 're collapsing across a frequency you just have the tokens", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "and you can um , have a filter which more efficiently makes those changes . But the numbers and acronyms have to be handled by hand , because , you know I mean , jus", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You don't know what they could be .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah now TIMIT 's clear um {pause} and PLP is clear but uh there are things that are not so well known , in {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} or have variant {disfmarker} u u uses like the numbers you can say \" nine two \" or you can say \" ninety - two \" ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So how are you doing the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and uh I 'd handle the numbers individually .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "How are you doing the uh , acronyms so if I say PZM what would it appear on the transcript ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It would be separate {disfmarker} The letters would be separated in space", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and potentially they 'll have a curly bracket thing afterwards e but I 'm not sure if that 's necessary , clarifying what it is ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so gloss of {pause} whatever .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know if that 's really necessary to do that . Maybe it 's a nice thing to do because of it then indicating this is uh , a step away from i indicating that it really is intentional that those spaces are there , and indicating why they 're there to indicate that it 's uh {vocalsound} the you know , {comment} uh enumerated , or i", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "it 's not a good way of saying {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} it 's the {vocalsound} specific uh way of stating these {disfmarker} these letters .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right . So it sounds good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so anyway , the clean {disfmarker} those are those things and then channelized is to then um , get it into this multichannel format . And at that point then it 's ready for use by Liz and Don . But that 's been my top priority {disfmarker} beyond getting it tanel channelized , the next step is to work on tightening up the boundaries of the time bins .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And uh , Thilo had a {disfmarker} e e a breakthrough with this {disfmarker} this last week in terms of getting the channel - based um uh s s speech - nonspeech segmentation um , up and running and I haven't {disfmarker} I haven't been able to use that yet cuz I 'm working s re this is my top priority {disfmarker} get the data clean , and channelized .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I actually gave", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Have you also been doing spot checks , Jane ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Okay , good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well you see that 's part of the cleaning process . I spent um actually um I have a segment of ten minutes that was transcribed by two of our transcribers ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh good . Good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and I went through it last night , it 's {disfmarker} it 's almost spooky how similar these are , word for word . And there are some differences in commas cuz commas I {disfmarker} I left them discretion at commas .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} and so because it 's not part of our st of our ne needed conventions .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And um , and {disfmarker} so they 'll be a difference in commas , but it 's word - by - word the same , in {disfmarker} in huge patches of the data . And I have t ten minute stretch where I can {disfmarker} where I can show that . And {disfmarker} and sometimes it turns out that one of these transcribers has a better ear for technical jargon , and the other one has a better ear for colloquial speech . So um , the one i i the colloquial speech person picked up \" gobbledy - gook \" .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And the other one didn't . And on this side , this one 's picking up things like \" neural nets \" and the one that 's good on the sp o on th the vocabulary on the uh colloquial didn't .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "When {disfmarker} for the person who missed \" gobbledy - gook \" what did they put ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "It was an interesting approximation , put in parentheses , cuz I have this convention that , i if they 're not sure what it was , they put it in parentheses .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So they tried to approximate it , but it was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh good .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "it was spelled GABBL {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Sort of how it sounds . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yes . More of an attempt to {disfmarker} I mean apparently it was very clear to her that these {disfmarker} the a this {disfmarker} this was a sound {disfmarker} these are the sounds ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "It was a technical term that she didn't recognize ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah . But she knew that she didn't know it . Maybe it was a technical ter exactly . But she {disfmarker} even though her technical perception is just really {disfmarker} uh you know I 've {disfmarker} I 'm tempted to ask her if she 's taken any courses in this area or if she 's taken cognitive science courses", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "then cuz \" neural nets \" and {disfmarker} oh she has some things that are {disfmarker} oh \" downsampled \" , she got that right .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And some of these are rather {pause} uh unexpected .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Obscure , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But ch ten solid uh {disfmarker} m ch s chunk of ten solid minutes where they both coded the same data .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and again the main track that you 're working with is elev eleven hours ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Is that right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yes exactly .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And that 's part of this {disfmarker} Eleven hours .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Is that {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} that including digits ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yes it is .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So let 's say roughly {pause} ten hours or so of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean it 's probably more than that but {disfmarker} but with {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of non - digits .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 'd be more than that because I {disfmarker} my recollection is the minutes {disfmarker} that da digits don't take more than half a minute . Per person .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But um {pause} the {disfmarker} the total set that I gave them is twelve hours of tape ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , I see .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But they haven't gotten to the end of that yet .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , I see .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So they 're still working {disfmarker} some of them are {disfmarker} Two of them are still working on completing that . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Boy , they 're moving right along .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . They are . Mm - hmm . They 're very efficient . There 're some who have more hours that they devote to it than others .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what 's the deal with {disfmarker} with your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The channel u thing ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's just uh , I ran the recognizer {disfmarker} uh , the {pause} {comment} speech - nonspeech detector on different channels and , it 's just in uh {disfmarker} in this new multi - channel format and output , and I just gave one {disfmarker} one meeting to {disfmarker} to Liz who wanted to {disfmarker} to try it for {disfmarker} for the recognizer", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , I see .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "as uh , apparently the recognizer had problems with those long chunks of speech , which took too much memory or whatever ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and so {pause} she {disfmarker} she will try that I think", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm working on it . So , I hope {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Is this anything different than the HMM system you were using before ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No . Uh , I {pause} mmm , use some {disfmarker} some different features but not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The basic thing is this HMM base .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So there 's still no {disfmarker} no knowledge using different channels at the same time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There is some , uh as the energy is normalized across channels", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You know what I mean ? Across all of them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . But basically that 's one of the main changes .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . What are some of the other features ? Besides the energy ? You said you 're trying some different features , or something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh I just uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mmm , I just use um our loudness - based things now as they {disfmarker} before there were {disfmarker} they were some in {disfmarker} in the log domain and I {disfmarker} I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Cu - Cube root ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . To {disfmarker} No , I changed this to the {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker} to the loudness thingy with the {disfmarker} with the", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "how do you call it ? I 'm not sure . With the , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Fletcher Munson ? No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm not sure about the term .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , I 'll look it up . And say it to you .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , alright .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Uh , OK , and {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} that 's basically the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the thing . Yeah , and I {disfmarker} and I tried t to normalize uh {disfmarker} uh the features , there 's loudness and modified loudness , um , within one channel ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "because they 're , {vocalsound} yeah to {disfmarker} to be able to distinguish between foreground and background speech . And it works quite well . But , not always .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , let 's see . I think the uh {disfmarker} Were {disfmarker} were you basically done with the transcription part ? So I guess the next thing is this uh {disfmarker} bleep editing .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right . So the {disfmarker} The idea is that we need to have {disfmarker} We need to provide the transcripts to every participant of every meeting to give them an opportunity to bleep out sections they don't want . So I 've written a bunch of tools that will generate web pages , uh with the transcription in it so that they can click on them and piece {disfmarker} pieces and they can scroll through and read them , and then they can check on each one if they want it excluded . And then , it 's a form , HTML form , so they can submit it and it will end up sending me email with the times that they want excluded . And so , uh , some of the questions on this is what do we do about the privacy issue . And so I thought about this a little bit and I think the best way to do it is every participant will have a password ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "a single password . Each person will have a single password , user name and password . And then each meeting , we 'll only allow the participants who were at that meeting to look at it . And that way each person only has to remember one password .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I can't help but wonder if this is maybe a little more elaborate than is needed . I mean if people have {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , for me I would actually want to have some pieces of paper that had the transcription and I would sort of flip through it . And then {pause} um {pause} if I thought it was OK , I 'd say \" it 's OK \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And , I {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean it depends how this really ends up working out , but I guess my thought was that the occasion of somebody wondering whether something was OK or not and needing to listen to it was gonna be extremely rare .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right , I mean so th th th the fact that you could listen to it over the web is a minor thing that I had already done for {pause} other reasons .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And so that {disfmarker} that 's a minor part of it , I just wanted some web interface so that people {disfmarker} you didn't actually have to send everyone the text . So m what my intention to do is that as the transcripts become ready , um {pause} I would take them , and generate the web pages and send email to every participant or contact them using the contact method they wanted , and just uh , tell them , \" here 's the web page \" , um , \" you need a password \" . So th th question number one is how do we distribute the passwords , and question number two is how else do we wanna provide this information if they want it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} I think what I was sort of saying is that if you just say {vocalsound} \" here is a {disfmarker} here is {disfmarker} \" I mean this maybe it sounds paleolithic but {disfmarker} but I just thought if you handed them some sheets of paper , that said , uh , \" here 's what was said in this transcription is it OK with you ? and if it is , here 's this other sheet of paper that you sign that says that it 's OK \" .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I think that um there are a subset of people who will want printouts that we can certainly provide .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And then they 'd hand it back to you .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But certainly I wouldn't want a printout . These are big , and I would much rather be {pause} ha be able to just sit and leaf through it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You find it easier to go through a large {disfmarker} I mean how do you read books ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I certainly read books by hand . But for something like this , I think it 's easier to do it on the web .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Really ? I mean , it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Cuz you 're gonna get , you know , if I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm in a bunch of meetings and I don't wanna get a stack of these . I wanna just be able to go to {disfmarker} go to the web site {comment} and visit it as I want .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Going to a web site is easy , but flipping through a hundred pounds {disfmarker} a hundred pages of stuff is not easy on the web .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think it 's that much harder than , paper . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I have one question . So are you thinking that um the person would have a transcript and go strictly from the transcript ? Because I {disfmarker} I do think that there 's a benefit to being able to hear the tone of voice and the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So here 's the way I was imagining it , and maybe I 'm wrong ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "but the way I imagined it was that um , the largest set of people is gonna go \" oh yeah , I didn't say anything funny in that meeting just go ahead , where 's the {disfmarker} where 's the release ? \" And then there 'll be a subset of people , right ? {disfmarker} OK there 's {disfmarker} I mean think of who it is we 've been recording mostly .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "OK there 'll be a subset of people , who um , will say uh \" well , yeah , I really would like to see that . \" And for them , the easiest way to flip through , if it 's a really large document , I mean unless you 're searching . Searching , of course , should be electronic , but if you 're not {disfmarker} so if you provide some search mechanism you go to every place they said something or something like that ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but see then we 're getting more elaborate with this thing . Um if {disfmarker} if uh you don't have search mechanisms you just sort of have this really , really long document , I mean whenever I 've had a really , really long document that it was sitting on the web , I 've always ended up printing it out . I mean , so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean , you {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're not necessarily gonna be sitting at the desk all the time , you wanna figure you have a train ride , and there 's all these situations where {disfmarker} where I {disfmarker} I mean , this is how I was imagining it , anyway . And then I figured , that out of that group , there would be a subset who would go \" hmm you know I 'm really not sure about this section here , \" and then that group would need it {disfmarker} S It seems like i if I 'm right in that , it seems like you 're setting it up for the most infrequent case , rather than for the most frequent case . So that uh , now we have to worry about privacy ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , no fre for the most {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "we have to worry about all these passwords , for different people", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "For the most frequent case they just say {pause} \" it 's OK \" and then they 're done . And I think {pause} almost everyone would rather do that by email than any other method .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The other thing too is it seems like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um , yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Go ahead .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean , cuz you don't have to visit the web page if you don't want to .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I guess {disfmarker} Yeah , I guess we don't need their signature . I guess an email OK is alright .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh that was another thing I {disfmarker} I had assumed that we didn't need their signature , that it {disfmarker} that an email approval was sufficient . But {pause} I don't actually know .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are {disfmarker} are people going to be allowed to bleep out sections of a meeting where they weren't speaking ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yes . If someone feels strongly enough about it , then I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think they should be allowed to do that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I also {disfmarker} mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So that means other people are editing what you say ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Uh {pause} I don't know about that .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know if I like that .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well , the only other choice is that the person would say \" no , don't distribute this meeting at all \" , and I would rather they were able to edit out other people then just say \" don't distribute it at all \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But th what they signed in the consent form , was something that said you can use my voice .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , but if {disfmarker} if someone is having a conversation , and you only bleep out one side of it , that 's not sufficient .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ? Yeah . Yeah , but that 's our decision then . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , I don't think so . I mean , because if I object to the conversation .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I think it is .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "If I say \" we were having a conversation , and I consider that conversation private , \" and I consider that your side of it is enough for other people to infer , I wanna be able to bleep out your side .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} I agree that the consent forms were {disfmarker} uh , I cons agree with what Adam 's saying , that {vocalsound} um , the consent form did leave open this possibility that they could edit things which they found offensive whe whether they said them or didn't say them .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I see . OK , well , if that 's what it said .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And the other thing is from the standpoint of the l of the l I 'm not a law lawyer , but it strikes me that {vocalsound} uh , we wouldn't want someone to say \" oh yes , I was a little concerned about it but {vocalsound} it was too hard to access \" . So I think it 's kind of nice to have this facility to listen to it . Now {disfmarker} in terms of like editing it by hand , I mean I think it 's {disfmarker} i some people would find that easier to specify the bleep part by having a document they edited . But {disfmarker} but it seems to me that sometimes um , you know i if a person had a bad day , and they had a tone in their voice that they didn't really like , you know it 's nice {disfmarker} it 's nice to be able to listen to it and be sure that that was OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean I can certainly provide a printable version if people want it . Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um {pause} I mean it 's also a mixture of people , I mean some people are r do their work primarily by sitting at the computer , flipping around the web , and others do not .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Others would consider it {disfmarker} this uh {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a set of skills that they would have to gain . You know ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I think most of the people in the meetings are the former .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It depends on what meetings .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "So far .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "In the meetings so far , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But we 're trying to expand this , right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I actually think that paper is the more universal thing .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And that {disfmarker} Well , but if they want to print it out that 's alright .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I think everyone in the meeting can access the web .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I think we have to be able to print it out . It 's not just if they want to print it out . I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK , so does that mean that I can't use email ? Or what ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz you could send it through email you 're thinking .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I th", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , I don't think I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "well {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} there was this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "well I don't think we can send the text through email because of the privacy issues .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good . For security ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um . So giving them , you think a web site to say , \" if you wanna print it out here it is \" , is not sufficient ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Good point . ", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah . I", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Certainly for everybody who 's been in the meetings so far it would be sufficient .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I 'm just thinking for people that that 's not sufficient for , what {disfmarker} the only sufficient thing would be for me to walk up to them and hand it to them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I 'm just wondering about {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You could mail it to them .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Get an a mailing address .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Equivalent .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I think it 's easier to drop in the box .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Just put the button on {disfmarker} on the web page which say \" please send me the {disfmarker} the scripts \" .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "That 's right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh that 's interesting .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What um {disfmarker} When you display it on the web page , what are {disfmarker} what are you showing them ? Utterances , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so can they bleep within an utterance ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "No . Whole utterances only .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Whole utterances .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And that was just convenience for my sake , that it 's uh , uh it would end up being fairly difficult to edit the transcripts if we would do it at the sub - utterance level . Because this way I can just delete an entire line out of a transcript file rather than have to do it by hand .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's another aspect to this which maybe {disfmarker} is part of why this is bothering me . Um , I think you 're really trying very hard to make this as convenient as possible for people to do this .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I mean that 's why I did the web form , because for me that would be my most convenient .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I understand .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I know where you 're going .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I think that 's the bad idea .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "See because you 're gon you 're {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Really . You 're gonna end up with all these little patchy things , whereas really what we want to do is have the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the bias towards letting it go . Because nob you know it {disfmarker} There was a {disfmarker} one or twi once or twice , in the re in the meetings we 've heard , where somebody said something that they might be embarrassed by , but overall people are talking about technical topics . Nobody 's gonna get hurt . Nobody 's being l libeled . You know , this is {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're covering {disfmarker} We 're playing the lawyer 's game , and we 're playing we 're {disfmarker} we 're {disfmarker} we 're looking for the extreme case . If we really orient it towards that extreme case , make it really easy , we 're gonna end up encouraging a headache . That {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} I 'm sort of psyching myself out here , I {disfmarker} I 'm trying to {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I guess I don't see having a few phrases here and there in a meeting being that mu much of a headache , bleeped out .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I {disfmarker} I think that 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I think what Morgan 's saying is the easier it is , the more is gonna be bleeped .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "but i And {disfmarker} and it really depends on what kind of research you 're doing . I think some researchers who are gonna be working with this corpus years from now are really gonna be cursing the fact that there 's a bunch of stuff in there {comment} that 's missing from the dialogue .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know , it depends on the kind of research they 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but it might be , uh {pause} it might be really a {disfmarker} a pain . And , you know where it 's really gonna hurt somebody , in some way {disfmarker} the one who said it or someone who is being spoken about , {comment} we definitely want to allow the option of it being bleeped out . But I really think we wanna make it the rare incidence . And {disfmarker} and uh , I am just a little worried about making it so easy for people to do , and so much fun ! {vocalsound} that they 're gonna go through and bleep out stuff .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So much fun .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "and they can bleep out stuff they don't like too , right from somebody else , as you say , you know , so \" well I didn't like what he said . \"", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I don't see any way of avoiding that . I mean , we have to provi we have promised that we would provide them the transcript and that they can remove parts that they don't like . So that the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . No , no , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The only question is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You - you 've talked me into that , but I {disfmarker} I just think that we should make it harder to do .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "The problem is if it 's harder for them it 's also harder for me . Whereas this web interface , I just get email , it 's all formatted , it 's all ready to go and I can just insert it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So maybe you don't give them access to the web interface unless they really need it . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well I guess {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} So maybe this is a s a way out of it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "You 've provided something that 's useful for you to do {disfmarker} handle , and useful for someone else if they need it . But I think the issue of privacy and ease and so forth should be that uh , they get access to this if they really need it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So you 're saying the {disfmarker} the sequence would be more like first Adam goes to the contact lists , contacts them via whatever their preferred method is , to see if they want to review the meeting .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And then if they don't , you 're done . If they do , then he provides them access to the {disfmarker} the web site .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Well , to some extent I have to do that anyway because as I said we have to distribute passwords .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "W w", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} a printed - out form .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "There 's {disfmarker} there {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "y but you don't necessarily have to distribute passwords is what I 'm saying .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Only if they want it .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "what I 'm saying is that I can't just email them the password because that 's not secure . So they have to call me and ask .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , no , no . But you aren't necessarily giving them {disfmarker} Right . But {disfmarker} we don't even necessarily need to end up distributing passwords at all .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , we do because of privacy . We can't just make it openly available on the web .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , no . You 're missing the point .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "We 're {disfmarker} We 're trying i We 're trying to make it less of an obvious just l l l l uh fall off a log , to do this .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Not everyone gets a password , unless they ask for it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right ? So th so what I would see , is that first you contact them and ask them if they would like to review it for to check for the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "not just for fun , OK ? but to {disfmarker} to check this for uh things that they 're worried about having said or if they 're willing to just send an approval of it , at {disfmarker} from their memory . Um {disfmarker} and , uh , and we should think carefully actually we should review {disfmarker} go through how that 's worded , OK ? Then , if someone uh {disfmarker} wants to review it , uh , and I know you don't like this , but I 'm offering this as a suggestion , is that {disfmarker} is that we then give them a print out . And then if they say that \" I have a potential problem with these things , \" then , you {disfmarker} you say \" OK well you might wanna hear this in context to s think if you need that , \" you issue them a password , i in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But the {disfmarker} the problem with what you 're suggesting is it 's not just inconvenient for them , it 's inconvenient for me . Because that means multiple contacts every time {disfmarker} for every single meeting every time anyone wants anything . I would much prefer to have all be automatic , they visit the web site if they want to . Obviously they don't have to .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I know you 'd prefer it , but the proble", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "we have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So I think you 're thinking people are going to arbitrarily start bleeping and I just don't think that 's gonna happen .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "there 's a problem with it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I 'm also concerned about the spirit of the {disfmarker} of the informed consent thing . Cuz I think if they feel that uh , it 's {disfmarker} I th I th You know , if it turns out that something gets published in this corpus that someone really should have eliminated and didn't detect , then it could have been because of their own negligence that they didn't pursue that next level and get the password and do that , um , but {disfmarker} but they might be able to argue \" oh well it was cumbersome , and I was busy and it was gonna take me too much time to trace it down \" . So it could that the burden would come back onto us . So I 'm a little bit worried about uh , making it harder for them , from the legal standpoint .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well you can go too far in that direction , and you need to find somewhere between I think ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "It seems to me that sending them email , saying \" if you have an O - OK reply to this email and say OK ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "because {disfmarker} Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "If you have a problem with it contact me and I 'll give you a password \" , seems like is a perfectly , reasonable compromise . And if they want a printout they can print it out themselves .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or we could print it up for them ,", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean we could offer that {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but there 's uh , another aspect to that and that is that in the informed consent form , um , my impression is that they {disfmarker} that we offered them at the very least that they definitely would have access to the transcript . And {disfmarker} and I ha", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know that there 's a chance of really skipping that stage . I mean I {disfmarker} I thought that you were {disfmarker} Maybe I misinterpreted what you said but it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Having access to it doesn't necessarily mean , that {disfmarker} having it", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Having it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Giving it to them .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well the in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ? It just means they have the right to have it .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "the consent form is right in there if anyone wants to look at it ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright . Fine . OK . Fair enough .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "D you want me to grab one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sh - sh well I could {disfmarker} I 'm closer .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , but you 're wired", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I could {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "aren't you ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . That is true .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um . {vocalsound} Yeah , I mean I don't wanna fool them ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I just meant that e every {disfmarker} ev any time you say anything to anyone there is in fact a {disfmarker} a bias that is presented ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah yeah {disfmarker} oh I know .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "\" If you agree to participate you 'll have the opportunity to have anything ex anything excised , which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "of {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's true . Yeah .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "\" Once a transcript is available we will ask your permission to include the data in the corpus for the r larger research community .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "There again you will be allowed to indicate any sections that you 'd prefer to have excised from the database , and they will m be removed both from the transcript and the recording . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm . Well that 's more open than I realized .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well , I mean it {disfmarker} The one question is definitely clear with anything as opposed to just what you said .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh no that {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} tha", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Tha - that 's true . That 's more severe , but the next one says the transcript will be around .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "that 's right .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And it doesn't {comment} really say we 'll send it to you , or wi it 'll be available for you on the web , or anything .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I think it probably leaves it open how we get it to them .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "I I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "At least it more often . Yeah . It means also we don't have to g To give it to them . I mean like {disfmarker} like Morgan was saying they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "They just have to make sure that it is available to them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's available to them if they ask for it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , so . wh um {disfmarker} I think I have an idea that may be sat may satisfy both you and me in this which is , um , it 's a {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} we just go over carefully how these notes to people are worded . So I {disfmarker} I just want it to be worded in such a way where it gives the strong impre it gives very , I mean nothing hidden , v very strongly the bias that we would really like to use all of these data .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} that we really would rather it wasn't a patchwork of things tossed out ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "that it would be better for , um , our , uh , field if that is the case . But if you really think something is gonna {disfmarker} And I don't think there 's anything in the legal aspects that {disfmarker} that is hurt by our expressing that bias .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Great . Great , great .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} then my concern about {disfmarker} which {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I agree .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "you know you might be right , it may be it was just paranoia on my part , uh but people just {disfmarker} See I 'm @ @ worried about this interface so much fun {vocalsound} that people start bleeping stuff out {comment} {vocalsound} just as {disfmarker} just because they can .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It 's just a check box next to the text , it 's not any fun at all .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well I don't know . I kind of had fun when you played me something that was bleeped out . You know .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well , but they won't get that feedback .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "All {disfmarker} no because it doesn't automatically bleep it at the time .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh they won't ?", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It just sends me {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh good . So you haven't made it so much fun .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh good .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It just sends me the time intervals .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And then at some point I 'll incorporate them all and put bleeps . I mean I don't wanna have t ha do that yet until we actually release the data", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "because um , then we have to have two copies of every meeting and we 're already short on disk space .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I wanna {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} just keep the times until we actually wanna release the data and then we bleep it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Alright , so I think {disfmarker} Yeah so if we have if {disfmarker} i Again let 's you know , sort of circulate the {disfmarker} the wording on each of these things and get it right ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Well since you seem to feel heart uh , strongest about it , would you like to do the first pass ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} OK . Uh , fair enough . Turn about is fair play ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Al - Also it ther there is this other question , the legal question that {disfmarker} that Adam 's raised , uh about whether we need a concrete signature , or email c i suffices or whatever", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Sorry .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and I don't know how that works . i There 's something down there about \" if you agree to {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I thought {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I thought about it with one of my background processes", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't think so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and I {disfmarker} uh it 's {disfmarker} uh it 's uh , it 's fine to do the email .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Ah . Fine .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah because thi th they 're signing here that they 're agreeing to the paragraph which says \" you 'll be given an opportunity . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Good . OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And so I don't think they need another signature .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Well and furthermore I {disfmarker} it 's now fairly routine in a lot of arrangements that I do with people on contracts and so forth that {disfmarker} that uh if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's that sort of thing where you 're you 're saying uh \" OK I agree , we want eighty hours of this person at such - and - such amount , and I agree that 's OK , \" uh if it 's a follow up to some other agreement where there was a signature it 's often done in email now", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so it 's {disfmarker} it 's OK .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So I guess I probably should at the minimum , think about how to present it in a printed form . I 'm not really sure what 's best with that . The problem is a lot of them are really short ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "and so I don't necessarily wanna do one per line . But I don't know how else to do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well I s I also have this {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice you have it uh , viewab her {comment} hearable on the {disfmarker} on the web for those who might wonder about um , the non nonverbal side , I mean I {disfmarker} I agree that our bias should be as {disfmarker} as expressed here , and {disfmarker} but I {disfmarker} I think it 's nice that a person could check . Cuz sometimes you know you {disfmarker} the words on a {disfmarker} on the page , come out soun sounding different in terms of the {pause} social dynamics if they hear it .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "And I realize we shouldn't emphasize that people {comment} you know , shouldn't borrow trouble . What it comes down to but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah I think actually {disfmarker} my opinion probably is that the only time someone will need to listen to it is if the transcript is uh not good . You know , if {disfmarker} if there are lots of mumbles and parentheses and things like that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , you know , or what if there was an error in the transcript that didn't get detected and there was a whole uh {disfmarker} i segment a against some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} personal {vocalsound} i th", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Right . That was all mumbled ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think Microsoft is", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah exactly", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Sorry transcribers .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or even {disfmarker} {vocalsound} or even {comment} there was a {disfmarker} a line you know about how \" hmm - mmm - mmm {comment} Bill Gates duh - duh - duh - duh . \"", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but it was all {disfmarker} the words were all visible , but they didn't end up i some there was a slip in the transcript .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Oh , God .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "They 're gonna hate this meeting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's true .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Actually Liz will like it . You know , but .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Liz will like it . We had a pretty strong disagreement going there .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yep , yep , that 's right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So I don't know . I mean , I {disfmarker} I guess we 're assuming that the transcript is a close enough approximation and that {disfmarker} that my double checking will be {pause} so close to absolutely perfect that it {disfmarker} that nothing will slip by .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} some something might sometime , and they {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if it 's something that they said , they might {disfmarker} i i I mean , you might be very accurate in putting down what they actually said ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "but , when they hear it , themselves , they may hear something different because they know what they meant .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I don't know how to notate that .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Sarcasm ,", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's right .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "how do you {disfmarker} how do you indicate sarcasm ?", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Yeah that 's right .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "No , I 'm serious . So {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} i the {disfmarker} so we might {disfmarker} we might get some feedback from people that such - and - such was , you know , not {disfmarker} not really what I said .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well that would be good to get , definitely .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , but , Yeah , sure .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Just for corrections .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So um , in terms of password distribution , I think phone is really the only way to do it , phone and in person . Or mail , physical mail .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or if for leave it on their voice mail .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Any sub - word level thing . ", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Any sub - wor Yeah , OK . I mean you could do it with PGP or things like that but it 's too complex .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know I just realized something , which is of {disfmarker} e th this question about the {disfmarker} uh the possible mismatch of {disfmarker} I mean i well , and actually also the lawyer saying that um , we shouldn't really have them {disfmarker} have the people believing that they will be cleared by our checks . You know ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I mean . So it 's like i in a way it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to have the responsibility still on them to listen to the tape and {disfmarker} and hear the transcript , to have that be the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Well yeah , but you can't dep I mean , most people will not wanna take the time to do that , though .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , fair enough . And they 're s they 're absorbing the responsibility themselves .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "And they {disfmarker} they have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "So it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not um {disfmarker} Yeah , good .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "But I mean if you were at a meeting , and {disfmarker} and you {disfmarker} you don't think , at least , that you said anything funny and the meeting was about , you know , some {disfmarker} some funny thing about semantics or something , or uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "You probably won't listen to it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "It is true that tec that the content is technical , I {disfmarker} and so i and we 're not having these discussions which {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I mean , when I listen to these things , I don't find things that are questionable , in other people 's speech or in my own .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Yeah . You would think it would be rare ,", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} It should be very rare .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "I mean we 're not talking about the energy crisis or something , people have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "How about them energy crises .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . I think we 're uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Done ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Kind of done . Actually , I was gonna {disfmarker} Di - Did you have anything n that 's going on , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Not really . No . Um , {vocalsound} my project is going along but um , I 'm really just here to um fill the project uh {disfmarker} the overall progress . I don't really have anything specific to {disfmarker} to talk about .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's fine . I just didn't wanna go by you , if you had something .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You don't have anything to say .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Nah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": " ", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Transcribers , he was rattling the b marbles in his brain back and forth just then this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Shall we do digits ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "Um , oh by the way I did find a bunch {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It um", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh , we should count out how many more digits to forms do we have back there ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There were quite a few . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "That 's what I thought . I f I was going through them all and I found actually a lot filed in with them , that were blanks , that no one had actually read .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And so we still have more than I thought we did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh good .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "So , we have a few more digits before we 're done .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You know having this headset reminds me of like working at Burger King or something .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , did you do that ?", "speaker": "Postdoc F" }, { "content": "Burger King", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I 'd like a burger with that ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No I never did .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "do you want fries with that ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Professor E" }, { "content": "But I feel like I could now .", "speaker": "PhD B" }, { "content": "And {pause}", "speaker": "Grad C" } ]

[ { "content": "Alright , so I 'm - I should read all of these numbers ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Piece of paper ? I could borrow ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so uh i um I don't know whether Ami 's coming or not um but I think we oughta just get started .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Nancy is uh currently in Berkeley but not here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Nancy 's still stick ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Don't know . Anyway", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , so there you go . Anyway , so my idea f for today and we can uh decide that that isn't the right thing to do was to at {disfmarker} spend at least part of the time trying to eh build the influence links , you know which sets of things are uh relevant to which decisions and actually I had uh specific s suggestion to start first with the path ones . The database ones being in some sense less interesting to us although probably have to be done and so to do that so there 's {disfmarker} and the idea was we were gonna do two things", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is your mike on ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ah . Oh right , well . Yeah . We were gonna do two things one of which is just lay out the influence structure of what we think influences what", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's funny .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and then as a uh separate but related task uh particularly Bhaskara and I were going to try to decide what kinds of belief nodes are needed in order to um do what we {disfmarker} what we need to do . Once so but du we should sort of have all of the uh basic design of what influences what done before we decide exactly how to compute it . So I didn't {disfmarker} did you get a chance to look at all {disfmarker} yet ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I looked at some of that stuff .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Great . OK so let 's start with the uh belief - nets , the general influence stuff and then we 'll {disfmarker} then we 'll also at some point break and talk about the techy stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I think one could go there 's I think we can di discuss everything . First of all this I added , I knew from sort of basically this has to be there right ? Um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh are you gonna go there or not ? Yeah , so one i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Given {disfmarker} given uh uh not transverse the castle , the decision is does the person want to go there or is it just", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right , true . Does have to be there . And I 'm sure we 'll find more as we go that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And Hmm ? So Go - there in the first place or not is definitely uh one of the basic ones . We can start with that . Interesting effect . Um Is this basically true or false or maybe we 'll get", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Which one ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "what ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "\" Go there \" .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "m right .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "so there is this question about", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Here we we actually get just probabilities ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "right for each down here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "When we 're {disfmarker} yeah when we 're done . So {disfmarker} so", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the reason it might not be true or false is that we did have this idea of when so it 's , you know uh current @ @ and so forth and so on or not at all ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "right ? And so that a decision would be do we want that so you could {disfmarker} two different things you could do , you could have all those values for Go - there or you could have Go - there be binary and given that you 're going there when .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "When . How .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Why ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So I 'll let", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "we 'll see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I mean it seems that you could um uh it seems that those things would be logically independent like you would wanna have them separate or binary , Go - there and then the {disfmarker} the possibilities of how to go there because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , that 's {disfmarker} let 's start that way .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because , you know it might be easy to figure out that this person is going to need more film eventually from their utterance but it 's much more complex to query when would be the most appropriate time .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Hmm . OK . And so I 've tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user ? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model - A . We should be be clear . But when it comes to sort of writing down when you {disfmarker} when you do these things is it here ? You sort of have to a write the values this can take .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And here I was really uh in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because um {disfmarker} this case it 's pretty simple , but as we will see the other ones um for example if it 's a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "How can I write here that this is something , a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK . Thus is understandable ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Think so .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So here for example .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "You 've s have you seen this before at all Keith , these belief - net things ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no , but I think I 'm following it . So far .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So here is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we had that the user 's budget may influence the outcome of decisions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK , h well I mean how is it different from user finance ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um the finance is sort of here thought of as {disfmarker} as the financial policy a person carries out in his life , he {disfmarker} is he cheap , average , or spendy ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um I didn't come uh maybe a user I don't know , I didn't want to write greediness , but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or cheapness .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Welcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "User thrift .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Welcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Thrift , that 's good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "There it is .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So Keith w what 's behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief - nets for you and stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So this is not just a display , this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we 'll wind up with a functioning belief - net at the other end .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And it 's so simple even I can use it .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Wow , that is simple .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so here was OK , I can think of uh people being cheap , average , or spendy or we can even have a {disfmarker} a finer scale moderately cheap ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Doesn't matter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "doesn't matter . Agree there but here um I wasn't sure what to write in .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Let 's {disfmarker} go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , I mean you 've written in {disfmarker} you 've written in what uh seems to be required like what else is {disfmarker} is do you want ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If that 's permissible then I 'm happy .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well yeah . So here 's {disfmarker} here 's what 's permissible is that you can arrange so that the um the value of that is gonna have to be updated and n it 's not a belief update , right ? It 's {disfmarker} you took some actions , you spent money and stuff , so the update of that is gonna have to be essentially external to the belief - net . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And then what you 're going to need is uh for the things that it influences . Well let 's {disfmarker} first of all let 's see if it does influence anything . And if it does influence anything then you 're gonna need something that converts from the {disfmarker} the number here to something that 's relevant to the decision there . So it could be ra they create different ranges that are relevant for different decisions or whatever {disfmarker} but for the moment this is just a node that is conditioned externally and might influence various things .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yeah {disfmarker} this is where um OK anyways let 's forget it .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well that 's fine . Well anyway , go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , and so this , oh that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "The other thing is that um every time that 's updated beliefs will have to be propagated but then the question is do you {disfmarker} do we wanna propagate beliefs every single time it 's updated or only when we need to ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's a good question . And uh does it have a lazy mode ? I don't remember .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh Well , I mean , in Srini 's thing there was this thing {disfmarker} there was this um option like proper inferences which suggests that uh doesn't happen , automatically .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh right . Yeah . S probably does . Yeah someone has to track that down , but I {disfmarker} but uh And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I think {disfmarker} actually uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I just accidentally Oops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "one of the we w items for the uh user home base uh should be uh essentially non - local . I they 're only there for the day and they don't have a place that they 're staying .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh just uh accidentally erased this , I {disfmarker} I just had values here such as uh um is he s we had in our list we had \" Is he staying in our hotel ? \" , \" Is he staying with friends ? \" , and so forth", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh so we 're OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So it 's clear where w w w where we are right now . So my suggestion is we just pick uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Something down here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "one , you know one uh particular one of the uh well let 's do the first {disfmarker} first one let 's do the one that we sort of already think we did so w that was the {disfmarker} of the endpoint ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . And um Oops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is hmm", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ah ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So it 's true or false ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . No no no , EVA .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Missed that one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What 's the difference between mode and endpoint ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I thought mode , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "although that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um mode was um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , that 's", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mode of transportation ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK . Also true or false .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No , he has he hasn't filled them in yet , is what 's true .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Did I or didn't I ? Ah . Probably nothing done yet , oh I just did it on the upper ones , OK . Makes sense . OK , so this was EVA . Maybe we can think of more things , cross", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Climb , rob .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "climb , emerge", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No no no , these are ju that 's just a point ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well some of those are subsumed by approach .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "this is ju", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Would it be an endpoint if you were crossing over it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The Charles Bridge , you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , would be a f for a given segment . You know , you {disfmarker} y you go {disfmarker} first go the town square", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I eh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I mean , if you go to re you know if you go to Prague or whatever one of your {disfmarker} your key points that you have to do is cross the Charles Bridge and doesn't really matter which way you cross which {disfmarker} where you end up at the end but the part {disfmarker} the good part is walking over it , so .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's subtle , but true . Anyway so let 's just leave it three {disfmarker} with three for now", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm , mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and let 's see if we can get it linked up just to get ourselves started .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , we", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "You 'll see it {disfmarker} you 'll see something comes up immediately , that the reason I wanna do this .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "w well the uh user was uh definitely more likely to enter if he 's a local", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "more likely to view if he 's a tourist um and then of course we had the fact that given the fact that he 's thrifty and there will be admission then we get all these cross um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "We did , but the three things w that {disfmarker} that it contributed to this in fact , the other two aren't up there . so one was the ontology", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We 'll d what type of building is it ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the third thing we talked about was something from the discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What he has mentioned before .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , so this is w Right , so what w I {disfmarker} what we seem to need here , this is why it starts getting into the technical stuff", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "the way we had been designing this , there were three intermediate nodes uh which were the endpoint decision as seen from the uh user model as seen from the ontology and as seen from the discourse . So each of those the way we had it designed , now we can change the design , but the design we had was there was a decision with the same three outcomes uh based on the th those three separate considerations", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so if we wanted to do that would have to put in uh three intermediate nodes", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh we can load it up it you know very simple .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and then what you and I have to talk about is , OK if we 're doing that and they get combined somehow uh how do they get combined ? But the {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're undoubtedly gonna be more things to worry about .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So this was adjusted for this one mode thing .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So that 's w w in our uh in {disfmarker} in Johno 's sort of pictogram everything that could contribute to whether a person wants to enter , view , or approach something .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , it was called mode , so this {disfmarker} this is m mode here means the same as endpoint .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is now this endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , why don't we ch can we change that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We can just rename that , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright . You know , but that was actually , yeah unfortunately that was a um kind of an intermediate versio that 's I don't think what we would currently do .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Can I ask about \" slurred \" and \" angry \" as inputs to this ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} why ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Like they 're either true or false", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The prosody ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and they uh oh I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If the {disfmarker} if the person talking is angry or slurs their speech they might be tired or , you know", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Drunk .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Therefore", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And , you know , possibly uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Less likely to enter .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "some ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "uh I was thinking less likely to view", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But that 's - that seems to , yeah . So {disfmarker} so my advice to do is {disfmarker} is get this down to what we think is actually likely to {disfmarker} to be a {disfmarker} a strong influence .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But yeah , that was what he had in mind .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So let 's think about this {disfmarker} this question of how do we wanna handle {disfmarker} so there 're two separate things . One is {disfmarker} uh at least two . One is how do we want to handle the notion of the ontology now what we talked about , and this is another technical thing Bhaskara , is uh can we arrange so that I think we can so that the belief - net itself has properties and the properties are filled in uh from on ontology items . So the {disfmarker} let 's take the case of the uh this endpoint thing , the notion was that if you had a few key properties like is this a tourist site , you know some kind of landmark is it a place of business uh is it something you physically could enter", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , et cetera . So that there 'd be certain properties that would fit into the decision node and then again as part of the ou outer controlling conditioning of this thing those would be set , so that some somehow someone would find this word , look it up in the ontology , pull out these properties , put it into the belief - net , and then the decision would flow .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Now", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Seems to me that we 've sort of e em embedded a lot , em embedded a lot of these uh things we had in there previously in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some of the other final decisions done here , for example if we would know that this thing is exhibiting something um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it 's exhibiting itself it is a landmark ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "meaning more likely to be viewed", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it is exhibiting pictures or sculptures and stuff like this , then it 's more likely to be entered .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I uh that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's completely right and um I think that 's good , right ? So what {disfmarker} what that says is that we might be able to uh take and in particular so {disfmarker} so the ones we talked about were uh exhibiting and selling", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Accessibility .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "no , accessibility meant", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If it 's closed one probably won't enter . Or if it 's not accessible to a tourist ever the likelihood of that person actually wanting to enter it ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "given that he knows it , of course .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright . So let me suggest this . Uh w could you move those up about halfway . Uh The ones that you th And selling I guess .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , all {disfmarker} all of these if it 's fixing things selling things , or servicing things", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . So here {disfmarker} here 's what it looks like to me . is that you want an intermediate structure which i uh is essentially the or of uh for this purpose of {disfmarker} of uh selling , f fixing , or servicing . So that it uh that is , for certain purposes , it becomes important but for this kind of purpose uh one of these places is quite like the other . Does that seem right ? So we di", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Basic you 're basically just merging those for just the sake of endpoint decision ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "if we Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} well it may be more than endpoint decisions , so the idea would be that you might wanna merge those three", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "These three ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Eh ser s uh selling , fixing , and servicing .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What ex um and so either those is true f or false ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh Uh well it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i here 's where it gets a little tricky .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh from the belief - net point of view it is from another point of view of course it 's interest it 's {disfmarker} it 's important to know what it 's selling or servicing and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So for this decision it 's just uh true or false", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and in th this is a case where the or seems just what you want .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} that if any of those things is true then it 's the kind of place that you uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um more likely to enter .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "are more likely to enter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So you just wanna have them all pointing to a summary thing ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You could , yeah . Yeah , so let 's do that . No no , no eh to {disfmarker} to an inter no , an intermediate node .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "T", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "That 's the p part of the idea , is", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um is {disfmarker} is that the object type node ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I d", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So are they the {disfmarker} is it the kind of object that sells , fixes , or services things ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , o open up object type and let 's see what its values are .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh I just created it , it has none so far .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , well OK first of all it 's not objects , we called them entities , right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And then we have sort of the um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Let 's say I put commercial .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I w I was just gonna commercial action inside where people p", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well couldn't I do {disfmarker} let 's do commercial uh landmark and", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And where was the accessible , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well accessible I think is different cuz that 's tempor that {disfmarker} that varies temporally ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "whereas this is a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What would a hotel fall under ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I would call that a service , but {disfmarker} but I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I mean in terms of entity type ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Say w w well it 's co I would s a a again for this purpose I think it 's commercial . Someplace you want to go in to do some kind of business .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um what does the underscore - T at the end of each of those things signify ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um things . So places that service things sell things or fix things and pe places that e exhibit things .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK . OK . That also points to entity type I guess .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So we 're deriving um this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this feature of whether the {disfmarker} the main action at this place happens inside or outside or what we 're deriving that from what kind of activity is done there ? Couldn't you have it as just a primitive feature of the entity ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well you could , that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a choice .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean it seems like that 's much more reliable cuz you could have outdoor places that sell things and you know indoor places that do something else", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , the problem with it is that it sort of putting in a feature just for one decision ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "now w we may wind up having to do that this i anyway , this i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "at a mental level that 's what we we 're gonna have to sort out .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So , you know what does this look like , what are {disfmarker} what are uh intermediate things that are worth computing , what are the features we need in order to make all these decisions", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and what 's the best way to organize this so that um it 's clean and {disfmarker} and consistent and all that sort of stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . I 'm just thinking about how people , human beings who know about places and places to go and so on would store this and it would probably {disfmarker} you wouldn't just sort of remember that they sell stuff and then deduce from that that it must be going on inside or something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I think an entity maybe should be regard as a vector of several possible things , it can either em do s do sell things , fix things , service things , exhibit things , it can be a landmark at the same time as doing these things ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it 's not either or mmm certainly a place can be a hotel and a famous site .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Many come to mind . Things can be generally um a landmark and be accessible . IE a {disfmarker} a castle or can be a landmark a or not accessible , some statue", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know can go inside .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK . Anyway so let me suggest you do something else . Uh which is to get rid {disfmarker} get rid of that l long link between who {disfmarker} the user and the endpoint .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Could we just move it like this ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No no , I don't want the link there at all .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Because what we 're gonna want is an intermediate thing which is uh the endpoint decisi the endpoint decision based o on the user models , so what we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} what we talked about is three separate endpoint decisions , so let 's make a new node", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Just as a suggestion maybe you could \" save as \" to keep your old one nice and clean and so you can mess with this one .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm . The old one was not that not that important , I think but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , well , not a big deal then .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's do it then .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the {disfmarker} Isn't there a \" save as \" inside of java base ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But I can just take this", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "copy it somewhere else . This was user something", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well this was", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh let 's p put it this {disfmarker} let 's do endpoint underbar - U .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "end point ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "i endpoint , e end poi this is sa", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "it 's the endpoint", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Gotcha , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "let 's say underbar - U , so that 's the endpoint decision uh as seen through the", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "As related from the user model .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . So let 's {disfmarker} let 's actually yeah so lin you can link that up to the", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Should I rename this {pause} too ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh yeah , so that , I guess that 's endpoint uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": " It 's underscore - E .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "underscore - E for entity , and we may change all this , but . Right . And", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , shouldn't I be able to move them all ? No . Or {disfmarker} ? Can I ? Where ? What ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh I d eh I don't know . Actually , I guess the easiest thing would move {disfmarker} mo move the endpoint , well , go ahead . Just do whatever .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Wasn't this possible ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I think you have to be in move mode before", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Good . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So now we 're looking for user related things that um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . And uh maybe th maybe it 's just one who is the user , I don't know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe there 's more .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well if he 's usi if he 's in a car right now what was that people with Harry drove the car into the cafe", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Never mind . Uh anyway , this is crude . Now but the {disfmarker} now so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but then the question is uh so {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and we assume that some of these properties would come indirectly through an ontology , but then we had this third idea of input from the discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} should we finish this ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean but surely the user interests", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The user thrift , the user budget .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , maybe , I again , I d well , OK , put em in but what we 're gonna wanna do is actually uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Here this was one of my problems we have the user interest is a {disfmarker} is a vector of five hundred values , so um That 's from the user model ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh you mean level of interest ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "mm - hmm , no not levels of interest but things you can be interested in .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "somebody else has built this user model .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh I see ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Gothic churches versus Baroque townhouses versus", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "right . So why is it oh it , so it 's like a vector of five hundred one 's or zero 's ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yea - n is that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Like for each thing are we {disfmarker} are you interested in it or not ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yeah uh I {disfmarker} I think", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So uh you cou and so here let me give you two ways to handle that . Alright ? One is um you could ignore it . But the other thing you could do is have an {disfmarker} and this will give you the flavor of the {disfmarker} of what you could have a node that 's {disfmarker} that was a measure of the match between the object 's feature , you know , the match between the object the entity , I 'm sorry and the user .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So you could have a k a \" fit \" node and again that would have to be computed by someone else", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but uh so that uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just as a mental note uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's all .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} and should we say that this interests eh affects the likelihood of {disfmarker} of entering ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , we could .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And also if it 's an expensive place to enter , this may also", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Budget .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "User schedule . \" Do I have time to go in and climb all the way to the top of the Koelner Dome {comment} or do I just have to {disfmarker} \" \" time to take a picture of the outside ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Schedule ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It seems like everything in a user model a affects {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well that 's what we don't wanna do , see that {disfmarker} se cuz then we get into huge combinatorics and stuff like that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "an", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Cuz if the , I mean , and if the user is tired , the user state ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right , it would affect stuff , but I can't see why e anything w everything in the model wouldn't be", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} we can't do that , so we we 're gonna have to", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but this is a good discussion , we 're gonna have to somehow figure out uh some way to encapsulate that uh so if there 's some general notion of for example the uh relation to the time to do this to the amount of time the guy has or something like that is {disfmarker} is the uh compatibility with his current state , so that 's what you 'd have to do , you 'd have to get it down to something which uh was itself relatively compact , so it could be compatibility with his current state which would include his money and his time and {disfmarker} and his energy", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , just seems like it 'd push the problem back a level .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It does .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No but , it 's more than that , like the {disfmarker} the more sort of you break it up like because if you have everything pointing to one node it 's like exponential whereas if you like keep breaking it up more and more it 's not exponential anymore .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So it yeah , there are two advantages . That 's tha there 's one technical one", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Sh - sh yeah , {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and the other is it {disfmarker} it gets used", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "S so we 'd basically be doing subgrouping ? Subgrouping , basically into mo", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so basically make it more tree like going backwards ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . But it {disfmarker} there 's two advantages , one is the technical one that you don't wind up with such big exponential uh CBT 's ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Bhaskara ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "the other is it can be {disfmarker} it presumably can be used for multiple decisions .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So that if you have this idea of the compatibility with the requirements of an action to the state of the user one could well imagine that that was u", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "not only is it sim is it cleaner to compute it separately but it could be that it 's used in multiple places . Anyway th so in general this is the design , this is really design problem .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , you 've got a signal , a d set of decisions um how do we do this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What do I have under user state anyhow cuz I named that already something . Oh that 's tired , fresh , yeah . Maybe should be renamed into physical state .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Or fat user fatigue even .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's with a \" G \" ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": " Whatever .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Then we can make a user state .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What 's th what we 're talking about is compatibility . Uh or something , I don't know , but .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess the {disfmarker} the question uh is It 's hard for me to imagine how everything wouldn't just contribute to user state again . Or user compatibility .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh but the thing is that we uh uh we had some things that uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That don't .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "that don't", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The user interests and the user who {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who the user is are completely apart from the fact whether he is tired broke", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure , but other {disfmarker} I thought though the node we 're creating right now is user compatibility to the current action , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "the right", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Seems like everything in the user model would contribute to whether or not the user was compatible with something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh maybe not . I mean the {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} the issue is um would Even if it was true in some abstract general sense it might not be true in terms of the information we actually had and can make use of . And anyway we 're gonna have to find some way to cl uh get this sufficiently simple to make it feasible .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Maybe um if we look at the {disfmarker} if we split it up again into sort of um if we look at the uh the endpoint again we {disfmarker} we said that for each of these things there are certain preconditions so you can only enter a place if you are not too tired to do so and also eh have the money to do so if it costs something so if you can afford it and perform it is preconditions . Viewing usually is cheap or free .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is that always true ? I don't know .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , with the way we 're defining it I think yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "W w but that eh viewing it without ent yeah view w with our definition of view it 's free cuz you", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And so is approaching .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well what about the Grand Canyon , right ? No , never mind . I mean are there {disfmarker} are there large things that you would have to pay to get up close to like , I mean never mind , not in the current {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No we have to enter the park .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Eh almost by definition um paying involves entering ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "ge going through some", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Right , sure .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Uh So let me suggest we switch to another one , I mean clearly there 's more work to be done on this", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but I think it 's gonna be more instructive to {disfmarker} to think about uh other decisions that we need to make in path land . And what they 're gonna look like .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So you can save this one as and open up the old one , right and {disfmarker} and then everything would be clean . You could do it again .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why , I think it 's worth saving this one but I think I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to keep this one", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "cuz I wanna see if {disfmarker} if we 're gonna reuse any of this stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um so this might be What next ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well you tell me , so in terms of the uh planner what 's {disfmarker} what 's a good one to do ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} th this go there or not I think is a good one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is a very basic one . So what makes things more likely that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the fir see the first thing is , getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So Keith this is gonna get into your world because uh we 're gonna want to know you know , which constructions indicate various of these properties", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "s and so I {disfmarker} I don't yet know how to do this , I guess we 're gonna wind up pulling out uh discourse properties like we have object properties and we don't know what they are yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that the Go - there decision will have a node from uh discourse , and I guess why don't we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Of {disfmarker} of course .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Identified that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and so again re that 's completely correct , we have the user model , the situation model here , we don't have the discourse model here yet . Much the same way as we didn't {disfmarker} we don't have the ontology here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting , selling , and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Really .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So in some sense it 's {disfmarker} it 's there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But the discourse we don't have it represented at all yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um This be specific for second year ? Um And {disfmarker} and we probably will have uh something like a discourse for endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But if we do it 'll have the three values .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "It 'll have the EVA values if {disfmarker} if we have it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK just for starters and here discourse um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "For Go - there , probably is true and false , let 's say . That 's what we talked about .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um well , I think um we 're looking at the {disfmarker} the little data that we have , so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they wanna go there .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So this should sort of push it in one direction", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And sometimes um people say where is it", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because they wanna know where it is but in most cases they probably", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that doesn't change the fact that you 're {disfmarker} you want these two values .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , true . So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it 's either {pause} yep , yay , A , or nay . Yeah . OK ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And they 'll be a y uh , a user Go - there and maybe that 's all , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Situation Go - there , I mean , because it 's {disfmarker} whether it 's open or not .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That definitely interes", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But that now that kind of um what 's the word", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "um the {disfmarker} that interacts with the uh EVA thing if they just wanna view it then it 's fine to go there when it 's closed whereas if they want to um", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's where it starts getting to be uh uh essentially more interesting , so what uh Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they 're only going to view it then it doesn't matter whether it 's closed or not", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "in terms of uh uh you know , whether {disfmarker} whether you wanna go there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The time of day ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right I {disfmarker} well , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It does matter though if there 's like a strike or riot or something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right . So yeah , that 's what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this {disfmarker} that node by itself wouldn't distinguish", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well i i it can have di various values . Yeah , but we eh you {disfmarker} you 're right it might not be enough .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean , see I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking that any node that begins with \" Go - there \" is either gonna be true or false .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , what {disfmarker} Whoops .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah . I see that could be .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Also , that node , I mean the Go - there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "you know , there 's different things , the strikes and the", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Could be . Yeah . N", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Like situation traffic and so on .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , the time of day .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So {disfmarker} so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that uh there sh should be a link , and this is where things are gonna get very messy from the endpoint uh decision", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess the final", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "maybe the t they 're final re and , I guess the very bottom endpoint decision uh to the Go - there node . And I {disfmarker} don't worry about layout ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean then we 'll go {disfmarker} we 'll go nuts but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Maybe we could um have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go - there S node sort of fed into ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Could be , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right . Because that 's what we , I mean that 's why this situation comes up .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well the Go - there , actually the Endpoint node could feed {disfmarker} feed into the Go - there S That 's right ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so the Endpoint node ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "make that up t t to the Go - there then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and again we 'll have to do layout at some point , but something like that . Now it 's gonna be important not to have loops by the way . Uh really important in {disfmarker} in the belief worl net world not to have loops", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I was just gonna", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "How long does it take you to {disfmarker} to compute uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No it 's much worse than that . It {disfmarker} if i loo it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's not def i it 's not well defined if you 're there are loops ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} things don't converge , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "uh R recursive action ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there isn't uh OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh but this isn't , this is {disfmarker} this line is just coming from over here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , no it 's not a loop yet , I 'm just saying we {disfmarker} we , in no , in", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , but the good thing is we {disfmarker} we could have loopy belief propagation which {vocalsound} we all love .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . OK , so anyway , so that 's another decision . Uh what 's {disfmarker} what 's another decision you like ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , these have no parents yet , but I guess that sort of doesn't matter . Right ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , the idea is that you go there , you go comes from something about the user from something about the situation and the uh the discourse is {disfmarker} is a mystery .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean this is sort of This comes from traffic and so forth , yeah . Sh - Should we just make some", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure , if you want .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um if there 's parking maybe Mmm Oh who cares . OK . And if he has seen it already or not and so forth ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Um and discourse is something that sort of should we make a Keith note here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That sort of comes from Keith .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just sort of so we don't forget . Oops . Have to get used to this . OK , whoops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Um actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And then also the discourse endpoint , I {disfmarker} I guess endpoint sub - D is {disfmarker} if you wanna make it consistent .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Wh - ah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Um actually is this the {disfmarker} the right way to have it where um go there from the user and go there from the situation just sort of don't know about each other but they both feed the go there decision because isn't the , I mean", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think so . S", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh , hmm OK . But that still allows for the possibility of the {disfmarker} of the user model affecting our decision about whether a strike is the sort of thing which is going to keep this user away from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Maybe not , a Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} all that {disfmarker} that kind of decision making happens at the Go - there node .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh y you {disfmarker} yeah you {disfmarker} i you {disfmarker} if you needed to do that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh . If you needed it to do that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But uh OK I was just thinking I guess maybe I 'm conflating that user node with possible {disfmarker} possible asking of the user", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "you know hey there 's a strike on , uh does that affect whether or not you wanna go or something", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah . Good point , I don't {disfmarker} I don't know how we 're going to {disfmarker} t uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or Yeah , so that might not come out of a user model but , you know , directly out of interaction .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Uh I gu yes my curr you know , don't yeah yeah yeah that 's enough .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh My current idea on that would be that each of these decision nodes has questions associated with it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And the question wouldn't itself be one of these conditional things", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know , given that you know there 's a strike do you still wanna go ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But uh if you told him a bunch of stuff , then you would ask him do you wanna go ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I think trying to formulate the conditional question , that sounds too much .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right , right . Yeah . Right , sure , OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "To me .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright , but let me {disfmarker} let {disfmarker} let 's stay with this a minute", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "because I want to do a little bit of organization . Before we get more into details . The organization is going to be that uh the flavor of what 's going on is going to be that uh as we s e sort of going to this detail indeed Keith is going to {disfmarker} to worry about the various constructions that people might use", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and Johno has committed himself to being the parser wizard ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so what 's going to happen is that eventually like by the time he graduates , OK uh they 'll be some sort of system which is able to take the discourse in context and have outputs that can feed the rest of belief - net . I j wa I {disfmarker} I assume everybody knows that , I just wanna you know , get closure that that 'll be the game then ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so the semantics that you 'll get out of the discourse will be of values that go into the various discourse - based decision nodes . And now some of those will get fancier like mode of transportation and stuff so it isn't by any means uh necessarily a simple thing that you want out . So uh if there is an and there is mode of transportation", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And it there 's a sort of also a split if you loo if you blow this up and look at it in more detail there 's something that comes from the discourse in terms of what was actually just said what 's the utterance go giving us", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and then what 's the discourse history give us .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , well that , well , we 'll have to decide uh how much of th where that goes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's uh two things then .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "an and it 's not clear yet . I mean it could be those are two separate things , it could be that the discourse gadget itself integrates em as {disfmarker} which would be my guess that you 'd have to do see in order to do reference and stuff like that um you 've gotta have both the current discourse and the context to say I wanna go back there ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "wow , what does that mean and uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Now . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Alright . So", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But is th is this picture that 's emerging here just my wish that you have noticed already for symmetry or is it that we get for each {disfmarker} each decision on the very bottom we sort of get the sub - E , sub - D , sub - U and maybe a sub - O {disfmarker} \" O \" for \" ontology \" um meta node", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but it might just", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "It could be .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "could be", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is getting into the thing I wanna talk about next ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so this", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "which is s if that 's true uh how do we wanna combine those ? O or when it 's true ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but this eh w wou wou would be nice though that , you know , we only have at most four at the moment um arrows going f to each of the uh bottom decisions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And four you {disfmarker} we can handle .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It 's too much ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well i i it see i if it 's fou if it 's four things and each of them has four values it turns out to be a big CPT , it 's not s completely impossi I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not beyond what the system could solve but it 's probably beyond what we could actually uh write down . or learn .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right , true .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh but , you know it 's four to the fourth . It 's pretty big . Uh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two fifty - six ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "is that what that", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it 's and I don't think it 's gonna g e I don't think it 'll get worse than that by the way , so le that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a good", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but four {disfmarker} didn't we decide that all of these had true or false ? So is {disfmarker} it 's four", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh for go there , but not f but not for {disfmarker} the other one 's three values for endpoint already .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean you need actually three to the five because uh well I mean if {disfmarker} if it has four inputs and then it itself has three values", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so I mean it can get big fast .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um for endpoint ? No it 's {disfmarker} it 's sh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "EV - it 's the EVA .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah , down here , but this one only has two .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No it still has three ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Since ta they will still have three .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "EVA .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Each {disfmarker} so you 're uh uh from each point of view you 're making the same decision .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So from the point of view of the ob of the entity", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Want to view that , yeah yeah . C sl", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker} and also , I mean , the other places where , like for example consider endpoint view , it has inputs coming from user budget , user thrift", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so even", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Those are not necessarily binary . S so we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna have to use some t care in the knowledge engineering to not have this explode . And in fact I think it doesn't in the sense that um Read it , you know actually with the underlying semantics and stuff I think it isn't like you have two hundred and fifty - six different uh ways of {disfmarker} of thinking about whether this user wants to go to some place . Alright . So we {disfmarker} we just have to figure out what the regularities are and and code them . But um What I was gonna suggest next is maybe we wanna work on this a little longer but I do want to also talk about the thing that we started into now of uh well it 's all fine to say all these arrows come into the si same place what rule of combination is used there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So th yes they {disfmarker} so these things all affect it ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "how do they affect it ? And belief - nets have their own beliefs about uh what are good ways to do that . So is it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clearer n clear enough what the issue is ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? So do we wanna switch that now or we wanna do some more of this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "R basically w we just need to sort of in order to get some closure on this figure out how we 're gonna get this picture sort of uh completely messy .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , here {disfmarker} he here 's one of the things that {disfmarker} that I th you sh you {disfmarker} no , I don't know how easy it is to do this in the interface but you {disfmarker} it would be great if you could actually just display at a given time uh all the things that you pick up , you click on \" endpoint \" , OK and everything else fades", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and you just see the links that are relevant to that . And I does anybody remember the GUI on this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh d I would almost say the other way to do that would be to open u or make you know N - many belief - nets and then open them every time you wanted to look at a different one", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "vers cuz uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's probably pretty easy do it {disfmarker} to do it in HTML , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "HTML ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah I have each of these thing each of the end belief - nets be {disfmarker} be a page and then you click on the thing and then li consider that it 's respective ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well the b", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "anyway so uh it clear that even with this if we put in all the arrows nobody is gonna be able to read the diagram .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright , so e we have to figure out some eh eh uh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} let me consi suggest that 's a s not a first - order consideration , we have two first - order considerations which is what are the uh influences A , A , and B how do they get combined mathematically , how do we display them is an issue , but um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I don't , yeah I just don't think this has been designed to support something like that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , it might soon , if this is gonna be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to uh start modifying it for our purposes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , and Um I {disfmarker} that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into , but um we have to know what we want first . OK , so why don't you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what {disfmarker} what the choices might be for these ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So Ah , sorry . I guess that 's", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You can technically wear that as you 're talking .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's right , I guess I can do that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Darn .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Put it in your , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess this board works fine . So um recall the basic problem which is that um you have a belief - net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node . Right ? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it 's so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty - three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down . So what um helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set , right ? These are all like saying EV or A , right ? So it 's not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we wanna just take a combination of {disfmarker} we wanna view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we wanna sort of combine their decisions and create you know , um sorta weighted combination .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm . ROVER , the ROVER decision .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "The what decision ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "ROVER . All of their outputs combined to make a decision .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So the problem is to specify the uh so the conditional property of this given all those , right ? That 's the way belief - nets are defined , like each node given its parents , right ? So um that 's what we want , we want for example P of um let 's call this guy Y and let 's call these X - one , X - two XN , right . So we want probability that Y equals , you know , for example um E given that these guys are I 'll just refer to this as like X um hat or something , uh the co like all of them ? Given that for example the data says you know , A , V , A , E , or something right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So we would like to do this kind of combination .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Alright , so um Is that uh I {disfmarker} yeah , I just wanna make sure everybody is with us before he goes on .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think so , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's cl e is {disfmarker} is it clear what he wants to compute ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . So , right . So Basically um {vocalsound} what we don't wanna do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E , s give a number", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because that 's obviously not desirable . What we wanna do is find some principled way of um saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution , so we want it to um add up to one , right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So those are the two things that we uh need . So what uh I guess , what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we , you know view these guys as voting and we just take the uh we essentially take um averages , right ? So for example here two people have voted for A , one has voted for V , and one has voted for E , so we could say that the probabilities are , you know , probability of being E is one over four , because one person voted for E out of four and similarly , probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is um two out of four and probability of V is one out of four . Right ? So that 's step {disfmarker} that 's the uh yeah that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the basic uh thing . Now", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is that all OK ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And that one outcome , that 's", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "it 's X {disfmarker} X - one voted for A X - two voted for V", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and so forth ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Y right . Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things , which may or may not be a good assumption ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's the outcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So step two is um right . So we 've assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know , some w be that for example , what the um the actual the uh verbal content of what the person said , like what uh what might be uh somehow more uh important than the uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "X - one matters more i than X - two or", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . Sure , so we don't wanna like give them all equal weight so currently we 've been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by uh W - one , W - two , W - three , and W - four", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each um X - hat , we just need that the W 's sum to one . So they can be for example , you know you {disfmarker} you could have point one , point three , point two , and point four , say .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And that 'd be one . So that um also seems to work fine . And uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So I jus just to make sure I understand this , so in this case um we would still compute the average ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You 'd compute the weighted average , so the probability of E would be uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} so it 'd be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be uh {comment} W one times {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Point three .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or A or {disfmarker} let 's see , one full quarter times point one", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Not one quarter ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so these numbers have been replaced with point one , point three , point two , and point four . So you can view these as gone .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Probability of", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK . So , alright . So this is uh step two . So the next possibility is that um we 've given just a single weight to each expert , right , whereas it might be the case that um in certain situations one of the experts is more uh reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable . So the way this is handled is by what 's called a mixture of experts , so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called \" H \" , OK ? This is a hidden variable . And what this is is it gets its input from X - one , X - two , X - three , and X - four , and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation . Right ? And then these guys all come here . OK . So this is sightly uh more complicated . So what 's going on is that um this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these isn't likely to be more reliable or most reliable . So H produces some you know , it produces a number , either one , two , three , or four , in our situation , right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it 's two , and then he just selects the uh thing . That 's all there is to say , I guess about it . Right , so you can have a mixture that", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs . It 's driving how the other four are interpreted . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So H passes a vector on to the next node ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It could .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It could ? A vector of the weights as the se", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it could", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well a vector with three zero 's and one one , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh it 's basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it 's in or which one of the weighting systems", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right , so I mean the way you desc", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "W I was just , if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too , couldn't you ? OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha , beta , whatever , or is the {disfmarker} that 's determined by what the experts are saying , like the type of situ OK . Hmm . OK . OK . I mean It {disfmarker} it just seems that like without that {disfmarker} that outside input that you 've got a situation where , you know , like if {disfmarker} if uh X - one says no , you know , a low value coming out of X - on or i if X - one says no then ignore X - one , you know , I mean that seems like that 'd be weird ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , well could be things like if X - two and X - three say yes then i ignore X - one also .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? Oh , OK . OK . Alright , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh The situations that H has , are they built into the net or OK , so they {disfmarker} they could either be hand coded or learned or OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Based on training data , OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations . Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um Well , I mean to learn them we need data , where are we gonna get data ? Well I mean we need data with people intentions , right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Which is slightly tricky . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But what 's the data about like , are we able to get these nodes from the data ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Like how thrifty the user is , or do we have access to that ? Mm - hmm . Oh right . Oh good . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that 's my question , like how do we {disfmarker} I mean , how do we have data about something like um um endpoint sub - E , or endpoint sub uh {pause} you know s S ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , basically you would say , based on {disfmarker} in this dialogue that we have which one of the things that they said eh whether it was the entity relations or whatever was the thing that determined what mode it was ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So this is what we wanna learn . Yep . Right . Hmm . Yeah . I don't think , well you have a {disfmarker} can you bring up the function thing ? Um w where is the thing that allows you to sort of", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's on the added variable , isn't it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh function properties , is that it ? Hmm , I guess not . Yeah , that 's", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . OK . And um it so e either it 'll allow us to do everything which I think is unlikely , I think more likely it 'll allow us to do very few of these things and in that case we 'll have to um just write up little things that allow you to um create such CPU 's on your own in the java base format . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do because yeah I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do , it 's Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ah . Well in terms of java base I think it 's basically what you see is what you get in I don't yeah , I would be surprised if it supports anything more than what we have right here .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So Yeah . Yeah . By the way um uh just talking about uh about that general end of things uh is there gonna be data soon from what people say when they 're interacting with the system and so on ? Like , I mean , what kind of questions are being given {disfmarker} being asked ? Cuz {disfmarker} OK . Yeah yeah . OK . OK . Fey , you mean . OK . OK . O OK . OK . I 'm just wondering , because in terms of , you know , I mean uh w the figure {disfmarker} I was thinking about this figure that we talked about , fifty constructions or whatever that 's uh that 's a whole lot of constructions and um you know , I mean one might be f fairly pleased with getting a really good analysis of five maybe ten in a summer so , I mean I know we 're going for sort of a rough and ready . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK . OK . I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} uh I was talking about the , you know , if you wanted to do it really in detail and we don't really need all the detail for what we 're doing right now but anyway in terms of just narrowing that task you know which fifty do I do , I wanna see what people are using , so Well , it will inspire me . Right , sure sure . Right . Yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah . OK . Touche . Good enough .", "speaker": "Grad A" } ]

[ { "content": "Alright , so I 'm - I should read all of these numbers ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Piece of paper ? I could borrow ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so uh i um I don't know whether Ami 's coming or not um but I think we oughta just get started .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Nancy is uh currently in Berkeley but not here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Nancy 's still stick ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Don't know . Anyway", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , so there you go . Anyway , so my idea f for today and we can uh decide that that isn't the right thing to do was to at {disfmarker} spend at least part of the time trying to eh build the influence links , you know which sets of things are uh relevant to which decisions and actually I had uh specific s suggestion to start first with the path ones . The database ones being in some sense less interesting to us although probably have to be done and so to do that so there 's {disfmarker} and the idea was we were gonna do two things", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is your mike on ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ah . Oh right , well . Yeah . We were gonna do two things one of which is just lay out the influence structure of what we think influences what", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's funny .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and then as a uh separate but related task uh particularly Bhaskara and I were going to try to decide what kinds of belief nodes are needed in order to um do what we {disfmarker} what we need to do . Once so but du we should sort of have all of the uh basic design of what influences what done before we decide exactly how to compute it . So I didn't {disfmarker} did you get a chance to look at all {disfmarker} yet ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I looked at some of that stuff .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Great . OK so let 's start with the uh belief - nets , the general influence stuff and then we 'll {disfmarker} then we 'll also at some point break and talk about the techy stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I think one could go there 's I think we can di discuss everything . First of all this I added , I knew from sort of basically this has to be there right ? Um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh are you gonna go there or not ? Yeah , so one i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Given {disfmarker} given uh uh not transverse the castle , the decision is does the person want to go there or is it just", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right , true . Does have to be there . And I 'm sure we 'll find more as we go that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And Hmm ? So Go - there in the first place or not is definitely uh one of the basic ones . We can start with that . Interesting effect . Um Is this basically true or false or maybe we 'll get", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Which one ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "what ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "\" Go there \" .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "m right .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "so there is this question about", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Here we we actually get just probabilities ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "right for each down here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "When we 're {disfmarker} yeah when we 're done . So {disfmarker} so", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the reason it might not be true or false is that we did have this idea of when so it 's , you know uh current @ @ and so forth and so on or not at all ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "right ? And so that a decision would be do we want that so you could {disfmarker} two different things you could do , you could have all those values for Go - there or you could have Go - there be binary and given that you 're going there when .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "When . How .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Why ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So I 'll let", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "we 'll see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I mean it seems that you could um uh it seems that those things would be logically independent like you would wanna have them separate or binary , Go - there and then the {disfmarker} the possibilities of how to go there because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , that 's {disfmarker} let 's start that way .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because , you know it might be easy to figure out that this person is going to need more film eventually from their utterance but it 's much more complex to query when would be the most appropriate time .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Hmm . OK . And so I 've tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user ? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model - A . We should be be clear . But when it comes to sort of writing down when you {disfmarker} when you do these things is it here ? You sort of have to a write the values this can take .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And here I was really uh in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because um {disfmarker} this case it 's pretty simple , but as we will see the other ones um for example if it 's a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "How can I write here that this is something , a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK . Thus is understandable ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Think so .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So here for example .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "You 've s have you seen this before at all Keith , these belief - net things ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no , but I think I 'm following it . So far .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So here is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we had that the user 's budget may influence the outcome of decisions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK , h well I mean how is it different from user finance ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um the finance is sort of here thought of as {disfmarker} as the financial policy a person carries out in his life , he {disfmarker} is he cheap , average , or spendy ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um I didn't come uh maybe a user I don't know , I didn't want to write greediness , but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or cheapness .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Welcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "User thrift .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Welcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Thrift , that 's good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "There it is .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So Keith w what 's behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief - nets for you and stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So this is not just a display , this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we 'll wind up with a functioning belief - net at the other end .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And it 's so simple even I can use it .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Wow , that is simple .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so here was OK , I can think of uh people being cheap , average , or spendy or we can even have a {disfmarker} a finer scale moderately cheap ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Doesn't matter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "doesn't matter . Agree there but here um I wasn't sure what to write in .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Let 's {disfmarker} go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , I mean you 've written in {disfmarker} you 've written in what uh seems to be required like what else is {disfmarker} is do you want ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If that 's permissible then I 'm happy .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well yeah . So here 's {disfmarker} here 's what 's permissible is that you can arrange so that the um the value of that is gonna have to be updated and n it 's not a belief update , right ? It 's {disfmarker} you took some actions , you spent money and stuff , so the update of that is gonna have to be essentially external to the belief - net . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And then what you 're going to need is uh for the things that it influences . Well let 's {disfmarker} first of all let 's see if it does influence anything . And if it does influence anything then you 're gonna need something that converts from the {disfmarker} the number here to something that 's relevant to the decision there . So it could be ra they create different ranges that are relevant for different decisions or whatever {disfmarker} but for the moment this is just a node that is conditioned externally and might influence various things .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yeah {disfmarker} this is where um OK anyways let 's forget it .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well that 's fine . Well anyway , go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , and so this , oh that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "The other thing is that um every time that 's updated beliefs will have to be propagated but then the question is do you {disfmarker} do we wanna propagate beliefs every single time it 's updated or only when we need to ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's a good question . And uh does it have a lazy mode ? I don't remember .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh Well , I mean , in Srini 's thing there was this thing {disfmarker} there was this um option like proper inferences which suggests that uh doesn't happen , automatically .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh right . Yeah . S probably does . Yeah someone has to track that down , but I {disfmarker} but uh And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I think {disfmarker} actually uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I just accidentally Oops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "one of the we w items for the uh user home base uh should be uh essentially non - local . I they 're only there for the day and they don't have a place that they 're staying .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh just uh accidentally erased this , I {disfmarker} I just had values here such as uh um is he s we had in our list we had \" Is he staying in our hotel ? \" , \" Is he staying with friends ? \" , and so forth", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh so we 're OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So it 's clear where w w w where we are right now . So my suggestion is we just pick uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Something down here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "one , you know one uh particular one of the uh well let 's do the first {disfmarker} first one let 's do the one that we sort of already think we did so w that was the {disfmarker} of the endpoint ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . And um Oops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is hmm", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ah ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So it 's true or false ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . No no no , EVA .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Missed that one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What 's the difference between mode and endpoint ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I thought mode , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "although that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um mode was um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , that 's", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mode of transportation ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK . Also true or false .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No , he has he hasn't filled them in yet , is what 's true .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Did I or didn't I ? Ah . Probably nothing done yet , oh I just did it on the upper ones , OK . Makes sense . OK , so this was EVA . Maybe we can think of more things , cross", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Climb , rob .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "climb , emerge", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No no no , these are ju that 's just a point ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well some of those are subsumed by approach .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "this is ju", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Would it be an endpoint if you were crossing over it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The Charles Bridge , you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , would be a f for a given segment . You know , you {disfmarker} y you go {disfmarker} first go the town square", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I eh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I mean , if you go to re you know if you go to Prague or whatever one of your {disfmarker} your key points that you have to do is cross the Charles Bridge and doesn't really matter which way you cross which {disfmarker} where you end up at the end but the part {disfmarker} the good part is walking over it , so .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's subtle , but true . Anyway so let 's just leave it three {disfmarker} with three for now", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm , mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and let 's see if we can get it linked up just to get ourselves started .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , we", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "You 'll see it {disfmarker} you 'll see something comes up immediately , that the reason I wanna do this .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "w well the uh user was uh definitely more likely to enter if he 's a local", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "more likely to view if he 's a tourist um and then of course we had the fact that given the fact that he 's thrifty and there will be admission then we get all these cross um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "We did , but the three things w that {disfmarker} that it contributed to this in fact , the other two aren't up there . so one was the ontology", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We 'll d what type of building is it ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the third thing we talked about was something from the discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What he has mentioned before .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , so this is w Right , so what w I {disfmarker} what we seem to need here , this is why it starts getting into the technical stuff", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "the way we had been designing this , there were three intermediate nodes uh which were the endpoint decision as seen from the uh user model as seen from the ontology and as seen from the discourse . So each of those the way we had it designed , now we can change the design , but the design we had was there was a decision with the same three outcomes uh based on the th those three separate considerations", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so if we wanted to do that would have to put in uh three intermediate nodes", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh we can load it up it you know very simple .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and then what you and I have to talk about is , OK if we 're doing that and they get combined somehow uh how do they get combined ? But the {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're undoubtedly gonna be more things to worry about .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So this was adjusted for this one mode thing .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So that 's w w in our uh in {disfmarker} in Johno 's sort of pictogram everything that could contribute to whether a person wants to enter , view , or approach something .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , it was called mode , so this {disfmarker} this is m mode here means the same as endpoint .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is now this endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , why don't we ch can we change that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We can just rename that , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright . You know , but that was actually , yeah unfortunately that was a um kind of an intermediate versio that 's I don't think what we would currently do .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Can I ask about \" slurred \" and \" angry \" as inputs to this ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} why ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Like they 're either true or false", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The prosody ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and they uh oh I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If the {disfmarker} if the person talking is angry or slurs their speech they might be tired or , you know", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Drunk .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Therefore", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And , you know , possibly uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Less likely to enter .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "some ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "uh I was thinking less likely to view", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But that 's - that seems to , yeah . So {disfmarker} so my advice to do is {disfmarker} is get this down to what we think is actually likely to {disfmarker} to be a {disfmarker} a strong influence .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But yeah , that was what he had in mind .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So let 's think about this {disfmarker} this question of how do we wanna handle {disfmarker} so there 're two separate things . One is {disfmarker} uh at least two . One is how do we want to handle the notion of the ontology now what we talked about , and this is another technical thing Bhaskara , is uh can we arrange so that I think we can so that the belief - net itself has properties and the properties are filled in uh from on ontology items . So the {disfmarker} let 's take the case of the uh this endpoint thing , the notion was that if you had a few key properties like is this a tourist site , you know some kind of landmark is it a place of business uh is it something you physically could enter", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , et cetera . So that there 'd be certain properties that would fit into the decision node and then again as part of the ou outer controlling conditioning of this thing those would be set , so that some somehow someone would find this word , look it up in the ontology , pull out these properties , put it into the belief - net , and then the decision would flow .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Now", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Seems to me that we 've sort of e em embedded a lot , em embedded a lot of these uh things we had in there previously in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some of the other final decisions done here , for example if we would know that this thing is exhibiting something um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it 's exhibiting itself it is a landmark ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "meaning more likely to be viewed", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it is exhibiting pictures or sculptures and stuff like this , then it 's more likely to be entered .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I uh that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's completely right and um I think that 's good , right ? So what {disfmarker} what that says is that we might be able to uh take and in particular so {disfmarker} so the ones we talked about were uh exhibiting and selling", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Accessibility .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "no , accessibility meant", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If it 's closed one probably won't enter . Or if it 's not accessible to a tourist ever the likelihood of that person actually wanting to enter it ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "given that he knows it , of course .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright . So let me suggest this . Uh w could you move those up about halfway . Uh The ones that you th And selling I guess .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , all {disfmarker} all of these if it 's fixing things selling things , or servicing things", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . So here {disfmarker} here 's what it looks like to me . is that you want an intermediate structure which i uh is essentially the or of uh for this purpose of {disfmarker} of uh selling , f fixing , or servicing . So that it uh that is , for certain purposes , it becomes important but for this kind of purpose uh one of these places is quite like the other . Does that seem right ? So we di", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Basic you 're basically just merging those for just the sake of endpoint decision ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "if we Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} well it may be more than endpoint decisions , so the idea would be that you might wanna merge those three", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "These three ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Eh ser s uh selling , fixing , and servicing .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What ex um and so either those is true f or false ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh Uh well it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i here 's where it gets a little tricky .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh from the belief - net point of view it is from another point of view of course it 's interest it 's {disfmarker} it 's important to know what it 's selling or servicing and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So for this decision it 's just uh true or false", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and in th this is a case where the or seems just what you want .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} that if any of those things is true then it 's the kind of place that you uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um more likely to enter .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "are more likely to enter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So you just wanna have them all pointing to a summary thing ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You could , yeah . Yeah , so let 's do that . No no , no eh to {disfmarker} to an inter no , an intermediate node .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "T", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "That 's the p part of the idea , is", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um is {disfmarker} is that the object type node ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I d", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So are they the {disfmarker} is it the kind of object that sells , fixes , or services things ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , o open up object type and let 's see what its values are .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh I just created it , it has none so far .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , well OK first of all it 's not objects , we called them entities , right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And then we have sort of the um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Let 's say I put commercial .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I w I was just gonna commercial action inside where people p", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well couldn't I do {disfmarker} let 's do commercial uh landmark and", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And where was the accessible , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well accessible I think is different cuz that 's tempor that {disfmarker} that varies temporally ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "whereas this is a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What would a hotel fall under ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I would call that a service , but {disfmarker} but I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I mean in terms of entity type ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Say w w well it 's co I would s a a again for this purpose I think it 's commercial . Someplace you want to go in to do some kind of business .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um what does the underscore - T at the end of each of those things signify ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um things . So places that service things sell things or fix things and pe places that e exhibit things .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK . OK . That also points to entity type I guess .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So we 're deriving um this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this feature of whether the {disfmarker} the main action at this place happens inside or outside or what we 're deriving that from what kind of activity is done there ? Couldn't you have it as just a primitive feature of the entity ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well you could , that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a choice .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean it seems like that 's much more reliable cuz you could have outdoor places that sell things and you know indoor places that do something else", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , the problem with it is that it sort of putting in a feature just for one decision ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "now w we may wind up having to do that this i anyway , this i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "at a mental level that 's what we we 're gonna have to sort out .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So , you know what does this look like , what are {disfmarker} what are uh intermediate things that are worth computing , what are the features we need in order to make all these decisions", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and what 's the best way to organize this so that um it 's clean and {disfmarker} and consistent and all that sort of stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . I 'm just thinking about how people , human beings who know about places and places to go and so on would store this and it would probably {disfmarker} you wouldn't just sort of remember that they sell stuff and then deduce from that that it must be going on inside or something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I think an entity maybe should be regard as a vector of several possible things , it can either em do s do sell things , fix things , service things , exhibit things , it can be a landmark at the same time as doing these things ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it 's not either or mmm certainly a place can be a hotel and a famous site .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Many come to mind . Things can be generally um a landmark and be accessible . IE a {disfmarker} a castle or can be a landmark a or not accessible , some statue", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know can go inside .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK . Anyway so let me suggest you do something else . Uh which is to get rid {disfmarker} get rid of that l long link between who {disfmarker} the user and the endpoint .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Could we just move it like this ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No no , I don't want the link there at all .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Because what we 're gonna want is an intermediate thing which is uh the endpoint decisi the endpoint decision based o on the user models , so what we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} what we talked about is three separate endpoint decisions , so let 's make a new node", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Just as a suggestion maybe you could \" save as \" to keep your old one nice and clean and so you can mess with this one .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm . The old one was not that not that important , I think but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , well , not a big deal then .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's do it then .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the {disfmarker} Isn't there a \" save as \" inside of java base ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But I can just take this", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "copy it somewhere else . This was user something", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well this was", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh let 's p put it this {disfmarker} let 's do endpoint underbar - U .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "end point ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "i endpoint , e end poi this is sa", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "it 's the endpoint", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Gotcha , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "let 's say underbar - U , so that 's the endpoint decision uh as seen through the", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "As related from the user model .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . So let 's {disfmarker} let 's actually yeah so lin you can link that up to the", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Should I rename this {pause} too ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh yeah , so that , I guess that 's endpoint uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": " It 's underscore - E .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "underscore - E for entity , and we may change all this , but . Right . And", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , shouldn't I be able to move them all ? No . Or {disfmarker} ? Can I ? Where ? What ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh I d eh I don't know . Actually , I guess the easiest thing would move {disfmarker} mo move the endpoint , well , go ahead . Just do whatever .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Wasn't this possible ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I think you have to be in move mode before", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Good . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So now we 're looking for user related things that um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . And uh maybe th maybe it 's just one who is the user , I don't know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe there 's more .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well if he 's usi if he 's in a car right now what was that people with Harry drove the car into the cafe", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Never mind . Uh anyway , this is crude . Now but the {disfmarker} now so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but then the question is uh so {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and we assume that some of these properties would come indirectly through an ontology , but then we had this third idea of input from the discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} should we finish this ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean but surely the user interests", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The user thrift , the user budget .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , maybe , I again , I d well , OK , put em in but what we 're gonna wanna do is actually uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Here this was one of my problems we have the user interest is a {disfmarker} is a vector of five hundred values , so um That 's from the user model ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh you mean level of interest ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "mm - hmm , no not levels of interest but things you can be interested in .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "somebody else has built this user model .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh I see ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Gothic churches versus Baroque townhouses versus", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "right . So why is it oh it , so it 's like a vector of five hundred one 's or zero 's ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yea - n is that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Like for each thing are we {disfmarker} are you interested in it or not ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yeah uh I {disfmarker} I think", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So uh you cou and so here let me give you two ways to handle that . Alright ? One is um you could ignore it . But the other thing you could do is have an {disfmarker} and this will give you the flavor of the {disfmarker} of what you could have a node that 's {disfmarker} that was a measure of the match between the object 's feature , you know , the match between the object the entity , I 'm sorry and the user .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So you could have a k a \" fit \" node and again that would have to be computed by someone else", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but uh so that uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just as a mental note uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's all .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} and should we say that this interests eh affects the likelihood of {disfmarker} of entering ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , we could .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And also if it 's an expensive place to enter , this may also", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Budget .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "User schedule . \" Do I have time to go in and climb all the way to the top of the Koelner Dome {comment} or do I just have to {disfmarker} \" \" time to take a picture of the outside ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Schedule ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It seems like everything in a user model a affects {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well that 's what we don't wanna do , see that {disfmarker} se cuz then we get into huge combinatorics and stuff like that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "an", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Cuz if the , I mean , and if the user is tired , the user state ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right , it would affect stuff , but I can't see why e anything w everything in the model wouldn't be", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} we can't do that , so we we 're gonna have to", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but this is a good discussion , we 're gonna have to somehow figure out uh some way to encapsulate that uh so if there 's some general notion of for example the uh relation to the time to do this to the amount of time the guy has or something like that is {disfmarker} is the uh compatibility with his current state , so that 's what you 'd have to do , you 'd have to get it down to something which uh was itself relatively compact , so it could be compatibility with his current state which would include his money and his time and {disfmarker} and his energy", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , just seems like it 'd push the problem back a level .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It does .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No but , it 's more than that , like the {disfmarker} the more sort of you break it up like because if you have everything pointing to one node it 's like exponential whereas if you like keep breaking it up more and more it 's not exponential anymore .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So it yeah , there are two advantages . That 's tha there 's one technical one", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Sh - sh yeah , {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and the other is it {disfmarker} it gets used", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "S so we 'd basically be doing subgrouping ? Subgrouping , basically into mo", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so basically make it more tree like going backwards ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . But it {disfmarker} there 's two advantages , one is the technical one that you don't wind up with such big exponential uh CBT 's ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Bhaskara ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "the other is it can be {disfmarker} it presumably can be used for multiple decisions .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So that if you have this idea of the compatibility with the requirements of an action to the state of the user one could well imagine that that was u", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "not only is it sim is it cleaner to compute it separately but it could be that it 's used in multiple places . Anyway th so in general this is the design , this is really design problem .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , you 've got a signal , a d set of decisions um how do we do this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What do I have under user state anyhow cuz I named that already something . Oh that 's tired , fresh , yeah . Maybe should be renamed into physical state .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Or fat user fatigue even .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's with a \" G \" ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": " Whatever .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Then we can make a user state .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What 's th what we 're talking about is compatibility . Uh or something , I don't know , but .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess the {disfmarker} the question uh is It 's hard for me to imagine how everything wouldn't just contribute to user state again . Or user compatibility .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh but the thing is that we uh uh we had some things that uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That don't .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "that don't", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The user interests and the user who {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who the user is are completely apart from the fact whether he is tired broke", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure , but other {disfmarker} I thought though the node we 're creating right now is user compatibility to the current action , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "the right", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Seems like everything in the user model would contribute to whether or not the user was compatible with something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh maybe not . I mean the {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} the issue is um would Even if it was true in some abstract general sense it might not be true in terms of the information we actually had and can make use of . And anyway we 're gonna have to find some way to cl uh get this sufficiently simple to make it feasible .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Maybe um if we look at the {disfmarker} if we split it up again into sort of um if we look at the uh the endpoint again we {disfmarker} we said that for each of these things there are certain preconditions so you can only enter a place if you are not too tired to do so and also eh have the money to do so if it costs something so if you can afford it and perform it is preconditions . Viewing usually is cheap or free .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is that always true ? I don't know .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , with the way we 're defining it I think yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "W w but that eh viewing it without ent yeah view w with our definition of view it 's free cuz you", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And so is approaching .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well what about the Grand Canyon , right ? No , never mind . I mean are there {disfmarker} are there large things that you would have to pay to get up close to like , I mean never mind , not in the current {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No we have to enter the park .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Eh almost by definition um paying involves entering ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "ge going through some", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Right , sure .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Uh So let me suggest we switch to another one , I mean clearly there 's more work to be done on this", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but I think it 's gonna be more instructive to {disfmarker} to think about uh other decisions that we need to make in path land . And what they 're gonna look like .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So you can save this one as and open up the old one , right and {disfmarker} and then everything would be clean . You could do it again .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why , I think it 's worth saving this one but I think I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to keep this one", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "cuz I wanna see if {disfmarker} if we 're gonna reuse any of this stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um so this might be What next ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well you tell me , so in terms of the uh planner what 's {disfmarker} what 's a good one to do ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} th this go there or not I think is a good one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is a very basic one . So what makes things more likely that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the fir see the first thing is , getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So Keith this is gonna get into your world because uh we 're gonna want to know you know , which constructions indicate various of these properties", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "s and so I {disfmarker} I don't yet know how to do this , I guess we 're gonna wind up pulling out uh discourse properties like we have object properties and we don't know what they are yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that the Go - there decision will have a node from uh discourse , and I guess why don't we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Of {disfmarker} of course .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Identified that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and so again re that 's completely correct , we have the user model , the situation model here , we don't have the discourse model here yet . Much the same way as we didn't {disfmarker} we don't have the ontology here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting , selling , and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Really .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So in some sense it 's {disfmarker} it 's there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But the discourse we don't have it represented at all yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um This be specific for second year ? Um And {disfmarker} and we probably will have uh something like a discourse for endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But if we do it 'll have the three values .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "It 'll have the EVA values if {disfmarker} if we have it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK just for starters and here discourse um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "For Go - there , probably is true and false , let 's say . That 's what we talked about .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um well , I think um we 're looking at the {disfmarker} the little data that we have , so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they wanna go there .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So this should sort of push it in one direction", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And sometimes um people say where is it", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because they wanna know where it is but in most cases they probably", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that doesn't change the fact that you 're {disfmarker} you want these two values .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , true . So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it 's either {pause} yep , yay , A , or nay . Yeah . OK ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And they 'll be a y uh , a user Go - there and maybe that 's all , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Situation Go - there , I mean , because it 's {disfmarker} whether it 's open or not .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That definitely interes", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But that now that kind of um what 's the word", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "um the {disfmarker} that interacts with the uh EVA thing if they just wanna view it then it 's fine to go there when it 's closed whereas if they want to um", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's where it starts getting to be uh uh essentially more interesting , so what uh Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they 're only going to view it then it doesn't matter whether it 's closed or not", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "in terms of uh uh you know , whether {disfmarker} whether you wanna go there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The time of day ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right I {disfmarker} well , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It does matter though if there 's like a strike or riot or something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right . So yeah , that 's what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this {disfmarker} that node by itself wouldn't distinguish", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well i i it can have di various values . Yeah , but we eh you {disfmarker} you 're right it might not be enough .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean , see I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking that any node that begins with \" Go - there \" is either gonna be true or false .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , what {disfmarker} Whoops .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah . I see that could be .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Also , that node , I mean the Go - there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "you know , there 's different things , the strikes and the", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Could be . Yeah . N", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Like situation traffic and so on .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , the time of day .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So {disfmarker} so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that uh there sh should be a link , and this is where things are gonna get very messy from the endpoint uh decision", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess the final", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "maybe the t they 're final re and , I guess the very bottom endpoint decision uh to the Go - there node . And I {disfmarker} don't worry about layout ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean then we 'll go {disfmarker} we 'll go nuts but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Maybe we could um have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go - there S node sort of fed into ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Could be , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right . Because that 's what we , I mean that 's why this situation comes up .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well the Go - there , actually the Endpoint node could feed {disfmarker} feed into the Go - there S That 's right ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so the Endpoint node ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "make that up t t to the Go - there then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and again we 'll have to do layout at some point , but something like that . Now it 's gonna be important not to have loops by the way . Uh really important in {disfmarker} in the belief worl net world not to have loops", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I was just gonna", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "How long does it take you to {disfmarker} to compute uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No it 's much worse than that . It {disfmarker} if i loo it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's not def i it 's not well defined if you 're there are loops ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} things don't converge , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "uh R recursive action ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there isn't uh OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh but this isn't , this is {disfmarker} this line is just coming from over here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , no it 's not a loop yet , I 'm just saying we {disfmarker} we , in no , in", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , but the good thing is we {disfmarker} we could have loopy belief propagation which {vocalsound} we all love .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . OK , so anyway , so that 's another decision . Uh what 's {disfmarker} what 's another decision you like ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , these have no parents yet , but I guess that sort of doesn't matter . Right ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , the idea is that you go there , you go comes from something about the user from something about the situation and the uh the discourse is {disfmarker} is a mystery .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean this is sort of This comes from traffic and so forth , yeah . Sh - Should we just make some", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure , if you want .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um if there 's parking maybe Mmm Oh who cares . OK . And if he has seen it already or not and so forth ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Um and discourse is something that sort of should we make a Keith note here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That sort of comes from Keith .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just sort of so we don't forget . Oops . Have to get used to this . OK , whoops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Um actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And then also the discourse endpoint , I {disfmarker} I guess endpoint sub - D is {disfmarker} if you wanna make it consistent .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Wh - ah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Um actually is this the {disfmarker} the right way to have it where um go there from the user and go there from the situation just sort of don't know about each other but they both feed the go there decision because isn't the , I mean", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think so . S", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh , hmm OK . But that still allows for the possibility of the {disfmarker} of the user model affecting our decision about whether a strike is the sort of thing which is going to keep this user away from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Maybe not , a Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} all that {disfmarker} that kind of decision making happens at the Go - there node .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh y you {disfmarker} yeah you {disfmarker} i you {disfmarker} if you needed to do that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh . If you needed it to do that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But uh OK I was just thinking I guess maybe I 'm conflating that user node with possible {disfmarker} possible asking of the user", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "you know hey there 's a strike on , uh does that affect whether or not you wanna go or something", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah . Good point , I don't {disfmarker} I don't know how we 're going to {disfmarker} t uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or Yeah , so that might not come out of a user model but , you know , directly out of interaction .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Uh I gu yes my curr you know , don't yeah yeah yeah that 's enough .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh My current idea on that would be that each of these decision nodes has questions associated with it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And the question wouldn't itself be one of these conditional things", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know , given that you know there 's a strike do you still wanna go ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But uh if you told him a bunch of stuff , then you would ask him do you wanna go ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I think trying to formulate the conditional question , that sounds too much .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right , right . Yeah . Right , sure , OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "To me .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright , but let me {disfmarker} let {disfmarker} let 's stay with this a minute", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "because I want to do a little bit of organization . Before we get more into details . The organization is going to be that uh the flavor of what 's going on is going to be that uh as we s e sort of going to this detail indeed Keith is going to {disfmarker} to worry about the various constructions that people might use", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and Johno has committed himself to being the parser wizard ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so what 's going to happen is that eventually like by the time he graduates , OK uh they 'll be some sort of system which is able to take the discourse in context and have outputs that can feed the rest of belief - net . I j wa I {disfmarker} I assume everybody knows that , I just wanna you know , get closure that that 'll be the game then ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so the semantics that you 'll get out of the discourse will be of values that go into the various discourse - based decision nodes . And now some of those will get fancier like mode of transportation and stuff so it isn't by any means uh necessarily a simple thing that you want out . So uh if there is an and there is mode of transportation", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And it there 's a sort of also a split if you loo if you blow this up and look at it in more detail there 's something that comes from the discourse in terms of what was actually just said what 's the utterance go giving us", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and then what 's the discourse history give us .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , well that , well , we 'll have to decide uh how much of th where that goes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's uh two things then .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "an and it 's not clear yet . I mean it could be those are two separate things , it could be that the discourse gadget itself integrates em as {disfmarker} which would be my guess that you 'd have to do see in order to do reference and stuff like that um you 've gotta have both the current discourse and the context to say I wanna go back there ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "wow , what does that mean and uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Now . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Alright . So", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But is th is this picture that 's emerging here just my wish that you have noticed already for symmetry or is it that we get for each {disfmarker} each decision on the very bottom we sort of get the sub - E , sub - D , sub - U and maybe a sub - O {disfmarker} \" O \" for \" ontology \" um meta node", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but it might just", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "It could be .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "could be", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is getting into the thing I wanna talk about next ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so this", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "which is s if that 's true uh how do we wanna combine those ? O or when it 's true ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but this eh w wou wou would be nice though that , you know , we only have at most four at the moment um arrows going f to each of the uh bottom decisions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And four you {disfmarker} we can handle .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It 's too much ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well i i it see i if it 's fou if it 's four things and each of them has four values it turns out to be a big CPT , it 's not s completely impossi I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not beyond what the system could solve but it 's probably beyond what we could actually uh write down . or learn .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right , true .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh but , you know it 's four to the fourth . It 's pretty big . Uh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two fifty - six ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "is that what that", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it 's and I don't think it 's gonna g e I don't think it 'll get worse than that by the way , so le that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a good", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but four {disfmarker} didn't we decide that all of these had true or false ? So is {disfmarker} it 's four", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh for go there , but not f but not for {disfmarker} the other one 's three values for endpoint already .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean you need actually three to the five because uh well I mean if {disfmarker} if it has four inputs and then it itself has three values", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so I mean it can get big fast .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um for endpoint ? No it 's {disfmarker} it 's sh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "EV - it 's the EVA .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah , down here , but this one only has two .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No it still has three ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Since ta they will still have three .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "EVA .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Each {disfmarker} so you 're uh uh from each point of view you 're making the same decision .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So from the point of view of the ob of the entity", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Want to view that , yeah yeah . C sl", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker} and also , I mean , the other places where , like for example consider endpoint view , it has inputs coming from user budget , user thrift", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so even", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Those are not necessarily binary . S so we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna have to use some t care in the knowledge engineering to not have this explode . And in fact I think it doesn't in the sense that um Read it , you know actually with the underlying semantics and stuff I think it isn't like you have two hundred and fifty - six different uh ways of {disfmarker} of thinking about whether this user wants to go to some place . Alright . So we {disfmarker} we just have to figure out what the regularities are and and code them . But um What I was gonna suggest next is maybe we wanna work on this a little longer but I do want to also talk about the thing that we started into now of uh well it 's all fine to say all these arrows come into the si same place what rule of combination is used there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So th yes they {disfmarker} so these things all affect it ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "how do they affect it ? And belief - nets have their own beliefs about uh what are good ways to do that . So is it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clearer n clear enough what the issue is ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? So do we wanna switch that now or we wanna do some more of this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "R basically w we just need to sort of in order to get some closure on this figure out how we 're gonna get this picture sort of uh completely messy .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , here {disfmarker} he here 's one of the things that {disfmarker} that I th you sh you {disfmarker} no , I don't know how easy it is to do this in the interface but you {disfmarker} it would be great if you could actually just display at a given time uh all the things that you pick up , you click on \" endpoint \" , OK and everything else fades", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and you just see the links that are relevant to that . And I does anybody remember the GUI on this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh d I would almost say the other way to do that would be to open u or make you know N - many belief - nets and then open them every time you wanted to look at a different one", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "vers cuz uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's probably pretty easy do it {disfmarker} to do it in HTML , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "HTML ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah I have each of these thing each of the end belief - nets be {disfmarker} be a page and then you click on the thing and then li consider that it 's respective ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well the b", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "anyway so uh it clear that even with this if we put in all the arrows nobody is gonna be able to read the diagram .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright , so e we have to figure out some eh eh uh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} let me consi suggest that 's a s not a first - order consideration , we have two first - order considerations which is what are the uh influences A , A , and B how do they get combined mathematically , how do we display them is an issue , but um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I don't , yeah I just don't think this has been designed to support something like that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , it might soon , if this is gonna be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to uh start modifying it for our purposes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , and Um I {disfmarker} that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into , but um we have to know what we want first . OK , so why don't you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what {disfmarker} what the choices might be for these ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So Ah , sorry . I guess that 's", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You can technically wear that as you 're talking .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's right , I guess I can do that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Darn .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Put it in your , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess this board works fine . So um recall the basic problem which is that um you have a belief - net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node . Right ? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it 's so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty - three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down . So what um helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set , right ? These are all like saying EV or A , right ? So it 's not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we wanna just take a combination of {disfmarker} we wanna view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we wanna sort of combine their decisions and create you know , um sorta weighted combination .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm . ROVER , the ROVER decision .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "The what decision ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "ROVER . All of their outputs combined to make a decision .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So the problem is to specify the uh so the conditional property of this given all those , right ? That 's the way belief - nets are defined , like each node given its parents , right ? So um that 's what we want , we want for example P of um let 's call this guy Y and let 's call these X - one , X - two XN , right . So we want probability that Y equals , you know , for example um E given that these guys are I 'll just refer to this as like X um hat or something , uh the co like all of them ? Given that for example the data says you know , A , V , A , E , or something right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So we would like to do this kind of combination .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Alright , so um Is that uh I {disfmarker} yeah , I just wanna make sure everybody is with us before he goes on .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think so , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's cl e is {disfmarker} is it clear what he wants to compute ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . So , right . So Basically um {vocalsound} what we don't wanna do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E , s give a number", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because that 's obviously not desirable . What we wanna do is find some principled way of um saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution , so we want it to um add up to one , right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So those are the two things that we uh need . So what uh I guess , what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we , you know view these guys as voting and we just take the uh we essentially take um averages , right ? So for example here two people have voted for A , one has voted for V , and one has voted for E , so we could say that the probabilities are , you know , probability of being E is one over four , because one person voted for E out of four and similarly , probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is um two out of four and probability of V is one out of four . Right ? So that 's step {disfmarker} that 's the uh yeah that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the basic uh thing . Now", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is that all OK ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And that one outcome , that 's", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "it 's X {disfmarker} X - one voted for A X - two voted for V", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and so forth ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Y right . Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things , which may or may not be a good assumption ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's the outcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So step two is um right . So we 've assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know , some w be that for example , what the um the actual the uh verbal content of what the person said , like what uh what might be uh somehow more uh important than the uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "X - one matters more i than X - two or", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . Sure , so we don't wanna like give them all equal weight so currently we 've been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by uh W - one , W - two , W - three , and W - four", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each um X - hat , we just need that the W 's sum to one . So they can be for example , you know you {disfmarker} you could have point one , point three , point two , and point four , say .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And that 'd be one . So that um also seems to work fine . And uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So I jus just to make sure I understand this , so in this case um we would still compute the average ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You 'd compute the weighted average , so the probability of E would be uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} so it 'd be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be uh {comment} W one times {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Point three .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or A or {disfmarker} let 's see , one full quarter times point one", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Not one quarter ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so these numbers have been replaced with point one , point three , point two , and point four . So you can view these as gone .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Probability of", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK . So , alright . So this is uh step two . So the next possibility is that um we 've given just a single weight to each expert , right , whereas it might be the case that um in certain situations one of the experts is more uh reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable . So the way this is handled is by what 's called a mixture of experts , so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called \" H \" , OK ? This is a hidden variable . And what this is is it gets its input from X - one , X - two , X - three , and X - four , and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation . Right ? And then these guys all come here . OK . So this is sightly uh more complicated . So what 's going on is that um this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these isn't likely to be more reliable or most reliable . So H produces some you know , it produces a number , either one , two , three , or four , in our situation , right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it 's two , and then he just selects the uh thing . That 's all there is to say , I guess about it . Right , so you can have a mixture that", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs . It 's driving how the other four are interpreted . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So H passes a vector on to the next node ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It could .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It could ? A vector of the weights as the se", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it could", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well a vector with three zero 's and one one , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh it 's basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it 's in or which one of the weighting systems", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right , so I mean the way you desc", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "W I was just , if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too , couldn't you ? OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha , beta , whatever , or is the {disfmarker} that 's determined by what the experts are saying , like the type of situ OK . Hmm . OK . OK . I mean It {disfmarker} it just seems that like without that {disfmarker} that outside input that you 've got a situation where , you know , like if {disfmarker} if uh X - one says no , you know , a low value coming out of X - on or i if X - one says no then ignore X - one , you know , I mean that seems like that 'd be weird ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , well could be things like if X - two and X - three say yes then i ignore X - one also .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? Oh , OK . OK . Alright , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh The situations that H has , are they built into the net or OK , so they {disfmarker} they could either be hand coded or learned or OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Based on training data , OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations . Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um Well , I mean to learn them we need data , where are we gonna get data ? Well I mean we need data with people intentions , right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Which is slightly tricky . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But what 's the data about like , are we able to get these nodes from the data ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Like how thrifty the user is , or do we have access to that ? Mm - hmm . Oh right . Oh good . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that 's my question , like how do we {disfmarker} I mean , how do we have data about something like um um endpoint sub - E , or endpoint sub uh {pause} you know s S ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , basically you would say , based on {disfmarker} in this dialogue that we have which one of the things that they said eh whether it was the entity relations or whatever was the thing that determined what mode it was ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So this is what we wanna learn . Yep . Right . Hmm . Yeah . I don't think , well you have a {disfmarker} can you bring up the function thing ? Um w where is the thing that allows you to sort of", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's on the added variable , isn't it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh function properties , is that it ? Hmm , I guess not . Yeah , that 's", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . OK . And um it so e either it 'll allow us to do everything which I think is unlikely , I think more likely it 'll allow us to do very few of these things and in that case we 'll have to um just write up little things that allow you to um create such CPU 's on your own in the java base format . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do because yeah I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do , it 's Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ah . Well in terms of java base I think it 's basically what you see is what you get in I don't yeah , I would be surprised if it supports anything more than what we have right here .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So Yeah . Yeah . By the way um uh just talking about uh about that general end of things uh is there gonna be data soon from what people say when they 're interacting with the system and so on ? Like , I mean , what kind of questions are being given {disfmarker} being asked ? Cuz {disfmarker} OK . Yeah yeah . OK . OK . Fey , you mean . OK . OK . O OK . OK . I 'm just wondering , because in terms of , you know , I mean uh w the figure {disfmarker} I was thinking about this figure that we talked about , fifty constructions or whatever that 's uh that 's a whole lot of constructions and um you know , I mean one might be f fairly pleased with getting a really good analysis of five maybe ten in a summer so , I mean I know we 're going for sort of a rough and ready . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK . OK . I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} uh I was talking about the , you know , if you wanted to do it really in detail and we don't really need all the detail for what we 're doing right now but anyway in terms of just narrowing that task you know which fifty do I do , I wanna see what people are using , so Well , it will inspire me . Right , sure sure . Right . Yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah . OK . Touche . Good enough .", "speaker": "Grad A" } ]

[ { "content": "Alright , so I 'm - I should read all of these numbers ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Piece of paper ? I could borrow ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so uh i um I don't know whether Ami 's coming or not um but I think we oughta just get started .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Nancy is uh currently in Berkeley but not here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Nancy 's still stick ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Don't know . Anyway", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , so there you go . Anyway , so my idea f for today and we can uh decide that that isn't the right thing to do was to at {disfmarker} spend at least part of the time trying to eh build the influence links , you know which sets of things are uh relevant to which decisions and actually I had uh specific s suggestion to start first with the path ones . The database ones being in some sense less interesting to us although probably have to be done and so to do that so there 's {disfmarker} and the idea was we were gonna do two things", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is your mike on ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ah . Oh right , well . Yeah . We were gonna do two things one of which is just lay out the influence structure of what we think influences what", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's funny .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and then as a uh separate but related task uh particularly Bhaskara and I were going to try to decide what kinds of belief nodes are needed in order to um do what we {disfmarker} what we need to do . Once so but du we should sort of have all of the uh basic design of what influences what done before we decide exactly how to compute it . So I didn't {disfmarker} did you get a chance to look at all {disfmarker} yet ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I looked at some of that stuff .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Great . OK so let 's start with the uh belief - nets , the general influence stuff and then we 'll {disfmarker} then we 'll also at some point break and talk about the techy stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I think one could go there 's I think we can di discuss everything . First of all this I added , I knew from sort of basically this has to be there right ? Um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh are you gonna go there or not ? Yeah , so one i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Given {disfmarker} given uh uh not transverse the castle , the decision is does the person want to go there or is it just", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right , true . Does have to be there . And I 'm sure we 'll find more as we go that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And Hmm ? So Go - there in the first place or not is definitely uh one of the basic ones . We can start with that . Interesting effect . Um Is this basically true or false or maybe we 'll get", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Which one ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "what ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "\" Go there \" .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "m right .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "so there is this question about", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Here we we actually get just probabilities ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "right for each down here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "When we 're {disfmarker} yeah when we 're done . So {disfmarker} so", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the reason it might not be true or false is that we did have this idea of when so it 's , you know uh current @ @ and so forth and so on or not at all ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "right ? And so that a decision would be do we want that so you could {disfmarker} two different things you could do , you could have all those values for Go - there or you could have Go - there be binary and given that you 're going there when .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "When . How .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Why ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So I 'll let", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "we 'll see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I mean it seems that you could um uh it seems that those things would be logically independent like you would wanna have them separate or binary , Go - there and then the {disfmarker} the possibilities of how to go there because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , that 's {disfmarker} let 's start that way .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because , you know it might be easy to figure out that this person is going to need more film eventually from their utterance but it 's much more complex to query when would be the most appropriate time .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Hmm . OK . And so I 've tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user ? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model - A . We should be be clear . But when it comes to sort of writing down when you {disfmarker} when you do these things is it here ? You sort of have to a write the values this can take .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And here I was really uh in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because um {disfmarker} this case it 's pretty simple , but as we will see the other ones um for example if it 's a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "How can I write here that this is something , a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK . Thus is understandable ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Think so .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So here for example .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "You 've s have you seen this before at all Keith , these belief - net things ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no , but I think I 'm following it . So far .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So here is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we had that the user 's budget may influence the outcome of decisions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK , h well I mean how is it different from user finance ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um the finance is sort of here thought of as {disfmarker} as the financial policy a person carries out in his life , he {disfmarker} is he cheap , average , or spendy ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um I didn't come uh maybe a user I don't know , I didn't want to write greediness , but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or cheapness .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Welcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "User thrift .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Welcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Thrift , that 's good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "There it is .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So Keith w what 's behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief - nets for you and stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So this is not just a display , this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we 'll wind up with a functioning belief - net at the other end .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And it 's so simple even I can use it .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Wow , that is simple .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so here was OK , I can think of uh people being cheap , average , or spendy or we can even have a {disfmarker} a finer scale moderately cheap ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Doesn't matter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "doesn't matter . Agree there but here um I wasn't sure what to write in .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Let 's {disfmarker} go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , I mean you 've written in {disfmarker} you 've written in what uh seems to be required like what else is {disfmarker} is do you want ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If that 's permissible then I 'm happy .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well yeah . So here 's {disfmarker} here 's what 's permissible is that you can arrange so that the um the value of that is gonna have to be updated and n it 's not a belief update , right ? It 's {disfmarker} you took some actions , you spent money and stuff , so the update of that is gonna have to be essentially external to the belief - net . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And then what you 're going to need is uh for the things that it influences . Well let 's {disfmarker} first of all let 's see if it does influence anything . And if it does influence anything then you 're gonna need something that converts from the {disfmarker} the number here to something that 's relevant to the decision there . So it could be ra they create different ranges that are relevant for different decisions or whatever {disfmarker} but for the moment this is just a node that is conditioned externally and might influence various things .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yeah {disfmarker} this is where um OK anyways let 's forget it .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well that 's fine . Well anyway , go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , and so this , oh that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "The other thing is that um every time that 's updated beliefs will have to be propagated but then the question is do you {disfmarker} do we wanna propagate beliefs every single time it 's updated or only when we need to ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's a good question . And uh does it have a lazy mode ? I don't remember .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh Well , I mean , in Srini 's thing there was this thing {disfmarker} there was this um option like proper inferences which suggests that uh doesn't happen , automatically .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh right . Yeah . S probably does . Yeah someone has to track that down , but I {disfmarker} but uh And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I think {disfmarker} actually uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I just accidentally Oops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "one of the we w items for the uh user home base uh should be uh essentially non - local . I they 're only there for the day and they don't have a place that they 're staying .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh just uh accidentally erased this , I {disfmarker} I just had values here such as uh um is he s we had in our list we had \" Is he staying in our hotel ? \" , \" Is he staying with friends ? \" , and so forth", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh so we 're OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So it 's clear where w w w where we are right now . So my suggestion is we just pick uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Something down here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "one , you know one uh particular one of the uh well let 's do the first {disfmarker} first one let 's do the one that we sort of already think we did so w that was the {disfmarker} of the endpoint ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . And um Oops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is hmm", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ah ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So it 's true or false ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . No no no , EVA .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Missed that one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What 's the difference between mode and endpoint ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I thought mode , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "although that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um mode was um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , that 's", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mode of transportation ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK . Also true or false .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No , he has he hasn't filled them in yet , is what 's true .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Did I or didn't I ? Ah . Probably nothing done yet , oh I just did it on the upper ones , OK . Makes sense . OK , so this was EVA . Maybe we can think of more things , cross", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Climb , rob .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "climb , emerge", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No no no , these are ju that 's just a point ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well some of those are subsumed by approach .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "this is ju", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Would it be an endpoint if you were crossing over it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The Charles Bridge , you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , would be a f for a given segment . You know , you {disfmarker} y you go {disfmarker} first go the town square", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I eh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I mean , if you go to re you know if you go to Prague or whatever one of your {disfmarker} your key points that you have to do is cross the Charles Bridge and doesn't really matter which way you cross which {disfmarker} where you end up at the end but the part {disfmarker} the good part is walking over it , so .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's subtle , but true . Anyway so let 's just leave it three {disfmarker} with three for now", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm , mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and let 's see if we can get it linked up just to get ourselves started .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , we", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "You 'll see it {disfmarker} you 'll see something comes up immediately , that the reason I wanna do this .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "w well the uh user was uh definitely more likely to enter if he 's a local", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "more likely to view if he 's a tourist um and then of course we had the fact that given the fact that he 's thrifty and there will be admission then we get all these cross um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "We did , but the three things w that {disfmarker} that it contributed to this in fact , the other two aren't up there . so one was the ontology", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We 'll d what type of building is it ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the third thing we talked about was something from the discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What he has mentioned before .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , so this is w Right , so what w I {disfmarker} what we seem to need here , this is why it starts getting into the technical stuff", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "the way we had been designing this , there were three intermediate nodes uh which were the endpoint decision as seen from the uh user model as seen from the ontology and as seen from the discourse . So each of those the way we had it designed , now we can change the design , but the design we had was there was a decision with the same three outcomes uh based on the th those three separate considerations", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so if we wanted to do that would have to put in uh three intermediate nodes", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh we can load it up it you know very simple .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and then what you and I have to talk about is , OK if we 're doing that and they get combined somehow uh how do they get combined ? But the {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're undoubtedly gonna be more things to worry about .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So this was adjusted for this one mode thing .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So that 's w w in our uh in {disfmarker} in Johno 's sort of pictogram everything that could contribute to whether a person wants to enter , view , or approach something .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , it was called mode , so this {disfmarker} this is m mode here means the same as endpoint .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is now this endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , why don't we ch can we change that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We can just rename that , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright . You know , but that was actually , yeah unfortunately that was a um kind of an intermediate versio that 's I don't think what we would currently do .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Can I ask about \" slurred \" and \" angry \" as inputs to this ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} why ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Like they 're either true or false", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The prosody ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and they uh oh I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If the {disfmarker} if the person talking is angry or slurs their speech they might be tired or , you know", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Drunk .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Therefore", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And , you know , possibly uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Less likely to enter .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "some ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "uh I was thinking less likely to view", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But that 's - that seems to , yeah . So {disfmarker} so my advice to do is {disfmarker} is get this down to what we think is actually likely to {disfmarker} to be a {disfmarker} a strong influence .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But yeah , that was what he had in mind .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So let 's think about this {disfmarker} this question of how do we wanna handle {disfmarker} so there 're two separate things . One is {disfmarker} uh at least two . One is how do we want to handle the notion of the ontology now what we talked about , and this is another technical thing Bhaskara , is uh can we arrange so that I think we can so that the belief - net itself has properties and the properties are filled in uh from on ontology items . So the {disfmarker} let 's take the case of the uh this endpoint thing , the notion was that if you had a few key properties like is this a tourist site , you know some kind of landmark is it a place of business uh is it something you physically could enter", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , et cetera . So that there 'd be certain properties that would fit into the decision node and then again as part of the ou outer controlling conditioning of this thing those would be set , so that some somehow someone would find this word , look it up in the ontology , pull out these properties , put it into the belief - net , and then the decision would flow .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Now", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Seems to me that we 've sort of e em embedded a lot , em embedded a lot of these uh things we had in there previously in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some of the other final decisions done here , for example if we would know that this thing is exhibiting something um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it 's exhibiting itself it is a landmark ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "meaning more likely to be viewed", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it is exhibiting pictures or sculptures and stuff like this , then it 's more likely to be entered .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I uh that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's completely right and um I think that 's good , right ? So what {disfmarker} what that says is that we might be able to uh take and in particular so {disfmarker} so the ones we talked about were uh exhibiting and selling", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Accessibility .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "no , accessibility meant", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If it 's closed one probably won't enter . Or if it 's not accessible to a tourist ever the likelihood of that person actually wanting to enter it ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "given that he knows it , of course .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright . So let me suggest this . Uh w could you move those up about halfway . Uh The ones that you th And selling I guess .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , all {disfmarker} all of these if it 's fixing things selling things , or servicing things", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . So here {disfmarker} here 's what it looks like to me . is that you want an intermediate structure which i uh is essentially the or of uh for this purpose of {disfmarker} of uh selling , f fixing , or servicing . So that it uh that is , for certain purposes , it becomes important but for this kind of purpose uh one of these places is quite like the other . Does that seem right ? So we di", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Basic you 're basically just merging those for just the sake of endpoint decision ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "if we Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} well it may be more than endpoint decisions , so the idea would be that you might wanna merge those three", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "These three ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Eh ser s uh selling , fixing , and servicing .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What ex um and so either those is true f or false ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh Uh well it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i here 's where it gets a little tricky .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh from the belief - net point of view it is from another point of view of course it 's interest it 's {disfmarker} it 's important to know what it 's selling or servicing and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So for this decision it 's just uh true or false", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and in th this is a case where the or seems just what you want .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} that if any of those things is true then it 's the kind of place that you uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um more likely to enter .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "are more likely to enter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So you just wanna have them all pointing to a summary thing ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You could , yeah . Yeah , so let 's do that . No no , no eh to {disfmarker} to an inter no , an intermediate node .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "T", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "That 's the p part of the idea , is", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um is {disfmarker} is that the object type node ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I d", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So are they the {disfmarker} is it the kind of object that sells , fixes , or services things ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , o open up object type and let 's see what its values are .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh I just created it , it has none so far .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , well OK first of all it 's not objects , we called them entities , right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And then we have sort of the um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Let 's say I put commercial .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I w I was just gonna commercial action inside where people p", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well couldn't I do {disfmarker} let 's do commercial uh landmark and", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And where was the accessible , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well accessible I think is different cuz that 's tempor that {disfmarker} that varies temporally ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "whereas this is a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What would a hotel fall under ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I would call that a service , but {disfmarker} but I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I mean in terms of entity type ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Say w w well it 's co I would s a a again for this purpose I think it 's commercial . Someplace you want to go in to do some kind of business .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um what does the underscore - T at the end of each of those things signify ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um things . So places that service things sell things or fix things and pe places that e exhibit things .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK . OK . That also points to entity type I guess .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So we 're deriving um this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this feature of whether the {disfmarker} the main action at this place happens inside or outside or what we 're deriving that from what kind of activity is done there ? Couldn't you have it as just a primitive feature of the entity ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well you could , that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a choice .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean it seems like that 's much more reliable cuz you could have outdoor places that sell things and you know indoor places that do something else", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , the problem with it is that it sort of putting in a feature just for one decision ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "now w we may wind up having to do that this i anyway , this i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "at a mental level that 's what we we 're gonna have to sort out .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So , you know what does this look like , what are {disfmarker} what are uh intermediate things that are worth computing , what are the features we need in order to make all these decisions", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and what 's the best way to organize this so that um it 's clean and {disfmarker} and consistent and all that sort of stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . I 'm just thinking about how people , human beings who know about places and places to go and so on would store this and it would probably {disfmarker} you wouldn't just sort of remember that they sell stuff and then deduce from that that it must be going on inside or something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I think an entity maybe should be regard as a vector of several possible things , it can either em do s do sell things , fix things , service things , exhibit things , it can be a landmark at the same time as doing these things ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it 's not either or mmm certainly a place can be a hotel and a famous site .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Many come to mind . Things can be generally um a landmark and be accessible . IE a {disfmarker} a castle or can be a landmark a or not accessible , some statue", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know can go inside .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK . Anyway so let me suggest you do something else . Uh which is to get rid {disfmarker} get rid of that l long link between who {disfmarker} the user and the endpoint .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Could we just move it like this ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No no , I don't want the link there at all .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Because what we 're gonna want is an intermediate thing which is uh the endpoint decisi the endpoint decision based o on the user models , so what we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} what we talked about is three separate endpoint decisions , so let 's make a new node", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Just as a suggestion maybe you could \" save as \" to keep your old one nice and clean and so you can mess with this one .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm . The old one was not that not that important , I think but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , well , not a big deal then .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's do it then .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the {disfmarker} Isn't there a \" save as \" inside of java base ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But I can just take this", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "copy it somewhere else . This was user something", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well this was", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh let 's p put it this {disfmarker} let 's do endpoint underbar - U .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "end point ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "i endpoint , e end poi this is sa", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "it 's the endpoint", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Gotcha , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "let 's say underbar - U , so that 's the endpoint decision uh as seen through the", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "As related from the user model .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . So let 's {disfmarker} let 's actually yeah so lin you can link that up to the", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Should I rename this {pause} too ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh yeah , so that , I guess that 's endpoint uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": " It 's underscore - E .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "underscore - E for entity , and we may change all this , but . Right . And", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , shouldn't I be able to move them all ? No . Or {disfmarker} ? Can I ? Where ? What ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh I d eh I don't know . Actually , I guess the easiest thing would move {disfmarker} mo move the endpoint , well , go ahead . Just do whatever .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Wasn't this possible ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I think you have to be in move mode before", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Good . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So now we 're looking for user related things that um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . And uh maybe th maybe it 's just one who is the user , I don't know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe there 's more .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well if he 's usi if he 's in a car right now what was that people with Harry drove the car into the cafe", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Never mind . Uh anyway , this is crude . Now but the {disfmarker} now so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but then the question is uh so {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and we assume that some of these properties would come indirectly through an ontology , but then we had this third idea of input from the discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} should we finish this ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean but surely the user interests", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The user thrift , the user budget .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , maybe , I again , I d well , OK , put em in but what we 're gonna wanna do is actually uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Here this was one of my problems we have the user interest is a {disfmarker} is a vector of five hundred values , so um That 's from the user model ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh you mean level of interest ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "mm - hmm , no not levels of interest but things you can be interested in .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "somebody else has built this user model .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh I see ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Gothic churches versus Baroque townhouses versus", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "right . So why is it oh it , so it 's like a vector of five hundred one 's or zero 's ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yea - n is that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Like for each thing are we {disfmarker} are you interested in it or not ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yeah uh I {disfmarker} I think", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So uh you cou and so here let me give you two ways to handle that . Alright ? One is um you could ignore it . But the other thing you could do is have an {disfmarker} and this will give you the flavor of the {disfmarker} of what you could have a node that 's {disfmarker} that was a measure of the match between the object 's feature , you know , the match between the object the entity , I 'm sorry and the user .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So you could have a k a \" fit \" node and again that would have to be computed by someone else", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but uh so that uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just as a mental note uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's all .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} and should we say that this interests eh affects the likelihood of {disfmarker} of entering ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , we could .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And also if it 's an expensive place to enter , this may also", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Budget .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "User schedule . \" Do I have time to go in and climb all the way to the top of the Koelner Dome {comment} or do I just have to {disfmarker} \" \" time to take a picture of the outside ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Schedule ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It seems like everything in a user model a affects {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well that 's what we don't wanna do , see that {disfmarker} se cuz then we get into huge combinatorics and stuff like that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "an", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Cuz if the , I mean , and if the user is tired , the user state ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right , it would affect stuff , but I can't see why e anything w everything in the model wouldn't be", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} we can't do that , so we we 're gonna have to", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but this is a good discussion , we 're gonna have to somehow figure out uh some way to encapsulate that uh so if there 's some general notion of for example the uh relation to the time to do this to the amount of time the guy has or something like that is {disfmarker} is the uh compatibility with his current state , so that 's what you 'd have to do , you 'd have to get it down to something which uh was itself relatively compact , so it could be compatibility with his current state which would include his money and his time and {disfmarker} and his energy", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , just seems like it 'd push the problem back a level .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It does .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No but , it 's more than that , like the {disfmarker} the more sort of you break it up like because if you have everything pointing to one node it 's like exponential whereas if you like keep breaking it up more and more it 's not exponential anymore .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So it yeah , there are two advantages . That 's tha there 's one technical one", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Sh - sh yeah , {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and the other is it {disfmarker} it gets used", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "S so we 'd basically be doing subgrouping ? Subgrouping , basically into mo", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so basically make it more tree like going backwards ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . But it {disfmarker} there 's two advantages , one is the technical one that you don't wind up with such big exponential uh CBT 's ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Bhaskara ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "the other is it can be {disfmarker} it presumably can be used for multiple decisions .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So that if you have this idea of the compatibility with the requirements of an action to the state of the user one could well imagine that that was u", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "not only is it sim is it cleaner to compute it separately but it could be that it 's used in multiple places . Anyway th so in general this is the design , this is really design problem .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , you 've got a signal , a d set of decisions um how do we do this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What do I have under user state anyhow cuz I named that already something . Oh that 's tired , fresh , yeah . Maybe should be renamed into physical state .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Or fat user fatigue even .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's with a \" G \" ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": " Whatever .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Then we can make a user state .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What 's th what we 're talking about is compatibility . Uh or something , I don't know , but .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess the {disfmarker} the question uh is It 's hard for me to imagine how everything wouldn't just contribute to user state again . Or user compatibility .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh but the thing is that we uh uh we had some things that uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That don't .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "that don't", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The user interests and the user who {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who the user is are completely apart from the fact whether he is tired broke", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure , but other {disfmarker} I thought though the node we 're creating right now is user compatibility to the current action , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "the right", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Seems like everything in the user model would contribute to whether or not the user was compatible with something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh maybe not . I mean the {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} the issue is um would Even if it was true in some abstract general sense it might not be true in terms of the information we actually had and can make use of . And anyway we 're gonna have to find some way to cl uh get this sufficiently simple to make it feasible .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Maybe um if we look at the {disfmarker} if we split it up again into sort of um if we look at the uh the endpoint again we {disfmarker} we said that for each of these things there are certain preconditions so you can only enter a place if you are not too tired to do so and also eh have the money to do so if it costs something so if you can afford it and perform it is preconditions . Viewing usually is cheap or free .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is that always true ? I don't know .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , with the way we 're defining it I think yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "W w but that eh viewing it without ent yeah view w with our definition of view it 's free cuz you", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And so is approaching .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well what about the Grand Canyon , right ? No , never mind . I mean are there {disfmarker} are there large things that you would have to pay to get up close to like , I mean never mind , not in the current {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No we have to enter the park .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Eh almost by definition um paying involves entering ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "ge going through some", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Right , sure .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Uh So let me suggest we switch to another one , I mean clearly there 's more work to be done on this", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but I think it 's gonna be more instructive to {disfmarker} to think about uh other decisions that we need to make in path land . And what they 're gonna look like .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So you can save this one as and open up the old one , right and {disfmarker} and then everything would be clean . You could do it again .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why , I think it 's worth saving this one but I think I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to keep this one", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "cuz I wanna see if {disfmarker} if we 're gonna reuse any of this stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um so this might be What next ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well you tell me , so in terms of the uh planner what 's {disfmarker} what 's a good one to do ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} th this go there or not I think is a good one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is a very basic one . So what makes things more likely that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the fir see the first thing is , getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So Keith this is gonna get into your world because uh we 're gonna want to know you know , which constructions indicate various of these properties", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "s and so I {disfmarker} I don't yet know how to do this , I guess we 're gonna wind up pulling out uh discourse properties like we have object properties and we don't know what they are yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that the Go - there decision will have a node from uh discourse , and I guess why don't we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Of {disfmarker} of course .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Identified that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and so again re that 's completely correct , we have the user model , the situation model here , we don't have the discourse model here yet . Much the same way as we didn't {disfmarker} we don't have the ontology here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting , selling , and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Really .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So in some sense it 's {disfmarker} it 's there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But the discourse we don't have it represented at all yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um This be specific for second year ? Um And {disfmarker} and we probably will have uh something like a discourse for endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But if we do it 'll have the three values .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "It 'll have the EVA values if {disfmarker} if we have it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK just for starters and here discourse um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "For Go - there , probably is true and false , let 's say . That 's what we talked about .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um well , I think um we 're looking at the {disfmarker} the little data that we have , so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they wanna go there .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So this should sort of push it in one direction", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And sometimes um people say where is it", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because they wanna know where it is but in most cases they probably", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that doesn't change the fact that you 're {disfmarker} you want these two values .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , true . So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it 's either {pause} yep , yay , A , or nay . Yeah . OK ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And they 'll be a y uh , a user Go - there and maybe that 's all , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Situation Go - there , I mean , because it 's {disfmarker} whether it 's open or not .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That definitely interes", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But that now that kind of um what 's the word", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "um the {disfmarker} that interacts with the uh EVA thing if they just wanna view it then it 's fine to go there when it 's closed whereas if they want to um", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's where it starts getting to be uh uh essentially more interesting , so what uh Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they 're only going to view it then it doesn't matter whether it 's closed or not", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "in terms of uh uh you know , whether {disfmarker} whether you wanna go there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The time of day ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right I {disfmarker} well , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It does matter though if there 's like a strike or riot or something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right . So yeah , that 's what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this {disfmarker} that node by itself wouldn't distinguish", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well i i it can have di various values . Yeah , but we eh you {disfmarker} you 're right it might not be enough .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean , see I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking that any node that begins with \" Go - there \" is either gonna be true or false .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , what {disfmarker} Whoops .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah . I see that could be .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Also , that node , I mean the Go - there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "you know , there 's different things , the strikes and the", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Could be . Yeah . N", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Like situation traffic and so on .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , the time of day .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So {disfmarker} so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that uh there sh should be a link , and this is where things are gonna get very messy from the endpoint uh decision", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess the final", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "maybe the t they 're final re and , I guess the very bottom endpoint decision uh to the Go - there node . And I {disfmarker} don't worry about layout ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean then we 'll go {disfmarker} we 'll go nuts but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Maybe we could um have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go - there S node sort of fed into ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Could be , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right . Because that 's what we , I mean that 's why this situation comes up .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well the Go - there , actually the Endpoint node could feed {disfmarker} feed into the Go - there S That 's right ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so the Endpoint node ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "make that up t t to the Go - there then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and again we 'll have to do layout at some point , but something like that . Now it 's gonna be important not to have loops by the way . Uh really important in {disfmarker} in the belief worl net world not to have loops", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I was just gonna", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "How long does it take you to {disfmarker} to compute uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No it 's much worse than that . It {disfmarker} if i loo it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's not def i it 's not well defined if you 're there are loops ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} things don't converge , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "uh R recursive action ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there isn't uh OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh but this isn't , this is {disfmarker} this line is just coming from over here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , no it 's not a loop yet , I 'm just saying we {disfmarker} we , in no , in", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , but the good thing is we {disfmarker} we could have loopy belief propagation which {vocalsound} we all love .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . OK , so anyway , so that 's another decision . Uh what 's {disfmarker} what 's another decision you like ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , these have no parents yet , but I guess that sort of doesn't matter . Right ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , the idea is that you go there , you go comes from something about the user from something about the situation and the uh the discourse is {disfmarker} is a mystery .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean this is sort of This comes from traffic and so forth , yeah . Sh - Should we just make some", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure , if you want .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um if there 's parking maybe Mmm Oh who cares . OK . And if he has seen it already or not and so forth ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Um and discourse is something that sort of should we make a Keith note here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That sort of comes from Keith .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just sort of so we don't forget . Oops . Have to get used to this . OK , whoops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Um actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And then also the discourse endpoint , I {disfmarker} I guess endpoint sub - D is {disfmarker} if you wanna make it consistent .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Wh - ah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Um actually is this the {disfmarker} the right way to have it where um go there from the user and go there from the situation just sort of don't know about each other but they both feed the go there decision because isn't the , I mean", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think so . S", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh , hmm OK . But that still allows for the possibility of the {disfmarker} of the user model affecting our decision about whether a strike is the sort of thing which is going to keep this user away from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Maybe not , a Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} all that {disfmarker} that kind of decision making happens at the Go - there node .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh y you {disfmarker} yeah you {disfmarker} i you {disfmarker} if you needed to do that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh . If you needed it to do that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But uh OK I was just thinking I guess maybe I 'm conflating that user node with possible {disfmarker} possible asking of the user", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "you know hey there 's a strike on , uh does that affect whether or not you wanna go or something", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah . Good point , I don't {disfmarker} I don't know how we 're going to {disfmarker} t uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or Yeah , so that might not come out of a user model but , you know , directly out of interaction .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Uh I gu yes my curr you know , don't yeah yeah yeah that 's enough .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh My current idea on that would be that each of these decision nodes has questions associated with it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And the question wouldn't itself be one of these conditional things", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know , given that you know there 's a strike do you still wanna go ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But uh if you told him a bunch of stuff , then you would ask him do you wanna go ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I think trying to formulate the conditional question , that sounds too much .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right , right . Yeah . Right , sure , OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "To me .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright , but let me {disfmarker} let {disfmarker} let 's stay with this a minute", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "because I want to do a little bit of organization . Before we get more into details . The organization is going to be that uh the flavor of what 's going on is going to be that uh as we s e sort of going to this detail indeed Keith is going to {disfmarker} to worry about the various constructions that people might use", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and Johno has committed himself to being the parser wizard ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so what 's going to happen is that eventually like by the time he graduates , OK uh they 'll be some sort of system which is able to take the discourse in context and have outputs that can feed the rest of belief - net . I j wa I {disfmarker} I assume everybody knows that , I just wanna you know , get closure that that 'll be the game then ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so the semantics that you 'll get out of the discourse will be of values that go into the various discourse - based decision nodes . And now some of those will get fancier like mode of transportation and stuff so it isn't by any means uh necessarily a simple thing that you want out . So uh if there is an and there is mode of transportation", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And it there 's a sort of also a split if you loo if you blow this up and look at it in more detail there 's something that comes from the discourse in terms of what was actually just said what 's the utterance go giving us", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and then what 's the discourse history give us .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , well that , well , we 'll have to decide uh how much of th where that goes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's uh two things then .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "an and it 's not clear yet . I mean it could be those are two separate things , it could be that the discourse gadget itself integrates em as {disfmarker} which would be my guess that you 'd have to do see in order to do reference and stuff like that um you 've gotta have both the current discourse and the context to say I wanna go back there ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "wow , what does that mean and uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Now . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Alright . So", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But is th is this picture that 's emerging here just my wish that you have noticed already for symmetry or is it that we get for each {disfmarker} each decision on the very bottom we sort of get the sub - E , sub - D , sub - U and maybe a sub - O {disfmarker} \" O \" for \" ontology \" um meta node", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but it might just", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "It could be .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "could be", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is getting into the thing I wanna talk about next ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so this", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "which is s if that 's true uh how do we wanna combine those ? O or when it 's true ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but this eh w wou wou would be nice though that , you know , we only have at most four at the moment um arrows going f to each of the uh bottom decisions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And four you {disfmarker} we can handle .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It 's too much ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well i i it see i if it 's fou if it 's four things and each of them has four values it turns out to be a big CPT , it 's not s completely impossi I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not beyond what the system could solve but it 's probably beyond what we could actually uh write down . or learn .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right , true .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh but , you know it 's four to the fourth . It 's pretty big . Uh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two fifty - six ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "is that what that", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it 's and I don't think it 's gonna g e I don't think it 'll get worse than that by the way , so le that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a good", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but four {disfmarker} didn't we decide that all of these had true or false ? So is {disfmarker} it 's four", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh for go there , but not f but not for {disfmarker} the other one 's three values for endpoint already .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean you need actually three to the five because uh well I mean if {disfmarker} if it has four inputs and then it itself has three values", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so I mean it can get big fast .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um for endpoint ? No it 's {disfmarker} it 's sh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "EV - it 's the EVA .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah , down here , but this one only has two .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No it still has three ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Since ta they will still have three .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "EVA .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Each {disfmarker} so you 're uh uh from each point of view you 're making the same decision .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So from the point of view of the ob of the entity", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Want to view that , yeah yeah . C sl", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker} and also , I mean , the other places where , like for example consider endpoint view , it has inputs coming from user budget , user thrift", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so even", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Those are not necessarily binary . S so we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna have to use some t care in the knowledge engineering to not have this explode . And in fact I think it doesn't in the sense that um Read it , you know actually with the underlying semantics and stuff I think it isn't like you have two hundred and fifty - six different uh ways of {disfmarker} of thinking about whether this user wants to go to some place . Alright . So we {disfmarker} we just have to figure out what the regularities are and and code them . But um What I was gonna suggest next is maybe we wanna work on this a little longer but I do want to also talk about the thing that we started into now of uh well it 's all fine to say all these arrows come into the si same place what rule of combination is used there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So th yes they {disfmarker} so these things all affect it ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "how do they affect it ? And belief - nets have their own beliefs about uh what are good ways to do that . So is it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clearer n clear enough what the issue is ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? So do we wanna switch that now or we wanna do some more of this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "R basically w we just need to sort of in order to get some closure on this figure out how we 're gonna get this picture sort of uh completely messy .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , here {disfmarker} he here 's one of the things that {disfmarker} that I th you sh you {disfmarker} no , I don't know how easy it is to do this in the interface but you {disfmarker} it would be great if you could actually just display at a given time uh all the things that you pick up , you click on \" endpoint \" , OK and everything else fades", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and you just see the links that are relevant to that . And I does anybody remember the GUI on this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh d I would almost say the other way to do that would be to open u or make you know N - many belief - nets and then open them every time you wanted to look at a different one", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "vers cuz uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's probably pretty easy do it {disfmarker} to do it in HTML , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "HTML ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah I have each of these thing each of the end belief - nets be {disfmarker} be a page and then you click on the thing and then li consider that it 's respective ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well the b", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "anyway so uh it clear that even with this if we put in all the arrows nobody is gonna be able to read the diagram .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright , so e we have to figure out some eh eh uh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} let me consi suggest that 's a s not a first - order consideration , we have two first - order considerations which is what are the uh influences A , A , and B how do they get combined mathematically , how do we display them is an issue , but um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I don't , yeah I just don't think this has been designed to support something like that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , it might soon , if this is gonna be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to uh start modifying it for our purposes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , and Um I {disfmarker} that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into , but um we have to know what we want first . OK , so why don't you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what {disfmarker} what the choices might be for these ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So Ah , sorry . I guess that 's", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You can technically wear that as you 're talking .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's right , I guess I can do that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Darn .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Put it in your , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess this board works fine . So um recall the basic problem which is that um you have a belief - net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node . Right ? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it 's so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty - three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down . So what um helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set , right ? These are all like saying EV or A , right ? So it 's not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we wanna just take a combination of {disfmarker} we wanna view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we wanna sort of combine their decisions and create you know , um sorta weighted combination .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm . ROVER , the ROVER decision .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "The what decision ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "ROVER . All of their outputs combined to make a decision .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So the problem is to specify the uh so the conditional property of this given all those , right ? That 's the way belief - nets are defined , like each node given its parents , right ? So um that 's what we want , we want for example P of um let 's call this guy Y and let 's call these X - one , X - two XN , right . So we want probability that Y equals , you know , for example um E given that these guys are I 'll just refer to this as like X um hat or something , uh the co like all of them ? Given that for example the data says you know , A , V , A , E , or something right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So we would like to do this kind of combination .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Alright , so um Is that uh I {disfmarker} yeah , I just wanna make sure everybody is with us before he goes on .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think so , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's cl e is {disfmarker} is it clear what he wants to compute ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . So , right . So Basically um {vocalsound} what we don't wanna do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E , s give a number", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because that 's obviously not desirable . What we wanna do is find some principled way of um saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution , so we want it to um add up to one , right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So those are the two things that we uh need . So what uh I guess , what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we , you know view these guys as voting and we just take the uh we essentially take um averages , right ? So for example here two people have voted for A , one has voted for V , and one has voted for E , so we could say that the probabilities are , you know , probability of being E is one over four , because one person voted for E out of four and similarly , probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is um two out of four and probability of V is one out of four . Right ? So that 's step {disfmarker} that 's the uh yeah that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the basic uh thing . Now", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is that all OK ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And that one outcome , that 's", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "it 's X {disfmarker} X - one voted for A X - two voted for V", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and so forth ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Y right . Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things , which may or may not be a good assumption ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's the outcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So step two is um right . So we 've assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know , some w be that for example , what the um the actual the uh verbal content of what the person said , like what uh what might be uh somehow more uh important than the uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "X - one matters more i than X - two or", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . Sure , so we don't wanna like give them all equal weight so currently we 've been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by uh W - one , W - two , W - three , and W - four", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each um X - hat , we just need that the W 's sum to one . So they can be for example , you know you {disfmarker} you could have point one , point three , point two , and point four , say .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And that 'd be one . So that um also seems to work fine . And uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So I jus just to make sure I understand this , so in this case um we would still compute the average ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You 'd compute the weighted average , so the probability of E would be uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} so it 'd be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be uh {comment} W one times {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Point three .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or A or {disfmarker} let 's see , one full quarter times point one", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Not one quarter ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so these numbers have been replaced with point one , point three , point two , and point four . So you can view these as gone .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Probability of", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK . So , alright . So this is uh step two . So the next possibility is that um we 've given just a single weight to each expert , right , whereas it might be the case that um in certain situations one of the experts is more uh reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable . So the way this is handled is by what 's called a mixture of experts , so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called \" H \" , OK ? This is a hidden variable . And what this is is it gets its input from X - one , X - two , X - three , and X - four , and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation . Right ? And then these guys all come here . OK . So this is sightly uh more complicated . So what 's going on is that um this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these isn't likely to be more reliable or most reliable . So H produces some you know , it produces a number , either one , two , three , or four , in our situation , right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it 's two , and then he just selects the uh thing . That 's all there is to say , I guess about it . Right , so you can have a mixture that", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs . It 's driving how the other four are interpreted . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So H passes a vector on to the next node ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It could .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It could ? A vector of the weights as the se", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it could", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well a vector with three zero 's and one one , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh it 's basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it 's in or which one of the weighting systems", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right , so I mean the way you desc", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "W I was just , if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too , couldn't you ? OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha , beta , whatever , or is the {disfmarker} that 's determined by what the experts are saying , like the type of situ OK . Hmm . OK . OK . I mean It {disfmarker} it just seems that like without that {disfmarker} that outside input that you 've got a situation where , you know , like if {disfmarker} if uh X - one says no , you know , a low value coming out of X - on or i if X - one says no then ignore X - one , you know , I mean that seems like that 'd be weird ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , well could be things like if X - two and X - three say yes then i ignore X - one also .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? Oh , OK . OK . Alright , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh The situations that H has , are they built into the net or OK , so they {disfmarker} they could either be hand coded or learned or OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Based on training data , OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations . Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um Well , I mean to learn them we need data , where are we gonna get data ? Well I mean we need data with people intentions , right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Which is slightly tricky . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But what 's the data about like , are we able to get these nodes from the data ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Like how thrifty the user is , or do we have access to that ? Mm - hmm . Oh right . Oh good . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that 's my question , like how do we {disfmarker} I mean , how do we have data about something like um um endpoint sub - E , or endpoint sub uh {pause} you know s S ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , basically you would say , based on {disfmarker} in this dialogue that we have which one of the things that they said eh whether it was the entity relations or whatever was the thing that determined what mode it was ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So this is what we wanna learn . Yep . Right . Hmm . Yeah . I don't think , well you have a {disfmarker} can you bring up the function thing ? Um w where is the thing that allows you to sort of", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's on the added variable , isn't it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh function properties , is that it ? Hmm , I guess not . Yeah , that 's", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . OK . And um it so e either it 'll allow us to do everything which I think is unlikely , I think more likely it 'll allow us to do very few of these things and in that case we 'll have to um just write up little things that allow you to um create such CPU 's on your own in the java base format . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do because yeah I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do , it 's Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ah . Well in terms of java base I think it 's basically what you see is what you get in I don't yeah , I would be surprised if it supports anything more than what we have right here .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So Yeah . Yeah . By the way um uh just talking about uh about that general end of things uh is there gonna be data soon from what people say when they 're interacting with the system and so on ? Like , I mean , what kind of questions are being given {disfmarker} being asked ? Cuz {disfmarker} OK . Yeah yeah . OK . OK . Fey , you mean . OK . OK . O OK . OK . I 'm just wondering , because in terms of , you know , I mean uh w the figure {disfmarker} I was thinking about this figure that we talked about , fifty constructions or whatever that 's uh that 's a whole lot of constructions and um you know , I mean one might be f fairly pleased with getting a really good analysis of five maybe ten in a summer so , I mean I know we 're going for sort of a rough and ready . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK . OK . I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} uh I was talking about the , you know , if you wanted to do it really in detail and we don't really need all the detail for what we 're doing right now but anyway in terms of just narrowing that task you know which fifty do I do , I wanna see what people are using , so Well , it will inspire me . Right , sure sure . Right . Yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah . OK . Touche . Good enough .", "speaker": "Grad A" } ]

[ { "content": "Alright , so I 'm - I should read all of these numbers ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Piece of paper ? I could borrow ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so uh i um I don't know whether Ami 's coming or not um but I think we oughta just get started .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Nancy is uh currently in Berkeley but not here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Nancy 's still stick ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Don't know . Anyway", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , so there you go . Anyway , so my idea f for today and we can uh decide that that isn't the right thing to do was to at {disfmarker} spend at least part of the time trying to eh build the influence links , you know which sets of things are uh relevant to which decisions and actually I had uh specific s suggestion to start first with the path ones . The database ones being in some sense less interesting to us although probably have to be done and so to do that so there 's {disfmarker} and the idea was we were gonna do two things", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is your mike on ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ah . Oh right , well . Yeah . We were gonna do two things one of which is just lay out the influence structure of what we think influences what", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's funny .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and then as a uh separate but related task uh particularly Bhaskara and I were going to try to decide what kinds of belief nodes are needed in order to um do what we {disfmarker} what we need to do . Once so but du we should sort of have all of the uh basic design of what influences what done before we decide exactly how to compute it . So I didn't {disfmarker} did you get a chance to look at all {disfmarker} yet ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I looked at some of that stuff .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Great . OK so let 's start with the uh belief - nets , the general influence stuff and then we 'll {disfmarker} then we 'll also at some point break and talk about the techy stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I think one could go there 's I think we can di discuss everything . First of all this I added , I knew from sort of basically this has to be there right ? Um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh are you gonna go there or not ? Yeah , so one i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Given {disfmarker} given uh uh not transverse the castle , the decision is does the person want to go there or is it just", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right , true . Does have to be there . And I 'm sure we 'll find more as we go that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And Hmm ? So Go - there in the first place or not is definitely uh one of the basic ones . We can start with that . Interesting effect . Um Is this basically true or false or maybe we 'll get", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Which one ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "what ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "\" Go there \" .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "m right .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "so there is this question about", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Here we we actually get just probabilities ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "right for each down here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "When we 're {disfmarker} yeah when we 're done . So {disfmarker} so", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the reason it might not be true or false is that we did have this idea of when so it 's , you know uh current @ @ and so forth and so on or not at all ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "right ? And so that a decision would be do we want that so you could {disfmarker} two different things you could do , you could have all those values for Go - there or you could have Go - there be binary and given that you 're going there when .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "When . How .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Why ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So I 'll let", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "we 'll see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I mean it seems that you could um uh it seems that those things would be logically independent like you would wanna have them separate or binary , Go - there and then the {disfmarker} the possibilities of how to go there because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , that 's {disfmarker} let 's start that way .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because , you know it might be easy to figure out that this person is going to need more film eventually from their utterance but it 's much more complex to query when would be the most appropriate time .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Hmm . OK . And so I 've tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user ? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model - A . We should be be clear . But when it comes to sort of writing down when you {disfmarker} when you do these things is it here ? You sort of have to a write the values this can take .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And here I was really uh in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because um {disfmarker} this case it 's pretty simple , but as we will see the other ones um for example if it 's a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "How can I write here that this is something , a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK . Thus is understandable ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Think so .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So here for example .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "You 've s have you seen this before at all Keith , these belief - net things ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no , but I think I 'm following it . So far .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So here is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we had that the user 's budget may influence the outcome of decisions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK , h well I mean how is it different from user finance ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um the finance is sort of here thought of as {disfmarker} as the financial policy a person carries out in his life , he {disfmarker} is he cheap , average , or spendy ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um I didn't come uh maybe a user I don't know , I didn't want to write greediness , but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or cheapness .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Welcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "User thrift .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Welcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Thrift , that 's good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "There it is .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So Keith w what 's behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief - nets for you and stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So this is not just a display , this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we 'll wind up with a functioning belief - net at the other end .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And it 's so simple even I can use it .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Wow , that is simple .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so here was OK , I can think of uh people being cheap , average , or spendy or we can even have a {disfmarker} a finer scale moderately cheap ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Doesn't matter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "doesn't matter . Agree there but here um I wasn't sure what to write in .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Let 's {disfmarker} go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , I mean you 've written in {disfmarker} you 've written in what uh seems to be required like what else is {disfmarker} is do you want ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If that 's permissible then I 'm happy .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well yeah . So here 's {disfmarker} here 's what 's permissible is that you can arrange so that the um the value of that is gonna have to be updated and n it 's not a belief update , right ? It 's {disfmarker} you took some actions , you spent money and stuff , so the update of that is gonna have to be essentially external to the belief - net . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And then what you 're going to need is uh for the things that it influences . Well let 's {disfmarker} first of all let 's see if it does influence anything . And if it does influence anything then you 're gonna need something that converts from the {disfmarker} the number here to something that 's relevant to the decision there . So it could be ra they create different ranges that are relevant for different decisions or whatever {disfmarker} but for the moment this is just a node that is conditioned externally and might influence various things .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yeah {disfmarker} this is where um OK anyways let 's forget it .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well that 's fine . Well anyway , go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , and so this , oh that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "The other thing is that um every time that 's updated beliefs will have to be propagated but then the question is do you {disfmarker} do we wanna propagate beliefs every single time it 's updated or only when we need to ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's a good question . And uh does it have a lazy mode ? I don't remember .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh Well , I mean , in Srini 's thing there was this thing {disfmarker} there was this um option like proper inferences which suggests that uh doesn't happen , automatically .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh right . Yeah . S probably does . Yeah someone has to track that down , but I {disfmarker} but uh And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I think {disfmarker} actually uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I just accidentally Oops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "one of the we w items for the uh user home base uh should be uh essentially non - local . I they 're only there for the day and they don't have a place that they 're staying .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh just uh accidentally erased this , I {disfmarker} I just had values here such as uh um is he s we had in our list we had \" Is he staying in our hotel ? \" , \" Is he staying with friends ? \" , and so forth", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh so we 're OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So it 's clear where w w w where we are right now . So my suggestion is we just pick uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Something down here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "one , you know one uh particular one of the uh well let 's do the first {disfmarker} first one let 's do the one that we sort of already think we did so w that was the {disfmarker} of the endpoint ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . And um Oops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is hmm", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ah ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So it 's true or false ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . No no no , EVA .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Missed that one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What 's the difference between mode and endpoint ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I thought mode , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "although that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um mode was um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , that 's", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mode of transportation ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK . Also true or false .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No , he has he hasn't filled them in yet , is what 's true .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Did I or didn't I ? Ah . Probably nothing done yet , oh I just did it on the upper ones , OK . Makes sense . OK , so this was EVA . Maybe we can think of more things , cross", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Climb , rob .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "climb , emerge", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No no no , these are ju that 's just a point ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well some of those are subsumed by approach .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "this is ju", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Would it be an endpoint if you were crossing over it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The Charles Bridge , you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , would be a f for a given segment . You know , you {disfmarker} y you go {disfmarker} first go the town square", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I eh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I mean , if you go to re you know if you go to Prague or whatever one of your {disfmarker} your key points that you have to do is cross the Charles Bridge and doesn't really matter which way you cross which {disfmarker} where you end up at the end but the part {disfmarker} the good part is walking over it , so .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's subtle , but true . Anyway so let 's just leave it three {disfmarker} with three for now", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm , mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and let 's see if we can get it linked up just to get ourselves started .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , we", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "You 'll see it {disfmarker} you 'll see something comes up immediately , that the reason I wanna do this .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "w well the uh user was uh definitely more likely to enter if he 's a local", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "more likely to view if he 's a tourist um and then of course we had the fact that given the fact that he 's thrifty and there will be admission then we get all these cross um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "We did , but the three things w that {disfmarker} that it contributed to this in fact , the other two aren't up there . so one was the ontology", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We 'll d what type of building is it ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the third thing we talked about was something from the discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What he has mentioned before .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , so this is w Right , so what w I {disfmarker} what we seem to need here , this is why it starts getting into the technical stuff", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "the way we had been designing this , there were three intermediate nodes uh which were the endpoint decision as seen from the uh user model as seen from the ontology and as seen from the discourse . So each of those the way we had it designed , now we can change the design , but the design we had was there was a decision with the same three outcomes uh based on the th those three separate considerations", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so if we wanted to do that would have to put in uh three intermediate nodes", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh we can load it up it you know very simple .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and then what you and I have to talk about is , OK if we 're doing that and they get combined somehow uh how do they get combined ? But the {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're undoubtedly gonna be more things to worry about .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So this was adjusted for this one mode thing .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So that 's w w in our uh in {disfmarker} in Johno 's sort of pictogram everything that could contribute to whether a person wants to enter , view , or approach something .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , it was called mode , so this {disfmarker} this is m mode here means the same as endpoint .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is now this endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , why don't we ch can we change that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We can just rename that , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright . You know , but that was actually , yeah unfortunately that was a um kind of an intermediate versio that 's I don't think what we would currently do .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Can I ask about \" slurred \" and \" angry \" as inputs to this ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} why ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Like they 're either true or false", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The prosody ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and they uh oh I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If the {disfmarker} if the person talking is angry or slurs their speech they might be tired or , you know", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Drunk .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Therefore", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And , you know , possibly uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Less likely to enter .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "some ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "uh I was thinking less likely to view", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But that 's - that seems to , yeah . So {disfmarker} so my advice to do is {disfmarker} is get this down to what we think is actually likely to {disfmarker} to be a {disfmarker} a strong influence .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But yeah , that was what he had in mind .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So let 's think about this {disfmarker} this question of how do we wanna handle {disfmarker} so there 're two separate things . One is {disfmarker} uh at least two . One is how do we want to handle the notion of the ontology now what we talked about , and this is another technical thing Bhaskara , is uh can we arrange so that I think we can so that the belief - net itself has properties and the properties are filled in uh from on ontology items . So the {disfmarker} let 's take the case of the uh this endpoint thing , the notion was that if you had a few key properties like is this a tourist site , you know some kind of landmark is it a place of business uh is it something you physically could enter", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , et cetera . So that there 'd be certain properties that would fit into the decision node and then again as part of the ou outer controlling conditioning of this thing those would be set , so that some somehow someone would find this word , look it up in the ontology , pull out these properties , put it into the belief - net , and then the decision would flow .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Now", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Seems to me that we 've sort of e em embedded a lot , em embedded a lot of these uh things we had in there previously in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some of the other final decisions done here , for example if we would know that this thing is exhibiting something um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it 's exhibiting itself it is a landmark ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "meaning more likely to be viewed", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it is exhibiting pictures or sculptures and stuff like this , then it 's more likely to be entered .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I uh that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's completely right and um I think that 's good , right ? So what {disfmarker} what that says is that we might be able to uh take and in particular so {disfmarker} so the ones we talked about were uh exhibiting and selling", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Accessibility .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "no , accessibility meant", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If it 's closed one probably won't enter . Or if it 's not accessible to a tourist ever the likelihood of that person actually wanting to enter it ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "given that he knows it , of course .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright . So let me suggest this . Uh w could you move those up about halfway . Uh The ones that you th And selling I guess .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , all {disfmarker} all of these if it 's fixing things selling things , or servicing things", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . So here {disfmarker} here 's what it looks like to me . is that you want an intermediate structure which i uh is essentially the or of uh for this purpose of {disfmarker} of uh selling , f fixing , or servicing . So that it uh that is , for certain purposes , it becomes important but for this kind of purpose uh one of these places is quite like the other . Does that seem right ? So we di", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Basic you 're basically just merging those for just the sake of endpoint decision ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "if we Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} well it may be more than endpoint decisions , so the idea would be that you might wanna merge those three", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "These three ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Eh ser s uh selling , fixing , and servicing .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What ex um and so either those is true f or false ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh Uh well it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i here 's where it gets a little tricky .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh from the belief - net point of view it is from another point of view of course it 's interest it 's {disfmarker} it 's important to know what it 's selling or servicing and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So for this decision it 's just uh true or false", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and in th this is a case where the or seems just what you want .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} that if any of those things is true then it 's the kind of place that you uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um more likely to enter .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "are more likely to enter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So you just wanna have them all pointing to a summary thing ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You could , yeah . Yeah , so let 's do that . No no , no eh to {disfmarker} to an inter no , an intermediate node .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "T", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "That 's the p part of the idea , is", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um is {disfmarker} is that the object type node ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I d", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So are they the {disfmarker} is it the kind of object that sells , fixes , or services things ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , o open up object type and let 's see what its values are .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh I just created it , it has none so far .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , well OK first of all it 's not objects , we called them entities , right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And then we have sort of the um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Let 's say I put commercial .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I w I was just gonna commercial action inside where people p", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well couldn't I do {disfmarker} let 's do commercial uh landmark and", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And where was the accessible , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well accessible I think is different cuz that 's tempor that {disfmarker} that varies temporally ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "whereas this is a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What would a hotel fall under ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I would call that a service , but {disfmarker} but I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I mean in terms of entity type ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Say w w well it 's co I would s a a again for this purpose I think it 's commercial . Someplace you want to go in to do some kind of business .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um what does the underscore - T at the end of each of those things signify ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um things . So places that service things sell things or fix things and pe places that e exhibit things .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK . OK . That also points to entity type I guess .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So we 're deriving um this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this feature of whether the {disfmarker} the main action at this place happens inside or outside or what we 're deriving that from what kind of activity is done there ? Couldn't you have it as just a primitive feature of the entity ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well you could , that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a choice .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean it seems like that 's much more reliable cuz you could have outdoor places that sell things and you know indoor places that do something else", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , the problem with it is that it sort of putting in a feature just for one decision ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "now w we may wind up having to do that this i anyway , this i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "at a mental level that 's what we we 're gonna have to sort out .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So , you know what does this look like , what are {disfmarker} what are uh intermediate things that are worth computing , what are the features we need in order to make all these decisions", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and what 's the best way to organize this so that um it 's clean and {disfmarker} and consistent and all that sort of stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . I 'm just thinking about how people , human beings who know about places and places to go and so on would store this and it would probably {disfmarker} you wouldn't just sort of remember that they sell stuff and then deduce from that that it must be going on inside or something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I think an entity maybe should be regard as a vector of several possible things , it can either em do s do sell things , fix things , service things , exhibit things , it can be a landmark at the same time as doing these things ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it 's not either or mmm certainly a place can be a hotel and a famous site .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Many come to mind . Things can be generally um a landmark and be accessible . IE a {disfmarker} a castle or can be a landmark a or not accessible , some statue", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know can go inside .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK . Anyway so let me suggest you do something else . Uh which is to get rid {disfmarker} get rid of that l long link between who {disfmarker} the user and the endpoint .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Could we just move it like this ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No no , I don't want the link there at all .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Because what we 're gonna want is an intermediate thing which is uh the endpoint decisi the endpoint decision based o on the user models , so what we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} what we talked about is three separate endpoint decisions , so let 's make a new node", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Just as a suggestion maybe you could \" save as \" to keep your old one nice and clean and so you can mess with this one .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm . The old one was not that not that important , I think but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , well , not a big deal then .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's do it then .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the {disfmarker} Isn't there a \" save as \" inside of java base ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But I can just take this", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "copy it somewhere else . This was user something", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well this was", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh let 's p put it this {disfmarker} let 's do endpoint underbar - U .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "end point ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "i endpoint , e end poi this is sa", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "it 's the endpoint", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Gotcha , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "let 's say underbar - U , so that 's the endpoint decision uh as seen through the", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "As related from the user model .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . So let 's {disfmarker} let 's actually yeah so lin you can link that up to the", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Should I rename this {pause} too ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh yeah , so that , I guess that 's endpoint uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": " It 's underscore - E .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "underscore - E for entity , and we may change all this , but . Right . And", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , shouldn't I be able to move them all ? No . Or {disfmarker} ? Can I ? Where ? What ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh I d eh I don't know . Actually , I guess the easiest thing would move {disfmarker} mo move the endpoint , well , go ahead . Just do whatever .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Wasn't this possible ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I think you have to be in move mode before", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Good . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So now we 're looking for user related things that um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . And uh maybe th maybe it 's just one who is the user , I don't know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe there 's more .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well if he 's usi if he 's in a car right now what was that people with Harry drove the car into the cafe", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Never mind . Uh anyway , this is crude . Now but the {disfmarker} now so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but then the question is uh so {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and we assume that some of these properties would come indirectly through an ontology , but then we had this third idea of input from the discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} should we finish this ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean but surely the user interests", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The user thrift , the user budget .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , maybe , I again , I d well , OK , put em in but what we 're gonna wanna do is actually uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Here this was one of my problems we have the user interest is a {disfmarker} is a vector of five hundred values , so um That 's from the user model ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh you mean level of interest ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "mm - hmm , no not levels of interest but things you can be interested in .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "somebody else has built this user model .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh I see ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Gothic churches versus Baroque townhouses versus", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "right . So why is it oh it , so it 's like a vector of five hundred one 's or zero 's ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yea - n is that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Like for each thing are we {disfmarker} are you interested in it or not ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yeah uh I {disfmarker} I think", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So uh you cou and so here let me give you two ways to handle that . Alright ? One is um you could ignore it . But the other thing you could do is have an {disfmarker} and this will give you the flavor of the {disfmarker} of what you could have a node that 's {disfmarker} that was a measure of the match between the object 's feature , you know , the match between the object the entity , I 'm sorry and the user .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So you could have a k a \" fit \" node and again that would have to be computed by someone else", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but uh so that uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just as a mental note uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's all .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} and should we say that this interests eh affects the likelihood of {disfmarker} of entering ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , we could .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And also if it 's an expensive place to enter , this may also", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Budget .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "User schedule . \" Do I have time to go in and climb all the way to the top of the Koelner Dome {comment} or do I just have to {disfmarker} \" \" time to take a picture of the outside ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Schedule ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It seems like everything in a user model a affects {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well that 's what we don't wanna do , see that {disfmarker} se cuz then we get into huge combinatorics and stuff like that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "an", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Cuz if the , I mean , and if the user is tired , the user state ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right , it would affect stuff , but I can't see why e anything w everything in the model wouldn't be", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} we can't do that , so we we 're gonna have to", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but this is a good discussion , we 're gonna have to somehow figure out uh some way to encapsulate that uh so if there 's some general notion of for example the uh relation to the time to do this to the amount of time the guy has or something like that is {disfmarker} is the uh compatibility with his current state , so that 's what you 'd have to do , you 'd have to get it down to something which uh was itself relatively compact , so it could be compatibility with his current state which would include his money and his time and {disfmarker} and his energy", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , just seems like it 'd push the problem back a level .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It does .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No but , it 's more than that , like the {disfmarker} the more sort of you break it up like because if you have everything pointing to one node it 's like exponential whereas if you like keep breaking it up more and more it 's not exponential anymore .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So it yeah , there are two advantages . That 's tha there 's one technical one", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Sh - sh yeah , {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and the other is it {disfmarker} it gets used", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "S so we 'd basically be doing subgrouping ? Subgrouping , basically into mo", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so basically make it more tree like going backwards ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . But it {disfmarker} there 's two advantages , one is the technical one that you don't wind up with such big exponential uh CBT 's ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Bhaskara ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "the other is it can be {disfmarker} it presumably can be used for multiple decisions .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So that if you have this idea of the compatibility with the requirements of an action to the state of the user one could well imagine that that was u", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "not only is it sim is it cleaner to compute it separately but it could be that it 's used in multiple places . Anyway th so in general this is the design , this is really design problem .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , you 've got a signal , a d set of decisions um how do we do this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What do I have under user state anyhow cuz I named that already something . Oh that 's tired , fresh , yeah . Maybe should be renamed into physical state .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Or fat user fatigue even .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's with a \" G \" ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": " Whatever .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Then we can make a user state .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What 's th what we 're talking about is compatibility . Uh or something , I don't know , but .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess the {disfmarker} the question uh is It 's hard for me to imagine how everything wouldn't just contribute to user state again . Or user compatibility .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh but the thing is that we uh uh we had some things that uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That don't .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "that don't", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The user interests and the user who {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who the user is are completely apart from the fact whether he is tired broke", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure , but other {disfmarker} I thought though the node we 're creating right now is user compatibility to the current action , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "the right", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Seems like everything in the user model would contribute to whether or not the user was compatible with something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh maybe not . I mean the {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} the issue is um would Even if it was true in some abstract general sense it might not be true in terms of the information we actually had and can make use of . And anyway we 're gonna have to find some way to cl uh get this sufficiently simple to make it feasible .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Maybe um if we look at the {disfmarker} if we split it up again into sort of um if we look at the uh the endpoint again we {disfmarker} we said that for each of these things there are certain preconditions so you can only enter a place if you are not too tired to do so and also eh have the money to do so if it costs something so if you can afford it and perform it is preconditions . Viewing usually is cheap or free .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is that always true ? I don't know .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , with the way we 're defining it I think yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "W w but that eh viewing it without ent yeah view w with our definition of view it 's free cuz you", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And so is approaching .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well what about the Grand Canyon , right ? No , never mind . I mean are there {disfmarker} are there large things that you would have to pay to get up close to like , I mean never mind , not in the current {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No we have to enter the park .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Eh almost by definition um paying involves entering ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "ge going through some", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Right , sure .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Uh So let me suggest we switch to another one , I mean clearly there 's more work to be done on this", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but I think it 's gonna be more instructive to {disfmarker} to think about uh other decisions that we need to make in path land . And what they 're gonna look like .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So you can save this one as and open up the old one , right and {disfmarker} and then everything would be clean . You could do it again .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why , I think it 's worth saving this one but I think I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to keep this one", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "cuz I wanna see if {disfmarker} if we 're gonna reuse any of this stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um so this might be What next ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well you tell me , so in terms of the uh planner what 's {disfmarker} what 's a good one to do ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} th this go there or not I think is a good one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is a very basic one . So what makes things more likely that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the fir see the first thing is , getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So Keith this is gonna get into your world because uh we 're gonna want to know you know , which constructions indicate various of these properties", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "s and so I {disfmarker} I don't yet know how to do this , I guess we 're gonna wind up pulling out uh discourse properties like we have object properties and we don't know what they are yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that the Go - there decision will have a node from uh discourse , and I guess why don't we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Of {disfmarker} of course .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Identified that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and so again re that 's completely correct , we have the user model , the situation model here , we don't have the discourse model here yet . Much the same way as we didn't {disfmarker} we don't have the ontology here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting , selling , and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Really .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So in some sense it 's {disfmarker} it 's there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But the discourse we don't have it represented at all yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um This be specific for second year ? Um And {disfmarker} and we probably will have uh something like a discourse for endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But if we do it 'll have the three values .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "It 'll have the EVA values if {disfmarker} if we have it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK just for starters and here discourse um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "For Go - there , probably is true and false , let 's say . That 's what we talked about .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um well , I think um we 're looking at the {disfmarker} the little data that we have , so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they wanna go there .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So this should sort of push it in one direction", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And sometimes um people say where is it", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because they wanna know where it is but in most cases they probably", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that doesn't change the fact that you 're {disfmarker} you want these two values .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , true . So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it 's either {pause} yep , yay , A , or nay . Yeah . OK ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And they 'll be a y uh , a user Go - there and maybe that 's all , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Situation Go - there , I mean , because it 's {disfmarker} whether it 's open or not .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That definitely interes", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But that now that kind of um what 's the word", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "um the {disfmarker} that interacts with the uh EVA thing if they just wanna view it then it 's fine to go there when it 's closed whereas if they want to um", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's where it starts getting to be uh uh essentially more interesting , so what uh Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they 're only going to view it then it doesn't matter whether it 's closed or not", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "in terms of uh uh you know , whether {disfmarker} whether you wanna go there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The time of day ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right I {disfmarker} well , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It does matter though if there 's like a strike or riot or something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right . So yeah , that 's what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this {disfmarker} that node by itself wouldn't distinguish", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well i i it can have di various values . Yeah , but we eh you {disfmarker} you 're right it might not be enough .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean , see I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking that any node that begins with \" Go - there \" is either gonna be true or false .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , what {disfmarker} Whoops .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah . I see that could be .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Also , that node , I mean the Go - there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "you know , there 's different things , the strikes and the", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Could be . Yeah . N", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Like situation traffic and so on .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , the time of day .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So {disfmarker} so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that uh there sh should be a link , and this is where things are gonna get very messy from the endpoint uh decision", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess the final", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "maybe the t they 're final re and , I guess the very bottom endpoint decision uh to the Go - there node . And I {disfmarker} don't worry about layout ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean then we 'll go {disfmarker} we 'll go nuts but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Maybe we could um have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go - there S node sort of fed into ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Could be , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right . Because that 's what we , I mean that 's why this situation comes up .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well the Go - there , actually the Endpoint node could feed {disfmarker} feed into the Go - there S That 's right ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so the Endpoint node ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "make that up t t to the Go - there then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and again we 'll have to do layout at some point , but something like that . Now it 's gonna be important not to have loops by the way . Uh really important in {disfmarker} in the belief worl net world not to have loops", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I was just gonna", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "How long does it take you to {disfmarker} to compute uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No it 's much worse than that . It {disfmarker} if i loo it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's not def i it 's not well defined if you 're there are loops ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} things don't converge , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "uh R recursive action ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there isn't uh OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh but this isn't , this is {disfmarker} this line is just coming from over here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , no it 's not a loop yet , I 'm just saying we {disfmarker} we , in no , in", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , but the good thing is we {disfmarker} we could have loopy belief propagation which {vocalsound} we all love .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . OK , so anyway , so that 's another decision . Uh what 's {disfmarker} what 's another decision you like ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , these have no parents yet , but I guess that sort of doesn't matter . Right ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , the idea is that you go there , you go comes from something about the user from something about the situation and the uh the discourse is {disfmarker} is a mystery .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean this is sort of This comes from traffic and so forth , yeah . Sh - Should we just make some", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure , if you want .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um if there 's parking maybe Mmm Oh who cares . OK . And if he has seen it already or not and so forth ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Um and discourse is something that sort of should we make a Keith note here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That sort of comes from Keith .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just sort of so we don't forget . Oops . Have to get used to this . OK , whoops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Um actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And then also the discourse endpoint , I {disfmarker} I guess endpoint sub - D is {disfmarker} if you wanna make it consistent .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Wh - ah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Um actually is this the {disfmarker} the right way to have it where um go there from the user and go there from the situation just sort of don't know about each other but they both feed the go there decision because isn't the , I mean", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think so . S", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh , hmm OK . But that still allows for the possibility of the {disfmarker} of the user model affecting our decision about whether a strike is the sort of thing which is going to keep this user away from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Maybe not , a Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} all that {disfmarker} that kind of decision making happens at the Go - there node .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh y you {disfmarker} yeah you {disfmarker} i you {disfmarker} if you needed to do that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh . If you needed it to do that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But uh OK I was just thinking I guess maybe I 'm conflating that user node with possible {disfmarker} possible asking of the user", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "you know hey there 's a strike on , uh does that affect whether or not you wanna go or something", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah . Good point , I don't {disfmarker} I don't know how we 're going to {disfmarker} t uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or Yeah , so that might not come out of a user model but , you know , directly out of interaction .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Uh I gu yes my curr you know , don't yeah yeah yeah that 's enough .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh My current idea on that would be that each of these decision nodes has questions associated with it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And the question wouldn't itself be one of these conditional things", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know , given that you know there 's a strike do you still wanna go ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But uh if you told him a bunch of stuff , then you would ask him do you wanna go ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I think trying to formulate the conditional question , that sounds too much .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right , right . Yeah . Right , sure , OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "To me .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright , but let me {disfmarker} let {disfmarker} let 's stay with this a minute", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "because I want to do a little bit of organization . Before we get more into details . The organization is going to be that uh the flavor of what 's going on is going to be that uh as we s e sort of going to this detail indeed Keith is going to {disfmarker} to worry about the various constructions that people might use", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and Johno has committed himself to being the parser wizard ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so what 's going to happen is that eventually like by the time he graduates , OK uh they 'll be some sort of system which is able to take the discourse in context and have outputs that can feed the rest of belief - net . I j wa I {disfmarker} I assume everybody knows that , I just wanna you know , get closure that that 'll be the game then ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so the semantics that you 'll get out of the discourse will be of values that go into the various discourse - based decision nodes . And now some of those will get fancier like mode of transportation and stuff so it isn't by any means uh necessarily a simple thing that you want out . So uh if there is an and there is mode of transportation", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And it there 's a sort of also a split if you loo if you blow this up and look at it in more detail there 's something that comes from the discourse in terms of what was actually just said what 's the utterance go giving us", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and then what 's the discourse history give us .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , well that , well , we 'll have to decide uh how much of th where that goes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's uh two things then .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "an and it 's not clear yet . I mean it could be those are two separate things , it could be that the discourse gadget itself integrates em as {disfmarker} which would be my guess that you 'd have to do see in order to do reference and stuff like that um you 've gotta have both the current discourse and the context to say I wanna go back there ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "wow , what does that mean and uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Now . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Alright . So", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But is th is this picture that 's emerging here just my wish that you have noticed already for symmetry or is it that we get for each {disfmarker} each decision on the very bottom we sort of get the sub - E , sub - D , sub - U and maybe a sub - O {disfmarker} \" O \" for \" ontology \" um meta node", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but it might just", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "It could be .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "could be", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is getting into the thing I wanna talk about next ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so this", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "which is s if that 's true uh how do we wanna combine those ? O or when it 's true ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but this eh w wou wou would be nice though that , you know , we only have at most four at the moment um arrows going f to each of the uh bottom decisions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And four you {disfmarker} we can handle .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It 's too much ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well i i it see i if it 's fou if it 's four things and each of them has four values it turns out to be a big CPT , it 's not s completely impossi I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not beyond what the system could solve but it 's probably beyond what we could actually uh write down . or learn .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right , true .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh but , you know it 's four to the fourth . It 's pretty big . Uh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two fifty - six ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "is that what that", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it 's and I don't think it 's gonna g e I don't think it 'll get worse than that by the way , so le that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a good", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but four {disfmarker} didn't we decide that all of these had true or false ? So is {disfmarker} it 's four", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh for go there , but not f but not for {disfmarker} the other one 's three values for endpoint already .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean you need actually three to the five because uh well I mean if {disfmarker} if it has four inputs and then it itself has three values", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so I mean it can get big fast .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um for endpoint ? No it 's {disfmarker} it 's sh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "EV - it 's the EVA .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah , down here , but this one only has two .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No it still has three ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Since ta they will still have three .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "EVA .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Each {disfmarker} so you 're uh uh from each point of view you 're making the same decision .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So from the point of view of the ob of the entity", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Want to view that , yeah yeah . C sl", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker} and also , I mean , the other places where , like for example consider endpoint view , it has inputs coming from user budget , user thrift", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so even", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Those are not necessarily binary . S so we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna have to use some t care in the knowledge engineering to not have this explode . And in fact I think it doesn't in the sense that um Read it , you know actually with the underlying semantics and stuff I think it isn't like you have two hundred and fifty - six different uh ways of {disfmarker} of thinking about whether this user wants to go to some place . Alright . So we {disfmarker} we just have to figure out what the regularities are and and code them . But um What I was gonna suggest next is maybe we wanna work on this a little longer but I do want to also talk about the thing that we started into now of uh well it 's all fine to say all these arrows come into the si same place what rule of combination is used there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So th yes they {disfmarker} so these things all affect it ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "how do they affect it ? And belief - nets have their own beliefs about uh what are good ways to do that . So is it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clearer n clear enough what the issue is ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? So do we wanna switch that now or we wanna do some more of this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "R basically w we just need to sort of in order to get some closure on this figure out how we 're gonna get this picture sort of uh completely messy .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , here {disfmarker} he here 's one of the things that {disfmarker} that I th you sh you {disfmarker} no , I don't know how easy it is to do this in the interface but you {disfmarker} it would be great if you could actually just display at a given time uh all the things that you pick up , you click on \" endpoint \" , OK and everything else fades", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and you just see the links that are relevant to that . And I does anybody remember the GUI on this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh d I would almost say the other way to do that would be to open u or make you know N - many belief - nets and then open them every time you wanted to look at a different one", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "vers cuz uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's probably pretty easy do it {disfmarker} to do it in HTML , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "HTML ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah I have each of these thing each of the end belief - nets be {disfmarker} be a page and then you click on the thing and then li consider that it 's respective ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well the b", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "anyway so uh it clear that even with this if we put in all the arrows nobody is gonna be able to read the diagram .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright , so e we have to figure out some eh eh uh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} let me consi suggest that 's a s not a first - order consideration , we have two first - order considerations which is what are the uh influences A , A , and B how do they get combined mathematically , how do we display them is an issue , but um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I don't , yeah I just don't think this has been designed to support something like that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , it might soon , if this is gonna be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to uh start modifying it for our purposes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , and Um I {disfmarker} that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into , but um we have to know what we want first . OK , so why don't you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what {disfmarker} what the choices might be for these ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So Ah , sorry . I guess that 's", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You can technically wear that as you 're talking .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's right , I guess I can do that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Darn .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Put it in your , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess this board works fine . So um recall the basic problem which is that um you have a belief - net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node . Right ? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it 's so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty - three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down . So what um helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set , right ? These are all like saying EV or A , right ? So it 's not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we wanna just take a combination of {disfmarker} we wanna view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we wanna sort of combine their decisions and create you know , um sorta weighted combination .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm . ROVER , the ROVER decision .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "The what decision ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "ROVER . All of their outputs combined to make a decision .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So the problem is to specify the uh so the conditional property of this given all those , right ? That 's the way belief - nets are defined , like each node given its parents , right ? So um that 's what we want , we want for example P of um let 's call this guy Y and let 's call these X - one , X - two XN , right . So we want probability that Y equals , you know , for example um E given that these guys are I 'll just refer to this as like X um hat or something , uh the co like all of them ? Given that for example the data says you know , A , V , A , E , or something right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So we would like to do this kind of combination .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Alright , so um Is that uh I {disfmarker} yeah , I just wanna make sure everybody is with us before he goes on .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think so , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's cl e is {disfmarker} is it clear what he wants to compute ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . So , right . So Basically um {vocalsound} what we don't wanna do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E , s give a number", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because that 's obviously not desirable . What we wanna do is find some principled way of um saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution , so we want it to um add up to one , right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So those are the two things that we uh need . So what uh I guess , what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we , you know view these guys as voting and we just take the uh we essentially take um averages , right ? So for example here two people have voted for A , one has voted for V , and one has voted for E , so we could say that the probabilities are , you know , probability of being E is one over four , because one person voted for E out of four and similarly , probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is um two out of four and probability of V is one out of four . Right ? So that 's step {disfmarker} that 's the uh yeah that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the basic uh thing . Now", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is that all OK ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And that one outcome , that 's", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "it 's X {disfmarker} X - one voted for A X - two voted for V", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and so forth ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Y right . Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things , which may or may not be a good assumption ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's the outcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So step two is um right . So we 've assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know , some w be that for example , what the um the actual the uh verbal content of what the person said , like what uh what might be uh somehow more uh important than the uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "X - one matters more i than X - two or", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . Sure , so we don't wanna like give them all equal weight so currently we 've been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by uh W - one , W - two , W - three , and W - four", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each um X - hat , we just need that the W 's sum to one . So they can be for example , you know you {disfmarker} you could have point one , point three , point two , and point four , say .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And that 'd be one . So that um also seems to work fine . And uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So I jus just to make sure I understand this , so in this case um we would still compute the average ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You 'd compute the weighted average , so the probability of E would be uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} so it 'd be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be uh {comment} W one times {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Point three .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or A or {disfmarker} let 's see , one full quarter times point one", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Not one quarter ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so these numbers have been replaced with point one , point three , point two , and point four . So you can view these as gone .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Probability of", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK . So , alright . So this is uh step two . So the next possibility is that um we 've given just a single weight to each expert , right , whereas it might be the case that um in certain situations one of the experts is more uh reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable . So the way this is handled is by what 's called a mixture of experts , so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called \" H \" , OK ? This is a hidden variable . And what this is is it gets its input from X - one , X - two , X - three , and X - four , and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation . Right ? And then these guys all come here . OK . So this is sightly uh more complicated . So what 's going on is that um this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these isn't likely to be more reliable or most reliable . So H produces some you know , it produces a number , either one , two , three , or four , in our situation , right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it 's two , and then he just selects the uh thing . That 's all there is to say , I guess about it . Right , so you can have a mixture that", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs . It 's driving how the other four are interpreted . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So H passes a vector on to the next node ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It could .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It could ? A vector of the weights as the se", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it could", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well a vector with three zero 's and one one , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh it 's basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it 's in or which one of the weighting systems", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right , so I mean the way you desc", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "W I was just , if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too , couldn't you ? OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha , beta , whatever , or is the {disfmarker} that 's determined by what the experts are saying , like the type of situ OK . Hmm . OK . OK . I mean It {disfmarker} it just seems that like without that {disfmarker} that outside input that you 've got a situation where , you know , like if {disfmarker} if uh X - one says no , you know , a low value coming out of X - on or i if X - one says no then ignore X - one , you know , I mean that seems like that 'd be weird ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , well could be things like if X - two and X - three say yes then i ignore X - one also .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? Oh , OK . OK . Alright , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh The situations that H has , are they built into the net or OK , so they {disfmarker} they could either be hand coded or learned or OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Based on training data , OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations . Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um Well , I mean to learn them we need data , where are we gonna get data ? Well I mean we need data with people intentions , right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Which is slightly tricky . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But what 's the data about like , are we able to get these nodes from the data ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Like how thrifty the user is , or do we have access to that ? Mm - hmm . Oh right . Oh good . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that 's my question , like how do we {disfmarker} I mean , how do we have data about something like um um endpoint sub - E , or endpoint sub uh {pause} you know s S ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , basically you would say , based on {disfmarker} in this dialogue that we have which one of the things that they said eh whether it was the entity relations or whatever was the thing that determined what mode it was ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So this is what we wanna learn . Yep . Right . Hmm . Yeah . I don't think , well you have a {disfmarker} can you bring up the function thing ? Um w where is the thing that allows you to sort of", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's on the added variable , isn't it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh function properties , is that it ? Hmm , I guess not . Yeah , that 's", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . OK . And um it so e either it 'll allow us to do everything which I think is unlikely , I think more likely it 'll allow us to do very few of these things and in that case we 'll have to um just write up little things that allow you to um create such CPU 's on your own in the java base format . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do because yeah I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do , it 's Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ah . Well in terms of java base I think it 's basically what you see is what you get in I don't yeah , I would be surprised if it supports anything more than what we have right here .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So Yeah . Yeah . By the way um uh just talking about uh about that general end of things uh is there gonna be data soon from what people say when they 're interacting with the system and so on ? Like , I mean , what kind of questions are being given {disfmarker} being asked ? Cuz {disfmarker} OK . Yeah yeah . OK . OK . Fey , you mean . OK . OK . O OK . OK . I 'm just wondering , because in terms of , you know , I mean uh w the figure {disfmarker} I was thinking about this figure that we talked about , fifty constructions or whatever that 's uh that 's a whole lot of constructions and um you know , I mean one might be f fairly pleased with getting a really good analysis of five maybe ten in a summer so , I mean I know we 're going for sort of a rough and ready . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK . OK . I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} uh I was talking about the , you know , if you wanted to do it really in detail and we don't really need all the detail for what we 're doing right now but anyway in terms of just narrowing that task you know which fifty do I do , I wanna see what people are using , so Well , it will inspire me . Right , sure sure . Right . Yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah . OK . Touche . Good enough .", "speaker": "Grad A" } ]

[ { "content": "Alright , so I 'm - I should read all of these numbers ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Piece of paper ? I could borrow ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so uh i um I don't know whether Ami 's coming or not um but I think we oughta just get started .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Nancy is uh currently in Berkeley but not here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Nancy 's still stick ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Don't know . Anyway", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , so there you go . Anyway , so my idea f for today and we can uh decide that that isn't the right thing to do was to at {disfmarker} spend at least part of the time trying to eh build the influence links , you know which sets of things are uh relevant to which decisions and actually I had uh specific s suggestion to start first with the path ones . The database ones being in some sense less interesting to us although probably have to be done and so to do that so there 's {disfmarker} and the idea was we were gonna do two things", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is your mike on ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ah . Oh right , well . Yeah . We were gonna do two things one of which is just lay out the influence structure of what we think influences what", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's funny .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and then as a uh separate but related task uh particularly Bhaskara and I were going to try to decide what kinds of belief nodes are needed in order to um do what we {disfmarker} what we need to do . Once so but du we should sort of have all of the uh basic design of what influences what done before we decide exactly how to compute it . So I didn't {disfmarker} did you get a chance to look at all {disfmarker} yet ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I looked at some of that stuff .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Great . OK so let 's start with the uh belief - nets , the general influence stuff and then we 'll {disfmarker} then we 'll also at some point break and talk about the techy stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I think one could go there 's I think we can di discuss everything . First of all this I added , I knew from sort of basically this has to be there right ? Um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh are you gonna go there or not ? Yeah , so one i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Given {disfmarker} given uh uh not transverse the castle , the decision is does the person want to go there or is it just", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right , true . Does have to be there . And I 'm sure we 'll find more as we go that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And Hmm ? So Go - there in the first place or not is definitely uh one of the basic ones . We can start with that . Interesting effect . Um Is this basically true or false or maybe we 'll get", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Which one ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "what ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "\" Go there \" .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "m right .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "so there is this question about", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Here we we actually get just probabilities ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "right for each down here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "When we 're {disfmarker} yeah when we 're done . So {disfmarker} so", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the reason it might not be true or false is that we did have this idea of when so it 's , you know uh current @ @ and so forth and so on or not at all ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "right ? And so that a decision would be do we want that so you could {disfmarker} two different things you could do , you could have all those values for Go - there or you could have Go - there be binary and given that you 're going there when .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "When . How .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Why ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So I 'll let", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "we 'll see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I mean it seems that you could um uh it seems that those things would be logically independent like you would wanna have them separate or binary , Go - there and then the {disfmarker} the possibilities of how to go there because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , that 's {disfmarker} let 's start that way .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because , you know it might be easy to figure out that this person is going to need more film eventually from their utterance but it 's much more complex to query when would be the most appropriate time .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Hmm . OK . And so I 've tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user ? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model - A . We should be be clear . But when it comes to sort of writing down when you {disfmarker} when you do these things is it here ? You sort of have to a write the values this can take .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And here I was really uh in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because um {disfmarker} this case it 's pretty simple , but as we will see the other ones um for example if it 's a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "How can I write here that this is something , a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK . Thus is understandable ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Think so .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So here for example .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "You 've s have you seen this before at all Keith , these belief - net things ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no , but I think I 'm following it . So far .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So here is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we had that the user 's budget may influence the outcome of decisions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK , h well I mean how is it different from user finance ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um the finance is sort of here thought of as {disfmarker} as the financial policy a person carries out in his life , he {disfmarker} is he cheap , average , or spendy ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um I didn't come uh maybe a user I don't know , I didn't want to write greediness , but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or cheapness .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Welcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "User thrift .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Welcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Thrift , that 's good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "There it is .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So Keith w what 's behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief - nets for you and stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So this is not just a display , this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we 'll wind up with a functioning belief - net at the other end .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And it 's so simple even I can use it .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Wow , that is simple .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so here was OK , I can think of uh people being cheap , average , or spendy or we can even have a {disfmarker} a finer scale moderately cheap ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Doesn't matter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "doesn't matter . Agree there but here um I wasn't sure what to write in .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Let 's {disfmarker} go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , I mean you 've written in {disfmarker} you 've written in what uh seems to be required like what else is {disfmarker} is do you want ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If that 's permissible then I 'm happy .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well yeah . So here 's {disfmarker} here 's what 's permissible is that you can arrange so that the um the value of that is gonna have to be updated and n it 's not a belief update , right ? It 's {disfmarker} you took some actions , you spent money and stuff , so the update of that is gonna have to be essentially external to the belief - net . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And then what you 're going to need is uh for the things that it influences . Well let 's {disfmarker} first of all let 's see if it does influence anything . And if it does influence anything then you 're gonna need something that converts from the {disfmarker} the number here to something that 's relevant to the decision there . So it could be ra they create different ranges that are relevant for different decisions or whatever {disfmarker} but for the moment this is just a node that is conditioned externally and might influence various things .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yeah {disfmarker} this is where um OK anyways let 's forget it .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well that 's fine . Well anyway , go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , and so this , oh that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "The other thing is that um every time that 's updated beliefs will have to be propagated but then the question is do you {disfmarker} do we wanna propagate beliefs every single time it 's updated or only when we need to ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's a good question . And uh does it have a lazy mode ? I don't remember .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh Well , I mean , in Srini 's thing there was this thing {disfmarker} there was this um option like proper inferences which suggests that uh doesn't happen , automatically .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh right . Yeah . S probably does . Yeah someone has to track that down , but I {disfmarker} but uh And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I think {disfmarker} actually uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I just accidentally Oops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "one of the we w items for the uh user home base uh should be uh essentially non - local . I they 're only there for the day and they don't have a place that they 're staying .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh just uh accidentally erased this , I {disfmarker} I just had values here such as uh um is he s we had in our list we had \" Is he staying in our hotel ? \" , \" Is he staying with friends ? \" , and so forth", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh so we 're OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So it 's clear where w w w where we are right now . So my suggestion is we just pick uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Something down here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "one , you know one uh particular one of the uh well let 's do the first {disfmarker} first one let 's do the one that we sort of already think we did so w that was the {disfmarker} of the endpoint ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . And um Oops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is hmm", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ah ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So it 's true or false ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . No no no , EVA .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Missed that one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What 's the difference between mode and endpoint ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I thought mode , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "although that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um mode was um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , that 's", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mode of transportation ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK . Also true or false .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No , he has he hasn't filled them in yet , is what 's true .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Did I or didn't I ? Ah . Probably nothing done yet , oh I just did it on the upper ones , OK . Makes sense . OK , so this was EVA . Maybe we can think of more things , cross", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Climb , rob .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "climb , emerge", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No no no , these are ju that 's just a point ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well some of those are subsumed by approach .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "this is ju", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Would it be an endpoint if you were crossing over it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The Charles Bridge , you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , would be a f for a given segment . You know , you {disfmarker} y you go {disfmarker} first go the town square", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I eh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I mean , if you go to re you know if you go to Prague or whatever one of your {disfmarker} your key points that you have to do is cross the Charles Bridge and doesn't really matter which way you cross which {disfmarker} where you end up at the end but the part {disfmarker} the good part is walking over it , so .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's subtle , but true . Anyway so let 's just leave it three {disfmarker} with three for now", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm , mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and let 's see if we can get it linked up just to get ourselves started .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , we", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "You 'll see it {disfmarker} you 'll see something comes up immediately , that the reason I wanna do this .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "w well the uh user was uh definitely more likely to enter if he 's a local", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "more likely to view if he 's a tourist um and then of course we had the fact that given the fact that he 's thrifty and there will be admission then we get all these cross um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "We did , but the three things w that {disfmarker} that it contributed to this in fact , the other two aren't up there . so one was the ontology", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We 'll d what type of building is it ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the third thing we talked about was something from the discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What he has mentioned before .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , so this is w Right , so what w I {disfmarker} what we seem to need here , this is why it starts getting into the technical stuff", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "the way we had been designing this , there were three intermediate nodes uh which were the endpoint decision as seen from the uh user model as seen from the ontology and as seen from the discourse . So each of those the way we had it designed , now we can change the design , but the design we had was there was a decision with the same three outcomes uh based on the th those three separate considerations", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so if we wanted to do that would have to put in uh three intermediate nodes", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh we can load it up it you know very simple .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and then what you and I have to talk about is , OK if we 're doing that and they get combined somehow uh how do they get combined ? But the {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're undoubtedly gonna be more things to worry about .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So this was adjusted for this one mode thing .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So that 's w w in our uh in {disfmarker} in Johno 's sort of pictogram everything that could contribute to whether a person wants to enter , view , or approach something .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , it was called mode , so this {disfmarker} this is m mode here means the same as endpoint .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is now this endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , why don't we ch can we change that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We can just rename that , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright . You know , but that was actually , yeah unfortunately that was a um kind of an intermediate versio that 's I don't think what we would currently do .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Can I ask about \" slurred \" and \" angry \" as inputs to this ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} why ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Like they 're either true or false", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The prosody ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and they uh oh I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If the {disfmarker} if the person talking is angry or slurs their speech they might be tired or , you know", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Drunk .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Therefore", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And , you know , possibly uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Less likely to enter .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "some ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "uh I was thinking less likely to view", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But that 's - that seems to , yeah . So {disfmarker} so my advice to do is {disfmarker} is get this down to what we think is actually likely to {disfmarker} to be a {disfmarker} a strong influence .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But yeah , that was what he had in mind .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So let 's think about this {disfmarker} this question of how do we wanna handle {disfmarker} so there 're two separate things . One is {disfmarker} uh at least two . One is how do we want to handle the notion of the ontology now what we talked about , and this is another technical thing Bhaskara , is uh can we arrange so that I think we can so that the belief - net itself has properties and the properties are filled in uh from on ontology items . So the {disfmarker} let 's take the case of the uh this endpoint thing , the notion was that if you had a few key properties like is this a tourist site , you know some kind of landmark is it a place of business uh is it something you physically could enter", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , et cetera . So that there 'd be certain properties that would fit into the decision node and then again as part of the ou outer controlling conditioning of this thing those would be set , so that some somehow someone would find this word , look it up in the ontology , pull out these properties , put it into the belief - net , and then the decision would flow .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Now", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Seems to me that we 've sort of e em embedded a lot , em embedded a lot of these uh things we had in there previously in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some of the other final decisions done here , for example if we would know that this thing is exhibiting something um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it 's exhibiting itself it is a landmark ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "meaning more likely to be viewed", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it is exhibiting pictures or sculptures and stuff like this , then it 's more likely to be entered .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I uh that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's completely right and um I think that 's good , right ? So what {disfmarker} what that says is that we might be able to uh take and in particular so {disfmarker} so the ones we talked about were uh exhibiting and selling", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Accessibility .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "no , accessibility meant", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If it 's closed one probably won't enter . Or if it 's not accessible to a tourist ever the likelihood of that person actually wanting to enter it ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "given that he knows it , of course .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright . So let me suggest this . Uh w could you move those up about halfway . Uh The ones that you th And selling I guess .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , all {disfmarker} all of these if it 's fixing things selling things , or servicing things", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . So here {disfmarker} here 's what it looks like to me . is that you want an intermediate structure which i uh is essentially the or of uh for this purpose of {disfmarker} of uh selling , f fixing , or servicing . So that it uh that is , for certain purposes , it becomes important but for this kind of purpose uh one of these places is quite like the other . Does that seem right ? So we di", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Basic you 're basically just merging those for just the sake of endpoint decision ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "if we Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} well it may be more than endpoint decisions , so the idea would be that you might wanna merge those three", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "These three ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Eh ser s uh selling , fixing , and servicing .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What ex um and so either those is true f or false ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh Uh well it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i here 's where it gets a little tricky .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh from the belief - net point of view it is from another point of view of course it 's interest it 's {disfmarker} it 's important to know what it 's selling or servicing and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So for this decision it 's just uh true or false", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and in th this is a case where the or seems just what you want .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} that if any of those things is true then it 's the kind of place that you uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um more likely to enter .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "are more likely to enter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So you just wanna have them all pointing to a summary thing ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You could , yeah . Yeah , so let 's do that . No no , no eh to {disfmarker} to an inter no , an intermediate node .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "T", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "That 's the p part of the idea , is", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um is {disfmarker} is that the object type node ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I d", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So are they the {disfmarker} is it the kind of object that sells , fixes , or services things ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , o open up object type and let 's see what its values are .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh I just created it , it has none so far .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , well OK first of all it 's not objects , we called them entities , right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And then we have sort of the um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Let 's say I put commercial .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I w I was just gonna commercial action inside where people p", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well couldn't I do {disfmarker} let 's do commercial uh landmark and", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And where was the accessible , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well accessible I think is different cuz that 's tempor that {disfmarker} that varies temporally ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "whereas this is a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What would a hotel fall under ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I would call that a service , but {disfmarker} but I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I mean in terms of entity type ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Say w w well it 's co I would s a a again for this purpose I think it 's commercial . Someplace you want to go in to do some kind of business .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um what does the underscore - T at the end of each of those things signify ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um things . So places that service things sell things or fix things and pe places that e exhibit things .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK . OK . That also points to entity type I guess .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So we 're deriving um this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this feature of whether the {disfmarker} the main action at this place happens inside or outside or what we 're deriving that from what kind of activity is done there ? Couldn't you have it as just a primitive feature of the entity ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well you could , that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a choice .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean it seems like that 's much more reliable cuz you could have outdoor places that sell things and you know indoor places that do something else", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , the problem with it is that it sort of putting in a feature just for one decision ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "now w we may wind up having to do that this i anyway , this i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "at a mental level that 's what we we 're gonna have to sort out .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So , you know what does this look like , what are {disfmarker} what are uh intermediate things that are worth computing , what are the features we need in order to make all these decisions", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and what 's the best way to organize this so that um it 's clean and {disfmarker} and consistent and all that sort of stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . I 'm just thinking about how people , human beings who know about places and places to go and so on would store this and it would probably {disfmarker} you wouldn't just sort of remember that they sell stuff and then deduce from that that it must be going on inside or something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I think an entity maybe should be regard as a vector of several possible things , it can either em do s do sell things , fix things , service things , exhibit things , it can be a landmark at the same time as doing these things ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it 's not either or mmm certainly a place can be a hotel and a famous site .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Many come to mind . Things can be generally um a landmark and be accessible . IE a {disfmarker} a castle or can be a landmark a or not accessible , some statue", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know can go inside .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK . Anyway so let me suggest you do something else . Uh which is to get rid {disfmarker} get rid of that l long link between who {disfmarker} the user and the endpoint .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Could we just move it like this ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No no , I don't want the link there at all .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Because what we 're gonna want is an intermediate thing which is uh the endpoint decisi the endpoint decision based o on the user models , so what we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} what we talked about is three separate endpoint decisions , so let 's make a new node", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Just as a suggestion maybe you could \" save as \" to keep your old one nice and clean and so you can mess with this one .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm . The old one was not that not that important , I think but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , well , not a big deal then .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's do it then .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the {disfmarker} Isn't there a \" save as \" inside of java base ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But I can just take this", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "copy it somewhere else . This was user something", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well this was", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh let 's p put it this {disfmarker} let 's do endpoint underbar - U .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "end point ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "i endpoint , e end poi this is sa", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "it 's the endpoint", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Gotcha , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "let 's say underbar - U , so that 's the endpoint decision uh as seen through the", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "As related from the user model .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . So let 's {disfmarker} let 's actually yeah so lin you can link that up to the", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Should I rename this {pause} too ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh yeah , so that , I guess that 's endpoint uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": " It 's underscore - E .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "underscore - E for entity , and we may change all this , but . Right . And", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , shouldn't I be able to move them all ? No . Or {disfmarker} ? Can I ? Where ? What ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh I d eh I don't know . Actually , I guess the easiest thing would move {disfmarker} mo move the endpoint , well , go ahead . Just do whatever .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Wasn't this possible ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I think you have to be in move mode before", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Good . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So now we 're looking for user related things that um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . And uh maybe th maybe it 's just one who is the user , I don't know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe there 's more .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well if he 's usi if he 's in a car right now what was that people with Harry drove the car into the cafe", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Never mind . Uh anyway , this is crude . Now but the {disfmarker} now so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but then the question is uh so {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and we assume that some of these properties would come indirectly through an ontology , but then we had this third idea of input from the discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} should we finish this ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean but surely the user interests", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The user thrift , the user budget .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , maybe , I again , I d well , OK , put em in but what we 're gonna wanna do is actually uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Here this was one of my problems we have the user interest is a {disfmarker} is a vector of five hundred values , so um That 's from the user model ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh you mean level of interest ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "mm - hmm , no not levels of interest but things you can be interested in .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "somebody else has built this user model .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh I see ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Gothic churches versus Baroque townhouses versus", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "right . So why is it oh it , so it 's like a vector of five hundred one 's or zero 's ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yea - n is that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Like for each thing are we {disfmarker} are you interested in it or not ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yeah uh I {disfmarker} I think", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So uh you cou and so here let me give you two ways to handle that . Alright ? One is um you could ignore it . But the other thing you could do is have an {disfmarker} and this will give you the flavor of the {disfmarker} of what you could have a node that 's {disfmarker} that was a measure of the match between the object 's feature , you know , the match between the object the entity , I 'm sorry and the user .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So you could have a k a \" fit \" node and again that would have to be computed by someone else", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but uh so that uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just as a mental note uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's all .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} and should we say that this interests eh affects the likelihood of {disfmarker} of entering ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , we could .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And also if it 's an expensive place to enter , this may also", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Budget .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "User schedule . \" Do I have time to go in and climb all the way to the top of the Koelner Dome {comment} or do I just have to {disfmarker} \" \" time to take a picture of the outside ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Schedule ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It seems like everything in a user model a affects {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well that 's what we don't wanna do , see that {disfmarker} se cuz then we get into huge combinatorics and stuff like that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "an", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Cuz if the , I mean , and if the user is tired , the user state ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right , it would affect stuff , but I can't see why e anything w everything in the model wouldn't be", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} we can't do that , so we we 're gonna have to", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but this is a good discussion , we 're gonna have to somehow figure out uh some way to encapsulate that uh so if there 's some general notion of for example the uh relation to the time to do this to the amount of time the guy has or something like that is {disfmarker} is the uh compatibility with his current state , so that 's what you 'd have to do , you 'd have to get it down to something which uh was itself relatively compact , so it could be compatibility with his current state which would include his money and his time and {disfmarker} and his energy", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , just seems like it 'd push the problem back a level .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It does .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No but , it 's more than that , like the {disfmarker} the more sort of you break it up like because if you have everything pointing to one node it 's like exponential whereas if you like keep breaking it up more and more it 's not exponential anymore .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So it yeah , there are two advantages . That 's tha there 's one technical one", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Sh - sh yeah , {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and the other is it {disfmarker} it gets used", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "S so we 'd basically be doing subgrouping ? Subgrouping , basically into mo", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so basically make it more tree like going backwards ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . But it {disfmarker} there 's two advantages , one is the technical one that you don't wind up with such big exponential uh CBT 's ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Bhaskara ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "the other is it can be {disfmarker} it presumably can be used for multiple decisions .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So that if you have this idea of the compatibility with the requirements of an action to the state of the user one could well imagine that that was u", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "not only is it sim is it cleaner to compute it separately but it could be that it 's used in multiple places . Anyway th so in general this is the design , this is really design problem .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , you 've got a signal , a d set of decisions um how do we do this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What do I have under user state anyhow cuz I named that already something . Oh that 's tired , fresh , yeah . Maybe should be renamed into physical state .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Or fat user fatigue even .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's with a \" G \" ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": " Whatever .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Then we can make a user state .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What 's th what we 're talking about is compatibility . Uh or something , I don't know , but .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess the {disfmarker} the question uh is It 's hard for me to imagine how everything wouldn't just contribute to user state again . Or user compatibility .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh but the thing is that we uh uh we had some things that uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That don't .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "that don't", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The user interests and the user who {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who the user is are completely apart from the fact whether he is tired broke", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure , but other {disfmarker} I thought though the node we 're creating right now is user compatibility to the current action , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "the right", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Seems like everything in the user model would contribute to whether or not the user was compatible with something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh maybe not . I mean the {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} the issue is um would Even if it was true in some abstract general sense it might not be true in terms of the information we actually had and can make use of . And anyway we 're gonna have to find some way to cl uh get this sufficiently simple to make it feasible .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Maybe um if we look at the {disfmarker} if we split it up again into sort of um if we look at the uh the endpoint again we {disfmarker} we said that for each of these things there are certain preconditions so you can only enter a place if you are not too tired to do so and also eh have the money to do so if it costs something so if you can afford it and perform it is preconditions . Viewing usually is cheap or free .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is that always true ? I don't know .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , with the way we 're defining it I think yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "W w but that eh viewing it without ent yeah view w with our definition of view it 's free cuz you", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And so is approaching .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well what about the Grand Canyon , right ? No , never mind . I mean are there {disfmarker} are there large things that you would have to pay to get up close to like , I mean never mind , not in the current {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No we have to enter the park .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Eh almost by definition um paying involves entering ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "ge going through some", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Right , sure .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Uh So let me suggest we switch to another one , I mean clearly there 's more work to be done on this", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but I think it 's gonna be more instructive to {disfmarker} to think about uh other decisions that we need to make in path land . And what they 're gonna look like .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So you can save this one as and open up the old one , right and {disfmarker} and then everything would be clean . You could do it again .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why , I think it 's worth saving this one but I think I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to keep this one", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "cuz I wanna see if {disfmarker} if we 're gonna reuse any of this stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um so this might be What next ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well you tell me , so in terms of the uh planner what 's {disfmarker} what 's a good one to do ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} th this go there or not I think is a good one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is a very basic one . So what makes things more likely that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the fir see the first thing is , getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So Keith this is gonna get into your world because uh we 're gonna want to know you know , which constructions indicate various of these properties", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "s and so I {disfmarker} I don't yet know how to do this , I guess we 're gonna wind up pulling out uh discourse properties like we have object properties and we don't know what they are yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that the Go - there decision will have a node from uh discourse , and I guess why don't we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Of {disfmarker} of course .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Identified that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and so again re that 's completely correct , we have the user model , the situation model here , we don't have the discourse model here yet . Much the same way as we didn't {disfmarker} we don't have the ontology here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting , selling , and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Really .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So in some sense it 's {disfmarker} it 's there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But the discourse we don't have it represented at all yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um This be specific for second year ? Um And {disfmarker} and we probably will have uh something like a discourse for endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But if we do it 'll have the three values .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "It 'll have the EVA values if {disfmarker} if we have it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK just for starters and here discourse um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "For Go - there , probably is true and false , let 's say . That 's what we talked about .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um well , I think um we 're looking at the {disfmarker} the little data that we have , so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they wanna go there .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So this should sort of push it in one direction", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And sometimes um people say where is it", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because they wanna know where it is but in most cases they probably", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that doesn't change the fact that you 're {disfmarker} you want these two values .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , true . So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it 's either {pause} yep , yay , A , or nay . Yeah . OK ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And they 'll be a y uh , a user Go - there and maybe that 's all , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Situation Go - there , I mean , because it 's {disfmarker} whether it 's open or not .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That definitely interes", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But that now that kind of um what 's the word", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "um the {disfmarker} that interacts with the uh EVA thing if they just wanna view it then it 's fine to go there when it 's closed whereas if they want to um", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's where it starts getting to be uh uh essentially more interesting , so what uh Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they 're only going to view it then it doesn't matter whether it 's closed or not", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "in terms of uh uh you know , whether {disfmarker} whether you wanna go there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The time of day ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right I {disfmarker} well , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It does matter though if there 's like a strike or riot or something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right . So yeah , that 's what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this {disfmarker} that node by itself wouldn't distinguish", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well i i it can have di various values . Yeah , but we eh you {disfmarker} you 're right it might not be enough .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean , see I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking that any node that begins with \" Go - there \" is either gonna be true or false .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , what {disfmarker} Whoops .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah . I see that could be .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Also , that node , I mean the Go - there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "you know , there 's different things , the strikes and the", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Could be . Yeah . N", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Like situation traffic and so on .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , the time of day .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So {disfmarker} so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that uh there sh should be a link , and this is where things are gonna get very messy from the endpoint uh decision", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess the final", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "maybe the t they 're final re and , I guess the very bottom endpoint decision uh to the Go - there node . And I {disfmarker} don't worry about layout ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean then we 'll go {disfmarker} we 'll go nuts but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Maybe we could um have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go - there S node sort of fed into ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Could be , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right . Because that 's what we , I mean that 's why this situation comes up .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well the Go - there , actually the Endpoint node could feed {disfmarker} feed into the Go - there S That 's right ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so the Endpoint node ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "make that up t t to the Go - there then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and again we 'll have to do layout at some point , but something like that . Now it 's gonna be important not to have loops by the way . Uh really important in {disfmarker} in the belief worl net world not to have loops", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I was just gonna", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "How long does it take you to {disfmarker} to compute uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No it 's much worse than that . It {disfmarker} if i loo it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's not def i it 's not well defined if you 're there are loops ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} things don't converge , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "uh R recursive action ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there isn't uh OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh but this isn't , this is {disfmarker} this line is just coming from over here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , no it 's not a loop yet , I 'm just saying we {disfmarker} we , in no , in", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , but the good thing is we {disfmarker} we could have loopy belief propagation which {vocalsound} we all love .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . OK , so anyway , so that 's another decision . Uh what 's {disfmarker} what 's another decision you like ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , these have no parents yet , but I guess that sort of doesn't matter . Right ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , the idea is that you go there , you go comes from something about the user from something about the situation and the uh the discourse is {disfmarker} is a mystery .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean this is sort of This comes from traffic and so forth , yeah . Sh - Should we just make some", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure , if you want .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um if there 's parking maybe Mmm Oh who cares . OK . And if he has seen it already or not and so forth ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Um and discourse is something that sort of should we make a Keith note here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That sort of comes from Keith .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just sort of so we don't forget . Oops . Have to get used to this . OK , whoops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Um actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And then also the discourse endpoint , I {disfmarker} I guess endpoint sub - D is {disfmarker} if you wanna make it consistent .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Wh - ah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Um actually is this the {disfmarker} the right way to have it where um go there from the user and go there from the situation just sort of don't know about each other but they both feed the go there decision because isn't the , I mean", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think so . S", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh , hmm OK . But that still allows for the possibility of the {disfmarker} of the user model affecting our decision about whether a strike is the sort of thing which is going to keep this user away from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Maybe not , a Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} all that {disfmarker} that kind of decision making happens at the Go - there node .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh y you {disfmarker} yeah you {disfmarker} i you {disfmarker} if you needed to do that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh . If you needed it to do that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But uh OK I was just thinking I guess maybe I 'm conflating that user node with possible {disfmarker} possible asking of the user", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "you know hey there 's a strike on , uh does that affect whether or not you wanna go or something", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah . Good point , I don't {disfmarker} I don't know how we 're going to {disfmarker} t uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or Yeah , so that might not come out of a user model but , you know , directly out of interaction .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Uh I gu yes my curr you know , don't yeah yeah yeah that 's enough .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh My current idea on that would be that each of these decision nodes has questions associated with it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And the question wouldn't itself be one of these conditional things", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know , given that you know there 's a strike do you still wanna go ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But uh if you told him a bunch of stuff , then you would ask him do you wanna go ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I think trying to formulate the conditional question , that sounds too much .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right , right . Yeah . Right , sure , OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "To me .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright , but let me {disfmarker} let {disfmarker} let 's stay with this a minute", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "because I want to do a little bit of organization . Before we get more into details . The organization is going to be that uh the flavor of what 's going on is going to be that uh as we s e sort of going to this detail indeed Keith is going to {disfmarker} to worry about the various constructions that people might use", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and Johno has committed himself to being the parser wizard ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so what 's going to happen is that eventually like by the time he graduates , OK uh they 'll be some sort of system which is able to take the discourse in context and have outputs that can feed the rest of belief - net . I j wa I {disfmarker} I assume everybody knows that , I just wanna you know , get closure that that 'll be the game then ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so the semantics that you 'll get out of the discourse will be of values that go into the various discourse - based decision nodes . And now some of those will get fancier like mode of transportation and stuff so it isn't by any means uh necessarily a simple thing that you want out . So uh if there is an and there is mode of transportation", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And it there 's a sort of also a split if you loo if you blow this up and look at it in more detail there 's something that comes from the discourse in terms of what was actually just said what 's the utterance go giving us", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and then what 's the discourse history give us .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , well that , well , we 'll have to decide uh how much of th where that goes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's uh two things then .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "an and it 's not clear yet . I mean it could be those are two separate things , it could be that the discourse gadget itself integrates em as {disfmarker} which would be my guess that you 'd have to do see in order to do reference and stuff like that um you 've gotta have both the current discourse and the context to say I wanna go back there ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "wow , what does that mean and uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Now . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Alright . So", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But is th is this picture that 's emerging here just my wish that you have noticed already for symmetry or is it that we get for each {disfmarker} each decision on the very bottom we sort of get the sub - E , sub - D , sub - U and maybe a sub - O {disfmarker} \" O \" for \" ontology \" um meta node", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but it might just", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "It could be .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "could be", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is getting into the thing I wanna talk about next ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so this", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "which is s if that 's true uh how do we wanna combine those ? O or when it 's true ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but this eh w wou wou would be nice though that , you know , we only have at most four at the moment um arrows going f to each of the uh bottom decisions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And four you {disfmarker} we can handle .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It 's too much ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well i i it see i if it 's fou if it 's four things and each of them has four values it turns out to be a big CPT , it 's not s completely impossi I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not beyond what the system could solve but it 's probably beyond what we could actually uh write down . or learn .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right , true .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh but , you know it 's four to the fourth . It 's pretty big . Uh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two fifty - six ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "is that what that", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it 's and I don't think it 's gonna g e I don't think it 'll get worse than that by the way , so le that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a good", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but four {disfmarker} didn't we decide that all of these had true or false ? So is {disfmarker} it 's four", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh for go there , but not f but not for {disfmarker} the other one 's three values for endpoint already .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean you need actually three to the five because uh well I mean if {disfmarker} if it has four inputs and then it itself has three values", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so I mean it can get big fast .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um for endpoint ? No it 's {disfmarker} it 's sh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "EV - it 's the EVA .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah , down here , but this one only has two .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No it still has three ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Since ta they will still have three .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "EVA .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Each {disfmarker} so you 're uh uh from each point of view you 're making the same decision .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So from the point of view of the ob of the entity", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Want to view that , yeah yeah . C sl", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker} and also , I mean , the other places where , like for example consider endpoint view , it has inputs coming from user budget , user thrift", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so even", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Those are not necessarily binary . S so we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna have to use some t care in the knowledge engineering to not have this explode . And in fact I think it doesn't in the sense that um Read it , you know actually with the underlying semantics and stuff I think it isn't like you have two hundred and fifty - six different uh ways of {disfmarker} of thinking about whether this user wants to go to some place . Alright . So we {disfmarker} we just have to figure out what the regularities are and and code them . But um What I was gonna suggest next is maybe we wanna work on this a little longer but I do want to also talk about the thing that we started into now of uh well it 's all fine to say all these arrows come into the si same place what rule of combination is used there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So th yes they {disfmarker} so these things all affect it ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "how do they affect it ? And belief - nets have their own beliefs about uh what are good ways to do that . So is it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clearer n clear enough what the issue is ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? So do we wanna switch that now or we wanna do some more of this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "R basically w we just need to sort of in order to get some closure on this figure out how we 're gonna get this picture sort of uh completely messy .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , here {disfmarker} he here 's one of the things that {disfmarker} that I th you sh you {disfmarker} no , I don't know how easy it is to do this in the interface but you {disfmarker} it would be great if you could actually just display at a given time uh all the things that you pick up , you click on \" endpoint \" , OK and everything else fades", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and you just see the links that are relevant to that . And I does anybody remember the GUI on this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh d I would almost say the other way to do that would be to open u or make you know N - many belief - nets and then open them every time you wanted to look at a different one", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "vers cuz uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's probably pretty easy do it {disfmarker} to do it in HTML , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "HTML ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah I have each of these thing each of the end belief - nets be {disfmarker} be a page and then you click on the thing and then li consider that it 's respective ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well the b", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "anyway so uh it clear that even with this if we put in all the arrows nobody is gonna be able to read the diagram .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright , so e we have to figure out some eh eh uh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} let me consi suggest that 's a s not a first - order consideration , we have two first - order considerations which is what are the uh influences A , A , and B how do they get combined mathematically , how do we display them is an issue , but um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I don't , yeah I just don't think this has been designed to support something like that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , it might soon , if this is gonna be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to uh start modifying it for our purposes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , and Um I {disfmarker} that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into , but um we have to know what we want first . OK , so why don't you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what {disfmarker} what the choices might be for these ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So Ah , sorry . I guess that 's", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You can technically wear that as you 're talking .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's right , I guess I can do that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Darn .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Put it in your , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess this board works fine . So um recall the basic problem which is that um you have a belief - net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node . Right ? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it 's so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty - three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down . So what um helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set , right ? These are all like saying EV or A , right ? So it 's not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we wanna just take a combination of {disfmarker} we wanna view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we wanna sort of combine their decisions and create you know , um sorta weighted combination .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm . ROVER , the ROVER decision .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "The what decision ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "ROVER . All of their outputs combined to make a decision .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So the problem is to specify the uh so the conditional property of this given all those , right ? That 's the way belief - nets are defined , like each node given its parents , right ? So um that 's what we want , we want for example P of um let 's call this guy Y and let 's call these X - one , X - two XN , right . So we want probability that Y equals , you know , for example um E given that these guys are I 'll just refer to this as like X um hat or something , uh the co like all of them ? Given that for example the data says you know , A , V , A , E , or something right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So we would like to do this kind of combination .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Alright , so um Is that uh I {disfmarker} yeah , I just wanna make sure everybody is with us before he goes on .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think so , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's cl e is {disfmarker} is it clear what he wants to compute ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . So , right . So Basically um {vocalsound} what we don't wanna do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E , s give a number", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because that 's obviously not desirable . What we wanna do is find some principled way of um saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution , so we want it to um add up to one , right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So those are the two things that we uh need . So what uh I guess , what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we , you know view these guys as voting and we just take the uh we essentially take um averages , right ? So for example here two people have voted for A , one has voted for V , and one has voted for E , so we could say that the probabilities are , you know , probability of being E is one over four , because one person voted for E out of four and similarly , probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is um two out of four and probability of V is one out of four . Right ? So that 's step {disfmarker} that 's the uh yeah that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the basic uh thing . Now", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is that all OK ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And that one outcome , that 's", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "it 's X {disfmarker} X - one voted for A X - two voted for V", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and so forth ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Y right . Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things , which may or may not be a good assumption ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's the outcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So step two is um right . So we 've assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know , some w be that for example , what the um the actual the uh verbal content of what the person said , like what uh what might be uh somehow more uh important than the uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "X - one matters more i than X - two or", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . Sure , so we don't wanna like give them all equal weight so currently we 've been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by uh W - one , W - two , W - three , and W - four", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each um X - hat , we just need that the W 's sum to one . So they can be for example , you know you {disfmarker} you could have point one , point three , point two , and point four , say .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And that 'd be one . So that um also seems to work fine . And uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So I jus just to make sure I understand this , so in this case um we would still compute the average ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You 'd compute the weighted average , so the probability of E would be uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} so it 'd be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be uh {comment} W one times {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Point three .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or A or {disfmarker} let 's see , one full quarter times point one", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Not one quarter ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so these numbers have been replaced with point one , point three , point two , and point four . So you can view these as gone .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Probability of", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK . So , alright . So this is uh step two . So the next possibility is that um we 've given just a single weight to each expert , right , whereas it might be the case that um in certain situations one of the experts is more uh reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable . So the way this is handled is by what 's called a mixture of experts , so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called \" H \" , OK ? This is a hidden variable . And what this is is it gets its input from X - one , X - two , X - three , and X - four , and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation . Right ? And then these guys all come here . OK . So this is sightly uh more complicated . So what 's going on is that um this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these isn't likely to be more reliable or most reliable . So H produces some you know , it produces a number , either one , two , three , or four , in our situation , right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it 's two , and then he just selects the uh thing . That 's all there is to say , I guess about it . Right , so you can have a mixture that", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs . It 's driving how the other four are interpreted . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So H passes a vector on to the next node ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It could .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It could ? A vector of the weights as the se", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it could", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well a vector with three zero 's and one one , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh it 's basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it 's in or which one of the weighting systems", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right , so I mean the way you desc", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "W I was just , if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too , couldn't you ? OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha , beta , whatever , or is the {disfmarker} that 's determined by what the experts are saying , like the type of situ OK . Hmm . OK . OK . I mean It {disfmarker} it just seems that like without that {disfmarker} that outside input that you 've got a situation where , you know , like if {disfmarker} if uh X - one says no , you know , a low value coming out of X - on or i if X - one says no then ignore X - one , you know , I mean that seems like that 'd be weird ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , well could be things like if X - two and X - three say yes then i ignore X - one also .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? Oh , OK . OK . Alright , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh The situations that H has , are they built into the net or OK , so they {disfmarker} they could either be hand coded or learned or OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Based on training data , OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations . Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um Well , I mean to learn them we need data , where are we gonna get data ? Well I mean we need data with people intentions , right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Which is slightly tricky . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But what 's the data about like , are we able to get these nodes from the data ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Like how thrifty the user is , or do we have access to that ? Mm - hmm . Oh right . Oh good . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that 's my question , like how do we {disfmarker} I mean , how do we have data about something like um um endpoint sub - E , or endpoint sub uh {pause} you know s S ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , basically you would say , based on {disfmarker} in this dialogue that we have which one of the things that they said eh whether it was the entity relations or whatever was the thing that determined what mode it was ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So this is what we wanna learn . Yep . Right . Hmm . Yeah . I don't think , well you have a {disfmarker} can you bring up the function thing ? Um w where is the thing that allows you to sort of", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's on the added variable , isn't it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh function properties , is that it ? Hmm , I guess not . Yeah , that 's", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . OK . And um it so e either it 'll allow us to do everything which I think is unlikely , I think more likely it 'll allow us to do very few of these things and in that case we 'll have to um just write up little things that allow you to um create such CPU 's on your own in the java base format . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do because yeah I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do , it 's Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ah . Well in terms of java base I think it 's basically what you see is what you get in I don't yeah , I would be surprised if it supports anything more than what we have right here .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So Yeah . Yeah . By the way um uh just talking about uh about that general end of things uh is there gonna be data soon from what people say when they 're interacting with the system and so on ? Like , I mean , what kind of questions are being given {disfmarker} being asked ? Cuz {disfmarker} OK . Yeah yeah . OK . OK . Fey , you mean . OK . OK . O OK . OK . I 'm just wondering , because in terms of , you know , I mean uh w the figure {disfmarker} I was thinking about this figure that we talked about , fifty constructions or whatever that 's uh that 's a whole lot of constructions and um you know , I mean one might be f fairly pleased with getting a really good analysis of five maybe ten in a summer so , I mean I know we 're going for sort of a rough and ready . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK . OK . I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} uh I was talking about the , you know , if you wanted to do it really in detail and we don't really need all the detail for what we 're doing right now but anyway in terms of just narrowing that task you know which fifty do I do , I wanna see what people are using , so Well , it will inspire me . Right , sure sure . Right . Yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah . OK . Touche . Good enough .", "speaker": "Grad A" } ]

[ { "content": "Alright , so I 'm - I should read all of these numbers ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Piece of paper ? I could borrow ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so uh i um I don't know whether Ami 's coming or not um but I think we oughta just get started .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Nancy is uh currently in Berkeley but not here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Nancy 's still stick ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Don't know . Anyway", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , so there you go . Anyway , so my idea f for today and we can uh decide that that isn't the right thing to do was to at {disfmarker} spend at least part of the time trying to eh build the influence links , you know which sets of things are uh relevant to which decisions and actually I had uh specific s suggestion to start first with the path ones . The database ones being in some sense less interesting to us although probably have to be done and so to do that so there 's {disfmarker} and the idea was we were gonna do two things", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is your mike on ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ah . Oh right , well . Yeah . We were gonna do two things one of which is just lay out the influence structure of what we think influences what", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's funny .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and then as a uh separate but related task uh particularly Bhaskara and I were going to try to decide what kinds of belief nodes are needed in order to um do what we {disfmarker} what we need to do . Once so but du we should sort of have all of the uh basic design of what influences what done before we decide exactly how to compute it . So I didn't {disfmarker} did you get a chance to look at all {disfmarker} yet ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I looked at some of that stuff .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Great . OK so let 's start with the uh belief - nets , the general influence stuff and then we 'll {disfmarker} then we 'll also at some point break and talk about the techy stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I think one could go there 's I think we can di discuss everything . First of all this I added , I knew from sort of basically this has to be there right ? Um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh are you gonna go there or not ? Yeah , so one i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Given {disfmarker} given uh uh not transverse the castle , the decision is does the person want to go there or is it just", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right , true . Does have to be there . And I 'm sure we 'll find more as we go that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And Hmm ? So Go - there in the first place or not is definitely uh one of the basic ones . We can start with that . Interesting effect . Um Is this basically true or false or maybe we 'll get", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Which one ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "what ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "\" Go there \" .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "m right .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "so there is this question about", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Here we we actually get just probabilities ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "right for each down here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "When we 're {disfmarker} yeah when we 're done . So {disfmarker} so", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the reason it might not be true or false is that we did have this idea of when so it 's , you know uh current @ @ and so forth and so on or not at all ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "right ? And so that a decision would be do we want that so you could {disfmarker} two different things you could do , you could have all those values for Go - there or you could have Go - there be binary and given that you 're going there when .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "When . How .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Why ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So I 'll let", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "we 'll see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I mean it seems that you could um uh it seems that those things would be logically independent like you would wanna have them separate or binary , Go - there and then the {disfmarker} the possibilities of how to go there because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , that 's {disfmarker} let 's start that way .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because , you know it might be easy to figure out that this person is going to need more film eventually from their utterance but it 's much more complex to query when would be the most appropriate time .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Hmm . OK . And so I 've tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user ? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model - A . We should be be clear . But when it comes to sort of writing down when you {disfmarker} when you do these things is it here ? You sort of have to a write the values this can take .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And here I was really uh in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because um {disfmarker} this case it 's pretty simple , but as we will see the other ones um for example if it 's a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "How can I write here that this is something , a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK . Thus is understandable ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Think so .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So here for example .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "You 've s have you seen this before at all Keith , these belief - net things ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no , but I think I 'm following it . So far .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So here is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we had that the user 's budget may influence the outcome of decisions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK , h well I mean how is it different from user finance ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um the finance is sort of here thought of as {disfmarker} as the financial policy a person carries out in his life , he {disfmarker} is he cheap , average , or spendy ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um I didn't come uh maybe a user I don't know , I didn't want to write greediness , but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or cheapness .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Welcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "User thrift .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Welcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Thrift , that 's good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "There it is .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So Keith w what 's behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief - nets for you and stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So this is not just a display , this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we 'll wind up with a functioning belief - net at the other end .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And it 's so simple even I can use it .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Wow , that is simple .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so here was OK , I can think of uh people being cheap , average , or spendy or we can even have a {disfmarker} a finer scale moderately cheap ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Doesn't matter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "doesn't matter . Agree there but here um I wasn't sure what to write in .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Let 's {disfmarker} go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , I mean you 've written in {disfmarker} you 've written in what uh seems to be required like what else is {disfmarker} is do you want ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If that 's permissible then I 'm happy .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well yeah . So here 's {disfmarker} here 's what 's permissible is that you can arrange so that the um the value of that is gonna have to be updated and n it 's not a belief update , right ? It 's {disfmarker} you took some actions , you spent money and stuff , so the update of that is gonna have to be essentially external to the belief - net . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And then what you 're going to need is uh for the things that it influences . Well let 's {disfmarker} first of all let 's see if it does influence anything . And if it does influence anything then you 're gonna need something that converts from the {disfmarker} the number here to something that 's relevant to the decision there . So it could be ra they create different ranges that are relevant for different decisions or whatever {disfmarker} but for the moment this is just a node that is conditioned externally and might influence various things .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yeah {disfmarker} this is where um OK anyways let 's forget it .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well that 's fine . Well anyway , go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , and so this , oh that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "The other thing is that um every time that 's updated beliefs will have to be propagated but then the question is do you {disfmarker} do we wanna propagate beliefs every single time it 's updated or only when we need to ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's a good question . And uh does it have a lazy mode ? I don't remember .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh Well , I mean , in Srini 's thing there was this thing {disfmarker} there was this um option like proper inferences which suggests that uh doesn't happen , automatically .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh right . Yeah . S probably does . Yeah someone has to track that down , but I {disfmarker} but uh And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I think {disfmarker} actually uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I just accidentally Oops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "one of the we w items for the uh user home base uh should be uh essentially non - local . I they 're only there for the day and they don't have a place that they 're staying .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh just uh accidentally erased this , I {disfmarker} I just had values here such as uh um is he s we had in our list we had \" Is he staying in our hotel ? \" , \" Is he staying with friends ? \" , and so forth", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh so we 're OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So it 's clear where w w w where we are right now . So my suggestion is we just pick uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Something down here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "one , you know one uh particular one of the uh well let 's do the first {disfmarker} first one let 's do the one that we sort of already think we did so w that was the {disfmarker} of the endpoint ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . And um Oops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is hmm", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ah ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So it 's true or false ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . No no no , EVA .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Missed that one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What 's the difference between mode and endpoint ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I thought mode , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "although that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um mode was um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , that 's", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mode of transportation ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK . Also true or false .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No , he has he hasn't filled them in yet , is what 's true .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Did I or didn't I ? Ah . Probably nothing done yet , oh I just did it on the upper ones , OK . Makes sense . OK , so this was EVA . Maybe we can think of more things , cross", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Climb , rob .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "climb , emerge", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No no no , these are ju that 's just a point ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well some of those are subsumed by approach .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "this is ju", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Would it be an endpoint if you were crossing over it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The Charles Bridge , you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , would be a f for a given segment . You know , you {disfmarker} y you go {disfmarker} first go the town square", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I eh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I mean , if you go to re you know if you go to Prague or whatever one of your {disfmarker} your key points that you have to do is cross the Charles Bridge and doesn't really matter which way you cross which {disfmarker} where you end up at the end but the part {disfmarker} the good part is walking over it , so .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's subtle , but true . Anyway so let 's just leave it three {disfmarker} with three for now", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm , mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and let 's see if we can get it linked up just to get ourselves started .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , we", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "You 'll see it {disfmarker} you 'll see something comes up immediately , that the reason I wanna do this .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "w well the uh user was uh definitely more likely to enter if he 's a local", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "more likely to view if he 's a tourist um and then of course we had the fact that given the fact that he 's thrifty and there will be admission then we get all these cross um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "We did , but the three things w that {disfmarker} that it contributed to this in fact , the other two aren't up there . so one was the ontology", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We 'll d what type of building is it ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the third thing we talked about was something from the discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What he has mentioned before .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , so this is w Right , so what w I {disfmarker} what we seem to need here , this is why it starts getting into the technical stuff", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "the way we had been designing this , there were three intermediate nodes uh which were the endpoint decision as seen from the uh user model as seen from the ontology and as seen from the discourse . So each of those the way we had it designed , now we can change the design , but the design we had was there was a decision with the same three outcomes uh based on the th those three separate considerations", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so if we wanted to do that would have to put in uh three intermediate nodes", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh we can load it up it you know very simple .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and then what you and I have to talk about is , OK if we 're doing that and they get combined somehow uh how do they get combined ? But the {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're undoubtedly gonna be more things to worry about .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So this was adjusted for this one mode thing .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So that 's w w in our uh in {disfmarker} in Johno 's sort of pictogram everything that could contribute to whether a person wants to enter , view , or approach something .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , it was called mode , so this {disfmarker} this is m mode here means the same as endpoint .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is now this endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , why don't we ch can we change that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We can just rename that , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright . You know , but that was actually , yeah unfortunately that was a um kind of an intermediate versio that 's I don't think what we would currently do .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Can I ask about \" slurred \" and \" angry \" as inputs to this ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} why ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Like they 're either true or false", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The prosody ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and they uh oh I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If the {disfmarker} if the person talking is angry or slurs their speech they might be tired or , you know", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Drunk .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Therefore", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And , you know , possibly uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Less likely to enter .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "some ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "uh I was thinking less likely to view", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But that 's - that seems to , yeah . So {disfmarker} so my advice to do is {disfmarker} is get this down to what we think is actually likely to {disfmarker} to be a {disfmarker} a strong influence .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But yeah , that was what he had in mind .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So let 's think about this {disfmarker} this question of how do we wanna handle {disfmarker} so there 're two separate things . One is {disfmarker} uh at least two . One is how do we want to handle the notion of the ontology now what we talked about , and this is another technical thing Bhaskara , is uh can we arrange so that I think we can so that the belief - net itself has properties and the properties are filled in uh from on ontology items . So the {disfmarker} let 's take the case of the uh this endpoint thing , the notion was that if you had a few key properties like is this a tourist site , you know some kind of landmark is it a place of business uh is it something you physically could enter", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , et cetera . So that there 'd be certain properties that would fit into the decision node and then again as part of the ou outer controlling conditioning of this thing those would be set , so that some somehow someone would find this word , look it up in the ontology , pull out these properties , put it into the belief - net , and then the decision would flow .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Now", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Seems to me that we 've sort of e em embedded a lot , em embedded a lot of these uh things we had in there previously in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some of the other final decisions done here , for example if we would know that this thing is exhibiting something um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it 's exhibiting itself it is a landmark ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "meaning more likely to be viewed", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it is exhibiting pictures or sculptures and stuff like this , then it 's more likely to be entered .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I uh that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's completely right and um I think that 's good , right ? So what {disfmarker} what that says is that we might be able to uh take and in particular so {disfmarker} so the ones we talked about were uh exhibiting and selling", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Accessibility .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "no , accessibility meant", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If it 's closed one probably won't enter . Or if it 's not accessible to a tourist ever the likelihood of that person actually wanting to enter it ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "given that he knows it , of course .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright . So let me suggest this . Uh w could you move those up about halfway . Uh The ones that you th And selling I guess .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , all {disfmarker} all of these if it 's fixing things selling things , or servicing things", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . So here {disfmarker} here 's what it looks like to me . is that you want an intermediate structure which i uh is essentially the or of uh for this purpose of {disfmarker} of uh selling , f fixing , or servicing . So that it uh that is , for certain purposes , it becomes important but for this kind of purpose uh one of these places is quite like the other . Does that seem right ? So we di", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Basic you 're basically just merging those for just the sake of endpoint decision ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "if we Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} well it may be more than endpoint decisions , so the idea would be that you might wanna merge those three", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "These three ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Eh ser s uh selling , fixing , and servicing .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What ex um and so either those is true f or false ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh Uh well it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i here 's where it gets a little tricky .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh from the belief - net point of view it is from another point of view of course it 's interest it 's {disfmarker} it 's important to know what it 's selling or servicing and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So for this decision it 's just uh true or false", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and in th this is a case where the or seems just what you want .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} that if any of those things is true then it 's the kind of place that you uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um more likely to enter .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "are more likely to enter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So you just wanna have them all pointing to a summary thing ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You could , yeah . Yeah , so let 's do that . No no , no eh to {disfmarker} to an inter no , an intermediate node .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "T", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "That 's the p part of the idea , is", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um is {disfmarker} is that the object type node ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I d", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So are they the {disfmarker} is it the kind of object that sells , fixes , or services things ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , o open up object type and let 's see what its values are .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh I just created it , it has none so far .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , well OK first of all it 's not objects , we called them entities , right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And then we have sort of the um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Let 's say I put commercial .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I w I was just gonna commercial action inside where people p", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well couldn't I do {disfmarker} let 's do commercial uh landmark and", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And where was the accessible , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well accessible I think is different cuz that 's tempor that {disfmarker} that varies temporally ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "whereas this is a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What would a hotel fall under ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I would call that a service , but {disfmarker} but I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I mean in terms of entity type ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Say w w well it 's co I would s a a again for this purpose I think it 's commercial . Someplace you want to go in to do some kind of business .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um what does the underscore - T at the end of each of those things signify ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um things . So places that service things sell things or fix things and pe places that e exhibit things .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK . OK . That also points to entity type I guess .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So we 're deriving um this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this feature of whether the {disfmarker} the main action at this place happens inside or outside or what we 're deriving that from what kind of activity is done there ? Couldn't you have it as just a primitive feature of the entity ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well you could , that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a choice .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean it seems like that 's much more reliable cuz you could have outdoor places that sell things and you know indoor places that do something else", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , the problem with it is that it sort of putting in a feature just for one decision ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "now w we may wind up having to do that this i anyway , this i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "at a mental level that 's what we we 're gonna have to sort out .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So , you know what does this look like , what are {disfmarker} what are uh intermediate things that are worth computing , what are the features we need in order to make all these decisions", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and what 's the best way to organize this so that um it 's clean and {disfmarker} and consistent and all that sort of stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . I 'm just thinking about how people , human beings who know about places and places to go and so on would store this and it would probably {disfmarker} you wouldn't just sort of remember that they sell stuff and then deduce from that that it must be going on inside or something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I think an entity maybe should be regard as a vector of several possible things , it can either em do s do sell things , fix things , service things , exhibit things , it can be a landmark at the same time as doing these things ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it 's not either or mmm certainly a place can be a hotel and a famous site .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Many come to mind . Things can be generally um a landmark and be accessible . IE a {disfmarker} a castle or can be a landmark a or not accessible , some statue", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know can go inside .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK . Anyway so let me suggest you do something else . Uh which is to get rid {disfmarker} get rid of that l long link between who {disfmarker} the user and the endpoint .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Could we just move it like this ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No no , I don't want the link there at all .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Because what we 're gonna want is an intermediate thing which is uh the endpoint decisi the endpoint decision based o on the user models , so what we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} what we talked about is three separate endpoint decisions , so let 's make a new node", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Just as a suggestion maybe you could \" save as \" to keep your old one nice and clean and so you can mess with this one .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm . The old one was not that not that important , I think but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , well , not a big deal then .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's do it then .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the {disfmarker} Isn't there a \" save as \" inside of java base ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But I can just take this", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "copy it somewhere else . This was user something", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well this was", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh let 's p put it this {disfmarker} let 's do endpoint underbar - U .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "end point ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "i endpoint , e end poi this is sa", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "it 's the endpoint", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Gotcha , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "let 's say underbar - U , so that 's the endpoint decision uh as seen through the", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "As related from the user model .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . So let 's {disfmarker} let 's actually yeah so lin you can link that up to the", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Should I rename this {pause} too ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh yeah , so that , I guess that 's endpoint uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": " It 's underscore - E .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "underscore - E for entity , and we may change all this , but . Right . And", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , shouldn't I be able to move them all ? No . Or {disfmarker} ? Can I ? Where ? What ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh I d eh I don't know . Actually , I guess the easiest thing would move {disfmarker} mo move the endpoint , well , go ahead . Just do whatever .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Wasn't this possible ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I think you have to be in move mode before", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Good . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So now we 're looking for user related things that um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . And uh maybe th maybe it 's just one who is the user , I don't know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe there 's more .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well if he 's usi if he 's in a car right now what was that people with Harry drove the car into the cafe", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Never mind . Uh anyway , this is crude . Now but the {disfmarker} now so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but then the question is uh so {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and we assume that some of these properties would come indirectly through an ontology , but then we had this third idea of input from the discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} should we finish this ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean but surely the user interests", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The user thrift , the user budget .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , maybe , I again , I d well , OK , put em in but what we 're gonna wanna do is actually uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Here this was one of my problems we have the user interest is a {disfmarker} is a vector of five hundred values , so um That 's from the user model ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh you mean level of interest ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "mm - hmm , no not levels of interest but things you can be interested in .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "somebody else has built this user model .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh I see ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Gothic churches versus Baroque townhouses versus", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "right . So why is it oh it , so it 's like a vector of five hundred one 's or zero 's ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yea - n is that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Like for each thing are we {disfmarker} are you interested in it or not ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yeah uh I {disfmarker} I think", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So uh you cou and so here let me give you two ways to handle that . Alright ? One is um you could ignore it . But the other thing you could do is have an {disfmarker} and this will give you the flavor of the {disfmarker} of what you could have a node that 's {disfmarker} that was a measure of the match between the object 's feature , you know , the match between the object the entity , I 'm sorry and the user .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So you could have a k a \" fit \" node and again that would have to be computed by someone else", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but uh so that uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just as a mental note uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's all .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} and should we say that this interests eh affects the likelihood of {disfmarker} of entering ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , we could .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And also if it 's an expensive place to enter , this may also", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Budget .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "User schedule . \" Do I have time to go in and climb all the way to the top of the Koelner Dome {comment} or do I just have to {disfmarker} \" \" time to take a picture of the outside ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Schedule ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It seems like everything in a user model a affects {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well that 's what we don't wanna do , see that {disfmarker} se cuz then we get into huge combinatorics and stuff like that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "an", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Cuz if the , I mean , and if the user is tired , the user state ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right , it would affect stuff , but I can't see why e anything w everything in the model wouldn't be", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} we can't do that , so we we 're gonna have to", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but this is a good discussion , we 're gonna have to somehow figure out uh some way to encapsulate that uh so if there 's some general notion of for example the uh relation to the time to do this to the amount of time the guy has or something like that is {disfmarker} is the uh compatibility with his current state , so that 's what you 'd have to do , you 'd have to get it down to something which uh was itself relatively compact , so it could be compatibility with his current state which would include his money and his time and {disfmarker} and his energy", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , just seems like it 'd push the problem back a level .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It does .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No but , it 's more than that , like the {disfmarker} the more sort of you break it up like because if you have everything pointing to one node it 's like exponential whereas if you like keep breaking it up more and more it 's not exponential anymore .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So it yeah , there are two advantages . That 's tha there 's one technical one", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Sh - sh yeah , {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and the other is it {disfmarker} it gets used", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "S so we 'd basically be doing subgrouping ? Subgrouping , basically into mo", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so basically make it more tree like going backwards ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . But it {disfmarker} there 's two advantages , one is the technical one that you don't wind up with such big exponential uh CBT 's ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Bhaskara ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "the other is it can be {disfmarker} it presumably can be used for multiple decisions .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So that if you have this idea of the compatibility with the requirements of an action to the state of the user one could well imagine that that was u", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "not only is it sim is it cleaner to compute it separately but it could be that it 's used in multiple places . Anyway th so in general this is the design , this is really design problem .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , you 've got a signal , a d set of decisions um how do we do this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What do I have under user state anyhow cuz I named that already something . Oh that 's tired , fresh , yeah . Maybe should be renamed into physical state .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Or fat user fatigue even .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's with a \" G \" ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": " Whatever .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Then we can make a user state .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What 's th what we 're talking about is compatibility . Uh or something , I don't know , but .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess the {disfmarker} the question uh is It 's hard for me to imagine how everything wouldn't just contribute to user state again . Or user compatibility .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh but the thing is that we uh uh we had some things that uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That don't .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "that don't", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The user interests and the user who {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who the user is are completely apart from the fact whether he is tired broke", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure , but other {disfmarker} I thought though the node we 're creating right now is user compatibility to the current action , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "the right", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Seems like everything in the user model would contribute to whether or not the user was compatible with something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh maybe not . I mean the {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} the issue is um would Even if it was true in some abstract general sense it might not be true in terms of the information we actually had and can make use of . And anyway we 're gonna have to find some way to cl uh get this sufficiently simple to make it feasible .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Maybe um if we look at the {disfmarker} if we split it up again into sort of um if we look at the uh the endpoint again we {disfmarker} we said that for each of these things there are certain preconditions so you can only enter a place if you are not too tired to do so and also eh have the money to do so if it costs something so if you can afford it and perform it is preconditions . Viewing usually is cheap or free .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is that always true ? I don't know .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , with the way we 're defining it I think yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "W w but that eh viewing it without ent yeah view w with our definition of view it 's free cuz you", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And so is approaching .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well what about the Grand Canyon , right ? No , never mind . I mean are there {disfmarker} are there large things that you would have to pay to get up close to like , I mean never mind , not in the current {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No we have to enter the park .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Eh almost by definition um paying involves entering ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "ge going through some", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Right , sure .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Uh So let me suggest we switch to another one , I mean clearly there 's more work to be done on this", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but I think it 's gonna be more instructive to {disfmarker} to think about uh other decisions that we need to make in path land . And what they 're gonna look like .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So you can save this one as and open up the old one , right and {disfmarker} and then everything would be clean . You could do it again .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why , I think it 's worth saving this one but I think I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to keep this one", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "cuz I wanna see if {disfmarker} if we 're gonna reuse any of this stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um so this might be What next ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well you tell me , so in terms of the uh planner what 's {disfmarker} what 's a good one to do ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} th this go there or not I think is a good one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is a very basic one . So what makes things more likely that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the fir see the first thing is , getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So Keith this is gonna get into your world because uh we 're gonna want to know you know , which constructions indicate various of these properties", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "s and so I {disfmarker} I don't yet know how to do this , I guess we 're gonna wind up pulling out uh discourse properties like we have object properties and we don't know what they are yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that the Go - there decision will have a node from uh discourse , and I guess why don't we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Of {disfmarker} of course .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Identified that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and so again re that 's completely correct , we have the user model , the situation model here , we don't have the discourse model here yet . Much the same way as we didn't {disfmarker} we don't have the ontology here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting , selling , and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Really .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So in some sense it 's {disfmarker} it 's there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But the discourse we don't have it represented at all yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um This be specific for second year ? Um And {disfmarker} and we probably will have uh something like a discourse for endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But if we do it 'll have the three values .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "It 'll have the EVA values if {disfmarker} if we have it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK just for starters and here discourse um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "For Go - there , probably is true and false , let 's say . That 's what we talked about .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um well , I think um we 're looking at the {disfmarker} the little data that we have , so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they wanna go there .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So this should sort of push it in one direction", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And sometimes um people say where is it", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because they wanna know where it is but in most cases they probably", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that doesn't change the fact that you 're {disfmarker} you want these two values .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , true . So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it 's either {pause} yep , yay , A , or nay . Yeah . OK ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And they 'll be a y uh , a user Go - there and maybe that 's all , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Situation Go - there , I mean , because it 's {disfmarker} whether it 's open or not .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That definitely interes", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But that now that kind of um what 's the word", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "um the {disfmarker} that interacts with the uh EVA thing if they just wanna view it then it 's fine to go there when it 's closed whereas if they want to um", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's where it starts getting to be uh uh essentially more interesting , so what uh Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they 're only going to view it then it doesn't matter whether it 's closed or not", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "in terms of uh uh you know , whether {disfmarker} whether you wanna go there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The time of day ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right I {disfmarker} well , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It does matter though if there 's like a strike or riot or something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right . So yeah , that 's what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this {disfmarker} that node by itself wouldn't distinguish", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well i i it can have di various values . Yeah , but we eh you {disfmarker} you 're right it might not be enough .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean , see I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking that any node that begins with \" Go - there \" is either gonna be true or false .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , what {disfmarker} Whoops .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah . I see that could be .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Also , that node , I mean the Go - there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "you know , there 's different things , the strikes and the", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Could be . Yeah . N", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Like situation traffic and so on .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , the time of day .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So {disfmarker} so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that uh there sh should be a link , and this is where things are gonna get very messy from the endpoint uh decision", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess the final", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "maybe the t they 're final re and , I guess the very bottom endpoint decision uh to the Go - there node . And I {disfmarker} don't worry about layout ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean then we 'll go {disfmarker} we 'll go nuts but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Maybe we could um have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go - there S node sort of fed into ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Could be , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right . Because that 's what we , I mean that 's why this situation comes up .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well the Go - there , actually the Endpoint node could feed {disfmarker} feed into the Go - there S That 's right ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so the Endpoint node ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "make that up t t to the Go - there then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and again we 'll have to do layout at some point , but something like that . Now it 's gonna be important not to have loops by the way . Uh really important in {disfmarker} in the belief worl net world not to have loops", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I was just gonna", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "How long does it take you to {disfmarker} to compute uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No it 's much worse than that . It {disfmarker} if i loo it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's not def i it 's not well defined if you 're there are loops ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} things don't converge , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "uh R recursive action ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there isn't uh OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh but this isn't , this is {disfmarker} this line is just coming from over here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , no it 's not a loop yet , I 'm just saying we {disfmarker} we , in no , in", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , but the good thing is we {disfmarker} we could have loopy belief propagation which {vocalsound} we all love .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . OK , so anyway , so that 's another decision . Uh what 's {disfmarker} what 's another decision you like ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , these have no parents yet , but I guess that sort of doesn't matter . Right ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , the idea is that you go there , you go comes from something about the user from something about the situation and the uh the discourse is {disfmarker} is a mystery .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean this is sort of This comes from traffic and so forth , yeah . Sh - Should we just make some", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure , if you want .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um if there 's parking maybe Mmm Oh who cares . OK . And if he has seen it already or not and so forth ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Um and discourse is something that sort of should we make a Keith note here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That sort of comes from Keith .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just sort of so we don't forget . Oops . Have to get used to this . OK , whoops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Um actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And then also the discourse endpoint , I {disfmarker} I guess endpoint sub - D is {disfmarker} if you wanna make it consistent .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Wh - ah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Um actually is this the {disfmarker} the right way to have it where um go there from the user and go there from the situation just sort of don't know about each other but they both feed the go there decision because isn't the , I mean", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think so . S", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh , hmm OK . But that still allows for the possibility of the {disfmarker} of the user model affecting our decision about whether a strike is the sort of thing which is going to keep this user away from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Maybe not , a Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} all that {disfmarker} that kind of decision making happens at the Go - there node .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh y you {disfmarker} yeah you {disfmarker} i you {disfmarker} if you needed to do that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh . If you needed it to do that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But uh OK I was just thinking I guess maybe I 'm conflating that user node with possible {disfmarker} possible asking of the user", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "you know hey there 's a strike on , uh does that affect whether or not you wanna go or something", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah . Good point , I don't {disfmarker} I don't know how we 're going to {disfmarker} t uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or Yeah , so that might not come out of a user model but , you know , directly out of interaction .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Uh I gu yes my curr you know , don't yeah yeah yeah that 's enough .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh My current idea on that would be that each of these decision nodes has questions associated with it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And the question wouldn't itself be one of these conditional things", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know , given that you know there 's a strike do you still wanna go ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But uh if you told him a bunch of stuff , then you would ask him do you wanna go ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I think trying to formulate the conditional question , that sounds too much .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right , right . Yeah . Right , sure , OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "To me .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright , but let me {disfmarker} let {disfmarker} let 's stay with this a minute", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "because I want to do a little bit of organization . Before we get more into details . The organization is going to be that uh the flavor of what 's going on is going to be that uh as we s e sort of going to this detail indeed Keith is going to {disfmarker} to worry about the various constructions that people might use", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and Johno has committed himself to being the parser wizard ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so what 's going to happen is that eventually like by the time he graduates , OK uh they 'll be some sort of system which is able to take the discourse in context and have outputs that can feed the rest of belief - net . I j wa I {disfmarker} I assume everybody knows that , I just wanna you know , get closure that that 'll be the game then ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so the semantics that you 'll get out of the discourse will be of values that go into the various discourse - based decision nodes . And now some of those will get fancier like mode of transportation and stuff so it isn't by any means uh necessarily a simple thing that you want out . So uh if there is an and there is mode of transportation", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And it there 's a sort of also a split if you loo if you blow this up and look at it in more detail there 's something that comes from the discourse in terms of what was actually just said what 's the utterance go giving us", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and then what 's the discourse history give us .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , well that , well , we 'll have to decide uh how much of th where that goes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's uh two things then .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "an and it 's not clear yet . I mean it could be those are two separate things , it could be that the discourse gadget itself integrates em as {disfmarker} which would be my guess that you 'd have to do see in order to do reference and stuff like that um you 've gotta have both the current discourse and the context to say I wanna go back there ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "wow , what does that mean and uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Now . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Alright . So", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But is th is this picture that 's emerging here just my wish that you have noticed already for symmetry or is it that we get for each {disfmarker} each decision on the very bottom we sort of get the sub - E , sub - D , sub - U and maybe a sub - O {disfmarker} \" O \" for \" ontology \" um meta node", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but it might just", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "It could be .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "could be", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is getting into the thing I wanna talk about next ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so this", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "which is s if that 's true uh how do we wanna combine those ? O or when it 's true ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but this eh w wou wou would be nice though that , you know , we only have at most four at the moment um arrows going f to each of the uh bottom decisions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And four you {disfmarker} we can handle .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It 's too much ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well i i it see i if it 's fou if it 's four things and each of them has four values it turns out to be a big CPT , it 's not s completely impossi I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not beyond what the system could solve but it 's probably beyond what we could actually uh write down . or learn .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right , true .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh but , you know it 's four to the fourth . It 's pretty big . Uh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two fifty - six ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "is that what that", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it 's and I don't think it 's gonna g e I don't think it 'll get worse than that by the way , so le that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a good", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but four {disfmarker} didn't we decide that all of these had true or false ? So is {disfmarker} it 's four", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh for go there , but not f but not for {disfmarker} the other one 's three values for endpoint already .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean you need actually three to the five because uh well I mean if {disfmarker} if it has four inputs and then it itself has three values", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so I mean it can get big fast .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um for endpoint ? No it 's {disfmarker} it 's sh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "EV - it 's the EVA .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah , down here , but this one only has two .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No it still has three ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Since ta they will still have three .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "EVA .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Each {disfmarker} so you 're uh uh from each point of view you 're making the same decision .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So from the point of view of the ob of the entity", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Want to view that , yeah yeah . C sl", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker} and also , I mean , the other places where , like for example consider endpoint view , it has inputs coming from user budget , user thrift", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so even", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Those are not necessarily binary . S so we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna have to use some t care in the knowledge engineering to not have this explode . And in fact I think it doesn't in the sense that um Read it , you know actually with the underlying semantics and stuff I think it isn't like you have two hundred and fifty - six different uh ways of {disfmarker} of thinking about whether this user wants to go to some place . Alright . So we {disfmarker} we just have to figure out what the regularities are and and code them . But um What I was gonna suggest next is maybe we wanna work on this a little longer but I do want to also talk about the thing that we started into now of uh well it 's all fine to say all these arrows come into the si same place what rule of combination is used there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So th yes they {disfmarker} so these things all affect it ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "how do they affect it ? And belief - nets have their own beliefs about uh what are good ways to do that . So is it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clearer n clear enough what the issue is ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? So do we wanna switch that now or we wanna do some more of this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "R basically w we just need to sort of in order to get some closure on this figure out how we 're gonna get this picture sort of uh completely messy .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , here {disfmarker} he here 's one of the things that {disfmarker} that I th you sh you {disfmarker} no , I don't know how easy it is to do this in the interface but you {disfmarker} it would be great if you could actually just display at a given time uh all the things that you pick up , you click on \" endpoint \" , OK and everything else fades", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and you just see the links that are relevant to that . And I does anybody remember the GUI on this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh d I would almost say the other way to do that would be to open u or make you know N - many belief - nets and then open them every time you wanted to look at a different one", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "vers cuz uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's probably pretty easy do it {disfmarker} to do it in HTML , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "HTML ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah I have each of these thing each of the end belief - nets be {disfmarker} be a page and then you click on the thing and then li consider that it 's respective ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well the b", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "anyway so uh it clear that even with this if we put in all the arrows nobody is gonna be able to read the diagram .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright , so e we have to figure out some eh eh uh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} let me consi suggest that 's a s not a first - order consideration , we have two first - order considerations which is what are the uh influences A , A , and B how do they get combined mathematically , how do we display them is an issue , but um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I don't , yeah I just don't think this has been designed to support something like that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , it might soon , if this is gonna be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to uh start modifying it for our purposes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , and Um I {disfmarker} that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into , but um we have to know what we want first . OK , so why don't you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what {disfmarker} what the choices might be for these ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So Ah , sorry . I guess that 's", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You can technically wear that as you 're talking .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's right , I guess I can do that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Darn .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Put it in your , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess this board works fine . So um recall the basic problem which is that um you have a belief - net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node . Right ? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it 's so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty - three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down . So what um helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set , right ? These are all like saying EV or A , right ? So it 's not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we wanna just take a combination of {disfmarker} we wanna view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we wanna sort of combine their decisions and create you know , um sorta weighted combination .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm . ROVER , the ROVER decision .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "The what decision ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "ROVER . All of their outputs combined to make a decision .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So the problem is to specify the uh so the conditional property of this given all those , right ? That 's the way belief - nets are defined , like each node given its parents , right ? So um that 's what we want , we want for example P of um let 's call this guy Y and let 's call these X - one , X - two XN , right . So we want probability that Y equals , you know , for example um E given that these guys are I 'll just refer to this as like X um hat or something , uh the co like all of them ? Given that for example the data says you know , A , V , A , E , or something right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So we would like to do this kind of combination .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Alright , so um Is that uh I {disfmarker} yeah , I just wanna make sure everybody is with us before he goes on .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think so , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's cl e is {disfmarker} is it clear what he wants to compute ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . So , right . So Basically um {vocalsound} what we don't wanna do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E , s give a number", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because that 's obviously not desirable . What we wanna do is find some principled way of um saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution , so we want it to um add up to one , right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So those are the two things that we uh need . So what uh I guess , what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we , you know view these guys as voting and we just take the uh we essentially take um averages , right ? So for example here two people have voted for A , one has voted for V , and one has voted for E , so we could say that the probabilities are , you know , probability of being E is one over four , because one person voted for E out of four and similarly , probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is um two out of four and probability of V is one out of four . Right ? So that 's step {disfmarker} that 's the uh yeah that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the basic uh thing . Now", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is that all OK ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And that one outcome , that 's", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "it 's X {disfmarker} X - one voted for A X - two voted for V", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and so forth ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Y right . Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things , which may or may not be a good assumption ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's the outcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So step two is um right . So we 've assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know , some w be that for example , what the um the actual the uh verbal content of what the person said , like what uh what might be uh somehow more uh important than the uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "X - one matters more i than X - two or", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . Sure , so we don't wanna like give them all equal weight so currently we 've been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by uh W - one , W - two , W - three , and W - four", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each um X - hat , we just need that the W 's sum to one . So they can be for example , you know you {disfmarker} you could have point one , point three , point two , and point four , say .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And that 'd be one . So that um also seems to work fine . And uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So I jus just to make sure I understand this , so in this case um we would still compute the average ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You 'd compute the weighted average , so the probability of E would be uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} so it 'd be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be uh {comment} W one times {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Point three .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or A or {disfmarker} let 's see , one full quarter times point one", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Not one quarter ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so these numbers have been replaced with point one , point three , point two , and point four . So you can view these as gone .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Probability of", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK . So , alright . So this is uh step two . So the next possibility is that um we 've given just a single weight to each expert , right , whereas it might be the case that um in certain situations one of the experts is more uh reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable . So the way this is handled is by what 's called a mixture of experts , so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called \" H \" , OK ? This is a hidden variable . And what this is is it gets its input from X - one , X - two , X - three , and X - four , and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation . Right ? And then these guys all come here . OK . So this is sightly uh more complicated . So what 's going on is that um this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these isn't likely to be more reliable or most reliable . So H produces some you know , it produces a number , either one , two , three , or four , in our situation , right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it 's two , and then he just selects the uh thing . That 's all there is to say , I guess about it . Right , so you can have a mixture that", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs . It 's driving how the other four are interpreted . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So H passes a vector on to the next node ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It could .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It could ? A vector of the weights as the se", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it could", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well a vector with three zero 's and one one , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh it 's basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it 's in or which one of the weighting systems", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right , so I mean the way you desc", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "W I was just , if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too , couldn't you ? OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha , beta , whatever , or is the {disfmarker} that 's determined by what the experts are saying , like the type of situ OK . Hmm . OK . OK . I mean It {disfmarker} it just seems that like without that {disfmarker} that outside input that you 've got a situation where , you know , like if {disfmarker} if uh X - one says no , you know , a low value coming out of X - on or i if X - one says no then ignore X - one , you know , I mean that seems like that 'd be weird ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , well could be things like if X - two and X - three say yes then i ignore X - one also .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? Oh , OK . OK . Alright , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh The situations that H has , are they built into the net or OK , so they {disfmarker} they could either be hand coded or learned or OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Based on training data , OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations . Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um Well , I mean to learn them we need data , where are we gonna get data ? Well I mean we need data with people intentions , right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Which is slightly tricky . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But what 's the data about like , are we able to get these nodes from the data ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Like how thrifty the user is , or do we have access to that ? Mm - hmm . Oh right . Oh good . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that 's my question , like how do we {disfmarker} I mean , how do we have data about something like um um endpoint sub - E , or endpoint sub uh {pause} you know s S ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , basically you would say , based on {disfmarker} in this dialogue that we have which one of the things that they said eh whether it was the entity relations or whatever was the thing that determined what mode it was ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So this is what we wanna learn . Yep . Right . Hmm . Yeah . I don't think , well you have a {disfmarker} can you bring up the function thing ? Um w where is the thing that allows you to sort of", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's on the added variable , isn't it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh function properties , is that it ? Hmm , I guess not . Yeah , that 's", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . OK . And um it so e either it 'll allow us to do everything which I think is unlikely , I think more likely it 'll allow us to do very few of these things and in that case we 'll have to um just write up little things that allow you to um create such CPU 's on your own in the java base format . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do because yeah I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do , it 's Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ah . Well in terms of java base I think it 's basically what you see is what you get in I don't yeah , I would be surprised if it supports anything more than what we have right here .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So Yeah . Yeah . By the way um uh just talking about uh about that general end of things uh is there gonna be data soon from what people say when they 're interacting with the system and so on ? Like , I mean , what kind of questions are being given {disfmarker} being asked ? Cuz {disfmarker} OK . Yeah yeah . OK . OK . Fey , you mean . OK . OK . O OK . OK . I 'm just wondering , because in terms of , you know , I mean uh w the figure {disfmarker} I was thinking about this figure that we talked about , fifty constructions or whatever that 's uh that 's a whole lot of constructions and um you know , I mean one might be f fairly pleased with getting a really good analysis of five maybe ten in a summer so , I mean I know we 're going for sort of a rough and ready . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK . OK . I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} uh I was talking about the , you know , if you wanted to do it really in detail and we don't really need all the detail for what we 're doing right now but anyway in terms of just narrowing that task you know which fifty do I do , I wanna see what people are using , so Well , it will inspire me . Right , sure sure . Right . Yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah . OK . Touche . Good enough .", "speaker": "Grad A" } ]

[ { "content": "Alright , so I 'm - I should read all of these numbers ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Piece of paper ? I could borrow ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so uh i um I don't know whether Ami 's coming or not um but I think we oughta just get started .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Nancy is uh currently in Berkeley but not here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Nancy 's still stick ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Don't know . Anyway", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , so there you go . Anyway , so my idea f for today and we can uh decide that that isn't the right thing to do was to at {disfmarker} spend at least part of the time trying to eh build the influence links , you know which sets of things are uh relevant to which decisions and actually I had uh specific s suggestion to start first with the path ones . The database ones being in some sense less interesting to us although probably have to be done and so to do that so there 's {disfmarker} and the idea was we were gonna do two things", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is your mike on ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ah . Oh right , well . Yeah . We were gonna do two things one of which is just lay out the influence structure of what we think influences what", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's funny .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and then as a uh separate but related task uh particularly Bhaskara and I were going to try to decide what kinds of belief nodes are needed in order to um do what we {disfmarker} what we need to do . Once so but du we should sort of have all of the uh basic design of what influences what done before we decide exactly how to compute it . So I didn't {disfmarker} did you get a chance to look at all {disfmarker} yet ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I looked at some of that stuff .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Great . OK so let 's start with the uh belief - nets , the general influence stuff and then we 'll {disfmarker} then we 'll also at some point break and talk about the techy stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I think one could go there 's I think we can di discuss everything . First of all this I added , I knew from sort of basically this has to be there right ? Um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh are you gonna go there or not ? Yeah , so one i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Given {disfmarker} given uh uh not transverse the castle , the decision is does the person want to go there or is it just", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right , true . Does have to be there . And I 'm sure we 'll find more as we go that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And Hmm ? So Go - there in the first place or not is definitely uh one of the basic ones . We can start with that . Interesting effect . Um Is this basically true or false or maybe we 'll get", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Which one ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "what ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "\" Go there \" .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "m right .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "so there is this question about", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Here we we actually get just probabilities ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "right for each down here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "When we 're {disfmarker} yeah when we 're done . So {disfmarker} so", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} the reason it might not be true or false is that we did have this idea of when so it 's , you know uh current @ @ and so forth and so on or not at all ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "right ? And so that a decision would be do we want that so you could {disfmarker} two different things you could do , you could have all those values for Go - there or you could have Go - there be binary and given that you 're going there when .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "When . How .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Why ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So I 'll let", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "we 'll see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I mean it seems that you could um uh it seems that those things would be logically independent like you would wanna have them separate or binary , Go - there and then the {disfmarker} the possibilities of how to go there because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , that 's {disfmarker} let 's start that way .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because , you know it might be easy to figure out that this person is going to need more film eventually from their utterance but it 's much more complex to query when would be the most appropriate time .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Hmm . OK . And so I 've tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user ? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model - A . We should be be clear . But when it comes to sort of writing down when you {disfmarker} when you do these things is it here ? You sort of have to a write the values this can take .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And here I was really uh in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because um {disfmarker} this case it 's pretty simple , but as we will see the other ones um for example if it 's a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "How can I write here that this is something , a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK . Thus is understandable ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Think so .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So here for example .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "You 've s have you seen this before at all Keith , these belief - net things ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no , but I think I 'm following it . So far .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So here is the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} we had that the user 's budget may influence the outcome of decisions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK , h well I mean how is it different from user finance ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um the finance is sort of here thought of as {disfmarker} as the financial policy a person carries out in his life , he {disfmarker} is he cheap , average , or spendy ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um I didn't come uh maybe a user I don't know , I didn't want to write greediness , but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or cheapness .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Welcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "User thrift .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Welcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Thrift , that 's good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Great .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "There it is .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . So Keith w what 's behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief - nets for you and stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So this is not just a display , this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we 'll wind up with a functioning belief - net at the other end .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And it 's so simple even I can use it .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Wow , that is simple .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , so here was OK , I can think of uh people being cheap , average , or spendy or we can even have a {disfmarker} a finer scale moderately cheap ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Doesn't matter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "doesn't matter . Agree there but here um I wasn't sure what to write in .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Let 's {disfmarker} go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , I mean you 've written in {disfmarker} you 've written in what uh seems to be required like what else is {disfmarker} is do you want ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If that 's permissible then I 'm happy .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well yeah . So here 's {disfmarker} here 's what 's permissible is that you can arrange so that the um the value of that is gonna have to be updated and n it 's not a belief update , right ? It 's {disfmarker} you took some actions , you spent money and stuff , so the update of that is gonna have to be essentially external to the belief - net . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And then what you 're going to need is uh for the things that it influences . Well let 's {disfmarker} first of all let 's see if it does influence anything . And if it does influence anything then you 're gonna need something that converts from the {disfmarker} the number here to something that 's relevant to the decision there . So it could be ra they create different ranges that are relevant for different decisions or whatever {disfmarker} but for the moment this is just a node that is conditioned externally and might influence various things .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yeah {disfmarker} this is where um OK anyways let 's forget it .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well that 's fine . Well anyway , go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , and so this , oh that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "The other thing is that um every time that 's updated beliefs will have to be propagated but then the question is do you {disfmarker} do we wanna propagate beliefs every single time it 's updated or only when we need to ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's a good question . And uh does it have a lazy mode ? I don't remember .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh Well , I mean , in Srini 's thing there was this thing {disfmarker} there was this um option like proper inferences which suggests that uh doesn't happen , automatically .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh right . Yeah . S probably does . Yeah someone has to track that down , but I {disfmarker} but uh And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and I think {disfmarker} actually uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I just accidentally Oops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "one of the we w items for the uh user home base uh should be uh essentially non - local . I they 're only there for the day and they don't have a place that they 're staying .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh just uh accidentally erased this , I {disfmarker} I just had values here such as uh um is he s we had in our list we had \" Is he staying in our hotel ? \" , \" Is he staying with friends ? \" , and so forth", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh so we 're OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So it 's clear where w w w where we are right now . So my suggestion is we just pick uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Something down here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "one , you know one uh particular one of the uh well let 's do the first {disfmarker} first one let 's do the one that we sort of already think we did so w that was the {disfmarker} of the endpoint ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . And um Oops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is hmm", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ah ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So it 's true or false ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No , that 's {disfmarker} that 's a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . No no no , EVA .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Missed that one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What 's the difference between mode and endpoint ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I thought mode , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "although that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um mode was um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , that 's", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mode of transportation ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK . Also true or false .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No , he has he hasn't filled them in yet , is what 's true .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Did I or didn't I ? Ah . Probably nothing done yet , oh I just did it on the upper ones , OK . Makes sense . OK , so this was EVA . Maybe we can think of more things , cross", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Climb , rob .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "climb , emerge", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No no no , these are ju that 's just a point ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well some of those are subsumed by approach .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "this is ju", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Would it be an endpoint if you were crossing over it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The Charles Bridge , you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , would be a f for a given segment . You know , you {disfmarker} y you go {disfmarker} first go the town square", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I eh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I mean , if you go to re you know if you go to Prague or whatever one of your {disfmarker} your key points that you have to do is cross the Charles Bridge and doesn't really matter which way you cross which {disfmarker} where you end up at the end but the part {disfmarker} the good part is walking over it , so .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's subtle , but true . Anyway so let 's just leave it three {disfmarker} with three for now", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm , mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and let 's see if we can get it linked up just to get ourselves started .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , we", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "You 'll see it {disfmarker} you 'll see something comes up immediately , that the reason I wanna do this .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "w well the uh user was uh definitely more likely to enter if he 's a local", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "more likely to view if he 's a tourist um and then of course we had the fact that given the fact that he 's thrifty and there will be admission then we get all these cross um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "We did , but the three things w that {disfmarker} that it contributed to this in fact , the other two aren't up there . so one was the ontology", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We 'll d what type of building is it ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And the {disfmarker} and the third thing we talked about was something from the discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What he has mentioned before .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , so this is w Right , so what w I {disfmarker} what we seem to need here , this is why it starts getting into the technical stuff", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "the way we had been designing this , there were three intermediate nodes uh which were the endpoint decision as seen from the uh user model as seen from the ontology and as seen from the discourse . So each of those the way we had it designed , now we can change the design , but the design we had was there was a decision with the same three outcomes uh based on the th those three separate considerations", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so if we wanted to do that would have to put in uh three intermediate nodes", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh we can load it up it you know very simple .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and then what you and I have to talk about is , OK if we 're doing that and they get combined somehow uh how do they get combined ? But the {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're undoubtedly gonna be more things to worry about .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So this was adjusted for this one mode thing .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So that 's w w in our uh in {disfmarker} in Johno 's sort of pictogram everything that could contribute to whether a person wants to enter , view , or approach something .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , it was called mode , so this {disfmarker} this is m mode here means the same as endpoint .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is now this endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , why don't we ch can we change that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We can just rename that , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright . You know , but that was actually , yeah unfortunately that was a um kind of an intermediate versio that 's I don't think what we would currently do .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Can I ask about \" slurred \" and \" angry \" as inputs to this ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What {disfmarker} why ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Like they 're either true or false", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The prosody ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and they uh oh I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If the {disfmarker} if the person talking is angry or slurs their speech they might be tired or , you know", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK . Drunk .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Therefore", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And , you know , possibly uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Less likely to enter .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "some ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "uh I was thinking less likely to view", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But that 's - that seems to , yeah . So {disfmarker} so my advice to do is {disfmarker} is get this down to what we think is actually likely to {disfmarker} to be a {disfmarker} a strong influence .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But yeah , that was what he had in mind .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So let 's think about this {disfmarker} this question of how do we wanna handle {disfmarker} so there 're two separate things . One is {disfmarker} uh at least two . One is how do we want to handle the notion of the ontology now what we talked about , and this is another technical thing Bhaskara , is uh can we arrange so that I think we can so that the belief - net itself has properties and the properties are filled in uh from on ontology items . So the {disfmarker} let 's take the case of the uh this endpoint thing , the notion was that if you had a few key properties like is this a tourist site , you know some kind of landmark is it a place of business uh is it something you physically could enter", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK , et cetera . So that there 'd be certain properties that would fit into the decision node and then again as part of the ou outer controlling conditioning of this thing those would be set , so that some somehow someone would find this word , look it up in the ontology , pull out these properties , put it into the belief - net , and then the decision would flow .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Now", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Seems to me that we 've sort of e em embedded a lot , em embedded a lot of these uh things we had in there previously in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in some of the other final decisions done here , for example if we would know that this thing is exhibiting something um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it 's exhibiting itself it is a landmark ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "meaning more likely to be viewed", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it is exhibiting pictures or sculptures and stuff like this , then it 's more likely to be entered .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I uh that 's {disfmarker} I think that 's completely right and um I think that 's good , right ? So what {disfmarker} what that says is that we might be able to uh take and in particular so {disfmarker} so the ones we talked about were uh exhibiting and selling", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Accessibility .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "no , accessibility meant", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If it 's closed one probably won't enter . Or if it 's not accessible to a tourist ever the likelihood of that person actually wanting to enter it ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "given that he knows it , of course .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright . So let me suggest this . Uh w could you move those up about halfway . Uh The ones that you th And selling I guess .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , all {disfmarker} all of these if it 's fixing things selling things , or servicing things", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . So here {disfmarker} here 's what it looks like to me . is that you want an intermediate structure which i uh is essentially the or of uh for this purpose of {disfmarker} of uh selling , f fixing , or servicing . So that it uh that is , for certain purposes , it becomes important but for this kind of purpose uh one of these places is quite like the other . Does that seem right ? So we di", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Basic you 're basically just merging those for just the sake of endpoint decision ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "if we Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So if {disfmarker} well it may be more than endpoint decisions , so the idea would be that you might wanna merge those three", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "These three ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . Eh ser s uh selling , fixing , and servicing .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What ex um and so either those is true f or false ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh Uh well it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i here 's where it gets a little tricky .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh from the belief - net point of view it is from another point of view of course it 's interest it 's {disfmarker} it 's important to know what it 's selling or servicing and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So for this decision it 's just uh true or false", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and in th this is a case where the or seems just what you want .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} that if any of those things is true then it 's the kind of place that you uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um more likely to enter .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "are more likely to enter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So you just wanna have them all pointing to a summary thing ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You could , yeah . Yeah , so let 's do that . No no , no eh to {disfmarker} to an inter no , an intermediate node .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "T", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "That 's the p part of the idea , is", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um is {disfmarker} is that the object type node ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I d", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So are they the {disfmarker} is it the kind of object that sells , fixes , or services things ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , o open up object type and let 's see what its values are .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh I just created it , it has none so far .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh , well OK first of all it 's not objects , we called them entities , right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And then we have sort of the um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Let 's say I put commercial .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I w I was just gonna commercial action inside where people p", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well couldn't I do {disfmarker} let 's do commercial uh landmark and", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And where was the accessible , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well accessible I think is different cuz that 's tempor that {disfmarker} that varies temporally ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "whereas this is a", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What would a hotel fall under ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I would call that a service , but {disfmarker} but I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well I mean in terms of entity type ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Say w w well it 's co I would s a a again for this purpose I think it 's commercial . Someplace you want to go in to do some kind of business .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um what does the underscore - T at the end of each of those things signify ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um things . So places that service things sell things or fix things and pe places that e exhibit things .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK . OK . That also points to entity type I guess .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So we 're deriving um this {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this feature of whether the {disfmarker} the main action at this place happens inside or outside or what we 're deriving that from what kind of activity is done there ? Couldn't you have it as just a primitive feature of the entity ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well you could , that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a choice .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean it seems like that 's much more reliable cuz you could have outdoor places that sell things and you know indoor places that do something else", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , the problem with it is that it sort of putting in a feature just for one decision ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "now w we may wind up having to do that this i anyway , this i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "at a mental level that 's what we we 're gonna have to sort out .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So , you know what does this look like , what are {disfmarker} what are uh intermediate things that are worth computing , what are the features we need in order to make all these decisions", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and what 's the best way to organize this so that um it 's clean and {disfmarker} and consistent and all that sort of stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . I 'm just thinking about how people , human beings who know about places and places to go and so on would store this and it would probably {disfmarker} you wouldn't just sort of remember that they sell stuff and then deduce from that that it must be going on inside or something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I think an entity maybe should be regard as a vector of several possible things , it can either em do s do sell things , fix things , service things , exhibit things , it can be a landmark at the same time as doing these things ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it 's not either or mmm certainly a place can be a hotel and a famous site .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Many come to mind . Things can be generally um a landmark and be accessible . IE a {disfmarker} a castle or can be a landmark a or not accessible , some statue", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know can go inside .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK . Anyway so let me suggest you do something else . Uh which is to get rid {disfmarker} get rid of that l long link between who {disfmarker} the user and the endpoint .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Could we just move it like this ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No no , I don't want the link there at all .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Because what we 're gonna want is an intermediate thing which is uh the endpoint decisi the endpoint decision based o on the user models , so what we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} what we talked about is three separate endpoint decisions , so let 's make a new node", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Just as a suggestion maybe you could \" save as \" to keep your old one nice and clean and so you can mess with this one .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm . The old one was not that not that important , I think but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , well , not a big deal then .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's do it then .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the {disfmarker} Isn't there a \" save as \" inside of java base ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But I can just take this", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "copy it somewhere else . This was user something", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well this was", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh let 's p put it this {disfmarker} let 's do endpoint underbar - U .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "end point ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "i endpoint , e end poi this is sa", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "it 's the endpoint", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Gotcha , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "let 's say underbar - U , so that 's the endpoint decision uh as seen through the", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "As related from the user model .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . So let 's {disfmarker} let 's actually yeah so lin you can link that up to the", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Should I rename this {pause} too ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh yeah , so that , I guess that 's endpoint uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": " It 's underscore - E .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "underscore - E for entity , and we may change all this , but . Right . And", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , shouldn't I be able to move them all ? No . Or {disfmarker} ? Can I ? Where ? What ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh I d eh I don't know . Actually , I guess the easiest thing would move {disfmarker} mo move the endpoint , well , go ahead . Just do whatever .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Wasn't this possible ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I think you have to be in move mode before", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh . OK .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Good . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So now we 're looking for user related things that um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . And uh maybe th maybe it 's just one who is the user , I don't know , maybe {disfmarker} maybe there 's more .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well if he 's usi if he 's in a car right now what was that people with Harry drove the car into the cafe", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Never mind . Uh anyway , this is crude . Now but the {disfmarker} now so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} but then the question is uh so {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and we assume that some of these properties would come indirectly through an ontology , but then we had this third idea of input from the discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} should we finish this ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean but surely the user interests", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The user thrift , the user budget .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah , yeah", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , maybe , I again , I d well , OK , put em in but what we 're gonna wanna do is actually uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Here this was one of my problems we have the user interest is a {disfmarker} is a vector of five hundred values , so um That 's from the user model ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Oh you mean level of interest ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "mm - hmm , no not levels of interest but things you can be interested in .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "somebody else has built this user model .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh I see ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Gothic churches versus Baroque townhouses versus", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "right . So why is it oh it , so it 's like a vector of five hundred one 's or zero 's ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yea - n is that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Like for each thing are we {disfmarker} are you interested in it or not ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yeah uh I {disfmarker} I think", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So uh you cou and so here let me give you two ways to handle that . Alright ? One is um you could ignore it . But the other thing you could do is have an {disfmarker} and this will give you the flavor of the {disfmarker} of what you could have a node that 's {disfmarker} that was a measure of the match between the object 's feature , you know , the match between the object the entity , I 'm sorry and the user .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So you could have a k a \" fit \" node and again that would have to be computed by someone else", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but uh so that uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just as a mental note uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's all .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . And {disfmarker} and should we say that this interests eh affects the likelihood of {disfmarker} of entering ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , we could .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And also if it 's an expensive place to enter , this may also", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Budget .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "User schedule . \" Do I have time to go in and climb all the way to the top of the Koelner Dome {comment} or do I just have to {disfmarker} \" \" time to take a picture of the outside ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Schedule ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It seems like everything in a user model a affects {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well that 's what we don't wanna do , see that {disfmarker} se cuz then we get into huge combinatorics and stuff like that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "an", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Cuz if the , I mean , and if the user is tired , the user state ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right , it would affect stuff , but I can't see why e anything w everything in the model wouldn't be", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} we can't do that , so we we 're gonna have to", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but this is a good discussion , we 're gonna have to somehow figure out uh some way to encapsulate that uh so if there 's some general notion of for example the uh relation to the time to do this to the amount of time the guy has or something like that is {disfmarker} is the uh compatibility with his current state , so that 's what you 'd have to do , you 'd have to get it down to something which uh was itself relatively compact , so it could be compatibility with his current state which would include his money and his time and {disfmarker} and his energy", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , just seems like it 'd push the problem back a level .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It does .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No but , it 's more than that , like the {disfmarker} the more sort of you break it up like because if you have everything pointing to one node it 's like exponential whereas if you like keep breaking it up more and more it 's not exponential anymore .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So it yeah , there are two advantages . That 's tha there 's one technical one", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Sh - sh yeah , {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and the other is it {disfmarker} it gets used", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "S so we 'd basically be doing subgrouping ? Subgrouping , basically into mo", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so basically make it more tree like going backwards ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . But it {disfmarker} there 's two advantages , one is the technical one that you don't wind up with such big exponential uh CBT 's ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Bhaskara ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "the other is it can be {disfmarker} it presumably can be used for multiple decisions .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So that if you have this idea of the compatibility with the requirements of an action to the state of the user one could well imagine that that was u", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "not only is it sim is it cleaner to compute it separately but it could be that it 's used in multiple places . Anyway th so in general this is the design , this is really design problem .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , you 've got a signal , a d set of decisions um how do we do this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "What do I have under user state anyhow cuz I named that already something . Oh that 's tired , fresh , yeah . Maybe should be renamed into physical state .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Or fat user fatigue even .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's with a \" G \" ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": " Whatever .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Then we can make a user state .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What 's th what we 're talking about is compatibility . Uh or something , I don't know , but .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess the {disfmarker} the question uh is It 's hard for me to imagine how everything wouldn't just contribute to user state again . Or user compatibility .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh but the thing is that we uh uh we had some things that uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That don't .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "that don't", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The user interests and the user who {disfmarker} who {disfmarker} who the user is are completely apart from the fact whether he is tired broke", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure , but other {disfmarker} I thought though the node we 're creating right now is user compatibility to the current action , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "the right", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Seems like everything in the user model would contribute to whether or not the user was compatible with something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh maybe not . I mean the {disfmarker} that 's the {disfmarker} the issue is um would Even if it was true in some abstract general sense it might not be true in terms of the information we actually had and can make use of . And anyway we 're gonna have to find some way to cl uh get this sufficiently simple to make it feasible .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Maybe um if we look at the {disfmarker} if we split it up again into sort of um if we look at the uh the endpoint again we {disfmarker} we said that for each of these things there are certain preconditions so you can only enter a place if you are not too tired to do so and also eh have the money to do so if it costs something so if you can afford it and perform it is preconditions . Viewing usually is cheap or free .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is that always true ? I don't know .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , with the way we 're defining it I think yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "W w but that eh viewing it without ent yeah view w with our definition of view it 's free cuz you", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And so is approaching .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well what about the Grand Canyon , right ? No , never mind . I mean are there {disfmarker} are there large things that you would have to pay to get up close to like , I mean never mind , not in the current {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No we have to enter the park .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Eh almost by definition um paying involves entering ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "ge going through some", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Right , sure .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Uh So let me suggest we switch to another one , I mean clearly there 's more work to be done on this", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "but I think it 's gonna be more instructive to {disfmarker} to think about uh other decisions that we need to make in path land . And what they 're gonna look like .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So you can save this one as and open up the old one , right and {disfmarker} and then everything would be clean . You could do it again .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why , I think it 's worth saving this one but I think I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to keep this one", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "cuz I wanna see if {disfmarker} if we 're gonna reuse any of this stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um so this might be What next ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well you tell me , so in terms of the uh planner what 's {disfmarker} what 's a good one to do ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well let 's {disfmarker} th this go there or not I think is a good one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Is a very basic one . So what makes things more likely that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the fir see the first thing is , getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So Keith this is gonna get into your world because uh we 're gonna want to know you know , which constructions indicate various of these properties", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "s and so I {disfmarker} I don't yet know how to do this , I guess we 're gonna wind up pulling out uh discourse properties like we have object properties and we don't know what they are yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So that {disfmarker} that the Go - there decision will have a node from uh discourse , and I guess why don't we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Of {disfmarker} of course .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Identified that", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and so again re that 's completely correct , we have the user model , the situation model here , we don't have the discourse model here yet . Much the same way as we didn't {disfmarker} we don't have the ontology here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting , selling , and so forth .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Really .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "So in some sense it 's {disfmarker} it 's there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But the discourse we don't have it represented at all yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um This be specific for second year ? Um And {disfmarker} and we probably will have uh something like a discourse for endpoint .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "But if we do it 'll have the three values .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "It 'll have the EVA values if {disfmarker} if we have it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK just for starters and here discourse um", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "For Go - there , probably is true and false , let 's say . That 's what we talked about .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um well , I think um we 're looking at the {disfmarker} the little data that we have , so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they wanna go there .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So this should sort of push it in one direction", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And sometimes um people say where is it", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because they wanna know where it is but in most cases they probably", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that doesn't change the fact that you 're {disfmarker} you want these two values .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , true . So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it 's either {pause} yep , yay , A , or nay . Yeah . OK ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And they 'll be a y uh , a user Go - there and maybe that 's all , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Situation Go - there , I mean , because it 's {disfmarker} whether it 's open or not .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "OK , good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That definitely interes", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But that now that kind of um what 's the word", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "um the {disfmarker} that interacts with the uh EVA thing if they just wanna view it then it 's fine to go there when it 's closed whereas if they want to um", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right , so that 's {disfmarker} that 's where it starts getting to be uh uh essentially more interesting , so what uh Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they 're only going to view it then it doesn't matter whether it 's closed or not", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "in terms of uh uh you know , whether {disfmarker} whether you wanna go there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The time of day ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right I {disfmarker} well , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It does matter though if there 's like a strike or riot or something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right . So yeah , that 's what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this {disfmarker} that node by itself wouldn't distinguish", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well i i it can have di various values . Yeah , but we eh you {disfmarker} you 're right it might not be enough .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean , see I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking that any node that begins with \" Go - there \" is either gonna be true or false .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , what {disfmarker} Whoops .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah . I see that could be .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Also , that node , I mean the Go - there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "you know , there 's different things , the strikes and the", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Could be . Yeah . N", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Like situation traffic and so on .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , the time of day .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So {disfmarker} so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that uh there sh should be a link , and this is where things are gonna get very messy from the endpoint uh decision", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess the final", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "maybe the t they 're final re and , I guess the very bottom endpoint decision uh to the Go - there node . And I {disfmarker} don't worry about layout ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean then we 'll go {disfmarker} we 'll go nuts but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Maybe we could um have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go - there S node sort of fed into ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Could be , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right . Because that 's what we , I mean that 's why this situation comes up .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well the Go - there , actually the Endpoint node could feed {disfmarker} feed into the Go - there S That 's right ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so the Endpoint node ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "make that up t t to the Go - there then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and again we 'll have to do layout at some point , but something like that . Now it 's gonna be important not to have loops by the way . Uh really important in {disfmarker} in the belief worl net world not to have loops", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I was just gonna", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "How long does it take you to {disfmarker} to compute uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No it 's much worse than that . It {disfmarker} if i loo it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's not def i it 's not well defined if you 're there are loops ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It {disfmarker} things don't converge , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "uh R recursive action ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there isn't uh OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh but this isn't , this is {disfmarker} this line is just coming from over here .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , no it 's not a loop yet , I 'm just saying we {disfmarker} we , in no , in", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , but the good thing is we {disfmarker} we could have loopy belief propagation which {vocalsound} we all love .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right . OK , so anyway , so that 's another decision . Uh what 's {disfmarker} what 's another decision you like ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK , these have no parents yet , but I guess that sort of doesn't matter . Right ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , the idea is that you go there , you go comes from something about the user from something about the situation and the uh the discourse is {disfmarker} is a mystery .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean this is sort of This comes from traffic and so forth , yeah . Sh - Should we just make some", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure , if you want .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um if there 's parking maybe Mmm Oh who cares . OK . And if he has seen it already or not and so forth ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . Um and discourse is something that sort of should we make a Keith note here ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That sort of comes from Keith .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just sort of so we don't forget . Oops . Have to get used to this . OK , whoops .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Um actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And then also the discourse endpoint , I {disfmarker} I guess endpoint sub - D is {disfmarker} if you wanna make it consistent .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Wh - ah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Um actually is this the {disfmarker} the right way to have it where um go there from the user and go there from the situation just sort of don't know about each other but they both feed the go there decision because isn't the , I mean", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think so . S", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh , hmm OK . But that still allows for the possibility of the {disfmarker} of the user model affecting our decision about whether a strike is the sort of thing which is going to keep this user away from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Maybe not , a Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That {disfmarker} all that {disfmarker} that kind of decision making happens at the Go - there node .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh y you {disfmarker} yeah you {disfmarker} i you {disfmarker} if you needed to do that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh . If you needed it to do that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But uh OK I was just thinking I guess maybe I 'm conflating that user node with possible {disfmarker} possible asking of the user", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "you know hey there 's a strike on , uh does that affect whether or not you wanna go or something", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah . Good point , I don't {disfmarker} I don't know how we 're going to {disfmarker} t uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or Yeah , so that might not come out of a user model but , you know , directly out of interaction .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . Uh I gu yes my curr you know , don't yeah yeah yeah that 's enough .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh My current idea on that would be that each of these decision nodes has questions associated with it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And the question wouldn't itself be one of these conditional things", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "you know , given that you know there 's a strike do you still wanna go ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But uh if you told him a bunch of stuff , then you would ask him do you wanna go ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But I think trying to formulate the conditional question , that sounds too much .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right , right . Yeah . Right , sure , OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "To me .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Alright , but let me {disfmarker} let {disfmarker} let 's stay with this a minute", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "because I want to do a little bit of organization . Before we get more into details . The organization is going to be that uh the flavor of what 's going on is going to be that uh as we s e sort of going to this detail indeed Keith is going to {disfmarker} to worry about the various constructions that people might use", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and Johno has committed himself to being the parser wizard ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so what 's going to happen is that eventually like by the time he graduates , OK uh they 'll be some sort of system which is able to take the discourse in context and have outputs that can feed the rest of belief - net . I j wa I {disfmarker} I assume everybody knows that , I just wanna you know , get closure that that 'll be the game then ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so the semantics that you 'll get out of the discourse will be of values that go into the various discourse - based decision nodes . And now some of those will get fancier like mode of transportation and stuff so it isn't by any means uh necessarily a simple thing that you want out . So uh if there is an and there is mode of transportation", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And it there 's a sort of also a split if you loo if you blow this up and look at it in more detail there 's something that comes from the discourse in terms of what was actually just said what 's the utterance go giving us", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and then what 's the discourse history give us .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , well that , well , we 'll have to decide uh how much of th where that goes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's uh two things then .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "an and it 's not clear yet . I mean it could be those are two separate things , it could be that the discourse gadget itself integrates em as {disfmarker} which would be my guess that you 'd have to do see in order to do reference and stuff like that um you 've gotta have both the current discourse and the context to say I wanna go back there ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "wow , what does that mean and uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Now . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Alright . So", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But is th is this picture that 's emerging here just my wish that you have noticed already for symmetry or is it that we get for each {disfmarker} each decision on the very bottom we sort of get the sub - E , sub - D , sub - U and maybe a sub - O {disfmarker} \" O \" for \" ontology \" um meta node", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but it might just", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "It could be .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "could be", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker} this is getting into the thing I wanna talk about next ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so this", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "which is s if that 's true uh how do we wanna combine those ? O or when it 's true ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but this eh w wou wou would be nice though that , you know , we only have at most four at the moment um arrows going f to each of the uh bottom decisions .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And four you {disfmarker} we can handle .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It 's too much ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well i i it see i if it 's fou if it 's four things and each of them has four values it turns out to be a big CPT , it 's not s completely impossi I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's not beyond what the system could solve but it 's probably beyond what we could actually uh write down . or learn .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right , true .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh but , you know it 's four to the fourth . It 's pretty big . Uh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two fifty - six ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "is that what that", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean it 's and I don't think it 's gonna g e I don't think it 'll get worse than that by the way , so le that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a good", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but four {disfmarker} didn't we decide that all of these had true or false ? So is {disfmarker} it 's four", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Uh for go there , but not f but not for {disfmarker} the other one 's three values for endpoint already .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean you need actually three to the five because uh well I mean if {disfmarker} if it has four inputs and then it itself has three values", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "so I mean it can get big fast .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um for endpoint ? No it 's {disfmarker} it 's sh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "EV - it 's the EVA .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah , down here , but this one only has two .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No it still has three ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Since ta they will still have three .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "EVA .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Each {disfmarker} so you 're uh uh from each point of view you 're making the same decision .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So from the point of view of the ob of the entity", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Want to view that , yeah yeah . C sl", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker} and also , I mean , the other places where , like for example consider endpoint view , it has inputs coming from user budget , user thrift", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "so even", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Those are not necessarily binary . S so we 're {disfmarker} we 're gonna have to use some t care in the knowledge engineering to not have this explode . And in fact I think it doesn't in the sense that um Read it , you know actually with the underlying semantics and stuff I think it isn't like you have two hundred and fifty - six different uh ways of {disfmarker} of thinking about whether this user wants to go to some place . Alright . So we {disfmarker} we just have to figure out what the regularities are and and code them . But um What I was gonna suggest next is maybe we wanna work on this a little longer but I do want to also talk about the thing that we started into now of uh well it 's all fine to say all these arrows come into the si same place what rule of combination is used there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So th yes they {disfmarker} so these things all affect it ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "how do they affect it ? And belief - nets have their own beliefs about uh what are good ways to do that . So is it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clearer n clear enough what the issue is ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? So do we wanna switch that now or we wanna do some more of this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "R basically w we just need to sort of in order to get some closure on this figure out how we 're gonna get this picture sort of uh completely messy .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Well , here {disfmarker} he here 's one of the things that {disfmarker} that I th you sh you {disfmarker} no , I don't know how easy it is to do this in the interface but you {disfmarker} it would be great if you could actually just display at a given time uh all the things that you pick up , you click on \" endpoint \" , OK and everything else fades", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "and you just see the links that are relevant to that . And I does anybody remember the GUI on this ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh d I would almost say the other way to do that would be to open u or make you know N - many belief - nets and then open them every time you wanted to look at a different one", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "vers cuz uh", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's probably pretty easy do it {disfmarker} to do it in HTML , just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah , but", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "HTML ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah I have each of these thing each of the end belief - nets be {disfmarker} be a page and then you click on the thing and then li consider that it 's respective ,", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} well the b", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "anyway so uh it clear that even with this if we put in all the arrows nobody is gonna be able to read the diagram .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright , so e we have to figure out some eh eh uh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} let me consi suggest that 's a s not a first - order consideration , we have two first - order considerations which is what are the uh influences A , A , and B how do they get combined mathematically , how do we display them is an issue , but um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I don't , yeah I just don't think this has been designed to support something like that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} I mean , it might soon , if this is gonna be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to uh start modifying it for our purposes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , and Um I {disfmarker} that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into , but um we have to know what we want first . OK , so why don't you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what {disfmarker} what the choices might be for these ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So Ah , sorry . I guess that 's", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You can technically wear that as you 're talking .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's right , I guess I can do that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Darn .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Put it in your , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I guess this board works fine . So um recall the basic problem which is that um you have a belief - net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node . Right ? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it 's so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty - three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down . So what um helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set , right ? These are all like saying EV or A , right ? So it 's not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we wanna just take a combination of {disfmarker} we wanna view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we wanna sort of combine their decisions and create you know , um sorta weighted combination .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm . ROVER , the ROVER decision .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "The what decision ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "ROVER . All of their outputs combined to make a decision .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So the problem is to specify the uh so the conditional property of this given all those , right ? That 's the way belief - nets are defined , like each node given its parents , right ? So um that 's what we want , we want for example P of um let 's call this guy Y and let 's call these X - one , X - two XN , right . So we want probability that Y equals , you know , for example um E given that these guys are I 'll just refer to this as like X um hat or something , uh the co like all of them ? Given that for example the data says you know , A , V , A , E , or something right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So we would like to do this kind of combination .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Alright , so um Is that uh I {disfmarker} yeah , I just wanna make sure everybody is with us before he goes on .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think so , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's cl e is {disfmarker} is it clear what he wants to compute ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . So , right . So Basically um {vocalsound} what we don't wanna do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E , s give a number", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "because that 's obviously not desirable . What we wanna do is find some principled way of um saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution , so we want it to um add up to one , right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So those are the two things that we uh need . So what uh I guess , what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we , you know view these guys as voting and we just take the uh we essentially take um averages , right ? So for example here two people have voted for A , one has voted for V , and one has voted for E , so we could say that the probabilities are , you know , probability of being E is one over four , because one person voted for E out of four and similarly , probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is um two out of four and probability of V is one out of four . Right ? So that 's step {disfmarker} that 's the uh yeah that 's the {disfmarker} that 's the basic uh thing . Now", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Is that all OK ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And that one outcome , that 's", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "it 's X {disfmarker} X - one voted for A X - two voted for V", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and so forth ?", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Y right . Yep .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things , which may or may not be a good assumption ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's the outcome .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . So step two is um right . So we 've assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know , some w be that for example , what the um the actual the uh verbal content of what the person said , like what uh what might be uh somehow more uh important than the uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "X - one matters more i than X - two or", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . Sure , so we don't wanna like give them all equal weight so currently we 've been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by uh W - one , W - two , W - three , and W - four", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each um X - hat , we just need that the W 's sum to one . So they can be for example , you know you {disfmarker} you could have point one , point three , point two , and point four , say .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's one .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "And that 'd be one . So that um also seems to work fine . And uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So I jus just to make sure I understand this , so in this case um we would still compute the average ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "You 'd compute the weighted average , so the probability of E would be uh", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} so it 'd be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be uh {comment} W one times {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Point three .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or A or {disfmarker} let 's see , one full quarter times point one", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Not one quarter ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so these numbers have been replaced with point one , point three , point two , and point four . So you can view these as gone .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Probability of", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . OK . So , alright . So this is uh step two . So the next possibility is that um we 've given just a single weight to each expert , right , whereas it might be the case that um in certain situations one of the experts is more uh reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable . So the way this is handled is by what 's called a mixture of experts , so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called \" H \" , OK ? This is a hidden variable . And what this is is it gets its input from X - one , X - two , X - three , and X - four , and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation . Right ? And then these guys all come here . OK . So this is sightly uh more complicated . So what 's going on is that um this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these isn't likely to be more reliable or most reliable . So H produces some you know , it produces a number , either one , two , three , or four , in our situation , right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it 's two , and then he just selects the uh thing . That 's all there is to say , I guess about it . Right , so you can have a mixture that", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad E" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs . It 's driving how the other four are interpreted . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So H passes a vector on to the next node ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It could .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It could ? A vector of the weights as the se", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it could", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sorry ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well a vector with three zero 's and one one , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh it 's basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it 's in or which one of the weighting systems", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right , so I mean the way you desc", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "W I was just , if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too , couldn't you ? OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha , beta , whatever , or is the {disfmarker} that 's determined by what the experts are saying , like the type of situ OK . Hmm . OK . OK . I mean It {disfmarker} it just seems that like without that {disfmarker} that outside input that you 've got a situation where , you know , like if {disfmarker} if uh X - one says no , you know , a low value coming out of X - on or i if X - one says no then ignore X - one , you know , I mean that seems like that 'd be weird ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , well could be things like if X - two and X - three say yes then i ignore X - one also .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? Oh , OK . OK . Alright , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh The situations that H has , are they built into the net or OK , so they {disfmarker} they could either be hand coded or learned or OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Based on training data , OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yes .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations . Oh yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um Well , I mean to learn them we need data , where are we gonna get data ? Well I mean we need data with people intentions , right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right , right .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Which is slightly tricky . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But what 's the data about like , are we able to get these nodes from the data ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Like how thrifty the user is , or do we have access to that ? Mm - hmm . Oh right . Oh good . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that 's my question , like how do we {disfmarker} I mean , how do we have data about something like um um endpoint sub - E , or endpoint sub uh {pause} you know s S ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , basically you would say , based on {disfmarker} in this dialogue that we have which one of the things that they said eh whether it was the entity relations or whatever was the thing that determined what mode it was ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So this is what we wanna learn . Yep . Right . Hmm . Yeah . I don't think , well you have a {disfmarker} can you bring up the function thing ? Um w where is the thing that allows you to sort of", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's on the added variable , isn't it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh function properties , is that it ? Hmm , I guess not . Yeah , that 's", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right . OK . And um it so e either it 'll allow us to do everything which I think is unlikely , I think more likely it 'll allow us to do very few of these things and in that case we 'll have to um just write up little things that allow you to um create such CPU 's on your own in the java base format . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do because yeah I was assuming that 's what we 'd always do , it 's Right . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ah . Well in terms of java base I think it 's basically what you see is what you get in I don't yeah , I would be surprised if it supports anything more than what we have right here .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So Yeah . Yeah . By the way um uh just talking about uh about that general end of things uh is there gonna be data soon from what people say when they 're interacting with the system and so on ? Like , I mean , what kind of questions are being given {disfmarker} being asked ? Cuz {disfmarker} OK . Yeah yeah . OK . OK . Fey , you mean . OK . OK . O OK . OK . I 'm just wondering , because in terms of , you know , I mean uh w the figure {disfmarker} I was thinking about this figure that we talked about , fifty constructions or whatever that 's uh that 's a whole lot of constructions and um you know , I mean one might be f fairly pleased with getting a really good analysis of five maybe ten in a summer so , I mean I know we 're going for sort of a rough and ready . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . OK . OK . I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} uh I was talking about the , you know , if you wanted to do it really in detail and we don't really need all the detail for what we 're doing right now but anyway in terms of just narrowing that task you know which fifty do I do , I wanna see what people are using , so Well , it will inspire me . Right , sure sure . Right . Yeah , sure . Sure . Yeah . OK . Touche . Good enough .", "speaker": "Grad A" } ]

[ { "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's your talk ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three three , it's three", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you didn't save it maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's David Jordan . Course .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Too great for email then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So powerful ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "many functions and very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To merge the two system huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You mean this one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if we have very very good user interface", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the point .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Participant two . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What the cost is ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twelve , twelve a half .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can go to the next slide .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What is this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The wire ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Now the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just think of um the usability .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This you will see in my presentation then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The look , how it look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The manuals .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "With a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Look fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Specially distribution , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "some people prefer black remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "remember it's twelve Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because if we want to to do remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "of the uh of real reaction", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Require lot of requirements ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And cheap .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A low cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe not ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's maybe more in browsing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but mayb", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ok", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hm-mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the global usage ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Global ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so if people don't have the technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Min", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but just mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And that's it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it would be simpler .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And Florent to work my subject .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the um session is closed .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's your talk ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three three , it's three", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you didn't save it maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's David Jordan . Course .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Too great for email then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So powerful ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "many functions and very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To merge the two system huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You mean this one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if we have very very good user interface", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the point .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Participant two . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What the cost is ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twelve , twelve a half .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can go to the next slide .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What is this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The wire ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Now the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just think of um the usability .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This you will see in my presentation then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The look , how it look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The manuals .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "With a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Look fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Specially distribution , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "some people prefer black remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "remember it's twelve Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because if we want to to do remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "of the uh of real reaction", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Require lot of requirements ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And cheap .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A low cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe not ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's maybe more in browsing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but mayb", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ok", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hm-mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the global usage ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Global ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so if people don't have the technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Min", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but just mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And that's it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it would be simpler .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And Florent to work my subject .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the um session is closed .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's your talk ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three three , it's three", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you didn't save it maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's David Jordan . Course .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Too great for email then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So powerful ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "many functions and very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To merge the two system huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You mean this one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if we have very very good user interface", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the point .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Participant two . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What the cost is ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twelve , twelve a half .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can go to the next slide .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What is this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The wire ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Now the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just think of um the usability .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This you will see in my presentation then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The look , how it look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The manuals .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "With a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Look fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Specially distribution , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "some people prefer black remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "remember it's twelve Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because if we want to to do remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "of the uh of real reaction", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Require lot of requirements ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And cheap .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A low cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe not ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's maybe more in browsing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but mayb", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ok", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hm-mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the global usage ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Global ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so if people don't have the technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Min", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but just mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And that's it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it would be simpler .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And Florent to work my subject .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the um session is closed .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's your talk ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three three , it's three", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you didn't save it maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's David Jordan . Course .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Too great for email then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So powerful ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "many functions and very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To merge the two system huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You mean this one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if we have very very good user interface", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the point .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Participant two . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What the cost is ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twelve , twelve a half .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can go to the next slide .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What is this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The wire ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Now the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just think of um the usability .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This you will see in my presentation then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The look , how it look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The manuals .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "With a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Look fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Specially distribution , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "some people prefer black remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "remember it's twelve Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because if we want to to do remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "of the uh of real reaction", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Require lot of requirements ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And cheap .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A low cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe not ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's maybe more in browsing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but mayb", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ok", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hm-mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the global usage ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Global ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so if people don't have the technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Min", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but just mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And that's it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it would be simpler .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And Florent to work my subject .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the um session is closed .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's your talk ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three three , it's three", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you didn't save it maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's David Jordan . Course .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Too great for email then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So powerful ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "many functions and very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To merge the two system huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You mean this one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if we have very very good user interface", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the point .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Participant two . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What the cost is ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twelve , twelve a half .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can go to the next slide .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What is this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The wire ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Now the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just think of um the usability .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This you will see in my presentation then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The look , how it look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The manuals .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "With a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Look fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Specially distribution , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "some people prefer black remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "remember it's twelve Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because if we want to to do remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "of the uh of real reaction", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Require lot of requirements ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And cheap .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A low cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe not ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's maybe more in browsing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but mayb", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ok", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hm-mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the global usage ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Global ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so if people don't have the technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Min", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but just mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And that's it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it would be simpler .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And Florent to work my subject .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the um session is closed .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's your talk ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three three , it's three", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you didn't save it maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's David Jordan . Course .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Too great for email then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So powerful ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "many functions and very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To merge the two system huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You mean this one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if we have very very good user interface", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the point .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Participant two . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What the cost is ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twelve , twelve a half .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can go to the next slide .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What is this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The wire ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Now the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just think of um the usability .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This you will see in my presentation then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The look , how it look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The manuals .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "With a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Look fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Specially distribution , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "some people prefer black remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "remember it's twelve Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because if we want to to do remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "of the uh of real reaction", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Require lot of requirements ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And cheap .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A low cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe not ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's maybe more in browsing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but mayb", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ok", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hm-mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the global usage ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Global ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so if people don't have the technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Min", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but just mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And that's it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it would be simpler .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And Florent to work my subject .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the um session is closed .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's your talk ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three three , it's three", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you didn't save it maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's David Jordan . Course .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Too great for email then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So powerful ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "many functions and very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To merge the two system huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You mean this one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if we have very very good user interface", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the point .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Participant two . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What the cost is ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twelve , twelve a half .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can go to the next slide .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What is this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The wire ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Now the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just think of um the usability .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This you will see in my presentation then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The look , how it look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The manuals .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "With a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Look fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Specially distribution , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "some people prefer black remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "remember it's twelve Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because if we want to to do remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "of the uh of real reaction", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Require lot of requirements ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And cheap .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A low cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe not ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's maybe more in browsing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but mayb", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ok", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hm-mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the global usage ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Global ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so if people don't have the technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Min", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but just mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And that's it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it would be simpler .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And Florent to work my subject .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the um session is closed .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's your talk ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three three , it's three", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you didn't save it maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's David Jordan . Course .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Too great for email then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So powerful ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "many functions and very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To merge the two system huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You mean this one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if we have very very good user interface", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the point .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Participant two . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What the cost is ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twelve , twelve a half .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can go to the next slide .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What is this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The wire ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Now the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just think of um the usability .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This you will see in my presentation then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The look , how it look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The manuals .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "With a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Look fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Specially distribution , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "some people prefer black remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "remember it's twelve Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because if we want to to do remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "of the uh of real reaction", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Require lot of requirements ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And cheap .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A low cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe not ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's maybe more in browsing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but mayb", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ok", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hm-mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the global usage ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Global ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so if people don't have the technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Min", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but just mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And that's it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it would be simpler .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And Florent to work my subject .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the um session is closed .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's your talk ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three three , it's three", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you didn't save it maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's David Jordan . Course .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Too great for email then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So powerful ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "many functions and very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To merge the two system huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You mean this one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if we have very very good user interface", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the point .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Participant two . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What the cost is ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twelve , twelve a half .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can go to the next slide .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What is this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The wire ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Now the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just think of um the usability .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This you will see in my presentation then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The look , how it look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The manuals .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "With a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Look fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Specially distribution , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "some people prefer black remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "remember it's twelve Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because if we want to to do remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "of the uh of real reaction", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Require lot of requirements ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And cheap .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A low cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe not ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's maybe more in browsing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but mayb", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ok", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hm-mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the global usage ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Global ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so if people don't have the technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Min", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but just mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And that's it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it would be simpler .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And Florent to work my subject .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the um session is closed .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "So , I will open our functional design meeting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I will play role of the secretary . As also Program Ma Manager . So , we will have the three presentations from the In Industrial Designer , User Interface Designer and um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Design .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What's your talk ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Marketing Experts . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And after that we uh will have the uh new product requirements , the decision on the remote control functions , and we will close the meetings after . Mm so um I suppose the first to do the presentation will be the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , so you're participant two ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One one .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No no no .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "One .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Three three , it's three", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I'm participant one . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I I think I'm a {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , never mind .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "'Kay , did you save your presentation ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "In one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In one , sorry {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Isn't that technical functions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No sure .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you didn't save it maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's mine .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's David Jordan . Course .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Name's Jordan . So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "David Jordan ? {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so I'll {disfmarker} I let David Jordan do his presentation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , no . Uh this one doesn't want to be moved , I think .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Too great for email then .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so . The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our uh remote T_V_ control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I I will focus on user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um so move to the next slide . As we know our remote c rem remote T_V_ control it's very {disfmarker} has very soph sophisticated functions , as we show from this picture . There's a lot of functions . Over , I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote T_V_ control . So how can we um design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? Um , let's move to next slide . Um . Yeah . So I {disfmarker} so we want to design uh elegant , easy to use inter interface . A very good example is Google . As we know uh Google it's a very successful because his um powerful function , but with very easy to use user interface . Um so move to next s slide .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So my job is to uh design a Google T_V_ controller {vocalsound} which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface . So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the end of the talk {vocalsound} the end of the presentation .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} With sophisticated functions ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So powerful ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but with very {disfmarker} yeah powerful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "many functions and very easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , I dunno , it's maybe difficult to have both ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "To merge the two system huh .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean the the one on the right doesn't look so simple", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You mean this one ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you have to learn the manual before using this remote control , I suppose .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "But But this is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But if we have very very good user interface", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it take less time for user to learn how to use it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah you {disfmarker} maybe you have some international standards , where you know , if you can use one is the other are {disfmarker} or almost the same , so the sign .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh you mean for the yeah pic pictograms or things like that ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . For example , I dunno here , escape , you know , you have escape in computers you have , so if you see escape , you know that it should be the same .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh it should {disfmarker} okay , yeah . The user should know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker} The sh the user there {disfmarker} for example the power off button it is something very international , you know that {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah um such as maybe the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Go on , go back and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system , alright .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's gonna be the trick . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's my job . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's your job {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's my job . It's not the easiest I've got to .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It you {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , you will propose us something which is yeah so powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Powerful and easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So that's the point .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's the point .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you you're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Participant two . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The rationale must be {vocalsound} design , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So , Baba is the uh the Industrial Designer . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we can move to the next slide . As you all know , you know m my job is to design you know uh to give an industrial design of the remote control . So the re basically the remote control will be , you know , infrared control , so the problem is how to relate the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "how to relate the remote control device , like for example this one I h I'm holding in my hand and the T_V_ . So , this one is leather bu based", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} I propose a nifra infrared base {vocalsound} you know , so so for me I think that it is better {vocalsound} it's bet it's better to control T_V_", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so you know , so it's it will be cheaper and it is less technology than , you know {disfmarker} For the cheap price we have , for the cheap price we want to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think it's cheaper than laser , so {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve , nearly thirteen ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What the cost is ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . The cost {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twelve , twelve a half .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think for the cost we want {disfmarker} for the cost we want {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it's better to have uh uh Let's see . Yeah . You can move to the next slide , so . So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just , you know a bulb and an infrared bulb , so here for example the infrared bulb will be here", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and the bulb it will be somewhere inside .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That might just {disfmarker} So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You can go to the next slide .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have some kind of pictures you know , here . You have the b the bulb , it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What is this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Look . But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So and the next slide , it is the last one it's {disfmarker} So it's {disfmarker} I think it should be wire {vocalsound} wireless re remote con {vocalsound} Because you know , it's easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you . Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both , but you know , I at my side prefer a wireless .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so if you have some question I didn't answer ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What's the average price of this technology then ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost , I dunno , around eight Euros , so . Or at least you know , the", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So what , the wireless remote control ? There's a wire {vocalsound} with remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You'd {disfmarker} yes , you can . It's so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know , put some energy inside , so you can think about wireless or you know it's it's a question that we can raise , so . We can think that you know , with the wire , you know , without a wire . We can have both also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you think that uh {vocalsound} a cable between the remote control {vocalsound} and the T_V_ {vocalsound} {disfmarker} won't be a good idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No it wou maybe it will be cheaper {vocalsound} I dunno , I just may maybe you making a solu", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I don't think the user would be ready to have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Wireless remote control {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think {disfmarker} well , yeah , I don't think he would ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , but some pa I always want to have you know ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but in a sense {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "sometime I want to have wire because you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah but as Industrial Designer , do you think that it will be feasible to have uh linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm just asking you . Do you think it will be cheaper ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh , {vocalsound} I don't {vocalsound} think it will be too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Could you answer please ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Have to think about the question , you know , 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think that you know you can always you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think wha wha with the wire it's mm cheaper but you know the wireless it's more practical , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think the wireless problem is more the um David Jordan's problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The wire ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "As it's {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's more your problem . Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh that's my job . That's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay , {gap} I'm sorry .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Now the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah but , it should be an agreement , you know , because {disfmarker} even if you can think of the wireless , it is it's it is the job of the {vocalsound} the the g Graphical User Designer , but you know . If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have , if you want to use , {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} it can be good to have a wireless , it it is a question .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "just think of um the usability .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Design a wireless remote control . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just think of the problem . If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's would be easier to have {vocalsound} a link between the remote control and the television ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well that's actually one of the point , yeah ? True .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This you will see in my presentation then .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I will let you to do your presentation , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which is participant four . So just trying to answer all the questions , if the user would be happy to have something or something else uh . We've made a study , so could you go to next slide .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry for the functional recurrence . So that's the standard method for marketing , okay . We had one hundred subjects , um , we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire , um , and see what was okay or not for them .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . So then it's some statistics about what we observed and what they answered . Um actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls uh ugly , okay , so that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You mean the loo the look , the outside ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The look , how it look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the the look is is bad for them", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so uh it's your job , David , maybe . Then eighty percent of users would spend more money um actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly . So this is where we could have uh yeah , good market , I guess , if people are ready to pay more .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So it's it's interesting information , I think . And then um yeah , the remote controls like the one you've shown previously it's not so {disfmarker} doesn't fit the user requirements sometime , because it's too many buttons and so on . So we should change this as well . And uh users are actually zapping a lot , so they're using the device intensively , that's something to take into account as well . And um , you know , ten percent of the buttons are actually used in the remote control . And uh this is one of the main point for me . But I'll come back to it later . 'Kay . Could you go next slide ? Uh , so as you said uh ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So this is from the experiments we've done ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so if we could solve this problem this would be interesting for the user , I think . Um it takes too much time to learn how to use the remote control for thirty five percent of the people . And uh remote control are really bad for R_S_I_ problems for twenty six percent of the users .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What is R_S_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "R_S_I_ is like , when you're using the same um {disfmarker} doing the same movement several times , then you get injured .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ah um okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay ? So , those numbers are less important then the previous one , but still it has to be taken to count . So last slide . Um so my pres personal preferences for this problem is we have to meet the user needs . If we can make it look fancy then we might sell more than our uh concurrent , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And definitely if it could have less buttons , still maybe the same number of um functions , but less buttons ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "this would definitely be a good way of selling more . Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm okay . And just to have uh an idea , do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control , you think it's possible ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sure ? Yeah ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think possible . Because we can {disfmarker} We can uh mix uh several function in one button .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So lets you {disfmarker} then you have less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but do you think it will be easy to use ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'm not sure {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , remember the user is not happy to read the", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The manuals .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "manual .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No you you can have a switch menu , so you can", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it has to be intuitive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well for example {disfmarker} Yeah , I think so . Like for for example you can uh you can category the function i i into several classes . Then for um you can have a switch menu , so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , okay . Okay ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Then you you put the switch button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "then it switch to another category of functions . Yeah . For example , if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your T_V_ and also you can control your uh recorder .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "With a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So there's a different functions , but i if you you {disfmarker} there's a button you can switch between control T_V_ and control your recorder . So we can has less buttons .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But what I'm not so sure is about how to make the remote control look funny {disfmarker} look fancy , not funny .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Look fancy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "This is a question that should be asked to the {disfmarker} If you ask the people , maybe the the marketing people {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because different people have a different opinion about fancy . You know .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is something we sh", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people , but maybe simple and uh uniform colourful is fancy for some {disfmarker} for other peoples , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But this was first step and {disfmarker} This was the first step , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the solution is to have many colours of {disfmarker} you know instead of having one grey standard {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Specially distribution , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , maybe . Yeah , maybe .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , personalised colour . Because you know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it will cost little bit more .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , because maybe some people prefer a red remote control ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "some people prefer black remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is what we would ask to the users , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And also f", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe we can have di di we can have uh several options ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "so user can select which colour they prefer , so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but as soon as you speak about options , it means that the price increases ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "remember it's twelve Euros .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "and we don't really want the price to be too too high , because we wanna be able to produce it . So , we want something fancy , as uh previously said , Florent , something very easy to use , powerful and also as uh it's written here , seventy five percent of users , they zap lot , so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And they don't really want to zap between functions of their remote control , they want to zap between channels on T_V_ .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} I think you have quite lot of points to to think about", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and to discuss it with uh the other members .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay for your presentation ? Nothing else to to add ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's done , just {disfmarker} yeah . If we would {disfmarker} if we could remember like , not too many buttons and make it look fancy , I think it would make it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Mm so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , I had some new information about the product requirements , so you will have to take care of it of it in your thinking , in your designing of the remote control . So the first one is that um for the designing of the remote control we don't really want to use the teletext anymore , as it's something that's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's is uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Lame , or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No yeah , because now everybody has internet at home , so it's better to use internet then teletext .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , you will have to think about it in your in in the design of your remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and also the remote control will only be used for television , so for y for you your designing , you're not {disfmarker} you won't be uh {disfmarker} you won't had {vocalsound} um buttons to just to manipulate {disfmarker} yeah to control the recorder or maybe the garage door or things like that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Control . Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "because if we want to to do remote control", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "which will be used for for the television , for the recorder , for the camcorder and all the others , it will become too complex and it will increase the pli the price and we can't do that . We really want to focus on the remote control for the television . Is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . But there's balance between function and the cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So maybe it will be easier for you to to design it , to have very powerful and easy .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also we want the image of the uh um real reaction be recognisable in the product , such as the colour and s the slogan .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean that's uh if uh you want to buy a remote control and if you go in a shop and if you see the remote control you will recognise directly that s it's our product .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you will have to use the colour of the product , of the um um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "of the uh of real reaction", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh also {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . As we say , we put the fashion in electronics , so it has to be a fashion remote control . Fancy , fashion , powerful , easy to use .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Require lot of requirements ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} For cheap {vocalsound} remote control , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . And cheap .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A low cost .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . But uh that's your your job to find something mm matches .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Yeah , 'cause what I'm thinking is how will you will connect the T_V_ to internet , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think it's part of the remote control design anyway .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe not ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's maybe more in browsing .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but mayb", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this this mean that your T_V_ would be able to , you know , connect to internet , you know , surf the web .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , there's that box in uh o of it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A pi There's that box in the T_V_ , so with the set box you you can connect internet with your T_V_ .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Ok", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Hm-mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's It's not so uh popular now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's pop I don't think it's popular , so that's the problem so . You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "the global usage ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Global ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so if people don't have the technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So everybody is okay with the new requirements ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I I so {disfmarker} As as for the colour , what what do you think ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it has to be yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yellow ? Do you think that people like the colour yellow ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yellow ? {gap} T_V_ remote control ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Min", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can change the colour , but the image of the society has to be recognised .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think if you have you know th like a yellow ribbon here is the double R_ . Or should be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Why you go {disfmarker} It has to be fashion .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , so . Doesn't need to be completely yellow ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you have to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but just mm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It has to be a fashion and really be uh the image of the society . Just when you enter you say oh , oh , it's real reaction . Think it's a re reaction remote control , so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And also it has to be attractive , of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "because if you want to sale {disfmarker} to sell the remote control . It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Regarding the first line , what {disfmarker} So we're just expecting no more use of the teletext .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And that's it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I dunno , but why , nobody's a threat to me .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's already changed for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it would be simpler .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So {disfmarker} I will close the meeting , um just after that we'll have lunch break . And you will have in thirty minutes individual work . Uh {disfmarker} Y you {disfmarker} You will have as the I_D_ I don't remember what is industr Industrial Designer to put um {disfmarker} pon", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Industrial Designer , yeah . Component component , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , and the User Interface Designer to work on the user interface concept .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And Florent to work my subject .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And so specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think the um session is closed .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And by the way , Mister David Jordan , please record your presentations in your own folder . {vocalsound} Not in mine .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} Okay , that's clear .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay {vocalsound} . Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Should be better . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 20thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. As a reminder to all members, in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not be connected to the video conference. I want to remind those who are participating by video conference that, when they talk, they must use the channel that corresponds to the language they are speaking in. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. We are moving on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on. We will now move on to document submissions. The honourable minister, Mr. Blair.", "speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2019 annual report on the RCMPs use of the law enforcement justification provisions. This report addresses the RCMP's use of specified provisions within the law enforcement justification regime, which is set out in subsections 25 to 25 of the Criminal Code. This report also documents the nature of the investigations in which these provisions were used.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)" }, { "content": "On tabling of documents, we have Minister Sajjan.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 32, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2018-19 progress report on Canada's national action plan for the implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security.", "speaker": "Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence)" }, { "content": "Now we'll go to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of a special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Members who are participating in the meeting in person are kindly asked to bring the signed certificate to the office once the petition has been presented. Presenting petitions, Ms. May.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to present two petitions. They both pertain to the protection of our natural world. One is an e-petition, and it relates to the threat to pollinators globally. We know that honey bees and other pollinators are essential to food production. The petitioners note that research from around the world points to a threat to pollinators, particularly from a class of pesticides known as neonicotinoids. The European Union has taken action on this. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to practise a precautionary principle and remove from use neonicotinoids in Canada to protect our pollinators. The second petition relates to the ongoing threat to the southern resident killer whales. These iconic whales are much beloved in SaanichGulf Islands, throughout coastal British Columbia and indeed across Canada. The petitioners are calling for more action to be taken as the population of southern resident killer whales continues to decline, more action for boat-free safety zones, more prohibitions around whale tourism to make sure that the whales are safe from those who are keen to watch them from too close a distance, and more of a credible enforcement regime to support these measures to keep the southern resident killer whale population in our waters and not on the list of species that have become extinct.", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Genuis.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, for over 10 years, members of Parliament from various parties have been trying to pass legislation to deal with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. Irwin Cotler, Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Senator Salma Ataullahjan and I have all proposed bills on this. The petitioners want the House to support Bill S-204. This is another bill that would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. I'm sure petitioners would want me to add that, given the urgency of this issue, perhaps the government could consider bringing forward a government bill on this issue, which would allow the process to move much faster.", "speaker": "Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise here today to present a petition from Canadian citizens in support of motion M-1, which was placed in this House by my colleague the member for New WestminsterBurnaby on the green new deal. These citizens point out that climate change has escalated into a global climate emergency and that Canada must act with ambition and urgency. They call on the government to support M-1, a made in Canada green new deal, to take bold and rapid action to adopt socially equitable climate action to tackle the climate emergency and address worsening socio-economic and racial inequalities at the same time while ending fossil fuel subsidies, closing offshore tax havens, and supporting workers impacted by the transition by creating well-paying, unionized jobs in the shift to a clean and renewable energy economy.", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Johns.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and privilege to table e-petition 2577, which was sponsored by Chris Alemany from Port Alberni and is supported by 5,183 petitioners. They're calling on the Government of Canada to work urgently across party lines and in partnership with provincial and territorial governments to implement a guaranteed, consistent, national and livable universal basic income system for all Canadians. The petition is very timely, coming almost one year to the day since the completion of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which also called on the government to establish a guaranteed annual livable income for all Canadians. Whether it's about providing a safety net to get through a global pandemic, the means to keep your children out of poverty at any time, or simply being able to afford safe housing or transportation, it's time for Canada to have this conversation.", "speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Manly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and a privilege to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of NanaimoLadysmith. People are concerned about gas fracking and the use of methane and the destruction that methane causes to our atmosphere and with climate change. They're calling on the government to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on the Wet'suwet'en territory, and by ordering the RCMP to dismantle their exclusion zone and to stand down. They also call on the government to schedule nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentswhich is something that we're happy to see has been happening and I commend the government for that effortand to prioritize the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.", "speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)" }, { "content": "Next is Mr. Lamoureux.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, like Canada, Guyana is part of the Commonwealth, and many constituents of Winnipeg North have raised the issue with regard to the presidential election back in March, when it was being called into question. There have been some very positive indications in recent days, but the petitioners are asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to be aware of what's taking place in Guyana, and as much as possible, to be advocates for democracy and make sure that we're being diligent in supporting what the people of Guyana want to see.", "speaker": "Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.)" }, { "content": "I just want to remind the honourable members, when presenting petitions, to be as concise as possible. I notice they're starting to stretch a bit and it's something we all tend to do. Now we'll go to Statements by Members. The first statement will be from Mr. Lefebvre.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID-19. I am proud of all my constituents, and all Canadians, including first responders, volunteers, health care and essential workers, local miners, the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families, and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff. I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks; Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer; Nobel Prize winner SNOLAB's work on ventilators, which earned a federal contract; Vale Canada's $1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID-19 health solutions; and many more. We are all in the same boat, but we will get out of it together.", "speaker": "Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Sudbury, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Dalton.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Pitt Meadows is one of Canada's most beautiful communities. It's tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain. Most of the area consists of farmland, golf courses, parks and conservation areas. It also has Pitt Lake, which is among the largest freshwater tidal lakes in the world. Pitt Meadows' history dates back thousands of years with Katzie First Nation. In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for today's bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries. It's hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nation's busiest general aviation airports. Last weekend the community came together to celebrate Pitt Meadows Day a little differently because of COVID. In a great show of community spirit, from their front yards and balconies, thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city. I am thankful to have raised my family here, taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community.", "speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Kelloway.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times. Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been, it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through. Whether it is someone like Glen Muise, who delivers iPads to seniors' homes so they can connect with loved ones, teachers who deliver meals to students in need, Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas, two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast, or Rose Fitzgerald, who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county, constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need. Mr. Chair, as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso. The people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia care deeply about one another. They know that as a community, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable people, and I cannot help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding. Thanks so much.", "speaker": "Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape BretonCanso, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Ms. Brub, go ahead.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash, whose commitment I commend, to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec. The Bloc is open to the idea, but we shouldn't wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action. There are already potential solutions for taking action. Commissions have been issuing reports for decades, and Ottawa has been tabling them. Last year alone, the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations. The federal government must work with indigenous peoples, Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces. Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP. Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures. Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the long-overdue reconciliation. Let's take action.", "speaker": "Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ)" }, { "content": "I give the floor to Mr.MacKinnon.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues, I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020. We know that, owing to the pandemic, graduation celebrations will be different this year, as students will be deprived of their prom, their graduation ceremony and, in some cases, their goodbyes to friends and teachers. I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant, LeCarrefour, Nicolas-Gatineau, de l'rablire, Collge Saint-Alexandre, Collge Nouvelles Frontires, Collge Saint-Joseph, Philemon-Wright and other regional schools, are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis. However, that takes nothing away from their accomplishment. So when they receive their diploma, here is what I will say to them: Surge ahead! The future belongs to you. Be ambitious, follow your dreams and, most importantly, continue to change the Outaouais and the world! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time.", "speaker": "Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Morantz.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre, which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg. This state-of-the-art addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott, Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce, who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011. The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community. I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council. The addictions crisis in Canada needs action. With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions, we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction. I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality. Addictions affect us all, and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution.", "speaker": "Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Jowhari.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill. Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty. I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services. I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which, upon receiving these donations, redoubled their efforts to serve their communities. Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation Long-Term Care Centre, Divine Favour Senior Homecare, the Community & Home Assistance to Seniors, the True Compassion Home Health centre, Blue Door, the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program, Yellow Brick House, Hill House Hospice, Community Living York South, and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill. The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament.", "speaker": "Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Madam Lalonde.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Usually, at this time of the year, I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans. However, we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year. I cannot express enough how, in these exceptional times, I have witnessed the strength, resilience and community spirit of our graduates. I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class. Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school, the cole secondaire catholique Batrice-Desloges, had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success. As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future. We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them. We will not fail. I thank the teachers, the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work. Congratulations to all graduates of 2020.", "speaker": "Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Vis.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives. For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely. The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit, most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection, even though Internet is an essential service. Those in underserved areas, including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, cannot work from home and their children cannot keep up with their classmates. For many of my indigenous constituents, Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies don't want to serve them. I, along with my colleagues, launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions. We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada. This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved.", "speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. McLeod.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada has been awarded its first-ever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme. Congratulations go to Lutsl K' Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation, with support from Deninu K'ue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area. It's 14,000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you'll find anywhere on earth. I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canada's $7.9-million commitment, along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year. The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large. Congratulations to Lutsl K'.", "speaker": "Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Falk.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Liberal government has tabled $87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study, debate and pass it. The allocated time is wholly inadequate. Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent. They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament. It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this government's spending. It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy. It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal government's programs fail to meet their intended goals. A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy. Canadians are owed better. Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting, parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do.", "speaker": "Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC)" }, { "content": "We now go to Mr. Godin.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Our planet is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. Our daily lives have been turned upside down. I am thinking of you, our seniors, valuable individuals who built our country. You have gone through a very restrictive confinement. You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families. Our students also had to adapt. Their school year was turned on its head. Our graduating class, especially, saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish. The future belongs to them. They must follow their dreams. I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things. We have all taken on our important responsibility, that of following the guidelines. The results have been most compelling in my riding. I want to say how proud I am to represent you here, in the Canadian Parliament. I thank each and everyone of you. You are helping PortneufJacques-Cartier flourish. You have shown resilience, creativity, innovation and solidarity. That is commendable. Together, we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger.", "speaker": "Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Gazan.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg, led by women and non-binary individuals, who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality. We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism. We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power. We will speak out against police violence. We will speak out against systemic racism. We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us, not abuse us. We will call out those who abuse their power. We will rise. We will rise. We will rise. To all the women and non-binary folks who are standing, I say, let's continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected. Our liberation is intertwined. Solidarity.", "speaker": "Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)" }, { "content": "Mrs.DeBellefeuille, go ahead.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID-19. However, the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister. First, he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition, while the economic recovery must be prepared. He is refusing to provide an economic update, even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic. He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers. The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave, and not after it. Finally, today, he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed. He is behaving as if he had a majority government. This is not a time for recklessness. Governing means anticipating. I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together.", "speaker": "Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Uppal.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic. I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods' Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors. Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and Dil-E-Punjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals. Sikh Youth Edmonton delivered free groceries to families, seniors and students. Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton. The Bhartiya Cultural Society Hindu temple provided free meals to anyone who needed them. Punjab Insurance and The Punjab chain of restaurants provided free meals in downtown Edmonton. The staff, nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy. I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength, resilience and compassion as we move forward together.", "speaker": "Hon. Tim Uppal (Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now proceed to Mr. Fonseca.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today is Portugal Day, celebrated both in Portugal and around the world by Portuguese. In Canada, June has been recognized as Portuguese Heritage Month. We're truly happy to recognize the great contributions made by Canadians of Portuguese descent. This year is a difficult one, though, for all of us, including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation. Our prayers and well wishes are with everyone. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times. Your warmth, hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally. As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family, I know this year will be a lot different from previous years. I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal, and please continue to support our local businesses. ", "speaker": "Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We now begin the period of questions for ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for sitting to substitute each other very safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister is doing everything to avoid being accountable to Canadians. He is refusing to table a budget, refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work. Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities, but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that. I hope the opposition parties will allow a vote and a debate in the House on this important bill.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister wants parliamentarians to vote on aspects of the government's spending. We want the Auditor General to be able to examine that government spending. Under the government, the Auditor General has had to do more with less, and her ability to conduct audits is being affected. The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits, despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending. I have a simple question. Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job, yes or no?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor General's office in 2018-19, and the equivalent of 38 full-time staff were added. We support the Auditor General, unlike the Conservative government, which fired 60 people from the Auditor General's office. We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon, and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "The Prime Minister is again engaged in revisionist history. He well knows that it was the Auditor General's office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies, which did not affect its ability to do the job. In fact, as the interim auditor general, John Wiersema, said, We would not have proposed if we didnt think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament. Only the government's refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor General's ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve, and we wonder why. This is the government that cannot explain where 20,000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars' worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone. They can't identify that. Then there is, of course, the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank, which has completed precisely zero projects. Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, talking of revisionist history, Stephen Harper's Conservatives cut $6.5 million from the Auditor General's budget and fired 60 staff. On the contrary, we worked with the Auditor General's office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new full-time staff. We will continue to demonstrate openness and transparency. We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament, whom the Conservatives, in their time in office, showed no respect for. We will continue to move forward in a way that has led, for example, to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians. The Conservatives don't seem to want that debate or vote.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position. The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did, so I understand why he likes to live in the past. In May, the interim auditor general said, Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. With our current resources, we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year. That's half the number of audits, despite a massive explosion in government spending. The Auditor General's office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done. Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor General's office, yes or no?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we very much look forward to working with the new Auditor General to ensure that her office has the ability to continue the important audits and transparency measures that are foundational to our institutions. Speaking of what is foundational to our institutions, this afternoon we're putting forward a bill that would help Canadians across the country, and we've proposed to debate and vote on that bill. It actually looks like the Conservatives and other opposition parties might not want this. They have been complaining about not having debates and votes in Parliament, and now they're proposing not to have them. That's a little head-scratching. We hope they're going to help Canadians.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "We will continue with Mr.Blanchet.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We may have a chance here to replace a problem with a good opportunity. This morning, we heard many groups and organizations that represent people with a disability express their concerns over the bill introduced by the government, which I feel is chocolate pudding containing cod liver oil. We agree with the chocolate pudding. We are favourable to helping people with a disability. People don't know the rules. They don't knowI am telling them nowthat a bill can be divided. It can be cut into parts and voted on in parts. The rest of the bill can be enhanced. I am saying to the Prime Minister that, if he presents the part on disabled individuals, it will be passed at the speed of light. He won't even see it happen. Is he prepared to divide the bill, so that we can work together to help people with a disability?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ)" }, { "content": "The bill that we are proposing this afternoon will certainly help people living with disabilities. We can always recognize that this is important, and every party should be open to it. We will also increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit from four-week intervals to two weeks. We will also expand the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses will have access to it. I am always willing to work with members of the opposition to ensure that we adopt these measures, all or some of the measures. We want to help Canadians. We look forward to debating and voting on this later today.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "It is a glorious day. I heard all or some of the measures. That means that we are not adopting them all at the same time and that the bill is being split. Can the Prime Minister confirm that he is in fact going to split his bill so that we can address the various components separately, since they have nothing to do with each other, and improve them, in keeping with our mandate as elected officials?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "Our goal on this side of the House, and it is shared by all members of the House, is to help Canadians during the pandemic. We have put forward a number of measures that will help Canadians in a tangible way. Yes, that includes Canadians living with disabilities, but it also includes businesses that cannot, but should be able to, access the wage subsidy. In addition, we are going to make the Canada emergency response benefit more flexible. I look forward to continuing the discussions", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchet has the floor.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "We almost had some clarity, but one swallow does not make a summer. Yes, there is a need for discussions on the Canada emergency response benefit. The government says that it wants to transform the program into something very coercive, without admitting that the lack of an employment incentive has essentially sabotaged another program, the wage subsidy. That deserves some thought. That is what we are elected to do. We do not need to spend eight months on this, we can fix it in a few hours. When the government says that we are going to have to vote on this, it means rubber stamping its bill. We have the right to debate it, to have discussions and to improve it. I watched the election on the night of October21. It was a beautiful night. It was more fun than a hockey game. People elected a minority government. Can the government admit that?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "We are not proposing only to vote on this bill this afternoon, we are proposing to debate it. It is the role and responsibility of all of us in the House to exchange ideas and to work together to help Canadians. That is exactly what we are proposing this afternoon. It is about helping people with disabilities, increasing the flexibility of the CERB, and expanding the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses have access to it. I look forward to debating this with my colleagues opposite.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchet, you have 43seconds left.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "That will be enough. I would be remiss if I allowed the Prime Minister to mislead people quite unintentionallyI say this in accordance with the Standing Orders. When we introduce a bill, we discuss it at second reading, we vote, we continue to discuss it and we send it to committee. All that can be done very quickly. However, we must be able to amend and improve this bill. That is how the normal Parliament works. The government doesn't like being in a minority situation. It behaves as if it were a majority government, but it is not. Can we follow the real procedures of Parliament, do a proper job, and then have a vote that is likely to suit the majority of members, not just the Prime Minister?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, my hon. colleague seems to completely forget that we are going through a pandemic. The COVID-19 crisis requires different actions on our part. That is why we provided the text of the bill to the opposition parties four days ago. We have been working with them for hours over the past three or four days to amend the bill, if they had amendments to propose. That is how we are taking action to help Canadians quickly during this crisis, and that is what we will continue to do.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Singh, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities, will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit. We hope to be able to debate it.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "As I said, Mr. Chair, discussions are ongoing on that, but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them, as we have been.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, a family that needs to buy groceries can't take those pretty words and buy groceries with them. We're asking the Prime Minister to extend the CERB for families in need. Will the Prime Minister do that, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to be there for Canadians in the right way. We are engaged with stakeholders, with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I can tell you what the right way is. Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he's an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened. He is now dependent on the CERB. He wants to go back to work, but there's no work. He sent an email saying he's faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he's frightened that if the CERB runs out, and it is planned to run out at the end of this month, then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet. Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, and as we have been saying from the beginning, we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it. The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon. We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities, to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB. He doesn't even want to debate those things. He doesn't even want to be voting on them. Will the NDP allow us to move forward on these important measures for Canadians?", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, let's talk about those measures. One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities. Now the government's plan is only going to help 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40%, or a significant portion, of people with disabilities, he wants to help none of them, because he's not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill. That's unfortunate. We're always happy to look at how we can do more. We have demonstrated from the beginning that we want to do more for Canadians. I look forward to working with the NDP. I am hoping those members change their minds and allow us to have an important debate this afternoon.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Let's talk about the 60% who aren't being helped. They are veterans living with disabilities, those who receive CPP and those who receive disability payments. Often it's the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who won't be helped with the plan the government is proposing. Will the government help all Canadians living with disabilities?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our proposal will help 100% of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit, including many veterans. The fact is that we are there to support the disability community. We are there to support Canadians with disabilities. Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation?", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Singh, we have 43 seconds for a question and an answer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, that's the exact problem with the Liberal proposal. It's a tax credit approach, which excludes the vast majority of Canadians living with disabilities. That is the wrong approach. We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB, if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities, we will move forward. Will the government do that?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I have said from the beginning, we look forward to continuing to work with the members opposite to keep moving forward to help Canadians. However, we need the opposition parties to actually choose to help Canadians and not to play political games. I hope we're going to be able to actually have a debate and a vote on this important legislation this afternoon.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "We're now going to take a short pause to allow staff to change up in a safe way respecting COVID-19 procedure. The floor now goes to Mr. Rayes.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, can the Prime Minister tell us whether we will have an economic update by the end of June?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. It is of course very important to be transparent. When the situation is stable, we will have", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)" }, { "content": "Once again, the floor goes to Mr.Rayes.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, most of the provinces in Canada are working on tabling economic updates by the end of June. Why is the Liberal government unable to do so as well?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "I understand the importance of transparency and that is why we are trying every day to explain our investments to Canadians and to continue to be transparent with them.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "The Liberal government announced hundreds of billions of dollars in new spending during the pandemic, but it still refuses to provide an economic update in order to be transparent with Canadians. In times of crisis, monitoring the situation is more important than ever. I repeat my question: why does this government not want to table an economic update by the end of June, when the provinces are doing so?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "Every day, we explain the economic situation, our investments, the changes we are making, and our programs to improve the situation of Canadians during the pandemic. We will continue our approach to being transparent.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself does not understand why the federal government cannot deliver an economic update when the provinces can. Why are the government and the minister defying the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is an independent officer and is requesting an economic update?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "We will continue with our approach, which is one of transparency. We know that it's very difficult to make projections given the very dynamic nature of the situation. We think our approach of providing information daily is appropriate and we will continue to be transparent about our investments.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "That is incredible. When we listen to the minister and the Prime Minister talk, you would think we were in the pesky terrible twos phase that children go through, when they keep saying no, no, no. I find it funny that the provinces are able to table an economic update in a crisis situation. The opposition parties are asking for it, as are experts and officials. When the time comes for the government to listen to the scientists, it has no problem doing so. However, if people do not think like the government, it ignores them. The provinces are doing it, the opposition parties are calling for it and the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. Why will the Minister of Finance not table an economic update so that all members of Parliament can do their verification work?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "I will continue to provide daily information on our measures and investments. Projections are clearly very difficult to make. However, when the situation is more stable, we will be able to provide more information to Canadians. In the meantime, we will be adapting to the situation on a daily basis and making sure that we have the information we need to make our decisions and to make sure that Canadians understand our situation.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 45seconds left.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, one month ago, the Prime Minister announced with great fanfare that the eligibility criteria for the $40,000emergency loans for businesses would be more flexible to help self-employed entrepreneurs and businesses that pay themselves dividends to have access to them. However, as of todayit has been four weeks since that announcementbusinesses are still banging their heads on the doors of their financial institutions. They do not have access to the information because it is not available on official websites. In addition, even senior officials confirmed to me during a technical call on June2, last Tuesday, that this information would not be available for several weeks. Can the Minister of Finance, who says he wants to act quickly to help our businesses, explain why, after four weeks, it is still not possible to get the information the Prime Minister promised us from his doorstep?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have been listening and responding to small businesses and entrepreneurs across the country. In fact, we have even announced the expansion of the program's eligibility criteria to include many owner-managed small businesses with payrolls of less than$20,000. The new criteria have forced financial institutions to adapt to be able to provide this program to new applicants. We are working around the clock to ensure that we are able to promptly provide small businesses across the country with the assistance they need.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance)" }, { "content": "We will now proceed to Mr. Allison.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's unemployment rate stands at 13.7%. That's the highest it's been in almost four decades. Many industries, like travel, hospitality and tourism, are getting crushed. We rely on a lot of hospitality and tourism in my riding of Niagara West. Can the government tell us what their plans are to help the travel, hospitality and tourism industry that so many of my constituents depend on?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison (Niagara West, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his important question. I had a good conversation with the mayor of Niagara Falls recently, and we believe in the importance of the tourism sector. That's exactly why we've extended the wage subsidy until the end of August. There is the CEBA loan, the $40,000 loan. There is also spending through FedDev in my colleague's region. If he has clear, specific projects in the tourism sector that he needs help with, I would ask that he please come and see me and have a conversation.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the message from the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Perrin Beatty, and also other industries, is that we need a clear and coherent plan from this government because there's a whole hodgepodge of regulations and confusion about what's going to happen through the strategy. What I've told the government is that we need a strategy to reflect local conditions that is consistent and has a clear timeline so that businesses can begin to open safely and with confidence. What is the government doing to make this happen?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we absolutely agree. It is important for businesses to have an understanding of the programs that we've put in place. We have been consulting with businesses on the appropriate way to extend the wage subsidy so that we can continue to support businesses as they turn towards a safe restart. We've also looked very carefully at how we can ensure that the programs that we've put forward", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Allison.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has come way short of meeting the Canadian demand for personal protective equipment. Some equipment procured from overseas has been substandard and couldn't be used. Because of the shortage, in my riding of Niagara West, dentists have to pay up to 10 times the amount for an N95 mask. Compared to early March, when will the government finally begin to produce enough PPE in Canada to meet Canadian demand?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. We have mobilized over 700 Canadian companies to help them retool and rescale their efforts to make more personal protective equipment in Canada as part of a made-in-Canada initiative. We're going to continue to work with industry to build up domestic capacity.", "speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)" }, { "content": "Global News is reporting that Canada is struggling to secure a reliable source of PPE. What's the evidence of this? We know that the government procured 10 million substandard N95 masks that couldn't be used. Masks were sent back to suppliers for having flaws. We received mouldy swabs to be used in COVID-19 tests. Planes are arriving empty that should have been filled with PPE, and we received less than 5% of our total order of gloves. It's clear that Canada needs to rely on Canada for PPE. When will this government finally begin to take PPE equipment issues seriously and make enough in Canada to meet demands by Canadians?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the honourable member's questions were tainted with inaccuracies. Regarding the flights that returned from China without federal cargo, Air Canada did reimburse the federal government for that amount. In addition, with regard to the N95 masks that were referenced, the Government of Canada will not pay for masks that it does not use. Furthermore, as my colleague Minister Bains just stated, we are mobilizing and retooling the domestic industry. Over half of the face shields that we have received were produced in Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)" }, { "content": "At a time when the Prime Minister has ordered Canadians to stay home and businesses to remain closed, at a time when Canadians have had to say goodbye to their relatives over Skype, at a time when Canadians are not allowed to get married, at a time when Canadians are being fined for taking their kids to the park, at a time when restaurants are being fined $800 for allowing customers to eat outside and not being socially distanced, in these times, the Prime Minister's son attended a mass gathering with thousands of people while not socially distancing. Mr. Chair, why is it that there seems to be one set of rules in this country for some people but a different set for the Prime Minister? Why the double standard?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as the member knows, this country has been gripped with the need to stand up with one another to fight the experience of racism that so many Canadians live with and that so many of our American cousins live with. As the member knows, local public health sets advice for regions that he specified, and I would encourage all Canadians to check with local public health advice before they resume activities.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)" }, { "content": "Now we'll go to Mr. Chiu.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Many Canadian veterans are noticing that medical providers are increasing their costs. Everything is more expensive these days, including medicine, etc. It can take upwards of a year for Veterans Affairs to adjust their rate scale to compensate, and they do not allow for retroactive reimbursement. What are the government's actions to alleviate this hardship for our men and women who stood guard for this country, our veterans?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu (StevestonRichmond East, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the fact is that when we inherited the government, Veterans Affairs needed a lot of support from government. In fact, at that time, we invested $10 billion to make sure that Veterans Affairs was put in place and that we could provide the appropriate supports for veterans, like the pension for life, the centre of excellence on PTSD and the chronic pain centre of excellence. All of these things are so important. We have to realize that with government previously", "speaker": "Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs)" }, { "content": "We'll now go back to Mr. Chiu.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister, for answeringor respondingto my question, although that really did not provide an answer, in my humble opinion. Part of the side effect of spending hundreds of millions of dollars is inflation. My constituents in StevestonRichmond East are overwhelmingly finding this government's support for seniors inadequate. The opposition has put forward clear proposals, such as a one-time tax-free withdrawal being allowed for an RRSP or a RRIF. So far, the government has not taken any action on this. Why is the government ignoring suggestions to help Canadian seniors?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I want seniors to know that they are not alone. To help preserve their registered retirement income fund assets, we are reducing minimum withdrawals by 25% for 2020. We're also providing direct financial support so that seniors can get the help they need now. As the market is volatile during this time, we continue to look at all ways that we can best help seniors during this difficult time.", "speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Hong Kong government has arrested 9,000 civilians just in the past year. This is equivalent to the arrest of 42,000 people, proportional to Canada's population. It is anticipated that more unjust incarcerations will occur as Beijing imposes the national security law in Hong Kong. Has our government started preparing a list of names for Magnitsky-style sanctions, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as we have said, we and our allies are deeply concerned with Beijing's decision to impose a national security law on Hong Kong. With hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in its stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. The proposed law would also undermine the one country, two systems framework.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport)" }, { "content": "I thank the minister for responding. Again, however, words are not enough. It's time for action, because the Chinese embassy has said, in response to Canada's expressed concern, that they deplore, reject and condemn our response and our concerns thus far. What are the conditions for this government using Magnitsky sanctions should China continue to incarcerate Canadians and jeopardize the human rights of its citizens?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been very clear. We will continue to encourage all parties to engage in peaceful and meaningful dialogue to address the legitimate concerns expressed by the Hong Kong population. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chiu, we have about 22 seconds, so you have time for a very quick question and hopefully a very quick answer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Okay, here's a quick question. The Communist Chinese government has lied about COVID-19. They have issued statements against Canada and they have yet to release the two Canadians being held hostage. My constituents are concerned over this. When will this government listen to Canadians and call for a stronger, more effective and truly independent international investigation into COVID-19's origin?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "The honourable minister has 22 seconds or less, please.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we are dealing with a global pandemic, COVID-19. It is critically important that all countries in the world work together in a transparent, open and respectful manner so that we understand what is going on and how we can bring it to an end as quickly as possible.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "The next question will come from Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, if the government orders someone who has been exposed to a confirmed COVID case into a 14-day quarantine, why won't the government allow them to take an antibody test to lift the quarantine so they can go back to work?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (RenfrewNipissingPembroke, CPC)" }, { "content": "As the member opposite may or may not know, testing strategies are determined by provinces and territories. Furthermore, the testing of a particular person has to be done at the right point in time", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, there have already been some tests that have been approved. My friend and colleague here, Colin Carrie, from the constituency of Oshawa, has a constituent who has a test. It's 90% accurate and it's being sold to the United States and other countries. Why won't they provide a DIN number to it so that Canadians have access to it as well, regardless of which province or territory they live in?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I think the member is talking about two separate things. Any test kit that would be approved by Health Canada would be accessible to wherever that company chose to market that test kit. Furthermore, it's really important that test kits that are approved by Health Canada be accurate and have been tested with rigour with regard to their ability to provide credible and accurate information to the people who are using that test.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the test has proven to have an accuracy rate of 90% in identifying whether or not an individual has antibodies. Why won't she allow it to be used here?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I am happy to follow up with the member opposite's office when she is able to provide me with the name of the company. As you can imagine, there are many vendors trying to", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "How long will it take for an antibody test to be approved by this government once you have the name of the company and the test and the evidence in front of you?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Before we go to the honourable minister, I just want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair and not directly. Go ahead, Minister.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "We have an expedited process that could be completed in as little as five to seven days, depending on the accuracy of the test and the information supplied by the vendor.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, will Health Canada use reputable data from other countries to speed their determinations about antibody effectiveness, or just continue to withhold access?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Canadians expect us, at Health Canada, to ensure the accuracy and the safety of all equipment approved for use in Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chairman, if the minister can approve tests and studies within five days, why is it taking over 30, over 60, or over 90 days to approve an antibody test that exists?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "I appreciate the member opposite's interest in urgent and quick approvals; however, sometimes, depending on the company, there may be further questions and further tests that need to be run to ensure the accuracy or safety of that equipment. Should she wish me to check into the process for a particular", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We will go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Have officials provided the government with a target for a daily antibody test to complete an initial survey or the initial phase of a study?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is talking about the work of the immunity task force, which is, as you know, a group of scientists who have been funded by the Government of Canada", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We'll go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, would the minister please provide the names of the people on the task force to which she just referred?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I will forward those names to the office of the member opposite.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "I hope that will be within the next two days or so, and not wait until after the crisis has passed, Mr. Chairman. Why isn't the Prime Minister showing as much fervour for antibody testing as he is for getting a vaccine on the market?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I reject the premise of that question. In fact, the Prime Minister has shown fervour for all aspects of dealing with the coronavirus from the very inception of the virus on the world stage. To allege otherwise is quite disingenuous.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We'll go on to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "When will the government give the Auditor General the funds she needs to do her job?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC)" }, { "content": "First, Mr. Chair, I would like to offer my congratulations to the new Auditor General for her appointment. On behalf of the government, I would also like to offer her our full support and collaboration", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage)" }, { "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "I share the minister's wish to congratulate the new Auditor General on her position. I will now ask him again when he will give her the funds she needs to do her job.", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, her role is essential to our democracy. We are eager to work with her. She's more than welcome to share her concerns directly with the government. I can assure her that my", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I didn't ask him if he would like to work with the Auditor General. I asked him if he will give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job.", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our government has added 38 permanent staff positions to her office, while the Conservative government, under their leadership, cut the funding for more than 60", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "We'll move on to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, through you, I caution the minister to not mislead this House. If he will look at the committee transcripts of the time, he will know that it was the Auditor General's decision to reduce their own budget. The Conservatives did not cut positions. That is a matter of fact. The point is that the Auditor General now does not have the money to do her job. She has cut performance audits and she has stopped work on performance audits. When will this government give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "With us, it was 38 new positions, Mr. Chair. With them, it was 60 positions fewer.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has drastically expanded its spending and is avoiding accountability in every way it can. The finance committee yesterday, with the support of Liberal backbench MPs who are on that committee, unanimously passed a motion to fund the Auditor General in full so that her office can do her job. If this minister will not listen to me, will he at least listen to his own backbenchers?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our government is fully committed to supporting the important and ongoing work of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament. If the Auditor General identifies the need for additional resources, we will work with the Office of the Auditor General to ensure that they have all the resources they need to continue fulfilling their mandate efficiently and effectively.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Auditor General has consistently, since 2018, told this government that the office doesn't have enough funds. It's not a mystery. The Auditor General has told the public accounts committee that it cannot do its job. It's the first time in history that the Auditor General has had to tell public accounts that they don't have the resources to do their job. It's not a matter of if the Auditor General needs more funds. The Auditor General couldn't be more clear. When will this government actually do the right thing and fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, maybe I'm not making myself clear in English. I will switch to my native tongue, French, in case it becomes clearer. If the Auditor General identifies a need for additional resources, we will work with her to ensure that her office can continue to deliver its mandate efficiently and effectively. In addition, our government worked with the Auditor General to increase funding in 2018-09. With this increase, the office was able to add the equivalent of 38new full-time staff to its team. That's 38more employees", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "The floor goes to Mr.Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this isn't an if situation. The Auditor General has already told this government that her office does not have funds. This has been ongoing since 2018. I would ask the minister to please stop with the platitudes and actually just say yes or no. Will the government give the Auditor General the money that the Auditor General has already asked for?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we have already increased the budget of the Office of the Auditor General in the 2018-19 period.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Before we continue, we're going to suspend for a second to bring in the next chair.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "There's a point of order.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.))" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I know that no member would knowingly mislead the House. No member wants to do that. It's always customary to give members a chance to correct the record, so I call upon the minister to do so now, and perhaps even the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister misled the House in his response to a question. I have here the transcripts of the public accounts committee, and they will confirm that the", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "This is beginning to sound a bit like debate. We will proceed. Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. First, I would like to take this opportunity to say hi from Portugal. I would also like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague and friend, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean. Obrigado. While Quebec estimates its additional health care costs related to COVID-19 at $3billion, Ottawa is transferring around $115million, which is not even4%. Does the government recognize that this is clearly insufficient?", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, we invested an initial $500 million in transfers to the provinces and territories to manage the extreme pressure put on health care systems as a result of their supporting people living with COVID and in preventing COVID. We want to thank the provinces and territories for their work, and as the member opposite knows, we will continue to be there for the provinces and territories. This is a significant transfer, and we think", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, the minister says that this is a substantial transfer. Yes, it is a lot of money. The government is giving about $115million to Quebec, but that is not even 4%of what is being requested. Does the minister recognize that much more is needed?", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie" }, { "content": "We have been working with the provinces and territories from the beginning to respond to the crisis. We have increased health care transfers, provided medical protective equipment and responded to all requests for assistance. We have been able to make so much progress in the fight against COVID-19 precisely because of this co-operation. Stirring up an imaginary quarrel between the federal government and Quebec", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, it isn't about squabbling, it's about needs. The share that the federal government is giving isn't enough. We should act now, before we see a possible second wave. What we're seeing today are the results of massive disinvestment by the federal government in health care. This isn't good enough. The government must act quickly. Can the government commit to better funding to the health care sector and to organizing a meeting with Quebec and the provinces on this exact topic, in September at the latest? We can't afford to wait.", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie" }, { "content": "The hon. minister's response will have to be brief.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, with respect to the transfers to provinces and territories, the member opposite knows that our government, in our last mandate, significantly increased transfers to the provinces and territories for health services, including mental health and home care services. In fact, the funding we're providing is in addition to the $40 billion that was transferred", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. Tudo bem? Tudo bom? Today in La Presse, we learned that the government has extended its military presence in long-term care homes. Can the minister confirm this information, and can he also confirm that the presence of these 500soldiers is indeed in response to a request from the Government of Quebec?", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, let me assure the member that when Quebec made a request for assistance at the beginning of April, we answered the call. When they asked for an extension of that, we said we would continue to provide that assistance. I had a conversation today with Minister Guilbault, my counterpart in Quebec, and we have renewed our commitment to continuing to provide assistance. That assistance can take additional forms and can include involving the Canadian Red Cross, but we remain committed to providing the assistance that Quebec needs.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "If I understand correctly, negotiations are still under way with the Government of Quebec, even though it needs these soldiers. The mission ends Friday. This isn't really the time to negotiate anymore. We have to make sure that the military will stay in our long-term care homes as long as we need their services in Quebec, and until new attendants have been trained. Can the minister confirm that the mission will indeed be extended?", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe" }, { "content": "I'd like to assure this House that we have assured Quebec that the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to provide support until such time as other trained professional people are able to do that job. We're working very hard with the Province of Quebec. We're working with the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross. We will be there for Quebeckers because they need our help, and as long as they need our help, we'll be there to support them.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "This isn't the time to play cat-and-mouse. The only thing we have to do is to give the Government of Quebec what it's asking for. Quebec pays 23%of the army's budget, so Quebeckers are entitled to this support. Quebec has more than 5,000deaths from COVID-19, 90%of which have been in seniors' residences or long-term care homes. The military's presence is vital because they play an extraordinary and essential role. Will the minister commit to extending the mission now and putting an end to this uncertainty? It's certainly bad for both the military and the health care workers, who rely on this support.", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe" }, { "content": "The hon. minister has 10seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Again, Madam Chair, let me be very clear. We have made a commitment to the Province of Quebec that we will continue to provide that support until the middle of September, exactly as they have requested, but we are also working to ensure that we have an sustainable, effective solution to the request that Quebec has made, so we're working with the Province of Quebec, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross to ensure the help that is needed is there.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "We will go now to Bryan May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure and an honour to be with you all today. I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member of Parliament for Scarborough North. Madam Chair, COVID-19 continues to create challenges for all Canadians, including those with disabilities, and exacerbates those experienced by Canadians with disabilities. As we mark the end of National AccessAbility Week, I would like to remind our colleagues that our commitment to making Canada more inclusive and equitable is ongoing, including our passing of the Accessible Canada Act. Would the minister inform the House about the government's plans to support Canadians with disabilities who are experiencing increased costs due to COVID-19?", "speaker": "Mr. Bryan May (Cambridge, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, last week was the first National AccessAbility Week that was legislated under the historic Accessible Canada Act, and I thank every party in this House for the consent they gave to that legislation. I'm hoping we have the same spirit of camaraderie for people with disabilities this afternoon. Since the beginning, Madam Chair, we have taken a disability inclusion approach on how we support people with disabilities in this time of pandemic, including the establishment of our COVID-19 disability advisory group, which has given us invaluable advice. I thank them so much for their contributions to our efforts. Last week we announced a suite of measures to support people with disabilities that complement existing measures that are in place. This includes a one-time payment of $600 to 1.25 million citizens with disabilities, which again is the subject matter of the legislation this afternoon, as well as a $15-million investment in an accessible workplace initiative that will ensure, moving forward.... We know that as we move back into employment situations it will be very tough for people with disabilities. Finally, there are five really exciting accessible technology initiatives, including working on point-of-sale terminals for Canadians who are blind or visually impaired.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)" }, { "content": "You may have a very short question, Mr. May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her department for all the work they are doing to ensure that accessibility is at the forefront of everybody's mind through this crisis.", "speaker": "Mr. Bryan May" }, { "content": "Mr. Chen is next.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as humanity battles COVID-19, we are confronted by the stark realities of another disease. On May 25, George Floyd fell unconscious and died as a police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes. This all happened after the 46-year-old black man was handcuffed and put in a position where he could do no harm. In Canada, we have come a long way since Viola Desmond, yet there is much more to do. Anti-black racism is institutionalized, hidden under dominant narratives of a free and multicultural society. Hatred has no boundaries, whether it is against black communities or is anti-Asian sentiment fuelled by COVID-19. The question always is this: Who is next? We must all stand up together against hatred and for justice and reconciliation, to dismantle systems of oppression that long remained unquestioned. Recent data from Statistics Canada shows that Canada is failing black youth, creating the conditions that push them into the justice system. To the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, my question is this: What is the government doing to address the unique challenges faced by black youth?", "speaker": "Mr. Shaun Chen (Scarborough North, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the member for Scarborough North is absolutely correct. We must all do what we can to stand up against hatred and injustice. We often say that today's youth are not only the leaders of tomorrow but the leaders of today, so we need to equip them for success by investing in youth. According to the 2016 census, black Canadians accounted for 1.2 million people, and more than a quarter of that population is under the age of 15. Socio-economic gaps, such as in employment and education, exist between black and non-black youth. We need to do better. Our government has brought forward youth so they can inform the decisions we make. We have Canada's first youth policy, and it was created by youth for youth to ensure that all young people are equipped to live healthy and fulfilling lives, and are empowered to create positive change for themselves and their communities. Our government launched the community support for black Canadian youth program, which supported 56 projects geared to address the unique challenges faced by black Canadian youth through the development of leadership skills and civic engagement, while empowering them through the promotion of black history, culture and identity. To address the challenges of the pandemic, our government has implemented a suite of measures designed to help youth and students, including with employment and service opportunities. My office is working with community organizations who serve black youth to make sure they too are both aware of and benefiting from these measures.", "speaker": "Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth)" }, { "content": "Ms. Mathyssen is next.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be splitting my time with the member for TimminsJames Bay. Schools in many provinces remain closed, and many child care providers want to reopen. They must reduce their capacity due to COVID-19. Now more than ever we need universal, publicly funded child care to restart the economy. Will the government bring in legislation that would enshrine into law access to, and federal funding for, quality affordable child care?", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (LondonFanshawe, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we are, of course, committed to investments in child care. We have constantly worked with provinces and territories to ensure that we provide the supports they need to provide quality, affordable and accessible child care. Since 2015, we have created over 40,000 child care spaces. We are committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)" }, { "content": "The government doesn't seem to understand that this is not universal child care. During COVID-19, women have lost the majority of jobs, and they have taken on the majority of additional child care responsibilities. Canadian women want and need to return to work, but this government doesn't understand that without affordable child care, they simply cannot re-enter the workforce. For 26 years, Liberal governments have been promising, but failing to deliver, a universal child care program. Parents are paying the price. How much longer do parents have to wait?", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for the important question. Since 2015, we have created 40,000 affordable, accessible, quality child care spaces across the country. We are on track to continue to invest $7.5 billion over 11 years to create additional child care spaces and support provinces and territories. We're constantly in touch with our counterparts to work to strengthen that sector. We are also keeping our promise and our commitment to create an additional 250,000 spaces. We will be there for parents as they get back to work, and we will continue to reinforce the early learning and child care sector.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen" }, { "content": "You have time for a very short question, Ms. Mathyssen.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Without universal child care, we are crippling our economy. We are not providing an affordable system, and this stops women from returning to work. Instead of helping parents return to work, the government is now bringing forward legislation that's penalizing them. Why is the government looking to sentence mothers and fathers to jail time and large fines when they cannot find the child care that", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen" }, { "content": "The honourable minister has time for a short answer.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We are committed to the early learning and child care sector. We will move forward with the creation of an early learning and child care secretariat. We will continue to invest in this sector. We recognize its importance.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen" }, { "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Angus.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an honour to be here, and I'm hoping that you and your family stay safe at this time. COVID has shaken up Canada's middle class, so my question is for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity. This morning I spoke with a businesswoman. She runs her own business, a travel agency, but because of COVID she has been wiped out. She's on CERB, and it's ticking down. There's no work to go back to, so in four weeks she hits the economic wall. Will the minister fight for an extension of CERB so this woman can stay in the middle class?", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we know how worried Canadians are as they see their final four-week period of the CERB approaching, and we're working very hard to ensure that the CERB continues to serve an important purpose as we move into economic recovery. I'll note that when we created the CERB, there was a different purpose in mind. We were asking people to stay home. Now we're asking people to go back to work if it's safe for them to do so. We're going to make sure that the wage subsidy and the CERB complement each other. In fact, the measures in today's legislation will help us to get the flexibility to be able to do just that.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We did give you a little more time. We will go to Mr. Angus.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. What I've seen with their legislation today is that they're talking about jailing people. We need a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity in a time of middle-class disparity, and she has talked about middle-class criminality. Let's talk about this again, about people going back to work. I spoke with a 51-year-old bartender. He's a professional; this is his job. There is no job to go back to. Will the minister assure us that this man will be able to stay in the middle class because the CERB will still be there in July, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus" }, { "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we've been helping Canadians by putting programs in place. We will continue to support families during the crisis, and afterwards as well.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier" }, { "content": "Mr. Angus, you have time for a very short comment or question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "The issue here is that when COVID hit, millions of Canadians were living in such precarious working conditions that they didn't even have enough money to pay their rent. That is a damning indictment. In four weeks, those Canadians are going to hit the economic wall again. What I need to know from the minister, and what Canadians need to know, is whether she will commit, yes or no, that the CERB will be there for those who have no work to go back to.", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have been helping families with a supplement to the Canada child benefit. We have put in place the Canada emergency response benefit. We will continue to find ways to support Canadian families during this crisis.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cooper.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It was all the way back on March 25 that the Minister of Finance stated that help for the energy sector was coming within hours, possibly days. Well, as it turns out, it hasn't been hours. It hasn't been days. It hasn't even been weeks. Indeed, months later, help has yet to arrive. Seventy-seven days after the minister made that statement, not a single energy company has received financing under EDC, the BDC, or the LEEFF program. As the energy sector faces an unprecedented liquidity crisis, how can this government possibly justify such a delay?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper (St. AlbertEdmonton, CPC)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, weeks ago we opened applications through the business credit availability program to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We've also opened applications for measures that will be available to our larger players through our LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry. We will continue to support workers, and we will continue to do so to get through this unprecedented challenge.", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, on June 2, the vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers said, The entire industry is frustrated with the delay that we are facing. The Saskatchewan Minister of Energy and Resources has spoken about a gaping hole that exists in terms of support for the energy sector. The gaping hole that I'm speaking of is the EDC and BDC programs that this government has failed to deliver upon. Indeed, it was on April 17 that those programs were announced, and 54 days later, not only has not a single energy company received financing, but guess what? They can't even apply, and the eligibility criteria have yet to be finalized after 54 days. If that is not failing to deliver for the energy sector, what is?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Business Council of Alberta has said that the LEEFF program is a positive development showing that the federal government recognizes the needs and value of Canada's large corporations. We agree. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through two crises: the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war initiated by Russia and Saudi Arabia. That's why, weeks ago, we opened applications for liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We also announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry to make sure these programs are effective.", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, contrary to the representations of the minister, neither the EDC program nor BDC programs are accepting applications. Just yesterday officials from both BDC and EDC were before the finance committee, where I posed precisely those questions to them. We know, Madam Chair, that the application process isn't up and running and that eligibility criteria remain to be determined, but I guess this government has some good news for the energy sector after 77 days. Now energy sector companies can go on the BDC website and apply for email updates. Is that the kind of help the Minister of Finance had in mind after 77 days: email updates instead of real relief for the energy sector?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Alberta finance minister, Travis Toews, said in a LEEFF announcement that in combination with earlier measures for small and medium-sized companies, it represented an expression of confidence in our industries. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through these two crisesas I said, the impact of COVID, and then on top of that, the effect of a global price war. We opened up applications for liquidity measures as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers asked. Their top five asks were all liquidity. We supported small and medium-sized players essential to the supply chain, who make up 85% of the jobs in that sector, and then we announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry and", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan" }, { "content": "I now have to interrupt for a few moments to allow our technicians to change places. With that done, Monsieur Martel, you may now go ahead..", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, there has recently been positive progress in AndrGauthier's case, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Prime Minister for their co-operation in this matter. However, Mr.Gauthier is currently on his own in the United Arab Emirates, without a passport, waiting to settle civil lawsuits. What services does the minister intend to provide to help him, and when does he plan to repatriate AndrGauthier to Canada?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, in all cases similar to Mr.Gauthier's, the Government of Canada, through its consular services, tries to do the best it can under the circumstances. This file is still active.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "The House recognized on February18, 2020, that the 15weeks of sickness benefits provided by employment insurance were insufficient. Citizens who became ill before March15 are now without help. They are being denied the CERB because they didn't lose their jobs because of COVID-19. They are being denied EI regular benefits because they are unable to work. In addition, some citizens are waiting for surgery, which is being delayed because of COVID-19. Is the government letting these people down?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "No, MadamChair, that's absolutely not the case. Of course, we understand that people who are no longer receiving EI benefits should have access to the CERB. We have committed to extending the emergency sickness benefit to 26weeks. We're working with everyone here to make that happen. We're taking into account the needs and circumstances of all citizens in our efforts to help Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "I've called on the Minister of Economic Development several times to be more flexible in establishing these programs, so that they are better adapted to the realities of the regions. Recently, it was the SMEs in Montreal that were monopolizing the funds earmarked for the regions. When will the Liberal government listen to the needs of regions like SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "I thank my colleague for the opportunity to announce the good news that was mentioned on Radio-Canada this morning, namely, $71million more for the regions of Quebec. Of course, we're here for the regions. I will be happy to work with my colleague to ensure that the CFDC in his region can support businesses. We have to support businesses in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean and across the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "I think that's a canned speech. According to a survey conducted by the Universit de Trois-Rivires in Quebec, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is apparently the most economically affected by COVID-19. We have many projects, but they depend on the government's leadership to be carried out. Our region has forestry, the aluminum sector, GNL Qubec, tourism, the Port of Saguenay, Davie Canada, a military base and a tax centre. It's all here. We know we'll have to get the economy moving again soon. When will the government act to help our region?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "Every day, we act to help my colleague's region. I've had good conversations with Promotion Saguenay. I've also spoken several times with various stakeholders in my colleague's beautiful region. We will always be there for them. I'd like to tell my colleague that there will be other announcements to support the economic development of the beautiful region of SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. I will be happy to work with him to achieve good results.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Sustainable forestry development is at the heart of the economic development of Canada and for SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. Canadians have reason to be proud of the use of the boreal forest in the fight against climate change. Currently, our innovative forest industry is experiencing many problems, and on top of that, there is the COVID-19 crisis. Who will defend our forestry workers?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "Of course, we believe in the importance of regional economic development. That's why we're always there to defend our forestry workers. I will also be pleased to work with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is very familiar with the matter and who knows the challenges faced by the various businesses in the forestry sector, as well as the employees. We will always be there to support employees and create more jobs across Quebec and the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota is next. Go ahead, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. We continue to see significant gaps in the Liberals' programs. There are still people who are falling through the cracks and being left behind. We are hearing from women who are pregnant or who have just given birth and are being left out or told to go back to work. When will this government stop letting Canadians down?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC)" }, { "content": "We know that there are many situations of Canadians who are about to or are just going on maternity or parental benefits who might not have access to their EI benefits due to not having accumulated enough time for COVID reasons. We're working very hard to make sure, as we did for fish harvesters, that we support all Canadians in these situations. I look forward to advising Canadians of our approach on this very soon.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, that simply isn't good enough. This is something that has been brought to the government's attention for months now, and still nothing has been done. These families deserve answers now. Had the government conducted a GBA+ analysis, they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women. Why wasn't a GBA+ conducted?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls. We are working hard to ensure that everyone has the supports they need. As we move forward, we are, as I said earlier, taking into consideration improvements to the EI system, the wage subsidy and the future of CERB. All these play together as we work to provide a comprehensive forward-looking support package for Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA+? Why was it not done?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB. I can tell you that women are benefiting significantly from this benefit.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, it is a simple question, and I will ask again. Why was GBA+ analysis not conducted for the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way, from the beginning, as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, if that's the case, then how did you miss these gaps?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we didn't miss gaps. We, from the beginning, looked to support as many people as possible. As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors, and today to supporting people with disabilities, we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures. As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery, of course we're going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the minister needs to take the responsibility here. These women and families deserve answers. This is a real problem happening right now. You said you would conduct GBA+ analysis on all policy measures moving forward. Where is the assistance for these expectant mothers?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I take responsibility. I'm very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures, how many women received the GST credit, how many women who lead families received the CCB one-time payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have all-party consent today.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota, may I remind you to please direct your questions through the chair?", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I will ask again, hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "My goodness, Madam Chair. I'll say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls, and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase, how completely we make women at the core of every decision.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota, you have 15 seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, my question is still not answered. She keeps repeating the same answer. I'll keep asking the same question, hoping for a straightforward answer. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Honourable minister, you have five seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we've taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning, and we'll continue to do so.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We go now to Mr. Carrie.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 I asked Minister Blair why Lisa Freeman, a constituent of mine, wasn't able to participate in the Parole Board hearing of her father's murderer. The minister acknowledged that this had been a mistake and that victims would now be able to attend by telephone and video conference. Can the minister tell this House how many parole hearings have been conducted under this digital format with victims since April 29?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank my honourable colleague for the question. I'm glad to hear that Minister Blair was able to provide information on the specific case he raises. With regard to his question, we're happy to provide it to him in due course.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship)" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 the minister said, and I quote, Steps have been taken to make it possible for victims to participate in those parole hearings virtually by phone or video conference. If the change has been made, can the minister please tell us how many hearings victims have been able to participate in by video conference?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, certainly we will confirm the number of hearings that may have occurred. With regard to the hearings under the Parole Board of Canada, we want to ensure that victims and others are able to participate in a fair and transparent manner.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, the website says, To protect the health and safety of the public, offenders, Parole Board...members and staff in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the PBC is currently conducting its hearings remotely via video conference or teleconference. However, when referring to victim participation, the PBC says it has Implemented technological and procedural enhancements in order to provide victims...the ability to participate...via telephone. If video conference is an option for staff and inmates, why is it not for victims?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, it is very important that all parties be able to participate before the Parole Board. The Parole Board has introduced technologies to allow victims to participate in a manner that is fair and that accords them the opportunity to express themselves.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the minister is missing the point. For victims, besides the criminal trial, the Parole Board hearings are the only chance to participate in the judicial process. Why are victims not permitted on the video conference, while staff, panels and inmates are?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said now on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in the hearings before the Parole Board. This is as a result of technology and innovations introduced by the Parole Board. Of course, those opportunities will continue to exist going forward.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Then, Madam Chair, why did the minister and this government tell Canadians and the House that victims of crime have the opportunity to participate in parole hearings by video conference, when in fact they do not?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said, of course we are going to confirm the status of that particular request. In the meantime, as I've said on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in these hearings. This is consistent with the fairness of those hearings and the due process we accord to them.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, it's been over a month. When will the minister finally give victims of crime the same right to parole hearings by video conference as he gives convicted inmates?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I reject that proposition. The Parole Board is a well-established tribunal that does allow for all parties, including victims, to participate in a manner that is fair, and that allows them to express themselves so those representations can be taken into account in the decisions of the Parole Board of Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "He can reject it as much as he wants, Madam Chair, but it seems he thinks it's fair that inmates have that right, but victims don't. We'll follow up with him on that. Brandon Hottot owns and operates a contracting business in my riding, and his company needs help. On May 19, the Prime Minister announced the government would allow sole proprietors and gig contractors to qualify for the Canada emergency business account; however, Brandon has still not been able to take advantage of this benefit. When can small business owners like Brandon expect this change to finally be made? It's been over three weeks, and the clock is ticking.", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, from the very beginning, we have been working hard to support our small businesses. Over 660,000 businesses today have received access to small business loans. I want to assure my colleague that additional support will be there within about a week.", "speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade)" }, { "content": "Mr. Carrie, you may have a very short question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Okay, Madam Chair. Shawn and Denise operate a gymnastics facility in Whitby and have been forced to close throughout COVID-19. As the economy begins to open, they are concerned about not having the money to pay their employees in the short term, especially at a reduced client capacity. Is the government extending the wage subsidy to small businesses that have been closed and are just beginning to open now?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "The wage subsidy has been extended until August 31. We hope businesses like that one will be able to take advantage of the wage subsidy to keep their employees on staff.", "speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng" }, { "content": "We will go now to Ms. May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to put it on the record, because we may or may not be debating it, the draft embargoed bill that we've seen is unacceptable to members of the Green Party caucus. My questions will relate largely to those sections that are troublesome. I'll start with a question to the honourable minister for disabilities. I certainly appreciate her work and I know her intentions are the best, but part 3 of this bill allows for the information to be shared so people can get a one-time payment of $600, which is not enough to really deal with the COVID crisis for people with disabilities. It's clearand I thank the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party for making this point clearly in question periodit will reach approximately 40% of people with disabilities because of the structure of going through the disability tax credit. To the honourable minister, are other measures under consideration to reach the rest of the people in Canada with disabilities who need help?", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the disability support payment we are proposing and that we hope to get through the House today complements a whole suite of measures our government has put in place that people with disabilities have access to. We know that people with disabilities who were precariously employed are now taking advantage of the CERB. Students with disabilities get the student benefit, including a $750-per-month top-up for four months. Families with children with disabilities are getting the CCB payment. Disproportionately, people with disabilities are benefiting from the GST payment. I should talk about the provincial letters that are being delivered to recipients of provincial disability supports. All around, Madam Chair, we're trying to get to every citizen with a disability, and this measure fills an important gap.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Much worse than part 3, from our point of view, is the treatment of people who are at this point potentially to be jailed for refusing to return to work when it's considered reasonable and they are recipients of CERB. I wonder about the reasonableness here. It's a subjective test. This is a wrong-headed approach to go after people and threaten them. The retroactive section has already made the Canadian Civil Liberties Association question its constitutionality. To the minister, what's reasonable, and in whose eyes is it reasonable? In today's news, Hamilton's chief medical officer says there is a spike in cases among young people, who likely were exposed while taking public transit to get to work. Their commute wasn't safe. Who determines reasonableness in deciding it's not safe to go back to work?", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as with the current CERB, moving forward it tries to encompass the situations of people who are unemployed, people who can't work because of child care responsibilities, people who are ill or sick. Moving to a broad term of reasonableness allows us to look at the individual circumstances of the person. If we stuck to language like suitable or appropriate, that would qualify the job. We're trying to look at the person and their particular circumstances as we work to ensure that if someone is immunocompromised and can't take transit to their job, then it's reasonable for them not to take that job. That's the exact example we're trying to encompass with broad reasonableness criteria.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "The approach is so very flawed, Madam Chair, in that it attempts to punish people as opposed to encouraging them. I think the Liberals have been overly influenced by the Conservative Party's cries that there's vast fraud, that Canadians are cheating. The reality is that if you want to create an incentive to go back to work, you don't threaten people. What you do is create a sliding scale. You let people continue to receive CERB, but maybe less as they begin to earn more, so that you have a transition on a sliding scale to go into the wage subsidy or into CERB. I ask the honourable minister this: How can it be considered fair to say that someone isn't eligible, even though they believed they were? The language in this bill, particularly at proposed paragraph 12.1 in the penalties section, is an unreasonable determination that someone has violated the act and is subject to jail time and heavy fines.", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, because of parliamentary privilege, I can't and won't speak to specific acts of a piece of law that hasn't actually been introduced in the House, but I'll tell you that what we're trying to do is enhance our integrity measures. We're working with those people who made an honest mistake, those who took advantage of returning to work when they were still receiving the CERB. We're working with those people. We're absolutely confident that those people will find a path forward. We want to deal with intentional fraudsters, people who are criminally taking advantage of seniors. Members of this House have brought fact patterns to my attention and have said, Please deal with these. This is exactly what we're trying to deal with, Madam Chair.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from EsquimaltSaanichSooke. Tourism is a critical part of the economy throughout my riding, and after struggling with years of forest fires and floods, tourism was set to have a record-breaking year in 2020, but the COVID epidemic has burned tourism to the ground, in the words of a local leader. Thousands of jobs have evaporated. Over half of the tourism businesses in the region are facing imminent insolvency. Many of them are small seasonal operations that don't qualify for any of the government's COVID support programs. While funding for ad campaigns is appreciated, these businesses need direct support and they need certainty about that support. Can the finance minister pledge now to provide direct and timely support to tourism businesses in my riding?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings" }, { "content": "Thank you to my colleague for his important question. I agree with him. The tourism sector has been deeply impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis. Yes, we were looking forward to another record-breaking year in 2020, but unfortunately the pandemic happened, and therefore many businesses were impacted. That's why, as a government, we're there to help with the wage subsidy, which has been extended until the end of August, as the tourism sector has been asking us to do; with the CEBA loans, the $40,000 loans, which also include a subsidy; and with the commercial rent relief. That said, we know the tourism sector also sometimes falls through the cracks. That's why we wanted to have a backstop. We came up with funding through the regional development agencies. In my colleague's riding, it's Western Economic Diversification. Some businesses have applied and have received funding. If there are more that need help, please come and see me. I would love to be there to help your community, help tourism", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "A big part of tourism in my riding is the wine sector. One thing that has allowed the wine industry to grow so dramatically in the past few decades is the excise tax exemption. That exemption could likely end very soon if it is found to be non-compliant with our trade agreements. The industry has proposed a trade-legal replacement, the wine growers' value-added program. The finance minister has known about this situation for months. Can he assure this House and the industry that the government will act immediately to implement this program?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We continue to work on this issue. We recognize how important the wine industry is in B.C., and I assure the honourable member that I will come back to him and give him an update.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Garrison.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, this is National Blood Donor Week in Canada. While blood and plasma donations are always important, during this pandemic they're critical. There's a simple and effective way to increase the blood supply: End the gay blood ban. More than 17 other countries have no deferral because they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than identity-based exclusions. The Liberals must agree, because they promised this in two election campaigns. Will the Minister of Health do more than repeat those same promises today and instead take action to get this unscientific and discriminatory gay blood ban lifted?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison (EsquimaltSaanichSooke, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I'm glad to be able to answer this very important question. We indeed want to fight against discrimination. We feel this particularly strongly in the context of the last few days and the last few weeks. We are also mindful of the important contribution of scientists and other experts in this area. We look forward to working with all members in this House in making progress on that issue.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board)" }, { "content": "The government knows I've been calling on friends, family and allies of the gay community to donate blood this week in the place of those of us who cannot. Not only do we need routine blood donations, but to do the research we need on possible prevention and treatment of COVID-19, we urgently need plasma donations from those who have recovered. This ban means that plasma donations are being rejected for no good scientific reason. Again, when will the Minister of Health act to get this ban lifted?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I think the member used the right key words in referring to science and more prevention work to make sure that everyone lives in dignity and safety. Although there has been progress in the last few months and years on this important issue, there is more work to be done.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos" }, { "content": "Six years ago this week, I tabled a motion in the House that called for an end to this homophobic and transphobic ban on blood donations from gay men, men who have sex with men and trans women. That was five ministers of health ago. At the time, I was told certain things had to happen before the ban could be lifted. These were all due to be completed earlier this year, before the COVID crisis. Since we appear to have cross-party support for my new motion, M-41, that I put on the notice paper this week, would the minister and the government agree to support a unanimous consent motion to proceed with M-41 immediately?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a short answer, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Homophobia and transphobia are examples of discrimination and absolutely important things not only to recognize but to fight against. That's why we are pleased to have voices such as the member of Parliament's voice to make sure that we make progress in making sure that everyone in Canada lives in safety and in dignity.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchette-Joncas.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I will share my time with the honourable member for LongueuilSaint-Hubert. As Quebec starts to gradually emerge from the general lockdown, the outlook for the recovery of the tourism industry remains bleak. The economy of several regions of Quebec depends on tourism to ensure stability and balance, which will be beneficial in the coming months. Is the Minister of Finance prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit beyond 16weeks to ensure a living wage for tourism workers?", "speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, as I said in English, we're working very hard to continue to be there for all Canadians, whether it's through the CERB or the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Please excuse me, I'm very tired. I'll continue in English. We're going to have news on this very soon, Madam Chair, but the point is that we want to make sure that all of these programs work well together, whether it's the wage subsidy or the CERB. We want to make sure that we incentivize work, but we still continue to be there for Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We read that the government wants to gradually replace the Canada emergency response benefit by using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. That's all well and good, but seasonal industries aren't entitled to it under the current criteria. If the minister is aware of the importance of the tourism industry in the economic cycle of our regions, he must commit to helping workers. If the clientele isn't there, the industry will simply no longer exist. We still need the Canada emergency response benefit. We simply need to make it an employment incentive so as not to hurt people who are lucky enough to be able to go back to work. The question is simple: will the government commit to renewing it?", "speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we are working hard to make sure we continue to support Canadians as we transition through economic recovery. We want to make sure that we support Canadians, but of course we don't want to disincentivize work. The CERB was created for a different purpose. We asked people to stay home to be safe and to self-isolate if they had symptoms. We want to make sure that as we ask people to go back to work, we don't disincentivize work, but the reality is that there won't be jobs there for everyone, and we need to continue to support everyone.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Mr.Trudel, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I join my colleague in extending my good wishes to you on Portugal's national day. Apart from the fact that it is probably the most beautiful riding in Quebec, the riding of LongueuilSaint-Hubert has surely been one of the hardest hit by the pandemic, both in terms of health and the economy. There are industries here, but also many service businesses, including bars, restaurants and theatres. But we aren't close to being able to go back and see a show by WajdiMouawad or FredPellerin, and that's a shame. We must work to calm the anxiety of these people. The arts sector was the first to stop its activities and will be the last to resume them. There is a lot of anxiety. The CERB ends on July4. Will the government extend the CERB, with an employment incentive?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I thank my colleague for his question and all the work he's doing in arts and culture. From the outset, we've been there to support our artists and arts organizations. We introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, for example, but also the emergency wage subsidy, which we made available to non-governmental organizations. To ensure that people who receive royalties aren't penalized under the Canada emergency response benefit, we have adapted it. We announced a $500million fund to specifically help the arts and culture sector. In fact, we understand very well that this sector has been severely affected by the current crisis. We've been there for our artists and artisans, and we will continue to be.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Perfect. Instead of giving a long preamble, I'll ask a very simple question: will the CERB be extended on July5?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel" }, { "content": "The hon. minister has the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member opposite that in July we will be there for Canadian workers.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "In my riding, a nice little restaurant called Crpe Caf on St-Charles Street in Longueuil has just closed its doors. It's final; it won't reopen. Another restaurant owner told me that he was going to reopen his restaurant, but he didn't know at what capacity. Would it be at 15%, 30%, 40%? No one knows. The speed at which the economy will recover is the big unknown. How many hours a week will it be able to offer its employees? Will it be 12hours, 15hours, 22hours? Will employees even want to return to work to put in 12hours a week? If the CERB isn't adjusted, nothing will happen. Will the government commit to extending the CERB and providing an employment incentive to get the economy moving again at full speed?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I know, of course, that the restaurant sector has been much affected. I have a great deal of empathy for what entrepreneurs and my colleague are going through in his riding. That's why we are currently helping our SMEs. We have money for economic development. The money is available through Canada Economic Development, or CED. If my colleague wants to work with me to provide support to restaurant owners and other restaurants in Longueuil, I'd be very happy to do so.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Bragdon.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, last month, on May 5, I asked the government how it plans to support the agriculture sector. The Liberals announced a $50-million food surplus purchase program as part of the agricultural aid package. Now, one month later, our farmers, who provide the food we need, are still waiting on funds to be delivered. The New Brunswick potato industry is sitting on a massive amount of last year's crop that, because of the pandemic, has no buyers. When will the Prime Minister and the government step up and deliver the support our farmers so desperately need?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, without question we want to continue to support farmers. My colleague Minister Bibeau has introduced hundreds of millions of dollars for farmers. In addition to that, we have provided relief and support for migrant workers, who are ensuring that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, when support for the agriculture sector was announced on May 4, our agriculture sector had been sounding the alarm for weeks that they needed help to continue to meet Canadians' food needs. It has been over a month since that announcement, and our farmers are still waiting for help. It is worth noting, Madam Chair, that vegetables like the potatoes in New Brunswick that I previously mentioned are perishable products. Our farmers do not have the luxury of time. Again, will the Prime Minister and this government make agriculture a priority and provide them with the support they desperately need right now?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, obviously we believe in the importance of our regions and our rural communities, and that's why we've always made sure that agriculture was at the core of many of the decisions throughout this pandemic. That's why our colleague Minister Bibeau, who is the Minister of Agriculture, has been there providing the right liquidity and the right support through this pandemic. Of course we want to make sure that we continue to partner with provinces and territories, because we need their help in this context to make sure that all together we show strong economic support for our farmers, who are going through tough times.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "On May 1 the Liberals introduced a sweeping firearms ban through an order in council that outlawed 1,500 firearms. Recent reports show that since then, more and more firearms are quietly being added to the list of banned firearms, including many common hunting rifles and shotguns. Madam Chair, our hunters, outfitters, dealers and sport shooters are some of the most vetted members of our society. Why does the Prime Minister insist on making criminals out of law-abiding firearms owners instead of dealing with the criminals we already have?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I am very proud of this government's record when it comes to ensuring that we take out of our communities those guns that have one objective only, and that is to kill other people. We will always stand by that record, and we will continue to take the necessary steps to keep our communities safe.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Liberals have said that to compensate firearms owners, they will implement a national buyback program. Instead of targeting law-abiding firearms owners and their legally purchased private property, wouldn't the estimated quarter of a billion dollars needed to buy back these firearms be better utilized right now in supporting our agricultural sector, the very people who grow our food and literally keep our land?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, of course we look forward to saying more about that, but of course we remain committed to taking those guns that have only one objective, and that is to kill people. The legislation we have introduced and the measures we have taken are designed to keep our communities safe, and of course we will do that. We will also continue to support farmers, introducing hundreds of millions of dollars in support because we know they are providing Canadians with affordable food.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Mr. Bragdon, you have time for a short question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, many sole proprietors have been hit extremely hard by this pandemic. My office has heard from many who have been in business for nearly 30 years and have submitted hundreds of HST returns, yet still cannot access the CEBA funding because they do not have a business chequing account, as a lot of small business owners use their personal chequing accounts to do their business. The Liberals offered aid to sole proprietors but attached unnecessary hurdles that prevent many of them from accessing the funds they desperately need to keep their businesses afloat. When will these unnecessary hurdles be removed so businesses can start to receive the relief they so desperately need?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "We will have a very short answer from the honourable minister.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We believe in the importance of making sure we're supporting our businesses, including sole proprietors. That is why our colleague, Minister Ng, the minister for small business, has been working on this and will continue to make sure we take the appropriate steps to recognize that. Meanwhile, people can definitely come to the regional development agencies if they don't have access to funding through banks, and that's a good way to make sure there is a backstop.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Please note that, pursuant to the Standing Order made on April20 and May26, the House has been recalled. Therefore, the committee will adjourn, and the House will begin sitting at 2:30p.m. The bells will be rung to call members, and a parade will begin the sitting. The meeting is adjourned.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" } ]

[ { "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 20thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. As a reminder to all members, in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not be connected to the video conference. I want to remind those who are participating by video conference that, when they talk, they must use the channel that corresponds to the language they are speaking in. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. We are moving on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on. We will now move on to document submissions. The honourable minister, Mr. Blair.", "speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2019 annual report on the RCMPs use of the law enforcement justification provisions. This report addresses the RCMP's use of specified provisions within the law enforcement justification regime, which is set out in subsections 25 to 25 of the Criminal Code. This report also documents the nature of the investigations in which these provisions were used.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)" }, { "content": "On tabling of documents, we have Minister Sajjan.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 32, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2018-19 progress report on Canada's national action plan for the implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security.", "speaker": "Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence)" }, { "content": "Now we'll go to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of a special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Members who are participating in the meeting in person are kindly asked to bring the signed certificate to the office once the petition has been presented. Presenting petitions, Ms. May.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to present two petitions. They both pertain to the protection of our natural world. One is an e-petition, and it relates to the threat to pollinators globally. We know that honey bees and other pollinators are essential to food production. The petitioners note that research from around the world points to a threat to pollinators, particularly from a class of pesticides known as neonicotinoids. The European Union has taken action on this. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to practise a precautionary principle and remove from use neonicotinoids in Canada to protect our pollinators. The second petition relates to the ongoing threat to the southern resident killer whales. These iconic whales are much beloved in SaanichGulf Islands, throughout coastal British Columbia and indeed across Canada. The petitioners are calling for more action to be taken as the population of southern resident killer whales continues to decline, more action for boat-free safety zones, more prohibitions around whale tourism to make sure that the whales are safe from those who are keen to watch them from too close a distance, and more of a credible enforcement regime to support these measures to keep the southern resident killer whale population in our waters and not on the list of species that have become extinct.", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Genuis.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, for over 10 years, members of Parliament from various parties have been trying to pass legislation to deal with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. Irwin Cotler, Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Senator Salma Ataullahjan and I have all proposed bills on this. The petitioners want the House to support Bill S-204. This is another bill that would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. I'm sure petitioners would want me to add that, given the urgency of this issue, perhaps the government could consider bringing forward a government bill on this issue, which would allow the process to move much faster.", "speaker": "Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise here today to present a petition from Canadian citizens in support of motion M-1, which was placed in this House by my colleague the member for New WestminsterBurnaby on the green new deal. These citizens point out that climate change has escalated into a global climate emergency and that Canada must act with ambition and urgency. They call on the government to support M-1, a made in Canada green new deal, to take bold and rapid action to adopt socially equitable climate action to tackle the climate emergency and address worsening socio-economic and racial inequalities at the same time while ending fossil fuel subsidies, closing offshore tax havens, and supporting workers impacted by the transition by creating well-paying, unionized jobs in the shift to a clean and renewable energy economy.", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Johns.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and privilege to table e-petition 2577, which was sponsored by Chris Alemany from Port Alberni and is supported by 5,183 petitioners. They're calling on the Government of Canada to work urgently across party lines and in partnership with provincial and territorial governments to implement a guaranteed, consistent, national and livable universal basic income system for all Canadians. The petition is very timely, coming almost one year to the day since the completion of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which also called on the government to establish a guaranteed annual livable income for all Canadians. Whether it's about providing a safety net to get through a global pandemic, the means to keep your children out of poverty at any time, or simply being able to afford safe housing or transportation, it's time for Canada to have this conversation.", "speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Manly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and a privilege to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of NanaimoLadysmith. People are concerned about gas fracking and the use of methane and the destruction that methane causes to our atmosphere and with climate change. They're calling on the government to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on the Wet'suwet'en territory, and by ordering the RCMP to dismantle their exclusion zone and to stand down. They also call on the government to schedule nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentswhich is something that we're happy to see has been happening and I commend the government for that effortand to prioritize the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.", "speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)" }, { "content": "Next is Mr. Lamoureux.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, like Canada, Guyana is part of the Commonwealth, and many constituents of Winnipeg North have raised the issue with regard to the presidential election back in March, when it was being called into question. There have been some very positive indications in recent days, but the petitioners are asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to be aware of what's taking place in Guyana, and as much as possible, to be advocates for democracy and make sure that we're being diligent in supporting what the people of Guyana want to see.", "speaker": "Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.)" }, { "content": "I just want to remind the honourable members, when presenting petitions, to be as concise as possible. I notice they're starting to stretch a bit and it's something we all tend to do. Now we'll go to Statements by Members. The first statement will be from Mr. Lefebvre.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID-19. I am proud of all my constituents, and all Canadians, including first responders, volunteers, health care and essential workers, local miners, the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families, and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff. I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks; Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer; Nobel Prize winner SNOLAB's work on ventilators, which earned a federal contract; Vale Canada's $1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID-19 health solutions; and many more. We are all in the same boat, but we will get out of it together.", "speaker": "Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Sudbury, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Dalton.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Pitt Meadows is one of Canada's most beautiful communities. It's tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain. Most of the area consists of farmland, golf courses, parks and conservation areas. It also has Pitt Lake, which is among the largest freshwater tidal lakes in the world. Pitt Meadows' history dates back thousands of years with Katzie First Nation. In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for today's bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries. It's hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nation's busiest general aviation airports. Last weekend the community came together to celebrate Pitt Meadows Day a little differently because of COVID. In a great show of community spirit, from their front yards and balconies, thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city. I am thankful to have raised my family here, taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community.", "speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Kelloway.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times. Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been, it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through. Whether it is someone like Glen Muise, who delivers iPads to seniors' homes so they can connect with loved ones, teachers who deliver meals to students in need, Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas, two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast, or Rose Fitzgerald, who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county, constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need. Mr. Chair, as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso. The people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia care deeply about one another. They know that as a community, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable people, and I cannot help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding. Thanks so much.", "speaker": "Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape BretonCanso, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Ms. Brub, go ahead.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash, whose commitment I commend, to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec. The Bloc is open to the idea, but we shouldn't wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action. There are already potential solutions for taking action. Commissions have been issuing reports for decades, and Ottawa has been tabling them. Last year alone, the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations. The federal government must work with indigenous peoples, Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces. Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP. Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures. Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the long-overdue reconciliation. Let's take action.", "speaker": "Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ)" }, { "content": "I give the floor to Mr.MacKinnon.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues, I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020. We know that, owing to the pandemic, graduation celebrations will be different this year, as students will be deprived of their prom, their graduation ceremony and, in some cases, their goodbyes to friends and teachers. I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant, LeCarrefour, Nicolas-Gatineau, de l'rablire, Collge Saint-Alexandre, Collge Nouvelles Frontires, Collge Saint-Joseph, Philemon-Wright and other regional schools, are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis. However, that takes nothing away from their accomplishment. So when they receive their diploma, here is what I will say to them: Surge ahead! The future belongs to you. Be ambitious, follow your dreams and, most importantly, continue to change the Outaouais and the world! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time.", "speaker": "Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Morantz.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre, which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg. This state-of-the-art addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott, Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce, who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011. The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community. I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council. The addictions crisis in Canada needs action. With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions, we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction. I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality. Addictions affect us all, and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution.", "speaker": "Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Jowhari.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill. Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty. I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services. I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which, upon receiving these donations, redoubled their efforts to serve their communities. Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation Long-Term Care Centre, Divine Favour Senior Homecare, the Community & Home Assistance to Seniors, the True Compassion Home Health centre, Blue Door, the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program, Yellow Brick House, Hill House Hospice, Community Living York South, and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill. The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament.", "speaker": "Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Madam Lalonde.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Usually, at this time of the year, I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans. However, we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year. I cannot express enough how, in these exceptional times, I have witnessed the strength, resilience and community spirit of our graduates. I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class. Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school, the cole secondaire catholique Batrice-Desloges, had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success. As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future. We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them. We will not fail. I thank the teachers, the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work. Congratulations to all graduates of 2020.", "speaker": "Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Vis.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives. For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely. The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit, most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection, even though Internet is an essential service. Those in underserved areas, including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, cannot work from home and their children cannot keep up with their classmates. For many of my indigenous constituents, Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies don't want to serve them. I, along with my colleagues, launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions. We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada. This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved.", "speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. McLeod.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada has been awarded its first-ever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme. Congratulations go to Lutsl K' Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation, with support from Deninu K'ue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area. It's 14,000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you'll find anywhere on earth. I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canada's $7.9-million commitment, along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year. The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large. Congratulations to Lutsl K'.", "speaker": "Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Falk.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Liberal government has tabled $87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study, debate and pass it. The allocated time is wholly inadequate. Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent. They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament. It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this government's spending. It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy. It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal government's programs fail to meet their intended goals. A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy. Canadians are owed better. Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting, parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do.", "speaker": "Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC)" }, { "content": "We now go to Mr. Godin.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Our planet is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. Our daily lives have been turned upside down. I am thinking of you, our seniors, valuable individuals who built our country. You have gone through a very restrictive confinement. You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families. Our students also had to adapt. Their school year was turned on its head. Our graduating class, especially, saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish. The future belongs to them. They must follow their dreams. I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things. We have all taken on our important responsibility, that of following the guidelines. The results have been most compelling in my riding. I want to say how proud I am to represent you here, in the Canadian Parliament. I thank each and everyone of you. You are helping PortneufJacques-Cartier flourish. You have shown resilience, creativity, innovation and solidarity. That is commendable. Together, we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger.", "speaker": "Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Gazan.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg, led by women and non-binary individuals, who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality. We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism. We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power. We will speak out against police violence. We will speak out against systemic racism. We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us, not abuse us. We will call out those who abuse their power. We will rise. We will rise. We will rise. To all the women and non-binary folks who are standing, I say, let's continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected. Our liberation is intertwined. Solidarity.", "speaker": "Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)" }, { "content": "Mrs.DeBellefeuille, go ahead.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID-19. However, the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister. First, he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition, while the economic recovery must be prepared. He is refusing to provide an economic update, even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic. He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers. The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave, and not after it. Finally, today, he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed. He is behaving as if he had a majority government. This is not a time for recklessness. Governing means anticipating. I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together.", "speaker": "Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Uppal.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic. I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods' Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors. Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and Dil-E-Punjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals. Sikh Youth Edmonton delivered free groceries to families, seniors and students. Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton. The Bhartiya Cultural Society Hindu temple provided free meals to anyone who needed them. Punjab Insurance and The Punjab chain of restaurants provided free meals in downtown Edmonton. The staff, nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy. I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength, resilience and compassion as we move forward together.", "speaker": "Hon. Tim Uppal (Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now proceed to Mr. Fonseca.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today is Portugal Day, celebrated both in Portugal and around the world by Portuguese. In Canada, June has been recognized as Portuguese Heritage Month. We're truly happy to recognize the great contributions made by Canadians of Portuguese descent. This year is a difficult one, though, for all of us, including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation. Our prayers and well wishes are with everyone. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times. Your warmth, hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally. As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family, I know this year will be a lot different from previous years. I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal, and please continue to support our local businesses. ", "speaker": "Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We now begin the period of questions for ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for sitting to substitute each other very safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister is doing everything to avoid being accountable to Canadians. He is refusing to table a budget, refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work. Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities, but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that. I hope the opposition parties will allow a vote and a debate in the House on this important bill.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister wants parliamentarians to vote on aspects of the government's spending. We want the Auditor General to be able to examine that government spending. Under the government, the Auditor General has had to do more with less, and her ability to conduct audits is being affected. The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits, despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending. I have a simple question. Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job, yes or no?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor General's office in 2018-19, and the equivalent of 38 full-time staff were added. We support the Auditor General, unlike the Conservative government, which fired 60 people from the Auditor General's office. We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon, and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "The Prime Minister is again engaged in revisionist history. He well knows that it was the Auditor General's office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies, which did not affect its ability to do the job. In fact, as the interim auditor general, John Wiersema, said, We would not have proposed if we didnt think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament. Only the government's refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor General's ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve, and we wonder why. This is the government that cannot explain where 20,000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars' worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone. They can't identify that. Then there is, of course, the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank, which has completed precisely zero projects. Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, talking of revisionist history, Stephen Harper's Conservatives cut $6.5 million from the Auditor General's budget and fired 60 staff. On the contrary, we worked with the Auditor General's office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new full-time staff. We will continue to demonstrate openness and transparency. We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament, whom the Conservatives, in their time in office, showed no respect for. We will continue to move forward in a way that has led, for example, to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians. The Conservatives don't seem to want that debate or vote.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position. The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did, so I understand why he likes to live in the past. In May, the interim auditor general said, Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. With our current resources, we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year. That's half the number of audits, despite a massive explosion in government spending. The Auditor General's office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done. Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor General's office, yes or no?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we very much look forward to working with the new Auditor General to ensure that her office has the ability to continue the important audits and transparency measures that are foundational to our institutions. Speaking of what is foundational to our institutions, this afternoon we're putting forward a bill that would help Canadians across the country, and we've proposed to debate and vote on that bill. It actually looks like the Conservatives and other opposition parties might not want this. They have been complaining about not having debates and votes in Parliament, and now they're proposing not to have them. That's a little head-scratching. We hope they're going to help Canadians.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "We will continue with Mr.Blanchet.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We may have a chance here to replace a problem with a good opportunity. This morning, we heard many groups and organizations that represent people with a disability express their concerns over the bill introduced by the government, which I feel is chocolate pudding containing cod liver oil. We agree with the chocolate pudding. We are favourable to helping people with a disability. People don't know the rules. They don't knowI am telling them nowthat a bill can be divided. It can be cut into parts and voted on in parts. The rest of the bill can be enhanced. I am saying to the Prime Minister that, if he presents the part on disabled individuals, it will be passed at the speed of light. He won't even see it happen. Is he prepared to divide the bill, so that we can work together to help people with a disability?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ)" }, { "content": "The bill that we are proposing this afternoon will certainly help people living with disabilities. We can always recognize that this is important, and every party should be open to it. We will also increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit from four-week intervals to two weeks. We will also expand the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses will have access to it. I am always willing to work with members of the opposition to ensure that we adopt these measures, all or some of the measures. We want to help Canadians. We look forward to debating and voting on this later today.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "It is a glorious day. I heard all or some of the measures. That means that we are not adopting them all at the same time and that the bill is being split. Can the Prime Minister confirm that he is in fact going to split his bill so that we can address the various components separately, since they have nothing to do with each other, and improve them, in keeping with our mandate as elected officials?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "Our goal on this side of the House, and it is shared by all members of the House, is to help Canadians during the pandemic. We have put forward a number of measures that will help Canadians in a tangible way. Yes, that includes Canadians living with disabilities, but it also includes businesses that cannot, but should be able to, access the wage subsidy. In addition, we are going to make the Canada emergency response benefit more flexible. I look forward to continuing the discussions", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchet has the floor.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "We almost had some clarity, but one swallow does not make a summer. Yes, there is a need for discussions on the Canada emergency response benefit. The government says that it wants to transform the program into something very coercive, without admitting that the lack of an employment incentive has essentially sabotaged another program, the wage subsidy. That deserves some thought. That is what we are elected to do. We do not need to spend eight months on this, we can fix it in a few hours. When the government says that we are going to have to vote on this, it means rubber stamping its bill. We have the right to debate it, to have discussions and to improve it. I watched the election on the night of October21. It was a beautiful night. It was more fun than a hockey game. People elected a minority government. Can the government admit that?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "We are not proposing only to vote on this bill this afternoon, we are proposing to debate it. It is the role and responsibility of all of us in the House to exchange ideas and to work together to help Canadians. That is exactly what we are proposing this afternoon. It is about helping people with disabilities, increasing the flexibility of the CERB, and expanding the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses have access to it. I look forward to debating this with my colleagues opposite.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchet, you have 43seconds left.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "That will be enough. I would be remiss if I allowed the Prime Minister to mislead people quite unintentionallyI say this in accordance with the Standing Orders. When we introduce a bill, we discuss it at second reading, we vote, we continue to discuss it and we send it to committee. All that can be done very quickly. However, we must be able to amend and improve this bill. That is how the normal Parliament works. The government doesn't like being in a minority situation. It behaves as if it were a majority government, but it is not. Can we follow the real procedures of Parliament, do a proper job, and then have a vote that is likely to suit the majority of members, not just the Prime Minister?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, my hon. colleague seems to completely forget that we are going through a pandemic. The COVID-19 crisis requires different actions on our part. That is why we provided the text of the bill to the opposition parties four days ago. We have been working with them for hours over the past three or four days to amend the bill, if they had amendments to propose. That is how we are taking action to help Canadians quickly during this crisis, and that is what we will continue to do.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Singh, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities, will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit. We hope to be able to debate it.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "As I said, Mr. Chair, discussions are ongoing on that, but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them, as we have been.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, a family that needs to buy groceries can't take those pretty words and buy groceries with them. We're asking the Prime Minister to extend the CERB for families in need. Will the Prime Minister do that, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to be there for Canadians in the right way. We are engaged with stakeholders, with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I can tell you what the right way is. Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he's an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened. He is now dependent on the CERB. He wants to go back to work, but there's no work. He sent an email saying he's faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he's frightened that if the CERB runs out, and it is planned to run out at the end of this month, then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet. Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, and as we have been saying from the beginning, we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it. The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon. We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities, to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB. He doesn't even want to debate those things. He doesn't even want to be voting on them. Will the NDP allow us to move forward on these important measures for Canadians?", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, let's talk about those measures. One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities. Now the government's plan is only going to help 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40%, or a significant portion, of people with disabilities, he wants to help none of them, because he's not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill. That's unfortunate. We're always happy to look at how we can do more. We have demonstrated from the beginning that we want to do more for Canadians. I look forward to working with the NDP. I am hoping those members change their minds and allow us to have an important debate this afternoon.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Let's talk about the 60% who aren't being helped. They are veterans living with disabilities, those who receive CPP and those who receive disability payments. Often it's the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who won't be helped with the plan the government is proposing. Will the government help all Canadians living with disabilities?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our proposal will help 100% of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit, including many veterans. The fact is that we are there to support the disability community. We are there to support Canadians with disabilities. Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation?", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Singh, we have 43 seconds for a question and an answer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, that's the exact problem with the Liberal proposal. It's a tax credit approach, which excludes the vast majority of Canadians living with disabilities. That is the wrong approach. We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB, if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities, we will move forward. Will the government do that?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I have said from the beginning, we look forward to continuing to work with the members opposite to keep moving forward to help Canadians. However, we need the opposition parties to actually choose to help Canadians and not to play political games. I hope we're going to be able to actually have a debate and a vote on this important legislation this afternoon.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "We're now going to take a short pause to allow staff to change up in a safe way respecting COVID-19 procedure. The floor now goes to Mr. Rayes.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, can the Prime Minister tell us whether we will have an economic update by the end of June?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. It is of course very important to be transparent. When the situation is stable, we will have", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)" }, { "content": "Once again, the floor goes to Mr.Rayes.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, most of the provinces in Canada are working on tabling economic updates by the end of June. Why is the Liberal government unable to do so as well?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "I understand the importance of transparency and that is why we are trying every day to explain our investments to Canadians and to continue to be transparent with them.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "The Liberal government announced hundreds of billions of dollars in new spending during the pandemic, but it still refuses to provide an economic update in order to be transparent with Canadians. In times of crisis, monitoring the situation is more important than ever. I repeat my question: why does this government not want to table an economic update by the end of June, when the provinces are doing so?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "Every day, we explain the economic situation, our investments, the changes we are making, and our programs to improve the situation of Canadians during the pandemic. We will continue our approach to being transparent.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself does not understand why the federal government cannot deliver an economic update when the provinces can. Why are the government and the minister defying the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is an independent officer and is requesting an economic update?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "We will continue with our approach, which is one of transparency. We know that it's very difficult to make projections given the very dynamic nature of the situation. We think our approach of providing information daily is appropriate and we will continue to be transparent about our investments.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "That is incredible. When we listen to the minister and the Prime Minister talk, you would think we were in the pesky terrible twos phase that children go through, when they keep saying no, no, no. I find it funny that the provinces are able to table an economic update in a crisis situation. The opposition parties are asking for it, as are experts and officials. When the time comes for the government to listen to the scientists, it has no problem doing so. However, if people do not think like the government, it ignores them. The provinces are doing it, the opposition parties are calling for it and the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. Why will the Minister of Finance not table an economic update so that all members of Parliament can do their verification work?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "I will continue to provide daily information on our measures and investments. Projections are clearly very difficult to make. However, when the situation is more stable, we will be able to provide more information to Canadians. In the meantime, we will be adapting to the situation on a daily basis and making sure that we have the information we need to make our decisions and to make sure that Canadians understand our situation.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 45seconds left.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, one month ago, the Prime Minister announced with great fanfare that the eligibility criteria for the $40,000emergency loans for businesses would be more flexible to help self-employed entrepreneurs and businesses that pay themselves dividends to have access to them. However, as of todayit has been four weeks since that announcementbusinesses are still banging their heads on the doors of their financial institutions. They do not have access to the information because it is not available on official websites. In addition, even senior officials confirmed to me during a technical call on June2, last Tuesday, that this information would not be available for several weeks. Can the Minister of Finance, who says he wants to act quickly to help our businesses, explain why, after four weeks, it is still not possible to get the information the Prime Minister promised us from his doorstep?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have been listening and responding to small businesses and entrepreneurs across the country. In fact, we have even announced the expansion of the program's eligibility criteria to include many owner-managed small businesses with payrolls of less than$20,000. The new criteria have forced financial institutions to adapt to be able to provide this program to new applicants. We are working around the clock to ensure that we are able to promptly provide small businesses across the country with the assistance they need.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance)" }, { "content": "We will now proceed to Mr. Allison.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's unemployment rate stands at 13.7%. That's the highest it's been in almost four decades. Many industries, like travel, hospitality and tourism, are getting crushed. We rely on a lot of hospitality and tourism in my riding of Niagara West. Can the government tell us what their plans are to help the travel, hospitality and tourism industry that so many of my constituents depend on?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison (Niagara West, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his important question. I had a good conversation with the mayor of Niagara Falls recently, and we believe in the importance of the tourism sector. That's exactly why we've extended the wage subsidy until the end of August. There is the CEBA loan, the $40,000 loan. There is also spending through FedDev in my colleague's region. If he has clear, specific projects in the tourism sector that he needs help with, I would ask that he please come and see me and have a conversation.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the message from the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Perrin Beatty, and also other industries, is that we need a clear and coherent plan from this government because there's a whole hodgepodge of regulations and confusion about what's going to happen through the strategy. What I've told the government is that we need a strategy to reflect local conditions that is consistent and has a clear timeline so that businesses can begin to open safely and with confidence. What is the government doing to make this happen?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we absolutely agree. It is important for businesses to have an understanding of the programs that we've put in place. We have been consulting with businesses on the appropriate way to extend the wage subsidy so that we can continue to support businesses as they turn towards a safe restart. We've also looked very carefully at how we can ensure that the programs that we've put forward", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Allison.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has come way short of meeting the Canadian demand for personal protective equipment. Some equipment procured from overseas has been substandard and couldn't be used. Because of the shortage, in my riding of Niagara West, dentists have to pay up to 10 times the amount for an N95 mask. Compared to early March, when will the government finally begin to produce enough PPE in Canada to meet Canadian demand?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. We have mobilized over 700 Canadian companies to help them retool and rescale their efforts to make more personal protective equipment in Canada as part of a made-in-Canada initiative. We're going to continue to work with industry to build up domestic capacity.", "speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)" }, { "content": "Global News is reporting that Canada is struggling to secure a reliable source of PPE. What's the evidence of this? We know that the government procured 10 million substandard N95 masks that couldn't be used. Masks were sent back to suppliers for having flaws. We received mouldy swabs to be used in COVID-19 tests. Planes are arriving empty that should have been filled with PPE, and we received less than 5% of our total order of gloves. It's clear that Canada needs to rely on Canada for PPE. When will this government finally begin to take PPE equipment issues seriously and make enough in Canada to meet demands by Canadians?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the honourable member's questions were tainted with inaccuracies. Regarding the flights that returned from China without federal cargo, Air Canada did reimburse the federal government for that amount. In addition, with regard to the N95 masks that were referenced, the Government of Canada will not pay for masks that it does not use. Furthermore, as my colleague Minister Bains just stated, we are mobilizing and retooling the domestic industry. Over half of the face shields that we have received were produced in Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)" }, { "content": "At a time when the Prime Minister has ordered Canadians to stay home and businesses to remain closed, at a time when Canadians have had to say goodbye to their relatives over Skype, at a time when Canadians are not allowed to get married, at a time when Canadians are being fined for taking their kids to the park, at a time when restaurants are being fined $800 for allowing customers to eat outside and not being socially distanced, in these times, the Prime Minister's son attended a mass gathering with thousands of people while not socially distancing. Mr. Chair, why is it that there seems to be one set of rules in this country for some people but a different set for the Prime Minister? Why the double standard?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as the member knows, this country has been gripped with the need to stand up with one another to fight the experience of racism that so many Canadians live with and that so many of our American cousins live with. As the member knows, local public health sets advice for regions that he specified, and I would encourage all Canadians to check with local public health advice before they resume activities.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)" }, { "content": "Now we'll go to Mr. Chiu.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Many Canadian veterans are noticing that medical providers are increasing their costs. Everything is more expensive these days, including medicine, etc. It can take upwards of a year for Veterans Affairs to adjust their rate scale to compensate, and they do not allow for retroactive reimbursement. What are the government's actions to alleviate this hardship for our men and women who stood guard for this country, our veterans?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu (StevestonRichmond East, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the fact is that when we inherited the government, Veterans Affairs needed a lot of support from government. In fact, at that time, we invested $10 billion to make sure that Veterans Affairs was put in place and that we could provide the appropriate supports for veterans, like the pension for life, the centre of excellence on PTSD and the chronic pain centre of excellence. All of these things are so important. We have to realize that with government previously", "speaker": "Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs)" }, { "content": "We'll now go back to Mr. Chiu.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister, for answeringor respondingto my question, although that really did not provide an answer, in my humble opinion. Part of the side effect of spending hundreds of millions of dollars is inflation. My constituents in StevestonRichmond East are overwhelmingly finding this government's support for seniors inadequate. The opposition has put forward clear proposals, such as a one-time tax-free withdrawal being allowed for an RRSP or a RRIF. So far, the government has not taken any action on this. Why is the government ignoring suggestions to help Canadian seniors?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I want seniors to know that they are not alone. To help preserve their registered retirement income fund assets, we are reducing minimum withdrawals by 25% for 2020. We're also providing direct financial support so that seniors can get the help they need now. As the market is volatile during this time, we continue to look at all ways that we can best help seniors during this difficult time.", "speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Hong Kong government has arrested 9,000 civilians just in the past year. This is equivalent to the arrest of 42,000 people, proportional to Canada's population. It is anticipated that more unjust incarcerations will occur as Beijing imposes the national security law in Hong Kong. Has our government started preparing a list of names for Magnitsky-style sanctions, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as we have said, we and our allies are deeply concerned with Beijing's decision to impose a national security law on Hong Kong. With hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in its stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. The proposed law would also undermine the one country, two systems framework.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport)" }, { "content": "I thank the minister for responding. Again, however, words are not enough. It's time for action, because the Chinese embassy has said, in response to Canada's expressed concern, that they deplore, reject and condemn our response and our concerns thus far. What are the conditions for this government using Magnitsky sanctions should China continue to incarcerate Canadians and jeopardize the human rights of its citizens?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been very clear. We will continue to encourage all parties to engage in peaceful and meaningful dialogue to address the legitimate concerns expressed by the Hong Kong population. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chiu, we have about 22 seconds, so you have time for a very quick question and hopefully a very quick answer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Okay, here's a quick question. The Communist Chinese government has lied about COVID-19. They have issued statements against Canada and they have yet to release the two Canadians being held hostage. My constituents are concerned over this. When will this government listen to Canadians and call for a stronger, more effective and truly independent international investigation into COVID-19's origin?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "The honourable minister has 22 seconds or less, please.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we are dealing with a global pandemic, COVID-19. It is critically important that all countries in the world work together in a transparent, open and respectful manner so that we understand what is going on and how we can bring it to an end as quickly as possible.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "The next question will come from Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, if the government orders someone who has been exposed to a confirmed COVID case into a 14-day quarantine, why won't the government allow them to take an antibody test to lift the quarantine so they can go back to work?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (RenfrewNipissingPembroke, CPC)" }, { "content": "As the member opposite may or may not know, testing strategies are determined by provinces and territories. Furthermore, the testing of a particular person has to be done at the right point in time", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, there have already been some tests that have been approved. My friend and colleague here, Colin Carrie, from the constituency of Oshawa, has a constituent who has a test. It's 90% accurate and it's being sold to the United States and other countries. Why won't they provide a DIN number to it so that Canadians have access to it as well, regardless of which province or territory they live in?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I think the member is talking about two separate things. Any test kit that would be approved by Health Canada would be accessible to wherever that company chose to market that test kit. Furthermore, it's really important that test kits that are approved by Health Canada be accurate and have been tested with rigour with regard to their ability to provide credible and accurate information to the people who are using that test.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the test has proven to have an accuracy rate of 90% in identifying whether or not an individual has antibodies. Why won't she allow it to be used here?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I am happy to follow up with the member opposite's office when she is able to provide me with the name of the company. As you can imagine, there are many vendors trying to", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "How long will it take for an antibody test to be approved by this government once you have the name of the company and the test and the evidence in front of you?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Before we go to the honourable minister, I just want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair and not directly. Go ahead, Minister.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "We have an expedited process that could be completed in as little as five to seven days, depending on the accuracy of the test and the information supplied by the vendor.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, will Health Canada use reputable data from other countries to speed their determinations about antibody effectiveness, or just continue to withhold access?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Canadians expect us, at Health Canada, to ensure the accuracy and the safety of all equipment approved for use in Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chairman, if the minister can approve tests and studies within five days, why is it taking over 30, over 60, or over 90 days to approve an antibody test that exists?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "I appreciate the member opposite's interest in urgent and quick approvals; however, sometimes, depending on the company, there may be further questions and further tests that need to be run to ensure the accuracy or safety of that equipment. Should she wish me to check into the process for a particular", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We will go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Have officials provided the government with a target for a daily antibody test to complete an initial survey or the initial phase of a study?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is talking about the work of the immunity task force, which is, as you know, a group of scientists who have been funded by the Government of Canada", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We'll go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, would the minister please provide the names of the people on the task force to which she just referred?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I will forward those names to the office of the member opposite.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "I hope that will be within the next two days or so, and not wait until after the crisis has passed, Mr. Chairman. Why isn't the Prime Minister showing as much fervour for antibody testing as he is for getting a vaccine on the market?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I reject the premise of that question. In fact, the Prime Minister has shown fervour for all aspects of dealing with the coronavirus from the very inception of the virus on the world stage. To allege otherwise is quite disingenuous.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We'll go on to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "When will the government give the Auditor General the funds she needs to do her job?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC)" }, { "content": "First, Mr. Chair, I would like to offer my congratulations to the new Auditor General for her appointment. On behalf of the government, I would also like to offer her our full support and collaboration", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage)" }, { "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "I share the minister's wish to congratulate the new Auditor General on her position. I will now ask him again when he will give her the funds she needs to do her job.", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, her role is essential to our democracy. We are eager to work with her. She's more than welcome to share her concerns directly with the government. I can assure her that my", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I didn't ask him if he would like to work with the Auditor General. I asked him if he will give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job.", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our government has added 38 permanent staff positions to her office, while the Conservative government, under their leadership, cut the funding for more than 60", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "We'll move on to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, through you, I caution the minister to not mislead this House. If he will look at the committee transcripts of the time, he will know that it was the Auditor General's decision to reduce their own budget. The Conservatives did not cut positions. That is a matter of fact. The point is that the Auditor General now does not have the money to do her job. She has cut performance audits and she has stopped work on performance audits. When will this government give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "With us, it was 38 new positions, Mr. Chair. With them, it was 60 positions fewer.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has drastically expanded its spending and is avoiding accountability in every way it can. The finance committee yesterday, with the support of Liberal backbench MPs who are on that committee, unanimously passed a motion to fund the Auditor General in full so that her office can do her job. If this minister will not listen to me, will he at least listen to his own backbenchers?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our government is fully committed to supporting the important and ongoing work of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament. If the Auditor General identifies the need for additional resources, we will work with the Office of the Auditor General to ensure that they have all the resources they need to continue fulfilling their mandate efficiently and effectively.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Auditor General has consistently, since 2018, told this government that the office doesn't have enough funds. It's not a mystery. The Auditor General has told the public accounts committee that it cannot do its job. It's the first time in history that the Auditor General has had to tell public accounts that they don't have the resources to do their job. It's not a matter of if the Auditor General needs more funds. The Auditor General couldn't be more clear. When will this government actually do the right thing and fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, maybe I'm not making myself clear in English. I will switch to my native tongue, French, in case it becomes clearer. If the Auditor General identifies a need for additional resources, we will work with her to ensure that her office can continue to deliver its mandate efficiently and effectively. In addition, our government worked with the Auditor General to increase funding in 2018-09. With this increase, the office was able to add the equivalent of 38new full-time staff to its team. That's 38more employees", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "The floor goes to Mr.Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this isn't an if situation. The Auditor General has already told this government that her office does not have funds. This has been ongoing since 2018. I would ask the minister to please stop with the platitudes and actually just say yes or no. Will the government give the Auditor General the money that the Auditor General has already asked for?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we have already increased the budget of the Office of the Auditor General in the 2018-19 period.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Before we continue, we're going to suspend for a second to bring in the next chair.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "There's a point of order.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.))" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I know that no member would knowingly mislead the House. No member wants to do that. It's always customary to give members a chance to correct the record, so I call upon the minister to do so now, and perhaps even the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister misled the House in his response to a question. I have here the transcripts of the public accounts committee, and they will confirm that the", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "This is beginning to sound a bit like debate. We will proceed. Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. First, I would like to take this opportunity to say hi from Portugal. I would also like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague and friend, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean. Obrigado. While Quebec estimates its additional health care costs related to COVID-19 at $3billion, Ottawa is transferring around $115million, which is not even4%. Does the government recognize that this is clearly insufficient?", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, we invested an initial $500 million in transfers to the provinces and territories to manage the extreme pressure put on health care systems as a result of their supporting people living with COVID and in preventing COVID. We want to thank the provinces and territories for their work, and as the member opposite knows, we will continue to be there for the provinces and territories. This is a significant transfer, and we think", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, the minister says that this is a substantial transfer. Yes, it is a lot of money. The government is giving about $115million to Quebec, but that is not even 4%of what is being requested. Does the minister recognize that much more is needed?", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie" }, { "content": "We have been working with the provinces and territories from the beginning to respond to the crisis. We have increased health care transfers, provided medical protective equipment and responded to all requests for assistance. We have been able to make so much progress in the fight against COVID-19 precisely because of this co-operation. Stirring up an imaginary quarrel between the federal government and Quebec", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, it isn't about squabbling, it's about needs. The share that the federal government is giving isn't enough. We should act now, before we see a possible second wave. What we're seeing today are the results of massive disinvestment by the federal government in health care. This isn't good enough. The government must act quickly. Can the government commit to better funding to the health care sector and to organizing a meeting with Quebec and the provinces on this exact topic, in September at the latest? We can't afford to wait.", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie" }, { "content": "The hon. minister's response will have to be brief.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, with respect to the transfers to provinces and territories, the member opposite knows that our government, in our last mandate, significantly increased transfers to the provinces and territories for health services, including mental health and home care services. In fact, the funding we're providing is in addition to the $40 billion that was transferred", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. Tudo bem? Tudo bom? Today in La Presse, we learned that the government has extended its military presence in long-term care homes. Can the minister confirm this information, and can he also confirm that the presence of these 500soldiers is indeed in response to a request from the Government of Quebec?", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, let me assure the member that when Quebec made a request for assistance at the beginning of April, we answered the call. When they asked for an extension of that, we said we would continue to provide that assistance. I had a conversation today with Minister Guilbault, my counterpart in Quebec, and we have renewed our commitment to continuing to provide assistance. That assistance can take additional forms and can include involving the Canadian Red Cross, but we remain committed to providing the assistance that Quebec needs.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "If I understand correctly, negotiations are still under way with the Government of Quebec, even though it needs these soldiers. The mission ends Friday. This isn't really the time to negotiate anymore. We have to make sure that the military will stay in our long-term care homes as long as we need their services in Quebec, and until new attendants have been trained. Can the minister confirm that the mission will indeed be extended?", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe" }, { "content": "I'd like to assure this House that we have assured Quebec that the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to provide support until such time as other trained professional people are able to do that job. We're working very hard with the Province of Quebec. We're working with the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross. We will be there for Quebeckers because they need our help, and as long as they need our help, we'll be there to support them.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "This isn't the time to play cat-and-mouse. The only thing we have to do is to give the Government of Quebec what it's asking for. Quebec pays 23%of the army's budget, so Quebeckers are entitled to this support. Quebec has more than 5,000deaths from COVID-19, 90%of which have been in seniors' residences or long-term care homes. The military's presence is vital because they play an extraordinary and essential role. Will the minister commit to extending the mission now and putting an end to this uncertainty? It's certainly bad for both the military and the health care workers, who rely on this support.", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe" }, { "content": "The hon. minister has 10seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Again, Madam Chair, let me be very clear. We have made a commitment to the Province of Quebec that we will continue to provide that support until the middle of September, exactly as they have requested, but we are also working to ensure that we have an sustainable, effective solution to the request that Quebec has made, so we're working with the Province of Quebec, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross to ensure the help that is needed is there.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "We will go now to Bryan May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure and an honour to be with you all today. I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member of Parliament for Scarborough North. Madam Chair, COVID-19 continues to create challenges for all Canadians, including those with disabilities, and exacerbates those experienced by Canadians with disabilities. As we mark the end of National AccessAbility Week, I would like to remind our colleagues that our commitment to making Canada more inclusive and equitable is ongoing, including our passing of the Accessible Canada Act. Would the minister inform the House about the government's plans to support Canadians with disabilities who are experiencing increased costs due to COVID-19?", "speaker": "Mr. Bryan May (Cambridge, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, last week was the first National AccessAbility Week that was legislated under the historic Accessible Canada Act, and I thank every party in this House for the consent they gave to that legislation. I'm hoping we have the same spirit of camaraderie for people with disabilities this afternoon. Since the beginning, Madam Chair, we have taken a disability inclusion approach on how we support people with disabilities in this time of pandemic, including the establishment of our COVID-19 disability advisory group, which has given us invaluable advice. I thank them so much for their contributions to our efforts. Last week we announced a suite of measures to support people with disabilities that complement existing measures that are in place. This includes a one-time payment of $600 to 1.25 million citizens with disabilities, which again is the subject matter of the legislation this afternoon, as well as a $15-million investment in an accessible workplace initiative that will ensure, moving forward.... We know that as we move back into employment situations it will be very tough for people with disabilities. Finally, there are five really exciting accessible technology initiatives, including working on point-of-sale terminals for Canadians who are blind or visually impaired.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)" }, { "content": "You may have a very short question, Mr. May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her department for all the work they are doing to ensure that accessibility is at the forefront of everybody's mind through this crisis.", "speaker": "Mr. Bryan May" }, { "content": "Mr. Chen is next.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as humanity battles COVID-19, we are confronted by the stark realities of another disease. On May 25, George Floyd fell unconscious and died as a police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes. This all happened after the 46-year-old black man was handcuffed and put in a position where he could do no harm. In Canada, we have come a long way since Viola Desmond, yet there is much more to do. Anti-black racism is institutionalized, hidden under dominant narratives of a free and multicultural society. Hatred has no boundaries, whether it is against black communities or is anti-Asian sentiment fuelled by COVID-19. The question always is this: Who is next? We must all stand up together against hatred and for justice and reconciliation, to dismantle systems of oppression that long remained unquestioned. Recent data from Statistics Canada shows that Canada is failing black youth, creating the conditions that push them into the justice system. To the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, my question is this: What is the government doing to address the unique challenges faced by black youth?", "speaker": "Mr. Shaun Chen (Scarborough North, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the member for Scarborough North is absolutely correct. We must all do what we can to stand up against hatred and injustice. We often say that today's youth are not only the leaders of tomorrow but the leaders of today, so we need to equip them for success by investing in youth. According to the 2016 census, black Canadians accounted for 1.2 million people, and more than a quarter of that population is under the age of 15. Socio-economic gaps, such as in employment and education, exist between black and non-black youth. We need to do better. Our government has brought forward youth so they can inform the decisions we make. We have Canada's first youth policy, and it was created by youth for youth to ensure that all young people are equipped to live healthy and fulfilling lives, and are empowered to create positive change for themselves and their communities. Our government launched the community support for black Canadian youth program, which supported 56 projects geared to address the unique challenges faced by black Canadian youth through the development of leadership skills and civic engagement, while empowering them through the promotion of black history, culture and identity. To address the challenges of the pandemic, our government has implemented a suite of measures designed to help youth and students, including with employment and service opportunities. My office is working with community organizations who serve black youth to make sure they too are both aware of and benefiting from these measures.", "speaker": "Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth)" }, { "content": "Ms. Mathyssen is next.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be splitting my time with the member for TimminsJames Bay. Schools in many provinces remain closed, and many child care providers want to reopen. They must reduce their capacity due to COVID-19. Now more than ever we need universal, publicly funded child care to restart the economy. Will the government bring in legislation that would enshrine into law access to, and federal funding for, quality affordable child care?", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (LondonFanshawe, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we are, of course, committed to investments in child care. We have constantly worked with provinces and territories to ensure that we provide the supports they need to provide quality, affordable and accessible child care. Since 2015, we have created over 40,000 child care spaces. We are committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)" }, { "content": "The government doesn't seem to understand that this is not universal child care. During COVID-19, women have lost the majority of jobs, and they have taken on the majority of additional child care responsibilities. Canadian women want and need to return to work, but this government doesn't understand that without affordable child care, they simply cannot re-enter the workforce. For 26 years, Liberal governments have been promising, but failing to deliver, a universal child care program. Parents are paying the price. How much longer do parents have to wait?", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for the important question. Since 2015, we have created 40,000 affordable, accessible, quality child care spaces across the country. We are on track to continue to invest $7.5 billion over 11 years to create additional child care spaces and support provinces and territories. We're constantly in touch with our counterparts to work to strengthen that sector. We are also keeping our promise and our commitment to create an additional 250,000 spaces. We will be there for parents as they get back to work, and we will continue to reinforce the early learning and child care sector.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen" }, { "content": "You have time for a very short question, Ms. Mathyssen.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Without universal child care, we are crippling our economy. We are not providing an affordable system, and this stops women from returning to work. Instead of helping parents return to work, the government is now bringing forward legislation that's penalizing them. Why is the government looking to sentence mothers and fathers to jail time and large fines when they cannot find the child care that", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen" }, { "content": "The honourable minister has time for a short answer.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We are committed to the early learning and child care sector. We will move forward with the creation of an early learning and child care secretariat. We will continue to invest in this sector. We recognize its importance.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen" }, { "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Angus.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an honour to be here, and I'm hoping that you and your family stay safe at this time. COVID has shaken up Canada's middle class, so my question is for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity. This morning I spoke with a businesswoman. She runs her own business, a travel agency, but because of COVID she has been wiped out. She's on CERB, and it's ticking down. There's no work to go back to, so in four weeks she hits the economic wall. Will the minister fight for an extension of CERB so this woman can stay in the middle class?", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we know how worried Canadians are as they see their final four-week period of the CERB approaching, and we're working very hard to ensure that the CERB continues to serve an important purpose as we move into economic recovery. I'll note that when we created the CERB, there was a different purpose in mind. We were asking people to stay home. Now we're asking people to go back to work if it's safe for them to do so. We're going to make sure that the wage subsidy and the CERB complement each other. In fact, the measures in today's legislation will help us to get the flexibility to be able to do just that.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We did give you a little more time. We will go to Mr. Angus.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. What I've seen with their legislation today is that they're talking about jailing people. We need a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity in a time of middle-class disparity, and she has talked about middle-class criminality. Let's talk about this again, about people going back to work. I spoke with a 51-year-old bartender. He's a professional; this is his job. There is no job to go back to. Will the minister assure us that this man will be able to stay in the middle class because the CERB will still be there in July, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus" }, { "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we've been helping Canadians by putting programs in place. We will continue to support families during the crisis, and afterwards as well.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier" }, { "content": "Mr. Angus, you have time for a very short comment or question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "The issue here is that when COVID hit, millions of Canadians were living in such precarious working conditions that they didn't even have enough money to pay their rent. That is a damning indictment. In four weeks, those Canadians are going to hit the economic wall again. What I need to know from the minister, and what Canadians need to know, is whether she will commit, yes or no, that the CERB will be there for those who have no work to go back to.", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have been helping families with a supplement to the Canada child benefit. We have put in place the Canada emergency response benefit. We will continue to find ways to support Canadian families during this crisis.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cooper.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It was all the way back on March 25 that the Minister of Finance stated that help for the energy sector was coming within hours, possibly days. Well, as it turns out, it hasn't been hours. It hasn't been days. It hasn't even been weeks. Indeed, months later, help has yet to arrive. Seventy-seven days after the minister made that statement, not a single energy company has received financing under EDC, the BDC, or the LEEFF program. As the energy sector faces an unprecedented liquidity crisis, how can this government possibly justify such a delay?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper (St. AlbertEdmonton, CPC)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, weeks ago we opened applications through the business credit availability program to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We've also opened applications for measures that will be available to our larger players through our LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry. We will continue to support workers, and we will continue to do so to get through this unprecedented challenge.", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, on June 2, the vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers said, The entire industry is frustrated with the delay that we are facing. The Saskatchewan Minister of Energy and Resources has spoken about a gaping hole that exists in terms of support for the energy sector. The gaping hole that I'm speaking of is the EDC and BDC programs that this government has failed to deliver upon. Indeed, it was on April 17 that those programs were announced, and 54 days later, not only has not a single energy company received financing, but guess what? They can't even apply, and the eligibility criteria have yet to be finalized after 54 days. If that is not failing to deliver for the energy sector, what is?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Business Council of Alberta has said that the LEEFF program is a positive development showing that the federal government recognizes the needs and value of Canada's large corporations. We agree. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through two crises: the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war initiated by Russia and Saudi Arabia. That's why, weeks ago, we opened applications for liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We also announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry to make sure these programs are effective.", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, contrary to the representations of the minister, neither the EDC program nor BDC programs are accepting applications. Just yesterday officials from both BDC and EDC were before the finance committee, where I posed precisely those questions to them. We know, Madam Chair, that the application process isn't up and running and that eligibility criteria remain to be determined, but I guess this government has some good news for the energy sector after 77 days. Now energy sector companies can go on the BDC website and apply for email updates. Is that the kind of help the Minister of Finance had in mind after 77 days: email updates instead of real relief for the energy sector?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Alberta finance minister, Travis Toews, said in a LEEFF announcement that in combination with earlier measures for small and medium-sized companies, it represented an expression of confidence in our industries. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through these two crisesas I said, the impact of COVID, and then on top of that, the effect of a global price war. We opened up applications for liquidity measures as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers asked. Their top five asks were all liquidity. We supported small and medium-sized players essential to the supply chain, who make up 85% of the jobs in that sector, and then we announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry and", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan" }, { "content": "I now have to interrupt for a few moments to allow our technicians to change places. With that done, Monsieur Martel, you may now go ahead..", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, there has recently been positive progress in AndrGauthier's case, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Prime Minister for their co-operation in this matter. However, Mr.Gauthier is currently on his own in the United Arab Emirates, without a passport, waiting to settle civil lawsuits. What services does the minister intend to provide to help him, and when does he plan to repatriate AndrGauthier to Canada?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, in all cases similar to Mr.Gauthier's, the Government of Canada, through its consular services, tries to do the best it can under the circumstances. This file is still active.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "The House recognized on February18, 2020, that the 15weeks of sickness benefits provided by employment insurance were insufficient. Citizens who became ill before March15 are now without help. They are being denied the CERB because they didn't lose their jobs because of COVID-19. They are being denied EI regular benefits because they are unable to work. In addition, some citizens are waiting for surgery, which is being delayed because of COVID-19. Is the government letting these people down?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "No, MadamChair, that's absolutely not the case. Of course, we understand that people who are no longer receiving EI benefits should have access to the CERB. We have committed to extending the emergency sickness benefit to 26weeks. We're working with everyone here to make that happen. We're taking into account the needs and circumstances of all citizens in our efforts to help Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "I've called on the Minister of Economic Development several times to be more flexible in establishing these programs, so that they are better adapted to the realities of the regions. Recently, it was the SMEs in Montreal that were monopolizing the funds earmarked for the regions. When will the Liberal government listen to the needs of regions like SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "I thank my colleague for the opportunity to announce the good news that was mentioned on Radio-Canada this morning, namely, $71million more for the regions of Quebec. Of course, we're here for the regions. I will be happy to work with my colleague to ensure that the CFDC in his region can support businesses. We have to support businesses in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean and across the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "I think that's a canned speech. According to a survey conducted by the Universit de Trois-Rivires in Quebec, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is apparently the most economically affected by COVID-19. We have many projects, but they depend on the government's leadership to be carried out. Our region has forestry, the aluminum sector, GNL Qubec, tourism, the Port of Saguenay, Davie Canada, a military base and a tax centre. It's all here. We know we'll have to get the economy moving again soon. When will the government act to help our region?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "Every day, we act to help my colleague's region. I've had good conversations with Promotion Saguenay. I've also spoken several times with various stakeholders in my colleague's beautiful region. We will always be there for them. I'd like to tell my colleague that there will be other announcements to support the economic development of the beautiful region of SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. I will be happy to work with him to achieve good results.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Sustainable forestry development is at the heart of the economic development of Canada and for SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. Canadians have reason to be proud of the use of the boreal forest in the fight against climate change. Currently, our innovative forest industry is experiencing many problems, and on top of that, there is the COVID-19 crisis. Who will defend our forestry workers?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "Of course, we believe in the importance of regional economic development. That's why we're always there to defend our forestry workers. I will also be pleased to work with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is very familiar with the matter and who knows the challenges faced by the various businesses in the forestry sector, as well as the employees. We will always be there to support employees and create more jobs across Quebec and the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota is next. Go ahead, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. We continue to see significant gaps in the Liberals' programs. There are still people who are falling through the cracks and being left behind. We are hearing from women who are pregnant or who have just given birth and are being left out or told to go back to work. When will this government stop letting Canadians down?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC)" }, { "content": "We know that there are many situations of Canadians who are about to or are just going on maternity or parental benefits who might not have access to their EI benefits due to not having accumulated enough time for COVID reasons. We're working very hard to make sure, as we did for fish harvesters, that we support all Canadians in these situations. I look forward to advising Canadians of our approach on this very soon.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, that simply isn't good enough. This is something that has been brought to the government's attention for months now, and still nothing has been done. These families deserve answers now. Had the government conducted a GBA+ analysis, they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women. Why wasn't a GBA+ conducted?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls. We are working hard to ensure that everyone has the supports they need. As we move forward, we are, as I said earlier, taking into consideration improvements to the EI system, the wage subsidy and the future of CERB. All these play together as we work to provide a comprehensive forward-looking support package for Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA+? Why was it not done?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB. I can tell you that women are benefiting significantly from this benefit.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, it is a simple question, and I will ask again. Why was GBA+ analysis not conducted for the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way, from the beginning, as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, if that's the case, then how did you miss these gaps?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we didn't miss gaps. We, from the beginning, looked to support as many people as possible. As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors, and today to supporting people with disabilities, we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures. As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery, of course we're going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the minister needs to take the responsibility here. These women and families deserve answers. This is a real problem happening right now. You said you would conduct GBA+ analysis on all policy measures moving forward. Where is the assistance for these expectant mothers?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I take responsibility. I'm very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures, how many women received the GST credit, how many women who lead families received the CCB one-time payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have all-party consent today.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota, may I remind you to please direct your questions through the chair?", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I will ask again, hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "My goodness, Madam Chair. I'll say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls, and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase, how completely we make women at the core of every decision.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota, you have 15 seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, my question is still not answered. She keeps repeating the same answer. I'll keep asking the same question, hoping for a straightforward answer. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Honourable minister, you have five seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we've taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning, and we'll continue to do so.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We go now to Mr. Carrie.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 I asked Minister Blair why Lisa Freeman, a constituent of mine, wasn't able to participate in the Parole Board hearing of her father's murderer. The minister acknowledged that this had been a mistake and that victims would now be able to attend by telephone and video conference. Can the minister tell this House how many parole hearings have been conducted under this digital format with victims since April 29?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank my honourable colleague for the question. I'm glad to hear that Minister Blair was able to provide information on the specific case he raises. With regard to his question, we're happy to provide it to him in due course.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship)" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 the minister said, and I quote, Steps have been taken to make it possible for victims to participate in those parole hearings virtually by phone or video conference. If the change has been made, can the minister please tell us how many hearings victims have been able to participate in by video conference?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, certainly we will confirm the number of hearings that may have occurred. With regard to the hearings under the Parole Board of Canada, we want to ensure that victims and others are able to participate in a fair and transparent manner.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, the website says, To protect the health and safety of the public, offenders, Parole Board...members and staff in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the PBC is currently conducting its hearings remotely via video conference or teleconference. However, when referring to victim participation, the PBC says it has Implemented technological and procedural enhancements in order to provide victims...the ability to participate...via telephone. If video conference is an option for staff and inmates, why is it not for victims?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, it is very important that all parties be able to participate before the Parole Board. The Parole Board has introduced technologies to allow victims to participate in a manner that is fair and that accords them the opportunity to express themselves.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the minister is missing the point. For victims, besides the criminal trial, the Parole Board hearings are the only chance to participate in the judicial process. Why are victims not permitted on the video conference, while staff, panels and inmates are?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said now on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in the hearings before the Parole Board. This is as a result of technology and innovations introduced by the Parole Board. Of course, those opportunities will continue to exist going forward.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Then, Madam Chair, why did the minister and this government tell Canadians and the House that victims of crime have the opportunity to participate in parole hearings by video conference, when in fact they do not?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said, of course we are going to confirm the status of that particular request. In the meantime, as I've said on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in these hearings. This is consistent with the fairness of those hearings and the due process we accord to them.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, it's been over a month. When will the minister finally give victims of crime the same right to parole hearings by video conference as he gives convicted inmates?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I reject that proposition. The Parole Board is a well-established tribunal that does allow for all parties, including victims, to participate in a manner that is fair, and that allows them to express themselves so those representations can be taken into account in the decisions of the Parole Board of Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "He can reject it as much as he wants, Madam Chair, but it seems he thinks it's fair that inmates have that right, but victims don't. We'll follow up with him on that. Brandon Hottot owns and operates a contracting business in my riding, and his company needs help. On May 19, the Prime Minister announced the government would allow sole proprietors and gig contractors to qualify for the Canada emergency business account; however, Brandon has still not been able to take advantage of this benefit. When can small business owners like Brandon expect this change to finally be made? It's been over three weeks, and the clock is ticking.", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, from the very beginning, we have been working hard to support our small businesses. Over 660,000 businesses today have received access to small business loans. I want to assure my colleague that additional support will be there within about a week.", "speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade)" }, { "content": "Mr. Carrie, you may have a very short question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Okay, Madam Chair. Shawn and Denise operate a gymnastics facility in Whitby and have been forced to close throughout COVID-19. As the economy begins to open, they are concerned about not having the money to pay their employees in the short term, especially at a reduced client capacity. Is the government extending the wage subsidy to small businesses that have been closed and are just beginning to open now?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "The wage subsidy has been extended until August 31. We hope businesses like that one will be able to take advantage of the wage subsidy to keep their employees on staff.", "speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng" }, { "content": "We will go now to Ms. May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to put it on the record, because we may or may not be debating it, the draft embargoed bill that we've seen is unacceptable to members of the Green Party caucus. My questions will relate largely to those sections that are troublesome. I'll start with a question to the honourable minister for disabilities. I certainly appreciate her work and I know her intentions are the best, but part 3 of this bill allows for the information to be shared so people can get a one-time payment of $600, which is not enough to really deal with the COVID crisis for people with disabilities. It's clearand I thank the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party for making this point clearly in question periodit will reach approximately 40% of people with disabilities because of the structure of going through the disability tax credit. To the honourable minister, are other measures under consideration to reach the rest of the people in Canada with disabilities who need help?", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the disability support payment we are proposing and that we hope to get through the House today complements a whole suite of measures our government has put in place that people with disabilities have access to. We know that people with disabilities who were precariously employed are now taking advantage of the CERB. Students with disabilities get the student benefit, including a $750-per-month top-up for four months. Families with children with disabilities are getting the CCB payment. Disproportionately, people with disabilities are benefiting from the GST payment. I should talk about the provincial letters that are being delivered to recipients of provincial disability supports. All around, Madam Chair, we're trying to get to every citizen with a disability, and this measure fills an important gap.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Much worse than part 3, from our point of view, is the treatment of people who are at this point potentially to be jailed for refusing to return to work when it's considered reasonable and they are recipients of CERB. I wonder about the reasonableness here. It's a subjective test. This is a wrong-headed approach to go after people and threaten them. The retroactive section has already made the Canadian Civil Liberties Association question its constitutionality. To the minister, what's reasonable, and in whose eyes is it reasonable? In today's news, Hamilton's chief medical officer says there is a spike in cases among young people, who likely were exposed while taking public transit to get to work. Their commute wasn't safe. Who determines reasonableness in deciding it's not safe to go back to work?", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as with the current CERB, moving forward it tries to encompass the situations of people who are unemployed, people who can't work because of child care responsibilities, people who are ill or sick. Moving to a broad term of reasonableness allows us to look at the individual circumstances of the person. If we stuck to language like suitable or appropriate, that would qualify the job. We're trying to look at the person and their particular circumstances as we work to ensure that if someone is immunocompromised and can't take transit to their job, then it's reasonable for them not to take that job. That's the exact example we're trying to encompass with broad reasonableness criteria.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "The approach is so very flawed, Madam Chair, in that it attempts to punish people as opposed to encouraging them. I think the Liberals have been overly influenced by the Conservative Party's cries that there's vast fraud, that Canadians are cheating. The reality is that if you want to create an incentive to go back to work, you don't threaten people. What you do is create a sliding scale. You let people continue to receive CERB, but maybe less as they begin to earn more, so that you have a transition on a sliding scale to go into the wage subsidy or into CERB. I ask the honourable minister this: How can it be considered fair to say that someone isn't eligible, even though they believed they were? The language in this bill, particularly at proposed paragraph 12.1 in the penalties section, is an unreasonable determination that someone has violated the act and is subject to jail time and heavy fines.", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, because of parliamentary privilege, I can't and won't speak to specific acts of a piece of law that hasn't actually been introduced in the House, but I'll tell you that what we're trying to do is enhance our integrity measures. We're working with those people who made an honest mistake, those who took advantage of returning to work when they were still receiving the CERB. We're working with those people. We're absolutely confident that those people will find a path forward. We want to deal with intentional fraudsters, people who are criminally taking advantage of seniors. Members of this House have brought fact patterns to my attention and have said, Please deal with these. This is exactly what we're trying to deal with, Madam Chair.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from EsquimaltSaanichSooke. Tourism is a critical part of the economy throughout my riding, and after struggling with years of forest fires and floods, tourism was set to have a record-breaking year in 2020, but the COVID epidemic has burned tourism to the ground, in the words of a local leader. Thousands of jobs have evaporated. Over half of the tourism businesses in the region are facing imminent insolvency. Many of them are small seasonal operations that don't qualify for any of the government's COVID support programs. While funding for ad campaigns is appreciated, these businesses need direct support and they need certainty about that support. Can the finance minister pledge now to provide direct and timely support to tourism businesses in my riding?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings" }, { "content": "Thank you to my colleague for his important question. I agree with him. The tourism sector has been deeply impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis. Yes, we were looking forward to another record-breaking year in 2020, but unfortunately the pandemic happened, and therefore many businesses were impacted. That's why, as a government, we're there to help with the wage subsidy, which has been extended until the end of August, as the tourism sector has been asking us to do; with the CEBA loans, the $40,000 loans, which also include a subsidy; and with the commercial rent relief. That said, we know the tourism sector also sometimes falls through the cracks. That's why we wanted to have a backstop. We came up with funding through the regional development agencies. In my colleague's riding, it's Western Economic Diversification. Some businesses have applied and have received funding. If there are more that need help, please come and see me. I would love to be there to help your community, help tourism", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "A big part of tourism in my riding is the wine sector. One thing that has allowed the wine industry to grow so dramatically in the past few decades is the excise tax exemption. That exemption could likely end very soon if it is found to be non-compliant with our trade agreements. The industry has proposed a trade-legal replacement, the wine growers' value-added program. The finance minister has known about this situation for months. Can he assure this House and the industry that the government will act immediately to implement this program?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We continue to work on this issue. We recognize how important the wine industry is in B.C., and I assure the honourable member that I will come back to him and give him an update.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Garrison.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, this is National Blood Donor Week in Canada. While blood and plasma donations are always important, during this pandemic they're critical. There's a simple and effective way to increase the blood supply: End the gay blood ban. More than 17 other countries have no deferral because they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than identity-based exclusions. The Liberals must agree, because they promised this in two election campaigns. Will the Minister of Health do more than repeat those same promises today and instead take action to get this unscientific and discriminatory gay blood ban lifted?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison (EsquimaltSaanichSooke, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I'm glad to be able to answer this very important question. We indeed want to fight against discrimination. We feel this particularly strongly in the context of the last few days and the last few weeks. We are also mindful of the important contribution of scientists and other experts in this area. We look forward to working with all members in this House in making progress on that issue.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board)" }, { "content": "The government knows I've been calling on friends, family and allies of the gay community to donate blood this week in the place of those of us who cannot. Not only do we need routine blood donations, but to do the research we need on possible prevention and treatment of COVID-19, we urgently need plasma donations from those who have recovered. This ban means that plasma donations are being rejected for no good scientific reason. Again, when will the Minister of Health act to get this ban lifted?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I think the member used the right key words in referring to science and more prevention work to make sure that everyone lives in dignity and safety. Although there has been progress in the last few months and years on this important issue, there is more work to be done.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos" }, { "content": "Six years ago this week, I tabled a motion in the House that called for an end to this homophobic and transphobic ban on blood donations from gay men, men who have sex with men and trans women. That was five ministers of health ago. At the time, I was told certain things had to happen before the ban could be lifted. These were all due to be completed earlier this year, before the COVID crisis. Since we appear to have cross-party support for my new motion, M-41, that I put on the notice paper this week, would the minister and the government agree to support a unanimous consent motion to proceed with M-41 immediately?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a short answer, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Homophobia and transphobia are examples of discrimination and absolutely important things not only to recognize but to fight against. That's why we are pleased to have voices such as the member of Parliament's voice to make sure that we make progress in making sure that everyone in Canada lives in safety and in dignity.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchette-Joncas.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I will share my time with the honourable member for LongueuilSaint-Hubert. As Quebec starts to gradually emerge from the general lockdown, the outlook for the recovery of the tourism industry remains bleak. The economy of several regions of Quebec depends on tourism to ensure stability and balance, which will be beneficial in the coming months. Is the Minister of Finance prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit beyond 16weeks to ensure a living wage for tourism workers?", "speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, as I said in English, we're working very hard to continue to be there for all Canadians, whether it's through the CERB or the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Please excuse me, I'm very tired. I'll continue in English. We're going to have news on this very soon, Madam Chair, but the point is that we want to make sure that all of these programs work well together, whether it's the wage subsidy or the CERB. We want to make sure that we incentivize work, but we still continue to be there for Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We read that the government wants to gradually replace the Canada emergency response benefit by using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. That's all well and good, but seasonal industries aren't entitled to it under the current criteria. If the minister is aware of the importance of the tourism industry in the economic cycle of our regions, he must commit to helping workers. If the clientele isn't there, the industry will simply no longer exist. We still need the Canada emergency response benefit. We simply need to make it an employment incentive so as not to hurt people who are lucky enough to be able to go back to work. The question is simple: will the government commit to renewing it?", "speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we are working hard to make sure we continue to support Canadians as we transition through economic recovery. We want to make sure that we support Canadians, but of course we don't want to disincentivize work. The CERB was created for a different purpose. We asked people to stay home to be safe and to self-isolate if they had symptoms. We want to make sure that as we ask people to go back to work, we don't disincentivize work, but the reality is that there won't be jobs there for everyone, and we need to continue to support everyone.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Mr.Trudel, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I join my colleague in extending my good wishes to you on Portugal's national day. Apart from the fact that it is probably the most beautiful riding in Quebec, the riding of LongueuilSaint-Hubert has surely been one of the hardest hit by the pandemic, both in terms of health and the economy. There are industries here, but also many service businesses, including bars, restaurants and theatres. But we aren't close to being able to go back and see a show by WajdiMouawad or FredPellerin, and that's a shame. We must work to calm the anxiety of these people. The arts sector was the first to stop its activities and will be the last to resume them. There is a lot of anxiety. The CERB ends on July4. Will the government extend the CERB, with an employment incentive?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I thank my colleague for his question and all the work he's doing in arts and culture. From the outset, we've been there to support our artists and arts organizations. We introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, for example, but also the emergency wage subsidy, which we made available to non-governmental organizations. To ensure that people who receive royalties aren't penalized under the Canada emergency response benefit, we have adapted it. We announced a $500million fund to specifically help the arts and culture sector. In fact, we understand very well that this sector has been severely affected by the current crisis. We've been there for our artists and artisans, and we will continue to be.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Perfect. Instead of giving a long preamble, I'll ask a very simple question: will the CERB be extended on July5?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel" }, { "content": "The hon. minister has the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member opposite that in July we will be there for Canadian workers.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "In my riding, a nice little restaurant called Crpe Caf on St-Charles Street in Longueuil has just closed its doors. It's final; it won't reopen. Another restaurant owner told me that he was going to reopen his restaurant, but he didn't know at what capacity. Would it be at 15%, 30%, 40%? No one knows. The speed at which the economy will recover is the big unknown. How many hours a week will it be able to offer its employees? Will it be 12hours, 15hours, 22hours? Will employees even want to return to work to put in 12hours a week? If the CERB isn't adjusted, nothing will happen. Will the government commit to extending the CERB and providing an employment incentive to get the economy moving again at full speed?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I know, of course, that the restaurant sector has been much affected. I have a great deal of empathy for what entrepreneurs and my colleague are going through in his riding. That's why we are currently helping our SMEs. We have money for economic development. The money is available through Canada Economic Development, or CED. If my colleague wants to work with me to provide support to restaurant owners and other restaurants in Longueuil, I'd be very happy to do so.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Bragdon.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, last month, on May 5, I asked the government how it plans to support the agriculture sector. The Liberals announced a $50-million food surplus purchase program as part of the agricultural aid package. Now, one month later, our farmers, who provide the food we need, are still waiting on funds to be delivered. The New Brunswick potato industry is sitting on a massive amount of last year's crop that, because of the pandemic, has no buyers. When will the Prime Minister and the government step up and deliver the support our farmers so desperately need?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, without question we want to continue to support farmers. My colleague Minister Bibeau has introduced hundreds of millions of dollars for farmers. In addition to that, we have provided relief and support for migrant workers, who are ensuring that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, when support for the agriculture sector was announced on May 4, our agriculture sector had been sounding the alarm for weeks that they needed help to continue to meet Canadians' food needs. It has been over a month since that announcement, and our farmers are still waiting for help. It is worth noting, Madam Chair, that vegetables like the potatoes in New Brunswick that I previously mentioned are perishable products. Our farmers do not have the luxury of time. Again, will the Prime Minister and this government make agriculture a priority and provide them with the support they desperately need right now?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, obviously we believe in the importance of our regions and our rural communities, and that's why we've always made sure that agriculture was at the core of many of the decisions throughout this pandemic. That's why our colleague Minister Bibeau, who is the Minister of Agriculture, has been there providing the right liquidity and the right support through this pandemic. Of course we want to make sure that we continue to partner with provinces and territories, because we need their help in this context to make sure that all together we show strong economic support for our farmers, who are going through tough times.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "On May 1 the Liberals introduced a sweeping firearms ban through an order in council that outlawed 1,500 firearms. Recent reports show that since then, more and more firearms are quietly being added to the list of banned firearms, including many common hunting rifles and shotguns. Madam Chair, our hunters, outfitters, dealers and sport shooters are some of the most vetted members of our society. Why does the Prime Minister insist on making criminals out of law-abiding firearms owners instead of dealing with the criminals we already have?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I am very proud of this government's record when it comes to ensuring that we take out of our communities those guns that have one objective only, and that is to kill other people. We will always stand by that record, and we will continue to take the necessary steps to keep our communities safe.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Liberals have said that to compensate firearms owners, they will implement a national buyback program. Instead of targeting law-abiding firearms owners and their legally purchased private property, wouldn't the estimated quarter of a billion dollars needed to buy back these firearms be better utilized right now in supporting our agricultural sector, the very people who grow our food and literally keep our land?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, of course we look forward to saying more about that, but of course we remain committed to taking those guns that have only one objective, and that is to kill people. The legislation we have introduced and the measures we have taken are designed to keep our communities safe, and of course we will do that. We will also continue to support farmers, introducing hundreds of millions of dollars in support because we know they are providing Canadians with affordable food.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Mr. Bragdon, you have time for a short question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, many sole proprietors have been hit extremely hard by this pandemic. My office has heard from many who have been in business for nearly 30 years and have submitted hundreds of HST returns, yet still cannot access the CEBA funding because they do not have a business chequing account, as a lot of small business owners use their personal chequing accounts to do their business. The Liberals offered aid to sole proprietors but attached unnecessary hurdles that prevent many of them from accessing the funds they desperately need to keep their businesses afloat. When will these unnecessary hurdles be removed so businesses can start to receive the relief they so desperately need?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "We will have a very short answer from the honourable minister.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We believe in the importance of making sure we're supporting our businesses, including sole proprietors. That is why our colleague, Minister Ng, the minister for small business, has been working on this and will continue to make sure we take the appropriate steps to recognize that. Meanwhile, people can definitely come to the regional development agencies if they don't have access to funding through banks, and that's a good way to make sure there is a backstop.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Please note that, pursuant to the Standing Order made on April20 and May26, the House has been recalled. Therefore, the committee will adjourn, and the House will begin sitting at 2:30p.m. The bells will be rung to call members, and a parade will begin the sitting. The meeting is adjourned.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" } ]

[ { "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 20thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. As a reminder to all members, in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not be connected to the video conference. I want to remind those who are participating by video conference that, when they talk, they must use the channel that corresponds to the language they are speaking in. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. We are moving on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on. We will now move on to document submissions. The honourable minister, Mr. Blair.", "speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2019 annual report on the RCMPs use of the law enforcement justification provisions. This report addresses the RCMP's use of specified provisions within the law enforcement justification regime, which is set out in subsections 25 to 25 of the Criminal Code. This report also documents the nature of the investigations in which these provisions were used.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)" }, { "content": "On tabling of documents, we have Minister Sajjan.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 32, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2018-19 progress report on Canada's national action plan for the implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security.", "speaker": "Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence)" }, { "content": "Now we'll go to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of a special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Members who are participating in the meeting in person are kindly asked to bring the signed certificate to the office once the petition has been presented. Presenting petitions, Ms. May.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to present two petitions. They both pertain to the protection of our natural world. One is an e-petition, and it relates to the threat to pollinators globally. We know that honey bees and other pollinators are essential to food production. The petitioners note that research from around the world points to a threat to pollinators, particularly from a class of pesticides known as neonicotinoids. The European Union has taken action on this. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to practise a precautionary principle and remove from use neonicotinoids in Canada to protect our pollinators. The second petition relates to the ongoing threat to the southern resident killer whales. These iconic whales are much beloved in SaanichGulf Islands, throughout coastal British Columbia and indeed across Canada. The petitioners are calling for more action to be taken as the population of southern resident killer whales continues to decline, more action for boat-free safety zones, more prohibitions around whale tourism to make sure that the whales are safe from those who are keen to watch them from too close a distance, and more of a credible enforcement regime to support these measures to keep the southern resident killer whale population in our waters and not on the list of species that have become extinct.", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Genuis.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, for over 10 years, members of Parliament from various parties have been trying to pass legislation to deal with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. Irwin Cotler, Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Senator Salma Ataullahjan and I have all proposed bills on this. The petitioners want the House to support Bill S-204. This is another bill that would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. I'm sure petitioners would want me to add that, given the urgency of this issue, perhaps the government could consider bringing forward a government bill on this issue, which would allow the process to move much faster.", "speaker": "Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise here today to present a petition from Canadian citizens in support of motion M-1, which was placed in this House by my colleague the member for New WestminsterBurnaby on the green new deal. These citizens point out that climate change has escalated into a global climate emergency and that Canada must act with ambition and urgency. They call on the government to support M-1, a made in Canada green new deal, to take bold and rapid action to adopt socially equitable climate action to tackle the climate emergency and address worsening socio-economic and racial inequalities at the same time while ending fossil fuel subsidies, closing offshore tax havens, and supporting workers impacted by the transition by creating well-paying, unionized jobs in the shift to a clean and renewable energy economy.", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Johns.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and privilege to table e-petition 2577, which was sponsored by Chris Alemany from Port Alberni and is supported by 5,183 petitioners. They're calling on the Government of Canada to work urgently across party lines and in partnership with provincial and territorial governments to implement a guaranteed, consistent, national and livable universal basic income system for all Canadians. The petition is very timely, coming almost one year to the day since the completion of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which also called on the government to establish a guaranteed annual livable income for all Canadians. Whether it's about providing a safety net to get through a global pandemic, the means to keep your children out of poverty at any time, or simply being able to afford safe housing or transportation, it's time for Canada to have this conversation.", "speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Manly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and a privilege to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of NanaimoLadysmith. People are concerned about gas fracking and the use of methane and the destruction that methane causes to our atmosphere and with climate change. They're calling on the government to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on the Wet'suwet'en territory, and by ordering the RCMP to dismantle their exclusion zone and to stand down. They also call on the government to schedule nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentswhich is something that we're happy to see has been happening and I commend the government for that effortand to prioritize the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.", "speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)" }, { "content": "Next is Mr. Lamoureux.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, like Canada, Guyana is part of the Commonwealth, and many constituents of Winnipeg North have raised the issue with regard to the presidential election back in March, when it was being called into question. There have been some very positive indications in recent days, but the petitioners are asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to be aware of what's taking place in Guyana, and as much as possible, to be advocates for democracy and make sure that we're being diligent in supporting what the people of Guyana want to see.", "speaker": "Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.)" }, { "content": "I just want to remind the honourable members, when presenting petitions, to be as concise as possible. I notice they're starting to stretch a bit and it's something we all tend to do. Now we'll go to Statements by Members. The first statement will be from Mr. Lefebvre.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID-19. I am proud of all my constituents, and all Canadians, including first responders, volunteers, health care and essential workers, local miners, the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families, and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff. I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks; Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer; Nobel Prize winner SNOLAB's work on ventilators, which earned a federal contract; Vale Canada's $1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID-19 health solutions; and many more. We are all in the same boat, but we will get out of it together.", "speaker": "Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Sudbury, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Dalton.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Pitt Meadows is one of Canada's most beautiful communities. It's tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain. Most of the area consists of farmland, golf courses, parks and conservation areas. It also has Pitt Lake, which is among the largest freshwater tidal lakes in the world. Pitt Meadows' history dates back thousands of years with Katzie First Nation. In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for today's bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries. It's hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nation's busiest general aviation airports. Last weekend the community came together to celebrate Pitt Meadows Day a little differently because of COVID. In a great show of community spirit, from their front yards and balconies, thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city. I am thankful to have raised my family here, taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community.", "speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Kelloway.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times. Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been, it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through. Whether it is someone like Glen Muise, who delivers iPads to seniors' homes so they can connect with loved ones, teachers who deliver meals to students in need, Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas, two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast, or Rose Fitzgerald, who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county, constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need. Mr. Chair, as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso. The people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia care deeply about one another. They know that as a community, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable people, and I cannot help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding. Thanks so much.", "speaker": "Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape BretonCanso, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Ms. Brub, go ahead.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash, whose commitment I commend, to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec. The Bloc is open to the idea, but we shouldn't wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action. There are already potential solutions for taking action. Commissions have been issuing reports for decades, and Ottawa has been tabling them. Last year alone, the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations. The federal government must work with indigenous peoples, Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces. Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP. Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures. Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the long-overdue reconciliation. Let's take action.", "speaker": "Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ)" }, { "content": "I give the floor to Mr.MacKinnon.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues, I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020. We know that, owing to the pandemic, graduation celebrations will be different this year, as students will be deprived of their prom, their graduation ceremony and, in some cases, their goodbyes to friends and teachers. I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant, LeCarrefour, Nicolas-Gatineau, de l'rablire, Collge Saint-Alexandre, Collge Nouvelles Frontires, Collge Saint-Joseph, Philemon-Wright and other regional schools, are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis. However, that takes nothing away from their accomplishment. So when they receive their diploma, here is what I will say to them: Surge ahead! The future belongs to you. Be ambitious, follow your dreams and, most importantly, continue to change the Outaouais and the world! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time.", "speaker": "Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Morantz.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre, which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg. This state-of-the-art addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott, Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce, who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011. The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community. I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council. The addictions crisis in Canada needs action. With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions, we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction. I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality. Addictions affect us all, and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution.", "speaker": "Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Jowhari.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill. Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty. I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services. I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which, upon receiving these donations, redoubled their efforts to serve their communities. Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation Long-Term Care Centre, Divine Favour Senior Homecare, the Community & Home Assistance to Seniors, the True Compassion Home Health centre, Blue Door, the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program, Yellow Brick House, Hill House Hospice, Community Living York South, and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill. The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament.", "speaker": "Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Madam Lalonde.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Usually, at this time of the year, I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans. However, we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year. I cannot express enough how, in these exceptional times, I have witnessed the strength, resilience and community spirit of our graduates. I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class. Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school, the cole secondaire catholique Batrice-Desloges, had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success. As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future. We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them. We will not fail. I thank the teachers, the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work. Congratulations to all graduates of 2020.", "speaker": "Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Vis.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives. For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely. The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit, most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection, even though Internet is an essential service. Those in underserved areas, including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, cannot work from home and their children cannot keep up with their classmates. For many of my indigenous constituents, Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies don't want to serve them. I, along with my colleagues, launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions. We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada. This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved.", "speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. McLeod.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada has been awarded its first-ever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme. Congratulations go to Lutsl K' Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation, with support from Deninu K'ue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area. It's 14,000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you'll find anywhere on earth. I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canada's $7.9-million commitment, along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year. The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large. Congratulations to Lutsl K'.", "speaker": "Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Falk.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Liberal government has tabled $87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study, debate and pass it. The allocated time is wholly inadequate. Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent. They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament. It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this government's spending. It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy. It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal government's programs fail to meet their intended goals. A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy. Canadians are owed better. Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting, parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do.", "speaker": "Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC)" }, { "content": "We now go to Mr. Godin.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Our planet is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. Our daily lives have been turned upside down. I am thinking of you, our seniors, valuable individuals who built our country. You have gone through a very restrictive confinement. You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families. Our students also had to adapt. Their school year was turned on its head. Our graduating class, especially, saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish. The future belongs to them. They must follow their dreams. I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things. We have all taken on our important responsibility, that of following the guidelines. The results have been most compelling in my riding. I want to say how proud I am to represent you here, in the Canadian Parliament. I thank each and everyone of you. You are helping PortneufJacques-Cartier flourish. You have shown resilience, creativity, innovation and solidarity. That is commendable. Together, we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger.", "speaker": "Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Gazan.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg, led by women and non-binary individuals, who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality. We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism. We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power. We will speak out against police violence. We will speak out against systemic racism. We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us, not abuse us. We will call out those who abuse their power. We will rise. We will rise. We will rise. To all the women and non-binary folks who are standing, I say, let's continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected. Our liberation is intertwined. Solidarity.", "speaker": "Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)" }, { "content": "Mrs.DeBellefeuille, go ahead.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID-19. However, the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister. First, he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition, while the economic recovery must be prepared. He is refusing to provide an economic update, even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic. He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers. The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave, and not after it. Finally, today, he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed. He is behaving as if he had a majority government. This is not a time for recklessness. Governing means anticipating. I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together.", "speaker": "Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Uppal.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic. I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods' Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors. Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and Dil-E-Punjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals. Sikh Youth Edmonton delivered free groceries to families, seniors and students. Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton. The Bhartiya Cultural Society Hindu temple provided free meals to anyone who needed them. Punjab Insurance and The Punjab chain of restaurants provided free meals in downtown Edmonton. The staff, nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy. I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength, resilience and compassion as we move forward together.", "speaker": "Hon. Tim Uppal (Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now proceed to Mr. Fonseca.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today is Portugal Day, celebrated both in Portugal and around the world by Portuguese. In Canada, June has been recognized as Portuguese Heritage Month. We're truly happy to recognize the great contributions made by Canadians of Portuguese descent. This year is a difficult one, though, for all of us, including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation. Our prayers and well wishes are with everyone. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times. Your warmth, hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally. As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family, I know this year will be a lot different from previous years. I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal, and please continue to support our local businesses. ", "speaker": "Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We now begin the period of questions for ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for sitting to substitute each other very safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister is doing everything to avoid being accountable to Canadians. He is refusing to table a budget, refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work. Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities, but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that. I hope the opposition parties will allow a vote and a debate in the House on this important bill.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister wants parliamentarians to vote on aspects of the government's spending. We want the Auditor General to be able to examine that government spending. Under the government, the Auditor General has had to do more with less, and her ability to conduct audits is being affected. The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits, despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending. I have a simple question. Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job, yes or no?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor General's office in 2018-19, and the equivalent of 38 full-time staff were added. We support the Auditor General, unlike the Conservative government, which fired 60 people from the Auditor General's office. We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon, and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "The Prime Minister is again engaged in revisionist history. He well knows that it was the Auditor General's office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies, which did not affect its ability to do the job. In fact, as the interim auditor general, John Wiersema, said, We would not have proposed if we didnt think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament. Only the government's refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor General's ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve, and we wonder why. This is the government that cannot explain where 20,000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars' worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone. They can't identify that. Then there is, of course, the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank, which has completed precisely zero projects. Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, talking of revisionist history, Stephen Harper's Conservatives cut $6.5 million from the Auditor General's budget and fired 60 staff. On the contrary, we worked with the Auditor General's office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new full-time staff. We will continue to demonstrate openness and transparency. We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament, whom the Conservatives, in their time in office, showed no respect for. We will continue to move forward in a way that has led, for example, to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians. The Conservatives don't seem to want that debate or vote.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position. The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did, so I understand why he likes to live in the past. In May, the interim auditor general said, Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. With our current resources, we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year. That's half the number of audits, despite a massive explosion in government spending. The Auditor General's office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done. Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor General's office, yes or no?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we very much look forward to working with the new Auditor General to ensure that her office has the ability to continue the important audits and transparency measures that are foundational to our institutions. Speaking of what is foundational to our institutions, this afternoon we're putting forward a bill that would help Canadians across the country, and we've proposed to debate and vote on that bill. It actually looks like the Conservatives and other opposition parties might not want this. They have been complaining about not having debates and votes in Parliament, and now they're proposing not to have them. That's a little head-scratching. We hope they're going to help Canadians.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "We will continue with Mr.Blanchet.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We may have a chance here to replace a problem with a good opportunity. This morning, we heard many groups and organizations that represent people with a disability express their concerns over the bill introduced by the government, which I feel is chocolate pudding containing cod liver oil. We agree with the chocolate pudding. We are favourable to helping people with a disability. People don't know the rules. They don't knowI am telling them nowthat a bill can be divided. It can be cut into parts and voted on in parts. The rest of the bill can be enhanced. I am saying to the Prime Minister that, if he presents the part on disabled individuals, it will be passed at the speed of light. He won't even see it happen. Is he prepared to divide the bill, so that we can work together to help people with a disability?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ)" }, { "content": "The bill that we are proposing this afternoon will certainly help people living with disabilities. We can always recognize that this is important, and every party should be open to it. We will also increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit from four-week intervals to two weeks. We will also expand the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses will have access to it. I am always willing to work with members of the opposition to ensure that we adopt these measures, all or some of the measures. We want to help Canadians. We look forward to debating and voting on this later today.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "It is a glorious day. I heard all or some of the measures. That means that we are not adopting them all at the same time and that the bill is being split. Can the Prime Minister confirm that he is in fact going to split his bill so that we can address the various components separately, since they have nothing to do with each other, and improve them, in keeping with our mandate as elected officials?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "Our goal on this side of the House, and it is shared by all members of the House, is to help Canadians during the pandemic. We have put forward a number of measures that will help Canadians in a tangible way. Yes, that includes Canadians living with disabilities, but it also includes businesses that cannot, but should be able to, access the wage subsidy. In addition, we are going to make the Canada emergency response benefit more flexible. I look forward to continuing the discussions", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchet has the floor.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "We almost had some clarity, but one swallow does not make a summer. Yes, there is a need for discussions on the Canada emergency response benefit. The government says that it wants to transform the program into something very coercive, without admitting that the lack of an employment incentive has essentially sabotaged another program, the wage subsidy. That deserves some thought. That is what we are elected to do. We do not need to spend eight months on this, we can fix it in a few hours. When the government says that we are going to have to vote on this, it means rubber stamping its bill. We have the right to debate it, to have discussions and to improve it. I watched the election on the night of October21. It was a beautiful night. It was more fun than a hockey game. People elected a minority government. Can the government admit that?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "We are not proposing only to vote on this bill this afternoon, we are proposing to debate it. It is the role and responsibility of all of us in the House to exchange ideas and to work together to help Canadians. That is exactly what we are proposing this afternoon. It is about helping people with disabilities, increasing the flexibility of the CERB, and expanding the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses have access to it. I look forward to debating this with my colleagues opposite.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchet, you have 43seconds left.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "That will be enough. I would be remiss if I allowed the Prime Minister to mislead people quite unintentionallyI say this in accordance with the Standing Orders. When we introduce a bill, we discuss it at second reading, we vote, we continue to discuss it and we send it to committee. All that can be done very quickly. However, we must be able to amend and improve this bill. That is how the normal Parliament works. The government doesn't like being in a minority situation. It behaves as if it were a majority government, but it is not. Can we follow the real procedures of Parliament, do a proper job, and then have a vote that is likely to suit the majority of members, not just the Prime Minister?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, my hon. colleague seems to completely forget that we are going through a pandemic. The COVID-19 crisis requires different actions on our part. That is why we provided the text of the bill to the opposition parties four days ago. We have been working with them for hours over the past three or four days to amend the bill, if they had amendments to propose. That is how we are taking action to help Canadians quickly during this crisis, and that is what we will continue to do.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Singh, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities, will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit. We hope to be able to debate it.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "As I said, Mr. Chair, discussions are ongoing on that, but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them, as we have been.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, a family that needs to buy groceries can't take those pretty words and buy groceries with them. We're asking the Prime Minister to extend the CERB for families in need. Will the Prime Minister do that, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to be there for Canadians in the right way. We are engaged with stakeholders, with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I can tell you what the right way is. Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he's an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened. He is now dependent on the CERB. He wants to go back to work, but there's no work. He sent an email saying he's faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he's frightened that if the CERB runs out, and it is planned to run out at the end of this month, then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet. Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, and as we have been saying from the beginning, we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it. The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon. We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities, to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB. He doesn't even want to debate those things. He doesn't even want to be voting on them. Will the NDP allow us to move forward on these important measures for Canadians?", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, let's talk about those measures. One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities. Now the government's plan is only going to help 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40%, or a significant portion, of people with disabilities, he wants to help none of them, because he's not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill. That's unfortunate. We're always happy to look at how we can do more. We have demonstrated from the beginning that we want to do more for Canadians. I look forward to working with the NDP. I am hoping those members change their minds and allow us to have an important debate this afternoon.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Let's talk about the 60% who aren't being helped. They are veterans living with disabilities, those who receive CPP and those who receive disability payments. Often it's the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who won't be helped with the plan the government is proposing. Will the government help all Canadians living with disabilities?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our proposal will help 100% of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit, including many veterans. The fact is that we are there to support the disability community. We are there to support Canadians with disabilities. Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation?", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Singh, we have 43 seconds for a question and an answer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, that's the exact problem with the Liberal proposal. It's a tax credit approach, which excludes the vast majority of Canadians living with disabilities. That is the wrong approach. We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB, if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities, we will move forward. Will the government do that?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I have said from the beginning, we look forward to continuing to work with the members opposite to keep moving forward to help Canadians. However, we need the opposition parties to actually choose to help Canadians and not to play political games. I hope we're going to be able to actually have a debate and a vote on this important legislation this afternoon.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "We're now going to take a short pause to allow staff to change up in a safe way respecting COVID-19 procedure. The floor now goes to Mr. Rayes.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, can the Prime Minister tell us whether we will have an economic update by the end of June?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. It is of course very important to be transparent. When the situation is stable, we will have", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)" }, { "content": "Once again, the floor goes to Mr.Rayes.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, most of the provinces in Canada are working on tabling economic updates by the end of June. Why is the Liberal government unable to do so as well?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "I understand the importance of transparency and that is why we are trying every day to explain our investments to Canadians and to continue to be transparent with them.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "The Liberal government announced hundreds of billions of dollars in new spending during the pandemic, but it still refuses to provide an economic update in order to be transparent with Canadians. In times of crisis, monitoring the situation is more important than ever. I repeat my question: why does this government not want to table an economic update by the end of June, when the provinces are doing so?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "Every day, we explain the economic situation, our investments, the changes we are making, and our programs to improve the situation of Canadians during the pandemic. We will continue our approach to being transparent.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself does not understand why the federal government cannot deliver an economic update when the provinces can. Why are the government and the minister defying the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is an independent officer and is requesting an economic update?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "We will continue with our approach, which is one of transparency. We know that it's very difficult to make projections given the very dynamic nature of the situation. We think our approach of providing information daily is appropriate and we will continue to be transparent about our investments.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "That is incredible. When we listen to the minister and the Prime Minister talk, you would think we were in the pesky terrible twos phase that children go through, when they keep saying no, no, no. I find it funny that the provinces are able to table an economic update in a crisis situation. The opposition parties are asking for it, as are experts and officials. When the time comes for the government to listen to the scientists, it has no problem doing so. However, if people do not think like the government, it ignores them. The provinces are doing it, the opposition parties are calling for it and the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. Why will the Minister of Finance not table an economic update so that all members of Parliament can do their verification work?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "I will continue to provide daily information on our measures and investments. Projections are clearly very difficult to make. However, when the situation is more stable, we will be able to provide more information to Canadians. In the meantime, we will be adapting to the situation on a daily basis and making sure that we have the information we need to make our decisions and to make sure that Canadians understand our situation.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 45seconds left.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, one month ago, the Prime Minister announced with great fanfare that the eligibility criteria for the $40,000emergency loans for businesses would be more flexible to help self-employed entrepreneurs and businesses that pay themselves dividends to have access to them. However, as of todayit has been four weeks since that announcementbusinesses are still banging their heads on the doors of their financial institutions. They do not have access to the information because it is not available on official websites. In addition, even senior officials confirmed to me during a technical call on June2, last Tuesday, that this information would not be available for several weeks. Can the Minister of Finance, who says he wants to act quickly to help our businesses, explain why, after four weeks, it is still not possible to get the information the Prime Minister promised us from his doorstep?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have been listening and responding to small businesses and entrepreneurs across the country. In fact, we have even announced the expansion of the program's eligibility criteria to include many owner-managed small businesses with payrolls of less than$20,000. The new criteria have forced financial institutions to adapt to be able to provide this program to new applicants. We are working around the clock to ensure that we are able to promptly provide small businesses across the country with the assistance they need.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance)" }, { "content": "We will now proceed to Mr. Allison.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's unemployment rate stands at 13.7%. That's the highest it's been in almost four decades. Many industries, like travel, hospitality and tourism, are getting crushed. We rely on a lot of hospitality and tourism in my riding of Niagara West. Can the government tell us what their plans are to help the travel, hospitality and tourism industry that so many of my constituents depend on?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison (Niagara West, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his important question. I had a good conversation with the mayor of Niagara Falls recently, and we believe in the importance of the tourism sector. That's exactly why we've extended the wage subsidy until the end of August. There is the CEBA loan, the $40,000 loan. There is also spending through FedDev in my colleague's region. If he has clear, specific projects in the tourism sector that he needs help with, I would ask that he please come and see me and have a conversation.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the message from the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Perrin Beatty, and also other industries, is that we need a clear and coherent plan from this government because there's a whole hodgepodge of regulations and confusion about what's going to happen through the strategy. What I've told the government is that we need a strategy to reflect local conditions that is consistent and has a clear timeline so that businesses can begin to open safely and with confidence. What is the government doing to make this happen?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we absolutely agree. It is important for businesses to have an understanding of the programs that we've put in place. We have been consulting with businesses on the appropriate way to extend the wage subsidy so that we can continue to support businesses as they turn towards a safe restart. We've also looked very carefully at how we can ensure that the programs that we've put forward", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Allison.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has come way short of meeting the Canadian demand for personal protective equipment. Some equipment procured from overseas has been substandard and couldn't be used. Because of the shortage, in my riding of Niagara West, dentists have to pay up to 10 times the amount for an N95 mask. Compared to early March, when will the government finally begin to produce enough PPE in Canada to meet Canadian demand?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. We have mobilized over 700 Canadian companies to help them retool and rescale their efforts to make more personal protective equipment in Canada as part of a made-in-Canada initiative. We're going to continue to work with industry to build up domestic capacity.", "speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)" }, { "content": "Global News is reporting that Canada is struggling to secure a reliable source of PPE. What's the evidence of this? We know that the government procured 10 million substandard N95 masks that couldn't be used. Masks were sent back to suppliers for having flaws. We received mouldy swabs to be used in COVID-19 tests. Planes are arriving empty that should have been filled with PPE, and we received less than 5% of our total order of gloves. It's clear that Canada needs to rely on Canada for PPE. When will this government finally begin to take PPE equipment issues seriously and make enough in Canada to meet demands by Canadians?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the honourable member's questions were tainted with inaccuracies. Regarding the flights that returned from China without federal cargo, Air Canada did reimburse the federal government for that amount. In addition, with regard to the N95 masks that were referenced, the Government of Canada will not pay for masks that it does not use. Furthermore, as my colleague Minister Bains just stated, we are mobilizing and retooling the domestic industry. Over half of the face shields that we have received were produced in Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)" }, { "content": "At a time when the Prime Minister has ordered Canadians to stay home and businesses to remain closed, at a time when Canadians have had to say goodbye to their relatives over Skype, at a time when Canadians are not allowed to get married, at a time when Canadians are being fined for taking their kids to the park, at a time when restaurants are being fined $800 for allowing customers to eat outside and not being socially distanced, in these times, the Prime Minister's son attended a mass gathering with thousands of people while not socially distancing. Mr. Chair, why is it that there seems to be one set of rules in this country for some people but a different set for the Prime Minister? Why the double standard?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as the member knows, this country has been gripped with the need to stand up with one another to fight the experience of racism that so many Canadians live with and that so many of our American cousins live with. As the member knows, local public health sets advice for regions that he specified, and I would encourage all Canadians to check with local public health advice before they resume activities.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)" }, { "content": "Now we'll go to Mr. Chiu.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Many Canadian veterans are noticing that medical providers are increasing their costs. Everything is more expensive these days, including medicine, etc. It can take upwards of a year for Veterans Affairs to adjust their rate scale to compensate, and they do not allow for retroactive reimbursement. What are the government's actions to alleviate this hardship for our men and women who stood guard for this country, our veterans?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu (StevestonRichmond East, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the fact is that when we inherited the government, Veterans Affairs needed a lot of support from government. In fact, at that time, we invested $10 billion to make sure that Veterans Affairs was put in place and that we could provide the appropriate supports for veterans, like the pension for life, the centre of excellence on PTSD and the chronic pain centre of excellence. All of these things are so important. We have to realize that with government previously", "speaker": "Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs)" }, { "content": "We'll now go back to Mr. Chiu.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister, for answeringor respondingto my question, although that really did not provide an answer, in my humble opinion. Part of the side effect of spending hundreds of millions of dollars is inflation. My constituents in StevestonRichmond East are overwhelmingly finding this government's support for seniors inadequate. The opposition has put forward clear proposals, such as a one-time tax-free withdrawal being allowed for an RRSP or a RRIF. So far, the government has not taken any action on this. Why is the government ignoring suggestions to help Canadian seniors?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I want seniors to know that they are not alone. To help preserve their registered retirement income fund assets, we are reducing minimum withdrawals by 25% for 2020. We're also providing direct financial support so that seniors can get the help they need now. As the market is volatile during this time, we continue to look at all ways that we can best help seniors during this difficult time.", "speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Hong Kong government has arrested 9,000 civilians just in the past year. This is equivalent to the arrest of 42,000 people, proportional to Canada's population. It is anticipated that more unjust incarcerations will occur as Beijing imposes the national security law in Hong Kong. Has our government started preparing a list of names for Magnitsky-style sanctions, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as we have said, we and our allies are deeply concerned with Beijing's decision to impose a national security law on Hong Kong. With hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in its stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. The proposed law would also undermine the one country, two systems framework.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport)" }, { "content": "I thank the minister for responding. Again, however, words are not enough. It's time for action, because the Chinese embassy has said, in response to Canada's expressed concern, that they deplore, reject and condemn our response and our concerns thus far. What are the conditions for this government using Magnitsky sanctions should China continue to incarcerate Canadians and jeopardize the human rights of its citizens?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been very clear. We will continue to encourage all parties to engage in peaceful and meaningful dialogue to address the legitimate concerns expressed by the Hong Kong population. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chiu, we have about 22 seconds, so you have time for a very quick question and hopefully a very quick answer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Okay, here's a quick question. The Communist Chinese government has lied about COVID-19. They have issued statements against Canada and they have yet to release the two Canadians being held hostage. My constituents are concerned over this. When will this government listen to Canadians and call for a stronger, more effective and truly independent international investigation into COVID-19's origin?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "The honourable minister has 22 seconds or less, please.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we are dealing with a global pandemic, COVID-19. It is critically important that all countries in the world work together in a transparent, open and respectful manner so that we understand what is going on and how we can bring it to an end as quickly as possible.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "The next question will come from Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, if the government orders someone who has been exposed to a confirmed COVID case into a 14-day quarantine, why won't the government allow them to take an antibody test to lift the quarantine so they can go back to work?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (RenfrewNipissingPembroke, CPC)" }, { "content": "As the member opposite may or may not know, testing strategies are determined by provinces and territories. Furthermore, the testing of a particular person has to be done at the right point in time", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, there have already been some tests that have been approved. My friend and colleague here, Colin Carrie, from the constituency of Oshawa, has a constituent who has a test. It's 90% accurate and it's being sold to the United States and other countries. Why won't they provide a DIN number to it so that Canadians have access to it as well, regardless of which province or territory they live in?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I think the member is talking about two separate things. Any test kit that would be approved by Health Canada would be accessible to wherever that company chose to market that test kit. Furthermore, it's really important that test kits that are approved by Health Canada be accurate and have been tested with rigour with regard to their ability to provide credible and accurate information to the people who are using that test.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the test has proven to have an accuracy rate of 90% in identifying whether or not an individual has antibodies. Why won't she allow it to be used here?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I am happy to follow up with the member opposite's office when she is able to provide me with the name of the company. As you can imagine, there are many vendors trying to", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "How long will it take for an antibody test to be approved by this government once you have the name of the company and the test and the evidence in front of you?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Before we go to the honourable minister, I just want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair and not directly. Go ahead, Minister.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "We have an expedited process that could be completed in as little as five to seven days, depending on the accuracy of the test and the information supplied by the vendor.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, will Health Canada use reputable data from other countries to speed their determinations about antibody effectiveness, or just continue to withhold access?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Canadians expect us, at Health Canada, to ensure the accuracy and the safety of all equipment approved for use in Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chairman, if the minister can approve tests and studies within five days, why is it taking over 30, over 60, or over 90 days to approve an antibody test that exists?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "I appreciate the member opposite's interest in urgent and quick approvals; however, sometimes, depending on the company, there may be further questions and further tests that need to be run to ensure the accuracy or safety of that equipment. Should she wish me to check into the process for a particular", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We will go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Have officials provided the government with a target for a daily antibody test to complete an initial survey or the initial phase of a study?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is talking about the work of the immunity task force, which is, as you know, a group of scientists who have been funded by the Government of Canada", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We'll go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, would the minister please provide the names of the people on the task force to which she just referred?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I will forward those names to the office of the member opposite.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "I hope that will be within the next two days or so, and not wait until after the crisis has passed, Mr. Chairman. Why isn't the Prime Minister showing as much fervour for antibody testing as he is for getting a vaccine on the market?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I reject the premise of that question. In fact, the Prime Minister has shown fervour for all aspects of dealing with the coronavirus from the very inception of the virus on the world stage. To allege otherwise is quite disingenuous.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We'll go on to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "When will the government give the Auditor General the funds she needs to do her job?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC)" }, { "content": "First, Mr. Chair, I would like to offer my congratulations to the new Auditor General for her appointment. On behalf of the government, I would also like to offer her our full support and collaboration", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage)" }, { "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "I share the minister's wish to congratulate the new Auditor General on her position. I will now ask him again when he will give her the funds she needs to do her job.", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, her role is essential to our democracy. We are eager to work with her. She's more than welcome to share her concerns directly with the government. I can assure her that my", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I didn't ask him if he would like to work with the Auditor General. I asked him if he will give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job.", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our government has added 38 permanent staff positions to her office, while the Conservative government, under their leadership, cut the funding for more than 60", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "We'll move on to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, through you, I caution the minister to not mislead this House. If he will look at the committee transcripts of the time, he will know that it was the Auditor General's decision to reduce their own budget. The Conservatives did not cut positions. That is a matter of fact. The point is that the Auditor General now does not have the money to do her job. She has cut performance audits and she has stopped work on performance audits. When will this government give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "With us, it was 38 new positions, Mr. Chair. With them, it was 60 positions fewer.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has drastically expanded its spending and is avoiding accountability in every way it can. The finance committee yesterday, with the support of Liberal backbench MPs who are on that committee, unanimously passed a motion to fund the Auditor General in full so that her office can do her job. If this minister will not listen to me, will he at least listen to his own backbenchers?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our government is fully committed to supporting the important and ongoing work of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament. If the Auditor General identifies the need for additional resources, we will work with the Office of the Auditor General to ensure that they have all the resources they need to continue fulfilling their mandate efficiently and effectively.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Auditor General has consistently, since 2018, told this government that the office doesn't have enough funds. It's not a mystery. The Auditor General has told the public accounts committee that it cannot do its job. It's the first time in history that the Auditor General has had to tell public accounts that they don't have the resources to do their job. It's not a matter of if the Auditor General needs more funds. The Auditor General couldn't be more clear. When will this government actually do the right thing and fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, maybe I'm not making myself clear in English. I will switch to my native tongue, French, in case it becomes clearer. If the Auditor General identifies a need for additional resources, we will work with her to ensure that her office can continue to deliver its mandate efficiently and effectively. In addition, our government worked with the Auditor General to increase funding in 2018-09. With this increase, the office was able to add the equivalent of 38new full-time staff to its team. That's 38more employees", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "The floor goes to Mr.Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this isn't an if situation. The Auditor General has already told this government that her office does not have funds. This has been ongoing since 2018. I would ask the minister to please stop with the platitudes and actually just say yes or no. Will the government give the Auditor General the money that the Auditor General has already asked for?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we have already increased the budget of the Office of the Auditor General in the 2018-19 period.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Before we continue, we're going to suspend for a second to bring in the next chair.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "There's a point of order.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.))" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I know that no member would knowingly mislead the House. No member wants to do that. It's always customary to give members a chance to correct the record, so I call upon the minister to do so now, and perhaps even the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister misled the House in his response to a question. I have here the transcripts of the public accounts committee, and they will confirm that the", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "This is beginning to sound a bit like debate. We will proceed. Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. First, I would like to take this opportunity to say hi from Portugal. I would also like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague and friend, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean. Obrigado. While Quebec estimates its additional health care costs related to COVID-19 at $3billion, Ottawa is transferring around $115million, which is not even4%. Does the government recognize that this is clearly insufficient?", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, we invested an initial $500 million in transfers to the provinces and territories to manage the extreme pressure put on health care systems as a result of their supporting people living with COVID and in preventing COVID. We want to thank the provinces and territories for their work, and as the member opposite knows, we will continue to be there for the provinces and territories. This is a significant transfer, and we think", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, the minister says that this is a substantial transfer. Yes, it is a lot of money. The government is giving about $115million to Quebec, but that is not even 4%of what is being requested. Does the minister recognize that much more is needed?", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie" }, { "content": "We have been working with the provinces and territories from the beginning to respond to the crisis. We have increased health care transfers, provided medical protective equipment and responded to all requests for assistance. We have been able to make so much progress in the fight against COVID-19 precisely because of this co-operation. Stirring up an imaginary quarrel between the federal government and Quebec", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, it isn't about squabbling, it's about needs. The share that the federal government is giving isn't enough. We should act now, before we see a possible second wave. What we're seeing today are the results of massive disinvestment by the federal government in health care. This isn't good enough. The government must act quickly. Can the government commit to better funding to the health care sector and to organizing a meeting with Quebec and the provinces on this exact topic, in September at the latest? We can't afford to wait.", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie" }, { "content": "The hon. minister's response will have to be brief.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, with respect to the transfers to provinces and territories, the member opposite knows that our government, in our last mandate, significantly increased transfers to the provinces and territories for health services, including mental health and home care services. In fact, the funding we're providing is in addition to the $40 billion that was transferred", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. Tudo bem? Tudo bom? Today in La Presse, we learned that the government has extended its military presence in long-term care homes. Can the minister confirm this information, and can he also confirm that the presence of these 500soldiers is indeed in response to a request from the Government of Quebec?", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, let me assure the member that when Quebec made a request for assistance at the beginning of April, we answered the call. When they asked for an extension of that, we said we would continue to provide that assistance. I had a conversation today with Minister Guilbault, my counterpart in Quebec, and we have renewed our commitment to continuing to provide assistance. That assistance can take additional forms and can include involving the Canadian Red Cross, but we remain committed to providing the assistance that Quebec needs.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "If I understand correctly, negotiations are still under way with the Government of Quebec, even though it needs these soldiers. The mission ends Friday. This isn't really the time to negotiate anymore. We have to make sure that the military will stay in our long-term care homes as long as we need their services in Quebec, and until new attendants have been trained. Can the minister confirm that the mission will indeed be extended?", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe" }, { "content": "I'd like to assure this House that we have assured Quebec that the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to provide support until such time as other trained professional people are able to do that job. We're working very hard with the Province of Quebec. We're working with the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross. We will be there for Quebeckers because they need our help, and as long as they need our help, we'll be there to support them.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "This isn't the time to play cat-and-mouse. The only thing we have to do is to give the Government of Quebec what it's asking for. Quebec pays 23%of the army's budget, so Quebeckers are entitled to this support. Quebec has more than 5,000deaths from COVID-19, 90%of which have been in seniors' residences or long-term care homes. The military's presence is vital because they play an extraordinary and essential role. Will the minister commit to extending the mission now and putting an end to this uncertainty? It's certainly bad for both the military and the health care workers, who rely on this support.", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe" }, { "content": "The hon. minister has 10seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Again, Madam Chair, let me be very clear. We have made a commitment to the Province of Quebec that we will continue to provide that support until the middle of September, exactly as they have requested, but we are also working to ensure that we have an sustainable, effective solution to the request that Quebec has made, so we're working with the Province of Quebec, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross to ensure the help that is needed is there.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "We will go now to Bryan May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure and an honour to be with you all today. I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member of Parliament for Scarborough North. Madam Chair, COVID-19 continues to create challenges for all Canadians, including those with disabilities, and exacerbates those experienced by Canadians with disabilities. As we mark the end of National AccessAbility Week, I would like to remind our colleagues that our commitment to making Canada more inclusive and equitable is ongoing, including our passing of the Accessible Canada Act. Would the minister inform the House about the government's plans to support Canadians with disabilities who are experiencing increased costs due to COVID-19?", "speaker": "Mr. Bryan May (Cambridge, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, last week was the first National AccessAbility Week that was legislated under the historic Accessible Canada Act, and I thank every party in this House for the consent they gave to that legislation. I'm hoping we have the same spirit of camaraderie for people with disabilities this afternoon. Since the beginning, Madam Chair, we have taken a disability inclusion approach on how we support people with disabilities in this time of pandemic, including the establishment of our COVID-19 disability advisory group, which has given us invaluable advice. I thank them so much for their contributions to our efforts. Last week we announced a suite of measures to support people with disabilities that complement existing measures that are in place. This includes a one-time payment of $600 to 1.25 million citizens with disabilities, which again is the subject matter of the legislation this afternoon, as well as a $15-million investment in an accessible workplace initiative that will ensure, moving forward.... We know that as we move back into employment situations it will be very tough for people with disabilities. Finally, there are five really exciting accessible technology initiatives, including working on point-of-sale terminals for Canadians who are blind or visually impaired.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)" }, { "content": "You may have a very short question, Mr. May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her department for all the work they are doing to ensure that accessibility is at the forefront of everybody's mind through this crisis.", "speaker": "Mr. Bryan May" }, { "content": "Mr. Chen is next.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as humanity battles COVID-19, we are confronted by the stark realities of another disease. On May 25, George Floyd fell unconscious and died as a police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes. This all happened after the 46-year-old black man was handcuffed and put in a position where he could do no harm. In Canada, we have come a long way since Viola Desmond, yet there is much more to do. Anti-black racism is institutionalized, hidden under dominant narratives of a free and multicultural society. Hatred has no boundaries, whether it is against black communities or is anti-Asian sentiment fuelled by COVID-19. The question always is this: Who is next? We must all stand up together against hatred and for justice and reconciliation, to dismantle systems of oppression that long remained unquestioned. Recent data from Statistics Canada shows that Canada is failing black youth, creating the conditions that push them into the justice system. To the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, my question is this: What is the government doing to address the unique challenges faced by black youth?", "speaker": "Mr. Shaun Chen (Scarborough North, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the member for Scarborough North is absolutely correct. We must all do what we can to stand up against hatred and injustice. We often say that today's youth are not only the leaders of tomorrow but the leaders of today, so we need to equip them for success by investing in youth. According to the 2016 census, black Canadians accounted for 1.2 million people, and more than a quarter of that population is under the age of 15. Socio-economic gaps, such as in employment and education, exist between black and non-black youth. We need to do better. Our government has brought forward youth so they can inform the decisions we make. We have Canada's first youth policy, and it was created by youth for youth to ensure that all young people are equipped to live healthy and fulfilling lives, and are empowered to create positive change for themselves and their communities. Our government launched the community support for black Canadian youth program, which supported 56 projects geared to address the unique challenges faced by black Canadian youth through the development of leadership skills and civic engagement, while empowering them through the promotion of black history, culture and identity. To address the challenges of the pandemic, our government has implemented a suite of measures designed to help youth and students, including with employment and service opportunities. My office is working with community organizations who serve black youth to make sure they too are both aware of and benefiting from these measures.", "speaker": "Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth)" }, { "content": "Ms. Mathyssen is next.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be splitting my time with the member for TimminsJames Bay. Schools in many provinces remain closed, and many child care providers want to reopen. They must reduce their capacity due to COVID-19. Now more than ever we need universal, publicly funded child care to restart the economy. Will the government bring in legislation that would enshrine into law access to, and federal funding for, quality affordable child care?", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (LondonFanshawe, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we are, of course, committed to investments in child care. We have constantly worked with provinces and territories to ensure that we provide the supports they need to provide quality, affordable and accessible child care. Since 2015, we have created over 40,000 child care spaces. We are committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)" }, { "content": "The government doesn't seem to understand that this is not universal child care. During COVID-19, women have lost the majority of jobs, and they have taken on the majority of additional child care responsibilities. Canadian women want and need to return to work, but this government doesn't understand that without affordable child care, they simply cannot re-enter the workforce. For 26 years, Liberal governments have been promising, but failing to deliver, a universal child care program. Parents are paying the price. How much longer do parents have to wait?", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for the important question. Since 2015, we have created 40,000 affordable, accessible, quality child care spaces across the country. We are on track to continue to invest $7.5 billion over 11 years to create additional child care spaces and support provinces and territories. We're constantly in touch with our counterparts to work to strengthen that sector. We are also keeping our promise and our commitment to create an additional 250,000 spaces. We will be there for parents as they get back to work, and we will continue to reinforce the early learning and child care sector.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen" }, { "content": "You have time for a very short question, Ms. Mathyssen.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Without universal child care, we are crippling our economy. We are not providing an affordable system, and this stops women from returning to work. Instead of helping parents return to work, the government is now bringing forward legislation that's penalizing them. Why is the government looking to sentence mothers and fathers to jail time and large fines when they cannot find the child care that", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen" }, { "content": "The honourable minister has time for a short answer.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We are committed to the early learning and child care sector. We will move forward with the creation of an early learning and child care secretariat. We will continue to invest in this sector. We recognize its importance.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen" }, { "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Angus.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an honour to be here, and I'm hoping that you and your family stay safe at this time. COVID has shaken up Canada's middle class, so my question is for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity. This morning I spoke with a businesswoman. She runs her own business, a travel agency, but because of COVID she has been wiped out. She's on CERB, and it's ticking down. There's no work to go back to, so in four weeks she hits the economic wall. Will the minister fight for an extension of CERB so this woman can stay in the middle class?", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we know how worried Canadians are as they see their final four-week period of the CERB approaching, and we're working very hard to ensure that the CERB continues to serve an important purpose as we move into economic recovery. I'll note that when we created the CERB, there was a different purpose in mind. We were asking people to stay home. Now we're asking people to go back to work if it's safe for them to do so. We're going to make sure that the wage subsidy and the CERB complement each other. In fact, the measures in today's legislation will help us to get the flexibility to be able to do just that.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We did give you a little more time. We will go to Mr. Angus.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. What I've seen with their legislation today is that they're talking about jailing people. We need a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity in a time of middle-class disparity, and she has talked about middle-class criminality. Let's talk about this again, about people going back to work. I spoke with a 51-year-old bartender. He's a professional; this is his job. There is no job to go back to. Will the minister assure us that this man will be able to stay in the middle class because the CERB will still be there in July, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus" }, { "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we've been helping Canadians by putting programs in place. We will continue to support families during the crisis, and afterwards as well.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier" }, { "content": "Mr. Angus, you have time for a very short comment or question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "The issue here is that when COVID hit, millions of Canadians were living in such precarious working conditions that they didn't even have enough money to pay their rent. That is a damning indictment. In four weeks, those Canadians are going to hit the economic wall again. What I need to know from the minister, and what Canadians need to know, is whether she will commit, yes or no, that the CERB will be there for those who have no work to go back to.", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have been helping families with a supplement to the Canada child benefit. We have put in place the Canada emergency response benefit. We will continue to find ways to support Canadian families during this crisis.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cooper.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It was all the way back on March 25 that the Minister of Finance stated that help for the energy sector was coming within hours, possibly days. Well, as it turns out, it hasn't been hours. It hasn't been days. It hasn't even been weeks. Indeed, months later, help has yet to arrive. Seventy-seven days after the minister made that statement, not a single energy company has received financing under EDC, the BDC, or the LEEFF program. As the energy sector faces an unprecedented liquidity crisis, how can this government possibly justify such a delay?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper (St. AlbertEdmonton, CPC)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, weeks ago we opened applications through the business credit availability program to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We've also opened applications for measures that will be available to our larger players through our LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry. We will continue to support workers, and we will continue to do so to get through this unprecedented challenge.", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, on June 2, the vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers said, The entire industry is frustrated with the delay that we are facing. The Saskatchewan Minister of Energy and Resources has spoken about a gaping hole that exists in terms of support for the energy sector. The gaping hole that I'm speaking of is the EDC and BDC programs that this government has failed to deliver upon. Indeed, it was on April 17 that those programs were announced, and 54 days later, not only has not a single energy company received financing, but guess what? They can't even apply, and the eligibility criteria have yet to be finalized after 54 days. If that is not failing to deliver for the energy sector, what is?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Business Council of Alberta has said that the LEEFF program is a positive development showing that the federal government recognizes the needs and value of Canada's large corporations. We agree. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through two crises: the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war initiated by Russia and Saudi Arabia. That's why, weeks ago, we opened applications for liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We also announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry to make sure these programs are effective.", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, contrary to the representations of the minister, neither the EDC program nor BDC programs are accepting applications. Just yesterday officials from both BDC and EDC were before the finance committee, where I posed precisely those questions to them. We know, Madam Chair, that the application process isn't up and running and that eligibility criteria remain to be determined, but I guess this government has some good news for the energy sector after 77 days. Now energy sector companies can go on the BDC website and apply for email updates. Is that the kind of help the Minister of Finance had in mind after 77 days: email updates instead of real relief for the energy sector?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Alberta finance minister, Travis Toews, said in a LEEFF announcement that in combination with earlier measures for small and medium-sized companies, it represented an expression of confidence in our industries. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through these two crisesas I said, the impact of COVID, and then on top of that, the effect of a global price war. We opened up applications for liquidity measures as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers asked. Their top five asks were all liquidity. We supported small and medium-sized players essential to the supply chain, who make up 85% of the jobs in that sector, and then we announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry and", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan" }, { "content": "I now have to interrupt for a few moments to allow our technicians to change places. With that done, Monsieur Martel, you may now go ahead..", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, there has recently been positive progress in AndrGauthier's case, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Prime Minister for their co-operation in this matter. However, Mr.Gauthier is currently on his own in the United Arab Emirates, without a passport, waiting to settle civil lawsuits. What services does the minister intend to provide to help him, and when does he plan to repatriate AndrGauthier to Canada?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, in all cases similar to Mr.Gauthier's, the Government of Canada, through its consular services, tries to do the best it can under the circumstances. This file is still active.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "The House recognized on February18, 2020, that the 15weeks of sickness benefits provided by employment insurance were insufficient. Citizens who became ill before March15 are now without help. They are being denied the CERB because they didn't lose their jobs because of COVID-19. They are being denied EI regular benefits because they are unable to work. In addition, some citizens are waiting for surgery, which is being delayed because of COVID-19. Is the government letting these people down?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "No, MadamChair, that's absolutely not the case. Of course, we understand that people who are no longer receiving EI benefits should have access to the CERB. We have committed to extending the emergency sickness benefit to 26weeks. We're working with everyone here to make that happen. We're taking into account the needs and circumstances of all citizens in our efforts to help Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "I've called on the Minister of Economic Development several times to be more flexible in establishing these programs, so that they are better adapted to the realities of the regions. Recently, it was the SMEs in Montreal that were monopolizing the funds earmarked for the regions. When will the Liberal government listen to the needs of regions like SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "I thank my colleague for the opportunity to announce the good news that was mentioned on Radio-Canada this morning, namely, $71million more for the regions of Quebec. Of course, we're here for the regions. I will be happy to work with my colleague to ensure that the CFDC in his region can support businesses. We have to support businesses in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean and across the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "I think that's a canned speech. According to a survey conducted by the Universit de Trois-Rivires in Quebec, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is apparently the most economically affected by COVID-19. We have many projects, but they depend on the government's leadership to be carried out. Our region has forestry, the aluminum sector, GNL Qubec, tourism, the Port of Saguenay, Davie Canada, a military base and a tax centre. It's all here. We know we'll have to get the economy moving again soon. When will the government act to help our region?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "Every day, we act to help my colleague's region. I've had good conversations with Promotion Saguenay. I've also spoken several times with various stakeholders in my colleague's beautiful region. We will always be there for them. I'd like to tell my colleague that there will be other announcements to support the economic development of the beautiful region of SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. I will be happy to work with him to achieve good results.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Sustainable forestry development is at the heart of the economic development of Canada and for SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. Canadians have reason to be proud of the use of the boreal forest in the fight against climate change. Currently, our innovative forest industry is experiencing many problems, and on top of that, there is the COVID-19 crisis. Who will defend our forestry workers?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "Of course, we believe in the importance of regional economic development. That's why we're always there to defend our forestry workers. I will also be pleased to work with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is very familiar with the matter and who knows the challenges faced by the various businesses in the forestry sector, as well as the employees. We will always be there to support employees and create more jobs across Quebec and the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota is next. Go ahead, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. We continue to see significant gaps in the Liberals' programs. There are still people who are falling through the cracks and being left behind. We are hearing from women who are pregnant or who have just given birth and are being left out or told to go back to work. When will this government stop letting Canadians down?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC)" }, { "content": "We know that there are many situations of Canadians who are about to or are just going on maternity or parental benefits who might not have access to their EI benefits due to not having accumulated enough time for COVID reasons. We're working very hard to make sure, as we did for fish harvesters, that we support all Canadians in these situations. I look forward to advising Canadians of our approach on this very soon.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, that simply isn't good enough. This is something that has been brought to the government's attention for months now, and still nothing has been done. These families deserve answers now. Had the government conducted a GBA+ analysis, they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women. Why wasn't a GBA+ conducted?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls. We are working hard to ensure that everyone has the supports they need. As we move forward, we are, as I said earlier, taking into consideration improvements to the EI system, the wage subsidy and the future of CERB. All these play together as we work to provide a comprehensive forward-looking support package for Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA+? Why was it not done?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB. I can tell you that women are benefiting significantly from this benefit.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, it is a simple question, and I will ask again. Why was GBA+ analysis not conducted for the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way, from the beginning, as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, if that's the case, then how did you miss these gaps?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we didn't miss gaps. We, from the beginning, looked to support as many people as possible. As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors, and today to supporting people with disabilities, we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures. As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery, of course we're going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the minister needs to take the responsibility here. These women and families deserve answers. This is a real problem happening right now. You said you would conduct GBA+ analysis on all policy measures moving forward. Where is the assistance for these expectant mothers?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I take responsibility. I'm very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures, how many women received the GST credit, how many women who lead families received the CCB one-time payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have all-party consent today.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota, may I remind you to please direct your questions through the chair?", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I will ask again, hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "My goodness, Madam Chair. I'll say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls, and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase, how completely we make women at the core of every decision.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota, you have 15 seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, my question is still not answered. She keeps repeating the same answer. I'll keep asking the same question, hoping for a straightforward answer. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Honourable minister, you have five seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we've taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning, and we'll continue to do so.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We go now to Mr. Carrie.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 I asked Minister Blair why Lisa Freeman, a constituent of mine, wasn't able to participate in the Parole Board hearing of her father's murderer. The minister acknowledged that this had been a mistake and that victims would now be able to attend by telephone and video conference. Can the minister tell this House how many parole hearings have been conducted under this digital format with victims since April 29?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank my honourable colleague for the question. I'm glad to hear that Minister Blair was able to provide information on the specific case he raises. With regard to his question, we're happy to provide it to him in due course.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship)" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 the minister said, and I quote, Steps have been taken to make it possible for victims to participate in those parole hearings virtually by phone or video conference. If the change has been made, can the minister please tell us how many hearings victims have been able to participate in by video conference?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, certainly we will confirm the number of hearings that may have occurred. With regard to the hearings under the Parole Board of Canada, we want to ensure that victims and others are able to participate in a fair and transparent manner.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, the website says, To protect the health and safety of the public, offenders, Parole Board...members and staff in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the PBC is currently conducting its hearings remotely via video conference or teleconference. However, when referring to victim participation, the PBC says it has Implemented technological and procedural enhancements in order to provide victims...the ability to participate...via telephone. If video conference is an option for staff and inmates, why is it not for victims?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, it is very important that all parties be able to participate before the Parole Board. The Parole Board has introduced technologies to allow victims to participate in a manner that is fair and that accords them the opportunity to express themselves.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the minister is missing the point. For victims, besides the criminal trial, the Parole Board hearings are the only chance to participate in the judicial process. Why are victims not permitted on the video conference, while staff, panels and inmates are?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said now on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in the hearings before the Parole Board. This is as a result of technology and innovations introduced by the Parole Board. Of course, those opportunities will continue to exist going forward.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Then, Madam Chair, why did the minister and this government tell Canadians and the House that victims of crime have the opportunity to participate in parole hearings by video conference, when in fact they do not?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said, of course we are going to confirm the status of that particular request. In the meantime, as I've said on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in these hearings. This is consistent with the fairness of those hearings and the due process we accord to them.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, it's been over a month. When will the minister finally give victims of crime the same right to parole hearings by video conference as he gives convicted inmates?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I reject that proposition. The Parole Board is a well-established tribunal that does allow for all parties, including victims, to participate in a manner that is fair, and that allows them to express themselves so those representations can be taken into account in the decisions of the Parole Board of Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "He can reject it as much as he wants, Madam Chair, but it seems he thinks it's fair that inmates have that right, but victims don't. We'll follow up with him on that. Brandon Hottot owns and operates a contracting business in my riding, and his company needs help. On May 19, the Prime Minister announced the government would allow sole proprietors and gig contractors to qualify for the Canada emergency business account; however, Brandon has still not been able to take advantage of this benefit. When can small business owners like Brandon expect this change to finally be made? It's been over three weeks, and the clock is ticking.", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, from the very beginning, we have been working hard to support our small businesses. Over 660,000 businesses today have received access to small business loans. I want to assure my colleague that additional support will be there within about a week.", "speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade)" }, { "content": "Mr. Carrie, you may have a very short question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Okay, Madam Chair. Shawn and Denise operate a gymnastics facility in Whitby and have been forced to close throughout COVID-19. As the economy begins to open, they are concerned about not having the money to pay their employees in the short term, especially at a reduced client capacity. Is the government extending the wage subsidy to small businesses that have been closed and are just beginning to open now?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "The wage subsidy has been extended until August 31. We hope businesses like that one will be able to take advantage of the wage subsidy to keep their employees on staff.", "speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng" }, { "content": "We will go now to Ms. May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to put it on the record, because we may or may not be debating it, the draft embargoed bill that we've seen is unacceptable to members of the Green Party caucus. My questions will relate largely to those sections that are troublesome. I'll start with a question to the honourable minister for disabilities. I certainly appreciate her work and I know her intentions are the best, but part 3 of this bill allows for the information to be shared so people can get a one-time payment of $600, which is not enough to really deal with the COVID crisis for people with disabilities. It's clearand I thank the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party for making this point clearly in question periodit will reach approximately 40% of people with disabilities because of the structure of going through the disability tax credit. To the honourable minister, are other measures under consideration to reach the rest of the people in Canada with disabilities who need help?", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the disability support payment we are proposing and that we hope to get through the House today complements a whole suite of measures our government has put in place that people with disabilities have access to. We know that people with disabilities who were precariously employed are now taking advantage of the CERB. Students with disabilities get the student benefit, including a $750-per-month top-up for four months. Families with children with disabilities are getting the CCB payment. Disproportionately, people with disabilities are benefiting from the GST payment. I should talk about the provincial letters that are being delivered to recipients of provincial disability supports. All around, Madam Chair, we're trying to get to every citizen with a disability, and this measure fills an important gap.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Much worse than part 3, from our point of view, is the treatment of people who are at this point potentially to be jailed for refusing to return to work when it's considered reasonable and they are recipients of CERB. I wonder about the reasonableness here. It's a subjective test. This is a wrong-headed approach to go after people and threaten them. The retroactive section has already made the Canadian Civil Liberties Association question its constitutionality. To the minister, what's reasonable, and in whose eyes is it reasonable? In today's news, Hamilton's chief medical officer says there is a spike in cases among young people, who likely were exposed while taking public transit to get to work. Their commute wasn't safe. Who determines reasonableness in deciding it's not safe to go back to work?", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as with the current CERB, moving forward it tries to encompass the situations of people who are unemployed, people who can't work because of child care responsibilities, people who are ill or sick. Moving to a broad term of reasonableness allows us to look at the individual circumstances of the person. If we stuck to language like suitable or appropriate, that would qualify the job. We're trying to look at the person and their particular circumstances as we work to ensure that if someone is immunocompromised and can't take transit to their job, then it's reasonable for them not to take that job. That's the exact example we're trying to encompass with broad reasonableness criteria.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "The approach is so very flawed, Madam Chair, in that it attempts to punish people as opposed to encouraging them. I think the Liberals have been overly influenced by the Conservative Party's cries that there's vast fraud, that Canadians are cheating. The reality is that if you want to create an incentive to go back to work, you don't threaten people. What you do is create a sliding scale. You let people continue to receive CERB, but maybe less as they begin to earn more, so that you have a transition on a sliding scale to go into the wage subsidy or into CERB. I ask the honourable minister this: How can it be considered fair to say that someone isn't eligible, even though they believed they were? The language in this bill, particularly at proposed paragraph 12.1 in the penalties section, is an unreasonable determination that someone has violated the act and is subject to jail time and heavy fines.", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, because of parliamentary privilege, I can't and won't speak to specific acts of a piece of law that hasn't actually been introduced in the House, but I'll tell you that what we're trying to do is enhance our integrity measures. We're working with those people who made an honest mistake, those who took advantage of returning to work when they were still receiving the CERB. We're working with those people. We're absolutely confident that those people will find a path forward. We want to deal with intentional fraudsters, people who are criminally taking advantage of seniors. Members of this House have brought fact patterns to my attention and have said, Please deal with these. This is exactly what we're trying to deal with, Madam Chair.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from EsquimaltSaanichSooke. Tourism is a critical part of the economy throughout my riding, and after struggling with years of forest fires and floods, tourism was set to have a record-breaking year in 2020, but the COVID epidemic has burned tourism to the ground, in the words of a local leader. Thousands of jobs have evaporated. Over half of the tourism businesses in the region are facing imminent insolvency. Many of them are small seasonal operations that don't qualify for any of the government's COVID support programs. While funding for ad campaigns is appreciated, these businesses need direct support and they need certainty about that support. Can the finance minister pledge now to provide direct and timely support to tourism businesses in my riding?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings" }, { "content": "Thank you to my colleague for his important question. I agree with him. The tourism sector has been deeply impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis. Yes, we were looking forward to another record-breaking year in 2020, but unfortunately the pandemic happened, and therefore many businesses were impacted. That's why, as a government, we're there to help with the wage subsidy, which has been extended until the end of August, as the tourism sector has been asking us to do; with the CEBA loans, the $40,000 loans, which also include a subsidy; and with the commercial rent relief. That said, we know the tourism sector also sometimes falls through the cracks. That's why we wanted to have a backstop. We came up with funding through the regional development agencies. In my colleague's riding, it's Western Economic Diversification. Some businesses have applied and have received funding. If there are more that need help, please come and see me. I would love to be there to help your community, help tourism", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "A big part of tourism in my riding is the wine sector. One thing that has allowed the wine industry to grow so dramatically in the past few decades is the excise tax exemption. That exemption could likely end very soon if it is found to be non-compliant with our trade agreements. The industry has proposed a trade-legal replacement, the wine growers' value-added program. The finance minister has known about this situation for months. Can he assure this House and the industry that the government will act immediately to implement this program?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We continue to work on this issue. We recognize how important the wine industry is in B.C., and I assure the honourable member that I will come back to him and give him an update.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Garrison.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, this is National Blood Donor Week in Canada. While blood and plasma donations are always important, during this pandemic they're critical. There's a simple and effective way to increase the blood supply: End the gay blood ban. More than 17 other countries have no deferral because they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than identity-based exclusions. The Liberals must agree, because they promised this in two election campaigns. Will the Minister of Health do more than repeat those same promises today and instead take action to get this unscientific and discriminatory gay blood ban lifted?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison (EsquimaltSaanichSooke, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I'm glad to be able to answer this very important question. We indeed want to fight against discrimination. We feel this particularly strongly in the context of the last few days and the last few weeks. We are also mindful of the important contribution of scientists and other experts in this area. We look forward to working with all members in this House in making progress on that issue.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board)" }, { "content": "The government knows I've been calling on friends, family and allies of the gay community to donate blood this week in the place of those of us who cannot. Not only do we need routine blood donations, but to do the research we need on possible prevention and treatment of COVID-19, we urgently need plasma donations from those who have recovered. This ban means that plasma donations are being rejected for no good scientific reason. Again, when will the Minister of Health act to get this ban lifted?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I think the member used the right key words in referring to science and more prevention work to make sure that everyone lives in dignity and safety. Although there has been progress in the last few months and years on this important issue, there is more work to be done.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos" }, { "content": "Six years ago this week, I tabled a motion in the House that called for an end to this homophobic and transphobic ban on blood donations from gay men, men who have sex with men and trans women. That was five ministers of health ago. At the time, I was told certain things had to happen before the ban could be lifted. These were all due to be completed earlier this year, before the COVID crisis. Since we appear to have cross-party support for my new motion, M-41, that I put on the notice paper this week, would the minister and the government agree to support a unanimous consent motion to proceed with M-41 immediately?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a short answer, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Homophobia and transphobia are examples of discrimination and absolutely important things not only to recognize but to fight against. That's why we are pleased to have voices such as the member of Parliament's voice to make sure that we make progress in making sure that everyone in Canada lives in safety and in dignity.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchette-Joncas.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I will share my time with the honourable member for LongueuilSaint-Hubert. As Quebec starts to gradually emerge from the general lockdown, the outlook for the recovery of the tourism industry remains bleak. The economy of several regions of Quebec depends on tourism to ensure stability and balance, which will be beneficial in the coming months. Is the Minister of Finance prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit beyond 16weeks to ensure a living wage for tourism workers?", "speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, as I said in English, we're working very hard to continue to be there for all Canadians, whether it's through the CERB or the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Please excuse me, I'm very tired. I'll continue in English. We're going to have news on this very soon, Madam Chair, but the point is that we want to make sure that all of these programs work well together, whether it's the wage subsidy or the CERB. We want to make sure that we incentivize work, but we still continue to be there for Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We read that the government wants to gradually replace the Canada emergency response benefit by using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. That's all well and good, but seasonal industries aren't entitled to it under the current criteria. If the minister is aware of the importance of the tourism industry in the economic cycle of our regions, he must commit to helping workers. If the clientele isn't there, the industry will simply no longer exist. We still need the Canada emergency response benefit. We simply need to make it an employment incentive so as not to hurt people who are lucky enough to be able to go back to work. The question is simple: will the government commit to renewing it?", "speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we are working hard to make sure we continue to support Canadians as we transition through economic recovery. We want to make sure that we support Canadians, but of course we don't want to disincentivize work. The CERB was created for a different purpose. We asked people to stay home to be safe and to self-isolate if they had symptoms. We want to make sure that as we ask people to go back to work, we don't disincentivize work, but the reality is that there won't be jobs there for everyone, and we need to continue to support everyone.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Mr.Trudel, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I join my colleague in extending my good wishes to you on Portugal's national day. Apart from the fact that it is probably the most beautiful riding in Quebec, the riding of LongueuilSaint-Hubert has surely been one of the hardest hit by the pandemic, both in terms of health and the economy. There are industries here, but also many service businesses, including bars, restaurants and theatres. But we aren't close to being able to go back and see a show by WajdiMouawad or FredPellerin, and that's a shame. We must work to calm the anxiety of these people. The arts sector was the first to stop its activities and will be the last to resume them. There is a lot of anxiety. The CERB ends on July4. Will the government extend the CERB, with an employment incentive?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I thank my colleague for his question and all the work he's doing in arts and culture. From the outset, we've been there to support our artists and arts organizations. We introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, for example, but also the emergency wage subsidy, which we made available to non-governmental organizations. To ensure that people who receive royalties aren't penalized under the Canada emergency response benefit, we have adapted it. We announced a $500million fund to specifically help the arts and culture sector. In fact, we understand very well that this sector has been severely affected by the current crisis. We've been there for our artists and artisans, and we will continue to be.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Perfect. Instead of giving a long preamble, I'll ask a very simple question: will the CERB be extended on July5?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel" }, { "content": "The hon. minister has the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member opposite that in July we will be there for Canadian workers.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "In my riding, a nice little restaurant called Crpe Caf on St-Charles Street in Longueuil has just closed its doors. It's final; it won't reopen. Another restaurant owner told me that he was going to reopen his restaurant, but he didn't know at what capacity. Would it be at 15%, 30%, 40%? No one knows. The speed at which the economy will recover is the big unknown. How many hours a week will it be able to offer its employees? Will it be 12hours, 15hours, 22hours? Will employees even want to return to work to put in 12hours a week? If the CERB isn't adjusted, nothing will happen. Will the government commit to extending the CERB and providing an employment incentive to get the economy moving again at full speed?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I know, of course, that the restaurant sector has been much affected. I have a great deal of empathy for what entrepreneurs and my colleague are going through in his riding. That's why we are currently helping our SMEs. We have money for economic development. The money is available through Canada Economic Development, or CED. If my colleague wants to work with me to provide support to restaurant owners and other restaurants in Longueuil, I'd be very happy to do so.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Bragdon.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, last month, on May 5, I asked the government how it plans to support the agriculture sector. The Liberals announced a $50-million food surplus purchase program as part of the agricultural aid package. Now, one month later, our farmers, who provide the food we need, are still waiting on funds to be delivered. The New Brunswick potato industry is sitting on a massive amount of last year's crop that, because of the pandemic, has no buyers. When will the Prime Minister and the government step up and deliver the support our farmers so desperately need?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, without question we want to continue to support farmers. My colleague Minister Bibeau has introduced hundreds of millions of dollars for farmers. In addition to that, we have provided relief and support for migrant workers, who are ensuring that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, when support for the agriculture sector was announced on May 4, our agriculture sector had been sounding the alarm for weeks that they needed help to continue to meet Canadians' food needs. It has been over a month since that announcement, and our farmers are still waiting for help. It is worth noting, Madam Chair, that vegetables like the potatoes in New Brunswick that I previously mentioned are perishable products. Our farmers do not have the luxury of time. Again, will the Prime Minister and this government make agriculture a priority and provide them with the support they desperately need right now?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, obviously we believe in the importance of our regions and our rural communities, and that's why we've always made sure that agriculture was at the core of many of the decisions throughout this pandemic. That's why our colleague Minister Bibeau, who is the Minister of Agriculture, has been there providing the right liquidity and the right support through this pandemic. Of course we want to make sure that we continue to partner with provinces and territories, because we need their help in this context to make sure that all together we show strong economic support for our farmers, who are going through tough times.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "On May 1 the Liberals introduced a sweeping firearms ban through an order in council that outlawed 1,500 firearms. Recent reports show that since then, more and more firearms are quietly being added to the list of banned firearms, including many common hunting rifles and shotguns. Madam Chair, our hunters, outfitters, dealers and sport shooters are some of the most vetted members of our society. Why does the Prime Minister insist on making criminals out of law-abiding firearms owners instead of dealing with the criminals we already have?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I am very proud of this government's record when it comes to ensuring that we take out of our communities those guns that have one objective only, and that is to kill other people. We will always stand by that record, and we will continue to take the necessary steps to keep our communities safe.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Liberals have said that to compensate firearms owners, they will implement a national buyback program. Instead of targeting law-abiding firearms owners and their legally purchased private property, wouldn't the estimated quarter of a billion dollars needed to buy back these firearms be better utilized right now in supporting our agricultural sector, the very people who grow our food and literally keep our land?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, of course we look forward to saying more about that, but of course we remain committed to taking those guns that have only one objective, and that is to kill people. The legislation we have introduced and the measures we have taken are designed to keep our communities safe, and of course we will do that. We will also continue to support farmers, introducing hundreds of millions of dollars in support because we know they are providing Canadians with affordable food.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Mr. Bragdon, you have time for a short question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, many sole proprietors have been hit extremely hard by this pandemic. My office has heard from many who have been in business for nearly 30 years and have submitted hundreds of HST returns, yet still cannot access the CEBA funding because they do not have a business chequing account, as a lot of small business owners use their personal chequing accounts to do their business. The Liberals offered aid to sole proprietors but attached unnecessary hurdles that prevent many of them from accessing the funds they desperately need to keep their businesses afloat. When will these unnecessary hurdles be removed so businesses can start to receive the relief they so desperately need?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "We will have a very short answer from the honourable minister.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We believe in the importance of making sure we're supporting our businesses, including sole proprietors. That is why our colleague, Minister Ng, the minister for small business, has been working on this and will continue to make sure we take the appropriate steps to recognize that. Meanwhile, people can definitely come to the regional development agencies if they don't have access to funding through banks, and that's a good way to make sure there is a backstop.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Please note that, pursuant to the Standing Order made on April20 and May26, the House has been recalled. Therefore, the committee will adjourn, and the House will begin sitting at 2:30p.m. The bells will be rung to call members, and a parade will begin the sitting. The meeting is adjourned.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" } ]

[ { "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 20thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. As a reminder to all members, in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not be connected to the video conference. I want to remind those who are participating by video conference that, when they talk, they must use the channel that corresponds to the language they are speaking in. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. We are moving on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on. We will now move on to document submissions. The honourable minister, Mr. Blair.", "speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2019 annual report on the RCMPs use of the law enforcement justification provisions. This report addresses the RCMP's use of specified provisions within the law enforcement justification regime, which is set out in subsections 25 to 25 of the Criminal Code. This report also documents the nature of the investigations in which these provisions were used.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)" }, { "content": "On tabling of documents, we have Minister Sajjan.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 32, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2018-19 progress report on Canada's national action plan for the implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security.", "speaker": "Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence)" }, { "content": "Now we'll go to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of a special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Members who are participating in the meeting in person are kindly asked to bring the signed certificate to the office once the petition has been presented. Presenting petitions, Ms. May.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to present two petitions. They both pertain to the protection of our natural world. One is an e-petition, and it relates to the threat to pollinators globally. We know that honey bees and other pollinators are essential to food production. The petitioners note that research from around the world points to a threat to pollinators, particularly from a class of pesticides known as neonicotinoids. The European Union has taken action on this. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to practise a precautionary principle and remove from use neonicotinoids in Canada to protect our pollinators. The second petition relates to the ongoing threat to the southern resident killer whales. These iconic whales are much beloved in SaanichGulf Islands, throughout coastal British Columbia and indeed across Canada. The petitioners are calling for more action to be taken as the population of southern resident killer whales continues to decline, more action for boat-free safety zones, more prohibitions around whale tourism to make sure that the whales are safe from those who are keen to watch them from too close a distance, and more of a credible enforcement regime to support these measures to keep the southern resident killer whale population in our waters and not on the list of species that have become extinct.", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Genuis.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, for over 10 years, members of Parliament from various parties have been trying to pass legislation to deal with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. Irwin Cotler, Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Senator Salma Ataullahjan and I have all proposed bills on this. The petitioners want the House to support Bill S-204. This is another bill that would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. I'm sure petitioners would want me to add that, given the urgency of this issue, perhaps the government could consider bringing forward a government bill on this issue, which would allow the process to move much faster.", "speaker": "Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise here today to present a petition from Canadian citizens in support of motion M-1, which was placed in this House by my colleague the member for New WestminsterBurnaby on the green new deal. These citizens point out that climate change has escalated into a global climate emergency and that Canada must act with ambition and urgency. They call on the government to support M-1, a made in Canada green new deal, to take bold and rapid action to adopt socially equitable climate action to tackle the climate emergency and address worsening socio-economic and racial inequalities at the same time while ending fossil fuel subsidies, closing offshore tax havens, and supporting workers impacted by the transition by creating well-paying, unionized jobs in the shift to a clean and renewable energy economy.", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Johns.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and privilege to table e-petition 2577, which was sponsored by Chris Alemany from Port Alberni and is supported by 5,183 petitioners. They're calling on the Government of Canada to work urgently across party lines and in partnership with provincial and territorial governments to implement a guaranteed, consistent, national and livable universal basic income system for all Canadians. The petition is very timely, coming almost one year to the day since the completion of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which also called on the government to establish a guaranteed annual livable income for all Canadians. Whether it's about providing a safety net to get through a global pandemic, the means to keep your children out of poverty at any time, or simply being able to afford safe housing or transportation, it's time for Canada to have this conversation.", "speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Manly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and a privilege to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of NanaimoLadysmith. People are concerned about gas fracking and the use of methane and the destruction that methane causes to our atmosphere and with climate change. They're calling on the government to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on the Wet'suwet'en territory, and by ordering the RCMP to dismantle their exclusion zone and to stand down. They also call on the government to schedule nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentswhich is something that we're happy to see has been happening and I commend the government for that effortand to prioritize the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.", "speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)" }, { "content": "Next is Mr. Lamoureux.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, like Canada, Guyana is part of the Commonwealth, and many constituents of Winnipeg North have raised the issue with regard to the presidential election back in March, when it was being called into question. There have been some very positive indications in recent days, but the petitioners are asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to be aware of what's taking place in Guyana, and as much as possible, to be advocates for democracy and make sure that we're being diligent in supporting what the people of Guyana want to see.", "speaker": "Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.)" }, { "content": "I just want to remind the honourable members, when presenting petitions, to be as concise as possible. I notice they're starting to stretch a bit and it's something we all tend to do. Now we'll go to Statements by Members. The first statement will be from Mr. Lefebvre.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID-19. I am proud of all my constituents, and all Canadians, including first responders, volunteers, health care and essential workers, local miners, the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families, and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff. I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks; Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer; Nobel Prize winner SNOLAB's work on ventilators, which earned a federal contract; Vale Canada's $1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID-19 health solutions; and many more. We are all in the same boat, but we will get out of it together.", "speaker": "Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Sudbury, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Dalton.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Pitt Meadows is one of Canada's most beautiful communities. It's tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain. Most of the area consists of farmland, golf courses, parks and conservation areas. It also has Pitt Lake, which is among the largest freshwater tidal lakes in the world. Pitt Meadows' history dates back thousands of years with Katzie First Nation. In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for today's bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries. It's hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nation's busiest general aviation airports. Last weekend the community came together to celebrate Pitt Meadows Day a little differently because of COVID. In a great show of community spirit, from their front yards and balconies, thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city. I am thankful to have raised my family here, taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community.", "speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Kelloway.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times. Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been, it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through. Whether it is someone like Glen Muise, who delivers iPads to seniors' homes so they can connect with loved ones, teachers who deliver meals to students in need, Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas, two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast, or Rose Fitzgerald, who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county, constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need. Mr. Chair, as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso. The people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia care deeply about one another. They know that as a community, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable people, and I cannot help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding. Thanks so much.", "speaker": "Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape BretonCanso, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Ms. Brub, go ahead.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash, whose commitment I commend, to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec. The Bloc is open to the idea, but we shouldn't wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action. There are already potential solutions for taking action. Commissions have been issuing reports for decades, and Ottawa has been tabling them. Last year alone, the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations. The federal government must work with indigenous peoples, Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces. Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP. Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures. Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the long-overdue reconciliation. Let's take action.", "speaker": "Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ)" }, { "content": "I give the floor to Mr.MacKinnon.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues, I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020. We know that, owing to the pandemic, graduation celebrations will be different this year, as students will be deprived of their prom, their graduation ceremony and, in some cases, their goodbyes to friends and teachers. I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant, LeCarrefour, Nicolas-Gatineau, de l'rablire, Collge Saint-Alexandre, Collge Nouvelles Frontires, Collge Saint-Joseph, Philemon-Wright and other regional schools, are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis. However, that takes nothing away from their accomplishment. So when they receive their diploma, here is what I will say to them: Surge ahead! The future belongs to you. Be ambitious, follow your dreams and, most importantly, continue to change the Outaouais and the world! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time.", "speaker": "Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Morantz.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre, which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg. This state-of-the-art addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott, Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce, who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011. The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community. I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council. The addictions crisis in Canada needs action. With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions, we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction. I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality. Addictions affect us all, and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution.", "speaker": "Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Jowhari.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill. Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty. I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services. I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which, upon receiving these donations, redoubled their efforts to serve their communities. Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation Long-Term Care Centre, Divine Favour Senior Homecare, the Community & Home Assistance to Seniors, the True Compassion Home Health centre, Blue Door, the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program, Yellow Brick House, Hill House Hospice, Community Living York South, and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill. The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament.", "speaker": "Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Madam Lalonde.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Usually, at this time of the year, I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans. However, we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year. I cannot express enough how, in these exceptional times, I have witnessed the strength, resilience and community spirit of our graduates. I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class. Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school, the cole secondaire catholique Batrice-Desloges, had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success. As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future. We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them. We will not fail. I thank the teachers, the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work. Congratulations to all graduates of 2020.", "speaker": "Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Vis.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives. For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely. The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit, most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection, even though Internet is an essential service. Those in underserved areas, including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, cannot work from home and their children cannot keep up with their classmates. For many of my indigenous constituents, Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies don't want to serve them. I, along with my colleagues, launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions. We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada. This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved.", "speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. McLeod.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada has been awarded its first-ever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme. Congratulations go to Lutsl K' Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation, with support from Deninu K'ue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area. It's 14,000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you'll find anywhere on earth. I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canada's $7.9-million commitment, along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year. The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large. Congratulations to Lutsl K'.", "speaker": "Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Falk.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Liberal government has tabled $87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study, debate and pass it. The allocated time is wholly inadequate. Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent. They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament. It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this government's spending. It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy. It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal government's programs fail to meet their intended goals. A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy. Canadians are owed better. Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting, parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do.", "speaker": "Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC)" }, { "content": "We now go to Mr. Godin.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Our planet is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. Our daily lives have been turned upside down. I am thinking of you, our seniors, valuable individuals who built our country. You have gone through a very restrictive confinement. You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families. Our students also had to adapt. Their school year was turned on its head. Our graduating class, especially, saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish. The future belongs to them. They must follow their dreams. I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things. We have all taken on our important responsibility, that of following the guidelines. The results have been most compelling in my riding. I want to say how proud I am to represent you here, in the Canadian Parliament. I thank each and everyone of you. You are helping PortneufJacques-Cartier flourish. You have shown resilience, creativity, innovation and solidarity. That is commendable. Together, we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger.", "speaker": "Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Gazan.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg, led by women and non-binary individuals, who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality. We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism. We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power. We will speak out against police violence. We will speak out against systemic racism. We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us, not abuse us. We will call out those who abuse their power. We will rise. We will rise. We will rise. To all the women and non-binary folks who are standing, I say, let's continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected. Our liberation is intertwined. Solidarity.", "speaker": "Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)" }, { "content": "Mrs.DeBellefeuille, go ahead.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID-19. However, the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister. First, he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition, while the economic recovery must be prepared. He is refusing to provide an economic update, even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic. He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers. The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave, and not after it. Finally, today, he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed. He is behaving as if he had a majority government. This is not a time for recklessness. Governing means anticipating. I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together.", "speaker": "Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Uppal.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic. I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods' Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors. Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and Dil-E-Punjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals. Sikh Youth Edmonton delivered free groceries to families, seniors and students. Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton. The Bhartiya Cultural Society Hindu temple provided free meals to anyone who needed them. Punjab Insurance and The Punjab chain of restaurants provided free meals in downtown Edmonton. The staff, nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy. I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength, resilience and compassion as we move forward together.", "speaker": "Hon. Tim Uppal (Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now proceed to Mr. Fonseca.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today is Portugal Day, celebrated both in Portugal and around the world by Portuguese. In Canada, June has been recognized as Portuguese Heritage Month. We're truly happy to recognize the great contributions made by Canadians of Portuguese descent. This year is a difficult one, though, for all of us, including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation. Our prayers and well wishes are with everyone. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times. Your warmth, hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally. As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family, I know this year will be a lot different from previous years. I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal, and please continue to support our local businesses. ", "speaker": "Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We now begin the period of questions for ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for sitting to substitute each other very safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister is doing everything to avoid being accountable to Canadians. He is refusing to table a budget, refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work. Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities, but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that. I hope the opposition parties will allow a vote and a debate in the House on this important bill.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister wants parliamentarians to vote on aspects of the government's spending. We want the Auditor General to be able to examine that government spending. Under the government, the Auditor General has had to do more with less, and her ability to conduct audits is being affected. The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits, despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending. I have a simple question. Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job, yes or no?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor General's office in 2018-19, and the equivalent of 38 full-time staff were added. We support the Auditor General, unlike the Conservative government, which fired 60 people from the Auditor General's office. We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon, and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "The Prime Minister is again engaged in revisionist history. He well knows that it was the Auditor General's office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies, which did not affect its ability to do the job. In fact, as the interim auditor general, John Wiersema, said, We would not have proposed if we didnt think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament. Only the government's refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor General's ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve, and we wonder why. This is the government that cannot explain where 20,000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars' worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone. They can't identify that. Then there is, of course, the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank, which has completed precisely zero projects. Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, talking of revisionist history, Stephen Harper's Conservatives cut $6.5 million from the Auditor General's budget and fired 60 staff. On the contrary, we worked with the Auditor General's office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new full-time staff. We will continue to demonstrate openness and transparency. We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament, whom the Conservatives, in their time in office, showed no respect for. We will continue to move forward in a way that has led, for example, to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians. The Conservatives don't seem to want that debate or vote.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position. The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did, so I understand why he likes to live in the past. In May, the interim auditor general said, Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. With our current resources, we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year. That's half the number of audits, despite a massive explosion in government spending. The Auditor General's office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done. Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor General's office, yes or no?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we very much look forward to working with the new Auditor General to ensure that her office has the ability to continue the important audits and transparency measures that are foundational to our institutions. Speaking of what is foundational to our institutions, this afternoon we're putting forward a bill that would help Canadians across the country, and we've proposed to debate and vote on that bill. It actually looks like the Conservatives and other opposition parties might not want this. They have been complaining about not having debates and votes in Parliament, and now they're proposing not to have them. That's a little head-scratching. We hope they're going to help Canadians.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "We will continue with Mr.Blanchet.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We may have a chance here to replace a problem with a good opportunity. This morning, we heard many groups and organizations that represent people with a disability express their concerns over the bill introduced by the government, which I feel is chocolate pudding containing cod liver oil. We agree with the chocolate pudding. We are favourable to helping people with a disability. People don't know the rules. They don't knowI am telling them nowthat a bill can be divided. It can be cut into parts and voted on in parts. The rest of the bill can be enhanced. I am saying to the Prime Minister that, if he presents the part on disabled individuals, it will be passed at the speed of light. He won't even see it happen. Is he prepared to divide the bill, so that we can work together to help people with a disability?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ)" }, { "content": "The bill that we are proposing this afternoon will certainly help people living with disabilities. We can always recognize that this is important, and every party should be open to it. We will also increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit from four-week intervals to two weeks. We will also expand the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses will have access to it. I am always willing to work with members of the opposition to ensure that we adopt these measures, all or some of the measures. We want to help Canadians. We look forward to debating and voting on this later today.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "It is a glorious day. I heard all or some of the measures. That means that we are not adopting them all at the same time and that the bill is being split. Can the Prime Minister confirm that he is in fact going to split his bill so that we can address the various components separately, since they have nothing to do with each other, and improve them, in keeping with our mandate as elected officials?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "Our goal on this side of the House, and it is shared by all members of the House, is to help Canadians during the pandemic. We have put forward a number of measures that will help Canadians in a tangible way. Yes, that includes Canadians living with disabilities, but it also includes businesses that cannot, but should be able to, access the wage subsidy. In addition, we are going to make the Canada emergency response benefit more flexible. I look forward to continuing the discussions", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchet has the floor.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "We almost had some clarity, but one swallow does not make a summer. Yes, there is a need for discussions on the Canada emergency response benefit. The government says that it wants to transform the program into something very coercive, without admitting that the lack of an employment incentive has essentially sabotaged another program, the wage subsidy. That deserves some thought. That is what we are elected to do. We do not need to spend eight months on this, we can fix it in a few hours. When the government says that we are going to have to vote on this, it means rubber stamping its bill. We have the right to debate it, to have discussions and to improve it. I watched the election on the night of October21. It was a beautiful night. It was more fun than a hockey game. People elected a minority government. Can the government admit that?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "We are not proposing only to vote on this bill this afternoon, we are proposing to debate it. It is the role and responsibility of all of us in the House to exchange ideas and to work together to help Canadians. That is exactly what we are proposing this afternoon. It is about helping people with disabilities, increasing the flexibility of the CERB, and expanding the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses have access to it. I look forward to debating this with my colleagues opposite.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchet, you have 43seconds left.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "That will be enough. I would be remiss if I allowed the Prime Minister to mislead people quite unintentionallyI say this in accordance with the Standing Orders. When we introduce a bill, we discuss it at second reading, we vote, we continue to discuss it and we send it to committee. All that can be done very quickly. However, we must be able to amend and improve this bill. That is how the normal Parliament works. The government doesn't like being in a minority situation. It behaves as if it were a majority government, but it is not. Can we follow the real procedures of Parliament, do a proper job, and then have a vote that is likely to suit the majority of members, not just the Prime Minister?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, my hon. colleague seems to completely forget that we are going through a pandemic. The COVID-19 crisis requires different actions on our part. That is why we provided the text of the bill to the opposition parties four days ago. We have been working with them for hours over the past three or four days to amend the bill, if they had amendments to propose. That is how we are taking action to help Canadians quickly during this crisis, and that is what we will continue to do.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Singh, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities, will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit. We hope to be able to debate it.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "As I said, Mr. Chair, discussions are ongoing on that, but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them, as we have been.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, a family that needs to buy groceries can't take those pretty words and buy groceries with them. We're asking the Prime Minister to extend the CERB for families in need. Will the Prime Minister do that, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to be there for Canadians in the right way. We are engaged with stakeholders, with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I can tell you what the right way is. Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he's an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened. He is now dependent on the CERB. He wants to go back to work, but there's no work. He sent an email saying he's faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he's frightened that if the CERB runs out, and it is planned to run out at the end of this month, then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet. Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, and as we have been saying from the beginning, we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it. The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon. We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities, to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB. He doesn't even want to debate those things. He doesn't even want to be voting on them. Will the NDP allow us to move forward on these important measures for Canadians?", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, let's talk about those measures. One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities. Now the government's plan is only going to help 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40%, or a significant portion, of people with disabilities, he wants to help none of them, because he's not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill. That's unfortunate. We're always happy to look at how we can do more. We have demonstrated from the beginning that we want to do more for Canadians. I look forward to working with the NDP. I am hoping those members change their minds and allow us to have an important debate this afternoon.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Let's talk about the 60% who aren't being helped. They are veterans living with disabilities, those who receive CPP and those who receive disability payments. Often it's the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who won't be helped with the plan the government is proposing. Will the government help all Canadians living with disabilities?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our proposal will help 100% of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit, including many veterans. The fact is that we are there to support the disability community. We are there to support Canadians with disabilities. Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation?", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Singh, we have 43 seconds for a question and an answer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, that's the exact problem with the Liberal proposal. It's a tax credit approach, which excludes the vast majority of Canadians living with disabilities. That is the wrong approach. We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB, if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities, we will move forward. Will the government do that?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I have said from the beginning, we look forward to continuing to work with the members opposite to keep moving forward to help Canadians. However, we need the opposition parties to actually choose to help Canadians and not to play political games. I hope we're going to be able to actually have a debate and a vote on this important legislation this afternoon.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "We're now going to take a short pause to allow staff to change up in a safe way respecting COVID-19 procedure. The floor now goes to Mr. Rayes.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, can the Prime Minister tell us whether we will have an economic update by the end of June?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. It is of course very important to be transparent. When the situation is stable, we will have", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)" }, { "content": "Once again, the floor goes to Mr.Rayes.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, most of the provinces in Canada are working on tabling economic updates by the end of June. Why is the Liberal government unable to do so as well?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "I understand the importance of transparency and that is why we are trying every day to explain our investments to Canadians and to continue to be transparent with them.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "The Liberal government announced hundreds of billions of dollars in new spending during the pandemic, but it still refuses to provide an economic update in order to be transparent with Canadians. In times of crisis, monitoring the situation is more important than ever. I repeat my question: why does this government not want to table an economic update by the end of June, when the provinces are doing so?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "Every day, we explain the economic situation, our investments, the changes we are making, and our programs to improve the situation of Canadians during the pandemic. We will continue our approach to being transparent.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself does not understand why the federal government cannot deliver an economic update when the provinces can. Why are the government and the minister defying the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is an independent officer and is requesting an economic update?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "We will continue with our approach, which is one of transparency. We know that it's very difficult to make projections given the very dynamic nature of the situation. We think our approach of providing information daily is appropriate and we will continue to be transparent about our investments.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "That is incredible. When we listen to the minister and the Prime Minister talk, you would think we were in the pesky terrible twos phase that children go through, when they keep saying no, no, no. I find it funny that the provinces are able to table an economic update in a crisis situation. The opposition parties are asking for it, as are experts and officials. When the time comes for the government to listen to the scientists, it has no problem doing so. However, if people do not think like the government, it ignores them. The provinces are doing it, the opposition parties are calling for it and the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. Why will the Minister of Finance not table an economic update so that all members of Parliament can do their verification work?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "I will continue to provide daily information on our measures and investments. Projections are clearly very difficult to make. However, when the situation is more stable, we will be able to provide more information to Canadians. In the meantime, we will be adapting to the situation on a daily basis and making sure that we have the information we need to make our decisions and to make sure that Canadians understand our situation.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 45seconds left.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, one month ago, the Prime Minister announced with great fanfare that the eligibility criteria for the $40,000emergency loans for businesses would be more flexible to help self-employed entrepreneurs and businesses that pay themselves dividends to have access to them. However, as of todayit has been four weeks since that announcementbusinesses are still banging their heads on the doors of their financial institutions. They do not have access to the information because it is not available on official websites. In addition, even senior officials confirmed to me during a technical call on June2, last Tuesday, that this information would not be available for several weeks. Can the Minister of Finance, who says he wants to act quickly to help our businesses, explain why, after four weeks, it is still not possible to get the information the Prime Minister promised us from his doorstep?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have been listening and responding to small businesses and entrepreneurs across the country. In fact, we have even announced the expansion of the program's eligibility criteria to include many owner-managed small businesses with payrolls of less than$20,000. The new criteria have forced financial institutions to adapt to be able to provide this program to new applicants. We are working around the clock to ensure that we are able to promptly provide small businesses across the country with the assistance they need.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance)" }, { "content": "We will now proceed to Mr. Allison.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's unemployment rate stands at 13.7%. That's the highest it's been in almost four decades. Many industries, like travel, hospitality and tourism, are getting crushed. We rely on a lot of hospitality and tourism in my riding of Niagara West. Can the government tell us what their plans are to help the travel, hospitality and tourism industry that so many of my constituents depend on?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison (Niagara West, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his important question. I had a good conversation with the mayor of Niagara Falls recently, and we believe in the importance of the tourism sector. That's exactly why we've extended the wage subsidy until the end of August. There is the CEBA loan, the $40,000 loan. There is also spending through FedDev in my colleague's region. If he has clear, specific projects in the tourism sector that he needs help with, I would ask that he please come and see me and have a conversation.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the message from the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Perrin Beatty, and also other industries, is that we need a clear and coherent plan from this government because there's a whole hodgepodge of regulations and confusion about what's going to happen through the strategy. What I've told the government is that we need a strategy to reflect local conditions that is consistent and has a clear timeline so that businesses can begin to open safely and with confidence. What is the government doing to make this happen?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we absolutely agree. It is important for businesses to have an understanding of the programs that we've put in place. We have been consulting with businesses on the appropriate way to extend the wage subsidy so that we can continue to support businesses as they turn towards a safe restart. We've also looked very carefully at how we can ensure that the programs that we've put forward", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Allison.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has come way short of meeting the Canadian demand for personal protective equipment. Some equipment procured from overseas has been substandard and couldn't be used. Because of the shortage, in my riding of Niagara West, dentists have to pay up to 10 times the amount for an N95 mask. Compared to early March, when will the government finally begin to produce enough PPE in Canada to meet Canadian demand?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. We have mobilized over 700 Canadian companies to help them retool and rescale their efforts to make more personal protective equipment in Canada as part of a made-in-Canada initiative. We're going to continue to work with industry to build up domestic capacity.", "speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)" }, { "content": "Global News is reporting that Canada is struggling to secure a reliable source of PPE. What's the evidence of this? We know that the government procured 10 million substandard N95 masks that couldn't be used. Masks were sent back to suppliers for having flaws. We received mouldy swabs to be used in COVID-19 tests. Planes are arriving empty that should have been filled with PPE, and we received less than 5% of our total order of gloves. It's clear that Canada needs to rely on Canada for PPE. When will this government finally begin to take PPE equipment issues seriously and make enough in Canada to meet demands by Canadians?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the honourable member's questions were tainted with inaccuracies. Regarding the flights that returned from China without federal cargo, Air Canada did reimburse the federal government for that amount. In addition, with regard to the N95 masks that were referenced, the Government of Canada will not pay for masks that it does not use. Furthermore, as my colleague Minister Bains just stated, we are mobilizing and retooling the domestic industry. Over half of the face shields that we have received were produced in Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)" }, { "content": "At a time when the Prime Minister has ordered Canadians to stay home and businesses to remain closed, at a time when Canadians have had to say goodbye to their relatives over Skype, at a time when Canadians are not allowed to get married, at a time when Canadians are being fined for taking their kids to the park, at a time when restaurants are being fined $800 for allowing customers to eat outside and not being socially distanced, in these times, the Prime Minister's son attended a mass gathering with thousands of people while not socially distancing. Mr. Chair, why is it that there seems to be one set of rules in this country for some people but a different set for the Prime Minister? Why the double standard?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as the member knows, this country has been gripped with the need to stand up with one another to fight the experience of racism that so many Canadians live with and that so many of our American cousins live with. As the member knows, local public health sets advice for regions that he specified, and I would encourage all Canadians to check with local public health advice before they resume activities.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)" }, { "content": "Now we'll go to Mr. Chiu.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Many Canadian veterans are noticing that medical providers are increasing their costs. Everything is more expensive these days, including medicine, etc. It can take upwards of a year for Veterans Affairs to adjust their rate scale to compensate, and they do not allow for retroactive reimbursement. What are the government's actions to alleviate this hardship for our men and women who stood guard for this country, our veterans?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu (StevestonRichmond East, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the fact is that when we inherited the government, Veterans Affairs needed a lot of support from government. In fact, at that time, we invested $10 billion to make sure that Veterans Affairs was put in place and that we could provide the appropriate supports for veterans, like the pension for life, the centre of excellence on PTSD and the chronic pain centre of excellence. All of these things are so important. We have to realize that with government previously", "speaker": "Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs)" }, { "content": "We'll now go back to Mr. Chiu.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister, for answeringor respondingto my question, although that really did not provide an answer, in my humble opinion. Part of the side effect of spending hundreds of millions of dollars is inflation. My constituents in StevestonRichmond East are overwhelmingly finding this government's support for seniors inadequate. The opposition has put forward clear proposals, such as a one-time tax-free withdrawal being allowed for an RRSP or a RRIF. So far, the government has not taken any action on this. Why is the government ignoring suggestions to help Canadian seniors?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I want seniors to know that they are not alone. To help preserve their registered retirement income fund assets, we are reducing minimum withdrawals by 25% for 2020. We're also providing direct financial support so that seniors can get the help they need now. As the market is volatile during this time, we continue to look at all ways that we can best help seniors during this difficult time.", "speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Hong Kong government has arrested 9,000 civilians just in the past year. This is equivalent to the arrest of 42,000 people, proportional to Canada's population. It is anticipated that more unjust incarcerations will occur as Beijing imposes the national security law in Hong Kong. Has our government started preparing a list of names for Magnitsky-style sanctions, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as we have said, we and our allies are deeply concerned with Beijing's decision to impose a national security law on Hong Kong. With hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in its stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. The proposed law would also undermine the one country, two systems framework.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport)" }, { "content": "I thank the minister for responding. Again, however, words are not enough. It's time for action, because the Chinese embassy has said, in response to Canada's expressed concern, that they deplore, reject and condemn our response and our concerns thus far. What are the conditions for this government using Magnitsky sanctions should China continue to incarcerate Canadians and jeopardize the human rights of its citizens?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been very clear. We will continue to encourage all parties to engage in peaceful and meaningful dialogue to address the legitimate concerns expressed by the Hong Kong population. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chiu, we have about 22 seconds, so you have time for a very quick question and hopefully a very quick answer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Okay, here's a quick question. The Communist Chinese government has lied about COVID-19. They have issued statements against Canada and they have yet to release the two Canadians being held hostage. My constituents are concerned over this. When will this government listen to Canadians and call for a stronger, more effective and truly independent international investigation into COVID-19's origin?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "The honourable minister has 22 seconds or less, please.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we are dealing with a global pandemic, COVID-19. It is critically important that all countries in the world work together in a transparent, open and respectful manner so that we understand what is going on and how we can bring it to an end as quickly as possible.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "The next question will come from Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, if the government orders someone who has been exposed to a confirmed COVID case into a 14-day quarantine, why won't the government allow them to take an antibody test to lift the quarantine so they can go back to work?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (RenfrewNipissingPembroke, CPC)" }, { "content": "As the member opposite may or may not know, testing strategies are determined by provinces and territories. Furthermore, the testing of a particular person has to be done at the right point in time", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, there have already been some tests that have been approved. My friend and colleague here, Colin Carrie, from the constituency of Oshawa, has a constituent who has a test. It's 90% accurate and it's being sold to the United States and other countries. Why won't they provide a DIN number to it so that Canadians have access to it as well, regardless of which province or territory they live in?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I think the member is talking about two separate things. Any test kit that would be approved by Health Canada would be accessible to wherever that company chose to market that test kit. Furthermore, it's really important that test kits that are approved by Health Canada be accurate and have been tested with rigour with regard to their ability to provide credible and accurate information to the people who are using that test.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the test has proven to have an accuracy rate of 90% in identifying whether or not an individual has antibodies. Why won't she allow it to be used here?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I am happy to follow up with the member opposite's office when she is able to provide me with the name of the company. As you can imagine, there are many vendors trying to", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "How long will it take for an antibody test to be approved by this government once you have the name of the company and the test and the evidence in front of you?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Before we go to the honourable minister, I just want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair and not directly. Go ahead, Minister.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "We have an expedited process that could be completed in as little as five to seven days, depending on the accuracy of the test and the information supplied by the vendor.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, will Health Canada use reputable data from other countries to speed their determinations about antibody effectiveness, or just continue to withhold access?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Canadians expect us, at Health Canada, to ensure the accuracy and the safety of all equipment approved for use in Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chairman, if the minister can approve tests and studies within five days, why is it taking over 30, over 60, or over 90 days to approve an antibody test that exists?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "I appreciate the member opposite's interest in urgent and quick approvals; however, sometimes, depending on the company, there may be further questions and further tests that need to be run to ensure the accuracy or safety of that equipment. Should she wish me to check into the process for a particular", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We will go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Have officials provided the government with a target for a daily antibody test to complete an initial survey or the initial phase of a study?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is talking about the work of the immunity task force, which is, as you know, a group of scientists who have been funded by the Government of Canada", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We'll go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, would the minister please provide the names of the people on the task force to which she just referred?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I will forward those names to the office of the member opposite.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "I hope that will be within the next two days or so, and not wait until after the crisis has passed, Mr. Chairman. Why isn't the Prime Minister showing as much fervour for antibody testing as he is for getting a vaccine on the market?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I reject the premise of that question. In fact, the Prime Minister has shown fervour for all aspects of dealing with the coronavirus from the very inception of the virus on the world stage. To allege otherwise is quite disingenuous.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We'll go on to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "When will the government give the Auditor General the funds she needs to do her job?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC)" }, { "content": "First, Mr. Chair, I would like to offer my congratulations to the new Auditor General for her appointment. On behalf of the government, I would also like to offer her our full support and collaboration", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage)" }, { "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "I share the minister's wish to congratulate the new Auditor General on her position. I will now ask him again when he will give her the funds she needs to do her job.", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, her role is essential to our democracy. We are eager to work with her. She's more than welcome to share her concerns directly with the government. I can assure her that my", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I didn't ask him if he would like to work with the Auditor General. I asked him if he will give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job.", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our government has added 38 permanent staff positions to her office, while the Conservative government, under their leadership, cut the funding for more than 60", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "We'll move on to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, through you, I caution the minister to not mislead this House. If he will look at the committee transcripts of the time, he will know that it was the Auditor General's decision to reduce their own budget. The Conservatives did not cut positions. That is a matter of fact. The point is that the Auditor General now does not have the money to do her job. She has cut performance audits and she has stopped work on performance audits. When will this government give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "With us, it was 38 new positions, Mr. Chair. With them, it was 60 positions fewer.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has drastically expanded its spending and is avoiding accountability in every way it can. The finance committee yesterday, with the support of Liberal backbench MPs who are on that committee, unanimously passed a motion to fund the Auditor General in full so that her office can do her job. If this minister will not listen to me, will he at least listen to his own backbenchers?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our government is fully committed to supporting the important and ongoing work of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament. If the Auditor General identifies the need for additional resources, we will work with the Office of the Auditor General to ensure that they have all the resources they need to continue fulfilling their mandate efficiently and effectively.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Auditor General has consistently, since 2018, told this government that the office doesn't have enough funds. It's not a mystery. The Auditor General has told the public accounts committee that it cannot do its job. It's the first time in history that the Auditor General has had to tell public accounts that they don't have the resources to do their job. It's not a matter of if the Auditor General needs more funds. The Auditor General couldn't be more clear. When will this government actually do the right thing and fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, maybe I'm not making myself clear in English. I will switch to my native tongue, French, in case it becomes clearer. If the Auditor General identifies a need for additional resources, we will work with her to ensure that her office can continue to deliver its mandate efficiently and effectively. In addition, our government worked with the Auditor General to increase funding in 2018-09. With this increase, the office was able to add the equivalent of 38new full-time staff to its team. That's 38more employees", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "The floor goes to Mr.Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this isn't an if situation. The Auditor General has already told this government that her office does not have funds. This has been ongoing since 2018. I would ask the minister to please stop with the platitudes and actually just say yes or no. Will the government give the Auditor General the money that the Auditor General has already asked for?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we have already increased the budget of the Office of the Auditor General in the 2018-19 period.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Before we continue, we're going to suspend for a second to bring in the next chair.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "There's a point of order.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.))" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I know that no member would knowingly mislead the House. No member wants to do that. It's always customary to give members a chance to correct the record, so I call upon the minister to do so now, and perhaps even the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister misled the House in his response to a question. I have here the transcripts of the public accounts committee, and they will confirm that the", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "This is beginning to sound a bit like debate. We will proceed. Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. First, I would like to take this opportunity to say hi from Portugal. I would also like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague and friend, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean. Obrigado. While Quebec estimates its additional health care costs related to COVID-19 at $3billion, Ottawa is transferring around $115million, which is not even4%. Does the government recognize that this is clearly insufficient?", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, we invested an initial $500 million in transfers to the provinces and territories to manage the extreme pressure put on health care systems as a result of their supporting people living with COVID and in preventing COVID. We want to thank the provinces and territories for their work, and as the member opposite knows, we will continue to be there for the provinces and territories. This is a significant transfer, and we think", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, the minister says that this is a substantial transfer. Yes, it is a lot of money. The government is giving about $115million to Quebec, but that is not even 4%of what is being requested. Does the minister recognize that much more is needed?", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie" }, { "content": "We have been working with the provinces and territories from the beginning to respond to the crisis. We have increased health care transfers, provided medical protective equipment and responded to all requests for assistance. We have been able to make so much progress in the fight against COVID-19 precisely because of this co-operation. Stirring up an imaginary quarrel between the federal government and Quebec", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, it isn't about squabbling, it's about needs. The share that the federal government is giving isn't enough. We should act now, before we see a possible second wave. What we're seeing today are the results of massive disinvestment by the federal government in health care. This isn't good enough. The government must act quickly. Can the government commit to better funding to the health care sector and to organizing a meeting with Quebec and the provinces on this exact topic, in September at the latest? We can't afford to wait.", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie" }, { "content": "The hon. minister's response will have to be brief.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, with respect to the transfers to provinces and territories, the member opposite knows that our government, in our last mandate, significantly increased transfers to the provinces and territories for health services, including mental health and home care services. In fact, the funding we're providing is in addition to the $40 billion that was transferred", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. Tudo bem? Tudo bom? Today in La Presse, we learned that the government has extended its military presence in long-term care homes. Can the minister confirm this information, and can he also confirm that the presence of these 500soldiers is indeed in response to a request from the Government of Quebec?", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, let me assure the member that when Quebec made a request for assistance at the beginning of April, we answered the call. When they asked for an extension of that, we said we would continue to provide that assistance. I had a conversation today with Minister Guilbault, my counterpart in Quebec, and we have renewed our commitment to continuing to provide assistance. That assistance can take additional forms and can include involving the Canadian Red Cross, but we remain committed to providing the assistance that Quebec needs.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "If I understand correctly, negotiations are still under way with the Government of Quebec, even though it needs these soldiers. The mission ends Friday. This isn't really the time to negotiate anymore. We have to make sure that the military will stay in our long-term care homes as long as we need their services in Quebec, and until new attendants have been trained. Can the minister confirm that the mission will indeed be extended?", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe" }, { "content": "I'd like to assure this House that we have assured Quebec that the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to provide support until such time as other trained professional people are able to do that job. We're working very hard with the Province of Quebec. We're working with the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross. We will be there for Quebeckers because they need our help, and as long as they need our help, we'll be there to support them.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "This isn't the time to play cat-and-mouse. The only thing we have to do is to give the Government of Quebec what it's asking for. Quebec pays 23%of the army's budget, so Quebeckers are entitled to this support. Quebec has more than 5,000deaths from COVID-19, 90%of which have been in seniors' residences or long-term care homes. The military's presence is vital because they play an extraordinary and essential role. Will the minister commit to extending the mission now and putting an end to this uncertainty? It's certainly bad for both the military and the health care workers, who rely on this support.", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe" }, { "content": "The hon. minister has 10seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Again, Madam Chair, let me be very clear. We have made a commitment to the Province of Quebec that we will continue to provide that support until the middle of September, exactly as they have requested, but we are also working to ensure that we have an sustainable, effective solution to the request that Quebec has made, so we're working with the Province of Quebec, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross to ensure the help that is needed is there.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "We will go now to Bryan May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure and an honour to be with you all today. I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member of Parliament for Scarborough North. Madam Chair, COVID-19 continues to create challenges for all Canadians, including those with disabilities, and exacerbates those experienced by Canadians with disabilities. As we mark the end of National AccessAbility Week, I would like to remind our colleagues that our commitment to making Canada more inclusive and equitable is ongoing, including our passing of the Accessible Canada Act. Would the minister inform the House about the government's plans to support Canadians with disabilities who are experiencing increased costs due to COVID-19?", "speaker": "Mr. Bryan May (Cambridge, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, last week was the first National AccessAbility Week that was legislated under the historic Accessible Canada Act, and I thank every party in this House for the consent they gave to that legislation. I'm hoping we have the same spirit of camaraderie for people with disabilities this afternoon. Since the beginning, Madam Chair, we have taken a disability inclusion approach on how we support people with disabilities in this time of pandemic, including the establishment of our COVID-19 disability advisory group, which has given us invaluable advice. I thank them so much for their contributions to our efforts. Last week we announced a suite of measures to support people with disabilities that complement existing measures that are in place. This includes a one-time payment of $600 to 1.25 million citizens with disabilities, which again is the subject matter of the legislation this afternoon, as well as a $15-million investment in an accessible workplace initiative that will ensure, moving forward.... We know that as we move back into employment situations it will be very tough for people with disabilities. Finally, there are five really exciting accessible technology initiatives, including working on point-of-sale terminals for Canadians who are blind or visually impaired.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)" }, { "content": "You may have a very short question, Mr. May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her department for all the work they are doing to ensure that accessibility is at the forefront of everybody's mind through this crisis.", "speaker": "Mr. Bryan May" }, { "content": "Mr. Chen is next.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as humanity battles COVID-19, we are confronted by the stark realities of another disease. On May 25, George Floyd fell unconscious and died as a police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes. This all happened after the 46-year-old black man was handcuffed and put in a position where he could do no harm. In Canada, we have come a long way since Viola Desmond, yet there is much more to do. Anti-black racism is institutionalized, hidden under dominant narratives of a free and multicultural society. Hatred has no boundaries, whether it is against black communities or is anti-Asian sentiment fuelled by COVID-19. The question always is this: Who is next? We must all stand up together against hatred and for justice and reconciliation, to dismantle systems of oppression that long remained unquestioned. Recent data from Statistics Canada shows that Canada is failing black youth, creating the conditions that push them into the justice system. To the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, my question is this: What is the government doing to address the unique challenges faced by black youth?", "speaker": "Mr. Shaun Chen (Scarborough North, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the member for Scarborough North is absolutely correct. We must all do what we can to stand up against hatred and injustice. We often say that today's youth are not only the leaders of tomorrow but the leaders of today, so we need to equip them for success by investing in youth. According to the 2016 census, black Canadians accounted for 1.2 million people, and more than a quarter of that population is under the age of 15. Socio-economic gaps, such as in employment and education, exist between black and non-black youth. We need to do better. Our government has brought forward youth so they can inform the decisions we make. We have Canada's first youth policy, and it was created by youth for youth to ensure that all young people are equipped to live healthy and fulfilling lives, and are empowered to create positive change for themselves and their communities. Our government launched the community support for black Canadian youth program, which supported 56 projects geared to address the unique challenges faced by black Canadian youth through the development of leadership skills and civic engagement, while empowering them through the promotion of black history, culture and identity. To address the challenges of the pandemic, our government has implemented a suite of measures designed to help youth and students, including with employment and service opportunities. My office is working with community organizations who serve black youth to make sure they too are both aware of and benefiting from these measures.", "speaker": "Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth)" }, { "content": "Ms. Mathyssen is next.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be splitting my time with the member for TimminsJames Bay. Schools in many provinces remain closed, and many child care providers want to reopen. They must reduce their capacity due to COVID-19. Now more than ever we need universal, publicly funded child care to restart the economy. Will the government bring in legislation that would enshrine into law access to, and federal funding for, quality affordable child care?", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (LondonFanshawe, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we are, of course, committed to investments in child care. We have constantly worked with provinces and territories to ensure that we provide the supports they need to provide quality, affordable and accessible child care. Since 2015, we have created over 40,000 child care spaces. We are committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)" }, { "content": "The government doesn't seem to understand that this is not universal child care. During COVID-19, women have lost the majority of jobs, and they have taken on the majority of additional child care responsibilities. Canadian women want and need to return to work, but this government doesn't understand that without affordable child care, they simply cannot re-enter the workforce. For 26 years, Liberal governments have been promising, but failing to deliver, a universal child care program. Parents are paying the price. How much longer do parents have to wait?", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for the important question. Since 2015, we have created 40,000 affordable, accessible, quality child care spaces across the country. We are on track to continue to invest $7.5 billion over 11 years to create additional child care spaces and support provinces and territories. We're constantly in touch with our counterparts to work to strengthen that sector. We are also keeping our promise and our commitment to create an additional 250,000 spaces. We will be there for parents as they get back to work, and we will continue to reinforce the early learning and child care sector.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen" }, { "content": "You have time for a very short question, Ms. Mathyssen.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Without universal child care, we are crippling our economy. We are not providing an affordable system, and this stops women from returning to work. Instead of helping parents return to work, the government is now bringing forward legislation that's penalizing them. Why is the government looking to sentence mothers and fathers to jail time and large fines when they cannot find the child care that", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen" }, { "content": "The honourable minister has time for a short answer.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We are committed to the early learning and child care sector. We will move forward with the creation of an early learning and child care secretariat. We will continue to invest in this sector. We recognize its importance.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen" }, { "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Angus.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an honour to be here, and I'm hoping that you and your family stay safe at this time. COVID has shaken up Canada's middle class, so my question is for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity. This morning I spoke with a businesswoman. She runs her own business, a travel agency, but because of COVID she has been wiped out. She's on CERB, and it's ticking down. There's no work to go back to, so in four weeks she hits the economic wall. Will the minister fight for an extension of CERB so this woman can stay in the middle class?", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we know how worried Canadians are as they see their final four-week period of the CERB approaching, and we're working very hard to ensure that the CERB continues to serve an important purpose as we move into economic recovery. I'll note that when we created the CERB, there was a different purpose in mind. We were asking people to stay home. Now we're asking people to go back to work if it's safe for them to do so. We're going to make sure that the wage subsidy and the CERB complement each other. In fact, the measures in today's legislation will help us to get the flexibility to be able to do just that.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We did give you a little more time. We will go to Mr. Angus.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. What I've seen with their legislation today is that they're talking about jailing people. We need a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity in a time of middle-class disparity, and she has talked about middle-class criminality. Let's talk about this again, about people going back to work. I spoke with a 51-year-old bartender. He's a professional; this is his job. There is no job to go back to. Will the minister assure us that this man will be able to stay in the middle class because the CERB will still be there in July, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus" }, { "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we've been helping Canadians by putting programs in place. We will continue to support families during the crisis, and afterwards as well.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier" }, { "content": "Mr. Angus, you have time for a very short comment or question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "The issue here is that when COVID hit, millions of Canadians were living in such precarious working conditions that they didn't even have enough money to pay their rent. That is a damning indictment. In four weeks, those Canadians are going to hit the economic wall again. What I need to know from the minister, and what Canadians need to know, is whether she will commit, yes or no, that the CERB will be there for those who have no work to go back to.", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have been helping families with a supplement to the Canada child benefit. We have put in place the Canada emergency response benefit. We will continue to find ways to support Canadian families during this crisis.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cooper.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It was all the way back on March 25 that the Minister of Finance stated that help for the energy sector was coming within hours, possibly days. Well, as it turns out, it hasn't been hours. It hasn't been days. It hasn't even been weeks. Indeed, months later, help has yet to arrive. Seventy-seven days after the minister made that statement, not a single energy company has received financing under EDC, the BDC, or the LEEFF program. As the energy sector faces an unprecedented liquidity crisis, how can this government possibly justify such a delay?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper (St. AlbertEdmonton, CPC)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, weeks ago we opened applications through the business credit availability program to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We've also opened applications for measures that will be available to our larger players through our LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry. We will continue to support workers, and we will continue to do so to get through this unprecedented challenge.", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, on June 2, the vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers said, The entire industry is frustrated with the delay that we are facing. The Saskatchewan Minister of Energy and Resources has spoken about a gaping hole that exists in terms of support for the energy sector. The gaping hole that I'm speaking of is the EDC and BDC programs that this government has failed to deliver upon. Indeed, it was on April 17 that those programs were announced, and 54 days later, not only has not a single energy company received financing, but guess what? They can't even apply, and the eligibility criteria have yet to be finalized after 54 days. If that is not failing to deliver for the energy sector, what is?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Business Council of Alberta has said that the LEEFF program is a positive development showing that the federal government recognizes the needs and value of Canada's large corporations. We agree. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through two crises: the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war initiated by Russia and Saudi Arabia. That's why, weeks ago, we opened applications for liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We also announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry to make sure these programs are effective.", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, contrary to the representations of the minister, neither the EDC program nor BDC programs are accepting applications. Just yesterday officials from both BDC and EDC were before the finance committee, where I posed precisely those questions to them. We know, Madam Chair, that the application process isn't up and running and that eligibility criteria remain to be determined, but I guess this government has some good news for the energy sector after 77 days. Now energy sector companies can go on the BDC website and apply for email updates. Is that the kind of help the Minister of Finance had in mind after 77 days: email updates instead of real relief for the energy sector?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Alberta finance minister, Travis Toews, said in a LEEFF announcement that in combination with earlier measures for small and medium-sized companies, it represented an expression of confidence in our industries. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through these two crisesas I said, the impact of COVID, and then on top of that, the effect of a global price war. We opened up applications for liquidity measures as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers asked. Their top five asks were all liquidity. We supported small and medium-sized players essential to the supply chain, who make up 85% of the jobs in that sector, and then we announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry and", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan" }, { "content": "I now have to interrupt for a few moments to allow our technicians to change places. With that done, Monsieur Martel, you may now go ahead..", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, there has recently been positive progress in AndrGauthier's case, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Prime Minister for their co-operation in this matter. However, Mr.Gauthier is currently on his own in the United Arab Emirates, without a passport, waiting to settle civil lawsuits. What services does the minister intend to provide to help him, and when does he plan to repatriate AndrGauthier to Canada?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, in all cases similar to Mr.Gauthier's, the Government of Canada, through its consular services, tries to do the best it can under the circumstances. This file is still active.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "The House recognized on February18, 2020, that the 15weeks of sickness benefits provided by employment insurance were insufficient. Citizens who became ill before March15 are now without help. They are being denied the CERB because they didn't lose their jobs because of COVID-19. They are being denied EI regular benefits because they are unable to work. In addition, some citizens are waiting for surgery, which is being delayed because of COVID-19. Is the government letting these people down?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "No, MadamChair, that's absolutely not the case. Of course, we understand that people who are no longer receiving EI benefits should have access to the CERB. We have committed to extending the emergency sickness benefit to 26weeks. We're working with everyone here to make that happen. We're taking into account the needs and circumstances of all citizens in our efforts to help Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "I've called on the Minister of Economic Development several times to be more flexible in establishing these programs, so that they are better adapted to the realities of the regions. Recently, it was the SMEs in Montreal that were monopolizing the funds earmarked for the regions. When will the Liberal government listen to the needs of regions like SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "I thank my colleague for the opportunity to announce the good news that was mentioned on Radio-Canada this morning, namely, $71million more for the regions of Quebec. Of course, we're here for the regions. I will be happy to work with my colleague to ensure that the CFDC in his region can support businesses. We have to support businesses in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean and across the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "I think that's a canned speech. According to a survey conducted by the Universit de Trois-Rivires in Quebec, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is apparently the most economically affected by COVID-19. We have many projects, but they depend on the government's leadership to be carried out. Our region has forestry, the aluminum sector, GNL Qubec, tourism, the Port of Saguenay, Davie Canada, a military base and a tax centre. It's all here. We know we'll have to get the economy moving again soon. When will the government act to help our region?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "Every day, we act to help my colleague's region. I've had good conversations with Promotion Saguenay. I've also spoken several times with various stakeholders in my colleague's beautiful region. We will always be there for them. I'd like to tell my colleague that there will be other announcements to support the economic development of the beautiful region of SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. I will be happy to work with him to achieve good results.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Sustainable forestry development is at the heart of the economic development of Canada and for SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. Canadians have reason to be proud of the use of the boreal forest in the fight against climate change. Currently, our innovative forest industry is experiencing many problems, and on top of that, there is the COVID-19 crisis. Who will defend our forestry workers?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "Of course, we believe in the importance of regional economic development. That's why we're always there to defend our forestry workers. I will also be pleased to work with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is very familiar with the matter and who knows the challenges faced by the various businesses in the forestry sector, as well as the employees. We will always be there to support employees and create more jobs across Quebec and the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota is next. Go ahead, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. We continue to see significant gaps in the Liberals' programs. There are still people who are falling through the cracks and being left behind. We are hearing from women who are pregnant or who have just given birth and are being left out or told to go back to work. When will this government stop letting Canadians down?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC)" }, { "content": "We know that there are many situations of Canadians who are about to or are just going on maternity or parental benefits who might not have access to their EI benefits due to not having accumulated enough time for COVID reasons. We're working very hard to make sure, as we did for fish harvesters, that we support all Canadians in these situations. I look forward to advising Canadians of our approach on this very soon.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, that simply isn't good enough. This is something that has been brought to the government's attention for months now, and still nothing has been done. These families deserve answers now. Had the government conducted a GBA+ analysis, they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women. Why wasn't a GBA+ conducted?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls. We are working hard to ensure that everyone has the supports they need. As we move forward, we are, as I said earlier, taking into consideration improvements to the EI system, the wage subsidy and the future of CERB. All these play together as we work to provide a comprehensive forward-looking support package for Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA+? Why was it not done?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB. I can tell you that women are benefiting significantly from this benefit.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, it is a simple question, and I will ask again. Why was GBA+ analysis not conducted for the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way, from the beginning, as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, if that's the case, then how did you miss these gaps?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we didn't miss gaps. We, from the beginning, looked to support as many people as possible. As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors, and today to supporting people with disabilities, we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures. As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery, of course we're going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the minister needs to take the responsibility here. These women and families deserve answers. This is a real problem happening right now. You said you would conduct GBA+ analysis on all policy measures moving forward. Where is the assistance for these expectant mothers?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I take responsibility. I'm very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures, how many women received the GST credit, how many women who lead families received the CCB one-time payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have all-party consent today.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota, may I remind you to please direct your questions through the chair?", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I will ask again, hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "My goodness, Madam Chair. I'll say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls, and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase, how completely we make women at the core of every decision.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota, you have 15 seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, my question is still not answered. She keeps repeating the same answer. I'll keep asking the same question, hoping for a straightforward answer. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Honourable minister, you have five seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we've taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning, and we'll continue to do so.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We go now to Mr. Carrie.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 I asked Minister Blair why Lisa Freeman, a constituent of mine, wasn't able to participate in the Parole Board hearing of her father's murderer. The minister acknowledged that this had been a mistake and that victims would now be able to attend by telephone and video conference. Can the minister tell this House how many parole hearings have been conducted under this digital format with victims since April 29?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank my honourable colleague for the question. I'm glad to hear that Minister Blair was able to provide information on the specific case he raises. With regard to his question, we're happy to provide it to him in due course.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship)" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 the minister said, and I quote, Steps have been taken to make it possible for victims to participate in those parole hearings virtually by phone or video conference. If the change has been made, can the minister please tell us how many hearings victims have been able to participate in by video conference?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, certainly we will confirm the number of hearings that may have occurred. With regard to the hearings under the Parole Board of Canada, we want to ensure that victims and others are able to participate in a fair and transparent manner.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, the website says, To protect the health and safety of the public, offenders, Parole Board...members and staff in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the PBC is currently conducting its hearings remotely via video conference or teleconference. However, when referring to victim participation, the PBC says it has Implemented technological and procedural enhancements in order to provide victims...the ability to participate...via telephone. If video conference is an option for staff and inmates, why is it not for victims?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, it is very important that all parties be able to participate before the Parole Board. The Parole Board has introduced technologies to allow victims to participate in a manner that is fair and that accords them the opportunity to express themselves.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the minister is missing the point. For victims, besides the criminal trial, the Parole Board hearings are the only chance to participate in the judicial process. Why are victims not permitted on the video conference, while staff, panels and inmates are?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said now on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in the hearings before the Parole Board. This is as a result of technology and innovations introduced by the Parole Board. Of course, those opportunities will continue to exist going forward.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Then, Madam Chair, why did the minister and this government tell Canadians and the House that victims of crime have the opportunity to participate in parole hearings by video conference, when in fact they do not?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said, of course we are going to confirm the status of that particular request. In the meantime, as I've said on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in these hearings. This is consistent with the fairness of those hearings and the due process we accord to them.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, it's been over a month. When will the minister finally give victims of crime the same right to parole hearings by video conference as he gives convicted inmates?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I reject that proposition. The Parole Board is a well-established tribunal that does allow for all parties, including victims, to participate in a manner that is fair, and that allows them to express themselves so those representations can be taken into account in the decisions of the Parole Board of Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "He can reject it as much as he wants, Madam Chair, but it seems he thinks it's fair that inmates have that right, but victims don't. We'll follow up with him on that. Brandon Hottot owns and operates a contracting business in my riding, and his company needs help. On May 19, the Prime Minister announced the government would allow sole proprietors and gig contractors to qualify for the Canada emergency business account; however, Brandon has still not been able to take advantage of this benefit. When can small business owners like Brandon expect this change to finally be made? It's been over three weeks, and the clock is ticking.", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, from the very beginning, we have been working hard to support our small businesses. Over 660,000 businesses today have received access to small business loans. I want to assure my colleague that additional support will be there within about a week.", "speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade)" }, { "content": "Mr. Carrie, you may have a very short question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Okay, Madam Chair. Shawn and Denise operate a gymnastics facility in Whitby and have been forced to close throughout COVID-19. As the economy begins to open, they are concerned about not having the money to pay their employees in the short term, especially at a reduced client capacity. Is the government extending the wage subsidy to small businesses that have been closed and are just beginning to open now?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "The wage subsidy has been extended until August 31. We hope businesses like that one will be able to take advantage of the wage subsidy to keep their employees on staff.", "speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng" }, { "content": "We will go now to Ms. May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to put it on the record, because we may or may not be debating it, the draft embargoed bill that we've seen is unacceptable to members of the Green Party caucus. My questions will relate largely to those sections that are troublesome. I'll start with a question to the honourable minister for disabilities. I certainly appreciate her work and I know her intentions are the best, but part 3 of this bill allows for the information to be shared so people can get a one-time payment of $600, which is not enough to really deal with the COVID crisis for people with disabilities. It's clearand I thank the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party for making this point clearly in question periodit will reach approximately 40% of people with disabilities because of the structure of going through the disability tax credit. To the honourable minister, are other measures under consideration to reach the rest of the people in Canada with disabilities who need help?", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the disability support payment we are proposing and that we hope to get through the House today complements a whole suite of measures our government has put in place that people with disabilities have access to. We know that people with disabilities who were precariously employed are now taking advantage of the CERB. Students with disabilities get the student benefit, including a $750-per-month top-up for four months. Families with children with disabilities are getting the CCB payment. Disproportionately, people with disabilities are benefiting from the GST payment. I should talk about the provincial letters that are being delivered to recipients of provincial disability supports. All around, Madam Chair, we're trying to get to every citizen with a disability, and this measure fills an important gap.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Much worse than part 3, from our point of view, is the treatment of people who are at this point potentially to be jailed for refusing to return to work when it's considered reasonable and they are recipients of CERB. I wonder about the reasonableness here. It's a subjective test. This is a wrong-headed approach to go after people and threaten them. The retroactive section has already made the Canadian Civil Liberties Association question its constitutionality. To the minister, what's reasonable, and in whose eyes is it reasonable? In today's news, Hamilton's chief medical officer says there is a spike in cases among young people, who likely were exposed while taking public transit to get to work. Their commute wasn't safe. Who determines reasonableness in deciding it's not safe to go back to work?", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as with the current CERB, moving forward it tries to encompass the situations of people who are unemployed, people who can't work because of child care responsibilities, people who are ill or sick. Moving to a broad term of reasonableness allows us to look at the individual circumstances of the person. If we stuck to language like suitable or appropriate, that would qualify the job. We're trying to look at the person and their particular circumstances as we work to ensure that if someone is immunocompromised and can't take transit to their job, then it's reasonable for them not to take that job. That's the exact example we're trying to encompass with broad reasonableness criteria.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "The approach is so very flawed, Madam Chair, in that it attempts to punish people as opposed to encouraging them. I think the Liberals have been overly influenced by the Conservative Party's cries that there's vast fraud, that Canadians are cheating. The reality is that if you want to create an incentive to go back to work, you don't threaten people. What you do is create a sliding scale. You let people continue to receive CERB, but maybe less as they begin to earn more, so that you have a transition on a sliding scale to go into the wage subsidy or into CERB. I ask the honourable minister this: How can it be considered fair to say that someone isn't eligible, even though they believed they were? The language in this bill, particularly at proposed paragraph 12.1 in the penalties section, is an unreasonable determination that someone has violated the act and is subject to jail time and heavy fines.", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, because of parliamentary privilege, I can't and won't speak to specific acts of a piece of law that hasn't actually been introduced in the House, but I'll tell you that what we're trying to do is enhance our integrity measures. We're working with those people who made an honest mistake, those who took advantage of returning to work when they were still receiving the CERB. We're working with those people. We're absolutely confident that those people will find a path forward. We want to deal with intentional fraudsters, people who are criminally taking advantage of seniors. Members of this House have brought fact patterns to my attention and have said, Please deal with these. This is exactly what we're trying to deal with, Madam Chair.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from EsquimaltSaanichSooke. Tourism is a critical part of the economy throughout my riding, and after struggling with years of forest fires and floods, tourism was set to have a record-breaking year in 2020, but the COVID epidemic has burned tourism to the ground, in the words of a local leader. Thousands of jobs have evaporated. Over half of the tourism businesses in the region are facing imminent insolvency. Many of them are small seasonal operations that don't qualify for any of the government's COVID support programs. While funding for ad campaigns is appreciated, these businesses need direct support and they need certainty about that support. Can the finance minister pledge now to provide direct and timely support to tourism businesses in my riding?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings" }, { "content": "Thank you to my colleague for his important question. I agree with him. The tourism sector has been deeply impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis. Yes, we were looking forward to another record-breaking year in 2020, but unfortunately the pandemic happened, and therefore many businesses were impacted. That's why, as a government, we're there to help with the wage subsidy, which has been extended until the end of August, as the tourism sector has been asking us to do; with the CEBA loans, the $40,000 loans, which also include a subsidy; and with the commercial rent relief. That said, we know the tourism sector also sometimes falls through the cracks. That's why we wanted to have a backstop. We came up with funding through the regional development agencies. In my colleague's riding, it's Western Economic Diversification. Some businesses have applied and have received funding. If there are more that need help, please come and see me. I would love to be there to help your community, help tourism", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "A big part of tourism in my riding is the wine sector. One thing that has allowed the wine industry to grow so dramatically in the past few decades is the excise tax exemption. That exemption could likely end very soon if it is found to be non-compliant with our trade agreements. The industry has proposed a trade-legal replacement, the wine growers' value-added program. The finance minister has known about this situation for months. Can he assure this House and the industry that the government will act immediately to implement this program?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We continue to work on this issue. We recognize how important the wine industry is in B.C., and I assure the honourable member that I will come back to him and give him an update.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Garrison.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, this is National Blood Donor Week in Canada. While blood and plasma donations are always important, during this pandemic they're critical. There's a simple and effective way to increase the blood supply: End the gay blood ban. More than 17 other countries have no deferral because they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than identity-based exclusions. The Liberals must agree, because they promised this in two election campaigns. Will the Minister of Health do more than repeat those same promises today and instead take action to get this unscientific and discriminatory gay blood ban lifted?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison (EsquimaltSaanichSooke, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I'm glad to be able to answer this very important question. We indeed want to fight against discrimination. We feel this particularly strongly in the context of the last few days and the last few weeks. We are also mindful of the important contribution of scientists and other experts in this area. We look forward to working with all members in this House in making progress on that issue.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board)" }, { "content": "The government knows I've been calling on friends, family and allies of the gay community to donate blood this week in the place of those of us who cannot. Not only do we need routine blood donations, but to do the research we need on possible prevention and treatment of COVID-19, we urgently need plasma donations from those who have recovered. This ban means that plasma donations are being rejected for no good scientific reason. Again, when will the Minister of Health act to get this ban lifted?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I think the member used the right key words in referring to science and more prevention work to make sure that everyone lives in dignity and safety. Although there has been progress in the last few months and years on this important issue, there is more work to be done.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos" }, { "content": "Six years ago this week, I tabled a motion in the House that called for an end to this homophobic and transphobic ban on blood donations from gay men, men who have sex with men and trans women. That was five ministers of health ago. At the time, I was told certain things had to happen before the ban could be lifted. These were all due to be completed earlier this year, before the COVID crisis. Since we appear to have cross-party support for my new motion, M-41, that I put on the notice paper this week, would the minister and the government agree to support a unanimous consent motion to proceed with M-41 immediately?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a short answer, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Homophobia and transphobia are examples of discrimination and absolutely important things not only to recognize but to fight against. That's why we are pleased to have voices such as the member of Parliament's voice to make sure that we make progress in making sure that everyone in Canada lives in safety and in dignity.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchette-Joncas.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I will share my time with the honourable member for LongueuilSaint-Hubert. As Quebec starts to gradually emerge from the general lockdown, the outlook for the recovery of the tourism industry remains bleak. The economy of several regions of Quebec depends on tourism to ensure stability and balance, which will be beneficial in the coming months. Is the Minister of Finance prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit beyond 16weeks to ensure a living wage for tourism workers?", "speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, as I said in English, we're working very hard to continue to be there for all Canadians, whether it's through the CERB or the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Please excuse me, I'm very tired. I'll continue in English. We're going to have news on this very soon, Madam Chair, but the point is that we want to make sure that all of these programs work well together, whether it's the wage subsidy or the CERB. We want to make sure that we incentivize work, but we still continue to be there for Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We read that the government wants to gradually replace the Canada emergency response benefit by using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. That's all well and good, but seasonal industries aren't entitled to it under the current criteria. If the minister is aware of the importance of the tourism industry in the economic cycle of our regions, he must commit to helping workers. If the clientele isn't there, the industry will simply no longer exist. We still need the Canada emergency response benefit. We simply need to make it an employment incentive so as not to hurt people who are lucky enough to be able to go back to work. The question is simple: will the government commit to renewing it?", "speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we are working hard to make sure we continue to support Canadians as we transition through economic recovery. We want to make sure that we support Canadians, but of course we don't want to disincentivize work. The CERB was created for a different purpose. We asked people to stay home to be safe and to self-isolate if they had symptoms. We want to make sure that as we ask people to go back to work, we don't disincentivize work, but the reality is that there won't be jobs there for everyone, and we need to continue to support everyone.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Mr.Trudel, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I join my colleague in extending my good wishes to you on Portugal's national day. Apart from the fact that it is probably the most beautiful riding in Quebec, the riding of LongueuilSaint-Hubert has surely been one of the hardest hit by the pandemic, both in terms of health and the economy. There are industries here, but also many service businesses, including bars, restaurants and theatres. But we aren't close to being able to go back and see a show by WajdiMouawad or FredPellerin, and that's a shame. We must work to calm the anxiety of these people. The arts sector was the first to stop its activities and will be the last to resume them. There is a lot of anxiety. The CERB ends on July4. Will the government extend the CERB, with an employment incentive?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I thank my colleague for his question and all the work he's doing in arts and culture. From the outset, we've been there to support our artists and arts organizations. We introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, for example, but also the emergency wage subsidy, which we made available to non-governmental organizations. To ensure that people who receive royalties aren't penalized under the Canada emergency response benefit, we have adapted it. We announced a $500million fund to specifically help the arts and culture sector. In fact, we understand very well that this sector has been severely affected by the current crisis. We've been there for our artists and artisans, and we will continue to be.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Perfect. Instead of giving a long preamble, I'll ask a very simple question: will the CERB be extended on July5?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel" }, { "content": "The hon. minister has the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member opposite that in July we will be there for Canadian workers.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "In my riding, a nice little restaurant called Crpe Caf on St-Charles Street in Longueuil has just closed its doors. It's final; it won't reopen. Another restaurant owner told me that he was going to reopen his restaurant, but he didn't know at what capacity. Would it be at 15%, 30%, 40%? No one knows. The speed at which the economy will recover is the big unknown. How many hours a week will it be able to offer its employees? Will it be 12hours, 15hours, 22hours? Will employees even want to return to work to put in 12hours a week? If the CERB isn't adjusted, nothing will happen. Will the government commit to extending the CERB and providing an employment incentive to get the economy moving again at full speed?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I know, of course, that the restaurant sector has been much affected. I have a great deal of empathy for what entrepreneurs and my colleague are going through in his riding. That's why we are currently helping our SMEs. We have money for economic development. The money is available through Canada Economic Development, or CED. If my colleague wants to work with me to provide support to restaurant owners and other restaurants in Longueuil, I'd be very happy to do so.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Bragdon.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, last month, on May 5, I asked the government how it plans to support the agriculture sector. The Liberals announced a $50-million food surplus purchase program as part of the agricultural aid package. Now, one month later, our farmers, who provide the food we need, are still waiting on funds to be delivered. The New Brunswick potato industry is sitting on a massive amount of last year's crop that, because of the pandemic, has no buyers. When will the Prime Minister and the government step up and deliver the support our farmers so desperately need?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, without question we want to continue to support farmers. My colleague Minister Bibeau has introduced hundreds of millions of dollars for farmers. In addition to that, we have provided relief and support for migrant workers, who are ensuring that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, when support for the agriculture sector was announced on May 4, our agriculture sector had been sounding the alarm for weeks that they needed help to continue to meet Canadians' food needs. It has been over a month since that announcement, and our farmers are still waiting for help. It is worth noting, Madam Chair, that vegetables like the potatoes in New Brunswick that I previously mentioned are perishable products. Our farmers do not have the luxury of time. Again, will the Prime Minister and this government make agriculture a priority and provide them with the support they desperately need right now?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, obviously we believe in the importance of our regions and our rural communities, and that's why we've always made sure that agriculture was at the core of many of the decisions throughout this pandemic. That's why our colleague Minister Bibeau, who is the Minister of Agriculture, has been there providing the right liquidity and the right support through this pandemic. Of course we want to make sure that we continue to partner with provinces and territories, because we need their help in this context to make sure that all together we show strong economic support for our farmers, who are going through tough times.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "On May 1 the Liberals introduced a sweeping firearms ban through an order in council that outlawed 1,500 firearms. Recent reports show that since then, more and more firearms are quietly being added to the list of banned firearms, including many common hunting rifles and shotguns. Madam Chair, our hunters, outfitters, dealers and sport shooters are some of the most vetted members of our society. Why does the Prime Minister insist on making criminals out of law-abiding firearms owners instead of dealing with the criminals we already have?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I am very proud of this government's record when it comes to ensuring that we take out of our communities those guns that have one objective only, and that is to kill other people. We will always stand by that record, and we will continue to take the necessary steps to keep our communities safe.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Liberals have said that to compensate firearms owners, they will implement a national buyback program. Instead of targeting law-abiding firearms owners and their legally purchased private property, wouldn't the estimated quarter of a billion dollars needed to buy back these firearms be better utilized right now in supporting our agricultural sector, the very people who grow our food and literally keep our land?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, of course we look forward to saying more about that, but of course we remain committed to taking those guns that have only one objective, and that is to kill people. The legislation we have introduced and the measures we have taken are designed to keep our communities safe, and of course we will do that. We will also continue to support farmers, introducing hundreds of millions of dollars in support because we know they are providing Canadians with affordable food.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Mr. Bragdon, you have time for a short question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, many sole proprietors have been hit extremely hard by this pandemic. My office has heard from many who have been in business for nearly 30 years and have submitted hundreds of HST returns, yet still cannot access the CEBA funding because they do not have a business chequing account, as a lot of small business owners use their personal chequing accounts to do their business. The Liberals offered aid to sole proprietors but attached unnecessary hurdles that prevent many of them from accessing the funds they desperately need to keep their businesses afloat. When will these unnecessary hurdles be removed so businesses can start to receive the relief they so desperately need?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "We will have a very short answer from the honourable minister.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We believe in the importance of making sure we're supporting our businesses, including sole proprietors. That is why our colleague, Minister Ng, the minister for small business, has been working on this and will continue to make sure we take the appropriate steps to recognize that. Meanwhile, people can definitely come to the regional development agencies if they don't have access to funding through banks, and that's a good way to make sure there is a backstop.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Please note that, pursuant to the Standing Order made on April20 and May26, the House has been recalled. Therefore, the committee will adjourn, and the House will begin sitting at 2:30p.m. The bells will be rung to call members, and a parade will begin the sitting. The meeting is adjourned.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" } ]

[ { "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 20thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. As a reminder to all members, in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not be connected to the video conference. I want to remind those who are participating by video conference that, when they talk, they must use the channel that corresponds to the language they are speaking in. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. We are moving on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on. We will now move on to document submissions. The honourable minister, Mr. Blair.", "speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2019 annual report on the RCMPs use of the law enforcement justification provisions. This report addresses the RCMP's use of specified provisions within the law enforcement justification regime, which is set out in subsections 25 to 25 of the Criminal Code. This report also documents the nature of the investigations in which these provisions were used.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)" }, { "content": "On tabling of documents, we have Minister Sajjan.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 32, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2018-19 progress report on Canada's national action plan for the implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security.", "speaker": "Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence)" }, { "content": "Now we'll go to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of a special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Members who are participating in the meeting in person are kindly asked to bring the signed certificate to the office once the petition has been presented. Presenting petitions, Ms. May.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to present two petitions. They both pertain to the protection of our natural world. One is an e-petition, and it relates to the threat to pollinators globally. We know that honey bees and other pollinators are essential to food production. The petitioners note that research from around the world points to a threat to pollinators, particularly from a class of pesticides known as neonicotinoids. The European Union has taken action on this. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to practise a precautionary principle and remove from use neonicotinoids in Canada to protect our pollinators. The second petition relates to the ongoing threat to the southern resident killer whales. These iconic whales are much beloved in SaanichGulf Islands, throughout coastal British Columbia and indeed across Canada. The petitioners are calling for more action to be taken as the population of southern resident killer whales continues to decline, more action for boat-free safety zones, more prohibitions around whale tourism to make sure that the whales are safe from those who are keen to watch them from too close a distance, and more of a credible enforcement regime to support these measures to keep the southern resident killer whale population in our waters and not on the list of species that have become extinct.", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Genuis.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, for over 10 years, members of Parliament from various parties have been trying to pass legislation to deal with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. Irwin Cotler, Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Senator Salma Ataullahjan and I have all proposed bills on this. The petitioners want the House to support Bill S-204. This is another bill that would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. I'm sure petitioners would want me to add that, given the urgency of this issue, perhaps the government could consider bringing forward a government bill on this issue, which would allow the process to move much faster.", "speaker": "Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise here today to present a petition from Canadian citizens in support of motion M-1, which was placed in this House by my colleague the member for New WestminsterBurnaby on the green new deal. These citizens point out that climate change has escalated into a global climate emergency and that Canada must act with ambition and urgency. They call on the government to support M-1, a made in Canada green new deal, to take bold and rapid action to adopt socially equitable climate action to tackle the climate emergency and address worsening socio-economic and racial inequalities at the same time while ending fossil fuel subsidies, closing offshore tax havens, and supporting workers impacted by the transition by creating well-paying, unionized jobs in the shift to a clean and renewable energy economy.", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Johns.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and privilege to table e-petition 2577, which was sponsored by Chris Alemany from Port Alberni and is supported by 5,183 petitioners. They're calling on the Government of Canada to work urgently across party lines and in partnership with provincial and territorial governments to implement a guaranteed, consistent, national and livable universal basic income system for all Canadians. The petition is very timely, coming almost one year to the day since the completion of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which also called on the government to establish a guaranteed annual livable income for all Canadians. Whether it's about providing a safety net to get through a global pandemic, the means to keep your children out of poverty at any time, or simply being able to afford safe housing or transportation, it's time for Canada to have this conversation.", "speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Manly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and a privilege to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of NanaimoLadysmith. People are concerned about gas fracking and the use of methane and the destruction that methane causes to our atmosphere and with climate change. They're calling on the government to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on the Wet'suwet'en territory, and by ordering the RCMP to dismantle their exclusion zone and to stand down. They also call on the government to schedule nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentswhich is something that we're happy to see has been happening and I commend the government for that effortand to prioritize the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.", "speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)" }, { "content": "Next is Mr. Lamoureux.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, like Canada, Guyana is part of the Commonwealth, and many constituents of Winnipeg North have raised the issue with regard to the presidential election back in March, when it was being called into question. There have been some very positive indications in recent days, but the petitioners are asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to be aware of what's taking place in Guyana, and as much as possible, to be advocates for democracy and make sure that we're being diligent in supporting what the people of Guyana want to see.", "speaker": "Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.)" }, { "content": "I just want to remind the honourable members, when presenting petitions, to be as concise as possible. I notice they're starting to stretch a bit and it's something we all tend to do. Now we'll go to Statements by Members. The first statement will be from Mr. Lefebvre.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID-19. I am proud of all my constituents, and all Canadians, including first responders, volunteers, health care and essential workers, local miners, the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families, and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff. I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks; Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer; Nobel Prize winner SNOLAB's work on ventilators, which earned a federal contract; Vale Canada's $1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID-19 health solutions; and many more. We are all in the same boat, but we will get out of it together.", "speaker": "Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Sudbury, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Dalton.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Pitt Meadows is one of Canada's most beautiful communities. It's tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain. Most of the area consists of farmland, golf courses, parks and conservation areas. It also has Pitt Lake, which is among the largest freshwater tidal lakes in the world. Pitt Meadows' history dates back thousands of years with Katzie First Nation. In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for today's bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries. It's hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nation's busiest general aviation airports. Last weekend the community came together to celebrate Pitt Meadows Day a little differently because of COVID. In a great show of community spirit, from their front yards and balconies, thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city. I am thankful to have raised my family here, taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community.", "speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Kelloway.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times. Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been, it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through. Whether it is someone like Glen Muise, who delivers iPads to seniors' homes so they can connect with loved ones, teachers who deliver meals to students in need, Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas, two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast, or Rose Fitzgerald, who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county, constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need. Mr. Chair, as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso. The people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia care deeply about one another. They know that as a community, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable people, and I cannot help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding. Thanks so much.", "speaker": "Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape BretonCanso, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Ms. Brub, go ahead.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash, whose commitment I commend, to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec. The Bloc is open to the idea, but we shouldn't wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action. There are already potential solutions for taking action. Commissions have been issuing reports for decades, and Ottawa has been tabling them. Last year alone, the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations. The federal government must work with indigenous peoples, Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces. Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP. Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures. Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the long-overdue reconciliation. Let's take action.", "speaker": "Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ)" }, { "content": "I give the floor to Mr.MacKinnon.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues, I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020. We know that, owing to the pandemic, graduation celebrations will be different this year, as students will be deprived of their prom, their graduation ceremony and, in some cases, their goodbyes to friends and teachers. I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant, LeCarrefour, Nicolas-Gatineau, de l'rablire, Collge Saint-Alexandre, Collge Nouvelles Frontires, Collge Saint-Joseph, Philemon-Wright and other regional schools, are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis. However, that takes nothing away from their accomplishment. So when they receive their diploma, here is what I will say to them: Surge ahead! The future belongs to you. Be ambitious, follow your dreams and, most importantly, continue to change the Outaouais and the world! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time.", "speaker": "Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Morantz.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre, which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg. This state-of-the-art addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott, Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce, who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011. The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community. I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council. The addictions crisis in Canada needs action. With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions, we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction. I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality. Addictions affect us all, and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution.", "speaker": "Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Jowhari.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill. Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty. I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services. I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which, upon receiving these donations, redoubled their efforts to serve their communities. Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation Long-Term Care Centre, Divine Favour Senior Homecare, the Community & Home Assistance to Seniors, the True Compassion Home Health centre, Blue Door, the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program, Yellow Brick House, Hill House Hospice, Community Living York South, and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill. The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament.", "speaker": "Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Madam Lalonde.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Usually, at this time of the year, I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans. However, we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year. I cannot express enough how, in these exceptional times, I have witnessed the strength, resilience and community spirit of our graduates. I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class. Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school, the cole secondaire catholique Batrice-Desloges, had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success. As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future. We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them. We will not fail. I thank the teachers, the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work. Congratulations to all graduates of 2020.", "speaker": "Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Vis.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives. For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely. The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit, most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection, even though Internet is an essential service. Those in underserved areas, including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, cannot work from home and their children cannot keep up with their classmates. For many of my indigenous constituents, Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies don't want to serve them. I, along with my colleagues, launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions. We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada. This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved.", "speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. McLeod.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada has been awarded its first-ever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme. Congratulations go to Lutsl K' Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation, with support from Deninu K'ue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area. It's 14,000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you'll find anywhere on earth. I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canada's $7.9-million commitment, along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year. The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large. Congratulations to Lutsl K'.", "speaker": "Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Falk.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Liberal government has tabled $87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study, debate and pass it. The allocated time is wholly inadequate. Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent. They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament. It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this government's spending. It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy. It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal government's programs fail to meet their intended goals. A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy. Canadians are owed better. Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting, parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do.", "speaker": "Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC)" }, { "content": "We now go to Mr. Godin.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Our planet is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. Our daily lives have been turned upside down. I am thinking of you, our seniors, valuable individuals who built our country. You have gone through a very restrictive confinement. You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families. Our students also had to adapt. Their school year was turned on its head. Our graduating class, especially, saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish. The future belongs to them. They must follow their dreams. I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things. We have all taken on our important responsibility, that of following the guidelines. The results have been most compelling in my riding. I want to say how proud I am to represent you here, in the Canadian Parliament. I thank each and everyone of you. You are helping PortneufJacques-Cartier flourish. You have shown resilience, creativity, innovation and solidarity. That is commendable. Together, we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger.", "speaker": "Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Gazan.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg, led by women and non-binary individuals, who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality. We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism. We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power. We will speak out against police violence. We will speak out against systemic racism. We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us, not abuse us. We will call out those who abuse their power. We will rise. We will rise. We will rise. To all the women and non-binary folks who are standing, I say, let's continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected. Our liberation is intertwined. Solidarity.", "speaker": "Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)" }, { "content": "Mrs.DeBellefeuille, go ahead.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID-19. However, the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister. First, he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition, while the economic recovery must be prepared. He is refusing to provide an economic update, even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic. He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers. The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave, and not after it. Finally, today, he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed. He is behaving as if he had a majority government. This is not a time for recklessness. Governing means anticipating. I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together.", "speaker": "Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Uppal.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic. I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods' Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors. Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and Dil-E-Punjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals. Sikh Youth Edmonton delivered free groceries to families, seniors and students. Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton. The Bhartiya Cultural Society Hindu temple provided free meals to anyone who needed them. Punjab Insurance and The Punjab chain of restaurants provided free meals in downtown Edmonton. The staff, nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy. I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength, resilience and compassion as we move forward together.", "speaker": "Hon. Tim Uppal (Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now proceed to Mr. Fonseca.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today is Portugal Day, celebrated both in Portugal and around the world by Portuguese. In Canada, June has been recognized as Portuguese Heritage Month. We're truly happy to recognize the great contributions made by Canadians of Portuguese descent. This year is a difficult one, though, for all of us, including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation. Our prayers and well wishes are with everyone. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times. Your warmth, hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally. As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family, I know this year will be a lot different from previous years. I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal, and please continue to support our local businesses. ", "speaker": "Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We now begin the period of questions for ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for sitting to substitute each other very safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister is doing everything to avoid being accountable to Canadians. He is refusing to table a budget, refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work. Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities, but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that. I hope the opposition parties will allow a vote and a debate in the House on this important bill.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister wants parliamentarians to vote on aspects of the government's spending. We want the Auditor General to be able to examine that government spending. Under the government, the Auditor General has had to do more with less, and her ability to conduct audits is being affected. The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits, despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending. I have a simple question. Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job, yes or no?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor General's office in 2018-19, and the equivalent of 38 full-time staff were added. We support the Auditor General, unlike the Conservative government, which fired 60 people from the Auditor General's office. We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon, and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "The Prime Minister is again engaged in revisionist history. He well knows that it was the Auditor General's office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies, which did not affect its ability to do the job. In fact, as the interim auditor general, John Wiersema, said, We would not have proposed if we didnt think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament. Only the government's refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor General's ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve, and we wonder why. This is the government that cannot explain where 20,000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars' worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone. They can't identify that. Then there is, of course, the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank, which has completed precisely zero projects. Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, talking of revisionist history, Stephen Harper's Conservatives cut $6.5 million from the Auditor General's budget and fired 60 staff. On the contrary, we worked with the Auditor General's office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new full-time staff. We will continue to demonstrate openness and transparency. We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament, whom the Conservatives, in their time in office, showed no respect for. We will continue to move forward in a way that has led, for example, to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians. The Conservatives don't seem to want that debate or vote.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position. The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did, so I understand why he likes to live in the past. In May, the interim auditor general said, Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. With our current resources, we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year. That's half the number of audits, despite a massive explosion in government spending. The Auditor General's office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done. Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor General's office, yes or no?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we very much look forward to working with the new Auditor General to ensure that her office has the ability to continue the important audits and transparency measures that are foundational to our institutions. Speaking of what is foundational to our institutions, this afternoon we're putting forward a bill that would help Canadians across the country, and we've proposed to debate and vote on that bill. It actually looks like the Conservatives and other opposition parties might not want this. They have been complaining about not having debates and votes in Parliament, and now they're proposing not to have them. That's a little head-scratching. We hope they're going to help Canadians.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "We will continue with Mr.Blanchet.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We may have a chance here to replace a problem with a good opportunity. This morning, we heard many groups and organizations that represent people with a disability express their concerns over the bill introduced by the government, which I feel is chocolate pudding containing cod liver oil. We agree with the chocolate pudding. We are favourable to helping people with a disability. People don't know the rules. They don't knowI am telling them nowthat a bill can be divided. It can be cut into parts and voted on in parts. The rest of the bill can be enhanced. I am saying to the Prime Minister that, if he presents the part on disabled individuals, it will be passed at the speed of light. He won't even see it happen. Is he prepared to divide the bill, so that we can work together to help people with a disability?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ)" }, { "content": "The bill that we are proposing this afternoon will certainly help people living with disabilities. We can always recognize that this is important, and every party should be open to it. We will also increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit from four-week intervals to two weeks. We will also expand the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses will have access to it. I am always willing to work with members of the opposition to ensure that we adopt these measures, all or some of the measures. We want to help Canadians. We look forward to debating and voting on this later today.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "It is a glorious day. I heard all or some of the measures. That means that we are not adopting them all at the same time and that the bill is being split. Can the Prime Minister confirm that he is in fact going to split his bill so that we can address the various components separately, since they have nothing to do with each other, and improve them, in keeping with our mandate as elected officials?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "Our goal on this side of the House, and it is shared by all members of the House, is to help Canadians during the pandemic. We have put forward a number of measures that will help Canadians in a tangible way. Yes, that includes Canadians living with disabilities, but it also includes businesses that cannot, but should be able to, access the wage subsidy. In addition, we are going to make the Canada emergency response benefit more flexible. I look forward to continuing the discussions", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchet has the floor.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "We almost had some clarity, but one swallow does not make a summer. Yes, there is a need for discussions on the Canada emergency response benefit. The government says that it wants to transform the program into something very coercive, without admitting that the lack of an employment incentive has essentially sabotaged another program, the wage subsidy. That deserves some thought. That is what we are elected to do. We do not need to spend eight months on this, we can fix it in a few hours. When the government says that we are going to have to vote on this, it means rubber stamping its bill. We have the right to debate it, to have discussions and to improve it. I watched the election on the night of October21. It was a beautiful night. It was more fun than a hockey game. People elected a minority government. Can the government admit that?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "We are not proposing only to vote on this bill this afternoon, we are proposing to debate it. It is the role and responsibility of all of us in the House to exchange ideas and to work together to help Canadians. That is exactly what we are proposing this afternoon. It is about helping people with disabilities, increasing the flexibility of the CERB, and expanding the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses have access to it. I look forward to debating this with my colleagues opposite.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchet, you have 43seconds left.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "That will be enough. I would be remiss if I allowed the Prime Minister to mislead people quite unintentionallyI say this in accordance with the Standing Orders. When we introduce a bill, we discuss it at second reading, we vote, we continue to discuss it and we send it to committee. All that can be done very quickly. However, we must be able to amend and improve this bill. That is how the normal Parliament works. The government doesn't like being in a minority situation. It behaves as if it were a majority government, but it is not. Can we follow the real procedures of Parliament, do a proper job, and then have a vote that is likely to suit the majority of members, not just the Prime Minister?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, my hon. colleague seems to completely forget that we are going through a pandemic. The COVID-19 crisis requires different actions on our part. That is why we provided the text of the bill to the opposition parties four days ago. We have been working with them for hours over the past three or four days to amend the bill, if they had amendments to propose. That is how we are taking action to help Canadians quickly during this crisis, and that is what we will continue to do.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Singh, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities, will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit. We hope to be able to debate it.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "As I said, Mr. Chair, discussions are ongoing on that, but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them, as we have been.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, a family that needs to buy groceries can't take those pretty words and buy groceries with them. We're asking the Prime Minister to extend the CERB for families in need. Will the Prime Minister do that, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to be there for Canadians in the right way. We are engaged with stakeholders, with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I can tell you what the right way is. Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he's an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened. He is now dependent on the CERB. He wants to go back to work, but there's no work. He sent an email saying he's faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he's frightened that if the CERB runs out, and it is planned to run out at the end of this month, then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet. Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, and as we have been saying from the beginning, we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it. The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon. We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities, to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB. He doesn't even want to debate those things. He doesn't even want to be voting on them. Will the NDP allow us to move forward on these important measures for Canadians?", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, let's talk about those measures. One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities. Now the government's plan is only going to help 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40%, or a significant portion, of people with disabilities, he wants to help none of them, because he's not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill. That's unfortunate. We're always happy to look at how we can do more. We have demonstrated from the beginning that we want to do more for Canadians. I look forward to working with the NDP. I am hoping those members change their minds and allow us to have an important debate this afternoon.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Let's talk about the 60% who aren't being helped. They are veterans living with disabilities, those who receive CPP and those who receive disability payments. Often it's the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who won't be helped with the plan the government is proposing. Will the government help all Canadians living with disabilities?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our proposal will help 100% of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit, including many veterans. The fact is that we are there to support the disability community. We are there to support Canadians with disabilities. Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation?", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Singh, we have 43 seconds for a question and an answer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, that's the exact problem with the Liberal proposal. It's a tax credit approach, which excludes the vast majority of Canadians living with disabilities. That is the wrong approach. We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB, if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities, we will move forward. Will the government do that?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I have said from the beginning, we look forward to continuing to work with the members opposite to keep moving forward to help Canadians. However, we need the opposition parties to actually choose to help Canadians and not to play political games. I hope we're going to be able to actually have a debate and a vote on this important legislation this afternoon.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "We're now going to take a short pause to allow staff to change up in a safe way respecting COVID-19 procedure. The floor now goes to Mr. Rayes.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, can the Prime Minister tell us whether we will have an economic update by the end of June?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. It is of course very important to be transparent. When the situation is stable, we will have", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)" }, { "content": "Once again, the floor goes to Mr.Rayes.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, most of the provinces in Canada are working on tabling economic updates by the end of June. Why is the Liberal government unable to do so as well?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "I understand the importance of transparency and that is why we are trying every day to explain our investments to Canadians and to continue to be transparent with them.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "The Liberal government announced hundreds of billions of dollars in new spending during the pandemic, but it still refuses to provide an economic update in order to be transparent with Canadians. In times of crisis, monitoring the situation is more important than ever. I repeat my question: why does this government not want to table an economic update by the end of June, when the provinces are doing so?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "Every day, we explain the economic situation, our investments, the changes we are making, and our programs to improve the situation of Canadians during the pandemic. We will continue our approach to being transparent.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself does not understand why the federal government cannot deliver an economic update when the provinces can. Why are the government and the minister defying the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is an independent officer and is requesting an economic update?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "We will continue with our approach, which is one of transparency. We know that it's very difficult to make projections given the very dynamic nature of the situation. We think our approach of providing information daily is appropriate and we will continue to be transparent about our investments.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "That is incredible. When we listen to the minister and the Prime Minister talk, you would think we were in the pesky terrible twos phase that children go through, when they keep saying no, no, no. I find it funny that the provinces are able to table an economic update in a crisis situation. The opposition parties are asking for it, as are experts and officials. When the time comes for the government to listen to the scientists, it has no problem doing so. However, if people do not think like the government, it ignores them. The provinces are doing it, the opposition parties are calling for it and the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. Why will the Minister of Finance not table an economic update so that all members of Parliament can do their verification work?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "I will continue to provide daily information on our measures and investments. Projections are clearly very difficult to make. However, when the situation is more stable, we will be able to provide more information to Canadians. In the meantime, we will be adapting to the situation on a daily basis and making sure that we have the information we need to make our decisions and to make sure that Canadians understand our situation.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 45seconds left.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, one month ago, the Prime Minister announced with great fanfare that the eligibility criteria for the $40,000emergency loans for businesses would be more flexible to help self-employed entrepreneurs and businesses that pay themselves dividends to have access to them. However, as of todayit has been four weeks since that announcementbusinesses are still banging their heads on the doors of their financial institutions. They do not have access to the information because it is not available on official websites. In addition, even senior officials confirmed to me during a technical call on June2, last Tuesday, that this information would not be available for several weeks. Can the Minister of Finance, who says he wants to act quickly to help our businesses, explain why, after four weeks, it is still not possible to get the information the Prime Minister promised us from his doorstep?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have been listening and responding to small businesses and entrepreneurs across the country. In fact, we have even announced the expansion of the program's eligibility criteria to include many owner-managed small businesses with payrolls of less than$20,000. The new criteria have forced financial institutions to adapt to be able to provide this program to new applicants. We are working around the clock to ensure that we are able to promptly provide small businesses across the country with the assistance they need.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance)" }, { "content": "We will now proceed to Mr. Allison.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's unemployment rate stands at 13.7%. That's the highest it's been in almost four decades. Many industries, like travel, hospitality and tourism, are getting crushed. We rely on a lot of hospitality and tourism in my riding of Niagara West. Can the government tell us what their plans are to help the travel, hospitality and tourism industry that so many of my constituents depend on?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison (Niagara West, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his important question. I had a good conversation with the mayor of Niagara Falls recently, and we believe in the importance of the tourism sector. That's exactly why we've extended the wage subsidy until the end of August. There is the CEBA loan, the $40,000 loan. There is also spending through FedDev in my colleague's region. If he has clear, specific projects in the tourism sector that he needs help with, I would ask that he please come and see me and have a conversation.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the message from the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Perrin Beatty, and also other industries, is that we need a clear and coherent plan from this government because there's a whole hodgepodge of regulations and confusion about what's going to happen through the strategy. What I've told the government is that we need a strategy to reflect local conditions that is consistent and has a clear timeline so that businesses can begin to open safely and with confidence. What is the government doing to make this happen?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we absolutely agree. It is important for businesses to have an understanding of the programs that we've put in place. We have been consulting with businesses on the appropriate way to extend the wage subsidy so that we can continue to support businesses as they turn towards a safe restart. We've also looked very carefully at how we can ensure that the programs that we've put forward", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Allison.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has come way short of meeting the Canadian demand for personal protective equipment. Some equipment procured from overseas has been substandard and couldn't be used. Because of the shortage, in my riding of Niagara West, dentists have to pay up to 10 times the amount for an N95 mask. Compared to early March, when will the government finally begin to produce enough PPE in Canada to meet Canadian demand?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. We have mobilized over 700 Canadian companies to help them retool and rescale their efforts to make more personal protective equipment in Canada as part of a made-in-Canada initiative. We're going to continue to work with industry to build up domestic capacity.", "speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)" }, { "content": "Global News is reporting that Canada is struggling to secure a reliable source of PPE. What's the evidence of this? We know that the government procured 10 million substandard N95 masks that couldn't be used. Masks were sent back to suppliers for having flaws. We received mouldy swabs to be used in COVID-19 tests. Planes are arriving empty that should have been filled with PPE, and we received less than 5% of our total order of gloves. It's clear that Canada needs to rely on Canada for PPE. When will this government finally begin to take PPE equipment issues seriously and make enough in Canada to meet demands by Canadians?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the honourable member's questions were tainted with inaccuracies. Regarding the flights that returned from China without federal cargo, Air Canada did reimburse the federal government for that amount. In addition, with regard to the N95 masks that were referenced, the Government of Canada will not pay for masks that it does not use. Furthermore, as my colleague Minister Bains just stated, we are mobilizing and retooling the domestic industry. Over half of the face shields that we have received were produced in Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)" }, { "content": "At a time when the Prime Minister has ordered Canadians to stay home and businesses to remain closed, at a time when Canadians have had to say goodbye to their relatives over Skype, at a time when Canadians are not allowed to get married, at a time when Canadians are being fined for taking their kids to the park, at a time when restaurants are being fined $800 for allowing customers to eat outside and not being socially distanced, in these times, the Prime Minister's son attended a mass gathering with thousands of people while not socially distancing. Mr. Chair, why is it that there seems to be one set of rules in this country for some people but a different set for the Prime Minister? Why the double standard?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as the member knows, this country has been gripped with the need to stand up with one another to fight the experience of racism that so many Canadians live with and that so many of our American cousins live with. As the member knows, local public health sets advice for regions that he specified, and I would encourage all Canadians to check with local public health advice before they resume activities.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)" }, { "content": "Now we'll go to Mr. Chiu.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Many Canadian veterans are noticing that medical providers are increasing their costs. Everything is more expensive these days, including medicine, etc. It can take upwards of a year for Veterans Affairs to adjust their rate scale to compensate, and they do not allow for retroactive reimbursement. What are the government's actions to alleviate this hardship for our men and women who stood guard for this country, our veterans?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu (StevestonRichmond East, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the fact is that when we inherited the government, Veterans Affairs needed a lot of support from government. In fact, at that time, we invested $10 billion to make sure that Veterans Affairs was put in place and that we could provide the appropriate supports for veterans, like the pension for life, the centre of excellence on PTSD and the chronic pain centre of excellence. All of these things are so important. We have to realize that with government previously", "speaker": "Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs)" }, { "content": "We'll now go back to Mr. Chiu.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister, for answeringor respondingto my question, although that really did not provide an answer, in my humble opinion. Part of the side effect of spending hundreds of millions of dollars is inflation. My constituents in StevestonRichmond East are overwhelmingly finding this government's support for seniors inadequate. The opposition has put forward clear proposals, such as a one-time tax-free withdrawal being allowed for an RRSP or a RRIF. So far, the government has not taken any action on this. Why is the government ignoring suggestions to help Canadian seniors?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I want seniors to know that they are not alone. To help preserve their registered retirement income fund assets, we are reducing minimum withdrawals by 25% for 2020. We're also providing direct financial support so that seniors can get the help they need now. As the market is volatile during this time, we continue to look at all ways that we can best help seniors during this difficult time.", "speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Hong Kong government has arrested 9,000 civilians just in the past year. This is equivalent to the arrest of 42,000 people, proportional to Canada's population. It is anticipated that more unjust incarcerations will occur as Beijing imposes the national security law in Hong Kong. Has our government started preparing a list of names for Magnitsky-style sanctions, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as we have said, we and our allies are deeply concerned with Beijing's decision to impose a national security law on Hong Kong. With hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in its stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. The proposed law would also undermine the one country, two systems framework.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport)" }, { "content": "I thank the minister for responding. Again, however, words are not enough. It's time for action, because the Chinese embassy has said, in response to Canada's expressed concern, that they deplore, reject and condemn our response and our concerns thus far. What are the conditions for this government using Magnitsky sanctions should China continue to incarcerate Canadians and jeopardize the human rights of its citizens?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been very clear. We will continue to encourage all parties to engage in peaceful and meaningful dialogue to address the legitimate concerns expressed by the Hong Kong population. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chiu, we have about 22 seconds, so you have time for a very quick question and hopefully a very quick answer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Okay, here's a quick question. The Communist Chinese government has lied about COVID-19. They have issued statements against Canada and they have yet to release the two Canadians being held hostage. My constituents are concerned over this. When will this government listen to Canadians and call for a stronger, more effective and truly independent international investigation into COVID-19's origin?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "The honourable minister has 22 seconds or less, please.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we are dealing with a global pandemic, COVID-19. It is critically important that all countries in the world work together in a transparent, open and respectful manner so that we understand what is going on and how we can bring it to an end as quickly as possible.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "The next question will come from Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, if the government orders someone who has been exposed to a confirmed COVID case into a 14-day quarantine, why won't the government allow them to take an antibody test to lift the quarantine so they can go back to work?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (RenfrewNipissingPembroke, CPC)" }, { "content": "As the member opposite may or may not know, testing strategies are determined by provinces and territories. Furthermore, the testing of a particular person has to be done at the right point in time", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, there have already been some tests that have been approved. My friend and colleague here, Colin Carrie, from the constituency of Oshawa, has a constituent who has a test. It's 90% accurate and it's being sold to the United States and other countries. Why won't they provide a DIN number to it so that Canadians have access to it as well, regardless of which province or territory they live in?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I think the member is talking about two separate things. Any test kit that would be approved by Health Canada would be accessible to wherever that company chose to market that test kit. Furthermore, it's really important that test kits that are approved by Health Canada be accurate and have been tested with rigour with regard to their ability to provide credible and accurate information to the people who are using that test.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the test has proven to have an accuracy rate of 90% in identifying whether or not an individual has antibodies. Why won't she allow it to be used here?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I am happy to follow up with the member opposite's office when she is able to provide me with the name of the company. As you can imagine, there are many vendors trying to", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "How long will it take for an antibody test to be approved by this government once you have the name of the company and the test and the evidence in front of you?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Before we go to the honourable minister, I just want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair and not directly. Go ahead, Minister.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "We have an expedited process that could be completed in as little as five to seven days, depending on the accuracy of the test and the information supplied by the vendor.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, will Health Canada use reputable data from other countries to speed their determinations about antibody effectiveness, or just continue to withhold access?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Canadians expect us, at Health Canada, to ensure the accuracy and the safety of all equipment approved for use in Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chairman, if the minister can approve tests and studies within five days, why is it taking over 30, over 60, or over 90 days to approve an antibody test that exists?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "I appreciate the member opposite's interest in urgent and quick approvals; however, sometimes, depending on the company, there may be further questions and further tests that need to be run to ensure the accuracy or safety of that equipment. Should she wish me to check into the process for a particular", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We will go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Have officials provided the government with a target for a daily antibody test to complete an initial survey or the initial phase of a study?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is talking about the work of the immunity task force, which is, as you know, a group of scientists who have been funded by the Government of Canada", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We'll go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, would the minister please provide the names of the people on the task force to which she just referred?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I will forward those names to the office of the member opposite.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "I hope that will be within the next two days or so, and not wait until after the crisis has passed, Mr. Chairman. Why isn't the Prime Minister showing as much fervour for antibody testing as he is for getting a vaccine on the market?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I reject the premise of that question. In fact, the Prime Minister has shown fervour for all aspects of dealing with the coronavirus from the very inception of the virus on the world stage. To allege otherwise is quite disingenuous.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We'll go on to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "When will the government give the Auditor General the funds she needs to do her job?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC)" }, { "content": "First, Mr. Chair, I would like to offer my congratulations to the new Auditor General for her appointment. On behalf of the government, I would also like to offer her our full support and collaboration", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage)" }, { "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "I share the minister's wish to congratulate the new Auditor General on her position. I will now ask him again when he will give her the funds she needs to do her job.", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, her role is essential to our democracy. We are eager to work with her. She's more than welcome to share her concerns directly with the government. I can assure her that my", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I didn't ask him if he would like to work with the Auditor General. I asked him if he will give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job.", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our government has added 38 permanent staff positions to her office, while the Conservative government, under their leadership, cut the funding for more than 60", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "We'll move on to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, through you, I caution the minister to not mislead this House. If he will look at the committee transcripts of the time, he will know that it was the Auditor General's decision to reduce their own budget. The Conservatives did not cut positions. That is a matter of fact. The point is that the Auditor General now does not have the money to do her job. She has cut performance audits and she has stopped work on performance audits. When will this government give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "With us, it was 38 new positions, Mr. Chair. With them, it was 60 positions fewer.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has drastically expanded its spending and is avoiding accountability in every way it can. The finance committee yesterday, with the support of Liberal backbench MPs who are on that committee, unanimously passed a motion to fund the Auditor General in full so that her office can do her job. If this minister will not listen to me, will he at least listen to his own backbenchers?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our government is fully committed to supporting the important and ongoing work of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament. If the Auditor General identifies the need for additional resources, we will work with the Office of the Auditor General to ensure that they have all the resources they need to continue fulfilling their mandate efficiently and effectively.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Auditor General has consistently, since 2018, told this government that the office doesn't have enough funds. It's not a mystery. The Auditor General has told the public accounts committee that it cannot do its job. It's the first time in history that the Auditor General has had to tell public accounts that they don't have the resources to do their job. It's not a matter of if the Auditor General needs more funds. The Auditor General couldn't be more clear. When will this government actually do the right thing and fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, maybe I'm not making myself clear in English. I will switch to my native tongue, French, in case it becomes clearer. If the Auditor General identifies a need for additional resources, we will work with her to ensure that her office can continue to deliver its mandate efficiently and effectively. In addition, our government worked with the Auditor General to increase funding in 2018-09. With this increase, the office was able to add the equivalent of 38new full-time staff to its team. That's 38more employees", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "The floor goes to Mr.Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this isn't an if situation. The Auditor General has already told this government that her office does not have funds. This has been ongoing since 2018. I would ask the minister to please stop with the platitudes and actually just say yes or no. Will the government give the Auditor General the money that the Auditor General has already asked for?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we have already increased the budget of the Office of the Auditor General in the 2018-19 period.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Before we continue, we're going to suspend for a second to bring in the next chair.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "There's a point of order.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.))" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I know that no member would knowingly mislead the House. No member wants to do that. It's always customary to give members a chance to correct the record, so I call upon the minister to do so now, and perhaps even the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister misled the House in his response to a question. I have here the transcripts of the public accounts committee, and they will confirm that the", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "This is beginning to sound a bit like debate. We will proceed. Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. First, I would like to take this opportunity to say hi from Portugal. I would also like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague and friend, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean. Obrigado. While Quebec estimates its additional health care costs related to COVID-19 at $3billion, Ottawa is transferring around $115million, which is not even4%. Does the government recognize that this is clearly insufficient?", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, we invested an initial $500 million in transfers to the provinces and territories to manage the extreme pressure put on health care systems as a result of their supporting people living with COVID and in preventing COVID. We want to thank the provinces and territories for their work, and as the member opposite knows, we will continue to be there for the provinces and territories. This is a significant transfer, and we think", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, the minister says that this is a substantial transfer. Yes, it is a lot of money. The government is giving about $115million to Quebec, but that is not even 4%of what is being requested. Does the minister recognize that much more is needed?", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie" }, { "content": "We have been working with the provinces and territories from the beginning to respond to the crisis. We have increased health care transfers, provided medical protective equipment and responded to all requests for assistance. We have been able to make so much progress in the fight against COVID-19 precisely because of this co-operation. Stirring up an imaginary quarrel between the federal government and Quebec", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, it isn't about squabbling, it's about needs. The share that the federal government is giving isn't enough. We should act now, before we see a possible second wave. What we're seeing today are the results of massive disinvestment by the federal government in health care. This isn't good enough. The government must act quickly. Can the government commit to better funding to the health care sector and to organizing a meeting with Quebec and the provinces on this exact topic, in September at the latest? We can't afford to wait.", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie" }, { "content": "The hon. minister's response will have to be brief.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, with respect to the transfers to provinces and territories, the member opposite knows that our government, in our last mandate, significantly increased transfers to the provinces and territories for health services, including mental health and home care services. In fact, the funding we're providing is in addition to the $40 billion that was transferred", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. Tudo bem? Tudo bom? Today in La Presse, we learned that the government has extended its military presence in long-term care homes. Can the minister confirm this information, and can he also confirm that the presence of these 500soldiers is indeed in response to a request from the Government of Quebec?", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, let me assure the member that when Quebec made a request for assistance at the beginning of April, we answered the call. When they asked for an extension of that, we said we would continue to provide that assistance. I had a conversation today with Minister Guilbault, my counterpart in Quebec, and we have renewed our commitment to continuing to provide assistance. That assistance can take additional forms and can include involving the Canadian Red Cross, but we remain committed to providing the assistance that Quebec needs.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "If I understand correctly, negotiations are still under way with the Government of Quebec, even though it needs these soldiers. The mission ends Friday. This isn't really the time to negotiate anymore. We have to make sure that the military will stay in our long-term care homes as long as we need their services in Quebec, and until new attendants have been trained. Can the minister confirm that the mission will indeed be extended?", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe" }, { "content": "I'd like to assure this House that we have assured Quebec that the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to provide support until such time as other trained professional people are able to do that job. We're working very hard with the Province of Quebec. We're working with the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross. We will be there for Quebeckers because they need our help, and as long as they need our help, we'll be there to support them.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "This isn't the time to play cat-and-mouse. The only thing we have to do is to give the Government of Quebec what it's asking for. Quebec pays 23%of the army's budget, so Quebeckers are entitled to this support. Quebec has more than 5,000deaths from COVID-19, 90%of which have been in seniors' residences or long-term care homes. The military's presence is vital because they play an extraordinary and essential role. Will the minister commit to extending the mission now and putting an end to this uncertainty? It's certainly bad for both the military and the health care workers, who rely on this support.", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe" }, { "content": "The hon. minister has 10seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Again, Madam Chair, let me be very clear. We have made a commitment to the Province of Quebec that we will continue to provide that support until the middle of September, exactly as they have requested, but we are also working to ensure that we have an sustainable, effective solution to the request that Quebec has made, so we're working with the Province of Quebec, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross to ensure the help that is needed is there.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "We will go now to Bryan May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure and an honour to be with you all today. I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member of Parliament for Scarborough North. Madam Chair, COVID-19 continues to create challenges for all Canadians, including those with disabilities, and exacerbates those experienced by Canadians with disabilities. As we mark the end of National AccessAbility Week, I would like to remind our colleagues that our commitment to making Canada more inclusive and equitable is ongoing, including our passing of the Accessible Canada Act. Would the minister inform the House about the government's plans to support Canadians with disabilities who are experiencing increased costs due to COVID-19?", "speaker": "Mr. Bryan May (Cambridge, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, last week was the first National AccessAbility Week that was legislated under the historic Accessible Canada Act, and I thank every party in this House for the consent they gave to that legislation. I'm hoping we have the same spirit of camaraderie for people with disabilities this afternoon. Since the beginning, Madam Chair, we have taken a disability inclusion approach on how we support people with disabilities in this time of pandemic, including the establishment of our COVID-19 disability advisory group, which has given us invaluable advice. I thank them so much for their contributions to our efforts. Last week we announced a suite of measures to support people with disabilities that complement existing measures that are in place. This includes a one-time payment of $600 to 1.25 million citizens with disabilities, which again is the subject matter of the legislation this afternoon, as well as a $15-million investment in an accessible workplace initiative that will ensure, moving forward.... We know that as we move back into employment situations it will be very tough for people with disabilities. Finally, there are five really exciting accessible technology initiatives, including working on point-of-sale terminals for Canadians who are blind or visually impaired.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)" }, { "content": "You may have a very short question, Mr. May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her department for all the work they are doing to ensure that accessibility is at the forefront of everybody's mind through this crisis.", "speaker": "Mr. Bryan May" }, { "content": "Mr. Chen is next.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as humanity battles COVID-19, we are confronted by the stark realities of another disease. On May 25, George Floyd fell unconscious and died as a police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes. This all happened after the 46-year-old black man was handcuffed and put in a position where he could do no harm. In Canada, we have come a long way since Viola Desmond, yet there is much more to do. Anti-black racism is institutionalized, hidden under dominant narratives of a free and multicultural society. Hatred has no boundaries, whether it is against black communities or is anti-Asian sentiment fuelled by COVID-19. The question always is this: Who is next? We must all stand up together against hatred and for justice and reconciliation, to dismantle systems of oppression that long remained unquestioned. Recent data from Statistics Canada shows that Canada is failing black youth, creating the conditions that push them into the justice system. To the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, my question is this: What is the government doing to address the unique challenges faced by black youth?", "speaker": "Mr. Shaun Chen (Scarborough North, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the member for Scarborough North is absolutely correct. We must all do what we can to stand up against hatred and injustice. We often say that today's youth are not only the leaders of tomorrow but the leaders of today, so we need to equip them for success by investing in youth. According to the 2016 census, black Canadians accounted for 1.2 million people, and more than a quarter of that population is under the age of 15. Socio-economic gaps, such as in employment and education, exist between black and non-black youth. We need to do better. Our government has brought forward youth so they can inform the decisions we make. We have Canada's first youth policy, and it was created by youth for youth to ensure that all young people are equipped to live healthy and fulfilling lives, and are empowered to create positive change for themselves and their communities. Our government launched the community support for black Canadian youth program, which supported 56 projects geared to address the unique challenges faced by black Canadian youth through the development of leadership skills and civic engagement, while empowering them through the promotion of black history, culture and identity. To address the challenges of the pandemic, our government has implemented a suite of measures designed to help youth and students, including with employment and service opportunities. My office is working with community organizations who serve black youth to make sure they too are both aware of and benefiting from these measures.", "speaker": "Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth)" }, { "content": "Ms. Mathyssen is next.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be splitting my time with the member for TimminsJames Bay. Schools in many provinces remain closed, and many child care providers want to reopen. They must reduce their capacity due to COVID-19. Now more than ever we need universal, publicly funded child care to restart the economy. Will the government bring in legislation that would enshrine into law access to, and federal funding for, quality affordable child care?", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (LondonFanshawe, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we are, of course, committed to investments in child care. We have constantly worked with provinces and territories to ensure that we provide the supports they need to provide quality, affordable and accessible child care. Since 2015, we have created over 40,000 child care spaces. We are committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)" }, { "content": "The government doesn't seem to understand that this is not universal child care. During COVID-19, women have lost the majority of jobs, and they have taken on the majority of additional child care responsibilities. Canadian women want and need to return to work, but this government doesn't understand that without affordable child care, they simply cannot re-enter the workforce. For 26 years, Liberal governments have been promising, but failing to deliver, a universal child care program. Parents are paying the price. How much longer do parents have to wait?", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for the important question. Since 2015, we have created 40,000 affordable, accessible, quality child care spaces across the country. We are on track to continue to invest $7.5 billion over 11 years to create additional child care spaces and support provinces and territories. We're constantly in touch with our counterparts to work to strengthen that sector. We are also keeping our promise and our commitment to create an additional 250,000 spaces. We will be there for parents as they get back to work, and we will continue to reinforce the early learning and child care sector.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen" }, { "content": "You have time for a very short question, Ms. Mathyssen.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Without universal child care, we are crippling our economy. We are not providing an affordable system, and this stops women from returning to work. Instead of helping parents return to work, the government is now bringing forward legislation that's penalizing them. Why is the government looking to sentence mothers and fathers to jail time and large fines when they cannot find the child care that", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen" }, { "content": "The honourable minister has time for a short answer.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We are committed to the early learning and child care sector. We will move forward with the creation of an early learning and child care secretariat. We will continue to invest in this sector. We recognize its importance.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen" }, { "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Angus.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an honour to be here, and I'm hoping that you and your family stay safe at this time. COVID has shaken up Canada's middle class, so my question is for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity. This morning I spoke with a businesswoman. She runs her own business, a travel agency, but because of COVID she has been wiped out. She's on CERB, and it's ticking down. There's no work to go back to, so in four weeks she hits the economic wall. Will the minister fight for an extension of CERB so this woman can stay in the middle class?", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we know how worried Canadians are as they see their final four-week period of the CERB approaching, and we're working very hard to ensure that the CERB continues to serve an important purpose as we move into economic recovery. I'll note that when we created the CERB, there was a different purpose in mind. We were asking people to stay home. Now we're asking people to go back to work if it's safe for them to do so. We're going to make sure that the wage subsidy and the CERB complement each other. In fact, the measures in today's legislation will help us to get the flexibility to be able to do just that.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We did give you a little more time. We will go to Mr. Angus.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. What I've seen with their legislation today is that they're talking about jailing people. We need a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity in a time of middle-class disparity, and she has talked about middle-class criminality. Let's talk about this again, about people going back to work. I spoke with a 51-year-old bartender. He's a professional; this is his job. There is no job to go back to. Will the minister assure us that this man will be able to stay in the middle class because the CERB will still be there in July, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus" }, { "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we've been helping Canadians by putting programs in place. We will continue to support families during the crisis, and afterwards as well.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier" }, { "content": "Mr. Angus, you have time for a very short comment or question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "The issue here is that when COVID hit, millions of Canadians were living in such precarious working conditions that they didn't even have enough money to pay their rent. That is a damning indictment. In four weeks, those Canadians are going to hit the economic wall again. What I need to know from the minister, and what Canadians need to know, is whether she will commit, yes or no, that the CERB will be there for those who have no work to go back to.", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have been helping families with a supplement to the Canada child benefit. We have put in place the Canada emergency response benefit. We will continue to find ways to support Canadian families during this crisis.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cooper.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It was all the way back on March 25 that the Minister of Finance stated that help for the energy sector was coming within hours, possibly days. Well, as it turns out, it hasn't been hours. It hasn't been days. It hasn't even been weeks. Indeed, months later, help has yet to arrive. Seventy-seven days after the minister made that statement, not a single energy company has received financing under EDC, the BDC, or the LEEFF program. As the energy sector faces an unprecedented liquidity crisis, how can this government possibly justify such a delay?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper (St. AlbertEdmonton, CPC)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, weeks ago we opened applications through the business credit availability program to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We've also opened applications for measures that will be available to our larger players through our LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry. We will continue to support workers, and we will continue to do so to get through this unprecedented challenge.", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, on June 2, the vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers said, The entire industry is frustrated with the delay that we are facing. The Saskatchewan Minister of Energy and Resources has spoken about a gaping hole that exists in terms of support for the energy sector. The gaping hole that I'm speaking of is the EDC and BDC programs that this government has failed to deliver upon. Indeed, it was on April 17 that those programs were announced, and 54 days later, not only has not a single energy company received financing, but guess what? They can't even apply, and the eligibility criteria have yet to be finalized after 54 days. If that is not failing to deliver for the energy sector, what is?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Business Council of Alberta has said that the LEEFF program is a positive development showing that the federal government recognizes the needs and value of Canada's large corporations. We agree. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through two crises: the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war initiated by Russia and Saudi Arabia. That's why, weeks ago, we opened applications for liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We also announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry to make sure these programs are effective.", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, contrary to the representations of the minister, neither the EDC program nor BDC programs are accepting applications. Just yesterday officials from both BDC and EDC were before the finance committee, where I posed precisely those questions to them. We know, Madam Chair, that the application process isn't up and running and that eligibility criteria remain to be determined, but I guess this government has some good news for the energy sector after 77 days. Now energy sector companies can go on the BDC website and apply for email updates. Is that the kind of help the Minister of Finance had in mind after 77 days: email updates instead of real relief for the energy sector?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Alberta finance minister, Travis Toews, said in a LEEFF announcement that in combination with earlier measures for small and medium-sized companies, it represented an expression of confidence in our industries. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through these two crisesas I said, the impact of COVID, and then on top of that, the effect of a global price war. We opened up applications for liquidity measures as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers asked. Their top five asks were all liquidity. We supported small and medium-sized players essential to the supply chain, who make up 85% of the jobs in that sector, and then we announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry and", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan" }, { "content": "I now have to interrupt for a few moments to allow our technicians to change places. With that done, Monsieur Martel, you may now go ahead..", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, there has recently been positive progress in AndrGauthier's case, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Prime Minister for their co-operation in this matter. However, Mr.Gauthier is currently on his own in the United Arab Emirates, without a passport, waiting to settle civil lawsuits. What services does the minister intend to provide to help him, and when does he plan to repatriate AndrGauthier to Canada?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, in all cases similar to Mr.Gauthier's, the Government of Canada, through its consular services, tries to do the best it can under the circumstances. This file is still active.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "The House recognized on February18, 2020, that the 15weeks of sickness benefits provided by employment insurance were insufficient. Citizens who became ill before March15 are now without help. They are being denied the CERB because they didn't lose their jobs because of COVID-19. They are being denied EI regular benefits because they are unable to work. In addition, some citizens are waiting for surgery, which is being delayed because of COVID-19. Is the government letting these people down?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "No, MadamChair, that's absolutely not the case. Of course, we understand that people who are no longer receiving EI benefits should have access to the CERB. We have committed to extending the emergency sickness benefit to 26weeks. We're working with everyone here to make that happen. We're taking into account the needs and circumstances of all citizens in our efforts to help Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "I've called on the Minister of Economic Development several times to be more flexible in establishing these programs, so that they are better adapted to the realities of the regions. Recently, it was the SMEs in Montreal that were monopolizing the funds earmarked for the regions. When will the Liberal government listen to the needs of regions like SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "I thank my colleague for the opportunity to announce the good news that was mentioned on Radio-Canada this morning, namely, $71million more for the regions of Quebec. Of course, we're here for the regions. I will be happy to work with my colleague to ensure that the CFDC in his region can support businesses. We have to support businesses in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean and across the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "I think that's a canned speech. According to a survey conducted by the Universit de Trois-Rivires in Quebec, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is apparently the most economically affected by COVID-19. We have many projects, but they depend on the government's leadership to be carried out. Our region has forestry, the aluminum sector, GNL Qubec, tourism, the Port of Saguenay, Davie Canada, a military base and a tax centre. It's all here. We know we'll have to get the economy moving again soon. When will the government act to help our region?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "Every day, we act to help my colleague's region. I've had good conversations with Promotion Saguenay. I've also spoken several times with various stakeholders in my colleague's beautiful region. We will always be there for them. I'd like to tell my colleague that there will be other announcements to support the economic development of the beautiful region of SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. I will be happy to work with him to achieve good results.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Sustainable forestry development is at the heart of the economic development of Canada and for SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. Canadians have reason to be proud of the use of the boreal forest in the fight against climate change. Currently, our innovative forest industry is experiencing many problems, and on top of that, there is the COVID-19 crisis. Who will defend our forestry workers?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "Of course, we believe in the importance of regional economic development. That's why we're always there to defend our forestry workers. I will also be pleased to work with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is very familiar with the matter and who knows the challenges faced by the various businesses in the forestry sector, as well as the employees. We will always be there to support employees and create more jobs across Quebec and the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota is next. Go ahead, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. We continue to see significant gaps in the Liberals' programs. There are still people who are falling through the cracks and being left behind. We are hearing from women who are pregnant or who have just given birth and are being left out or told to go back to work. When will this government stop letting Canadians down?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC)" }, { "content": "We know that there are many situations of Canadians who are about to or are just going on maternity or parental benefits who might not have access to their EI benefits due to not having accumulated enough time for COVID reasons. We're working very hard to make sure, as we did for fish harvesters, that we support all Canadians in these situations. I look forward to advising Canadians of our approach on this very soon.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, that simply isn't good enough. This is something that has been brought to the government's attention for months now, and still nothing has been done. These families deserve answers now. Had the government conducted a GBA+ analysis, they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women. Why wasn't a GBA+ conducted?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls. We are working hard to ensure that everyone has the supports they need. As we move forward, we are, as I said earlier, taking into consideration improvements to the EI system, the wage subsidy and the future of CERB. All these play together as we work to provide a comprehensive forward-looking support package for Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA+? Why was it not done?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB. I can tell you that women are benefiting significantly from this benefit.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, it is a simple question, and I will ask again. Why was GBA+ analysis not conducted for the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way, from the beginning, as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, if that's the case, then how did you miss these gaps?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we didn't miss gaps. We, from the beginning, looked to support as many people as possible. As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors, and today to supporting people with disabilities, we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures. As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery, of course we're going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the minister needs to take the responsibility here. These women and families deserve answers. This is a real problem happening right now. You said you would conduct GBA+ analysis on all policy measures moving forward. Where is the assistance for these expectant mothers?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I take responsibility. I'm very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures, how many women received the GST credit, how many women who lead families received the CCB one-time payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have all-party consent today.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota, may I remind you to please direct your questions through the chair?", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I will ask again, hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "My goodness, Madam Chair. I'll say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls, and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase, how completely we make women at the core of every decision.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota, you have 15 seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, my question is still not answered. She keeps repeating the same answer. I'll keep asking the same question, hoping for a straightforward answer. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Honourable minister, you have five seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we've taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning, and we'll continue to do so.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We go now to Mr. Carrie.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 I asked Minister Blair why Lisa Freeman, a constituent of mine, wasn't able to participate in the Parole Board hearing of her father's murderer. The minister acknowledged that this had been a mistake and that victims would now be able to attend by telephone and video conference. Can the minister tell this House how many parole hearings have been conducted under this digital format with victims since April 29?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank my honourable colleague for the question. I'm glad to hear that Minister Blair was able to provide information on the specific case he raises. With regard to his question, we're happy to provide it to him in due course.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship)" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 the minister said, and I quote, Steps have been taken to make it possible for victims to participate in those parole hearings virtually by phone or video conference. If the change has been made, can the minister please tell us how many hearings victims have been able to participate in by video conference?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, certainly we will confirm the number of hearings that may have occurred. With regard to the hearings under the Parole Board of Canada, we want to ensure that victims and others are able to participate in a fair and transparent manner.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, the website says, To protect the health and safety of the public, offenders, Parole Board...members and staff in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the PBC is currently conducting its hearings remotely via video conference or teleconference. However, when referring to victim participation, the PBC says it has Implemented technological and procedural enhancements in order to provide victims...the ability to participate...via telephone. If video conference is an option for staff and inmates, why is it not for victims?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, it is very important that all parties be able to participate before the Parole Board. The Parole Board has introduced technologies to allow victims to participate in a manner that is fair and that accords them the opportunity to express themselves.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the minister is missing the point. For victims, besides the criminal trial, the Parole Board hearings are the only chance to participate in the judicial process. Why are victims not permitted on the video conference, while staff, panels and inmates are?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said now on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in the hearings before the Parole Board. This is as a result of technology and innovations introduced by the Parole Board. Of course, those opportunities will continue to exist going forward.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Then, Madam Chair, why did the minister and this government tell Canadians and the House that victims of crime have the opportunity to participate in parole hearings by video conference, when in fact they do not?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said, of course we are going to confirm the status of that particular request. In the meantime, as I've said on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in these hearings. This is consistent with the fairness of those hearings and the due process we accord to them.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, it's been over a month. When will the minister finally give victims of crime the same right to parole hearings by video conference as he gives convicted inmates?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I reject that proposition. The Parole Board is a well-established tribunal that does allow for all parties, including victims, to participate in a manner that is fair, and that allows them to express themselves so those representations can be taken into account in the decisions of the Parole Board of Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "He can reject it as much as he wants, Madam Chair, but it seems he thinks it's fair that inmates have that right, but victims don't. We'll follow up with him on that. Brandon Hottot owns and operates a contracting business in my riding, and his company needs help. On May 19, the Prime Minister announced the government would allow sole proprietors and gig contractors to qualify for the Canada emergency business account; however, Brandon has still not been able to take advantage of this benefit. When can small business owners like Brandon expect this change to finally be made? It's been over three weeks, and the clock is ticking.", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, from the very beginning, we have been working hard to support our small businesses. Over 660,000 businesses today have received access to small business loans. I want to assure my colleague that additional support will be there within about a week.", "speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade)" }, { "content": "Mr. Carrie, you may have a very short question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Okay, Madam Chair. Shawn and Denise operate a gymnastics facility in Whitby and have been forced to close throughout COVID-19. As the economy begins to open, they are concerned about not having the money to pay their employees in the short term, especially at a reduced client capacity. Is the government extending the wage subsidy to small businesses that have been closed and are just beginning to open now?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "The wage subsidy has been extended until August 31. We hope businesses like that one will be able to take advantage of the wage subsidy to keep their employees on staff.", "speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng" }, { "content": "We will go now to Ms. May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to put it on the record, because we may or may not be debating it, the draft embargoed bill that we've seen is unacceptable to members of the Green Party caucus. My questions will relate largely to those sections that are troublesome. I'll start with a question to the honourable minister for disabilities. I certainly appreciate her work and I know her intentions are the best, but part 3 of this bill allows for the information to be shared so people can get a one-time payment of $600, which is not enough to really deal with the COVID crisis for people with disabilities. It's clearand I thank the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party for making this point clearly in question periodit will reach approximately 40% of people with disabilities because of the structure of going through the disability tax credit. To the honourable minister, are other measures under consideration to reach the rest of the people in Canada with disabilities who need help?", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the disability support payment we are proposing and that we hope to get through the House today complements a whole suite of measures our government has put in place that people with disabilities have access to. We know that people with disabilities who were precariously employed are now taking advantage of the CERB. Students with disabilities get the student benefit, including a $750-per-month top-up for four months. Families with children with disabilities are getting the CCB payment. Disproportionately, people with disabilities are benefiting from the GST payment. I should talk about the provincial letters that are being delivered to recipients of provincial disability supports. All around, Madam Chair, we're trying to get to every citizen with a disability, and this measure fills an important gap.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Much worse than part 3, from our point of view, is the treatment of people who are at this point potentially to be jailed for refusing to return to work when it's considered reasonable and they are recipients of CERB. I wonder about the reasonableness here. It's a subjective test. This is a wrong-headed approach to go after people and threaten them. The retroactive section has already made the Canadian Civil Liberties Association question its constitutionality. To the minister, what's reasonable, and in whose eyes is it reasonable? In today's news, Hamilton's chief medical officer says there is a spike in cases among young people, who likely were exposed while taking public transit to get to work. Their commute wasn't safe. Who determines reasonableness in deciding it's not safe to go back to work?", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as with the current CERB, moving forward it tries to encompass the situations of people who are unemployed, people who can't work because of child care responsibilities, people who are ill or sick. Moving to a broad term of reasonableness allows us to look at the individual circumstances of the person. If we stuck to language like suitable or appropriate, that would qualify the job. We're trying to look at the person and their particular circumstances as we work to ensure that if someone is immunocompromised and can't take transit to their job, then it's reasonable for them not to take that job. That's the exact example we're trying to encompass with broad reasonableness criteria.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "The approach is so very flawed, Madam Chair, in that it attempts to punish people as opposed to encouraging them. I think the Liberals have been overly influenced by the Conservative Party's cries that there's vast fraud, that Canadians are cheating. The reality is that if you want to create an incentive to go back to work, you don't threaten people. What you do is create a sliding scale. You let people continue to receive CERB, but maybe less as they begin to earn more, so that you have a transition on a sliding scale to go into the wage subsidy or into CERB. I ask the honourable minister this: How can it be considered fair to say that someone isn't eligible, even though they believed they were? The language in this bill, particularly at proposed paragraph 12.1 in the penalties section, is an unreasonable determination that someone has violated the act and is subject to jail time and heavy fines.", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, because of parliamentary privilege, I can't and won't speak to specific acts of a piece of law that hasn't actually been introduced in the House, but I'll tell you that what we're trying to do is enhance our integrity measures. We're working with those people who made an honest mistake, those who took advantage of returning to work when they were still receiving the CERB. We're working with those people. We're absolutely confident that those people will find a path forward. We want to deal with intentional fraudsters, people who are criminally taking advantage of seniors. Members of this House have brought fact patterns to my attention and have said, Please deal with these. This is exactly what we're trying to deal with, Madam Chair.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from EsquimaltSaanichSooke. Tourism is a critical part of the economy throughout my riding, and after struggling with years of forest fires and floods, tourism was set to have a record-breaking year in 2020, but the COVID epidemic has burned tourism to the ground, in the words of a local leader. Thousands of jobs have evaporated. Over half of the tourism businesses in the region are facing imminent insolvency. Many of them are small seasonal operations that don't qualify for any of the government's COVID support programs. While funding for ad campaigns is appreciated, these businesses need direct support and they need certainty about that support. Can the finance minister pledge now to provide direct and timely support to tourism businesses in my riding?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings" }, { "content": "Thank you to my colleague for his important question. I agree with him. The tourism sector has been deeply impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis. Yes, we were looking forward to another record-breaking year in 2020, but unfortunately the pandemic happened, and therefore many businesses were impacted. That's why, as a government, we're there to help with the wage subsidy, which has been extended until the end of August, as the tourism sector has been asking us to do; with the CEBA loans, the $40,000 loans, which also include a subsidy; and with the commercial rent relief. That said, we know the tourism sector also sometimes falls through the cracks. That's why we wanted to have a backstop. We came up with funding through the regional development agencies. In my colleague's riding, it's Western Economic Diversification. Some businesses have applied and have received funding. If there are more that need help, please come and see me. I would love to be there to help your community, help tourism", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "A big part of tourism in my riding is the wine sector. One thing that has allowed the wine industry to grow so dramatically in the past few decades is the excise tax exemption. That exemption could likely end very soon if it is found to be non-compliant with our trade agreements. The industry has proposed a trade-legal replacement, the wine growers' value-added program. The finance minister has known about this situation for months. Can he assure this House and the industry that the government will act immediately to implement this program?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We continue to work on this issue. We recognize how important the wine industry is in B.C., and I assure the honourable member that I will come back to him and give him an update.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Garrison.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, this is National Blood Donor Week in Canada. While blood and plasma donations are always important, during this pandemic they're critical. There's a simple and effective way to increase the blood supply: End the gay blood ban. More than 17 other countries have no deferral because they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than identity-based exclusions. The Liberals must agree, because they promised this in two election campaigns. Will the Minister of Health do more than repeat those same promises today and instead take action to get this unscientific and discriminatory gay blood ban lifted?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison (EsquimaltSaanichSooke, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I'm glad to be able to answer this very important question. We indeed want to fight against discrimination. We feel this particularly strongly in the context of the last few days and the last few weeks. We are also mindful of the important contribution of scientists and other experts in this area. We look forward to working with all members in this House in making progress on that issue.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board)" }, { "content": "The government knows I've been calling on friends, family and allies of the gay community to donate blood this week in the place of those of us who cannot. Not only do we need routine blood donations, but to do the research we need on possible prevention and treatment of COVID-19, we urgently need plasma donations from those who have recovered. This ban means that plasma donations are being rejected for no good scientific reason. Again, when will the Minister of Health act to get this ban lifted?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I think the member used the right key words in referring to science and more prevention work to make sure that everyone lives in dignity and safety. Although there has been progress in the last few months and years on this important issue, there is more work to be done.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos" }, { "content": "Six years ago this week, I tabled a motion in the House that called for an end to this homophobic and transphobic ban on blood donations from gay men, men who have sex with men and trans women. That was five ministers of health ago. At the time, I was told certain things had to happen before the ban could be lifted. These were all due to be completed earlier this year, before the COVID crisis. Since we appear to have cross-party support for my new motion, M-41, that I put on the notice paper this week, would the minister and the government agree to support a unanimous consent motion to proceed with M-41 immediately?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a short answer, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Homophobia and transphobia are examples of discrimination and absolutely important things not only to recognize but to fight against. That's why we are pleased to have voices such as the member of Parliament's voice to make sure that we make progress in making sure that everyone in Canada lives in safety and in dignity.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchette-Joncas.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I will share my time with the honourable member for LongueuilSaint-Hubert. As Quebec starts to gradually emerge from the general lockdown, the outlook for the recovery of the tourism industry remains bleak. The economy of several regions of Quebec depends on tourism to ensure stability and balance, which will be beneficial in the coming months. Is the Minister of Finance prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit beyond 16weeks to ensure a living wage for tourism workers?", "speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, as I said in English, we're working very hard to continue to be there for all Canadians, whether it's through the CERB or the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Please excuse me, I'm very tired. I'll continue in English. We're going to have news on this very soon, Madam Chair, but the point is that we want to make sure that all of these programs work well together, whether it's the wage subsidy or the CERB. We want to make sure that we incentivize work, but we still continue to be there for Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We read that the government wants to gradually replace the Canada emergency response benefit by using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. That's all well and good, but seasonal industries aren't entitled to it under the current criteria. If the minister is aware of the importance of the tourism industry in the economic cycle of our regions, he must commit to helping workers. If the clientele isn't there, the industry will simply no longer exist. We still need the Canada emergency response benefit. We simply need to make it an employment incentive so as not to hurt people who are lucky enough to be able to go back to work. The question is simple: will the government commit to renewing it?", "speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we are working hard to make sure we continue to support Canadians as we transition through economic recovery. We want to make sure that we support Canadians, but of course we don't want to disincentivize work. The CERB was created for a different purpose. We asked people to stay home to be safe and to self-isolate if they had symptoms. We want to make sure that as we ask people to go back to work, we don't disincentivize work, but the reality is that there won't be jobs there for everyone, and we need to continue to support everyone.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Mr.Trudel, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I join my colleague in extending my good wishes to you on Portugal's national day. Apart from the fact that it is probably the most beautiful riding in Quebec, the riding of LongueuilSaint-Hubert has surely been one of the hardest hit by the pandemic, both in terms of health and the economy. There are industries here, but also many service businesses, including bars, restaurants and theatres. But we aren't close to being able to go back and see a show by WajdiMouawad or FredPellerin, and that's a shame. We must work to calm the anxiety of these people. The arts sector was the first to stop its activities and will be the last to resume them. There is a lot of anxiety. The CERB ends on July4. Will the government extend the CERB, with an employment incentive?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I thank my colleague for his question and all the work he's doing in arts and culture. From the outset, we've been there to support our artists and arts organizations. We introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, for example, but also the emergency wage subsidy, which we made available to non-governmental organizations. To ensure that people who receive royalties aren't penalized under the Canada emergency response benefit, we have adapted it. We announced a $500million fund to specifically help the arts and culture sector. In fact, we understand very well that this sector has been severely affected by the current crisis. We've been there for our artists and artisans, and we will continue to be.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Perfect. Instead of giving a long preamble, I'll ask a very simple question: will the CERB be extended on July5?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel" }, { "content": "The hon. minister has the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member opposite that in July we will be there for Canadian workers.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "In my riding, a nice little restaurant called Crpe Caf on St-Charles Street in Longueuil has just closed its doors. It's final; it won't reopen. Another restaurant owner told me that he was going to reopen his restaurant, but he didn't know at what capacity. Would it be at 15%, 30%, 40%? No one knows. The speed at which the economy will recover is the big unknown. How many hours a week will it be able to offer its employees? Will it be 12hours, 15hours, 22hours? Will employees even want to return to work to put in 12hours a week? If the CERB isn't adjusted, nothing will happen. Will the government commit to extending the CERB and providing an employment incentive to get the economy moving again at full speed?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I know, of course, that the restaurant sector has been much affected. I have a great deal of empathy for what entrepreneurs and my colleague are going through in his riding. That's why we are currently helping our SMEs. We have money for economic development. The money is available through Canada Economic Development, or CED. If my colleague wants to work with me to provide support to restaurant owners and other restaurants in Longueuil, I'd be very happy to do so.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Bragdon.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, last month, on May 5, I asked the government how it plans to support the agriculture sector. The Liberals announced a $50-million food surplus purchase program as part of the agricultural aid package. Now, one month later, our farmers, who provide the food we need, are still waiting on funds to be delivered. The New Brunswick potato industry is sitting on a massive amount of last year's crop that, because of the pandemic, has no buyers. When will the Prime Minister and the government step up and deliver the support our farmers so desperately need?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, without question we want to continue to support farmers. My colleague Minister Bibeau has introduced hundreds of millions of dollars for farmers. In addition to that, we have provided relief and support for migrant workers, who are ensuring that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, when support for the agriculture sector was announced on May 4, our agriculture sector had been sounding the alarm for weeks that they needed help to continue to meet Canadians' food needs. It has been over a month since that announcement, and our farmers are still waiting for help. It is worth noting, Madam Chair, that vegetables like the potatoes in New Brunswick that I previously mentioned are perishable products. Our farmers do not have the luxury of time. Again, will the Prime Minister and this government make agriculture a priority and provide them with the support they desperately need right now?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, obviously we believe in the importance of our regions and our rural communities, and that's why we've always made sure that agriculture was at the core of many of the decisions throughout this pandemic. That's why our colleague Minister Bibeau, who is the Minister of Agriculture, has been there providing the right liquidity and the right support through this pandemic. Of course we want to make sure that we continue to partner with provinces and territories, because we need their help in this context to make sure that all together we show strong economic support for our farmers, who are going through tough times.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "On May 1 the Liberals introduced a sweeping firearms ban through an order in council that outlawed 1,500 firearms. Recent reports show that since then, more and more firearms are quietly being added to the list of banned firearms, including many common hunting rifles and shotguns. Madam Chair, our hunters, outfitters, dealers and sport shooters are some of the most vetted members of our society. Why does the Prime Minister insist on making criminals out of law-abiding firearms owners instead of dealing with the criminals we already have?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I am very proud of this government's record when it comes to ensuring that we take out of our communities those guns that have one objective only, and that is to kill other people. We will always stand by that record, and we will continue to take the necessary steps to keep our communities safe.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Liberals have said that to compensate firearms owners, they will implement a national buyback program. Instead of targeting law-abiding firearms owners and their legally purchased private property, wouldn't the estimated quarter of a billion dollars needed to buy back these firearms be better utilized right now in supporting our agricultural sector, the very people who grow our food and literally keep our land?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, of course we look forward to saying more about that, but of course we remain committed to taking those guns that have only one objective, and that is to kill people. The legislation we have introduced and the measures we have taken are designed to keep our communities safe, and of course we will do that. We will also continue to support farmers, introducing hundreds of millions of dollars in support because we know they are providing Canadians with affordable food.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Mr. Bragdon, you have time for a short question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, many sole proprietors have been hit extremely hard by this pandemic. My office has heard from many who have been in business for nearly 30 years and have submitted hundreds of HST returns, yet still cannot access the CEBA funding because they do not have a business chequing account, as a lot of small business owners use their personal chequing accounts to do their business. The Liberals offered aid to sole proprietors but attached unnecessary hurdles that prevent many of them from accessing the funds they desperately need to keep their businesses afloat. When will these unnecessary hurdles be removed so businesses can start to receive the relief they so desperately need?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "We will have a very short answer from the honourable minister.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We believe in the importance of making sure we're supporting our businesses, including sole proprietors. That is why our colleague, Minister Ng, the minister for small business, has been working on this and will continue to make sure we take the appropriate steps to recognize that. Meanwhile, people can definitely come to the regional development agencies if they don't have access to funding through banks, and that's a good way to make sure there is a backstop.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Please note that, pursuant to the Standing Order made on April20 and May26, the House has been recalled. Therefore, the committee will adjourn, and the House will begin sitting at 2:30p.m. The bells will be rung to call members, and a parade will begin the sitting. The meeting is adjourned.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" } ]

[ { "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 20thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. As a reminder to all members, in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not be connected to the video conference. I want to remind those who are participating by video conference that, when they talk, they must use the channel that corresponds to the language they are speaking in. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. We are moving on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on. We will now move on to document submissions. The honourable minister, Mr. Blair.", "speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2019 annual report on the RCMPs use of the law enforcement justification provisions. This report addresses the RCMP's use of specified provisions within the law enforcement justification regime, which is set out in subsections 25 to 25 of the Criminal Code. This report also documents the nature of the investigations in which these provisions were used.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)" }, { "content": "On tabling of documents, we have Minister Sajjan.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 32, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2018-19 progress report on Canada's national action plan for the implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security.", "speaker": "Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence)" }, { "content": "Now we'll go to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of a special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Members who are participating in the meeting in person are kindly asked to bring the signed certificate to the office once the petition has been presented. Presenting petitions, Ms. May.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to present two petitions. They both pertain to the protection of our natural world. One is an e-petition, and it relates to the threat to pollinators globally. We know that honey bees and other pollinators are essential to food production. The petitioners note that research from around the world points to a threat to pollinators, particularly from a class of pesticides known as neonicotinoids. The European Union has taken action on this. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to practise a precautionary principle and remove from use neonicotinoids in Canada to protect our pollinators. The second petition relates to the ongoing threat to the southern resident killer whales. These iconic whales are much beloved in SaanichGulf Islands, throughout coastal British Columbia and indeed across Canada. The petitioners are calling for more action to be taken as the population of southern resident killer whales continues to decline, more action for boat-free safety zones, more prohibitions around whale tourism to make sure that the whales are safe from those who are keen to watch them from too close a distance, and more of a credible enforcement regime to support these measures to keep the southern resident killer whale population in our waters and not on the list of species that have become extinct.", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Genuis.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, for over 10 years, members of Parliament from various parties have been trying to pass legislation to deal with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. Irwin Cotler, Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Senator Salma Ataullahjan and I have all proposed bills on this. The petitioners want the House to support Bill S-204. This is another bill that would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. I'm sure petitioners would want me to add that, given the urgency of this issue, perhaps the government could consider bringing forward a government bill on this issue, which would allow the process to move much faster.", "speaker": "Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise here today to present a petition from Canadian citizens in support of motion M-1, which was placed in this House by my colleague the member for New WestminsterBurnaby on the green new deal. These citizens point out that climate change has escalated into a global climate emergency and that Canada must act with ambition and urgency. They call on the government to support M-1, a made in Canada green new deal, to take bold and rapid action to adopt socially equitable climate action to tackle the climate emergency and address worsening socio-economic and racial inequalities at the same time while ending fossil fuel subsidies, closing offshore tax havens, and supporting workers impacted by the transition by creating well-paying, unionized jobs in the shift to a clean and renewable energy economy.", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Johns.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and privilege to table e-petition 2577, which was sponsored by Chris Alemany from Port Alberni and is supported by 5,183 petitioners. They're calling on the Government of Canada to work urgently across party lines and in partnership with provincial and territorial governments to implement a guaranteed, consistent, national and livable universal basic income system for all Canadians. The petition is very timely, coming almost one year to the day since the completion of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which also called on the government to establish a guaranteed annual livable income for all Canadians. Whether it's about providing a safety net to get through a global pandemic, the means to keep your children out of poverty at any time, or simply being able to afford safe housing or transportation, it's time for Canada to have this conversation.", "speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Manly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and a privilege to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of NanaimoLadysmith. People are concerned about gas fracking and the use of methane and the destruction that methane causes to our atmosphere and with climate change. They're calling on the government to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on the Wet'suwet'en territory, and by ordering the RCMP to dismantle their exclusion zone and to stand down. They also call on the government to schedule nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentswhich is something that we're happy to see has been happening and I commend the government for that effortand to prioritize the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.", "speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)" }, { "content": "Next is Mr. Lamoureux.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, like Canada, Guyana is part of the Commonwealth, and many constituents of Winnipeg North have raised the issue with regard to the presidential election back in March, when it was being called into question. There have been some very positive indications in recent days, but the petitioners are asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to be aware of what's taking place in Guyana, and as much as possible, to be advocates for democracy and make sure that we're being diligent in supporting what the people of Guyana want to see.", "speaker": "Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.)" }, { "content": "I just want to remind the honourable members, when presenting petitions, to be as concise as possible. I notice they're starting to stretch a bit and it's something we all tend to do. Now we'll go to Statements by Members. The first statement will be from Mr. Lefebvre.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID-19. I am proud of all my constituents, and all Canadians, including first responders, volunteers, health care and essential workers, local miners, the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families, and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff. I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks; Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer; Nobel Prize winner SNOLAB's work on ventilators, which earned a federal contract; Vale Canada's $1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID-19 health solutions; and many more. We are all in the same boat, but we will get out of it together.", "speaker": "Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Sudbury, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Dalton.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Pitt Meadows is one of Canada's most beautiful communities. It's tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain. Most of the area consists of farmland, golf courses, parks and conservation areas. It also has Pitt Lake, which is among the largest freshwater tidal lakes in the world. Pitt Meadows' history dates back thousands of years with Katzie First Nation. In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for today's bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries. It's hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nation's busiest general aviation airports. Last weekend the community came together to celebrate Pitt Meadows Day a little differently because of COVID. In a great show of community spirit, from their front yards and balconies, thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city. I am thankful to have raised my family here, taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community.", "speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Kelloway.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times. Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been, it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through. Whether it is someone like Glen Muise, who delivers iPads to seniors' homes so they can connect with loved ones, teachers who deliver meals to students in need, Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas, two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast, or Rose Fitzgerald, who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county, constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need. Mr. Chair, as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso. The people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia care deeply about one another. They know that as a community, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable people, and I cannot help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding. Thanks so much.", "speaker": "Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape BretonCanso, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Ms. Brub, go ahead.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash, whose commitment I commend, to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec. The Bloc is open to the idea, but we shouldn't wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action. There are already potential solutions for taking action. Commissions have been issuing reports for decades, and Ottawa has been tabling them. Last year alone, the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations. The federal government must work with indigenous peoples, Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces. Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP. Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures. Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the long-overdue reconciliation. Let's take action.", "speaker": "Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ)" }, { "content": "I give the floor to Mr.MacKinnon.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues, I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020. We know that, owing to the pandemic, graduation celebrations will be different this year, as students will be deprived of their prom, their graduation ceremony and, in some cases, their goodbyes to friends and teachers. I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant, LeCarrefour, Nicolas-Gatineau, de l'rablire, Collge Saint-Alexandre, Collge Nouvelles Frontires, Collge Saint-Joseph, Philemon-Wright and other regional schools, are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis. However, that takes nothing away from their accomplishment. So when they receive their diploma, here is what I will say to them: Surge ahead! The future belongs to you. Be ambitious, follow your dreams and, most importantly, continue to change the Outaouais and the world! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time.", "speaker": "Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Morantz.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre, which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg. This state-of-the-art addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott, Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce, who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011. The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community. I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council. The addictions crisis in Canada needs action. With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions, we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction. I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality. Addictions affect us all, and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution.", "speaker": "Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Jowhari.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill. Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty. I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services. I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which, upon receiving these donations, redoubled their efforts to serve their communities. Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation Long-Term Care Centre, Divine Favour Senior Homecare, the Community & Home Assistance to Seniors, the True Compassion Home Health centre, Blue Door, the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program, Yellow Brick House, Hill House Hospice, Community Living York South, and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill. The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament.", "speaker": "Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Madam Lalonde.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Usually, at this time of the year, I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans. However, we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year. I cannot express enough how, in these exceptional times, I have witnessed the strength, resilience and community spirit of our graduates. I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class. Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school, the cole secondaire catholique Batrice-Desloges, had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success. As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future. We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them. We will not fail. I thank the teachers, the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work. Congratulations to all graduates of 2020.", "speaker": "Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Vis.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives. For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely. The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit, most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection, even though Internet is an essential service. Those in underserved areas, including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, cannot work from home and their children cannot keep up with their classmates. For many of my indigenous constituents, Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies don't want to serve them. I, along with my colleagues, launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions. We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada. This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved.", "speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. McLeod.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada has been awarded its first-ever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme. Congratulations go to Lutsl K' Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation, with support from Deninu K'ue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area. It's 14,000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you'll find anywhere on earth. I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canada's $7.9-million commitment, along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year. The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large. Congratulations to Lutsl K'.", "speaker": "Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Falk.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Liberal government has tabled $87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study, debate and pass it. The allocated time is wholly inadequate. Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent. They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament. It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this government's spending. It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy. It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal government's programs fail to meet their intended goals. A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy. Canadians are owed better. Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting, parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do.", "speaker": "Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC)" }, { "content": "We now go to Mr. Godin.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Our planet is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. Our daily lives have been turned upside down. I am thinking of you, our seniors, valuable individuals who built our country. You have gone through a very restrictive confinement. You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families. Our students also had to adapt. Their school year was turned on its head. Our graduating class, especially, saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish. The future belongs to them. They must follow their dreams. I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things. We have all taken on our important responsibility, that of following the guidelines. The results have been most compelling in my riding. I want to say how proud I am to represent you here, in the Canadian Parliament. I thank each and everyone of you. You are helping PortneufJacques-Cartier flourish. You have shown resilience, creativity, innovation and solidarity. That is commendable. Together, we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger.", "speaker": "Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Gazan.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg, led by women and non-binary individuals, who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality. We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism. We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power. We will speak out against police violence. We will speak out against systemic racism. We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us, not abuse us. We will call out those who abuse their power. We will rise. We will rise. We will rise. To all the women and non-binary folks who are standing, I say, let's continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected. Our liberation is intertwined. Solidarity.", "speaker": "Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)" }, { "content": "Mrs.DeBellefeuille, go ahead.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID-19. However, the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister. First, he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition, while the economic recovery must be prepared. He is refusing to provide an economic update, even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic. He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers. The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave, and not after it. Finally, today, he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed. He is behaving as if he had a majority government. This is not a time for recklessness. Governing means anticipating. I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together.", "speaker": "Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Uppal.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic. I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods' Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors. Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and Dil-E-Punjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals. Sikh Youth Edmonton delivered free groceries to families, seniors and students. Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton. The Bhartiya Cultural Society Hindu temple provided free meals to anyone who needed them. Punjab Insurance and The Punjab chain of restaurants provided free meals in downtown Edmonton. The staff, nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy. I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength, resilience and compassion as we move forward together.", "speaker": "Hon. Tim Uppal (Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now proceed to Mr. Fonseca.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today is Portugal Day, celebrated both in Portugal and around the world by Portuguese. In Canada, June has been recognized as Portuguese Heritage Month. We're truly happy to recognize the great contributions made by Canadians of Portuguese descent. This year is a difficult one, though, for all of us, including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation. Our prayers and well wishes are with everyone. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times. Your warmth, hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally. As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family, I know this year will be a lot different from previous years. I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal, and please continue to support our local businesses. ", "speaker": "Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We now begin the period of questions for ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for sitting to substitute each other very safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister is doing everything to avoid being accountable to Canadians. He is refusing to table a budget, refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work. Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities, but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that. I hope the opposition parties will allow a vote and a debate in the House on this important bill.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister wants parliamentarians to vote on aspects of the government's spending. We want the Auditor General to be able to examine that government spending. Under the government, the Auditor General has had to do more with less, and her ability to conduct audits is being affected. The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits, despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending. I have a simple question. Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job, yes or no?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor General's office in 2018-19, and the equivalent of 38 full-time staff were added. We support the Auditor General, unlike the Conservative government, which fired 60 people from the Auditor General's office. We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon, and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "The Prime Minister is again engaged in revisionist history. He well knows that it was the Auditor General's office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies, which did not affect its ability to do the job. In fact, as the interim auditor general, John Wiersema, said, We would not have proposed if we didnt think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament. Only the government's refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor General's ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve, and we wonder why. This is the government that cannot explain where 20,000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars' worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone. They can't identify that. Then there is, of course, the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank, which has completed precisely zero projects. Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, talking of revisionist history, Stephen Harper's Conservatives cut $6.5 million from the Auditor General's budget and fired 60 staff. On the contrary, we worked with the Auditor General's office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new full-time staff. We will continue to demonstrate openness and transparency. We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament, whom the Conservatives, in their time in office, showed no respect for. We will continue to move forward in a way that has led, for example, to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians. The Conservatives don't seem to want that debate or vote.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position. The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did, so I understand why he likes to live in the past. In May, the interim auditor general said, Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. With our current resources, we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year. That's half the number of audits, despite a massive explosion in government spending. The Auditor General's office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done. Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor General's office, yes or no?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we very much look forward to working with the new Auditor General to ensure that her office has the ability to continue the important audits and transparency measures that are foundational to our institutions. Speaking of what is foundational to our institutions, this afternoon we're putting forward a bill that would help Canadians across the country, and we've proposed to debate and vote on that bill. It actually looks like the Conservatives and other opposition parties might not want this. They have been complaining about not having debates and votes in Parliament, and now they're proposing not to have them. That's a little head-scratching. We hope they're going to help Canadians.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "We will continue with Mr.Blanchet.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We may have a chance here to replace a problem with a good opportunity. This morning, we heard many groups and organizations that represent people with a disability express their concerns over the bill introduced by the government, which I feel is chocolate pudding containing cod liver oil. We agree with the chocolate pudding. We are favourable to helping people with a disability. People don't know the rules. They don't knowI am telling them nowthat a bill can be divided. It can be cut into parts and voted on in parts. The rest of the bill can be enhanced. I am saying to the Prime Minister that, if he presents the part on disabled individuals, it will be passed at the speed of light. He won't even see it happen. Is he prepared to divide the bill, so that we can work together to help people with a disability?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ)" }, { "content": "The bill that we are proposing this afternoon will certainly help people living with disabilities. We can always recognize that this is important, and every party should be open to it. We will also increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit from four-week intervals to two weeks. We will also expand the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses will have access to it. I am always willing to work with members of the opposition to ensure that we adopt these measures, all or some of the measures. We want to help Canadians. We look forward to debating and voting on this later today.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "It is a glorious day. I heard all or some of the measures. That means that we are not adopting them all at the same time and that the bill is being split. Can the Prime Minister confirm that he is in fact going to split his bill so that we can address the various components separately, since they have nothing to do with each other, and improve them, in keeping with our mandate as elected officials?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "Our goal on this side of the House, and it is shared by all members of the House, is to help Canadians during the pandemic. We have put forward a number of measures that will help Canadians in a tangible way. Yes, that includes Canadians living with disabilities, but it also includes businesses that cannot, but should be able to, access the wage subsidy. In addition, we are going to make the Canada emergency response benefit more flexible. I look forward to continuing the discussions", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchet has the floor.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "We almost had some clarity, but one swallow does not make a summer. Yes, there is a need for discussions on the Canada emergency response benefit. The government says that it wants to transform the program into something very coercive, without admitting that the lack of an employment incentive has essentially sabotaged another program, the wage subsidy. That deserves some thought. That is what we are elected to do. We do not need to spend eight months on this, we can fix it in a few hours. When the government says that we are going to have to vote on this, it means rubber stamping its bill. We have the right to debate it, to have discussions and to improve it. I watched the election on the night of October21. It was a beautiful night. It was more fun than a hockey game. People elected a minority government. Can the government admit that?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "We are not proposing only to vote on this bill this afternoon, we are proposing to debate it. It is the role and responsibility of all of us in the House to exchange ideas and to work together to help Canadians. That is exactly what we are proposing this afternoon. It is about helping people with disabilities, increasing the flexibility of the CERB, and expanding the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses have access to it. I look forward to debating this with my colleagues opposite.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchet, you have 43seconds left.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "That will be enough. I would be remiss if I allowed the Prime Minister to mislead people quite unintentionallyI say this in accordance with the Standing Orders. When we introduce a bill, we discuss it at second reading, we vote, we continue to discuss it and we send it to committee. All that can be done very quickly. However, we must be able to amend and improve this bill. That is how the normal Parliament works. The government doesn't like being in a minority situation. It behaves as if it were a majority government, but it is not. Can we follow the real procedures of Parliament, do a proper job, and then have a vote that is likely to suit the majority of members, not just the Prime Minister?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, my hon. colleague seems to completely forget that we are going through a pandemic. The COVID-19 crisis requires different actions on our part. That is why we provided the text of the bill to the opposition parties four days ago. We have been working with them for hours over the past three or four days to amend the bill, if they had amendments to propose. That is how we are taking action to help Canadians quickly during this crisis, and that is what we will continue to do.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Singh, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities, will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit. We hope to be able to debate it.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "As I said, Mr. Chair, discussions are ongoing on that, but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them, as we have been.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, a family that needs to buy groceries can't take those pretty words and buy groceries with them. We're asking the Prime Minister to extend the CERB for families in need. Will the Prime Minister do that, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to be there for Canadians in the right way. We are engaged with stakeholders, with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I can tell you what the right way is. Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he's an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened. He is now dependent on the CERB. He wants to go back to work, but there's no work. He sent an email saying he's faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he's frightened that if the CERB runs out, and it is planned to run out at the end of this month, then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet. Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, and as we have been saying from the beginning, we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it. The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon. We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities, to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB. He doesn't even want to debate those things. He doesn't even want to be voting on them. Will the NDP allow us to move forward on these important measures for Canadians?", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, let's talk about those measures. One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities. Now the government's plan is only going to help 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40%, or a significant portion, of people with disabilities, he wants to help none of them, because he's not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill. That's unfortunate. We're always happy to look at how we can do more. We have demonstrated from the beginning that we want to do more for Canadians. I look forward to working with the NDP. I am hoping those members change their minds and allow us to have an important debate this afternoon.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Let's talk about the 60% who aren't being helped. They are veterans living with disabilities, those who receive CPP and those who receive disability payments. Often it's the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who won't be helped with the plan the government is proposing. Will the government help all Canadians living with disabilities?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our proposal will help 100% of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit, including many veterans. The fact is that we are there to support the disability community. We are there to support Canadians with disabilities. Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation?", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Singh, we have 43 seconds for a question and an answer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, that's the exact problem with the Liberal proposal. It's a tax credit approach, which excludes the vast majority of Canadians living with disabilities. That is the wrong approach. We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB, if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities, we will move forward. Will the government do that?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I have said from the beginning, we look forward to continuing to work with the members opposite to keep moving forward to help Canadians. However, we need the opposition parties to actually choose to help Canadians and not to play political games. I hope we're going to be able to actually have a debate and a vote on this important legislation this afternoon.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "We're now going to take a short pause to allow staff to change up in a safe way respecting COVID-19 procedure. The floor now goes to Mr. Rayes.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, can the Prime Minister tell us whether we will have an economic update by the end of June?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. It is of course very important to be transparent. When the situation is stable, we will have", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)" }, { "content": "Once again, the floor goes to Mr.Rayes.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, most of the provinces in Canada are working on tabling economic updates by the end of June. Why is the Liberal government unable to do so as well?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "I understand the importance of transparency and that is why we are trying every day to explain our investments to Canadians and to continue to be transparent with them.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "The Liberal government announced hundreds of billions of dollars in new spending during the pandemic, but it still refuses to provide an economic update in order to be transparent with Canadians. In times of crisis, monitoring the situation is more important than ever. I repeat my question: why does this government not want to table an economic update by the end of June, when the provinces are doing so?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "Every day, we explain the economic situation, our investments, the changes we are making, and our programs to improve the situation of Canadians during the pandemic. We will continue our approach to being transparent.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself does not understand why the federal government cannot deliver an economic update when the provinces can. Why are the government and the minister defying the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is an independent officer and is requesting an economic update?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "We will continue with our approach, which is one of transparency. We know that it's very difficult to make projections given the very dynamic nature of the situation. We think our approach of providing information daily is appropriate and we will continue to be transparent about our investments.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "That is incredible. When we listen to the minister and the Prime Minister talk, you would think we were in the pesky terrible twos phase that children go through, when they keep saying no, no, no. I find it funny that the provinces are able to table an economic update in a crisis situation. The opposition parties are asking for it, as are experts and officials. When the time comes for the government to listen to the scientists, it has no problem doing so. However, if people do not think like the government, it ignores them. The provinces are doing it, the opposition parties are calling for it and the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. Why will the Minister of Finance not table an economic update so that all members of Parliament can do their verification work?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "I will continue to provide daily information on our measures and investments. Projections are clearly very difficult to make. However, when the situation is more stable, we will be able to provide more information to Canadians. In the meantime, we will be adapting to the situation on a daily basis and making sure that we have the information we need to make our decisions and to make sure that Canadians understand our situation.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 45seconds left.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, one month ago, the Prime Minister announced with great fanfare that the eligibility criteria for the $40,000emergency loans for businesses would be more flexible to help self-employed entrepreneurs and businesses that pay themselves dividends to have access to them. However, as of todayit has been four weeks since that announcementbusinesses are still banging their heads on the doors of their financial institutions. They do not have access to the information because it is not available on official websites. In addition, even senior officials confirmed to me during a technical call on June2, last Tuesday, that this information would not be available for several weeks. Can the Minister of Finance, who says he wants to act quickly to help our businesses, explain why, after four weeks, it is still not possible to get the information the Prime Minister promised us from his doorstep?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have been listening and responding to small businesses and entrepreneurs across the country. In fact, we have even announced the expansion of the program's eligibility criteria to include many owner-managed small businesses with payrolls of less than$20,000. The new criteria have forced financial institutions to adapt to be able to provide this program to new applicants. We are working around the clock to ensure that we are able to promptly provide small businesses across the country with the assistance they need.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance)" }, { "content": "We will now proceed to Mr. Allison.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's unemployment rate stands at 13.7%. That's the highest it's been in almost four decades. Many industries, like travel, hospitality and tourism, are getting crushed. We rely on a lot of hospitality and tourism in my riding of Niagara West. Can the government tell us what their plans are to help the travel, hospitality and tourism industry that so many of my constituents depend on?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison (Niagara West, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his important question. I had a good conversation with the mayor of Niagara Falls recently, and we believe in the importance of the tourism sector. That's exactly why we've extended the wage subsidy until the end of August. There is the CEBA loan, the $40,000 loan. There is also spending through FedDev in my colleague's region. If he has clear, specific projects in the tourism sector that he needs help with, I would ask that he please come and see me and have a conversation.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the message from the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Perrin Beatty, and also other industries, is that we need a clear and coherent plan from this government because there's a whole hodgepodge of regulations and confusion about what's going to happen through the strategy. What I've told the government is that we need a strategy to reflect local conditions that is consistent and has a clear timeline so that businesses can begin to open safely and with confidence. What is the government doing to make this happen?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we absolutely agree. It is important for businesses to have an understanding of the programs that we've put in place. We have been consulting with businesses on the appropriate way to extend the wage subsidy so that we can continue to support businesses as they turn towards a safe restart. We've also looked very carefully at how we can ensure that the programs that we've put forward", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Allison.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has come way short of meeting the Canadian demand for personal protective equipment. Some equipment procured from overseas has been substandard and couldn't be used. Because of the shortage, in my riding of Niagara West, dentists have to pay up to 10 times the amount for an N95 mask. Compared to early March, when will the government finally begin to produce enough PPE in Canada to meet Canadian demand?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. We have mobilized over 700 Canadian companies to help them retool and rescale their efforts to make more personal protective equipment in Canada as part of a made-in-Canada initiative. We're going to continue to work with industry to build up domestic capacity.", "speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)" }, { "content": "Global News is reporting that Canada is struggling to secure a reliable source of PPE. What's the evidence of this? We know that the government procured 10 million substandard N95 masks that couldn't be used. Masks were sent back to suppliers for having flaws. We received mouldy swabs to be used in COVID-19 tests. Planes are arriving empty that should have been filled with PPE, and we received less than 5% of our total order of gloves. It's clear that Canada needs to rely on Canada for PPE. When will this government finally begin to take PPE equipment issues seriously and make enough in Canada to meet demands by Canadians?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the honourable member's questions were tainted with inaccuracies. Regarding the flights that returned from China without federal cargo, Air Canada did reimburse the federal government for that amount. In addition, with regard to the N95 masks that were referenced, the Government of Canada will not pay for masks that it does not use. Furthermore, as my colleague Minister Bains just stated, we are mobilizing and retooling the domestic industry. Over half of the face shields that we have received were produced in Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)" }, { "content": "At a time when the Prime Minister has ordered Canadians to stay home and businesses to remain closed, at a time when Canadians have had to say goodbye to their relatives over Skype, at a time when Canadians are not allowed to get married, at a time when Canadians are being fined for taking their kids to the park, at a time when restaurants are being fined $800 for allowing customers to eat outside and not being socially distanced, in these times, the Prime Minister's son attended a mass gathering with thousands of people while not socially distancing. Mr. Chair, why is it that there seems to be one set of rules in this country for some people but a different set for the Prime Minister? Why the double standard?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as the member knows, this country has been gripped with the need to stand up with one another to fight the experience of racism that so many Canadians live with and that so many of our American cousins live with. As the member knows, local public health sets advice for regions that he specified, and I would encourage all Canadians to check with local public health advice before they resume activities.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)" }, { "content": "Now we'll go to Mr. Chiu.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Many Canadian veterans are noticing that medical providers are increasing their costs. Everything is more expensive these days, including medicine, etc. It can take upwards of a year for Veterans Affairs to adjust their rate scale to compensate, and they do not allow for retroactive reimbursement. What are the government's actions to alleviate this hardship for our men and women who stood guard for this country, our veterans?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu (StevestonRichmond East, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the fact is that when we inherited the government, Veterans Affairs needed a lot of support from government. In fact, at that time, we invested $10 billion to make sure that Veterans Affairs was put in place and that we could provide the appropriate supports for veterans, like the pension for life, the centre of excellence on PTSD and the chronic pain centre of excellence. All of these things are so important. We have to realize that with government previously", "speaker": "Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs)" }, { "content": "We'll now go back to Mr. Chiu.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister, for answeringor respondingto my question, although that really did not provide an answer, in my humble opinion. Part of the side effect of spending hundreds of millions of dollars is inflation. My constituents in StevestonRichmond East are overwhelmingly finding this government's support for seniors inadequate. The opposition has put forward clear proposals, such as a one-time tax-free withdrawal being allowed for an RRSP or a RRIF. So far, the government has not taken any action on this. Why is the government ignoring suggestions to help Canadian seniors?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I want seniors to know that they are not alone. To help preserve their registered retirement income fund assets, we are reducing minimum withdrawals by 25% for 2020. We're also providing direct financial support so that seniors can get the help they need now. As the market is volatile during this time, we continue to look at all ways that we can best help seniors during this difficult time.", "speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Hong Kong government has arrested 9,000 civilians just in the past year. This is equivalent to the arrest of 42,000 people, proportional to Canada's population. It is anticipated that more unjust incarcerations will occur as Beijing imposes the national security law in Hong Kong. Has our government started preparing a list of names for Magnitsky-style sanctions, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as we have said, we and our allies are deeply concerned with Beijing's decision to impose a national security law on Hong Kong. With hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in its stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. The proposed law would also undermine the one country, two systems framework.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport)" }, { "content": "I thank the minister for responding. Again, however, words are not enough. It's time for action, because the Chinese embassy has said, in response to Canada's expressed concern, that they deplore, reject and condemn our response and our concerns thus far. What are the conditions for this government using Magnitsky sanctions should China continue to incarcerate Canadians and jeopardize the human rights of its citizens?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been very clear. We will continue to encourage all parties to engage in peaceful and meaningful dialogue to address the legitimate concerns expressed by the Hong Kong population. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chiu, we have about 22 seconds, so you have time for a very quick question and hopefully a very quick answer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Okay, here's a quick question. The Communist Chinese government has lied about COVID-19. They have issued statements against Canada and they have yet to release the two Canadians being held hostage. My constituents are concerned over this. When will this government listen to Canadians and call for a stronger, more effective and truly independent international investigation into COVID-19's origin?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "The honourable minister has 22 seconds or less, please.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we are dealing with a global pandemic, COVID-19. It is critically important that all countries in the world work together in a transparent, open and respectful manner so that we understand what is going on and how we can bring it to an end as quickly as possible.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "The next question will come from Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, if the government orders someone who has been exposed to a confirmed COVID case into a 14-day quarantine, why won't the government allow them to take an antibody test to lift the quarantine so they can go back to work?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (RenfrewNipissingPembroke, CPC)" }, { "content": "As the member opposite may or may not know, testing strategies are determined by provinces and territories. Furthermore, the testing of a particular person has to be done at the right point in time", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, there have already been some tests that have been approved. My friend and colleague here, Colin Carrie, from the constituency of Oshawa, has a constituent who has a test. It's 90% accurate and it's being sold to the United States and other countries. Why won't they provide a DIN number to it so that Canadians have access to it as well, regardless of which province or territory they live in?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I think the member is talking about two separate things. Any test kit that would be approved by Health Canada would be accessible to wherever that company chose to market that test kit. Furthermore, it's really important that test kits that are approved by Health Canada be accurate and have been tested with rigour with regard to their ability to provide credible and accurate information to the people who are using that test.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the test has proven to have an accuracy rate of 90% in identifying whether or not an individual has antibodies. Why won't she allow it to be used here?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I am happy to follow up with the member opposite's office when she is able to provide me with the name of the company. As you can imagine, there are many vendors trying to", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "How long will it take for an antibody test to be approved by this government once you have the name of the company and the test and the evidence in front of you?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Before we go to the honourable minister, I just want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair and not directly. Go ahead, Minister.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "We have an expedited process that could be completed in as little as five to seven days, depending on the accuracy of the test and the information supplied by the vendor.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, will Health Canada use reputable data from other countries to speed their determinations about antibody effectiveness, or just continue to withhold access?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Canadians expect us, at Health Canada, to ensure the accuracy and the safety of all equipment approved for use in Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chairman, if the minister can approve tests and studies within five days, why is it taking over 30, over 60, or over 90 days to approve an antibody test that exists?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "I appreciate the member opposite's interest in urgent and quick approvals; however, sometimes, depending on the company, there may be further questions and further tests that need to be run to ensure the accuracy or safety of that equipment. Should she wish me to check into the process for a particular", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We will go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Have officials provided the government with a target for a daily antibody test to complete an initial survey or the initial phase of a study?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is talking about the work of the immunity task force, which is, as you know, a group of scientists who have been funded by the Government of Canada", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We'll go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, would the minister please provide the names of the people on the task force to which she just referred?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I will forward those names to the office of the member opposite.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "I hope that will be within the next two days or so, and not wait until after the crisis has passed, Mr. Chairman. Why isn't the Prime Minister showing as much fervour for antibody testing as he is for getting a vaccine on the market?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I reject the premise of that question. In fact, the Prime Minister has shown fervour for all aspects of dealing with the coronavirus from the very inception of the virus on the world stage. To allege otherwise is quite disingenuous.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We'll go on to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "When will the government give the Auditor General the funds she needs to do her job?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC)" }, { "content": "First, Mr. Chair, I would like to offer my congratulations to the new Auditor General for her appointment. On behalf of the government, I would also like to offer her our full support and collaboration", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage)" }, { "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "I share the minister's wish to congratulate the new Auditor General on her position. I will now ask him again when he will give her the funds she needs to do her job.", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, her role is essential to our democracy. We are eager to work with her. She's more than welcome to share her concerns directly with the government. I can assure her that my", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I didn't ask him if he would like to work with the Auditor General. I asked him if he will give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job.", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our government has added 38 permanent staff positions to her office, while the Conservative government, under their leadership, cut the funding for more than 60", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "We'll move on to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, through you, I caution the minister to not mislead this House. If he will look at the committee transcripts of the time, he will know that it was the Auditor General's decision to reduce their own budget. The Conservatives did not cut positions. That is a matter of fact. The point is that the Auditor General now does not have the money to do her job. She has cut performance audits and she has stopped work on performance audits. When will this government give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "With us, it was 38 new positions, Mr. Chair. With them, it was 60 positions fewer.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has drastically expanded its spending and is avoiding accountability in every way it can. The finance committee yesterday, with the support of Liberal backbench MPs who are on that committee, unanimously passed a motion to fund the Auditor General in full so that her office can do her job. If this minister will not listen to me, will he at least listen to his own backbenchers?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our government is fully committed to supporting the important and ongoing work of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament. If the Auditor General identifies the need for additional resources, we will work with the Office of the Auditor General to ensure that they have all the resources they need to continue fulfilling their mandate efficiently and effectively.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Auditor General has consistently, since 2018, told this government that the office doesn't have enough funds. It's not a mystery. The Auditor General has told the public accounts committee that it cannot do its job. It's the first time in history that the Auditor General has had to tell public accounts that they don't have the resources to do their job. It's not a matter of if the Auditor General needs more funds. The Auditor General couldn't be more clear. When will this government actually do the right thing and fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, maybe I'm not making myself clear in English. I will switch to my native tongue, French, in case it becomes clearer. If the Auditor General identifies a need for additional resources, we will work with her to ensure that her office can continue to deliver its mandate efficiently and effectively. In addition, our government worked with the Auditor General to increase funding in 2018-09. With this increase, the office was able to add the equivalent of 38new full-time staff to its team. That's 38more employees", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "The floor goes to Mr.Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this isn't an if situation. The Auditor General has already told this government that her office does not have funds. This has been ongoing since 2018. I would ask the minister to please stop with the platitudes and actually just say yes or no. Will the government give the Auditor General the money that the Auditor General has already asked for?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we have already increased the budget of the Office of the Auditor General in the 2018-19 period.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Before we continue, we're going to suspend for a second to bring in the next chair.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "There's a point of order.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.))" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I know that no member would knowingly mislead the House. No member wants to do that. It's always customary to give members a chance to correct the record, so I call upon the minister to do so now, and perhaps even the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister misled the House in his response to a question. I have here the transcripts of the public accounts committee, and they will confirm that the", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "This is beginning to sound a bit like debate. We will proceed. Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. First, I would like to take this opportunity to say hi from Portugal. I would also like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague and friend, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean. Obrigado. While Quebec estimates its additional health care costs related to COVID-19 at $3billion, Ottawa is transferring around $115million, which is not even4%. Does the government recognize that this is clearly insufficient?", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, we invested an initial $500 million in transfers to the provinces and territories to manage the extreme pressure put on health care systems as a result of their supporting people living with COVID and in preventing COVID. We want to thank the provinces and territories for their work, and as the member opposite knows, we will continue to be there for the provinces and territories. This is a significant transfer, and we think", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, the minister says that this is a substantial transfer. Yes, it is a lot of money. The government is giving about $115million to Quebec, but that is not even 4%of what is being requested. Does the minister recognize that much more is needed?", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie" }, { "content": "We have been working with the provinces and territories from the beginning to respond to the crisis. We have increased health care transfers, provided medical protective equipment and responded to all requests for assistance. We have been able to make so much progress in the fight against COVID-19 precisely because of this co-operation. Stirring up an imaginary quarrel between the federal government and Quebec", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, it isn't about squabbling, it's about needs. The share that the federal government is giving isn't enough. We should act now, before we see a possible second wave. What we're seeing today are the results of massive disinvestment by the federal government in health care. This isn't good enough. The government must act quickly. Can the government commit to better funding to the health care sector and to organizing a meeting with Quebec and the provinces on this exact topic, in September at the latest? We can't afford to wait.", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie" }, { "content": "The hon. minister's response will have to be brief.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, with respect to the transfers to provinces and territories, the member opposite knows that our government, in our last mandate, significantly increased transfers to the provinces and territories for health services, including mental health and home care services. In fact, the funding we're providing is in addition to the $40 billion that was transferred", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. Tudo bem? Tudo bom? Today in La Presse, we learned that the government has extended its military presence in long-term care homes. Can the minister confirm this information, and can he also confirm that the presence of these 500soldiers is indeed in response to a request from the Government of Quebec?", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, let me assure the member that when Quebec made a request for assistance at the beginning of April, we answered the call. When they asked for an extension of that, we said we would continue to provide that assistance. I had a conversation today with Minister Guilbault, my counterpart in Quebec, and we have renewed our commitment to continuing to provide assistance. That assistance can take additional forms and can include involving the Canadian Red Cross, but we remain committed to providing the assistance that Quebec needs.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "If I understand correctly, negotiations are still under way with the Government of Quebec, even though it needs these soldiers. The mission ends Friday. This isn't really the time to negotiate anymore. We have to make sure that the military will stay in our long-term care homes as long as we need their services in Quebec, and until new attendants have been trained. Can the minister confirm that the mission will indeed be extended?", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe" }, { "content": "I'd like to assure this House that we have assured Quebec that the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to provide support until such time as other trained professional people are able to do that job. We're working very hard with the Province of Quebec. We're working with the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross. We will be there for Quebeckers because they need our help, and as long as they need our help, we'll be there to support them.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "This isn't the time to play cat-and-mouse. The only thing we have to do is to give the Government of Quebec what it's asking for. Quebec pays 23%of the army's budget, so Quebeckers are entitled to this support. Quebec has more than 5,000deaths from COVID-19, 90%of which have been in seniors' residences or long-term care homes. The military's presence is vital because they play an extraordinary and essential role. Will the minister commit to extending the mission now and putting an end to this uncertainty? It's certainly bad for both the military and the health care workers, who rely on this support.", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe" }, { "content": "The hon. minister has 10seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Again, Madam Chair, let me be very clear. We have made a commitment to the Province of Quebec that we will continue to provide that support until the middle of September, exactly as they have requested, but we are also working to ensure that we have an sustainable, effective solution to the request that Quebec has made, so we're working with the Province of Quebec, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross to ensure the help that is needed is there.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "We will go now to Bryan May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure and an honour to be with you all today. I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member of Parliament for Scarborough North. Madam Chair, COVID-19 continues to create challenges for all Canadians, including those with disabilities, and exacerbates those experienced by Canadians with disabilities. As we mark the end of National AccessAbility Week, I would like to remind our colleagues that our commitment to making Canada more inclusive and equitable is ongoing, including our passing of the Accessible Canada Act. Would the minister inform the House about the government's plans to support Canadians with disabilities who are experiencing increased costs due to COVID-19?", "speaker": "Mr. Bryan May (Cambridge, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, last week was the first National AccessAbility Week that was legislated under the historic Accessible Canada Act, and I thank every party in this House for the consent they gave to that legislation. I'm hoping we have the same spirit of camaraderie for people with disabilities this afternoon. Since the beginning, Madam Chair, we have taken a disability inclusion approach on how we support people with disabilities in this time of pandemic, including the establishment of our COVID-19 disability advisory group, which has given us invaluable advice. I thank them so much for their contributions to our efforts. Last week we announced a suite of measures to support people with disabilities that complement existing measures that are in place. This includes a one-time payment of $600 to 1.25 million citizens with disabilities, which again is the subject matter of the legislation this afternoon, as well as a $15-million investment in an accessible workplace initiative that will ensure, moving forward.... We know that as we move back into employment situations it will be very tough for people with disabilities. Finally, there are five really exciting accessible technology initiatives, including working on point-of-sale terminals for Canadians who are blind or visually impaired.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)" }, { "content": "You may have a very short question, Mr. May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her department for all the work they are doing to ensure that accessibility is at the forefront of everybody's mind through this crisis.", "speaker": "Mr. Bryan May" }, { "content": "Mr. Chen is next.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as humanity battles COVID-19, we are confronted by the stark realities of another disease. On May 25, George Floyd fell unconscious and died as a police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes. This all happened after the 46-year-old black man was handcuffed and put in a position where he could do no harm. In Canada, we have come a long way since Viola Desmond, yet there is much more to do. Anti-black racism is institutionalized, hidden under dominant narratives of a free and multicultural society. Hatred has no boundaries, whether it is against black communities or is anti-Asian sentiment fuelled by COVID-19. The question always is this: Who is next? We must all stand up together against hatred and for justice and reconciliation, to dismantle systems of oppression that long remained unquestioned. Recent data from Statistics Canada shows that Canada is failing black youth, creating the conditions that push them into the justice system. To the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, my question is this: What is the government doing to address the unique challenges faced by black youth?", "speaker": "Mr. Shaun Chen (Scarborough North, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the member for Scarborough North is absolutely correct. We must all do what we can to stand up against hatred and injustice. We often say that today's youth are not only the leaders of tomorrow but the leaders of today, so we need to equip them for success by investing in youth. According to the 2016 census, black Canadians accounted for 1.2 million people, and more than a quarter of that population is under the age of 15. Socio-economic gaps, such as in employment and education, exist between black and non-black youth. We need to do better. Our government has brought forward youth so they can inform the decisions we make. We have Canada's first youth policy, and it was created by youth for youth to ensure that all young people are equipped to live healthy and fulfilling lives, and are empowered to create positive change for themselves and their communities. Our government launched the community support for black Canadian youth program, which supported 56 projects geared to address the unique challenges faced by black Canadian youth through the development of leadership skills and civic engagement, while empowering them through the promotion of black history, culture and identity. To address the challenges of the pandemic, our government has implemented a suite of measures designed to help youth and students, including with employment and service opportunities. My office is working with community organizations who serve black youth to make sure they too are both aware of and benefiting from these measures.", "speaker": "Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth)" }, { "content": "Ms. Mathyssen is next.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be splitting my time with the member for TimminsJames Bay. Schools in many provinces remain closed, and many child care providers want to reopen. They must reduce their capacity due to COVID-19. Now more than ever we need universal, publicly funded child care to restart the economy. Will the government bring in legislation that would enshrine into law access to, and federal funding for, quality affordable child care?", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (LondonFanshawe, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we are, of course, committed to investments in child care. We have constantly worked with provinces and territories to ensure that we provide the supports they need to provide quality, affordable and accessible child care. Since 2015, we have created over 40,000 child care spaces. We are committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)" }, { "content": "The government doesn't seem to understand that this is not universal child care. During COVID-19, women have lost the majority of jobs, and they have taken on the majority of additional child care responsibilities. Canadian women want and need to return to work, but this government doesn't understand that without affordable child care, they simply cannot re-enter the workforce. For 26 years, Liberal governments have been promising, but failing to deliver, a universal child care program. Parents are paying the price. How much longer do parents have to wait?", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for the important question. Since 2015, we have created 40,000 affordable, accessible, quality child care spaces across the country. We are on track to continue to invest $7.5 billion over 11 years to create additional child care spaces and support provinces and territories. We're constantly in touch with our counterparts to work to strengthen that sector. We are also keeping our promise and our commitment to create an additional 250,000 spaces. We will be there for parents as they get back to work, and we will continue to reinforce the early learning and child care sector.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen" }, { "content": "You have time for a very short question, Ms. Mathyssen.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Without universal child care, we are crippling our economy. We are not providing an affordable system, and this stops women from returning to work. Instead of helping parents return to work, the government is now bringing forward legislation that's penalizing them. Why is the government looking to sentence mothers and fathers to jail time and large fines when they cannot find the child care that", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen" }, { "content": "The honourable minister has time for a short answer.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We are committed to the early learning and child care sector. We will move forward with the creation of an early learning and child care secretariat. We will continue to invest in this sector. We recognize its importance.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen" }, { "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Angus.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an honour to be here, and I'm hoping that you and your family stay safe at this time. COVID has shaken up Canada's middle class, so my question is for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity. This morning I spoke with a businesswoman. She runs her own business, a travel agency, but because of COVID she has been wiped out. She's on CERB, and it's ticking down. There's no work to go back to, so in four weeks she hits the economic wall. Will the minister fight for an extension of CERB so this woman can stay in the middle class?", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we know how worried Canadians are as they see their final four-week period of the CERB approaching, and we're working very hard to ensure that the CERB continues to serve an important purpose as we move into economic recovery. I'll note that when we created the CERB, there was a different purpose in mind. We were asking people to stay home. Now we're asking people to go back to work if it's safe for them to do so. We're going to make sure that the wage subsidy and the CERB complement each other. In fact, the measures in today's legislation will help us to get the flexibility to be able to do just that.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We did give you a little more time. We will go to Mr. Angus.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. What I've seen with their legislation today is that they're talking about jailing people. We need a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity in a time of middle-class disparity, and she has talked about middle-class criminality. Let's talk about this again, about people going back to work. I spoke with a 51-year-old bartender. He's a professional; this is his job. There is no job to go back to. Will the minister assure us that this man will be able to stay in the middle class because the CERB will still be there in July, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus" }, { "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we've been helping Canadians by putting programs in place. We will continue to support families during the crisis, and afterwards as well.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier" }, { "content": "Mr. Angus, you have time for a very short comment or question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "The issue here is that when COVID hit, millions of Canadians were living in such precarious working conditions that they didn't even have enough money to pay their rent. That is a damning indictment. In four weeks, those Canadians are going to hit the economic wall again. What I need to know from the minister, and what Canadians need to know, is whether she will commit, yes or no, that the CERB will be there for those who have no work to go back to.", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have been helping families with a supplement to the Canada child benefit. We have put in place the Canada emergency response benefit. We will continue to find ways to support Canadian families during this crisis.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cooper.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It was all the way back on March 25 that the Minister of Finance stated that help for the energy sector was coming within hours, possibly days. Well, as it turns out, it hasn't been hours. It hasn't been days. It hasn't even been weeks. Indeed, months later, help has yet to arrive. Seventy-seven days after the minister made that statement, not a single energy company has received financing under EDC, the BDC, or the LEEFF program. As the energy sector faces an unprecedented liquidity crisis, how can this government possibly justify such a delay?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper (St. AlbertEdmonton, CPC)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, weeks ago we opened applications through the business credit availability program to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We've also opened applications for measures that will be available to our larger players through our LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry. We will continue to support workers, and we will continue to do so to get through this unprecedented challenge.", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, on June 2, the vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers said, The entire industry is frustrated with the delay that we are facing. The Saskatchewan Minister of Energy and Resources has spoken about a gaping hole that exists in terms of support for the energy sector. The gaping hole that I'm speaking of is the EDC and BDC programs that this government has failed to deliver upon. Indeed, it was on April 17 that those programs were announced, and 54 days later, not only has not a single energy company received financing, but guess what? They can't even apply, and the eligibility criteria have yet to be finalized after 54 days. If that is not failing to deliver for the energy sector, what is?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Business Council of Alberta has said that the LEEFF program is a positive development showing that the federal government recognizes the needs and value of Canada's large corporations. We agree. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through two crises: the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war initiated by Russia and Saudi Arabia. That's why, weeks ago, we opened applications for liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We also announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry to make sure these programs are effective.", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, contrary to the representations of the minister, neither the EDC program nor BDC programs are accepting applications. Just yesterday officials from both BDC and EDC were before the finance committee, where I posed precisely those questions to them. We know, Madam Chair, that the application process isn't up and running and that eligibility criteria remain to be determined, but I guess this government has some good news for the energy sector after 77 days. Now energy sector companies can go on the BDC website and apply for email updates. Is that the kind of help the Minister of Finance had in mind after 77 days: email updates instead of real relief for the energy sector?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Alberta finance minister, Travis Toews, said in a LEEFF announcement that in combination with earlier measures for small and medium-sized companies, it represented an expression of confidence in our industries. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through these two crisesas I said, the impact of COVID, and then on top of that, the effect of a global price war. We opened up applications for liquidity measures as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers asked. Their top five asks were all liquidity. We supported small and medium-sized players essential to the supply chain, who make up 85% of the jobs in that sector, and then we announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry and", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan" }, { "content": "I now have to interrupt for a few moments to allow our technicians to change places. With that done, Monsieur Martel, you may now go ahead..", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, there has recently been positive progress in AndrGauthier's case, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Prime Minister for their co-operation in this matter. However, Mr.Gauthier is currently on his own in the United Arab Emirates, without a passport, waiting to settle civil lawsuits. What services does the minister intend to provide to help him, and when does he plan to repatriate AndrGauthier to Canada?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, in all cases similar to Mr.Gauthier's, the Government of Canada, through its consular services, tries to do the best it can under the circumstances. This file is still active.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "The House recognized on February18, 2020, that the 15weeks of sickness benefits provided by employment insurance were insufficient. Citizens who became ill before March15 are now without help. They are being denied the CERB because they didn't lose their jobs because of COVID-19. They are being denied EI regular benefits because they are unable to work. In addition, some citizens are waiting for surgery, which is being delayed because of COVID-19. Is the government letting these people down?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "No, MadamChair, that's absolutely not the case. Of course, we understand that people who are no longer receiving EI benefits should have access to the CERB. We have committed to extending the emergency sickness benefit to 26weeks. We're working with everyone here to make that happen. We're taking into account the needs and circumstances of all citizens in our efforts to help Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "I've called on the Minister of Economic Development several times to be more flexible in establishing these programs, so that they are better adapted to the realities of the regions. Recently, it was the SMEs in Montreal that were monopolizing the funds earmarked for the regions. When will the Liberal government listen to the needs of regions like SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "I thank my colleague for the opportunity to announce the good news that was mentioned on Radio-Canada this morning, namely, $71million more for the regions of Quebec. Of course, we're here for the regions. I will be happy to work with my colleague to ensure that the CFDC in his region can support businesses. We have to support businesses in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean and across the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "I think that's a canned speech. According to a survey conducted by the Universit de Trois-Rivires in Quebec, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is apparently the most economically affected by COVID-19. We have many projects, but they depend on the government's leadership to be carried out. Our region has forestry, the aluminum sector, GNL Qubec, tourism, the Port of Saguenay, Davie Canada, a military base and a tax centre. It's all here. We know we'll have to get the economy moving again soon. When will the government act to help our region?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "Every day, we act to help my colleague's region. I've had good conversations with Promotion Saguenay. I've also spoken several times with various stakeholders in my colleague's beautiful region. We will always be there for them. I'd like to tell my colleague that there will be other announcements to support the economic development of the beautiful region of SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. I will be happy to work with him to achieve good results.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Sustainable forestry development is at the heart of the economic development of Canada and for SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. Canadians have reason to be proud of the use of the boreal forest in the fight against climate change. Currently, our innovative forest industry is experiencing many problems, and on top of that, there is the COVID-19 crisis. Who will defend our forestry workers?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "Of course, we believe in the importance of regional economic development. That's why we're always there to defend our forestry workers. I will also be pleased to work with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is very familiar with the matter and who knows the challenges faced by the various businesses in the forestry sector, as well as the employees. We will always be there to support employees and create more jobs across Quebec and the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota is next. Go ahead, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. We continue to see significant gaps in the Liberals' programs. There are still people who are falling through the cracks and being left behind. We are hearing from women who are pregnant or who have just given birth and are being left out or told to go back to work. When will this government stop letting Canadians down?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC)" }, { "content": "We know that there are many situations of Canadians who are about to or are just going on maternity or parental benefits who might not have access to their EI benefits due to not having accumulated enough time for COVID reasons. We're working very hard to make sure, as we did for fish harvesters, that we support all Canadians in these situations. I look forward to advising Canadians of our approach on this very soon.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, that simply isn't good enough. This is something that has been brought to the government's attention for months now, and still nothing has been done. These families deserve answers now. Had the government conducted a GBA+ analysis, they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women. Why wasn't a GBA+ conducted?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls. We are working hard to ensure that everyone has the supports they need. As we move forward, we are, as I said earlier, taking into consideration improvements to the EI system, the wage subsidy and the future of CERB. All these play together as we work to provide a comprehensive forward-looking support package for Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA+? Why was it not done?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB. I can tell you that women are benefiting significantly from this benefit.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, it is a simple question, and I will ask again. Why was GBA+ analysis not conducted for the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way, from the beginning, as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, if that's the case, then how did you miss these gaps?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we didn't miss gaps. We, from the beginning, looked to support as many people as possible. As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors, and today to supporting people with disabilities, we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures. As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery, of course we're going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the minister needs to take the responsibility here. These women and families deserve answers. This is a real problem happening right now. You said you would conduct GBA+ analysis on all policy measures moving forward. Where is the assistance for these expectant mothers?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I take responsibility. I'm very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures, how many women received the GST credit, how many women who lead families received the CCB one-time payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have all-party consent today.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota, may I remind you to please direct your questions through the chair?", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I will ask again, hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "My goodness, Madam Chair. I'll say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls, and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase, how completely we make women at the core of every decision.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota, you have 15 seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, my question is still not answered. She keeps repeating the same answer. I'll keep asking the same question, hoping for a straightforward answer. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Honourable minister, you have five seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we've taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning, and we'll continue to do so.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We go now to Mr. Carrie.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 I asked Minister Blair why Lisa Freeman, a constituent of mine, wasn't able to participate in the Parole Board hearing of her father's murderer. The minister acknowledged that this had been a mistake and that victims would now be able to attend by telephone and video conference. Can the minister tell this House how many parole hearings have been conducted under this digital format with victims since April 29?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank my honourable colleague for the question. I'm glad to hear that Minister Blair was able to provide information on the specific case he raises. With regard to his question, we're happy to provide it to him in due course.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship)" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 the minister said, and I quote, Steps have been taken to make it possible for victims to participate in those parole hearings virtually by phone or video conference. If the change has been made, can the minister please tell us how many hearings victims have been able to participate in by video conference?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, certainly we will confirm the number of hearings that may have occurred. With regard to the hearings under the Parole Board of Canada, we want to ensure that victims and others are able to participate in a fair and transparent manner.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, the website says, To protect the health and safety of the public, offenders, Parole Board...members and staff in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the PBC is currently conducting its hearings remotely via video conference or teleconference. However, when referring to victim participation, the PBC says it has Implemented technological and procedural enhancements in order to provide victims...the ability to participate...via telephone. If video conference is an option for staff and inmates, why is it not for victims?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, it is very important that all parties be able to participate before the Parole Board. The Parole Board has introduced technologies to allow victims to participate in a manner that is fair and that accords them the opportunity to express themselves.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the minister is missing the point. For victims, besides the criminal trial, the Parole Board hearings are the only chance to participate in the judicial process. Why are victims not permitted on the video conference, while staff, panels and inmates are?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said now on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in the hearings before the Parole Board. This is as a result of technology and innovations introduced by the Parole Board. Of course, those opportunities will continue to exist going forward.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Then, Madam Chair, why did the minister and this government tell Canadians and the House that victims of crime have the opportunity to participate in parole hearings by video conference, when in fact they do not?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said, of course we are going to confirm the status of that particular request. In the meantime, as I've said on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in these hearings. This is consistent with the fairness of those hearings and the due process we accord to them.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, it's been over a month. When will the minister finally give victims of crime the same right to parole hearings by video conference as he gives convicted inmates?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I reject that proposition. The Parole Board is a well-established tribunal that does allow for all parties, including victims, to participate in a manner that is fair, and that allows them to express themselves so those representations can be taken into account in the decisions of the Parole Board of Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "He can reject it as much as he wants, Madam Chair, but it seems he thinks it's fair that inmates have that right, but victims don't. We'll follow up with him on that. Brandon Hottot owns and operates a contracting business in my riding, and his company needs help. On May 19, the Prime Minister announced the government would allow sole proprietors and gig contractors to qualify for the Canada emergency business account; however, Brandon has still not been able to take advantage of this benefit. When can small business owners like Brandon expect this change to finally be made? It's been over three weeks, and the clock is ticking.", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, from the very beginning, we have been working hard to support our small businesses. Over 660,000 businesses today have received access to small business loans. I want to assure my colleague that additional support will be there within about a week.", "speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade)" }, { "content": "Mr. Carrie, you may have a very short question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Okay, Madam Chair. Shawn and Denise operate a gymnastics facility in Whitby and have been forced to close throughout COVID-19. As the economy begins to open, they are concerned about not having the money to pay their employees in the short term, especially at a reduced client capacity. Is the government extending the wage subsidy to small businesses that have been closed and are just beginning to open now?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "The wage subsidy has been extended until August 31. We hope businesses like that one will be able to take advantage of the wage subsidy to keep their employees on staff.", "speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng" }, { "content": "We will go now to Ms. May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to put it on the record, because we may or may not be debating it, the draft embargoed bill that we've seen is unacceptable to members of the Green Party caucus. My questions will relate largely to those sections that are troublesome. I'll start with a question to the honourable minister for disabilities. I certainly appreciate her work and I know her intentions are the best, but part 3 of this bill allows for the information to be shared so people can get a one-time payment of $600, which is not enough to really deal with the COVID crisis for people with disabilities. It's clearand I thank the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party for making this point clearly in question periodit will reach approximately 40% of people with disabilities because of the structure of going through the disability tax credit. To the honourable minister, are other measures under consideration to reach the rest of the people in Canada with disabilities who need help?", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the disability support payment we are proposing and that we hope to get through the House today complements a whole suite of measures our government has put in place that people with disabilities have access to. We know that people with disabilities who were precariously employed are now taking advantage of the CERB. Students with disabilities get the student benefit, including a $750-per-month top-up for four months. Families with children with disabilities are getting the CCB payment. Disproportionately, people with disabilities are benefiting from the GST payment. I should talk about the provincial letters that are being delivered to recipients of provincial disability supports. All around, Madam Chair, we're trying to get to every citizen with a disability, and this measure fills an important gap.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Much worse than part 3, from our point of view, is the treatment of people who are at this point potentially to be jailed for refusing to return to work when it's considered reasonable and they are recipients of CERB. I wonder about the reasonableness here. It's a subjective test. This is a wrong-headed approach to go after people and threaten them. The retroactive section has already made the Canadian Civil Liberties Association question its constitutionality. To the minister, what's reasonable, and in whose eyes is it reasonable? In today's news, Hamilton's chief medical officer says there is a spike in cases among young people, who likely were exposed while taking public transit to get to work. Their commute wasn't safe. Who determines reasonableness in deciding it's not safe to go back to work?", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as with the current CERB, moving forward it tries to encompass the situations of people who are unemployed, people who can't work because of child care responsibilities, people who are ill or sick. Moving to a broad term of reasonableness allows us to look at the individual circumstances of the person. If we stuck to language like suitable or appropriate, that would qualify the job. We're trying to look at the person and their particular circumstances as we work to ensure that if someone is immunocompromised and can't take transit to their job, then it's reasonable for them not to take that job. That's the exact example we're trying to encompass with broad reasonableness criteria.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "The approach is so very flawed, Madam Chair, in that it attempts to punish people as opposed to encouraging them. I think the Liberals have been overly influenced by the Conservative Party's cries that there's vast fraud, that Canadians are cheating. The reality is that if you want to create an incentive to go back to work, you don't threaten people. What you do is create a sliding scale. You let people continue to receive CERB, but maybe less as they begin to earn more, so that you have a transition on a sliding scale to go into the wage subsidy or into CERB. I ask the honourable minister this: How can it be considered fair to say that someone isn't eligible, even though they believed they were? The language in this bill, particularly at proposed paragraph 12.1 in the penalties section, is an unreasonable determination that someone has violated the act and is subject to jail time and heavy fines.", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, because of parliamentary privilege, I can't and won't speak to specific acts of a piece of law that hasn't actually been introduced in the House, but I'll tell you that what we're trying to do is enhance our integrity measures. We're working with those people who made an honest mistake, those who took advantage of returning to work when they were still receiving the CERB. We're working with those people. We're absolutely confident that those people will find a path forward. We want to deal with intentional fraudsters, people who are criminally taking advantage of seniors. Members of this House have brought fact patterns to my attention and have said, Please deal with these. This is exactly what we're trying to deal with, Madam Chair.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from EsquimaltSaanichSooke. Tourism is a critical part of the economy throughout my riding, and after struggling with years of forest fires and floods, tourism was set to have a record-breaking year in 2020, but the COVID epidemic has burned tourism to the ground, in the words of a local leader. Thousands of jobs have evaporated. Over half of the tourism businesses in the region are facing imminent insolvency. Many of them are small seasonal operations that don't qualify for any of the government's COVID support programs. While funding for ad campaigns is appreciated, these businesses need direct support and they need certainty about that support. Can the finance minister pledge now to provide direct and timely support to tourism businesses in my riding?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings" }, { "content": "Thank you to my colleague for his important question. I agree with him. The tourism sector has been deeply impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis. Yes, we were looking forward to another record-breaking year in 2020, but unfortunately the pandemic happened, and therefore many businesses were impacted. That's why, as a government, we're there to help with the wage subsidy, which has been extended until the end of August, as the tourism sector has been asking us to do; with the CEBA loans, the $40,000 loans, which also include a subsidy; and with the commercial rent relief. That said, we know the tourism sector also sometimes falls through the cracks. That's why we wanted to have a backstop. We came up with funding through the regional development agencies. In my colleague's riding, it's Western Economic Diversification. Some businesses have applied and have received funding. If there are more that need help, please come and see me. I would love to be there to help your community, help tourism", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "A big part of tourism in my riding is the wine sector. One thing that has allowed the wine industry to grow so dramatically in the past few decades is the excise tax exemption. That exemption could likely end very soon if it is found to be non-compliant with our trade agreements. The industry has proposed a trade-legal replacement, the wine growers' value-added program. The finance minister has known about this situation for months. Can he assure this House and the industry that the government will act immediately to implement this program?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We continue to work on this issue. We recognize how important the wine industry is in B.C., and I assure the honourable member that I will come back to him and give him an update.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Garrison.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, this is National Blood Donor Week in Canada. While blood and plasma donations are always important, during this pandemic they're critical. There's a simple and effective way to increase the blood supply: End the gay blood ban. More than 17 other countries have no deferral because they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than identity-based exclusions. The Liberals must agree, because they promised this in two election campaigns. Will the Minister of Health do more than repeat those same promises today and instead take action to get this unscientific and discriminatory gay blood ban lifted?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison (EsquimaltSaanichSooke, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I'm glad to be able to answer this very important question. We indeed want to fight against discrimination. We feel this particularly strongly in the context of the last few days and the last few weeks. We are also mindful of the important contribution of scientists and other experts in this area. We look forward to working with all members in this House in making progress on that issue.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board)" }, { "content": "The government knows I've been calling on friends, family and allies of the gay community to donate blood this week in the place of those of us who cannot. Not only do we need routine blood donations, but to do the research we need on possible prevention and treatment of COVID-19, we urgently need plasma donations from those who have recovered. This ban means that plasma donations are being rejected for no good scientific reason. Again, when will the Minister of Health act to get this ban lifted?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I think the member used the right key words in referring to science and more prevention work to make sure that everyone lives in dignity and safety. Although there has been progress in the last few months and years on this important issue, there is more work to be done.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos" }, { "content": "Six years ago this week, I tabled a motion in the House that called for an end to this homophobic and transphobic ban on blood donations from gay men, men who have sex with men and trans women. That was five ministers of health ago. At the time, I was told certain things had to happen before the ban could be lifted. These were all due to be completed earlier this year, before the COVID crisis. Since we appear to have cross-party support for my new motion, M-41, that I put on the notice paper this week, would the minister and the government agree to support a unanimous consent motion to proceed with M-41 immediately?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a short answer, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Homophobia and transphobia are examples of discrimination and absolutely important things not only to recognize but to fight against. That's why we are pleased to have voices such as the member of Parliament's voice to make sure that we make progress in making sure that everyone in Canada lives in safety and in dignity.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchette-Joncas.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I will share my time with the honourable member for LongueuilSaint-Hubert. As Quebec starts to gradually emerge from the general lockdown, the outlook for the recovery of the tourism industry remains bleak. The economy of several regions of Quebec depends on tourism to ensure stability and balance, which will be beneficial in the coming months. Is the Minister of Finance prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit beyond 16weeks to ensure a living wage for tourism workers?", "speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, as I said in English, we're working very hard to continue to be there for all Canadians, whether it's through the CERB or the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Please excuse me, I'm very tired. I'll continue in English. We're going to have news on this very soon, Madam Chair, but the point is that we want to make sure that all of these programs work well together, whether it's the wage subsidy or the CERB. We want to make sure that we incentivize work, but we still continue to be there for Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We read that the government wants to gradually replace the Canada emergency response benefit by using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. That's all well and good, but seasonal industries aren't entitled to it under the current criteria. If the minister is aware of the importance of the tourism industry in the economic cycle of our regions, he must commit to helping workers. If the clientele isn't there, the industry will simply no longer exist. We still need the Canada emergency response benefit. We simply need to make it an employment incentive so as not to hurt people who are lucky enough to be able to go back to work. The question is simple: will the government commit to renewing it?", "speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we are working hard to make sure we continue to support Canadians as we transition through economic recovery. We want to make sure that we support Canadians, but of course we don't want to disincentivize work. The CERB was created for a different purpose. We asked people to stay home to be safe and to self-isolate if they had symptoms. We want to make sure that as we ask people to go back to work, we don't disincentivize work, but the reality is that there won't be jobs there for everyone, and we need to continue to support everyone.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Mr.Trudel, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I join my colleague in extending my good wishes to you on Portugal's national day. Apart from the fact that it is probably the most beautiful riding in Quebec, the riding of LongueuilSaint-Hubert has surely been one of the hardest hit by the pandemic, both in terms of health and the economy. There are industries here, but also many service businesses, including bars, restaurants and theatres. But we aren't close to being able to go back and see a show by WajdiMouawad or FredPellerin, and that's a shame. We must work to calm the anxiety of these people. The arts sector was the first to stop its activities and will be the last to resume them. There is a lot of anxiety. The CERB ends on July4. Will the government extend the CERB, with an employment incentive?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I thank my colleague for his question and all the work he's doing in arts and culture. From the outset, we've been there to support our artists and arts organizations. We introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, for example, but also the emergency wage subsidy, which we made available to non-governmental organizations. To ensure that people who receive royalties aren't penalized under the Canada emergency response benefit, we have adapted it. We announced a $500million fund to specifically help the arts and culture sector. In fact, we understand very well that this sector has been severely affected by the current crisis. We've been there for our artists and artisans, and we will continue to be.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Perfect. Instead of giving a long preamble, I'll ask a very simple question: will the CERB be extended on July5?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel" }, { "content": "The hon. minister has the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member opposite that in July we will be there for Canadian workers.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "In my riding, a nice little restaurant called Crpe Caf on St-Charles Street in Longueuil has just closed its doors. It's final; it won't reopen. Another restaurant owner told me that he was going to reopen his restaurant, but he didn't know at what capacity. Would it be at 15%, 30%, 40%? No one knows. The speed at which the economy will recover is the big unknown. How many hours a week will it be able to offer its employees? Will it be 12hours, 15hours, 22hours? Will employees even want to return to work to put in 12hours a week? If the CERB isn't adjusted, nothing will happen. Will the government commit to extending the CERB and providing an employment incentive to get the economy moving again at full speed?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I know, of course, that the restaurant sector has been much affected. I have a great deal of empathy for what entrepreneurs and my colleague are going through in his riding. That's why we are currently helping our SMEs. We have money for economic development. The money is available through Canada Economic Development, or CED. If my colleague wants to work with me to provide support to restaurant owners and other restaurants in Longueuil, I'd be very happy to do so.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Bragdon.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, last month, on May 5, I asked the government how it plans to support the agriculture sector. The Liberals announced a $50-million food surplus purchase program as part of the agricultural aid package. Now, one month later, our farmers, who provide the food we need, are still waiting on funds to be delivered. The New Brunswick potato industry is sitting on a massive amount of last year's crop that, because of the pandemic, has no buyers. When will the Prime Minister and the government step up and deliver the support our farmers so desperately need?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, without question we want to continue to support farmers. My colleague Minister Bibeau has introduced hundreds of millions of dollars for farmers. In addition to that, we have provided relief and support for migrant workers, who are ensuring that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, when support for the agriculture sector was announced on May 4, our agriculture sector had been sounding the alarm for weeks that they needed help to continue to meet Canadians' food needs. It has been over a month since that announcement, and our farmers are still waiting for help. It is worth noting, Madam Chair, that vegetables like the potatoes in New Brunswick that I previously mentioned are perishable products. Our farmers do not have the luxury of time. Again, will the Prime Minister and this government make agriculture a priority and provide them with the support they desperately need right now?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, obviously we believe in the importance of our regions and our rural communities, and that's why we've always made sure that agriculture was at the core of many of the decisions throughout this pandemic. That's why our colleague Minister Bibeau, who is the Minister of Agriculture, has been there providing the right liquidity and the right support through this pandemic. Of course we want to make sure that we continue to partner with provinces and territories, because we need their help in this context to make sure that all together we show strong economic support for our farmers, who are going through tough times.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "On May 1 the Liberals introduced a sweeping firearms ban through an order in council that outlawed 1,500 firearms. Recent reports show that since then, more and more firearms are quietly being added to the list of banned firearms, including many common hunting rifles and shotguns. Madam Chair, our hunters, outfitters, dealers and sport shooters are some of the most vetted members of our society. Why does the Prime Minister insist on making criminals out of law-abiding firearms owners instead of dealing with the criminals we already have?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I am very proud of this government's record when it comes to ensuring that we take out of our communities those guns that have one objective only, and that is to kill other people. We will always stand by that record, and we will continue to take the necessary steps to keep our communities safe.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Liberals have said that to compensate firearms owners, they will implement a national buyback program. Instead of targeting law-abiding firearms owners and their legally purchased private property, wouldn't the estimated quarter of a billion dollars needed to buy back these firearms be better utilized right now in supporting our agricultural sector, the very people who grow our food and literally keep our land?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, of course we look forward to saying more about that, but of course we remain committed to taking those guns that have only one objective, and that is to kill people. The legislation we have introduced and the measures we have taken are designed to keep our communities safe, and of course we will do that. We will also continue to support farmers, introducing hundreds of millions of dollars in support because we know they are providing Canadians with affordable food.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Mr. Bragdon, you have time for a short question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, many sole proprietors have been hit extremely hard by this pandemic. My office has heard from many who have been in business for nearly 30 years and have submitted hundreds of HST returns, yet still cannot access the CEBA funding because they do not have a business chequing account, as a lot of small business owners use their personal chequing accounts to do their business. The Liberals offered aid to sole proprietors but attached unnecessary hurdles that prevent many of them from accessing the funds they desperately need to keep their businesses afloat. When will these unnecessary hurdles be removed so businesses can start to receive the relief they so desperately need?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "We will have a very short answer from the honourable minister.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We believe in the importance of making sure we're supporting our businesses, including sole proprietors. That is why our colleague, Minister Ng, the minister for small business, has been working on this and will continue to make sure we take the appropriate steps to recognize that. Meanwhile, people can definitely come to the regional development agencies if they don't have access to funding through banks, and that's a good way to make sure there is a backstop.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Please note that, pursuant to the Standing Order made on April20 and May26, the House has been recalled. Therefore, the committee will adjourn, and the House will begin sitting at 2:30p.m. The bells will be rung to call members, and a parade will begin the sitting. The meeting is adjourned.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" } ]

[ { "content": "I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 20thmeeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. As a reminder to all members, in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not be connected to the video conference. I want to remind those who are participating by video conference that, when they talk, they must use the channel that corresponds to the language they are speaking in. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. We are moving on to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on. We will now move on to document submissions. The honourable minister, Mr. Blair.", "speaker": "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.))" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2019 annual report on the RCMPs use of the law enforcement justification provisions. This report addresses the RCMP's use of specified provisions within the law enforcement justification regime, which is set out in subsections 25 to 25 of the Criminal Code. This report also documents the nature of the investigations in which these provisions were used.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)" }, { "content": "On tabling of documents, we have Minister Sajjan.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 32, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the 2018-19 progress report on Canada's national action plan for the implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on women, peace and security.", "speaker": "Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence)" }, { "content": "Now we'll go to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during the meeting of a special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Members who are participating in the meeting in person are kindly asked to bring the signed certificate to the office once the petition has been presented. Presenting petitions, Ms. May.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to present two petitions. They both pertain to the protection of our natural world. One is an e-petition, and it relates to the threat to pollinators globally. We know that honey bees and other pollinators are essential to food production. The petitioners note that research from around the world points to a threat to pollinators, particularly from a class of pesticides known as neonicotinoids. The European Union has taken action on this. The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to practise a precautionary principle and remove from use neonicotinoids in Canada to protect our pollinators. The second petition relates to the ongoing threat to the southern resident killer whales. These iconic whales are much beloved in SaanichGulf Islands, throughout coastal British Columbia and indeed across Canada. The petitioners are calling for more action to be taken as the population of southern resident killer whales continues to decline, more action for boat-free safety zones, more prohibitions around whale tourism to make sure that the whales are safe from those who are keen to watch them from too close a distance, and more of a credible enforcement regime to support these measures to keep the southern resident killer whale population in our waters and not on the list of species that have become extinct.", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Genuis.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, for over 10 years, members of Parliament from various parties have been trying to pass legislation to deal with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. Irwin Cotler, Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Senator Salma Ataullahjan and I have all proposed bills on this. The petitioners want the House to support Bill S-204. This is another bill that would make it a criminal offence for someone to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent. I'm sure petitioners would want me to add that, given the urgency of this issue, perhaps the government could consider bringing forward a government bill on this issue, which would allow the process to move much faster.", "speaker": "Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise here today to present a petition from Canadian citizens in support of motion M-1, which was placed in this House by my colleague the member for New WestminsterBurnaby on the green new deal. These citizens point out that climate change has escalated into a global climate emergency and that Canada must act with ambition and urgency. They call on the government to support M-1, a made in Canada green new deal, to take bold and rapid action to adopt socially equitable climate action to tackle the climate emergency and address worsening socio-economic and racial inequalities at the same time while ending fossil fuel subsidies, closing offshore tax havens, and supporting workers impacted by the transition by creating well-paying, unionized jobs in the shift to a clean and renewable energy economy.", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Johns.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and privilege to table e-petition 2577, which was sponsored by Chris Alemany from Port Alberni and is supported by 5,183 petitioners. They're calling on the Government of Canada to work urgently across party lines and in partnership with provincial and territorial governments to implement a guaranteed, consistent, national and livable universal basic income system for all Canadians. The petition is very timely, coming almost one year to the day since the completion of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which also called on the government to establish a guaranteed annual livable income for all Canadians. Whether it's about providing a safety net to get through a global pandemic, the means to keep your children out of poverty at any time, or simply being able to afford safe housing or transportation, it's time for Canada to have this conversation.", "speaker": "Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Manly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's an honour and a privilege to present a petition on behalf of the constituents of NanaimoLadysmith. People are concerned about gas fracking and the use of methane and the destruction that methane causes to our atmosphere and with climate change. They're calling on the government to commit to upholding the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action by immediately halting all existing and planned construction of the Coastal GasLink project on the Wet'suwet'en territory, and by ordering the RCMP to dismantle their exclusion zone and to stand down. They also call on the government to schedule nation-to-nation talks between the Wet'suwet'en nation and the federal and provincial governmentswhich is something that we're happy to see has been happening and I commend the government for that effortand to prioritize the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.", "speaker": "Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP)" }, { "content": "Next is Mr. Lamoureux.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, like Canada, Guyana is part of the Commonwealth, and many constituents of Winnipeg North have raised the issue with regard to the presidential election back in March, when it was being called into question. There have been some very positive indications in recent days, but the petitioners are asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to be aware of what's taking place in Guyana, and as much as possible, to be advocates for democracy and make sure that we're being diligent in supporting what the people of Guyana want to see.", "speaker": "Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.)" }, { "content": "I just want to remind the honourable members, when presenting petitions, to be as concise as possible. I notice they're starting to stretch a bit and it's something we all tend to do. Now we'll go to Statements by Members. The first statement will be from Mr. Lefebvre.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID-19. I am proud of all my constituents, and all Canadians, including first responders, volunteers, health care and essential workers, local miners, the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families, and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff. I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks; Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer; Nobel Prize winner SNOLAB's work on ventilators, which earned a federal contract; Vale Canada's $1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID-19 health solutions; and many more. We are all in the same boat, but we will get out of it together.", "speaker": "Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Sudbury, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Dalton.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Pitt Meadows is one of Canada's most beautiful communities. It's tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain. Most of the area consists of farmland, golf courses, parks and conservation areas. It also has Pitt Lake, which is among the largest freshwater tidal lakes in the world. Pitt Meadows' history dates back thousands of years with Katzie First Nation. In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for today's bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries. It's hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nation's busiest general aviation airports. Last weekend the community came together to celebrate Pitt Meadows Day a little differently because of COVID. In a great show of community spirit, from their front yards and balconies, thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city. I am thankful to have raised my family here, taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community.", "speaker": "Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Kelloway.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times. Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been, it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through. Whether it is someone like Glen Muise, who delivers iPads to seniors' homes so they can connect with loved ones, teachers who deliver meals to students in need, Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas, two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast, or Rose Fitzgerald, who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county, constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need. Mr. Chair, as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso. The people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia care deeply about one another. They know that as a community, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable people, and I cannot help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding. Thanks so much.", "speaker": "Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape BretonCanso, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Ms. Brub, go ahead.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash, whose commitment I commend, to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec. The Bloc is open to the idea, but we shouldn't wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action. There are already potential solutions for taking action. Commissions have been issuing reports for decades, and Ottawa has been tabling them. Last year alone, the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations. The federal government must work with indigenous peoples, Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces. Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP. Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures. Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the long-overdue reconciliation. Let's take action.", "speaker": "Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ)" }, { "content": "I give the floor to Mr.MacKinnon.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues, I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020. We know that, owing to the pandemic, graduation celebrations will be different this year, as students will be deprived of their prom, their graduation ceremony and, in some cases, their goodbyes to friends and teachers. I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant, LeCarrefour, Nicolas-Gatineau, de l'rablire, Collge Saint-Alexandre, Collge Nouvelles Frontires, Collge Saint-Joseph, Philemon-Wright and other regional schools, are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis. However, that takes nothing away from their accomplishment. So when they receive their diploma, here is what I will say to them: Surge ahead! The future belongs to you. Be ambitious, follow your dreams and, most importantly, continue to change the Outaouais and the world! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time.", "speaker": "Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Morantz.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre, which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg. This state-of-the-art addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott, Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce, who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011. The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community. I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council. The addictions crisis in Canada needs action. With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions, we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction. I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality. Addictions affect us all, and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution.", "speaker": "Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Jowhari.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill. Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty. I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services. I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which, upon receiving these donations, redoubled their efforts to serve their communities. Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation Long-Term Care Centre, Divine Favour Senior Homecare, the Community & Home Assistance to Seniors, the True Compassion Home Health centre, Blue Door, the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program, Yellow Brick House, Hill House Hospice, Community Living York South, and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill. The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament.", "speaker": "Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Madam Lalonde.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Usually, at this time of the year, I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans. However, we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year. I cannot express enough how, in these exceptional times, I have witnessed the strength, resilience and community spirit of our graduates. I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class. Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school, the cole secondaire catholique Batrice-Desloges, had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success. As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future. We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them. We will not fail. I thank the teachers, the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work. Congratulations to all graduates of 2020.", "speaker": "Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. Vis.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives. For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely. The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit, most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection, even though Internet is an essential service. Those in underserved areas, including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, cannot work from home and their children cannot keep up with their classmates. For many of my indigenous constituents, Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies don't want to serve them. I, along with my colleagues, launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions. We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada. This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved.", "speaker": "Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Mr. McLeod.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada has been awarded its first-ever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme. Congratulations go to Lutsl K' Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation, with support from Deninu K'ue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation, for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area. It's 14,000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you'll find anywhere on earth. I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canada's $7.9-million commitment, along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year. The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large. Congratulations to Lutsl K'.", "speaker": "Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Falk.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Liberal government has tabled $87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study, debate and pass it. The allocated time is wholly inadequate. Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent. They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament. It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this government's spending. It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy. It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal government's programs fail to meet their intended goals. A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy. Canadians are owed better. Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting, parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do.", "speaker": "Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC)" }, { "content": "We now go to Mr. Godin.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. Our planet is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. Our daily lives have been turned upside down. I am thinking of you, our seniors, valuable individuals who built our country. You have gone through a very restrictive confinement. You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families. Our students also had to adapt. Their school year was turned on its head. Our graduating class, especially, saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish. The future belongs to them. They must follow their dreams. I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things. We have all taken on our important responsibility, that of following the guidelines. The results have been most compelling in my riding. I want to say how proud I am to represent you here, in the Canadian Parliament. I thank each and everyone of you. You are helping PortneufJacques-Cartier flourish. You have shown resilience, creativity, innovation and solidarity. That is commendable. Together, we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger.", "speaker": "Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now go to Ms. Gazan.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg, led by women and non-binary individuals, who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality. We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism. We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power. We will speak out against police violence. We will speak out against systemic racism. We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us, not abuse us. We will call out those who abuse their power. We will rise. We will rise. We will rise. To all the women and non-binary folks who are standing, I say, let's continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected. Our liberation is intertwined. Solidarity.", "speaker": "Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)" }, { "content": "Mrs.DeBellefeuille, go ahead.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID-19. However, the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister. First, he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition, while the economic recovery must be prepared. He is refusing to provide an economic update, even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic. He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers. The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave, and not after it. Finally, today, he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed. He is behaving as if he had a majority government. This is not a time for recklessness. Governing means anticipating. I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together.", "speaker": "Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ)" }, { "content": "We will now go to Mr. Uppal.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic. I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods' Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors. Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and Dil-E-Punjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals. Sikh Youth Edmonton delivered free groceries to families, seniors and students. Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton. The Bhartiya Cultural Society Hindu temple provided free meals to anyone who needed them. Punjab Insurance and The Punjab chain of restaurants provided free meals in downtown Edmonton. The staff, nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy. I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength, resilience and compassion as we move forward together.", "speaker": "Hon. Tim Uppal (Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC)" }, { "content": "We'll now proceed to Mr. Fonseca.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, today is Portugal Day, celebrated both in Portugal and around the world by Portuguese. In Canada, June has been recognized as Portuguese Heritage Month. We're truly happy to recognize the great contributions made by Canadians of Portuguese descent. This year is a difficult one, though, for all of us, including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation. Our prayers and well wishes are with everyone. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times. Your warmth, hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally. As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family, I know this year will be a lot different from previous years. I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal, and please continue to support our local businesses. ", "speaker": "Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.)" }, { "content": "We now begin the period of questions for ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice in order to allow employees who provide support for sitting to substitute each other very safely. The first question goes to the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Scheer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister is doing everything to avoid being accountable to Canadians. He is refusing to table a budget, refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work. Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities, but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that. I hope the opposition parties will allow a vote and a debate in the House on this important bill.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister wants parliamentarians to vote on aspects of the government's spending. We want the Auditor General to be able to examine that government spending. Under the government, the Auditor General has had to do more with less, and her ability to conduct audits is being affected. The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits, despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending. I have a simple question. Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job, yes or no?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor General's office in 2018-19, and the equivalent of 38 full-time staff were added. We support the Auditor General, unlike the Conservative government, which fired 60 people from the Auditor General's office. We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon, and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "The Prime Minister is again engaged in revisionist history. He well knows that it was the Auditor General's office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies, which did not affect its ability to do the job. In fact, as the interim auditor general, John Wiersema, said, We would not have proposed if we didnt think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament. Only the government's refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor General's ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve, and we wonder why. This is the government that cannot explain where 20,000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars' worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone. They can't identify that. Then there is, of course, the $35-billion Infrastructure Bank, which has completed precisely zero projects. Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, talking of revisionist history, Stephen Harper's Conservatives cut $6.5 million from the Auditor General's budget and fired 60 staff. On the contrary, we worked with the Auditor General's office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new full-time staff. We will continue to demonstrate openness and transparency. We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament, whom the Conservatives, in their time in office, showed no respect for. We will continue to move forward in a way that has led, for example, to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians. The Conservatives don't seem to want that debate or vote.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, it's no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position. The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did, so I understand why he likes to live in the past. In May, the interim auditor general said, Ten years ago, we were completing about 27 performance audits every year. With our current resources, we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year. That's half the number of audits, despite a massive explosion in government spending. The Auditor General's office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done. Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor General's office, yes or no?", "speaker": "Hon. Andrew Scheer" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we very much look forward to working with the new Auditor General to ensure that her office has the ability to continue the important audits and transparency measures that are foundational to our institutions. Speaking of what is foundational to our institutions, this afternoon we're putting forward a bill that would help Canadians across the country, and we've proposed to debate and vote on that bill. It actually looks like the Conservatives and other opposition parties might not want this. They have been complaining about not having debates and votes in Parliament, and now they're proposing not to have them. That's a little head-scratching. We hope they're going to help Canadians.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "We will continue with Mr.Blanchet.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr.Chair. We may have a chance here to replace a problem with a good opportunity. This morning, we heard many groups and organizations that represent people with a disability express their concerns over the bill introduced by the government, which I feel is chocolate pudding containing cod liver oil. We agree with the chocolate pudding. We are favourable to helping people with a disability. People don't know the rules. They don't knowI am telling them nowthat a bill can be divided. It can be cut into parts and voted on in parts. The rest of the bill can be enhanced. I am saying to the Prime Minister that, if he presents the part on disabled individuals, it will be passed at the speed of light. He won't even see it happen. Is he prepared to divide the bill, so that we can work together to help people with a disability?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ)" }, { "content": "The bill that we are proposing this afternoon will certainly help people living with disabilities. We can always recognize that this is important, and every party should be open to it. We will also increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit from four-week intervals to two weeks. We will also expand the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses will have access to it. I am always willing to work with members of the opposition to ensure that we adopt these measures, all or some of the measures. We want to help Canadians. We look forward to debating and voting on this later today.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "It is a glorious day. I heard all or some of the measures. That means that we are not adopting them all at the same time and that the bill is being split. Can the Prime Minister confirm that he is in fact going to split his bill so that we can address the various components separately, since they have nothing to do with each other, and improve them, in keeping with our mandate as elected officials?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "Our goal on this side of the House, and it is shared by all members of the House, is to help Canadians during the pandemic. We have put forward a number of measures that will help Canadians in a tangible way. Yes, that includes Canadians living with disabilities, but it also includes businesses that cannot, but should be able to, access the wage subsidy. In addition, we are going to make the Canada emergency response benefit more flexible. I look forward to continuing the discussions", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchet has the floor.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "We almost had some clarity, but one swallow does not make a summer. Yes, there is a need for discussions on the Canada emergency response benefit. The government says that it wants to transform the program into something very coercive, without admitting that the lack of an employment incentive has essentially sabotaged another program, the wage subsidy. That deserves some thought. That is what we are elected to do. We do not need to spend eight months on this, we can fix it in a few hours. When the government says that we are going to have to vote on this, it means rubber stamping its bill. We have the right to debate it, to have discussions and to improve it. I watched the election on the night of October21. It was a beautiful night. It was more fun than a hockey game. People elected a minority government. Can the government admit that?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "We are not proposing only to vote on this bill this afternoon, we are proposing to debate it. It is the role and responsibility of all of us in the House to exchange ideas and to work together to help Canadians. That is exactly what we are proposing this afternoon. It is about helping people with disabilities, increasing the flexibility of the CERB, and expanding the scope of the wage subsidy so that more businesses have access to it. I look forward to debating this with my colleagues opposite.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchet, you have 43seconds left.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "That will be enough. I would be remiss if I allowed the Prime Minister to mislead people quite unintentionallyI say this in accordance with the Standing Orders. When we introduce a bill, we discuss it at second reading, we vote, we continue to discuss it and we send it to committee. All that can be done very quickly. However, we must be able to amend and improve this bill. That is how the normal Parliament works. The government doesn't like being in a minority situation. It behaves as if it were a majority government, but it is not. Can we follow the real procedures of Parliament, do a proper job, and then have a vote that is likely to suit the majority of members, not just the Prime Minister?", "speaker": "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, my hon. colleague seems to completely forget that we are going through a pandemic. The COVID-19 crisis requires different actions on our part. That is why we provided the text of the bill to the opposition parties four days ago. We have been working with them for hours over the past three or four days to amend the bill, if they had amendments to propose. That is how we are taking action to help Canadians quickly during this crisis, and that is what we will continue to do.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr.Singh, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities, will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit. We hope to be able to debate it.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "As I said, Mr. Chair, discussions are ongoing on that, but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them, as we have been.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, a family that needs to buy groceries can't take those pretty words and buy groceries with them. We're asking the Prime Minister to extend the CERB for families in need. Will the Prime Minister do that, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to be there for Canadians in the right way. We are engaged with stakeholders, with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I can tell you what the right way is. Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he's an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened. He is now dependent on the CERB. He wants to go back to work, but there's no work. He sent an email saying he's faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he's frightened that if the CERB runs out, and it is planned to run out at the end of this month, then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet. Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I said, and as we have been saying from the beginning, we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it. The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon. We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities, to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB. He doesn't even want to debate those things. He doesn't even want to be voting on them. Will the NDP allow us to move forward on these important measures for Canadians?", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, let's talk about those measures. One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities. Now the government's plan is only going to help 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40%, or a significant portion, of people with disabilities, he wants to help none of them, because he's not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill. That's unfortunate. We're always happy to look at how we can do more. We have demonstrated from the beginning that we want to do more for Canadians. I look forward to working with the NDP. I am hoping those members change their minds and allow us to have an important debate this afternoon.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40% of Canadians living with disabilities. Let's talk about the 60% who aren't being helped. They are veterans living with disabilities, those who receive CPP and those who receive disability payments. Often it's the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who won't be helped with the plan the government is proposing. Will the government help all Canadians living with disabilities?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our proposal will help 100% of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit, including many veterans. The fact is that we are there to support the disability community. We are there to support Canadians with disabilities. Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation?", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "Mr. Singh, we have 43 seconds for a question and an answer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, that's the exact problem with the Liberal proposal. It's a tax credit approach, which excludes the vast majority of Canadians living with disabilities. That is the wrong approach. We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB, if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities, we will move forward. Will the government do that?", "speaker": "Mr. Jagmeet Singh" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as I have said from the beginning, we look forward to continuing to work with the members opposite to keep moving forward to help Canadians. However, we need the opposition parties to actually choose to help Canadians and not to play political games. I hope we're going to be able to actually have a debate and a vote on this important legislation this afternoon.", "speaker": "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau" }, { "content": "We're now going to take a short pause to allow staff to change up in a safe way respecting COVID-19 procedure. The floor now goes to Mr. Rayes.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, can the Prime Minister tell us whether we will have an economic update by the end of June?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member for his question. It is of course very important to be transparent. When the situation is stable, we will have", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance)" }, { "content": "Once again, the floor goes to Mr.Rayes.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, most of the provinces in Canada are working on tabling economic updates by the end of June. Why is the Liberal government unable to do so as well?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "I understand the importance of transparency and that is why we are trying every day to explain our investments to Canadians and to continue to be transparent with them.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "The Liberal government announced hundreds of billions of dollars in new spending during the pandemic, but it still refuses to provide an economic update in order to be transparent with Canadians. In times of crisis, monitoring the situation is more important than ever. I repeat my question: why does this government not want to table an economic update by the end of June, when the provinces are doing so?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "Every day, we explain the economic situation, our investments, the changes we are making, and our programs to improve the situation of Canadians during the pandemic. We will continue our approach to being transparent.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "The Parliamentary Budget Officer himself does not understand why the federal government cannot deliver an economic update when the provinces can. Why are the government and the minister defying the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is an independent officer and is requesting an economic update?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "We will continue with our approach, which is one of transparency. We know that it's very difficult to make projections given the very dynamic nature of the situation. We think our approach of providing information daily is appropriate and we will continue to be transparent about our investments.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "That is incredible. When we listen to the minister and the Prime Minister talk, you would think we were in the pesky terrible twos phase that children go through, when they keep saying no, no, no. I find it funny that the provinces are able to table an economic update in a crisis situation. The opposition parties are asking for it, as are experts and officials. When the time comes for the government to listen to the scientists, it has no problem doing so. However, if people do not think like the government, it ignores them. The provinces are doing it, the opposition parties are calling for it and the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it. Why will the Minister of Finance not table an economic update so that all members of Parliament can do their verification work?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "I will continue to provide daily information on our measures and investments. Projections are clearly very difficult to make. However, when the situation is more stable, we will be able to provide more information to Canadians. In the meantime, we will be adapting to the situation on a daily basis and making sure that we have the information we need to make our decisions and to make sure that Canadians understand our situation.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "Mr.Rayes, you have 45seconds left.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr.Chair, one month ago, the Prime Minister announced with great fanfare that the eligibility criteria for the $40,000emergency loans for businesses would be more flexible to help self-employed entrepreneurs and businesses that pay themselves dividends to have access to them. However, as of todayit has been four weeks since that announcementbusinesses are still banging their heads on the doors of their financial institutions. They do not have access to the information because it is not available on official websites. In addition, even senior officials confirmed to me during a technical call on June2, last Tuesday, that this information would not be available for several weeks. Can the Minister of Finance, who says he wants to act quickly to help our businesses, explain why, after four weeks, it is still not possible to get the information the Prime Minister promised us from his doorstep?", "speaker": "Mr. Alain Rayes" }, { "content": "Since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, we have been listening and responding to small businesses and entrepreneurs across the country. In fact, we have even announced the expansion of the program's eligibility criteria to include many owner-managed small businesses with payrolls of less than$20,000. The new criteria have forced financial institutions to adapt to be able to provide this program to new applicants. We are working around the clock to ensure that we are able to promptly provide small businesses across the country with the assistance they need.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance)" }, { "content": "We will now proceed to Mr. Allison.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, Canada's unemployment rate stands at 13.7%. That's the highest it's been in almost four decades. Many industries, like travel, hospitality and tourism, are getting crushed. We rely on a lot of hospitality and tourism in my riding of Niagara West. Can the government tell us what their plans are to help the travel, hospitality and tourism industry that so many of my constituents depend on?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison (Niagara West, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his important question. I had a good conversation with the mayor of Niagara Falls recently, and we believe in the importance of the tourism sector. That's exactly why we've extended the wage subsidy until the end of August. There is the CEBA loan, the $40,000 loan. There is also spending through FedDev in my colleague's region. If he has clear, specific projects in the tourism sector that he needs help with, I would ask that he please come and see me and have a conversation.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the message from the president and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Perrin Beatty, and also other industries, is that we need a clear and coherent plan from this government because there's a whole hodgepodge of regulations and confusion about what's going to happen through the strategy. What I've told the government is that we need a strategy to reflect local conditions that is consistent and has a clear timeline so that businesses can begin to open safely and with confidence. What is the government doing to make this happen?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we absolutely agree. It is important for businesses to have an understanding of the programs that we've put in place. We have been consulting with businesses on the appropriate way to extend the wage subsidy so that we can continue to support businesses as they turn towards a safe restart. We've also looked very carefully at how we can ensure that the programs that we've put forward", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "We'll go back to Mr. Allison.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has come way short of meeting the Canadian demand for personal protective equipment. Some equipment procured from overseas has been substandard and couldn't be used. Because of the shortage, in my riding of Niagara West, dentists have to pay up to 10 times the amount for an N95 mask. Compared to early March, when will the government finally begin to produce enough PPE in Canada to meet Canadian demand?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. We have mobilized over 700 Canadian companies to help them retool and rescale their efforts to make more personal protective equipment in Canada as part of a made-in-Canada initiative. We're going to continue to work with industry to build up domestic capacity.", "speaker": "Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry)" }, { "content": "Global News is reporting that Canada is struggling to secure a reliable source of PPE. What's the evidence of this? We know that the government procured 10 million substandard N95 masks that couldn't be used. Masks were sent back to suppliers for having flaws. We received mouldy swabs to be used in COVID-19 tests. Planes are arriving empty that should have been filled with PPE, and we received less than 5% of our total order of gloves. It's clear that Canada needs to rely on Canada for PPE. When will this government finally begin to take PPE equipment issues seriously and make enough in Canada to meet demands by Canadians?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the honourable member's questions were tainted with inaccuracies. Regarding the flights that returned from China without federal cargo, Air Canada did reimburse the federal government for that amount. In addition, with regard to the N95 masks that were referenced, the Government of Canada will not pay for masks that it does not use. Furthermore, as my colleague Minister Bains just stated, we are mobilizing and retooling the domestic industry. Over half of the face shields that we have received were produced in Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement)" }, { "content": "At a time when the Prime Minister has ordered Canadians to stay home and businesses to remain closed, at a time when Canadians have had to say goodbye to their relatives over Skype, at a time when Canadians are not allowed to get married, at a time when Canadians are being fined for taking their kids to the park, at a time when restaurants are being fined $800 for allowing customers to eat outside and not being socially distanced, in these times, the Prime Minister's son attended a mass gathering with thousands of people while not socially distancing. Mr. Chair, why is it that there seems to be one set of rules in this country for some people but a different set for the Prime Minister? Why the double standard?", "speaker": "Mr. Dean Allison" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as the member knows, this country has been gripped with the need to stand up with one another to fight the experience of racism that so many Canadians live with and that so many of our American cousins live with. As the member knows, local public health sets advice for regions that he specified, and I would encourage all Canadians to check with local public health advice before they resume activities.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health)" }, { "content": "Now we'll go to Mr. Chiu.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Many Canadian veterans are noticing that medical providers are increasing their costs. Everything is more expensive these days, including medicine, etc. It can take upwards of a year for Veterans Affairs to adjust their rate scale to compensate, and they do not allow for retroactive reimbursement. What are the government's actions to alleviate this hardship for our men and women who stood guard for this country, our veterans?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu (StevestonRichmond East, CPC)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the fact is that when we inherited the government, Veterans Affairs needed a lot of support from government. In fact, at that time, we invested $10 billion to make sure that Veterans Affairs was put in place and that we could provide the appropriate supports for veterans, like the pension for life, the centre of excellence on PTSD and the chronic pain centre of excellence. All of these things are so important. We have to realize that with government previously", "speaker": "Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs)" }, { "content": "We'll now go back to Mr. Chiu.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister, for answeringor respondingto my question, although that really did not provide an answer, in my humble opinion. Part of the side effect of spending hundreds of millions of dollars is inflation. My constituents in StevestonRichmond East are overwhelmingly finding this government's support for seniors inadequate. The opposition has put forward clear proposals, such as a one-time tax-free withdrawal being allowed for an RRSP or a RRIF. So far, the government has not taken any action on this. Why is the government ignoring suggestions to help Canadian seniors?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I want seniors to know that they are not alone. To help preserve their registered retirement income fund assets, we are reducing minimum withdrawals by 25% for 2020. We're also providing direct financial support so that seniors can get the help they need now. As the market is volatile during this time, we continue to look at all ways that we can best help seniors during this difficult time.", "speaker": "Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors)" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Hong Kong government has arrested 9,000 civilians just in the past year. This is equivalent to the arrest of 42,000 people, proportional to Canada's population. It is anticipated that more unjust incarcerations will occur as Beijing imposes the national security law in Hong Kong. Has our government started preparing a list of names for Magnitsky-style sanctions, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, as we have said, we and our allies are deeply concerned with Beijing's decision to impose a national security law on Hong Kong. With hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, we have a vested interest in its stability and prosperity, the foundations of which are Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. The proposed law would also undermine the one country, two systems framework.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport)" }, { "content": "I thank the minister for responding. Again, however, words are not enough. It's time for action, because the Chinese embassy has said, in response to Canada's expressed concern, that they deplore, reject and condemn our response and our concerns thus far. What are the conditions for this government using Magnitsky sanctions should China continue to incarcerate Canadians and jeopardize the human rights of its citizens?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we have been very clear. We will continue to encourage all parties to engage in peaceful and meaningful dialogue to address the legitimate concerns expressed by the Hong Kong population. Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedom of the press around the world.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "Mr. Chiu, we have about 22 seconds, so you have time for a very quick question and hopefully a very quick answer.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Okay, here's a quick question. The Communist Chinese government has lied about COVID-19. They have issued statements against Canada and they have yet to release the two Canadians being held hostage. My constituents are concerned over this. When will this government listen to Canadians and call for a stronger, more effective and truly independent international investigation into COVID-19's origin?", "speaker": "Mr. Kenny Chiu" }, { "content": "The honourable minister has 22 seconds or less, please.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we are dealing with a global pandemic, COVID-19. It is critically important that all countries in the world work together in a transparent, open and respectful manner so that we understand what is going on and how we can bring it to an end as quickly as possible.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "The next question will come from Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, if the government orders someone who has been exposed to a confirmed COVID case into a 14-day quarantine, why won't the government allow them to take an antibody test to lift the quarantine so they can go back to work?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (RenfrewNipissingPembroke, CPC)" }, { "content": "As the member opposite may or may not know, testing strategies are determined by provinces and territories. Furthermore, the testing of a particular person has to be done at the right point in time", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, there have already been some tests that have been approved. My friend and colleague here, Colin Carrie, from the constituency of Oshawa, has a constituent who has a test. It's 90% accurate and it's being sold to the United States and other countries. Why won't they provide a DIN number to it so that Canadians have access to it as well, regardless of which province or territory they live in?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I think the member is talking about two separate things. Any test kit that would be approved by Health Canada would be accessible to wherever that company chose to market that test kit. Furthermore, it's really important that test kits that are approved by Health Canada be accurate and have been tested with rigour with regard to their ability to provide credible and accurate information to the people who are using that test.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the test has proven to have an accuracy rate of 90% in identifying whether or not an individual has antibodies. Why won't she allow it to be used here?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I am happy to follow up with the member opposite's office when she is able to provide me with the name of the company. As you can imagine, there are many vendors trying to", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "How long will it take for an antibody test to be approved by this government once you have the name of the company and the test and the evidence in front of you?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Before we go to the honourable minister, I just want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the chair and not directly. Go ahead, Minister.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "We have an expedited process that could be completed in as little as five to seven days, depending on the accuracy of the test and the information supplied by the vendor.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, will Health Canada use reputable data from other countries to speed their determinations about antibody effectiveness, or just continue to withhold access?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Canadians expect us, at Health Canada, to ensure the accuracy and the safety of all equipment approved for use in Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr. Chairman, if the minister can approve tests and studies within five days, why is it taking over 30, over 60, or over 90 days to approve an antibody test that exists?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "I appreciate the member opposite's interest in urgent and quick approvals; however, sometimes, depending on the company, there may be further questions and further tests that need to be run to ensure the accuracy or safety of that equipment. Should she wish me to check into the process for a particular", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We will go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Have officials provided the government with a target for a daily antibody test to complete an initial survey or the initial phase of a study?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is talking about the work of the immunity task force, which is, as you know, a group of scientists who have been funded by the Government of Canada", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We'll go back to Ms. Gallant.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Through you, Mr. Chair, would the minister please provide the names of the people on the task force to which she just referred?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I will forward those names to the office of the member opposite.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "I hope that will be within the next two days or so, and not wait until after the crisis has passed, Mr. Chairman. Why isn't the Prime Minister showing as much fervour for antibody testing as he is for getting a vaccine on the market?", "speaker": "Mrs. Cheryl Gallant" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I reject the premise of that question. In fact, the Prime Minister has shown fervour for all aspects of dealing with the coronavirus from the very inception of the virus on the world stage. To allege otherwise is quite disingenuous.", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "We'll go on to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "When will the government give the Auditor General the funds she needs to do her job?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC)" }, { "content": "First, Mr. Chair, I would like to offer my congratulations to the new Auditor General for her appointment. On behalf of the government, I would also like to offer her our full support and collaboration", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage)" }, { "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "I share the minister's wish to congratulate the new Auditor General on her position. I will now ask him again when he will give her the funds she needs to do her job.", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, her role is essential to our democracy. We are eager to work with her. She's more than welcome to share her concerns directly with the government. I can assure her that my", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "We'll go to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, I didn't ask him if he would like to work with the Auditor General. I asked him if he will give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job.", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our government has added 38 permanent staff positions to her office, while the Conservative government, under their leadership, cut the funding for more than 60", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "We'll move on to Mr. Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, through you, I caution the minister to not mislead this House. If he will look at the committee transcripts of the time, he will know that it was the Auditor General's decision to reduce their own budget. The Conservatives did not cut positions. That is a matter of fact. The point is that the Auditor General now does not have the money to do her job. She has cut performance audits and she has stopped work on performance audits. When will this government give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "With us, it was 38 new positions, Mr. Chair. With them, it was 60 positions fewer.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this government has drastically expanded its spending and is avoiding accountability in every way it can. The finance committee yesterday, with the support of Liberal backbench MPs who are on that committee, unanimously passed a motion to fund the Auditor General in full so that her office can do her job. If this minister will not listen to me, will he at least listen to his own backbenchers?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, our government is fully committed to supporting the important and ongoing work of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament. If the Auditor General identifies the need for additional resources, we will work with the Office of the Auditor General to ensure that they have all the resources they need to continue fulfilling their mandate efficiently and effectively.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, the Auditor General has consistently, since 2018, told this government that the office doesn't have enough funds. It's not a mystery. The Auditor General has told the public accounts committee that it cannot do its job. It's the first time in history that the Auditor General has had to tell public accounts that they don't have the resources to do their job. It's not a matter of if the Auditor General needs more funds. The Auditor General couldn't be more clear. When will this government actually do the right thing and fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, maybe I'm not making myself clear in English. I will switch to my native tongue, French, in case it becomes clearer. If the Auditor General identifies a need for additional resources, we will work with her to ensure that her office can continue to deliver its mandate efficiently and effectively. In addition, our government worked with the Auditor General to increase funding in 2018-09. With this increase, the office was able to add the equivalent of 38new full-time staff to its team. That's 38more employees", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "The floor goes to Mr.Kelly.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, this isn't an if situation. The Auditor General has already told this government that her office does not have funds. This has been ongoing since 2018. I would ask the minister to please stop with the platitudes and actually just say yes or no. Will the government give the Auditor General the money that the Auditor General has already asked for?", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "Mr. Chair, we have already increased the budget of the Office of the Auditor General in the 2018-19 period.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Before we continue, we're going to suspend for a second to bring in the next chair.", "speaker": "The Chair" }, { "content": "There's a point of order.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends (BrossardSaint-Lambert, Lib.))" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I know that no member would knowingly mislead the House. No member wants to do that. It's always customary to give members a chance to correct the record, so I call upon the minister to do so now, and perhaps even the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister misled the House in his response to a question. I have here the transcripts of the public accounts committee, and they will confirm that the", "speaker": "Mr. Pat Kelly" }, { "content": "This is beginning to sound a bit like debate. We will proceed. Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. First, I would like to take this opportunity to say hi from Portugal. I would also like to inform you that I will be sharing my time with my colleague and friend, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean. Obrigado. While Quebec estimates its additional health care costs related to COVID-19 at $3billion, Ottawa is transferring around $115million, which is not even4%. Does the government recognize that this is clearly insufficient?", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as the member opposite knows, we invested an initial $500 million in transfers to the provinces and territories to manage the extreme pressure put on health care systems as a result of their supporting people living with COVID and in preventing COVID. We want to thank the provinces and territories for their work, and as the member opposite knows, we will continue to be there for the provinces and territories. This is a significant transfer, and we think", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, the minister says that this is a substantial transfer. Yes, it is a lot of money. The government is giving about $115million to Quebec, but that is not even 4%of what is being requested. Does the minister recognize that much more is needed?", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie" }, { "content": "We have been working with the provinces and territories from the beginning to respond to the crisis. We have increased health care transfers, provided medical protective equipment and responded to all requests for assistance. We have been able to make so much progress in the fight against COVID-19 precisely because of this co-operation. Stirring up an imaginary quarrel between the federal government and Quebec", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Ste-Marie, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, it isn't about squabbling, it's about needs. The share that the federal government is giving isn't enough. We should act now, before we see a possible second wave. What we're seeing today are the results of massive disinvestment by the federal government in health care. This isn't good enough. The government must act quickly. Can the government commit to better funding to the health care sector and to organizing a meeting with Quebec and the provinces on this exact topic, in September at the latest? We can't afford to wait.", "speaker": "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie" }, { "content": "The hon. minister's response will have to be brief.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, with respect to the transfers to provinces and territories, the member opposite knows that our government, in our last mandate, significantly increased transfers to the provinces and territories for health services, including mental health and home care services. In fact, the funding we're providing is in addition to the $40 billion that was transferred", "speaker": "Hon. Patty Hajdu" }, { "content": "Mr.Brunelle-Duceppe.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, MadamChair. Tudo bem? Tudo bom? Today in La Presse, we learned that the government has extended its military presence in long-term care homes. Can the minister confirm this information, and can he also confirm that the presence of these 500soldiers is indeed in response to a request from the Government of Quebec?", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, let me assure the member that when Quebec made a request for assistance at the beginning of April, we answered the call. When they asked for an extension of that, we said we would continue to provide that assistance. I had a conversation today with Minister Guilbault, my counterpart in Quebec, and we have renewed our commitment to continuing to provide assistance. That assistance can take additional forms and can include involving the Canadian Red Cross, but we remain committed to providing the assistance that Quebec needs.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "If I understand correctly, negotiations are still under way with the Government of Quebec, even though it needs these soldiers. The mission ends Friday. This isn't really the time to negotiate anymore. We have to make sure that the military will stay in our long-term care homes as long as we need their services in Quebec, and until new attendants have been trained. Can the minister confirm that the mission will indeed be extended?", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe" }, { "content": "I'd like to assure this House that we have assured Quebec that the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to provide support until such time as other trained professional people are able to do that job. We're working very hard with the Province of Quebec. We're working with the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross. We will be there for Quebeckers because they need our help, and as long as they need our help, we'll be there to support them.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "This isn't the time to play cat-and-mouse. The only thing we have to do is to give the Government of Quebec what it's asking for. Quebec pays 23%of the army's budget, so Quebeckers are entitled to this support. Quebec has more than 5,000deaths from COVID-19, 90%of which have been in seniors' residences or long-term care homes. The military's presence is vital because they play an extraordinary and essential role. Will the minister commit to extending the mission now and putting an end to this uncertainty? It's certainly bad for both the military and the health care workers, who rely on this support.", "speaker": "Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe" }, { "content": "The hon. minister has 10seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Again, Madam Chair, let me be very clear. We have made a commitment to the Province of Quebec that we will continue to provide that support until the middle of September, exactly as they have requested, but we are also working to ensure that we have an sustainable, effective solution to the request that Quebec has made, so we're working with the Province of Quebec, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Red Cross to ensure the help that is needed is there.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Blair" }, { "content": "We will go now to Bryan May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure and an honour to be with you all today. I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member of Parliament for Scarborough North. Madam Chair, COVID-19 continues to create challenges for all Canadians, including those with disabilities, and exacerbates those experienced by Canadians with disabilities. As we mark the end of National AccessAbility Week, I would like to remind our colleagues that our commitment to making Canada more inclusive and equitable is ongoing, including our passing of the Accessible Canada Act. Would the minister inform the House about the government's plans to support Canadians with disabilities who are experiencing increased costs due to COVID-19?", "speaker": "Mr. Bryan May (Cambridge, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, last week was the first National AccessAbility Week that was legislated under the historic Accessible Canada Act, and I thank every party in this House for the consent they gave to that legislation. I'm hoping we have the same spirit of camaraderie for people with disabilities this afternoon. Since the beginning, Madam Chair, we have taken a disability inclusion approach on how we support people with disabilities in this time of pandemic, including the establishment of our COVID-19 disability advisory group, which has given us invaluable advice. I thank them so much for their contributions to our efforts. Last week we announced a suite of measures to support people with disabilities that complement existing measures that are in place. This includes a one-time payment of $600 to 1.25 million citizens with disabilities, which again is the subject matter of the legislation this afternoon, as well as a $15-million investment in an accessible workplace initiative that will ensure, moving forward.... We know that as we move back into employment situations it will be very tough for people with disabilities. Finally, there are five really exciting accessible technology initiatives, including working on point-of-sale terminals for Canadians who are blind or visually impaired.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion)" }, { "content": "You may have a very short question, Mr. May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "I want to take this opportunity to thank the minister and her department for all the work they are doing to ensure that accessibility is at the forefront of everybody's mind through this crisis.", "speaker": "Mr. Bryan May" }, { "content": "Mr. Chen is next.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as humanity battles COVID-19, we are confronted by the stark realities of another disease. On May 25, George Floyd fell unconscious and died as a police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes. This all happened after the 46-year-old black man was handcuffed and put in a position where he could do no harm. In Canada, we have come a long way since Viola Desmond, yet there is much more to do. Anti-black racism is institutionalized, hidden under dominant narratives of a free and multicultural society. Hatred has no boundaries, whether it is against black communities or is anti-Asian sentiment fuelled by COVID-19. The question always is this: Who is next? We must all stand up together against hatred and for justice and reconciliation, to dismantle systems of oppression that long remained unquestioned. Recent data from Statistics Canada shows that Canada is failing black youth, creating the conditions that push them into the justice system. To the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth, my question is this: What is the government doing to address the unique challenges faced by black youth?", "speaker": "Mr. Shaun Chen (Scarborough North, Lib.)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the member for Scarborough North is absolutely correct. We must all do what we can to stand up against hatred and injustice. We often say that today's youth are not only the leaders of tomorrow but the leaders of today, so we need to equip them for success by investing in youth. According to the 2016 census, black Canadians accounted for 1.2 million people, and more than a quarter of that population is under the age of 15. Socio-economic gaps, such as in employment and education, exist between black and non-black youth. We need to do better. Our government has brought forward youth so they can inform the decisions we make. We have Canada's first youth policy, and it was created by youth for youth to ensure that all young people are equipped to live healthy and fulfilling lives, and are empowered to create positive change for themselves and their communities. Our government launched the community support for black Canadian youth program, which supported 56 projects geared to address the unique challenges faced by black Canadian youth through the development of leadership skills and civic engagement, while empowering them through the promotion of black history, culture and identity. To address the challenges of the pandemic, our government has implemented a suite of measures designed to help youth and students, including with employment and service opportunities. My office is working with community organizations who serve black youth to make sure they too are both aware of and benefiting from these measures.", "speaker": "Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth)" }, { "content": "Ms. Mathyssen is next.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I will be splitting my time with the member for TimminsJames Bay. Schools in many provinces remain closed, and many child care providers want to reopen. They must reduce their capacity due to COVID-19. Now more than ever we need universal, publicly funded child care to restart the economy. Will the government bring in legislation that would enshrine into law access to, and federal funding for, quality affordable child care?", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (LondonFanshawe, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we are, of course, committed to investments in child care. We have constantly worked with provinces and territories to ensure that we provide the supports they need to provide quality, affordable and accessible child care. Since 2015, we have created over 40,000 child care spaces. We are committed to creating an additional 250,000 before-school and after-school child care spaces.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development)" }, { "content": "The government doesn't seem to understand that this is not universal child care. During COVID-19, women have lost the majority of jobs, and they have taken on the majority of additional child care responsibilities. Canadian women want and need to return to work, but this government doesn't understand that without affordable child care, they simply cannot re-enter the workforce. For 26 years, Liberal governments have been promising, but failing to deliver, a universal child care program. Parents are paying the price. How much longer do parents have to wait?", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I want to thank the honourable member for the important question. Since 2015, we have created 40,000 affordable, accessible, quality child care spaces across the country. We are on track to continue to invest $7.5 billion over 11 years to create additional child care spaces and support provinces and territories. We're constantly in touch with our counterparts to work to strengthen that sector. We are also keeping our promise and our commitment to create an additional 250,000 spaces. We will be there for parents as they get back to work, and we will continue to reinforce the early learning and child care sector.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen" }, { "content": "You have time for a very short question, Ms. Mathyssen.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Without universal child care, we are crippling our economy. We are not providing an affordable system, and this stops women from returning to work. Instead of helping parents return to work, the government is now bringing forward legislation that's penalizing them. Why is the government looking to sentence mothers and fathers to jail time and large fines when they cannot find the child care that", "speaker": "Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen" }, { "content": "The honourable minister has time for a short answer.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We are committed to the early learning and child care sector. We will move forward with the creation of an early learning and child care secretariat. We will continue to invest in this sector. We recognize its importance.", "speaker": "Hon. Ahmed Hussen" }, { "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Angus.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an honour to be here, and I'm hoping that you and your family stay safe at this time. COVID has shaken up Canada's middle class, so my question is for the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity. This morning I spoke with a businesswoman. She runs her own business, a travel agency, but because of COVID she has been wiped out. She's on CERB, and it's ticking down. There's no work to go back to, so in four weeks she hits the economic wall. Will the minister fight for an extension of CERB so this woman can stay in the middle class?", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we know how worried Canadians are as they see their final four-week period of the CERB approaching, and we're working very hard to ensure that the CERB continues to serve an important purpose as we move into economic recovery. I'll note that when we created the CERB, there was a different purpose in mind. We were asking people to stay home. Now we're asking people to go back to work if it's safe for them to do so. We're going to make sure that the wage subsidy and the CERB complement each other. In fact, the measures in today's legislation will help us to get the flexibility to be able to do just that.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We did give you a little more time. We will go to Mr. Angus.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you for that. What I've seen with their legislation today is that they're talking about jailing people. We need a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity in a time of middle-class disparity, and she has talked about middle-class criminality. Let's talk about this again, about people going back to work. I spoke with a 51-year-old bartender. He's a professional; this is his job. There is no job to go back to. Will the minister assure us that this man will be able to stay in the middle class because the CERB will still be there in July, yes or no?", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus" }, { "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we've been helping Canadians by putting programs in place. We will continue to support families during the crisis, and afterwards as well.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier" }, { "content": "Mr. Angus, you have time for a very short comment or question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "The issue here is that when COVID hit, millions of Canadians were living in such precarious working conditions that they didn't even have enough money to pay their rent. That is a damning indictment. In four weeks, those Canadians are going to hit the economic wall again. What I need to know from the minister, and what Canadians need to know, is whether she will commit, yes or no, that the CERB will be there for those who have no work to go back to.", "speaker": "Mr. Charlie Angus" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, since the beginning of the crisis, we have been helping families with a supplement to the Canada child benefit. We have put in place the Canada emergency response benefit. We will continue to find ways to support Canadian families during this crisis.", "speaker": "Hon. Mona Fortier" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cooper.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. It was all the way back on March 25 that the Minister of Finance stated that help for the energy sector was coming within hours, possibly days. Well, as it turns out, it hasn't been hours. It hasn't been days. It hasn't even been weeks. Indeed, months later, help has yet to arrive. Seventy-seven days after the minister made that statement, not a single energy company has received financing under EDC, the BDC, or the LEEFF program. As the energy sector faces an unprecedented liquidity crisis, how can this government possibly justify such a delay?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper (St. AlbertEdmonton, CPC)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, weeks ago we opened applications through the business credit availability program to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We've also opened applications for measures that will be available to our larger players through our LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry. We will continue to support workers, and we will continue to do so to get through this unprecedented challenge.", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, on June 2, the vice-president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers said, The entire industry is frustrated with the delay that we are facing. The Saskatchewan Minister of Energy and Resources has spoken about a gaping hole that exists in terms of support for the energy sector. The gaping hole that I'm speaking of is the EDC and BDC programs that this government has failed to deliver upon. Indeed, it was on April 17 that those programs were announced, and 54 days later, not only has not a single energy company received financing, but guess what? They can't even apply, and the eligibility criteria have yet to be finalized after 54 days. If that is not failing to deliver for the energy sector, what is?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Business Council of Alberta has said that the LEEFF program is a positive development showing that the federal government recognizes the needs and value of Canada's large corporations. We agree. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through two crises: the impacts of COVID and the effects of a global price war initiated by Russia and Saudi Arabia. That's why, weeks ago, we opened applications for liquidity measures to support the small and medium-sized players that make up 85% of the jobs in our sector. We also announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry to make sure these programs are effective.", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, contrary to the representations of the minister, neither the EDC program nor BDC programs are accepting applications. Just yesterday officials from both BDC and EDC were before the finance committee, where I posed precisely those questions to them. We know, Madam Chair, that the application process isn't up and running and that eligibility criteria remain to be determined, but I guess this government has some good news for the energy sector after 77 days. Now energy sector companies can go on the BDC website and apply for email updates. Is that the kind of help the Minister of Finance had in mind after 77 days: email updates instead of real relief for the energy sector?", "speaker": "Mr. Michael Cooper" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Alberta finance minister, Travis Toews, said in a LEEFF announcement that in combination with earlier measures for small and medium-sized companies, it represented an expression of confidence in our industries. It is essential that we support our oil and gas sector as it suffers through these two crisesas I said, the impact of COVID, and then on top of that, the effect of a global price war. We opened up applications for liquidity measures as the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers asked. Their top five asks were all liquidity. We supported small and medium-sized players essential to the supply chain, who make up 85% of the jobs in that sector, and then we announced liquidity made available to our larger players through the LEEFF program. We will continue to work with industry and", "speaker": "Hon. Seamus O'Regan" }, { "content": "I now have to interrupt for a few moments to allow our technicians to change places. With that done, Monsieur Martel, you may now go ahead..", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, there has recently been positive progress in AndrGauthier's case, and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Prime Minister for their co-operation in this matter. However, Mr.Gauthier is currently on his own in the United Arab Emirates, without a passport, waiting to settle civil lawsuits. What services does the minister intend to provide to help him, and when does he plan to repatriate AndrGauthier to Canada?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, in all cases similar to Mr.Gauthier's, the Government of Canada, through its consular services, tries to do the best it can under the circumstances. This file is still active.", "speaker": "Hon. Marc Garneau" }, { "content": "The House recognized on February18, 2020, that the 15weeks of sickness benefits provided by employment insurance were insufficient. Citizens who became ill before March15 are now without help. They are being denied the CERB because they didn't lose their jobs because of COVID-19. They are being denied EI regular benefits because they are unable to work. In addition, some citizens are waiting for surgery, which is being delayed because of COVID-19. Is the government letting these people down?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "No, MadamChair, that's absolutely not the case. Of course, we understand that people who are no longer receiving EI benefits should have access to the CERB. We have committed to extending the emergency sickness benefit to 26weeks. We're working with everyone here to make that happen. We're taking into account the needs and circumstances of all citizens in our efforts to help Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "I've called on the Minister of Economic Development several times to be more flexible in establishing these programs, so that they are better adapted to the realities of the regions. Recently, it was the SMEs in Montreal that were monopolizing the funds earmarked for the regions. When will the Liberal government listen to the needs of regions like SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "I thank my colleague for the opportunity to announce the good news that was mentioned on Radio-Canada this morning, namely, $71million more for the regions of Quebec. Of course, we're here for the regions. I will be happy to work with my colleague to ensure that the CFDC in his region can support businesses. We have to support businesses in SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean and across the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "I think that's a canned speech. According to a survey conducted by the Universit de Trois-Rivires in Quebec, the SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean region is apparently the most economically affected by COVID-19. We have many projects, but they depend on the government's leadership to be carried out. Our region has forestry, the aluminum sector, GNL Qubec, tourism, the Port of Saguenay, Davie Canada, a military base and a tax centre. It's all here. We know we'll have to get the economy moving again soon. When will the government act to help our region?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "Every day, we act to help my colleague's region. I've had good conversations with Promotion Saguenay. I've also spoken several times with various stakeholders in my colleague's beautiful region. We will always be there for them. I'd like to tell my colleague that there will be other announcements to support the economic development of the beautiful region of SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. I will be happy to work with him to achieve good results.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Sustainable forestry development is at the heart of the economic development of Canada and for SaguenayLac-Saint-Jean. Canadians have reason to be proud of the use of the boreal forest in the fight against climate change. Currently, our innovative forest industry is experiencing many problems, and on top of that, there is the COVID-19 crisis. Who will defend our forestry workers?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Martel" }, { "content": "Of course, we believe in the importance of regional economic development. That's why we're always there to defend our forestry workers. I will also be pleased to work with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, who is very familiar with the matter and who knows the challenges faced by the various businesses in the forestry sector, as well as the employees. We will always be there to support employees and create more jobs across Quebec and the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota is next. Go ahead, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. We continue to see significant gaps in the Liberals' programs. There are still people who are falling through the cracks and being left behind. We are hearing from women who are pregnant or who have just given birth and are being left out or told to go back to work. When will this government stop letting Canadians down?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC)" }, { "content": "We know that there are many situations of Canadians who are about to or are just going on maternity or parental benefits who might not have access to their EI benefits due to not having accumulated enough time for COVID reasons. We're working very hard to make sure, as we did for fish harvesters, that we support all Canadians in these situations. I look forward to advising Canadians of our approach on this very soon.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, that simply isn't good enough. This is something that has been brought to the government's attention for months now, and still nothing has been done. These families deserve answers now. Had the government conducted a GBA+ analysis, they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women. Why wasn't a GBA+ conducted?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls. We are working hard to ensure that everyone has the supports they need. As we move forward, we are, as I said earlier, taking into consideration improvements to the EI system, the wage subsidy and the future of CERB. All these play together as we work to provide a comprehensive forward-looking support package for Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA+? Why was it not done?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB. I can tell you that women are benefiting significantly from this benefit.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, it is a simple question, and I will ask again. Why was GBA+ analysis not conducted for the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way, from the beginning, as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, if that's the case, then how did you miss these gaps?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member that we didn't miss gaps. We, from the beginning, looked to support as many people as possible. As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors, and today to supporting people with disabilities, we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures. As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery, of course we're going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the minister needs to take the responsibility here. These women and families deserve answers. This is a real problem happening right now. You said you would conduct GBA+ analysis on all policy measures moving forward. Where is the assistance for these expectant mothers?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I take responsibility. I'm very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures, how many women received the GST credit, how many women who lead families received the CCB one-time payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have all-party consent today.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota, may I remind you to please direct your questions through the chair?", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I will ask again, hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "My goodness, Madam Chair. I'll say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls, and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase, how completely we make women at the core of every decision.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Ms. Sahota, you have 15 seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, my question is still not answered. She keeps repeating the same answer. I'll keep asking the same question, hoping for a straightforward answer. Why was a GBA+ analysis not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs?", "speaker": "Ms. Jag Sahota" }, { "content": "Honourable minister, you have five seconds.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we've taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning, and we'll continue to do so.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We go now to Mr. Carrie.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 I asked Minister Blair why Lisa Freeman, a constituent of mine, wasn't able to participate in the Parole Board hearing of her father's murderer. The minister acknowledged that this had been a mistake and that victims would now be able to attend by telephone and video conference. Can the minister tell this House how many parole hearings have been conducted under this digital format with victims since April 29?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank my honourable colleague for the question. I'm glad to hear that Minister Blair was able to provide information on the specific case he raises. With regard to his question, we're happy to provide it to him in due course.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino (Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship)" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, on April 29 the minister said, and I quote, Steps have been taken to make it possible for victims to participate in those parole hearings virtually by phone or video conference. If the change has been made, can the minister please tell us how many hearings victims have been able to participate in by video conference?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, certainly we will confirm the number of hearings that may have occurred. With regard to the hearings under the Parole Board of Canada, we want to ensure that victims and others are able to participate in a fair and transparent manner.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madame Chair, the website says, To protect the health and safety of the public, offenders, Parole Board...members and staff in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the PBC is currently conducting its hearings remotely via video conference or teleconference. However, when referring to victim participation, the PBC says it has Implemented technological and procedural enhancements in order to provide victims...the ability to participate...via telephone. If video conference is an option for staff and inmates, why is it not for victims?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I said, it is very important that all parties be able to participate before the Parole Board. The Parole Board has introduced technologies to allow victims to participate in a manner that is fair and that accords them the opportunity to express themselves.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the minister is missing the point. For victims, besides the criminal trial, the Parole Board hearings are the only chance to participate in the judicial process. Why are victims not permitted on the video conference, while staff, panels and inmates are?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said now on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in the hearings before the Parole Board. This is as a result of technology and innovations introduced by the Parole Board. Of course, those opportunities will continue to exist going forward.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Then, Madam Chair, why did the minister and this government tell Canadians and the House that victims of crime have the opportunity to participate in parole hearings by video conference, when in fact they do not?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as I've said, of course we are going to confirm the status of that particular request. In the meantime, as I've said on a number of occasions, victims are able to participate in these hearings. This is consistent with the fairness of those hearings and the due process we accord to them.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, it's been over a month. When will the minister finally give victims of crime the same right to parole hearings by video conference as he gives convicted inmates?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I reject that proposition. The Parole Board is a well-established tribunal that does allow for all parties, including victims, to participate in a manner that is fair, and that allows them to express themselves so those representations can be taken into account in the decisions of the Parole Board of Canada.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "He can reject it as much as he wants, Madam Chair, but it seems he thinks it's fair that inmates have that right, but victims don't. We'll follow up with him on that. Brandon Hottot owns and operates a contracting business in my riding, and his company needs help. On May 19, the Prime Minister announced the government would allow sole proprietors and gig contractors to qualify for the Canada emergency business account; however, Brandon has still not been able to take advantage of this benefit. When can small business owners like Brandon expect this change to finally be made? It's been over three weeks, and the clock is ticking.", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, from the very beginning, we have been working hard to support our small businesses. Over 660,000 businesses today have received access to small business loans. I want to assure my colleague that additional support will be there within about a week.", "speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade)" }, { "content": "Mr. Carrie, you may have a very short question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Okay, Madam Chair. Shawn and Denise operate a gymnastics facility in Whitby and have been forced to close throughout COVID-19. As the economy begins to open, they are concerned about not having the money to pay their employees in the short term, especially at a reduced client capacity. Is the government extending the wage subsidy to small businesses that have been closed and are just beginning to open now?", "speaker": "Mr. Colin Carrie" }, { "content": "The wage subsidy has been extended until August 31. We hope businesses like that one will be able to take advantage of the wage subsidy to keep their employees on staff.", "speaker": "Hon. Mary Ng" }, { "content": "We will go now to Ms. May.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Just to put it on the record, because we may or may not be debating it, the draft embargoed bill that we've seen is unacceptable to members of the Green Party caucus. My questions will relate largely to those sections that are troublesome. I'll start with a question to the honourable minister for disabilities. I certainly appreciate her work and I know her intentions are the best, but part 3 of this bill allows for the information to be shared so people can get a one-time payment of $600, which is not enough to really deal with the COVID crisis for people with disabilities. It's clearand I thank the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party for making this point clearly in question periodit will reach approximately 40% of people with disabilities because of the structure of going through the disability tax credit. To the honourable minister, are other measures under consideration to reach the rest of the people in Canada with disabilities who need help?", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the disability support payment we are proposing and that we hope to get through the House today complements a whole suite of measures our government has put in place that people with disabilities have access to. We know that people with disabilities who were precariously employed are now taking advantage of the CERB. Students with disabilities get the student benefit, including a $750-per-month top-up for four months. Families with children with disabilities are getting the CCB payment. Disproportionately, people with disabilities are benefiting from the GST payment. I should talk about the provincial letters that are being delivered to recipients of provincial disability supports. All around, Madam Chair, we're trying to get to every citizen with a disability, and this measure fills an important gap.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Much worse than part 3, from our point of view, is the treatment of people who are at this point potentially to be jailed for refusing to return to work when it's considered reasonable and they are recipients of CERB. I wonder about the reasonableness here. It's a subjective test. This is a wrong-headed approach to go after people and threaten them. The retroactive section has already made the Canadian Civil Liberties Association question its constitutionality. To the minister, what's reasonable, and in whose eyes is it reasonable? In today's news, Hamilton's chief medical officer says there is a spike in cases among young people, who likely were exposed while taking public transit to get to work. Their commute wasn't safe. Who determines reasonableness in deciding it's not safe to go back to work?", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, as with the current CERB, moving forward it tries to encompass the situations of people who are unemployed, people who can't work because of child care responsibilities, people who are ill or sick. Moving to a broad term of reasonableness allows us to look at the individual circumstances of the person. If we stuck to language like suitable or appropriate, that would qualify the job. We're trying to look at the person and their particular circumstances as we work to ensure that if someone is immunocompromised and can't take transit to their job, then it's reasonable for them not to take that job. That's the exact example we're trying to encompass with broad reasonableness criteria.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "The approach is so very flawed, Madam Chair, in that it attempts to punish people as opposed to encouraging them. I think the Liberals have been overly influenced by the Conservative Party's cries that there's vast fraud, that Canadians are cheating. The reality is that if you want to create an incentive to go back to work, you don't threaten people. What you do is create a sliding scale. You let people continue to receive CERB, but maybe less as they begin to earn more, so that you have a transition on a sliding scale to go into the wage subsidy or into CERB. I ask the honourable minister this: How can it be considered fair to say that someone isn't eligible, even though they believed they were? The language in this bill, particularly at proposed paragraph 12.1 in the penalties section, is an unreasonable determination that someone has violated the act and is subject to jail time and heavy fines.", "speaker": "Ms. Elizabeth May" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, because of parliamentary privilege, I can't and won't speak to specific acts of a piece of law that hasn't actually been introduced in the House, but I'll tell you that what we're trying to do is enhance our integrity measures. We're working with those people who made an honest mistake, those who took advantage of returning to work when they were still receiving the CERB. We're working with those people. We're absolutely confident that those people will find a path forward. We want to deal with intentional fraudsters, people who are criminally taking advantage of seniors. Members of this House have brought fact patterns to my attention and have said, Please deal with these. This is exactly what we're trying to deal with, Madam Chair.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to be sharing my time with the member from EsquimaltSaanichSooke. Tourism is a critical part of the economy throughout my riding, and after struggling with years of forest fires and floods, tourism was set to have a record-breaking year in 2020, but the COVID epidemic has burned tourism to the ground, in the words of a local leader. Thousands of jobs have evaporated. Over half of the tourism businesses in the region are facing imminent insolvency. Many of them are small seasonal operations that don't qualify for any of the government's COVID support programs. While funding for ad campaigns is appreciated, these businesses need direct support and they need certainty about that support. Can the finance minister pledge now to provide direct and timely support to tourism businesses in my riding?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings" }, { "content": "Thank you to my colleague for his important question. I agree with him. The tourism sector has been deeply impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis. Yes, we were looking forward to another record-breaking year in 2020, but unfortunately the pandemic happened, and therefore many businesses were impacted. That's why, as a government, we're there to help with the wage subsidy, which has been extended until the end of August, as the tourism sector has been asking us to do; with the CEBA loans, the $40,000 loans, which also include a subsidy; and with the commercial rent relief. That said, we know the tourism sector also sometimes falls through the cracks. That's why we wanted to have a backstop. We came up with funding through the regional development agencies. In my colleague's riding, it's Western Economic Diversification. Some businesses have applied and have received funding. If there are more that need help, please come and see me. I would love to be there to help your community, help tourism", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Cannings.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "A big part of tourism in my riding is the wine sector. One thing that has allowed the wine industry to grow so dramatically in the past few decades is the excise tax exemption. That exemption could likely end very soon if it is found to be non-compliant with our trade agreements. The industry has proposed a trade-legal replacement, the wine growers' value-added program. The finance minister has known about this situation for months. Can he assure this House and the industry that the government will act immediately to implement this program?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Cannings" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a very short answer, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We continue to work on this issue. We recognize how important the wine industry is in B.C., and I assure the honourable member that I will come back to him and give him an update.", "speaker": "Hon. Bill Morneau" }, { "content": "Now we will go to Mr. Garrison.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, this is National Blood Donor Week in Canada. While blood and plasma donations are always important, during this pandemic they're critical. There's a simple and effective way to increase the blood supply: End the gay blood ban. More than 17 other countries have no deferral because they know that behaviour-based screening provides better security for the blood supply than identity-based exclusions. The Liberals must agree, because they promised this in two election campaigns. Will the Minister of Health do more than repeat those same promises today and instead take action to get this unscientific and discriminatory gay blood ban lifted?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison (EsquimaltSaanichSooke, NDP)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I'm glad to be able to answer this very important question. We indeed want to fight against discrimination. We feel this particularly strongly in the context of the last few days and the last few weeks. We are also mindful of the important contribution of scientists and other experts in this area. We look forward to working with all members in this House in making progress on that issue.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board)" }, { "content": "The government knows I've been calling on friends, family and allies of the gay community to donate blood this week in the place of those of us who cannot. Not only do we need routine blood donations, but to do the research we need on possible prevention and treatment of COVID-19, we urgently need plasma donations from those who have recovered. This ban means that plasma donations are being rejected for no good scientific reason. Again, when will the Minister of Health act to get this ban lifted?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I think the member used the right key words in referring to science and more prevention work to make sure that everyone lives in dignity and safety. Although there has been progress in the last few months and years on this important issue, there is more work to be done.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos" }, { "content": "Six years ago this week, I tabled a motion in the House that called for an end to this homophobic and transphobic ban on blood donations from gay men, men who have sex with men and trans women. That was five ministers of health ago. At the time, I was told certain things had to happen before the ban could be lifted. These were all due to be completed earlier this year, before the COVID crisis. Since we appear to have cross-party support for my new motion, M-41, that I put on the notice paper this week, would the minister and the government agree to support a unanimous consent motion to proceed with M-41 immediately?", "speaker": "Mr. Randall Garrison" }, { "content": "The honourable minister may give a short answer, please.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Thank you, Madam Chair. Homophobia and transphobia are examples of discrimination and absolutely important things not only to recognize but to fight against. That's why we are pleased to have voices such as the member of Parliament's voice to make sure that we make progress in making sure that everyone in Canada lives in safety and in dignity.", "speaker": "Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos" }, { "content": "Mr.Blanchette-Joncas.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I will share my time with the honourable member for LongueuilSaint-Hubert. As Quebec starts to gradually emerge from the general lockdown, the outlook for the recovery of the tourism industry remains bleak. The economy of several regions of Quebec depends on tourism to ensure stability and balance, which will be beneficial in the coming months. Is the Minister of Finance prepared to extend the Canada emergency response benefit beyond 16weeks to ensure a living wage for tourism workers?", "speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, as I said in English, we're working very hard to continue to be there for all Canadians, whether it's through the CERB or the Canada emergency wage subsidy. Please excuse me, I'm very tired. I'll continue in English. We're going to have news on this very soon, Madam Chair, but the point is that we want to make sure that all of these programs work well together, whether it's the wage subsidy or the CERB. We want to make sure that we incentivize work, but we still continue to be there for Canadians.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "We read that the government wants to gradually replace the Canada emergency response benefit by using the Canada emergency wage subsidy. That's all well and good, but seasonal industries aren't entitled to it under the current criteria. If the minister is aware of the importance of the tourism industry in the economic cycle of our regions, he must commit to helping workers. If the clientele isn't there, the industry will simply no longer exist. We still need the Canada emergency response benefit. We simply need to make it an employment incentive so as not to hurt people who are lucky enough to be able to go back to work. The question is simple: will the government commit to renewing it?", "speaker": "Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, we are working hard to make sure we continue to support Canadians as we transition through economic recovery. We want to make sure that we support Canadians, but of course we don't want to disincentivize work. The CERB was created for a different purpose. We asked people to stay home to be safe and to self-isolate if they had symptoms. We want to make sure that as we ask people to go back to work, we don't disincentivize work, but the reality is that there won't be jobs there for everyone, and we need to continue to support everyone.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "Mr.Trudel, you have the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I join my colleague in extending my good wishes to you on Portugal's national day. Apart from the fact that it is probably the most beautiful riding in Quebec, the riding of LongueuilSaint-Hubert has surely been one of the hardest hit by the pandemic, both in terms of health and the economy. There are industries here, but also many service businesses, including bars, restaurants and theatres. But we aren't close to being able to go back and see a show by WajdiMouawad or FredPellerin, and that's a shame. We must work to calm the anxiety of these people. The arts sector was the first to stop its activities and will be the last to resume them. There is a lot of anxiety. The CERB ends on July4. Will the government extend the CERB, with an employment incentive?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel (LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ)" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I thank my colleague for his question and all the work he's doing in arts and culture. From the outset, we've been there to support our artists and arts organizations. We introduced the Canada emergency response benefit, for example, but also the emergency wage subsidy, which we made available to non-governmental organizations. To ensure that people who receive royalties aren't penalized under the Canada emergency response benefit, we have adapted it. We announced a $500million fund to specifically help the arts and culture sector. In fact, we understand very well that this sector has been severely affected by the current crisis. We've been there for our artists and artisans, and we will continue to be.", "speaker": "Hon. Steven Guilbeault" }, { "content": "Perfect. Instead of giving a long preamble, I'll ask a very simple question: will the CERB be extended on July5?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel" }, { "content": "The hon. minister has the floor.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I can assure the member opposite that in July we will be there for Canadian workers.", "speaker": "Hon. Carla Qualtrough" }, { "content": "In my riding, a nice little restaurant called Crpe Caf on St-Charles Street in Longueuil has just closed its doors. It's final; it won't reopen. Another restaurant owner told me that he was going to reopen his restaurant, but he didn't know at what capacity. Would it be at 15%, 30%, 40%? No one knows. The speed at which the economy will recover is the big unknown. How many hours a week will it be able to offer its employees? Will it be 12hours, 15hours, 22hours? Will employees even want to return to work to put in 12hours a week? If the CERB isn't adjusted, nothing will happen. Will the government commit to extending the CERB and providing an employment incentive to get the economy moving again at full speed?", "speaker": "Mr. Denis Trudel" }, { "content": "MadamChair, I know, of course, that the restaurant sector has been much affected. I have a great deal of empathy for what entrepreneurs and my colleague are going through in his riding. That's why we are currently helping our SMEs. We have money for economic development. The money is available through Canada Economic Development, or CED. If my colleague wants to work with me to provide support to restaurant owners and other restaurants in Longueuil, I'd be very happy to do so.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "We will go to Mr. Bragdon.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, last month, on May 5, I asked the government how it plans to support the agriculture sector. The Liberals announced a $50-million food surplus purchase program as part of the agricultural aid package. Now, one month later, our farmers, who provide the food we need, are still waiting on funds to be delivered. The New Brunswick potato industry is sitting on a massive amount of last year's crop that, because of the pandemic, has no buyers. When will the Prime Minister and the government step up and deliver the support our farmers so desperately need?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, without question we want to continue to support farmers. My colleague Minister Bibeau has introduced hundreds of millions of dollars for farmers. In addition to that, we have provided relief and support for migrant workers, who are ensuring that Canadians have access to safe and affordable food.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, when support for the agriculture sector was announced on May 4, our agriculture sector had been sounding the alarm for weeks that they needed help to continue to meet Canadians' food needs. It has been over a month since that announcement, and our farmers are still waiting for help. It is worth noting, Madam Chair, that vegetables like the potatoes in New Brunswick that I previously mentioned are perishable products. Our farmers do not have the luxury of time. Again, will the Prime Minister and this government make agriculture a priority and provide them with the support they desperately need right now?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, obviously we believe in the importance of our regions and our rural communities, and that's why we've always made sure that agriculture was at the core of many of the decisions throughout this pandemic. That's why our colleague Minister Bibeau, who is the Minister of Agriculture, has been there providing the right liquidity and the right support through this pandemic. Of course we want to make sure that we continue to partner with provinces and territories, because we need their help in this context to make sure that all together we show strong economic support for our farmers, who are going through tough times.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "On May 1 the Liberals introduced a sweeping firearms ban through an order in council that outlawed 1,500 firearms. Recent reports show that since then, more and more firearms are quietly being added to the list of banned firearms, including many common hunting rifles and shotguns. Madam Chair, our hunters, outfitters, dealers and sport shooters are some of the most vetted members of our society. Why does the Prime Minister insist on making criminals out of law-abiding firearms owners instead of dealing with the criminals we already have?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, I am very proud of this government's record when it comes to ensuring that we take out of our communities those guns that have one objective only, and that is to kill other people. We will always stand by that record, and we will continue to take the necessary steps to keep our communities safe.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, the Liberals have said that to compensate firearms owners, they will implement a national buyback program. Instead of targeting law-abiding firearms owners and their legally purchased private property, wouldn't the estimated quarter of a billion dollars needed to buy back these firearms be better utilized right now in supporting our agricultural sector, the very people who grow our food and literally keep our land?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, of course we look forward to saying more about that, but of course we remain committed to taking those guns that have only one objective, and that is to kill people. The legislation we have introduced and the measures we have taken are designed to keep our communities safe, and of course we will do that. We will also continue to support farmers, introducing hundreds of millions of dollars in support because we know they are providing Canadians with affordable food.", "speaker": "Hon. Marco Mendicino" }, { "content": "Mr. Bragdon, you have time for a short question.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "Madam Chair, many sole proprietors have been hit extremely hard by this pandemic. My office has heard from many who have been in business for nearly 30 years and have submitted hundreds of HST returns, yet still cannot access the CEBA funding because they do not have a business chequing account, as a lot of small business owners use their personal chequing accounts to do their business. The Liberals offered aid to sole proprietors but attached unnecessary hurdles that prevent many of them from accessing the funds they desperately need to keep their businesses afloat. When will these unnecessary hurdles be removed so businesses can start to receive the relief they so desperately need?", "speaker": "Mr. Richard Bragdon" }, { "content": "We will have a very short answer from the honourable minister.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" }, { "content": "We believe in the importance of making sure we're supporting our businesses, including sole proprietors. That is why our colleague, Minister Ng, the minister for small business, has been working on this and will continue to make sure we take the appropriate steps to recognize that. Meanwhile, people can definitely come to the regional development agencies if they don't have access to funding through banks, and that's a good way to make sure there is a backstop.", "speaker": "Hon. Mlanie Joly" }, { "content": "Please note that, pursuant to the Standing Order made on April20 and May26, the House has been recalled. Therefore, the committee will adjourn, and the House will begin sitting at 2:30p.m. The bells will be rung to call members, and a parade will begin the sitting. The meeting is adjourned.", "speaker": "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends)" } ]

[ { "content": "So we can start ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Suppose I have to do my presentation . {vocalsound} Eh um {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah okay . It's Ada Longmund ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . So um we will have to um speak about m the project . Our project project is to create um a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and um user-friendly . Record . So the project method is the following . So if we're um the functional design , you have to do uh any individual work and uh also work with uh meetings talking with each other . Uh it will be the same for the conceptual design and also the same for the detailed design . Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The tool training is to try out the white board , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe someone ha we have to {gap} this whiteboard ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can draw your favourite animal", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and make a list of its favourite characteristics .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So right now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So yeah I think you can do it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So the selling price of the product will be twenty five Euros . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twenty five Euros ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's quite good price , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I it's it's reasonable , s quite {disfmarker} yeah . Twenty five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's reasonable , I think , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it will uh be a an international remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your um {disfmarker} with the remote control . Um just uh maybe be imaginative with {vocalsound} remote const con controls ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And {vocalsound} and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know {disfmarker} I suppose you know what you have to do . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . I I hope so {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Those things just refer to each of each of us , I think . AMI", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I_D_ ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's me .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and Marketing Expert , it's me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "AMI yeah project .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I will manage all all the group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} you will be the manager {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can manage all this , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have questions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um . Not really .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you all know what the parts of the work you have to do .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So which {disfmarker} you , the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No I'm user interf I'm user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I am the Industrial Design , yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I am the Industrial Designer so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So what's the difference between", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "user interface design d industrial design ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , you have to know . Ah , you have to know it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's difficult . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's your job , so I hope you you know what it is .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You know very soon . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so I make uh u user interface .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You you de you implement the core functions in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And i maybe you will transform it {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think the user the user interface design is {disfmarker} he will design how the user will you know {disfmarker} the relation between the user and you know the remote control so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Use it . Make make {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the uh industrial design , it is how the object will look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe I think uh uh i industrial design's uh , it's the function design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . So the materi", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I design the user f user interface , you design the function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe , it is the outside and the inside .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay right . But {disfmarker} I was thinking that he's a user {disfmarker} 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I don't know . {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well . You know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm the industrial designer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay . Not the other one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So and the marketing expert will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then thi this would {vocalsound} I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ok Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And when designing y the remote control just remember that uh it has to be a kind of international product . So you don't have to do something really specific ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "as everybody everybody will have to use it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's sor the same as keyboards . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so really the remote control to be international .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And not too expensive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . And uh simple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "As we want to maximise the benefit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you have to keep it under twelve Euros and f fifty , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It should be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the mm existing remote controls now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . It's clear .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe should go and draw an animal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it ? {vocalsound} Are we supposed to do right now ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , you try . Try first . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you think we have to do it now ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can draw something which is very simple . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You want me to draw something ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Product manager {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everybody {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , let's go ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I will try .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Kemy is really good at drawing . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Many {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think everybody should do it , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's not matter {vocalsound} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're going to draw ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh it's the same as mine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What's this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah . It's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a cat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a fat cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It is not a fat cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the fat cat , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Can you draw uh um rabbit ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , hat ha rat .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A rat ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's difficult .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes you have to draw a rat if you want a rat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . A mouse is not too difficult .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's your rat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mouse is okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just go ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you you the closest to the whiteboard .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "go {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} right , but in grow , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Jus", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "everybody has to grow {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay , I draw . The only thing I can draw is like this . Oh . Oh . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A duck .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You love the eyes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} What's this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What are you {disfmarker} I don {vocalsound} no idea , so {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that was the eyes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A clown .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Rabbit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's a rabbit .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pikachu . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a rabbit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . Bugs Bunny one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not so bad so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The only thing I can draw , because it's very simple . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . I go .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What ? Oh . So what else ? This was my favourite one ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So you don't have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A fish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . A fish .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's a that's a fish ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , let's try to draw something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You forgot the chips .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , doesn't look so fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Have to be really careful .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Fish and chips . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah {vocalsound} it's my turn .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it's your turn .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay , be careful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So . {gap} {gap} It's ok", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Of", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No problem , no problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , what can I draw some more ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh {gap} . {gap} ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} ? No . Mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A person ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . It's a really crazy dog {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Dog . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Transfer . It's a dog in a village . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So what are you sug going to do now ? {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's done ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just have to {disfmarker} present project ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we have break .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "discuss a little bit about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh my God .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , we have twenty five minutes for the meeting .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , if you have questions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Know what time is it ? No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You know your job ? you know your job ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We have an idea yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You know your job ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have an idea of my job {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} yeah so . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "So we can start ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Suppose I have to do my presentation . {vocalsound} Eh um {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah okay . It's Ada Longmund ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . So um we will have to um speak about m the project . Our project project is to create um a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and um user-friendly . Record . So the project method is the following . So if we're um the functional design , you have to do uh any individual work and uh also work with uh meetings talking with each other . Uh it will be the same for the conceptual design and also the same for the detailed design . Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The tool training is to try out the white board , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe someone ha we have to {gap} this whiteboard ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can draw your favourite animal", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and make a list of its favourite characteristics .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So right now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So yeah I think you can do it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So the selling price of the product will be twenty five Euros . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twenty five Euros ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's quite good price , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I it's it's reasonable , s quite {disfmarker} yeah . Twenty five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's reasonable , I think , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it will uh be a an international remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your um {disfmarker} with the remote control . Um just uh maybe be imaginative with {vocalsound} remote const con controls ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And {vocalsound} and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know {disfmarker} I suppose you know what you have to do . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . I I hope so {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Those things just refer to each of each of us , I think . AMI", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I_D_ ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's me .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and Marketing Expert , it's me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "AMI yeah project .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I will manage all all the group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} you will be the manager {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can manage all this , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have questions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um . Not really .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you all know what the parts of the work you have to do .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So which {disfmarker} you , the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No I'm user interf I'm user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I am the Industrial Design , yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I am the Industrial Designer so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So what's the difference between", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "user interface design d industrial design ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , you have to know . Ah , you have to know it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's difficult . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's your job , so I hope you you know what it is .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You know very soon . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so I make uh u user interface .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You you de you implement the core functions in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And i maybe you will transform it {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think the user the user interface design is {disfmarker} he will design how the user will you know {disfmarker} the relation between the user and you know the remote control so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Use it . Make make {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the uh industrial design , it is how the object will look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe I think uh uh i industrial design's uh , it's the function design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . So the materi", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I design the user f user interface , you design the function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe , it is the outside and the inside .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay right . But {disfmarker} I was thinking that he's a user {disfmarker} 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I don't know . {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well . You know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm the industrial designer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay . Not the other one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So and the marketing expert will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then thi this would {vocalsound} I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ok Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And when designing y the remote control just remember that uh it has to be a kind of international product . So you don't have to do something really specific ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "as everybody everybody will have to use it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's sor the same as keyboards . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so really the remote control to be international .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And not too expensive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . And uh simple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "As we want to maximise the benefit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you have to keep it under twelve Euros and f fifty , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It should be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the mm existing remote controls now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . It's clear .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe should go and draw an animal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it ? {vocalsound} Are we supposed to do right now ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , you try . Try first . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you think we have to do it now ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can draw something which is very simple . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You want me to draw something ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Product manager {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everybody {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , let's go ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I will try .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Kemy is really good at drawing . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Many {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think everybody should do it , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's not matter {vocalsound} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're going to draw ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh it's the same as mine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What's this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah . It's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a cat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a fat cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It is not a fat cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the fat cat , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Can you draw uh um rabbit ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , hat ha rat .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A rat ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's difficult .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes you have to draw a rat if you want a rat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . A mouse is not too difficult .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's your rat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mouse is okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just go ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you you the closest to the whiteboard .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "go {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} right , but in grow , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Jus", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "everybody has to grow {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay , I draw . The only thing I can draw is like this . Oh . Oh . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A duck .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You love the eyes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} What's this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What are you {disfmarker} I don {vocalsound} no idea , so {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that was the eyes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A clown .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Rabbit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's a rabbit .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pikachu . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a rabbit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . Bugs Bunny one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not so bad so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The only thing I can draw , because it's very simple . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . I go .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What ? Oh . So what else ? This was my favourite one ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So you don't have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A fish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . A fish .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's a that's a fish ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , let's try to draw something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You forgot the chips .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , doesn't look so fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Have to be really careful .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Fish and chips . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah {vocalsound} it's my turn .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it's your turn .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay , be careful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So . {gap} {gap} It's ok", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Of", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No problem , no problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , what can I draw some more ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh {gap} . {gap} ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} ? No . Mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A person ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . It's a really crazy dog {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Dog . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Transfer . It's a dog in a village . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So what are you sug going to do now ? {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's done ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just have to {disfmarker} present project ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we have break .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "discuss a little bit about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh my God .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , we have twenty five minutes for the meeting .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , if you have questions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Know what time is it ? No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You know your job ? you know your job ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We have an idea yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You know your job ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have an idea of my job {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} yeah so . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "So we can start ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Suppose I have to do my presentation . {vocalsound} Eh um {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah okay . It's Ada Longmund ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . So um we will have to um speak about m the project . Our project project is to create um a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and um user-friendly . Record . So the project method is the following . So if we're um the functional design , you have to do uh any individual work and uh also work with uh meetings talking with each other . Uh it will be the same for the conceptual design and also the same for the detailed design . Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The tool training is to try out the white board , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe someone ha we have to {gap} this whiteboard ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can draw your favourite animal", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and make a list of its favourite characteristics .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So right now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So yeah I think you can do it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So the selling price of the product will be twenty five Euros . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twenty five Euros ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's quite good price , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I it's it's reasonable , s quite {disfmarker} yeah . Twenty five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's reasonable , I think , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it will uh be a an international remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your um {disfmarker} with the remote control . Um just uh maybe be imaginative with {vocalsound} remote const con controls ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And {vocalsound} and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know {disfmarker} I suppose you know what you have to do . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . I I hope so {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Those things just refer to each of each of us , I think . AMI", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I_D_ ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's me .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and Marketing Expert , it's me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "AMI yeah project .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I will manage all all the group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} you will be the manager {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can manage all this , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have questions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um . Not really .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you all know what the parts of the work you have to do .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So which {disfmarker} you , the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No I'm user interf I'm user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I am the Industrial Design , yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I am the Industrial Designer so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So what's the difference between", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "user interface design d industrial design ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , you have to know . Ah , you have to know it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's difficult . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's your job , so I hope you you know what it is .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You know very soon . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so I make uh u user interface .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You you de you implement the core functions in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And i maybe you will transform it {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think the user the user interface design is {disfmarker} he will design how the user will you know {disfmarker} the relation between the user and you know the remote control so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Use it . Make make {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the uh industrial design , it is how the object will look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe I think uh uh i industrial design's uh , it's the function design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . So the materi", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I design the user f user interface , you design the function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe , it is the outside and the inside .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay right . But {disfmarker} I was thinking that he's a user {disfmarker} 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I don't know . {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well . You know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm the industrial designer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay . Not the other one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So and the marketing expert will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then thi this would {vocalsound} I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ok Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And when designing y the remote control just remember that uh it has to be a kind of international product . So you don't have to do something really specific ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "as everybody everybody will have to use it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's sor the same as keyboards . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so really the remote control to be international .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And not too expensive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . And uh simple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "As we want to maximise the benefit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you have to keep it under twelve Euros and f fifty , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It should be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the mm existing remote controls now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . It's clear .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe should go and draw an animal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it ? {vocalsound} Are we supposed to do right now ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , you try . Try first . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you think we have to do it now ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can draw something which is very simple . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You want me to draw something ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Product manager {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everybody {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , let's go ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I will try .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Kemy is really good at drawing . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Many {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think everybody should do it , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's not matter {vocalsound} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're going to draw ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh it's the same as mine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What's this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah . It's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a cat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a fat cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It is not a fat cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the fat cat , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Can you draw uh um rabbit ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , hat ha rat .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A rat ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's difficult .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes you have to draw a rat if you want a rat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . A mouse is not too difficult .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's your rat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mouse is okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just go ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you you the closest to the whiteboard .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "go {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} right , but in grow , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Jus", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "everybody has to grow {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay , I draw . The only thing I can draw is like this . Oh . Oh . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A duck .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You love the eyes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} What's this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What are you {disfmarker} I don {vocalsound} no idea , so {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that was the eyes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A clown .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Rabbit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's a rabbit .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pikachu . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a rabbit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . Bugs Bunny one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not so bad so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The only thing I can draw , because it's very simple . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . I go .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What ? Oh . So what else ? This was my favourite one ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So you don't have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A fish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . A fish .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's a that's a fish ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , let's try to draw something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You forgot the chips .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , doesn't look so fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Have to be really careful .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Fish and chips . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah {vocalsound} it's my turn .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it's your turn .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay , be careful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So . {gap} {gap} It's ok", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Of", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No problem , no problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , what can I draw some more ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh {gap} . {gap} ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} ? No . Mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A person ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . It's a really crazy dog {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Dog . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Transfer . It's a dog in a village . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So what are you sug going to do now ? {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's done ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just have to {disfmarker} present project ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we have break .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "discuss a little bit about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh my God .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , we have twenty five minutes for the meeting .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , if you have questions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Know what time is it ? No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You know your job ? you know your job ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We have an idea yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You know your job ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have an idea of my job {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} yeah so . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "So we can start ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Suppose I have to do my presentation . {vocalsound} Eh um {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah okay . It's Ada Longmund ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . So um we will have to um speak about m the project . Our project project is to create um a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and um user-friendly . Record . So the project method is the following . So if we're um the functional design , you have to do uh any individual work and uh also work with uh meetings talking with each other . Uh it will be the same for the conceptual design and also the same for the detailed design . Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The tool training is to try out the white board , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe someone ha we have to {gap} this whiteboard ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can draw your favourite animal", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and make a list of its favourite characteristics .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So right now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So yeah I think you can do it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So the selling price of the product will be twenty five Euros . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twenty five Euros ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's quite good price , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I it's it's reasonable , s quite {disfmarker} yeah . Twenty five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's reasonable , I think , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it will uh be a an international remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your um {disfmarker} with the remote control . Um just uh maybe be imaginative with {vocalsound} remote const con controls ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And {vocalsound} and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know {disfmarker} I suppose you know what you have to do . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . I I hope so {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Those things just refer to each of each of us , I think . AMI", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I_D_ ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's me .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and Marketing Expert , it's me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "AMI yeah project .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I will manage all all the group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} you will be the manager {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can manage all this , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have questions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um . Not really .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you all know what the parts of the work you have to do .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So which {disfmarker} you , the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No I'm user interf I'm user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I am the Industrial Design , yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I am the Industrial Designer so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So what's the difference between", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "user interface design d industrial design ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , you have to know . Ah , you have to know it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's difficult . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's your job , so I hope you you know what it is .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You know very soon . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so I make uh u user interface .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You you de you implement the core functions in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And i maybe you will transform it {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think the user the user interface design is {disfmarker} he will design how the user will you know {disfmarker} the relation between the user and you know the remote control so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Use it . Make make {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the uh industrial design , it is how the object will look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe I think uh uh i industrial design's uh , it's the function design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . So the materi", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I design the user f user interface , you design the function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe , it is the outside and the inside .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay right . But {disfmarker} I was thinking that he's a user {disfmarker} 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I don't know . {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well . You know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm the industrial designer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay . Not the other one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So and the marketing expert will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then thi this would {vocalsound} I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ok Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And when designing y the remote control just remember that uh it has to be a kind of international product . So you don't have to do something really specific ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "as everybody everybody will have to use it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's sor the same as keyboards . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so really the remote control to be international .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And not too expensive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . And uh simple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "As we want to maximise the benefit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you have to keep it under twelve Euros and f fifty , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It should be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the mm existing remote controls now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . It's clear .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe should go and draw an animal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it ? {vocalsound} Are we supposed to do right now ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , you try . Try first . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you think we have to do it now ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can draw something which is very simple . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You want me to draw something ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Product manager {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everybody {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , let's go ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I will try .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Kemy is really good at drawing . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Many {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think everybody should do it , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's not matter {vocalsound} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're going to draw ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh it's the same as mine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What's this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah . It's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a cat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a fat cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It is not a fat cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the fat cat , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Can you draw uh um rabbit ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , hat ha rat .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A rat ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's difficult .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes you have to draw a rat if you want a rat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . A mouse is not too difficult .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's your rat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mouse is okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just go ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you you the closest to the whiteboard .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "go {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} right , but in grow , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Jus", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "everybody has to grow {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay , I draw . The only thing I can draw is like this . Oh . Oh . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A duck .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You love the eyes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} What's this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What are you {disfmarker} I don {vocalsound} no idea , so {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that was the eyes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A clown .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Rabbit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's a rabbit .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pikachu . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a rabbit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . Bugs Bunny one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not so bad so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The only thing I can draw , because it's very simple . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . I go .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What ? Oh . So what else ? This was my favourite one ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So you don't have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A fish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . A fish .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's a that's a fish ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , let's try to draw something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You forgot the chips .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , doesn't look so fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Have to be really careful .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Fish and chips . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah {vocalsound} it's my turn .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it's your turn .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay , be careful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So . {gap} {gap} It's ok", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Of", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No problem , no problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , what can I draw some more ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh {gap} . {gap} ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} ? No . Mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A person ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . It's a really crazy dog {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Dog . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Transfer . It's a dog in a village . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So what are you sug going to do now ? {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's done ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just have to {disfmarker} present project ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we have break .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "discuss a little bit about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh my God .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , we have twenty five minutes for the meeting .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , if you have questions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Know what time is it ? No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You know your job ? you know your job ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We have an idea yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You know your job ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have an idea of my job {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} yeah so . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "So we can start ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Suppose I have to do my presentation . {vocalsound} Eh um {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah okay . It's Ada Longmund ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . So um we will have to um speak about m the project . Our project project is to create um a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and um user-friendly . Record . So the project method is the following . So if we're um the functional design , you have to do uh any individual work and uh also work with uh meetings talking with each other . Uh it will be the same for the conceptual design and also the same for the detailed design . Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The tool training is to try out the white board , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe someone ha we have to {gap} this whiteboard ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can draw your favourite animal", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and make a list of its favourite characteristics .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So right now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So yeah I think you can do it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So the selling price of the product will be twenty five Euros . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twenty five Euros ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's quite good price , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I it's it's reasonable , s quite {disfmarker} yeah . Twenty five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's reasonable , I think , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it will uh be a an international remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your um {disfmarker} with the remote control . Um just uh maybe be imaginative with {vocalsound} remote const con controls ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And {vocalsound} and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know {disfmarker} I suppose you know what you have to do . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . I I hope so {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Those things just refer to each of each of us , I think . AMI", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I_D_ ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's me .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and Marketing Expert , it's me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "AMI yeah project .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I will manage all all the group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} you will be the manager {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can manage all this , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have questions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um . Not really .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you all know what the parts of the work you have to do .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So which {disfmarker} you , the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No I'm user interf I'm user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I am the Industrial Design , yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I am the Industrial Designer so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So what's the difference between", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "user interface design d industrial design ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , you have to know . Ah , you have to know it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's difficult . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's your job , so I hope you you know what it is .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You know very soon . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so I make uh u user interface .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You you de you implement the core functions in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And i maybe you will transform it {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think the user the user interface design is {disfmarker} he will design how the user will you know {disfmarker} the relation between the user and you know the remote control so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Use it . Make make {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the uh industrial design , it is how the object will look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe I think uh uh i industrial design's uh , it's the function design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . So the materi", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I design the user f user interface , you design the function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe , it is the outside and the inside .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay right . But {disfmarker} I was thinking that he's a user {disfmarker} 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I don't know . {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well . You know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm the industrial designer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay . Not the other one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So and the marketing expert will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then thi this would {vocalsound} I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ok Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And when designing y the remote control just remember that uh it has to be a kind of international product . So you don't have to do something really specific ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "as everybody everybody will have to use it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's sor the same as keyboards . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so really the remote control to be international .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And not too expensive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . And uh simple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "As we want to maximise the benefit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you have to keep it under twelve Euros and f fifty , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It should be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the mm existing remote controls now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . It's clear .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe should go and draw an animal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it ? {vocalsound} Are we supposed to do right now ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , you try . Try first . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you think we have to do it now ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can draw something which is very simple . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You want me to draw something ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Product manager {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everybody {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , let's go ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I will try .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Kemy is really good at drawing . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Many {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think everybody should do it , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's not matter {vocalsound} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're going to draw ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh it's the same as mine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What's this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah . It's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a cat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a fat cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It is not a fat cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the fat cat , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Can you draw uh um rabbit ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , hat ha rat .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A rat ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's difficult .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes you have to draw a rat if you want a rat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . A mouse is not too difficult .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's your rat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mouse is okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just go ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you you the closest to the whiteboard .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "go {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} right , but in grow , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Jus", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "everybody has to grow {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay , I draw . The only thing I can draw is like this . Oh . Oh . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A duck .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You love the eyes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} What's this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What are you {disfmarker} I don {vocalsound} no idea , so {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that was the eyes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A clown .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Rabbit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's a rabbit .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pikachu . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a rabbit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . Bugs Bunny one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not so bad so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The only thing I can draw , because it's very simple . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . I go .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What ? Oh . So what else ? This was my favourite one ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So you don't have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A fish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . A fish .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's a that's a fish ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , let's try to draw something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You forgot the chips .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , doesn't look so fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Have to be really careful .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Fish and chips . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah {vocalsound} it's my turn .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it's your turn .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay , be careful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So . {gap} {gap} It's ok", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Of", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No problem , no problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , what can I draw some more ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh {gap} . {gap} ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} ? No . Mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A person ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . It's a really crazy dog {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Dog . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Transfer . It's a dog in a village . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So what are you sug going to do now ? {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's done ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just have to {disfmarker} present project ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we have break .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "discuss a little bit about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh my God .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , we have twenty five minutes for the meeting .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , if you have questions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Know what time is it ? No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You know your job ? you know your job ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We have an idea yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You know your job ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have an idea of my job {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} yeah so . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "So we can start ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Suppose I have to do my presentation . {vocalsound} Eh um {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah okay . It's Ada Longmund ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . So um we will have to um speak about m the project . Our project project is to create um a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and um user-friendly . Record . So the project method is the following . So if we're um the functional design , you have to do uh any individual work and uh also work with uh meetings talking with each other . Uh it will be the same for the conceptual design and also the same for the detailed design . Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The tool training is to try out the white board , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe someone ha we have to {gap} this whiteboard ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can draw your favourite animal", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and make a list of its favourite characteristics .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So right now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So yeah I think you can do it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So the selling price of the product will be twenty five Euros . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twenty five Euros ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's quite good price , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I it's it's reasonable , s quite {disfmarker} yeah . Twenty five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's reasonable , I think , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it will uh be a an international remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your um {disfmarker} with the remote control . Um just uh maybe be imaginative with {vocalsound} remote const con controls ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And {vocalsound} and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know {disfmarker} I suppose you know what you have to do . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . I I hope so {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Those things just refer to each of each of us , I think . AMI", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I_D_ ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's me .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and Marketing Expert , it's me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "AMI yeah project .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I will manage all all the group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} you will be the manager {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can manage all this , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have questions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um . Not really .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you all know what the parts of the work you have to do .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So which {disfmarker} you , the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No I'm user interf I'm user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I am the Industrial Design , yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I am the Industrial Designer so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So what's the difference between", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "user interface design d industrial design ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , you have to know . Ah , you have to know it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's difficult . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's your job , so I hope you you know what it is .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You know very soon . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so I make uh u user interface .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You you de you implement the core functions in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And i maybe you will transform it {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think the user the user interface design is {disfmarker} he will design how the user will you know {disfmarker} the relation between the user and you know the remote control so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Use it . Make make {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the uh industrial design , it is how the object will look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe I think uh uh i industrial design's uh , it's the function design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . So the materi", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I design the user f user interface , you design the function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe , it is the outside and the inside .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay right . But {disfmarker} I was thinking that he's a user {disfmarker} 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I don't know . {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well . You know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm the industrial designer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay . Not the other one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So and the marketing expert will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then thi this would {vocalsound} I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ok Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And when designing y the remote control just remember that uh it has to be a kind of international product . So you don't have to do something really specific ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "as everybody everybody will have to use it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's sor the same as keyboards . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so really the remote control to be international .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And not too expensive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . And uh simple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "As we want to maximise the benefit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you have to keep it under twelve Euros and f fifty , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It should be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the mm existing remote controls now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . It's clear .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe should go and draw an animal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it ? {vocalsound} Are we supposed to do right now ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , you try . Try first . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you think we have to do it now ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can draw something which is very simple . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You want me to draw something ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Product manager {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everybody {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , let's go ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I will try .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Kemy is really good at drawing . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Many {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think everybody should do it , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's not matter {vocalsound} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're going to draw ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh it's the same as mine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What's this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah . It's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a cat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a fat cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It is not a fat cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the fat cat , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Can you draw uh um rabbit ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , hat ha rat .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A rat ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's difficult .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes you have to draw a rat if you want a rat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . A mouse is not too difficult .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's your rat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mouse is okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just go ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you you the closest to the whiteboard .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "go {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} right , but in grow , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Jus", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "everybody has to grow {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay , I draw . The only thing I can draw is like this . Oh . Oh . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A duck .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You love the eyes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} What's this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What are you {disfmarker} I don {vocalsound} no idea , so {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that was the eyes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A clown .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Rabbit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's a rabbit .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pikachu . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a rabbit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . Bugs Bunny one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not so bad so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The only thing I can draw , because it's very simple . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . I go .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What ? Oh . So what else ? This was my favourite one ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So you don't have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A fish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . A fish .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's a that's a fish ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , let's try to draw something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You forgot the chips .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , doesn't look so fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Have to be really careful .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Fish and chips . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah {vocalsound} it's my turn .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it's your turn .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay , be careful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So . {gap} {gap} It's ok", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Of", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No problem , no problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , what can I draw some more ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh {gap} . {gap} ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} ? No . Mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A person ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . It's a really crazy dog {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Dog . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Transfer . It's a dog in a village . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So what are you sug going to do now ? {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's done ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just have to {disfmarker} present project ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we have break .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "discuss a little bit about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh my God .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , we have twenty five minutes for the meeting .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , if you have questions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Know what time is it ? No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You know your job ? you know your job ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We have an idea yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You know your job ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have an idea of my job {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} yeah so . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "So we can start ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Suppose I have to do my presentation . {vocalsound} Eh um {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah okay . It's Ada Longmund ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So , I'll present myself , I'm Ada Longmund , and as you may know it , I'm the pr project manager . So um we will have to um speak about m the project . Our project project is to create um a new remote control and as you may know there's lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control , so the remote control has to be original , trendy and um user-friendly . Record . So the project method is the following . So if we're um the functional design , you have to do uh any individual work and uh also work with uh meetings talking with each other . Uh it will be the same for the conceptual design and also the same for the detailed design . Uh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The tool training is to try out the white board , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Maybe someone ha we have to {gap} this whiteboard ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe you can draw your favourite animal", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and make a list of its favourite characteristics .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So right now ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't know if we have to do it now , maybe later later .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So yeah I think you can do it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So the selling price of the product will be twenty five Euros . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Twenty five Euros ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think it's quite good price , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I it's it's reasonable , s quite {disfmarker} yeah . Twenty five .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's reasonable , I think , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it will uh be a an international remote control ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "as we want to sell it in the entire world , and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes . So , as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your um {disfmarker} with the remote control . Um just uh maybe be imaginative with {vocalsound} remote const con controls ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "try to create something new and people would like to to buy . And {vocalsound} and the next meeting will start in thirty minutes , so you'll ha all have your spethisfispis specif specific role and you know {disfmarker} I suppose you know what you have to do . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah . I I hope so {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And uh you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Those things just refer to each of each of us , I think . AMI", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I_D_ ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I_D_ is for the Industrial Design , yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And U_I_D_ , it's for the User Interface Designer ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's me .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and Marketing Expert , it's me .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "AMI yeah project .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I will manage all all the group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} you will be the manager {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can manage all this , yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So you have questions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um . Not really .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you all know what the parts of the work you have to do .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So which {disfmarker} you , the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No I'm user interf I'm user interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I am the Industrial Design , yeah", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And you ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I am the Industrial Designer so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . So what's the difference between", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "user interface design d industrial design ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean , you have to know . Ah , you have to know it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's difficult . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's your job , so I hope you you know what it is .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You know very soon . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think so .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , so I make uh u user interface .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You you de you implement the core functions in the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And i maybe you will transform it {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I I think the user the user interface design is {disfmarker} he will design how the user will you know {disfmarker} the relation between the user and you know the remote control so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Use it . Make make {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the uh industrial design , it is how the object will look like .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Maybe I think uh uh i industrial design's uh , it's the function design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . So the materi", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I design the user f user interface , you design the function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe , it is the outside and the inside .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay right . But {disfmarker} I was thinking that he's a user {disfmarker} 'cause the user interface to design for example where the but button will be , you know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But I don't know . {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well . You know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm the industrial designer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , okay , okay . Not the other one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So and the marketing expert will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , I'm just go I'm trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then thi this would {vocalsound} I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ok Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And when designing y the remote control just remember that uh it has to be a kind of international product . So you don't have to do something really specific ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "as everybody everybody will have to use it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "it's sor the same as keyboards . You know , you have Qwerty , Azerty , French and U_K_ keyboard ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so really the remote control to be international .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And not too expensive .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . And uh simple .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "As we want to maximise the benefit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And easy to use .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And you have to keep it under twelve Euros and f fifty , so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , you have to keep in mind that the product cost won't be maxim more than twelve dot fifty Euros .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Ah , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It should be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's the problem .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And to be sure that really people will be interested in buying a new remote control with maybe new functionalities that don't exist in the mm existing remote controls now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , is it okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm . It's clear .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} There was a step about drawing something in the in the board , I don't know .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , maybe should go and draw an animal .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Is it ? {vocalsound} Are we supposed to do right now ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah , you try . Try first . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh right it's it's from the left to the ri {vocalsound} It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "you think we have to do it now ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d I was thinking but I n I'm not sure now . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You can draw something which is very simple . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You want me to draw something ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Product manager {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Everybody {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay , let's go ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe we should bring Kemy here .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I will try .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Kemy is really good at drawing . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Many {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think everybody should do it , so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's not matter {vocalsound} So .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're going to draw ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh it's the same as mine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What's this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} yeah . It's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a cat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's a fat cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It is not a fat cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's the fat cat , okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Can you draw uh um rabbit ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , hat ha rat .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A rat ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's difficult .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yes you have to draw a rat if you want a rat .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . A mouse is not too difficult .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's your rat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mouse is okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , it's okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Just go ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you you the closest to the whiteboard .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "go {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} right , but in grow , it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Jus", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "everybody has to grow {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay , I draw . The only thing I can draw is like this . Oh . Oh . Oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A duck .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} You love the eyes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound} What's this ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What are you {disfmarker} I don {vocalsound} no idea , so {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , that was the eyes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A clown .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Rabbit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's a rabbit .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Pikachu . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's a rabbit .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . Bugs Bunny one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's not so bad so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The only thing I can draw , because it's very simple . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . I go .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What ? Oh . So what else ? This was my favourite one ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So you don't have a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Thank you . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} A fish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right . A fish .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} That's a that's a fish ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , let's try to draw something .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You forgot the chips .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , doesn't look so fine .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Have to be really careful .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Fish and chips . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Ah {vocalsound} it's my turn .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "it's your turn .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh . Okay , be careful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So . {gap} {gap} It's ok", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Of", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No problem , no problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So , what can I draw some more ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh {gap} . {gap} ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} ? No . Mm {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's a se it's my priority this one . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A person ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} No . It's a really crazy dog {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Oh yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Dog . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Transfer . It's a dog in a village . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So what are you sug going to do now ? {gap}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think it's done .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's done ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Just have to {disfmarker} present project ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we have break .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "discuss a little bit about it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh my God .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , we have twenty five minutes for the meeting .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So , if you have questions .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh . Hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Know what time is it ? No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It's okay ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You know your job ? you know your job ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} We have an idea yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You know your job ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I have an idea of my job {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} yeah so . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Marketing" } ]

[ { "content": "Nice .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "to {disfmarker} to handle .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is that good ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , I 've have never handled them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Goats eat cans , to my understanding . Tin cans .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Did we need to do these things ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Could I hit {disfmarker} hit F - seven to do that ? on the {disfmarker} Robert ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , the remote will do it OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Cuz I 'm already up there ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "in control here .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You are in control . Already ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wow , we 're all so high tech here . Yet another p PowerPoint presentation .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} Well it makes it easier {pause} to do", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Certainly does .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So , {pause} we were {disfmarker} Ah !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Johno , where are you ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So , Let 's see . Which one of these buttons will do this for me ? Aha ! OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Should you go back to the first one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Do I wanna go back to the first one ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , {pause} just to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Introduce .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , um {vocalsound} Well , \" the search for the middle layer \" . It 's basically uh talks about uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It just refers to the fact that uh {pause} one of main things we had to do was to {pause} decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I can read ! I 'm kidding .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know , because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to {pause} click on the little {pause} light bulb .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Although I 've {disfmarker} I 've never {disfmarker} I don't know what the light bulb is for . I didn't i install that into my {pause} PowerPoint presentation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Do you wanna try ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ach u", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'd prefer not to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Continue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's a needless good idea . Is that the idea ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh ! OK . Of course . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and then {pause} if I do that it 'll mess everything up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I was wondering .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Is that OK ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Can you maximize the window ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Proceed .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You want me to {disfmarker} Wait , what do you want me to do ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't {disfmarker} doesn't appear ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , It 's OK . It 's {disfmarker} It 'll work .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , fine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Here , let 's see if I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Very nice .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Is that better ? OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I 'll also get rid of this \" Click to add notes \" . OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Perfect .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So then the features we decided {disfmarker} or we decided we were {disfmarker} talked about , right ? Uh the {disfmarker} the prosody , the discourse , {pause} verb choice . You know . We had a list of things like \" to go \" and \" to visit \" and what not . The \" landmark - iness \" of uh {disfmarker} I knew you 'd like that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Nice coinage .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Thank you . uh , of a {disfmarker} of a building . Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line {pause} for space . \" Nice walls \" {vocalsound} which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna {pause} get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it . And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls . The context , which in this case we 've limited to {pause} \" business person \" , \" tourist \" , or {pause} \" unknown \" , the time of day , and \" open to suggestions \" , isn't actually a feature . It 's {pause} \" We are open to suggestions . \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that {vocalsound} uh , in this particular domain {disfmarker} you said {disfmarker} be {disfmarker} i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the {disfmarker} that landmark - iness cor is correlated with", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . We have a separate", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "They 're separate things .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "feature .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "their being nice w", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I either could put \" nice walls \" on its own line or \" open to suggestions \" off the slide .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like you could have a p", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} By \" nice \" you mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} Like you could have a post office with uh {disfmarker} you know , nice murals or something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or one time I was at this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So \" nice walls \" is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh {disfmarker} significant", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But see the thing is , if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Architecturally appealing from the outside .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "or something like that . OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from {disfmarker} Like you m might be able to \" Vista \" it ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? And be able to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Appreciate it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I don't remember w", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It was a long time ago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "There 's a lot of those .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But if you looked at it real close , you could see the {disfmarker} the in intricacy of the {disfmarker} of the walls .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So that count as {disfmarker} counts as a nice wall .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} OK . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Something you want to inspect at close range {pause} because it 's interesting .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Robert ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well there {disfmarker} there is a term {pause} that 's often used . That 's \" saliency \" , or the \" salience \" of an object . And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as \" landmark - iness \" . But it 's really not . I mean an object can be very salient", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but not a landmark at all .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Not a landmark at all . There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . but you can imagine maybe wanting the oth both kinds of things there for different um , goals .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be {disfmarker} Wouldn't {disfmarker} couldn't they also be {disfmarker} They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like {pause} non - tourist - y landmarks and", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or it can be als", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "direct navigational {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "They 're not mutually exclusive ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . Definitely .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying , {pause} because {disfmarker} uh our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , a big flat structure .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And uh , so we {disfmarker} Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that . If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped . I don't know belief - nets very well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well usually , I mean , you know , N {disfmarker} If you have N features , then it 's two to the N {disfmarker} {pause} or exponential in N .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And they wouldn't look pretty . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh . So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was {vocalsound} we have the features that we 've drawn {pause} from the communication of some {disfmarker} Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like \" I 'm {disfmarker} \" the {disfmarker} the abstract idea being \" I am a tourist I want to go {pause} to this place . \" Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and {pause} what they 've said previously and whatnot . And then we have {pause} the means {vocalsound} that they should use . Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist {pause} or {pause} whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines . Or {disfmarker} Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the {disfmarker} from the data , the hidden variables . Yes , good . So then the hidden variables {disfmarker} hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} or th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Want to do Vista ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ? Because {pause} if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a {disfmarker} like a {pause} navigational point to go to another place .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed . Those are all {disfmarker} And then \" Let 's look at the belief - net \" {comment} OK . So that means that I should switch to the {pause} other program . Um right now it 's still kind of {pause} in a toy {pause} version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of {disfmarker} {pause} or {disfmarker} Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No one knows it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So this right {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker} Let 's see . What happens if I maximize this ? There we go . But uh {disfmarker} So . The mode {pause} basically has three different {pause} outputs . The probability {disfmarker} whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter . Um {disfmarker} The \" context \" , we simplified . Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown . \" Verb used \" is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's {disfmarker} it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a {pause} Vista verb .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that one needs a lot of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And are those mutually exclusive sets ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Not at all . That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that needs a lot of work .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {vocalsound} {pause} that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Got it . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so we decided that for the purposes of this {pause} it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Simple .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Stab at it . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Um {disfmarker} Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} that are not coming to my mind right now .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the {disfmarker} sort of , the things that are not directly extracted . Actually , the five things . The \" closed \" is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well i it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "From the {pause} utterance ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's so it sort of is", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Actually , no , wait .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} because have the {disfmarker} the time of day", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It is . OK , \" closed \" sort of is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and the close it just had the {disfmarker} er and what time it closed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker} you know probabilistically depends on the other things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Inferred from the other ones ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} {pause} the actual parse is somewhere up around in here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . So we haven't uh , managed {disfmarker} Like we don't have nodes for \" discourse \" and \" parse \" , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So some of the {disfmarker} the top row of things {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker} what 's \" Disc admission fee \" ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "whether they discuss the admission fees . So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like {vocalsound} \" Can I get to this place ? \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "\" What is the admission fee ? \" . So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "There were {disfmarker} there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but {pause} you know , {pause} we didn't have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That was like our example .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That was the {pause} initial one that we found .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So there are certain cues that are very strong {pause} either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "From the discourse that {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "for one of those . And then in that second row {pause} or whatever that row of Time of Day through that {disfmarker} So all of those {disfmarker} Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of {vocalsound} either world knowledge or situational {pause} things .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One , uh {disfmarker} Uh . {vocalsound} Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Unmark @ @ Time of Day \"", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I m I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . They 're {disfmarker} they 're are a couple of more things .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One thing {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean Uh . I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we {disfmarker} we all uh , agree on what {disfmarker} what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe {vocalsound} what changes we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , th OK . so one thing I {disfmarker} I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh {disfmarker} the \" admission fee \" thing set up . So one {pause} thing that we were thinking was {vocalsound} by doing the layers like this , Uh {disfmarker} we kept um {disfmarker} things from directly affecting the mode {pause} beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the \" admission fee \" going directly to the mode pointing at \" Enter \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? Versus pointing to just at \" tourist \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted {pause} to point at the middle and then {pause} down .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Why is the landmark {disfmarker} OK . The landmark is facing to the tourists . That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Navigational landmarks ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Navigational cue .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "navigational landmarks", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so Mm - hmm . Then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would be {pause} whatever building they referred to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Prosody .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . So let 's see . The variables .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Disc - \" admission fee \" is a binary thing , \" time of day \" is like morning , afternoon , night . Is that the deal ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's how we have it currently set up ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but it could be , {pause} you know , based upon hour", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Whatever granularity .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or {pause} dis we could discrete it {disfmarker} des descret - ize it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but um , we are just using the particular {vocalsound} part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So that 's given in their input .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Right ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so it 's not really all of context . Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply {vocalsound} for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . that 's very nice , huh ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or also unknown ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or un {pause} unknown ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Unknown , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Which is th Which one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but OK . so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , \" are you {disfmarker} \" I mean the {disfmarker} ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , it does .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So then you just have some probabilities over {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Everything is probablistic , and {disfmarker} There 's always {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . {disfmarker} over which which of those it is .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , right . So then landmark is {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . \" Verb used \" is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Rather , let me rephrase that . It {disfmarker} it can take values {vocalsound} in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um \" nice walls \" is binary , \" closed \" is binary \" final destination \" , again {disfmarker} Yeah , all those are binary I guess . And \" mode \" is one of three things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the middle layer is also binary ? No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh . It {disfmarker} Yeah . But all those things without question marks are also binary . Right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Which things ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Nice walls ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Wi", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh . \" Nice walls \" is uh {disfmarker} something that we extract from our world knowledge .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , a Oh yeah . Sorry . It is binary .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's true . Yeah . OK , I see your point .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I gotcha .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , similarly \" closed \" , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , we To do that we would add another uh {disfmarker} value for that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And that would require s updating the probability distribution for \" mode \" as well .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Because it would now have to like uh {disfmarker} take that possibility into account .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Take a conti", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would {disfmarker} that would help you {disfmarker} Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that {disfmarker} that would {vocalsound} {pause} determine {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Other syntactic information you mean ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of the landmark is {disfmarker} is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Usually . I {disfmarker} I don't know if that 's always the case I {disfmarker} I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have . So . Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "that 's always warping on something {disfmarker} some entity ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and um {disfmarker} Uh maybe at this stage we will {disfmarker} we do want to {disfmarker} uh sort of get {disfmarker} uh modifiers in there", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I want to get to the church quickly ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That would be a cue .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "what 's the fastest way", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , correct .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Um . OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Excellent . Do we have anything else to say about this ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We can do a little demo .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh the Yeah , we could . But the demo doesn't work very well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} We can do a demo in the sense that we can um , {vocalsound} just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Observe nodes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Go ahead .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK . Dat - dat - dah . What should I observe ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Just se set a few of them . You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time . Just like uh , {vocalsound} maybe the fact that they use a certain verb {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Actually forget the verb .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "just uh {disfmarker} I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the place has nice walls", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and it 's night .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "it 's starting to grow on me", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And the time of day is night ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , no wait . That {disfmarker} that doesn't uh {disfmarker} it 's not really consistent . They don't discuss the admission fee . Make that false .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And it 's night .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , they {disfmarker} OK . Oh whoops . I forgot to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That didn't work .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ach !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd like to do that again .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . That seems kind of redundant but .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That all you want ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So let 's see . I want {pause} to query ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" Go \" and , right , \" query \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ? the mode . OK , and then on here {disfmarker} So let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So that {pause} is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So slightly {pause} biased {pause} toward \" Tango \" ing", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "If it 's night time , {pause} they have not discussed admission fee , and the n walls are nice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So , yeah . I guess that {pause} sort of makes sense . The reason I say the {pause} demo doesn't work very well is yesterday we uh {disfmarker} {pause} observed everything in favor of {pause} taking a tour , and it came up as \" Tango \" , right ? Over and over again . We couldn't {disfmarker} we couldn't figure out how to turn it off of \" Tango \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It loves the Tango .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Huh ! Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , that 's obviously just to do with our probabilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like , {pause} we totally hand - tuned the probabilities ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right . We were like {vocalsound} \" hmm , well if the person does this and this and this , let 's say forty percent for this ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "fifty per \" Like , you know . So obviously that 's gonna happen .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Maybe the bias toward \" Tango \" ing was yours , then ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "that 's {disfmarker} that 's at {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} So we have to like fit the probabilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Spent my youth practicing the tango de la muerte .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , the real case ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "However you know , it {disfmarker} The purpose was not really , at this stage , to come up with meaningful probabilities but to get thinking about that hidden middle layer . And so th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We would actually {disfmarker} I guess once we look at the data more we 'll get more hidden {pause} nodes ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I 'd like to see more . Not because it would {pause} expedite the probabilities , cuz it wouldn't . It would actually slow that down tremendously .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . Well , yeah , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Not that much though . Only a little early .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I think we should have uh {disfmarker} exponentially more {pause} middle nodes than features we 've extracted . I 'm ju I 'm just jo", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . Are \" doing business \" versus \" tourist \" {disfmarker} They refer to your current task . Like {disfmarker} like current thing you want to do at this moment .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker} that 's an interesting point . Whether you 're {disfmarker} It 's whether {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And are th", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think it 's more like \" Are you are tourist ? are you in Ham - like Heidelberg for a {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , so , I thought that was directly given by the context {pause} switch .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's a different thing . What if the context , which is not set , but still they say things like , \" I want to go {pause} uh , see the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the castle and uh , et cetera . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well the I kind of {pause} thought of \" doing business \" as more of running an errand type thing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Business on the other hand is , uh , definitely what you 're doing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So if you run out of cash as a tourist , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you need to go to the AT", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So {pause} i wi th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , I see , you may have a task . wh you have to go get money and so you are doing business at that stage .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" How do I get to the bank ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I see . Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And that 'll affect whether you want to enter or you if you {disfmarker} kinda thing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So the \" tourists \" node {pause} should be {pause} um , very consistent with the context node . Right ? If you say that 's more their {disfmarker} in general what their background is .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think this context node is a bit of a {disfmarker} I don't know , like in d Uh {disfmarker} Do we {pause} wanna have {disfmarker} Like it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are you assuming that or not ? Like is that to be {disfmarker} I mean if that 's accurate then that would determine tourist node .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If the context were to set one way or another , that like strongly uh um , says something about whether {disfmarker} whether or not they 're tourists .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So what 's interesting is when it 's not {disfmarker} when it 's set to \" unknown \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "We - what set the {disfmarker} they set the context to \" unknown \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right now we haven't observed it , so I guess it 's sort of averaging over all those three possibilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But yes , you can set it to un \" unknown \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And if we now do {disfmarker} leave everything else as is the results should be the same ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well no , because we {disfmarker} Th - the way we set the probabilities {vocalsound} might not have {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's an {disfmarker} it 's an issue , right ? Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Pretty much the same ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is . So the issue is that um in belief - nets , it 's not common to do what we did of like having , you know , a d bunch of values and then \" unknown \" as an actual value . What 's common is you just like don't observe the variable ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right , and then just marginalizes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We didn't do this because we felt that there 'd {disfmarker} I guess we were thinking in terms of a switch that actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We were thi Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We were th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} I don't know y what the right thing is to do for that . I 'm not {disfmarker} I don't know if I totally am happy with {vocalsound} the way it is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why don't we {disfmarker} Can we , um {disfmarker} How long would it take to {disfmarker} to add another {pause} node on the observatory and , um , play around with it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Another node on what ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , well it depends on how many things it 's linked to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's just say make it really simple . If we create {pause} something that for example would be um {disfmarker} So th some things can be landmarks in your sense but {pause} they {pause} can never be entered ? So for example s a statue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Good point .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So {pause} maybe we wanna have \" landmark \" {pause} meaning now \" enterable landmark \" versus , um something that 's simply just a vista point , for example .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah ? uh , a statue or um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So basically it 's addressing a variable that 's \" enterable or not \" . So like an \" enterable , question mark \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Also {disfmarker} {pause} you know , didn't we have a {pause} size as one ? The size of the landmark .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . Not when we were doing this ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but I guess at some point we did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For some reason I had that {disfmarker} OK , that was a thought that I had at one point but then went away .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you want to have a {disfmarker} a node for like whether or not it can be entered ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , for example , if we include that , yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "um , accessibility or something , yeah ? \" Is it {disfmarker} Can it be entered ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "then of course , this is {pause} sort of binary as well .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And then um , there 's also the question whether it may be entered . In the sense that , you know , if it 's {pause} Tom {disfmarker} the house of Tom Cruise , you know , it 's enterable but you may not enter it . You know ? You 're not allowed to .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Unless you are , whatever , his {disfmarker} his divorce lawyer or something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ? and um {disfmarker} And these are very observable sort of from the {disfmarker} from the ontology sort of things .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Way Does it actually help to distinguish between those two cases though ? Whether it 's practically speaking enterable , or actually physically enterable {pause} or not ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "y y If {disfmarker} If you 're running an errand you maybe more likely to be able to enter places that are usually not {vocalsound} al w you 're not usually {disfmarker} not allowed to uh m", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It seems like it would for uh , uh {pause} determining whether they wanna go into it or not .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well I can see why {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Cuz they {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Let 's get this uh b clearer . S so it 's matrix between if it 's not enterable , period .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Whether it 's a {disfmarker} Whether it 's a public building , and whether it 's {disfmarker} actually has a door .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "This is sort of uh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So Tom Cruise 's house is {pause} not a public building", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but it has a door . But the thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , sh explain to me why it 's necessary {pause} to distinguish between whether something has a door and is {pause} not public . Or , if something {disfmarker} It seems like it 's equivalent to say that it doesn't have a door a {pause} and it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or \" not public \" and \" not a door \" are equivalent things ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it seems like in practice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah . So we would have {disfmarker} What does it mean , then , that we have to {disfmarker} we have an object type statue . That really is an object type . So there is {disfmarker} there 's gonna be a bunch of statues .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And then we have , for example , an object type , {pause} hmm , that 's a hotel . How about hotels ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , the most famous building in Heidelberg is actually a hotel . It 's the hotel Zum Ritter , which is the only Renaissance building in Heidelberg that was left after {pause} the big destruction and for the Thirty Years War , blah - blah - blah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Does it have nice walls ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It has wonderful walls . Um - And lots of detail , c and carvings , engravings and so forth ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Excellent .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so . But , um , it 's still an unlikely candidate for the Tango mode I {pause} must say . But . Um . So {disfmarker} s So if you are a d Well it 's very tricky . So I guess your question is {disfmarker} so far I have no really arg no real argument why to differentiate between statues as {disfmarker} statues and houses of celebrities , from that point of view . Huh . OK . Let {disfmarker} Let 's do a {disfmarker} Can we add , just so I can see how it 's done , uh , a \" has door \" {pause} property or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What would it , uh , connect to ? Like , what would , uh , it affect ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , I think , um , it might affect {disfmarker} Oh actually it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it wouldn't affect any of our nodes , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "What I was thinking was if you had a {disfmarker} like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh it 's {disfmarker} it affects th The \" doing business \" is certainly not .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You could affect {disfmarker} {pause} Theoretically you could affect \" doing business \" with \" has door \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It should , um , inhibit that ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know if JavaBayes is nice about that . It might be that if you add a new thing pointing to a variable , you just like {disfmarker} it just overwrites everything . But {pause} you can check .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , {pause} we have it saved . So . {vocalsound} We can rel open it up again .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . It 's true .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The {pause} safety net .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think you could just add it . I mean , I have before OK . Whew !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well that 's fine , but we have to see the function now . Has it become all point fives or not ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Let 's see . So this is \" has door \" Uh , true , false . That 's acceptable . And I want to edit the function going to that , right ? Oh no .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . This is fine ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . It was fine .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "this business .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "added this one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What would be nice if it {disfmarker} is if it just like kept the old function for either value but . Nope . Didn't {pause} do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh wait , it might be {disfmarker} Did we w Yes , that 's not good .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's {pause} kind of annoying .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , so just dis dismiss everything . Close it and {disfmarker} and load up the old state so {pause} it doesn't screw {disfmarker} screw that up .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Let 's see . Oops .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe you can read in ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ha - So have you used JavaBayes a lot ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yes . Really {vocalsound} I ha I 've {disfmarker} I haven't used it a lot and I haven't used it in the last you know many months so", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "um , uh , we can ask someone .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It might be worth uh {disfmarker} asking around .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Like , we looked at sort of uh {disfmarker} a page that had like a bunch of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Srini {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , S I guess he 'd be the person .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Srini 's the one to ask I would say .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um . He might know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean in a way this is a lot of good features in Java it 's cra has a GUI and it 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I guess those are the main two things . It does learning , it has {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No it doesn't , actually .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I didn't think it did learning .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe it did a little bit of learning ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't remember .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh right . Maybe you 're right . OK . Right . But uh {disfmarker} it 's free .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Which is w quite positive , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But uh , yeah . Maybe another thing that uh {disfmarker} But I mean its interface is not the greatest . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But actually it had an interface .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "A lot of them were like , you know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Command line .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What is the c code ? Can w can we see that ? How do you write the code", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The c", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "or do you actually never have to write any code there ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . There is actually a text file that you can edit . But it 's {disfmarker} You don't have to do that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's like an XML format for {pause} Bayes - nets .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is it XML ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The - there is one . I don't know if this uses it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . No this doesn't use it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I didn't think it did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You can look at the text file .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But do you have it here ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , yes I do actually .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , maybe you don't .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let me see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yes , of course .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh man ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like , there 's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I didn't n {pause} Is there an ampersand in DOS ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Nope . Just s l start up a new DOS .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We - That 's alright . I can probably double cli click on it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "n uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's see , come on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 'll ask you what you {disfmarker} what it wants {disfmarker} what you want to open it with and see what BAT , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "One of these days , it should open this , theoretically .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Go {disfmarker} Right mouse . Open with .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh there we go .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} Oh !", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe it was just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh ! W Ah , it was dead . To the world .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "God !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Through the old Notepad . That 's my favorite editor .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I like {disfmarker} I like Word Pad because it has the uh {disfmarker} the returns ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wordpad ? I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "the carriage returns on some of them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You know how they get \" auto - fills \" I guess ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mmm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or whatever you call it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Anyway , there it is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So this is sort of LISP - y ? No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It just basically looks like it just specifies a bunch of", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's how actual probability tables are specified .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "As , like , lists of numbers .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So theoretically you could edit that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It just that {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {pause} they 're not very friendly .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah the ordering isn't very clear on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you 'd have to like figure out {disfmarker} Like you have to go and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . The layout {pause} of the table .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Actually we could write a program that could generate this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah you could .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You could .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We were doing it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah we can maybe write an interface th for uh entering probability distributions easily , something like {disfmarker} like a little script . That might {vocalsound} be worth it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And that might do .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I actually seem to recall Srini complaining about something to do with Entering probability so this is probably", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The other thing is it is in Java", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We could {pause} manipulate the source {pause} itself ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Do you have the true source files or just the class ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I don't know if he actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . we do", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Does he {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I saw directory called \" source \" ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I didn't e", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} Yeah . Go up one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Up one . Ah yes , good .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Source \" . That 's {disfmarker} that 's quite nice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I don't know if it actually manipulate the source , though . That might be a bit complicated .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think it might {disfmarker} it might be simpler to just {pause} have a script that , you know {disfmarker} It 's , like , friendly ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The d the data tables .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it allows you enter things well .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But if th if there is an XML {pause} file that {disfmarker} or format that it can also read {disfmarker} I mean it just reads this , right ? When it starts .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah I know there is an {disfmarker} I was looking on the we web page and he 's updated it for an XML version of I guess Bayes - nets . There 's a Bayes - net spec for {disfmarker} in XML .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "He 's {disfmarker} Like this guy has ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The JavaBayes guy ? So {disfmarker} but , e he doesn't use it . So in what sense has he updated it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well th you can either {disfmarker} you ca or you can read both .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh . I see .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "To my understanding .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . That would be awesome .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Because uh {disfmarker} Well at least the {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I could have misread the web page , I have a habit of doing that , but .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , wonderful .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So you got more slides ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Do I have more slides ? Um yes , one more . \" Future Work \" . I think every presentation have a should have a \" Future Work \" slide . But uh it 's basically {disfmarker} we already talked about all this stuff , so .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . The additional thing is I guess learning the probabilities , {pause} also . E That 's maybe , I don't know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh that 's future future work .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Does {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Very future .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And of course if you have a presentation that doesn't {disfmarker} have something that doesn't work at all , then you have \" What I learned \" , as a slide .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Can't you have both ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You could . My first approach failed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What I learned . OK , so I think that uh our presentation 's finished .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I know what I like about these meetings is one person will nod , and then the next person will nod , and then it just goes all the way around the room .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So the uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I missed my turn .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No I {disfmarker} Earlier I went {nonvocalsound} and Bhaskara went {nonvocalsound} and you did it . You did it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's like yawning .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's like yawning .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And this announcement was in stereo .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ha .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So this means um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Should I pull up the {pause} net again ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Could you put the {disfmarker} the um , net up again ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yes . There we go .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And actually I was {disfmarker} cuz I got a wireless mike on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So a more general thing than \" discussed admission fee \" um , could be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering whether the context , the background context of the discourse {vocalsound} might be {disfmarker} I don't know , if there 's a way to define it or maybe you know generalize it some way um , there might be other cues that , say , um , in the last few utterances there has been something that has strongly associated with say one of the particular modes uh , I don't know if that might be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . I think we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "uh , and {disfmarker} and into that node would be various {disfmarker} various things that {disfmarker} that could have specifically come up .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think a {disfmarker} a sort of general strategy here {disfmarker} You know , this is {disfmarker} this is excellent because {disfmarker} um it gets you thinking along these terms {disfmarker} is that maybe we ob we could observe a couple of um discourse phenomena such as the admission fee , and something else and something else , that happened in the discourse before .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} let 's make those four . And maybe there are two um {disfmarker} So maybe this could be sort of a separate region of the net , {pause} which has two {disfmarker} {pause} has it 's own middle layer . Maybe this , you know , has some {pause} kind {pause} of um , funky thing that di if this and this may influence these hidden nodes of the discourse which is maybe something that is uh , a more general version of the actual {pause} phenomenon that you can observe . So things that point towards {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So instead of single node , for {pause} like , if they said the word \" admission fee \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "\" admission fee \" , or maybe , you know , \" how much to enter \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or you know something , other cues .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Opening hours or something like that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly . That would all f funnel into one node that would {pause} constitute entrance requirements or something like that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So \" pay a visit \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "uh uh d", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean it sort of get into plan recognition kinds of things in the discourse . I mean that 's like the bigger um , version of it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly . Yeah ? And then maybe there are some discourse acts if they happened before , um it 's more for um a cue that the person actually wants to get somewhere else and that you are in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a route um , sort of proceeding past these things , so this would be just something that {disfmarker} where you want to pass it . Hmm ? Is that it ? However these are of course then the {disfmarker} the nodes , the observed nodes , for your middle layer . So this {pause} again points to \" final destination \" , \" doing business \" , \" tourist hurry \" and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah ? And so then we can say , \" OK . we have a whole {pause} region {disfmarker} \" {vocalsound} in a e", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's a whole set of discourse related cues to your middle layer .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly . And this is just {disfmarker} then just one .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So e because at the end the more we um {disfmarker} add , you know , the more spider - web - ish it 's going to become in the middle and the more of hand editing . It 's going to get very ugly . But with this way we could say \" OK , these are the {pause} discourse phenomena . They ra may have there own hidden layer {pause} that points to some of {pause} the {disfmarker} the real hidden layer , um or the general hidden layer .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And the same we will be able to do for syntactic information , the verbs used , the object types used , modifiers . And maybe there 's a hidden layer for that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so forth and so forth . Then we have context .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So essentially a lot of those nodes can be expanded into little Bayes - nets of their own .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Precisely . So .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One thing that 's kind of been bugging me when I {disfmarker} more I look at this is that the {disfmarker} I guess , the fact that the {disfmarker} there 's a complete separation between the {pause} observed features and in the output .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean , it makes it cleaner , but then uh {disfmarker} I mean .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For instance if the discourse does {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What do you mean by that ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well for instance , the \" discourse admission fee \" {pause} node seems like it should point directly to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or increase the probability of \" enter {pause} directly \" versus \" going there via tourist \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or we could like add more , uh , sort of middle nodes . Like we could add a node like do they want to enter it , which is affected by admission fee and by whether it 's closed and by whether it has a door .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it 's like {disfmarker} There are {disfmarker} Those are the two options . Either like make an arrow directly or put a new node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "that makes sense .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And if it {disfmarker} if you do it {disfmarker} If you could connect it too hard you may get such phenomenon that {disfmarker} like \" So how much has it cost to enter ? \" and the answer is two hundred fifty dollars , and then the persons says um \" Yeah I want to see it . \" Yeah ? meaning \" It 's way out of my budget \" um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "There are places in Germany where it costs two hundred fifty dollars to enter ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , nothing comes to mind . Without thinking too hard . Um , maybe , yeah of course , um opera premiers .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or any good old Pink Floyd concert .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I see . If you want to see \" The Magic Flute \" or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or maybe um , a famous restaurant . or , I don't know . There are various things that you might w not want to eat a {pause} meal there but {pause} your own table .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The Spagos of Heidelberg .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think that the h I mean nothing beats the {disfmarker} the admission charge prices in Japan . So there , two hundred dollars is {disfmarker} is moderate for getting into a discotheque . You know . Then again , everything else is free then once you 're ins in there .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Really .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Food and drink and so forth . So . I mean . But i you know , i we can {disfmarker} Something {disfmarker} Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and u the answer {pause} is s if we {disfmarker} um , you know , um {disfmarker} still , based on that result is never going to enter that building .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know ? Because it 's just too expensive .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I think I see . So the discourse refers to \" admission fee \" but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . you have to have some notion of not just {disfmarker} I mean there 's a {disfmarker} there 's change across several turns of discourse", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so {vocalsound} I don't know how {disfmarker} if any of this was discussed {disfmarker} but how i if it all this is going to interact with {vocalsound} whatever general {vocalsound} uh , other {disfmarker} other discourse processing that might be happen .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . {comment} {nonvocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What sort of discourse {pause} processing is uh {disfmarker} are the {disfmarker} How much is built into SmartKom and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It works like this . The uh , um {disfmarker} I mean . The first thing we get is that {pause} already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention , right ? simply by parsing it . And this um {disfmarker} m won't differentiate between all modes , yeah ? but at least it 'll tell us \" OK here we have something that {disfmarker} somebody that wants to go someplace , now it 's up for us to figure out what kind of going there is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} {pause} is happening , and um , if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything {disfmarker} all the information is needed , what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it 's handed on to the discourse history which is , um o one of the most elaborate {disfmarker} elaborate modules . It 's {disfmarker} it 's actually the {disfmarker} the whole memory of the entire system , that knows what {disfmarker} wh who said what , which was {disfmarker} what was presented . It helps an an anaphora resolution and it {disfmarker} and it fills in all the structures that are omitted , so , {pause} um , because you say \" OK , {pause} how can I get to the castle ? \" Oh , how {disfmarker} how much is it ? \" and um \" yeah I would like uh {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} to g let 's do it \" and so forth . So even without an a ana {pause} anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened . so {vocalsound} whenever the uh , um person is not actually rejecting what happened before , so as in \" No I really don't want to see that movie . I 'd rather stay home and watch TV \" um {disfmarker} What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is {disfmarker} is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step , by the discourse model {disfmarker} discourse {pause} model , Yeah , that 's what it 's called . and , um , it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues . So a person pointing to something on the screen , you know , the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a rather huge {vocalsound} {disfmarker} huge thing but um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} um {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} we can {pause} sort of {disfmarker} It has a very clear interface . We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and {disfmarker} and the turn before that or you know how {pause} deep we want to search", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} which is a question . How deep do we want to sear , you know ? Um {disfmarker} but we should {pause} try to keep in mind that , you know , we 're doing this sort of for research , so we {disfmarker} we should find a limit that 's reasonable and not go , you know , all the way back to Adam and Eve . You know , did that person ever discuss admissions fee {disfmarker} fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty {disfmarker} pretty you know {vocalsound} concise and {disfmarker} Anyway .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the {pause} use of \" admission fee discussion \" as a cue for entry , {vocalsound} {pause} is thinking about the plans that various people might have . Like all the different {vocalsound} sort of general schemas that they might be following OK . This person is um , finding out information about this thing in order to go {pause} in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place {pause} in order to do business . Um , because then {pause} anything that 's a cue for one of the steps {pause} would be slight evidence for that overall plan . Um , I don't know . They 're {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have {vocalsound} {pause} you know , some idea at each turn of agent doing something , \" OK , wha what plans is this a {disfmarker} consistent with ? \" and then get s some more information and then you see {pause} \" here 's a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into \" . It {disfmarker} it might be useful here too .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know how you know you 'd have to {vocalsound} {pause} figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} u u", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's in the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these plan schemas . I mean there are some {disfmarker} some of them are extremely elaborate , you know . \" What do you need {disfmarker} need to buy a ticket ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You know ? and it {disfmarker} it 's fifty steps ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "huh ? just for buying a ticket {pause} at a ticket counter , you know , and {disfmarker} and maybe that 's helpful to look at it {disfmarker} to look at those . It 's amazing what human beings can do . W when we talked uh we had the example , you know , of you being uh {disfmarker} a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands , says {vocalsound} New York and you say Track seven , huh ? And it 's because you know that that person actually is following , you know {disfmarker} You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps , you know , without any information other than \" New York \" , huh ? inferring everything from the context . So , works . Um , even though there is probably no train from here to New York , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mmm . Not direct .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You 'd uh probably have to transfer in Chicago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But uh {disfmarker} it 's possible . Um , no you probably have to transfer also somewhere else . Right ? Is that t San Francisco , Chicago ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is that possible ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One time I saw a report on trains , and I think there is a l I don't know if {disfmarker} I thought there was a line that went from somewhere , maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but there was like a California to Chicago line of some sort .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I could be wrong though . It was a while ago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The Transcontinental Railroad , doesn't that ring a bell ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but I don't know if it 's still {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think it has to exist somewhere .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "They might have blown it up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well it never went all the way , right ? I mean you always had to change trains at Omaha ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well most of the way .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? One track ended there and the other one started at {disfmarker} five meters away from that", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well . {pause} You seem to know better than we do so .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yeah ? Has anybody ever been on an Amtrak ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I have . But not transcontinentally .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'm frightened by Amtrak myself .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ? Why ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I just {disfmarker} They seem to have a lot of accidents on the Amtrak .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Their reputation is very bad .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "huh ? It 's not maybe reality .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's not like German trains . Like German trains are really great so .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} you know , I don't know whether it 's {disfmarker} which ones are safer , you know , statistically .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , but they 're faster .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Much faster . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And there 's much more of them . Yeah , they 're Yeah , it 's {pause} way better", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah I used {disfmarker} um Amtrak quite a bit on the east coast and I was surprised . It was actually OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You know , on Boston New York ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "New York Rhode Island ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "whatever ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 've done that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Boston .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} That 's {pause} a different issue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "This is going to be an interesting transcript .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I want to see what it does with uh \" landmark - iness \" . That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's all say it a few more times .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It 'd help it figure it out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Just kidding . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So by the way tha that structure {pause} that Robert drew on the board was like more um , {vocalsound} {pause} cue - type - based , right , here 's like we 're gonna {vocalsound} segment off a bit of stuff that comes from discourse and then {pause} some of the things we 're talking about here are more {disfmarker} you know , we mentioned maybe {pause} if they talk about {pause} um , I don't know , entering or som you know like they might be more task - based .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I don't know if there {disfmarker} There 's obviously some {disfmarker} m more than one way of organizing {pause} the variables into something", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think that um {disfmarker} What you guys did is really nicely sketching out different tasks , and maybe some of their conditions .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One task is more likely you 're in a hurry when you do that kind of s doing business ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and less in a hurry when uh {disfmarker} you 're a tourist Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} tourists may have {disfmarker} never have final destinations , you know because they are eternally traveling around so {vocalsound} maybe what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what happened {disfmarker} what might happen is that we do get this sort of task - based middle layer ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and then we 'll get these sub - middle layers , that are more cue - based .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . That feed into those ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Nah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Might be {disfmarker} might be a nice dichotomy of {disfmarker} of the world . So , um I suggest w to {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} to proceed with this in {disfmarker} in the sense that {pause} maybe throughout this week the three of us will {disfmarker} will talk some more about maybe segmenting off different regions , and we make up some {disfmarker} {pause} some toy a observable \" nodes \" {disfmarker} is that what th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Refined y re just refine the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What 's the technical term ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . For which ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For the uh {disfmarker} nodes that are observable ? The \" outer layer \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Just observable nodes ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The features ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "evidence nodes ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know , whatever you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Feature ma make up some features for those {disfmarker} Identify {pause} four regions ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "maybe make up some features for each region and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uh , uh {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} middle layer for those . And then these should then connect somehow to the more plan - based deep space", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Basically just refine {pause} some of the more general nodes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep . The - they {disfmarker} they will be aud ad - hoc for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for some time to come .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is totally like {disfmarker} The probabilities and all are completely ad - hoc . We need to look at all of them . I mean but , they 're even like {vocalsound} {pause} I mean like , close to the end we were like , uh , you know we were like uh {vocalsound} really ad - hoc .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's a even distribution . Like , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right ? Cuz if it 's like , uh {disfmarker} If it 's four things coming in , right ? And , say , some of them have like three possibilities and all that . So you 're thinking like {disfmarker} like a hundred and forty four or something {pause} possible things {disfmarker} numbers to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} That 's terrible .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Some of them are completely absurd too , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want to enter , but it 's closed ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's night time , you know there are tourists and all this weird stuff happens at the line up and you 're like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , the only like possible interpretation is that they are like {disfmarker} come here just to rob the museum or {pause} something to that effect .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "confused .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "In which case you 're supposed to alert the authorities , {vocalsound} and see appropriate action .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , another thing to do , um , is also to , um {disfmarker} I guess to ask around people about other Bayes - net packages . Is Srini gonna be {pause} at the meeting tomorrow , do you know ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The day after tomorrow .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Wait {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Quite possibly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Wednesday .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Day after tomorrow .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , oh , sorry .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sorry , Wednesday ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Who 's talking on Wednesday ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Maybe we can ask him about it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I haven't {disfmarker} J Jerry never sent out a {disfmarker} sent out an email , did he , ever ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . But he mentioned at the last meeting that someone was going to be talking , I forget who .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , isn't Ben ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ben ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ben , then ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think it 's Ben actually ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ben .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "yeah , um , giving his job talk I think . um , Sorry . I was just reading the screen .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So the uh {disfmarker} That will be one {disfmarker} one thing we could do . I actually uh , have {disfmarker} Um , also we can uh , start looking at the SmartKom tables and I will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I actually wanted to show that {pause} to you guys now but um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Do you want to {pause} trade ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , no I {disfmarker} I actually made a mistake because it {disfmarker} it fell asleep and when Linux falls asleep on my machine it 's {disfmarker} it doesn't wake up ever , so I had to reboot", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , no .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And if I reboot without a network , I will not be able to start SmartKom , because I need to have a network .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So we 'll do that t maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But . OK . But once you start {disfmarker} sart start SmartKom you can be on {disfmarker} You don't have to be on a network anymore . Is that the deal ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah , interesting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why does SmartKom need a network ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it looks up some stuff that , {pause} you know , is {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} is in the {disfmarker} written by the operating system only if it {disfmarker} if you get a DHCP request , so it {disfmarker} you know , my computer does not know its IP address , you know ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know . So . Unless it boots up with networking .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's plugged in . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And I don't have an IP address , they can't look up {disfmarker} they don't know who localhost is , and so forth and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Always fun . But it 's a , um , simple solution . We can just um , go downstairs and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and look at this , but maybe not today . The other thing um {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} oh yeah , OK , I have to report {vocalsound} um , data collection . We interviewed Fey ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "She 's willing to do it , meaning be the wizard for the data collection , also {vocalsound} maybe transcribe a little bit , if she has to , but also recruiting subjects , organizing them , and so forth . So that looks good . Jerry however suggested that we should uh have a trial run with her , see whether she can actually do all the uh spontaneous , eloquent and creativeness that we uh expect of the wizard . And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So who would be the subject {pause} of this trial run ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Pardon me ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Who {disfmarker} Will there be a {disfmarker} Is one {disfmarker} Is you {disfmarker} one of you gonna be the subject ? Like are you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um Liz also volunteered to be the first subject , {vocalsound} which I think might be even better than us guys .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One of us , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "If we do need her for the technical stuff , then of course one of you has to sort of uh {disfmarker} jump in .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I like how we 've {disfmarker} you guys have successfully narrowed it down . \" Is one of you going to be the subject ? \" Is one of you {disfmarker} jump in .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Reference . I haven't done it yet .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well I just figured it has to be someone who 's , um , familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard , so we can , uh , see if they 're you know good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh plants ? e u someone who can plant difficult things .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean that 's what we wanna {pause} check , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , in this case it 's a p it 's a {pause} sort of testing of the wizard rather than of the subject .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Isn't that what it is ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yes w we {disfmarker} we would like to test the wizard , but {vocalsound} you know , if we take a subject that is completely unfamiliar with the task , or any of the set up , we get a more realistic", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I guess that would be reasonable .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know , set up as {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know . That 's probably a good enough test of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sort of having an actively antagonistic , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . That might be a little unfair . Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 'm sure if we uh , {disfmarker} You think there 's a chance we might need Liz for , whatever , the technical side of things ? I 'm sure we can get {pause} other people around who don't know anything {pause} um , if we want another subject .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You know . Like I can drag Ben into it or something . Although he might cause problems but . So , is it a experimental setup for the um , data collection {pause} totally {pause} ready {disfmarker} determined ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I like that . \" Test the wizard . \" I want that on a T - shirt .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} experimental setup u on the technical issue yes , except we st I think we still need uh {disfmarker} a recording device for the wizard , just a tape recorder that 's running in a room .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} in terms of specifying the scenario , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} we 've gotten a little further", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but um {disfmarker} we wanted to wait until we know who is the wizard , and have the wizard partake in the {pause} ultimate {pause} sort of definition probe . So {disfmarker} so if {disfmarker} if on Friday it turns out that she really likes it and {disfmarker} and we really like her , then nothing should stop us from sitting down next week and {vocalsound} {comment} getting all the details completely figured out .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So the ideal task um , {pause} will have {pause} whatever I don't know how much the structure of the evolving Bayes - net {vocalsound} {pause} will af affect {disfmarker} Like we wanna {disfmarker} we wanna be able to collect {vocalsound} as much of the variables that are needed for that ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm - yea - some .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? in the course of the task ? Well not all of them but you know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Bu - e e e I 'm even {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this Tango , Enter , Vista is sort of , itself , an ad - hoc scenario .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the basic u um idea behind the uh {pause} data collection was the following . The data we get from Munich is {pause} very command line , simple linguistic stuff .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hardly anything complicated . No metaphors whatsoever .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Not a rich language . So we wanted just to collect data , to get {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {pause} elicits more , uh , that elicits richer language .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And we actually did not want to constrain it too much ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know ? Just see what people say . And then maybe we 'll discover the phenomenon {disfmarker} the phenomena that we want to solve , you know , with {pause} whatever engine we {disfmarker} we come up with . Um . So this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is a parallel track , you know , there {disfmarker} they hopefully meet ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So in other words this data collection is {pause} more general .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but since {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It could {disfmarker} it could {pause} be used for not just this task .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It should tell us , you know , what kind of phenomenon could occur , it should tell us also maybe something about the difference between people who think they speak to a computer versus people who think they speak to a human being", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and the sort of differences there . So it may get us some more information on the human - machine pragmatics , um , that no one knows anything about , as of yesterday . And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} nothing has changed {comment} since then , so . Uh . And secondly , now that of course we have sort of started to lick blood with this , and especially since um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Johno can't stop Tango - ing , {vocalsound} we may actually include , you know , those {disfmarker} those intentions . So now I think we should maybe have at least one navigational task with {disfmarker} with sort of explicit {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "not ex it 's implicit that the person wants to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and maybe some task where it 's more or less explicit that the person wants to take a picture ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or see it or something . So that we can label it . I mean , that 's how we get a corpus that we can label .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Whereas , you know , if we 'd just get data we 'd never know what they actually wanted , we 'd get no cues . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Alrighty .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That was that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So is this the official end of the meeting now ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Looks like it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So what 's \" Economics , the fallacy \" ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ma", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I just randomly {pause} label things . So that has nothing to do with economics or anything .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , really ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe we ought to switch off these things before we continue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Switching o", "speaker": "Grad D" } ]

[ { "content": "Nice .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "to {disfmarker} to handle .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is that good ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , I 've have never handled them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Goats eat cans , to my understanding . Tin cans .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Did we need to do these things ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Could I hit {disfmarker} hit F - seven to do that ? on the {disfmarker} Robert ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , the remote will do it OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Cuz I 'm already up there ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "in control here .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You are in control . Already ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wow , we 're all so high tech here . Yet another p PowerPoint presentation .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} Well it makes it easier {pause} to do", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Certainly does .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So , {pause} we were {disfmarker} Ah !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Johno , where are you ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So , Let 's see . Which one of these buttons will do this for me ? Aha ! OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Should you go back to the first one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Do I wanna go back to the first one ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , {pause} just to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Introduce .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , um {vocalsound} Well , \" the search for the middle layer \" . It 's basically uh talks about uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It just refers to the fact that uh {pause} one of main things we had to do was to {pause} decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I can read ! I 'm kidding .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know , because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to {pause} click on the little {pause} light bulb .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Although I 've {disfmarker} I 've never {disfmarker} I don't know what the light bulb is for . I didn't i install that into my {pause} PowerPoint presentation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Do you wanna try ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ach u", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'd prefer not to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Continue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's a needless good idea . Is that the idea ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh ! OK . Of course . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and then {pause} if I do that it 'll mess everything up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I was wondering .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Is that OK ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Can you maximize the window ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Proceed .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You want me to {disfmarker} Wait , what do you want me to do ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't {disfmarker} doesn't appear ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , It 's OK . It 's {disfmarker} It 'll work .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , fine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Here , let 's see if I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Very nice .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Is that better ? OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I 'll also get rid of this \" Click to add notes \" . OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Perfect .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So then the features we decided {disfmarker} or we decided we were {disfmarker} talked about , right ? Uh the {disfmarker} the prosody , the discourse , {pause} verb choice . You know . We had a list of things like \" to go \" and \" to visit \" and what not . The \" landmark - iness \" of uh {disfmarker} I knew you 'd like that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Nice coinage .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Thank you . uh , of a {disfmarker} of a building . Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line {pause} for space . \" Nice walls \" {vocalsound} which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna {pause} get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it . And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls . The context , which in this case we 've limited to {pause} \" business person \" , \" tourist \" , or {pause} \" unknown \" , the time of day , and \" open to suggestions \" , isn't actually a feature . It 's {pause} \" We are open to suggestions . \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that {vocalsound} uh , in this particular domain {disfmarker} you said {disfmarker} be {disfmarker} i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the {disfmarker} that landmark - iness cor is correlated with", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . We have a separate", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "They 're separate things .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "feature .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "their being nice w", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I either could put \" nice walls \" on its own line or \" open to suggestions \" off the slide .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like you could have a p", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} By \" nice \" you mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} Like you could have a post office with uh {disfmarker} you know , nice murals or something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or one time I was at this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So \" nice walls \" is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh {disfmarker} significant", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But see the thing is , if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Architecturally appealing from the outside .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "or something like that . OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from {disfmarker} Like you m might be able to \" Vista \" it ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? And be able to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Appreciate it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I don't remember w", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It was a long time ago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "There 's a lot of those .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But if you looked at it real close , you could see the {disfmarker} the in intricacy of the {disfmarker} of the walls .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So that count as {disfmarker} counts as a nice wall .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} OK . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Something you want to inspect at close range {pause} because it 's interesting .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Robert ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well there {disfmarker} there is a term {pause} that 's often used . That 's \" saliency \" , or the \" salience \" of an object . And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as \" landmark - iness \" . But it 's really not . I mean an object can be very salient", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but not a landmark at all .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Not a landmark at all . There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . but you can imagine maybe wanting the oth both kinds of things there for different um , goals .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be {disfmarker} Wouldn't {disfmarker} couldn't they also be {disfmarker} They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like {pause} non - tourist - y landmarks and", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or it can be als", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "direct navigational {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "They 're not mutually exclusive ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . Definitely .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying , {pause} because {disfmarker} uh our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , a big flat structure .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And uh , so we {disfmarker} Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that . If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped . I don't know belief - nets very well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well usually , I mean , you know , N {disfmarker} If you have N features , then it 's two to the N {disfmarker} {pause} or exponential in N .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And they wouldn't look pretty . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh . So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was {vocalsound} we have the features that we 've drawn {pause} from the communication of some {disfmarker} Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like \" I 'm {disfmarker} \" the {disfmarker} the abstract idea being \" I am a tourist I want to go {pause} to this place . \" Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and {pause} what they 've said previously and whatnot . And then we have {pause} the means {vocalsound} that they should use . Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist {pause} or {pause} whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines . Or {disfmarker} Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the {disfmarker} from the data , the hidden variables . Yes , good . So then the hidden variables {disfmarker} hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} or th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Want to do Vista ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ? Because {pause} if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a {disfmarker} like a {pause} navigational point to go to another place .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed . Those are all {disfmarker} And then \" Let 's look at the belief - net \" {comment} OK . So that means that I should switch to the {pause} other program . Um right now it 's still kind of {pause} in a toy {pause} version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of {disfmarker} {pause} or {disfmarker} Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No one knows it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So this right {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker} Let 's see . What happens if I maximize this ? There we go . But uh {disfmarker} So . The mode {pause} basically has three different {pause} outputs . The probability {disfmarker} whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter . Um {disfmarker} The \" context \" , we simplified . Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown . \" Verb used \" is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's {disfmarker} it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a {pause} Vista verb .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that one needs a lot of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And are those mutually exclusive sets ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Not at all . That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that needs a lot of work .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {vocalsound} {pause} that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Got it . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so we decided that for the purposes of this {pause} it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Simple .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Stab at it . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Um {disfmarker} Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} that are not coming to my mind right now .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the {disfmarker} sort of , the things that are not directly extracted . Actually , the five things . The \" closed \" is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well i it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "From the {pause} utterance ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's so it sort of is", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Actually , no , wait .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} because have the {disfmarker} the time of day", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It is . OK , \" closed \" sort of is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and the close it just had the {disfmarker} er and what time it closed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker} you know probabilistically depends on the other things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Inferred from the other ones ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} {pause} the actual parse is somewhere up around in here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . So we haven't uh , managed {disfmarker} Like we don't have nodes for \" discourse \" and \" parse \" , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So some of the {disfmarker} the top row of things {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker} what 's \" Disc admission fee \" ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "whether they discuss the admission fees . So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like {vocalsound} \" Can I get to this place ? \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "\" What is the admission fee ? \" . So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "There were {disfmarker} there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but {pause} you know , {pause} we didn't have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That was like our example .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That was the {pause} initial one that we found .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So there are certain cues that are very strong {pause} either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "From the discourse that {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "for one of those . And then in that second row {pause} or whatever that row of Time of Day through that {disfmarker} So all of those {disfmarker} Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of {vocalsound} either world knowledge or situational {pause} things .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One , uh {disfmarker} Uh . {vocalsound} Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Unmark @ @ Time of Day \"", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I m I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . They 're {disfmarker} they 're are a couple of more things .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One thing {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean Uh . I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we {disfmarker} we all uh , agree on what {disfmarker} what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe {vocalsound} what changes we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , th OK . so one thing I {disfmarker} I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh {disfmarker} the \" admission fee \" thing set up . So one {pause} thing that we were thinking was {vocalsound} by doing the layers like this , Uh {disfmarker} we kept um {disfmarker} things from directly affecting the mode {pause} beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the \" admission fee \" going directly to the mode pointing at \" Enter \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? Versus pointing to just at \" tourist \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted {pause} to point at the middle and then {pause} down .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Why is the landmark {disfmarker} OK . The landmark is facing to the tourists . That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Navigational landmarks ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Navigational cue .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "navigational landmarks", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so Mm - hmm . Then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would be {pause} whatever building they referred to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Prosody .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . So let 's see . The variables .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Disc - \" admission fee \" is a binary thing , \" time of day \" is like morning , afternoon , night . Is that the deal ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's how we have it currently set up ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but it could be , {pause} you know , based upon hour", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Whatever granularity .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or {pause} dis we could discrete it {disfmarker} des descret - ize it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but um , we are just using the particular {vocalsound} part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So that 's given in their input .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Right ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so it 's not really all of context . Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply {vocalsound} for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . that 's very nice , huh ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or also unknown ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or un {pause} unknown ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Unknown , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Which is th Which one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but OK . so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , \" are you {disfmarker} \" I mean the {disfmarker} ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , it does .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So then you just have some probabilities over {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Everything is probablistic , and {disfmarker} There 's always {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . {disfmarker} over which which of those it is .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , right . So then landmark is {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . \" Verb used \" is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Rather , let me rephrase that . It {disfmarker} it can take values {vocalsound} in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um \" nice walls \" is binary , \" closed \" is binary \" final destination \" , again {disfmarker} Yeah , all those are binary I guess . And \" mode \" is one of three things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the middle layer is also binary ? No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh . It {disfmarker} Yeah . But all those things without question marks are also binary . Right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Which things ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Nice walls ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Wi", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh . \" Nice walls \" is uh {disfmarker} something that we extract from our world knowledge .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , a Oh yeah . Sorry . It is binary .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's true . Yeah . OK , I see your point .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I gotcha .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , similarly \" closed \" , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , we To do that we would add another uh {disfmarker} value for that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And that would require s updating the probability distribution for \" mode \" as well .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Because it would now have to like uh {disfmarker} take that possibility into account .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Take a conti", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would {disfmarker} that would help you {disfmarker} Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that {disfmarker} that would {vocalsound} {pause} determine {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Other syntactic information you mean ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of the landmark is {disfmarker} is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Usually . I {disfmarker} I don't know if that 's always the case I {disfmarker} I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have . So . Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "that 's always warping on something {disfmarker} some entity ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and um {disfmarker} Uh maybe at this stage we will {disfmarker} we do want to {disfmarker} uh sort of get {disfmarker} uh modifiers in there", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I want to get to the church quickly ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That would be a cue .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "what 's the fastest way", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , correct .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Um . OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Excellent . Do we have anything else to say about this ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We can do a little demo .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh the Yeah , we could . But the demo doesn't work very well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} We can do a demo in the sense that we can um , {vocalsound} just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Observe nodes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Go ahead .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK . Dat - dat - dah . What should I observe ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Just se set a few of them . You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time . Just like uh , {vocalsound} maybe the fact that they use a certain verb {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Actually forget the verb .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "just uh {disfmarker} I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the place has nice walls", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and it 's night .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "it 's starting to grow on me", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And the time of day is night ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , no wait . That {disfmarker} that doesn't uh {disfmarker} it 's not really consistent . They don't discuss the admission fee . Make that false .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And it 's night .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , they {disfmarker} OK . Oh whoops . I forgot to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That didn't work .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ach !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd like to do that again .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . That seems kind of redundant but .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That all you want ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So let 's see . I want {pause} to query ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" Go \" and , right , \" query \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ? the mode . OK , and then on here {disfmarker} So let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So that {pause} is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So slightly {pause} biased {pause} toward \" Tango \" ing", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "If it 's night time , {pause} they have not discussed admission fee , and the n walls are nice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So , yeah . I guess that {pause} sort of makes sense . The reason I say the {pause} demo doesn't work very well is yesterday we uh {disfmarker} {pause} observed everything in favor of {pause} taking a tour , and it came up as \" Tango \" , right ? Over and over again . We couldn't {disfmarker} we couldn't figure out how to turn it off of \" Tango \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It loves the Tango .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Huh ! Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , that 's obviously just to do with our probabilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like , {pause} we totally hand - tuned the probabilities ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right . We were like {vocalsound} \" hmm , well if the person does this and this and this , let 's say forty percent for this ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "fifty per \" Like , you know . So obviously that 's gonna happen .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Maybe the bias toward \" Tango \" ing was yours , then ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "that 's {disfmarker} that 's at {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} So we have to like fit the probabilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Spent my youth practicing the tango de la muerte .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , the real case ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "However you know , it {disfmarker} The purpose was not really , at this stage , to come up with meaningful probabilities but to get thinking about that hidden middle layer . And so th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We would actually {disfmarker} I guess once we look at the data more we 'll get more hidden {pause} nodes ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I 'd like to see more . Not because it would {pause} expedite the probabilities , cuz it wouldn't . It would actually slow that down tremendously .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . Well , yeah , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Not that much though . Only a little early .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I think we should have uh {disfmarker} exponentially more {pause} middle nodes than features we 've extracted . I 'm ju I 'm just jo", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . Are \" doing business \" versus \" tourist \" {disfmarker} They refer to your current task . Like {disfmarker} like current thing you want to do at this moment .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker} that 's an interesting point . Whether you 're {disfmarker} It 's whether {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And are th", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think it 's more like \" Are you are tourist ? are you in Ham - like Heidelberg for a {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , so , I thought that was directly given by the context {pause} switch .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's a different thing . What if the context , which is not set , but still they say things like , \" I want to go {pause} uh , see the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the castle and uh , et cetera . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well the I kind of {pause} thought of \" doing business \" as more of running an errand type thing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Business on the other hand is , uh , definitely what you 're doing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So if you run out of cash as a tourist , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you need to go to the AT", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So {pause} i wi th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , I see , you may have a task . wh you have to go get money and so you are doing business at that stage .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" How do I get to the bank ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I see . Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And that 'll affect whether you want to enter or you if you {disfmarker} kinda thing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So the \" tourists \" node {pause} should be {pause} um , very consistent with the context node . Right ? If you say that 's more their {disfmarker} in general what their background is .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think this context node is a bit of a {disfmarker} I don't know , like in d Uh {disfmarker} Do we {pause} wanna have {disfmarker} Like it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are you assuming that or not ? Like is that to be {disfmarker} I mean if that 's accurate then that would determine tourist node .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If the context were to set one way or another , that like strongly uh um , says something about whether {disfmarker} whether or not they 're tourists .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So what 's interesting is when it 's not {disfmarker} when it 's set to \" unknown \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "We - what set the {disfmarker} they set the context to \" unknown \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right now we haven't observed it , so I guess it 's sort of averaging over all those three possibilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But yes , you can set it to un \" unknown \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And if we now do {disfmarker} leave everything else as is the results should be the same ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well no , because we {disfmarker} Th - the way we set the probabilities {vocalsound} might not have {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's an {disfmarker} it 's an issue , right ? Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Pretty much the same ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is . So the issue is that um in belief - nets , it 's not common to do what we did of like having , you know , a d bunch of values and then \" unknown \" as an actual value . What 's common is you just like don't observe the variable ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right , and then just marginalizes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We didn't do this because we felt that there 'd {disfmarker} I guess we were thinking in terms of a switch that actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We were thi Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We were th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} I don't know y what the right thing is to do for that . I 'm not {disfmarker} I don't know if I totally am happy with {vocalsound} the way it is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why don't we {disfmarker} Can we , um {disfmarker} How long would it take to {disfmarker} to add another {pause} node on the observatory and , um , play around with it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Another node on what ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , well it depends on how many things it 's linked to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's just say make it really simple . If we create {pause} something that for example would be um {disfmarker} So th some things can be landmarks in your sense but {pause} they {pause} can never be entered ? So for example s a statue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Good point .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So {pause} maybe we wanna have \" landmark \" {pause} meaning now \" enterable landmark \" versus , um something that 's simply just a vista point , for example .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah ? uh , a statue or um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So basically it 's addressing a variable that 's \" enterable or not \" . So like an \" enterable , question mark \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Also {disfmarker} {pause} you know , didn't we have a {pause} size as one ? The size of the landmark .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . Not when we were doing this ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but I guess at some point we did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For some reason I had that {disfmarker} OK , that was a thought that I had at one point but then went away .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you want to have a {disfmarker} a node for like whether or not it can be entered ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , for example , if we include that , yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "um , accessibility or something , yeah ? \" Is it {disfmarker} Can it be entered ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "then of course , this is {pause} sort of binary as well .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And then um , there 's also the question whether it may be entered . In the sense that , you know , if it 's {pause} Tom {disfmarker} the house of Tom Cruise , you know , it 's enterable but you may not enter it . You know ? You 're not allowed to .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Unless you are , whatever , his {disfmarker} his divorce lawyer or something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ? and um {disfmarker} And these are very observable sort of from the {disfmarker} from the ontology sort of things .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Way Does it actually help to distinguish between those two cases though ? Whether it 's practically speaking enterable , or actually physically enterable {pause} or not ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "y y If {disfmarker} If you 're running an errand you maybe more likely to be able to enter places that are usually not {vocalsound} al w you 're not usually {disfmarker} not allowed to uh m", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It seems like it would for uh , uh {pause} determining whether they wanna go into it or not .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well I can see why {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Cuz they {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Let 's get this uh b clearer . S so it 's matrix between if it 's not enterable , period .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Whether it 's a {disfmarker} Whether it 's a public building , and whether it 's {disfmarker} actually has a door .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "This is sort of uh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So Tom Cruise 's house is {pause} not a public building", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but it has a door . But the thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , sh explain to me why it 's necessary {pause} to distinguish between whether something has a door and is {pause} not public . Or , if something {disfmarker} It seems like it 's equivalent to say that it doesn't have a door a {pause} and it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or \" not public \" and \" not a door \" are equivalent things ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it seems like in practice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah . So we would have {disfmarker} What does it mean , then , that we have to {disfmarker} we have an object type statue . That really is an object type . So there is {disfmarker} there 's gonna be a bunch of statues .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And then we have , for example , an object type , {pause} hmm , that 's a hotel . How about hotels ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , the most famous building in Heidelberg is actually a hotel . It 's the hotel Zum Ritter , which is the only Renaissance building in Heidelberg that was left after {pause} the big destruction and for the Thirty Years War , blah - blah - blah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Does it have nice walls ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It has wonderful walls . Um - And lots of detail , c and carvings , engravings and so forth ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Excellent .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so . But , um , it 's still an unlikely candidate for the Tango mode I {pause} must say . But . Um . So {disfmarker} s So if you are a d Well it 's very tricky . So I guess your question is {disfmarker} so far I have no really arg no real argument why to differentiate between statues as {disfmarker} statues and houses of celebrities , from that point of view . Huh . OK . Let {disfmarker} Let 's do a {disfmarker} Can we add , just so I can see how it 's done , uh , a \" has door \" {pause} property or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What would it , uh , connect to ? Like , what would , uh , it affect ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , I think , um , it might affect {disfmarker} Oh actually it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it wouldn't affect any of our nodes , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "What I was thinking was if you had a {disfmarker} like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh it 's {disfmarker} it affects th The \" doing business \" is certainly not .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You could affect {disfmarker} {pause} Theoretically you could affect \" doing business \" with \" has door \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It should , um , inhibit that ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know if JavaBayes is nice about that . It might be that if you add a new thing pointing to a variable , you just like {disfmarker} it just overwrites everything . But {pause} you can check .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , {pause} we have it saved . So . {vocalsound} We can rel open it up again .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . It 's true .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The {pause} safety net .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think you could just add it . I mean , I have before OK . Whew !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well that 's fine , but we have to see the function now . Has it become all point fives or not ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Let 's see . So this is \" has door \" Uh , true , false . That 's acceptable . And I want to edit the function going to that , right ? Oh no .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . This is fine ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . It was fine .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "this business .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "added this one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What would be nice if it {disfmarker} is if it just like kept the old function for either value but . Nope . Didn't {pause} do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh wait , it might be {disfmarker} Did we w Yes , that 's not good .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's {pause} kind of annoying .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , so just dis dismiss everything . Close it and {disfmarker} and load up the old state so {pause} it doesn't screw {disfmarker} screw that up .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Let 's see . Oops .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe you can read in ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ha - So have you used JavaBayes a lot ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yes . Really {vocalsound} I ha I 've {disfmarker} I haven't used it a lot and I haven't used it in the last you know many months so", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "um , uh , we can ask someone .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It might be worth uh {disfmarker} asking around .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Like , we looked at sort of uh {disfmarker} a page that had like a bunch of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Srini {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , S I guess he 'd be the person .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Srini 's the one to ask I would say .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um . He might know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean in a way this is a lot of good features in Java it 's cra has a GUI and it 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I guess those are the main two things . It does learning , it has {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No it doesn't , actually .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I didn't think it did learning .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe it did a little bit of learning ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't remember .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh right . Maybe you 're right . OK . Right . But uh {disfmarker} it 's free .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Which is w quite positive , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But uh , yeah . Maybe another thing that uh {disfmarker} But I mean its interface is not the greatest . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But actually it had an interface .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "A lot of them were like , you know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Command line .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What is the c code ? Can w can we see that ? How do you write the code", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The c", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "or do you actually never have to write any code there ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . There is actually a text file that you can edit . But it 's {disfmarker} You don't have to do that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's like an XML format for {pause} Bayes - nets .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is it XML ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The - there is one . I don't know if this uses it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . No this doesn't use it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I didn't think it did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You can look at the text file .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But do you have it here ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , yes I do actually .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , maybe you don't .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let me see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yes , of course .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh man ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like , there 's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I didn't n {pause} Is there an ampersand in DOS ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Nope . Just s l start up a new DOS .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We - That 's alright . I can probably double cli click on it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "n uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's see , come on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 'll ask you what you {disfmarker} what it wants {disfmarker} what you want to open it with and see what BAT , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "One of these days , it should open this , theoretically .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Go {disfmarker} Right mouse . Open with .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh there we go .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} Oh !", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe it was just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh ! W Ah , it was dead . To the world .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "God !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Through the old Notepad . That 's my favorite editor .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I like {disfmarker} I like Word Pad because it has the uh {disfmarker} the returns ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wordpad ? I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "the carriage returns on some of them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You know how they get \" auto - fills \" I guess ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mmm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or whatever you call it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Anyway , there it is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So this is sort of LISP - y ? No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It just basically looks like it just specifies a bunch of", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's how actual probability tables are specified .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "As , like , lists of numbers .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So theoretically you could edit that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It just that {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {pause} they 're not very friendly .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah the ordering isn't very clear on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you 'd have to like figure out {disfmarker} Like you have to go and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . The layout {pause} of the table .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Actually we could write a program that could generate this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah you could .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You could .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We were doing it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah we can maybe write an interface th for uh entering probability distributions easily , something like {disfmarker} like a little script . That might {vocalsound} be worth it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And that might do .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I actually seem to recall Srini complaining about something to do with Entering probability so this is probably", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The other thing is it is in Java", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We could {pause} manipulate the source {pause} itself ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Do you have the true source files or just the class ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I don't know if he actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . we do", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Does he {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I saw directory called \" source \" ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I didn't e", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} Yeah . Go up one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Up one . Ah yes , good .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Source \" . That 's {disfmarker} that 's quite nice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I don't know if it actually manipulate the source , though . That might be a bit complicated .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think it might {disfmarker} it might be simpler to just {pause} have a script that , you know {disfmarker} It 's , like , friendly ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The d the data tables .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it allows you enter things well .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But if th if there is an XML {pause} file that {disfmarker} or format that it can also read {disfmarker} I mean it just reads this , right ? When it starts .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah I know there is an {disfmarker} I was looking on the we web page and he 's updated it for an XML version of I guess Bayes - nets . There 's a Bayes - net spec for {disfmarker} in XML .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "He 's {disfmarker} Like this guy has ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The JavaBayes guy ? So {disfmarker} but , e he doesn't use it . So in what sense has he updated it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well th you can either {disfmarker} you ca or you can read both .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh . I see .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "To my understanding .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . That would be awesome .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Because uh {disfmarker} Well at least the {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I could have misread the web page , I have a habit of doing that , but .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , wonderful .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So you got more slides ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Do I have more slides ? Um yes , one more . \" Future Work \" . I think every presentation have a should have a \" Future Work \" slide . But uh it 's basically {disfmarker} we already talked about all this stuff , so .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . The additional thing is I guess learning the probabilities , {pause} also . E That 's maybe , I don't know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh that 's future future work .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Does {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Very future .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And of course if you have a presentation that doesn't {disfmarker} have something that doesn't work at all , then you have \" What I learned \" , as a slide .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Can't you have both ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You could . My first approach failed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What I learned . OK , so I think that uh our presentation 's finished .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I know what I like about these meetings is one person will nod , and then the next person will nod , and then it just goes all the way around the room .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So the uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I missed my turn .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No I {disfmarker} Earlier I went {nonvocalsound} and Bhaskara went {nonvocalsound} and you did it . You did it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's like yawning .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's like yawning .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And this announcement was in stereo .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ha .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So this means um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Should I pull up the {pause} net again ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Could you put the {disfmarker} the um , net up again ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yes . There we go .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And actually I was {disfmarker} cuz I got a wireless mike on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So a more general thing than \" discussed admission fee \" um , could be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering whether the context , the background context of the discourse {vocalsound} might be {disfmarker} I don't know , if there 's a way to define it or maybe you know generalize it some way um , there might be other cues that , say , um , in the last few utterances there has been something that has strongly associated with say one of the particular modes uh , I don't know if that might be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . I think we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "uh , and {disfmarker} and into that node would be various {disfmarker} various things that {disfmarker} that could have specifically come up .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think a {disfmarker} a sort of general strategy here {disfmarker} You know , this is {disfmarker} this is excellent because {disfmarker} um it gets you thinking along these terms {disfmarker} is that maybe we ob we could observe a couple of um discourse phenomena such as the admission fee , and something else and something else , that happened in the discourse before .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} let 's make those four . And maybe there are two um {disfmarker} So maybe this could be sort of a separate region of the net , {pause} which has two {disfmarker} {pause} has it 's own middle layer . Maybe this , you know , has some {pause} kind {pause} of um , funky thing that di if this and this may influence these hidden nodes of the discourse which is maybe something that is uh , a more general version of the actual {pause} phenomenon that you can observe . So things that point towards {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So instead of single node , for {pause} like , if they said the word \" admission fee \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "\" admission fee \" , or maybe , you know , \" how much to enter \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or you know something , other cues .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Opening hours or something like that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly . That would all f funnel into one node that would {pause} constitute entrance requirements or something like that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So \" pay a visit \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "uh uh d", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean it sort of get into plan recognition kinds of things in the discourse . I mean that 's like the bigger um , version of it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly . Yeah ? And then maybe there are some discourse acts if they happened before , um it 's more for um a cue that the person actually wants to get somewhere else and that you are in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a route um , sort of proceeding past these things , so this would be just something that {disfmarker} where you want to pass it . Hmm ? Is that it ? However these are of course then the {disfmarker} the nodes , the observed nodes , for your middle layer . So this {pause} again points to \" final destination \" , \" doing business \" , \" tourist hurry \" and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah ? And so then we can say , \" OK . we have a whole {pause} region {disfmarker} \" {vocalsound} in a e", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's a whole set of discourse related cues to your middle layer .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly . And this is just {disfmarker} then just one .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So e because at the end the more we um {disfmarker} add , you know , the more spider - web - ish it 's going to become in the middle and the more of hand editing . It 's going to get very ugly . But with this way we could say \" OK , these are the {pause} discourse phenomena . They ra may have there own hidden layer {pause} that points to some of {pause} the {disfmarker} the real hidden layer , um or the general hidden layer .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And the same we will be able to do for syntactic information , the verbs used , the object types used , modifiers . And maybe there 's a hidden layer for that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so forth and so forth . Then we have context .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So essentially a lot of those nodes can be expanded into little Bayes - nets of their own .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Precisely . So .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One thing that 's kind of been bugging me when I {disfmarker} more I look at this is that the {disfmarker} I guess , the fact that the {disfmarker} there 's a complete separation between the {pause} observed features and in the output .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean , it makes it cleaner , but then uh {disfmarker} I mean .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For instance if the discourse does {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What do you mean by that ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well for instance , the \" discourse admission fee \" {pause} node seems like it should point directly to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or increase the probability of \" enter {pause} directly \" versus \" going there via tourist \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or we could like add more , uh , sort of middle nodes . Like we could add a node like do they want to enter it , which is affected by admission fee and by whether it 's closed and by whether it has a door .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it 's like {disfmarker} There are {disfmarker} Those are the two options . Either like make an arrow directly or put a new node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "that makes sense .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And if it {disfmarker} if you do it {disfmarker} If you could connect it too hard you may get such phenomenon that {disfmarker} like \" So how much has it cost to enter ? \" and the answer is two hundred fifty dollars , and then the persons says um \" Yeah I want to see it . \" Yeah ? meaning \" It 's way out of my budget \" um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "There are places in Germany where it costs two hundred fifty dollars to enter ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , nothing comes to mind . Without thinking too hard . Um , maybe , yeah of course , um opera premiers .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or any good old Pink Floyd concert .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I see . If you want to see \" The Magic Flute \" or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or maybe um , a famous restaurant . or , I don't know . There are various things that you might w not want to eat a {pause} meal there but {pause} your own table .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The Spagos of Heidelberg .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think that the h I mean nothing beats the {disfmarker} the admission charge prices in Japan . So there , two hundred dollars is {disfmarker} is moderate for getting into a discotheque . You know . Then again , everything else is free then once you 're ins in there .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Really .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Food and drink and so forth . So . I mean . But i you know , i we can {disfmarker} Something {disfmarker} Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and u the answer {pause} is s if we {disfmarker} um , you know , um {disfmarker} still , based on that result is never going to enter that building .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know ? Because it 's just too expensive .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I think I see . So the discourse refers to \" admission fee \" but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . you have to have some notion of not just {disfmarker} I mean there 's a {disfmarker} there 's change across several turns of discourse", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so {vocalsound} I don't know how {disfmarker} if any of this was discussed {disfmarker} but how i if it all this is going to interact with {vocalsound} whatever general {vocalsound} uh , other {disfmarker} other discourse processing that might be happen .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . {comment} {nonvocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What sort of discourse {pause} processing is uh {disfmarker} are the {disfmarker} How much is built into SmartKom and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It works like this . The uh , um {disfmarker} I mean . The first thing we get is that {pause} already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention , right ? simply by parsing it . And this um {disfmarker} m won't differentiate between all modes , yeah ? but at least it 'll tell us \" OK here we have something that {disfmarker} somebody that wants to go someplace , now it 's up for us to figure out what kind of going there is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} {pause} is happening , and um , if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything {disfmarker} all the information is needed , what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it 's handed on to the discourse history which is , um o one of the most elaborate {disfmarker} elaborate modules . It 's {disfmarker} it 's actually the {disfmarker} the whole memory of the entire system , that knows what {disfmarker} wh who said what , which was {disfmarker} what was presented . It helps an an anaphora resolution and it {disfmarker} and it fills in all the structures that are omitted , so , {pause} um , because you say \" OK , {pause} how can I get to the castle ? \" Oh , how {disfmarker} how much is it ? \" and um \" yeah I would like uh {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} to g let 's do it \" and so forth . So even without an a ana {pause} anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened . so {vocalsound} whenever the uh , um person is not actually rejecting what happened before , so as in \" No I really don't want to see that movie . I 'd rather stay home and watch TV \" um {disfmarker} What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is {disfmarker} is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step , by the discourse model {disfmarker} discourse {pause} model , Yeah , that 's what it 's called . and , um , it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues . So a person pointing to something on the screen , you know , the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a rather huge {vocalsound} {disfmarker} huge thing but um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} um {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} we can {pause} sort of {disfmarker} It has a very clear interface . We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and {disfmarker} and the turn before that or you know how {pause} deep we want to search", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} which is a question . How deep do we want to sear , you know ? Um {disfmarker} but we should {pause} try to keep in mind that , you know , we 're doing this sort of for research , so we {disfmarker} we should find a limit that 's reasonable and not go , you know , all the way back to Adam and Eve . You know , did that person ever discuss admissions fee {disfmarker} fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty {disfmarker} pretty you know {vocalsound} concise and {disfmarker} Anyway .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the {pause} use of \" admission fee discussion \" as a cue for entry , {vocalsound} {pause} is thinking about the plans that various people might have . Like all the different {vocalsound} sort of general schemas that they might be following OK . This person is um , finding out information about this thing in order to go {pause} in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place {pause} in order to do business . Um , because then {pause} anything that 's a cue for one of the steps {pause} would be slight evidence for that overall plan . Um , I don't know . They 're {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have {vocalsound} {pause} you know , some idea at each turn of agent doing something , \" OK , wha what plans is this a {disfmarker} consistent with ? \" and then get s some more information and then you see {pause} \" here 's a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into \" . It {disfmarker} it might be useful here too .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know how you know you 'd have to {vocalsound} {pause} figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} u u", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's in the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these plan schemas . I mean there are some {disfmarker} some of them are extremely elaborate , you know . \" What do you need {disfmarker} need to buy a ticket ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You know ? and it {disfmarker} it 's fifty steps ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "huh ? just for buying a ticket {pause} at a ticket counter , you know , and {disfmarker} and maybe that 's helpful to look at it {disfmarker} to look at those . It 's amazing what human beings can do . W when we talked uh we had the example , you know , of you being uh {disfmarker} a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands , says {vocalsound} New York and you say Track seven , huh ? And it 's because you know that that person actually is following , you know {disfmarker} You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps , you know , without any information other than \" New York \" , huh ? inferring everything from the context . So , works . Um , even though there is probably no train from here to New York , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mmm . Not direct .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You 'd uh probably have to transfer in Chicago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But uh {disfmarker} it 's possible . Um , no you probably have to transfer also somewhere else . Right ? Is that t San Francisco , Chicago ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is that possible ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One time I saw a report on trains , and I think there is a l I don't know if {disfmarker} I thought there was a line that went from somewhere , maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but there was like a California to Chicago line of some sort .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I could be wrong though . It was a while ago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The Transcontinental Railroad , doesn't that ring a bell ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but I don't know if it 's still {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think it has to exist somewhere .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "They might have blown it up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well it never went all the way , right ? I mean you always had to change trains at Omaha ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well most of the way .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? One track ended there and the other one started at {disfmarker} five meters away from that", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well . {pause} You seem to know better than we do so .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yeah ? Has anybody ever been on an Amtrak ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I have . But not transcontinentally .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'm frightened by Amtrak myself .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ? Why ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I just {disfmarker} They seem to have a lot of accidents on the Amtrak .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Their reputation is very bad .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "huh ? It 's not maybe reality .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's not like German trains . Like German trains are really great so .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} you know , I don't know whether it 's {disfmarker} which ones are safer , you know , statistically .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , but they 're faster .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Much faster . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And there 's much more of them . Yeah , they 're Yeah , it 's {pause} way better", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah I used {disfmarker} um Amtrak quite a bit on the east coast and I was surprised . It was actually OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You know , on Boston New York ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "New York Rhode Island ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "whatever ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 've done that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Boston .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} That 's {pause} a different issue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "This is going to be an interesting transcript .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I want to see what it does with uh \" landmark - iness \" . That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's all say it a few more times .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It 'd help it figure it out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Just kidding . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So by the way tha that structure {pause} that Robert drew on the board was like more um , {vocalsound} {pause} cue - type - based , right , here 's like we 're gonna {vocalsound} segment off a bit of stuff that comes from discourse and then {pause} some of the things we 're talking about here are more {disfmarker} you know , we mentioned maybe {pause} if they talk about {pause} um , I don't know , entering or som you know like they might be more task - based .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I don't know if there {disfmarker} There 's obviously some {disfmarker} m more than one way of organizing {pause} the variables into something", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think that um {disfmarker} What you guys did is really nicely sketching out different tasks , and maybe some of their conditions .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One task is more likely you 're in a hurry when you do that kind of s doing business ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and less in a hurry when uh {disfmarker} you 're a tourist Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} tourists may have {disfmarker} never have final destinations , you know because they are eternally traveling around so {vocalsound} maybe what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what happened {disfmarker} what might happen is that we do get this sort of task - based middle layer ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and then we 'll get these sub - middle layers , that are more cue - based .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . That feed into those ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Nah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Might be {disfmarker} might be a nice dichotomy of {disfmarker} of the world . So , um I suggest w to {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} to proceed with this in {disfmarker} in the sense that {pause} maybe throughout this week the three of us will {disfmarker} will talk some more about maybe segmenting off different regions , and we make up some {disfmarker} {pause} some toy a observable \" nodes \" {disfmarker} is that what th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Refined y re just refine the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What 's the technical term ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . For which ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For the uh {disfmarker} nodes that are observable ? The \" outer layer \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Just observable nodes ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The features ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "evidence nodes ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know , whatever you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Feature ma make up some features for those {disfmarker} Identify {pause} four regions ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "maybe make up some features for each region and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uh , uh {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} middle layer for those . And then these should then connect somehow to the more plan - based deep space", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Basically just refine {pause} some of the more general nodes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep . The - they {disfmarker} they will be aud ad - hoc for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for some time to come .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is totally like {disfmarker} The probabilities and all are completely ad - hoc . We need to look at all of them . I mean but , they 're even like {vocalsound} {pause} I mean like , close to the end we were like , uh , you know we were like uh {vocalsound} really ad - hoc .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's a even distribution . Like , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right ? Cuz if it 's like , uh {disfmarker} If it 's four things coming in , right ? And , say , some of them have like three possibilities and all that . So you 're thinking like {disfmarker} like a hundred and forty four or something {pause} possible things {disfmarker} numbers to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} That 's terrible .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Some of them are completely absurd too , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want to enter , but it 's closed ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's night time , you know there are tourists and all this weird stuff happens at the line up and you 're like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , the only like possible interpretation is that they are like {disfmarker} come here just to rob the museum or {pause} something to that effect .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "confused .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "In which case you 're supposed to alert the authorities , {vocalsound} and see appropriate action .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , another thing to do , um , is also to , um {disfmarker} I guess to ask around people about other Bayes - net packages . Is Srini gonna be {pause} at the meeting tomorrow , do you know ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The day after tomorrow .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Wait {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Quite possibly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Wednesday .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Day after tomorrow .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , oh , sorry .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sorry , Wednesday ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Who 's talking on Wednesday ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Maybe we can ask him about it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I haven't {disfmarker} J Jerry never sent out a {disfmarker} sent out an email , did he , ever ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . But he mentioned at the last meeting that someone was going to be talking , I forget who .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , isn't Ben ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ben ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ben , then ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think it 's Ben actually ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ben .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "yeah , um , giving his job talk I think . um , Sorry . I was just reading the screen .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So the uh {disfmarker} That will be one {disfmarker} one thing we could do . I actually uh , have {disfmarker} Um , also we can uh , start looking at the SmartKom tables and I will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I actually wanted to show that {pause} to you guys now but um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Do you want to {pause} trade ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , no I {disfmarker} I actually made a mistake because it {disfmarker} it fell asleep and when Linux falls asleep on my machine it 's {disfmarker} it doesn't wake up ever , so I had to reboot", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , no .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And if I reboot without a network , I will not be able to start SmartKom , because I need to have a network .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So we 'll do that t maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But . OK . But once you start {disfmarker} sart start SmartKom you can be on {disfmarker} You don't have to be on a network anymore . Is that the deal ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah , interesting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why does SmartKom need a network ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it looks up some stuff that , {pause} you know , is {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} is in the {disfmarker} written by the operating system only if it {disfmarker} if you get a DHCP request , so it {disfmarker} you know , my computer does not know its IP address , you know ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know . So . Unless it boots up with networking .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's plugged in . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And I don't have an IP address , they can't look up {disfmarker} they don't know who localhost is , and so forth and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Always fun . But it 's a , um , simple solution . We can just um , go downstairs and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and look at this , but maybe not today . The other thing um {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} oh yeah , OK , I have to report {vocalsound} um , data collection . We interviewed Fey ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "She 's willing to do it , meaning be the wizard for the data collection , also {vocalsound} maybe transcribe a little bit , if she has to , but also recruiting subjects , organizing them , and so forth . So that looks good . Jerry however suggested that we should uh have a trial run with her , see whether she can actually do all the uh spontaneous , eloquent and creativeness that we uh expect of the wizard . And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So who would be the subject {pause} of this trial run ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Pardon me ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Who {disfmarker} Will there be a {disfmarker} Is one {disfmarker} Is you {disfmarker} one of you gonna be the subject ? Like are you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um Liz also volunteered to be the first subject , {vocalsound} which I think might be even better than us guys .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One of us , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "If we do need her for the technical stuff , then of course one of you has to sort of uh {disfmarker} jump in .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I like how we 've {disfmarker} you guys have successfully narrowed it down . \" Is one of you going to be the subject ? \" Is one of you {disfmarker} jump in .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Reference . I haven't done it yet .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well I just figured it has to be someone who 's , um , familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard , so we can , uh , see if they 're you know good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh plants ? e u someone who can plant difficult things .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean that 's what we wanna {pause} check , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , in this case it 's a p it 's a {pause} sort of testing of the wizard rather than of the subject .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Isn't that what it is ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yes w we {disfmarker} we would like to test the wizard , but {vocalsound} you know , if we take a subject that is completely unfamiliar with the task , or any of the set up , we get a more realistic", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I guess that would be reasonable .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know , set up as {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know . That 's probably a good enough test of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sort of having an actively antagonistic , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . That might be a little unfair . Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 'm sure if we uh , {disfmarker} You think there 's a chance we might need Liz for , whatever , the technical side of things ? I 'm sure we can get {pause} other people around who don't know anything {pause} um , if we want another subject .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You know . Like I can drag Ben into it or something . Although he might cause problems but . So , is it a experimental setup for the um , data collection {pause} totally {pause} ready {disfmarker} determined ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I like that . \" Test the wizard . \" I want that on a T - shirt .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} experimental setup u on the technical issue yes , except we st I think we still need uh {disfmarker} a recording device for the wizard , just a tape recorder that 's running in a room .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} in terms of specifying the scenario , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} we 've gotten a little further", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but um {disfmarker} we wanted to wait until we know who is the wizard , and have the wizard partake in the {pause} ultimate {pause} sort of definition probe . So {disfmarker} so if {disfmarker} if on Friday it turns out that she really likes it and {disfmarker} and we really like her , then nothing should stop us from sitting down next week and {vocalsound} {comment} getting all the details completely figured out .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So the ideal task um , {pause} will have {pause} whatever I don't know how much the structure of the evolving Bayes - net {vocalsound} {pause} will af affect {disfmarker} Like we wanna {disfmarker} we wanna be able to collect {vocalsound} as much of the variables that are needed for that ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm - yea - some .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? in the course of the task ? Well not all of them but you know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Bu - e e e I 'm even {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this Tango , Enter , Vista is sort of , itself , an ad - hoc scenario .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the basic u um idea behind the uh {pause} data collection was the following . The data we get from Munich is {pause} very command line , simple linguistic stuff .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hardly anything complicated . No metaphors whatsoever .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Not a rich language . So we wanted just to collect data , to get {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {pause} elicits more , uh , that elicits richer language .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And we actually did not want to constrain it too much ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know ? Just see what people say . And then maybe we 'll discover the phenomenon {disfmarker} the phenomena that we want to solve , you know , with {pause} whatever engine we {disfmarker} we come up with . Um . So this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is a parallel track , you know , there {disfmarker} they hopefully meet ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So in other words this data collection is {pause} more general .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but since {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It could {disfmarker} it could {pause} be used for not just this task .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It should tell us , you know , what kind of phenomenon could occur , it should tell us also maybe something about the difference between people who think they speak to a computer versus people who think they speak to a human being", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and the sort of differences there . So it may get us some more information on the human - machine pragmatics , um , that no one knows anything about , as of yesterday . And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} nothing has changed {comment} since then , so . Uh . And secondly , now that of course we have sort of started to lick blood with this , and especially since um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Johno can't stop Tango - ing , {vocalsound} we may actually include , you know , those {disfmarker} those intentions . So now I think we should maybe have at least one navigational task with {disfmarker} with sort of explicit {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "not ex it 's implicit that the person wants to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and maybe some task where it 's more or less explicit that the person wants to take a picture ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or see it or something . So that we can label it . I mean , that 's how we get a corpus that we can label .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Whereas , you know , if we 'd just get data we 'd never know what they actually wanted , we 'd get no cues . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Alrighty .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That was that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So is this the official end of the meeting now ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Looks like it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So what 's \" Economics , the fallacy \" ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ma", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I just randomly {pause} label things . So that has nothing to do with economics or anything .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , really ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe we ought to switch off these things before we continue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Switching o", "speaker": "Grad D" } ]

[ { "content": "Nice .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "to {disfmarker} to handle .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is that good ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , I 've have never handled them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Goats eat cans , to my understanding . Tin cans .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Did we need to do these things ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Could I hit {disfmarker} hit F - seven to do that ? on the {disfmarker} Robert ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , the remote will do it OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Cuz I 'm already up there ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "in control here .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You are in control . Already ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wow , we 're all so high tech here . Yet another p PowerPoint presentation .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} Well it makes it easier {pause} to do", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Certainly does .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So , {pause} we were {disfmarker} Ah !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Johno , where are you ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So , Let 's see . Which one of these buttons will do this for me ? Aha ! OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Should you go back to the first one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Do I wanna go back to the first one ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , {pause} just to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Introduce .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , um {vocalsound} Well , \" the search for the middle layer \" . It 's basically uh talks about uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It just refers to the fact that uh {pause} one of main things we had to do was to {pause} decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I can read ! I 'm kidding .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know , because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to {pause} click on the little {pause} light bulb .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Although I 've {disfmarker} I 've never {disfmarker} I don't know what the light bulb is for . I didn't i install that into my {pause} PowerPoint presentation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Do you wanna try ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ach u", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'd prefer not to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Continue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's a needless good idea . Is that the idea ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh ! OK . Of course . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and then {pause} if I do that it 'll mess everything up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I was wondering .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Is that OK ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Can you maximize the window ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Proceed .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You want me to {disfmarker} Wait , what do you want me to do ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't {disfmarker} doesn't appear ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , It 's OK . It 's {disfmarker} It 'll work .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , fine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Here , let 's see if I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Very nice .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Is that better ? OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I 'll also get rid of this \" Click to add notes \" . OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Perfect .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So then the features we decided {disfmarker} or we decided we were {disfmarker} talked about , right ? Uh the {disfmarker} the prosody , the discourse , {pause} verb choice . You know . We had a list of things like \" to go \" and \" to visit \" and what not . The \" landmark - iness \" of uh {disfmarker} I knew you 'd like that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Nice coinage .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Thank you . uh , of a {disfmarker} of a building . Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line {pause} for space . \" Nice walls \" {vocalsound} which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna {pause} get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it . And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls . The context , which in this case we 've limited to {pause} \" business person \" , \" tourist \" , or {pause} \" unknown \" , the time of day , and \" open to suggestions \" , isn't actually a feature . It 's {pause} \" We are open to suggestions . \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that {vocalsound} uh , in this particular domain {disfmarker} you said {disfmarker} be {disfmarker} i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the {disfmarker} that landmark - iness cor is correlated with", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . We have a separate", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "They 're separate things .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "feature .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "their being nice w", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I either could put \" nice walls \" on its own line or \" open to suggestions \" off the slide .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like you could have a p", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} By \" nice \" you mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} Like you could have a post office with uh {disfmarker} you know , nice murals or something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or one time I was at this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So \" nice walls \" is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh {disfmarker} significant", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But see the thing is , if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Architecturally appealing from the outside .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "or something like that . OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from {disfmarker} Like you m might be able to \" Vista \" it ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? And be able to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Appreciate it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I don't remember w", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It was a long time ago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "There 's a lot of those .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But if you looked at it real close , you could see the {disfmarker} the in intricacy of the {disfmarker} of the walls .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So that count as {disfmarker} counts as a nice wall .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} OK . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Something you want to inspect at close range {pause} because it 's interesting .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Robert ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well there {disfmarker} there is a term {pause} that 's often used . That 's \" saliency \" , or the \" salience \" of an object . And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as \" landmark - iness \" . But it 's really not . I mean an object can be very salient", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but not a landmark at all .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Not a landmark at all . There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . but you can imagine maybe wanting the oth both kinds of things there for different um , goals .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be {disfmarker} Wouldn't {disfmarker} couldn't they also be {disfmarker} They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like {pause} non - tourist - y landmarks and", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or it can be als", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "direct navigational {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "They 're not mutually exclusive ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . Definitely .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying , {pause} because {disfmarker} uh our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , a big flat structure .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And uh , so we {disfmarker} Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that . If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped . I don't know belief - nets very well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well usually , I mean , you know , N {disfmarker} If you have N features , then it 's two to the N {disfmarker} {pause} or exponential in N .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And they wouldn't look pretty . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh . So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was {vocalsound} we have the features that we 've drawn {pause} from the communication of some {disfmarker} Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like \" I 'm {disfmarker} \" the {disfmarker} the abstract idea being \" I am a tourist I want to go {pause} to this place . \" Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and {pause} what they 've said previously and whatnot . And then we have {pause} the means {vocalsound} that they should use . Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist {pause} or {pause} whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines . Or {disfmarker} Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the {disfmarker} from the data , the hidden variables . Yes , good . So then the hidden variables {disfmarker} hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} or th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Want to do Vista ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ? Because {pause} if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a {disfmarker} like a {pause} navigational point to go to another place .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed . Those are all {disfmarker} And then \" Let 's look at the belief - net \" {comment} OK . So that means that I should switch to the {pause} other program . Um right now it 's still kind of {pause} in a toy {pause} version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of {disfmarker} {pause} or {disfmarker} Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No one knows it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So this right {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker} Let 's see . What happens if I maximize this ? There we go . But uh {disfmarker} So . The mode {pause} basically has three different {pause} outputs . The probability {disfmarker} whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter . Um {disfmarker} The \" context \" , we simplified . Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown . \" Verb used \" is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's {disfmarker} it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a {pause} Vista verb .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that one needs a lot of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And are those mutually exclusive sets ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Not at all . That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that needs a lot of work .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {vocalsound} {pause} that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Got it . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so we decided that for the purposes of this {pause} it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Simple .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Stab at it . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Um {disfmarker} Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} that are not coming to my mind right now .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the {disfmarker} sort of , the things that are not directly extracted . Actually , the five things . The \" closed \" is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well i it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "From the {pause} utterance ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's so it sort of is", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Actually , no , wait .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} because have the {disfmarker} the time of day", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It is . OK , \" closed \" sort of is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and the close it just had the {disfmarker} er and what time it closed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker} you know probabilistically depends on the other things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Inferred from the other ones ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} {pause} the actual parse is somewhere up around in here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . So we haven't uh , managed {disfmarker} Like we don't have nodes for \" discourse \" and \" parse \" , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So some of the {disfmarker} the top row of things {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker} what 's \" Disc admission fee \" ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "whether they discuss the admission fees . So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like {vocalsound} \" Can I get to this place ? \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "\" What is the admission fee ? \" . So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "There were {disfmarker} there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but {pause} you know , {pause} we didn't have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That was like our example .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That was the {pause} initial one that we found .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So there are certain cues that are very strong {pause} either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "From the discourse that {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "for one of those . And then in that second row {pause} or whatever that row of Time of Day through that {disfmarker} So all of those {disfmarker} Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of {vocalsound} either world knowledge or situational {pause} things .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One , uh {disfmarker} Uh . {vocalsound} Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Unmark @ @ Time of Day \"", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I m I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . They 're {disfmarker} they 're are a couple of more things .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One thing {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean Uh . I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we {disfmarker} we all uh , agree on what {disfmarker} what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe {vocalsound} what changes we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , th OK . so one thing I {disfmarker} I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh {disfmarker} the \" admission fee \" thing set up . So one {pause} thing that we were thinking was {vocalsound} by doing the layers like this , Uh {disfmarker} we kept um {disfmarker} things from directly affecting the mode {pause} beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the \" admission fee \" going directly to the mode pointing at \" Enter \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? Versus pointing to just at \" tourist \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted {pause} to point at the middle and then {pause} down .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Why is the landmark {disfmarker} OK . The landmark is facing to the tourists . That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Navigational landmarks ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Navigational cue .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "navigational landmarks", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so Mm - hmm . Then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would be {pause} whatever building they referred to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Prosody .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . So let 's see . The variables .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Disc - \" admission fee \" is a binary thing , \" time of day \" is like morning , afternoon , night . Is that the deal ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's how we have it currently set up ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but it could be , {pause} you know , based upon hour", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Whatever granularity .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or {pause} dis we could discrete it {disfmarker} des descret - ize it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but um , we are just using the particular {vocalsound} part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So that 's given in their input .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Right ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so it 's not really all of context . Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply {vocalsound} for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . that 's very nice , huh ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or also unknown ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or un {pause} unknown ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Unknown , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Which is th Which one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but OK . so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , \" are you {disfmarker} \" I mean the {disfmarker} ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , it does .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So then you just have some probabilities over {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Everything is probablistic , and {disfmarker} There 's always {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . {disfmarker} over which which of those it is .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , right . So then landmark is {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . \" Verb used \" is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Rather , let me rephrase that . It {disfmarker} it can take values {vocalsound} in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um \" nice walls \" is binary , \" closed \" is binary \" final destination \" , again {disfmarker} Yeah , all those are binary I guess . And \" mode \" is one of three things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the middle layer is also binary ? No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh . It {disfmarker} Yeah . But all those things without question marks are also binary . Right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Which things ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Nice walls ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Wi", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh . \" Nice walls \" is uh {disfmarker} something that we extract from our world knowledge .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , a Oh yeah . Sorry . It is binary .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's true . Yeah . OK , I see your point .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I gotcha .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , similarly \" closed \" , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , we To do that we would add another uh {disfmarker} value for that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And that would require s updating the probability distribution for \" mode \" as well .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Because it would now have to like uh {disfmarker} take that possibility into account .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Take a conti", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would {disfmarker} that would help you {disfmarker} Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that {disfmarker} that would {vocalsound} {pause} determine {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Other syntactic information you mean ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of the landmark is {disfmarker} is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Usually . I {disfmarker} I don't know if that 's always the case I {disfmarker} I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have . So . Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "that 's always warping on something {disfmarker} some entity ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and um {disfmarker} Uh maybe at this stage we will {disfmarker} we do want to {disfmarker} uh sort of get {disfmarker} uh modifiers in there", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I want to get to the church quickly ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That would be a cue .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "what 's the fastest way", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , correct .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Um . OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Excellent . Do we have anything else to say about this ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We can do a little demo .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh the Yeah , we could . But the demo doesn't work very well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} We can do a demo in the sense that we can um , {vocalsound} just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Observe nodes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Go ahead .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK . Dat - dat - dah . What should I observe ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Just se set a few of them . You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time . Just like uh , {vocalsound} maybe the fact that they use a certain verb {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Actually forget the verb .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "just uh {disfmarker} I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the place has nice walls", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and it 's night .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "it 's starting to grow on me", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And the time of day is night ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , no wait . That {disfmarker} that doesn't uh {disfmarker} it 's not really consistent . They don't discuss the admission fee . Make that false .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And it 's night .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , they {disfmarker} OK . Oh whoops . I forgot to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That didn't work .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ach !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd like to do that again .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . That seems kind of redundant but .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That all you want ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So let 's see . I want {pause} to query ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" Go \" and , right , \" query \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ? the mode . OK , and then on here {disfmarker} So let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So that {pause} is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So slightly {pause} biased {pause} toward \" Tango \" ing", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "If it 's night time , {pause} they have not discussed admission fee , and the n walls are nice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So , yeah . I guess that {pause} sort of makes sense . The reason I say the {pause} demo doesn't work very well is yesterday we uh {disfmarker} {pause} observed everything in favor of {pause} taking a tour , and it came up as \" Tango \" , right ? Over and over again . We couldn't {disfmarker} we couldn't figure out how to turn it off of \" Tango \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It loves the Tango .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Huh ! Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , that 's obviously just to do with our probabilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like , {pause} we totally hand - tuned the probabilities ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right . We were like {vocalsound} \" hmm , well if the person does this and this and this , let 's say forty percent for this ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "fifty per \" Like , you know . So obviously that 's gonna happen .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Maybe the bias toward \" Tango \" ing was yours , then ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "that 's {disfmarker} that 's at {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} So we have to like fit the probabilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Spent my youth practicing the tango de la muerte .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , the real case ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "However you know , it {disfmarker} The purpose was not really , at this stage , to come up with meaningful probabilities but to get thinking about that hidden middle layer . And so th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We would actually {disfmarker} I guess once we look at the data more we 'll get more hidden {pause} nodes ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I 'd like to see more . Not because it would {pause} expedite the probabilities , cuz it wouldn't . It would actually slow that down tremendously .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . Well , yeah , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Not that much though . Only a little early .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I think we should have uh {disfmarker} exponentially more {pause} middle nodes than features we 've extracted . I 'm ju I 'm just jo", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . Are \" doing business \" versus \" tourist \" {disfmarker} They refer to your current task . Like {disfmarker} like current thing you want to do at this moment .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker} that 's an interesting point . Whether you 're {disfmarker} It 's whether {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And are th", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think it 's more like \" Are you are tourist ? are you in Ham - like Heidelberg for a {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , so , I thought that was directly given by the context {pause} switch .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's a different thing . What if the context , which is not set , but still they say things like , \" I want to go {pause} uh , see the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the castle and uh , et cetera . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well the I kind of {pause} thought of \" doing business \" as more of running an errand type thing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Business on the other hand is , uh , definitely what you 're doing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So if you run out of cash as a tourist , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you need to go to the AT", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So {pause} i wi th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , I see , you may have a task . wh you have to go get money and so you are doing business at that stage .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" How do I get to the bank ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I see . Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And that 'll affect whether you want to enter or you if you {disfmarker} kinda thing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So the \" tourists \" node {pause} should be {pause} um , very consistent with the context node . Right ? If you say that 's more their {disfmarker} in general what their background is .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think this context node is a bit of a {disfmarker} I don't know , like in d Uh {disfmarker} Do we {pause} wanna have {disfmarker} Like it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are you assuming that or not ? Like is that to be {disfmarker} I mean if that 's accurate then that would determine tourist node .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If the context were to set one way or another , that like strongly uh um , says something about whether {disfmarker} whether or not they 're tourists .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So what 's interesting is when it 's not {disfmarker} when it 's set to \" unknown \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "We - what set the {disfmarker} they set the context to \" unknown \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right now we haven't observed it , so I guess it 's sort of averaging over all those three possibilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But yes , you can set it to un \" unknown \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And if we now do {disfmarker} leave everything else as is the results should be the same ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well no , because we {disfmarker} Th - the way we set the probabilities {vocalsound} might not have {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's an {disfmarker} it 's an issue , right ? Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Pretty much the same ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is . So the issue is that um in belief - nets , it 's not common to do what we did of like having , you know , a d bunch of values and then \" unknown \" as an actual value . What 's common is you just like don't observe the variable ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right , and then just marginalizes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We didn't do this because we felt that there 'd {disfmarker} I guess we were thinking in terms of a switch that actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We were thi Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We were th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} I don't know y what the right thing is to do for that . I 'm not {disfmarker} I don't know if I totally am happy with {vocalsound} the way it is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why don't we {disfmarker} Can we , um {disfmarker} How long would it take to {disfmarker} to add another {pause} node on the observatory and , um , play around with it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Another node on what ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , well it depends on how many things it 's linked to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's just say make it really simple . If we create {pause} something that for example would be um {disfmarker} So th some things can be landmarks in your sense but {pause} they {pause} can never be entered ? So for example s a statue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Good point .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So {pause} maybe we wanna have \" landmark \" {pause} meaning now \" enterable landmark \" versus , um something that 's simply just a vista point , for example .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah ? uh , a statue or um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So basically it 's addressing a variable that 's \" enterable or not \" . So like an \" enterable , question mark \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Also {disfmarker} {pause} you know , didn't we have a {pause} size as one ? The size of the landmark .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . Not when we were doing this ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but I guess at some point we did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For some reason I had that {disfmarker} OK , that was a thought that I had at one point but then went away .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you want to have a {disfmarker} a node for like whether or not it can be entered ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , for example , if we include that , yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "um , accessibility or something , yeah ? \" Is it {disfmarker} Can it be entered ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "then of course , this is {pause} sort of binary as well .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And then um , there 's also the question whether it may be entered . In the sense that , you know , if it 's {pause} Tom {disfmarker} the house of Tom Cruise , you know , it 's enterable but you may not enter it . You know ? You 're not allowed to .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Unless you are , whatever , his {disfmarker} his divorce lawyer or something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ? and um {disfmarker} And these are very observable sort of from the {disfmarker} from the ontology sort of things .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Way Does it actually help to distinguish between those two cases though ? Whether it 's practically speaking enterable , or actually physically enterable {pause} or not ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "y y If {disfmarker} If you 're running an errand you maybe more likely to be able to enter places that are usually not {vocalsound} al w you 're not usually {disfmarker} not allowed to uh m", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It seems like it would for uh , uh {pause} determining whether they wanna go into it or not .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well I can see why {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Cuz they {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Let 's get this uh b clearer . S so it 's matrix between if it 's not enterable , period .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Whether it 's a {disfmarker} Whether it 's a public building , and whether it 's {disfmarker} actually has a door .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "This is sort of uh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So Tom Cruise 's house is {pause} not a public building", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but it has a door . But the thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , sh explain to me why it 's necessary {pause} to distinguish between whether something has a door and is {pause} not public . Or , if something {disfmarker} It seems like it 's equivalent to say that it doesn't have a door a {pause} and it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or \" not public \" and \" not a door \" are equivalent things ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it seems like in practice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah . So we would have {disfmarker} What does it mean , then , that we have to {disfmarker} we have an object type statue . That really is an object type . So there is {disfmarker} there 's gonna be a bunch of statues .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And then we have , for example , an object type , {pause} hmm , that 's a hotel . How about hotels ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , the most famous building in Heidelberg is actually a hotel . It 's the hotel Zum Ritter , which is the only Renaissance building in Heidelberg that was left after {pause} the big destruction and for the Thirty Years War , blah - blah - blah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Does it have nice walls ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It has wonderful walls . Um - And lots of detail , c and carvings , engravings and so forth ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Excellent .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so . But , um , it 's still an unlikely candidate for the Tango mode I {pause} must say . But . Um . So {disfmarker} s So if you are a d Well it 's very tricky . So I guess your question is {disfmarker} so far I have no really arg no real argument why to differentiate between statues as {disfmarker} statues and houses of celebrities , from that point of view . Huh . OK . Let {disfmarker} Let 's do a {disfmarker} Can we add , just so I can see how it 's done , uh , a \" has door \" {pause} property or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What would it , uh , connect to ? Like , what would , uh , it affect ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , I think , um , it might affect {disfmarker} Oh actually it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it wouldn't affect any of our nodes , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "What I was thinking was if you had a {disfmarker} like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh it 's {disfmarker} it affects th The \" doing business \" is certainly not .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You could affect {disfmarker} {pause} Theoretically you could affect \" doing business \" with \" has door \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It should , um , inhibit that ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know if JavaBayes is nice about that . It might be that if you add a new thing pointing to a variable , you just like {disfmarker} it just overwrites everything . But {pause} you can check .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , {pause} we have it saved . So . {vocalsound} We can rel open it up again .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . It 's true .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The {pause} safety net .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think you could just add it . I mean , I have before OK . Whew !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well that 's fine , but we have to see the function now . Has it become all point fives or not ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Let 's see . So this is \" has door \" Uh , true , false . That 's acceptable . And I want to edit the function going to that , right ? Oh no .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . This is fine ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . It was fine .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "this business .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "added this one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What would be nice if it {disfmarker} is if it just like kept the old function for either value but . Nope . Didn't {pause} do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh wait , it might be {disfmarker} Did we w Yes , that 's not good .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's {pause} kind of annoying .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , so just dis dismiss everything . Close it and {disfmarker} and load up the old state so {pause} it doesn't screw {disfmarker} screw that up .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Let 's see . Oops .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe you can read in ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ha - So have you used JavaBayes a lot ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yes . Really {vocalsound} I ha I 've {disfmarker} I haven't used it a lot and I haven't used it in the last you know many months so", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "um , uh , we can ask someone .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It might be worth uh {disfmarker} asking around .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Like , we looked at sort of uh {disfmarker} a page that had like a bunch of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Srini {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , S I guess he 'd be the person .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Srini 's the one to ask I would say .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um . He might know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean in a way this is a lot of good features in Java it 's cra has a GUI and it 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I guess those are the main two things . It does learning , it has {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No it doesn't , actually .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I didn't think it did learning .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe it did a little bit of learning ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't remember .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh right . Maybe you 're right . OK . Right . But uh {disfmarker} it 's free .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Which is w quite positive , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But uh , yeah . Maybe another thing that uh {disfmarker} But I mean its interface is not the greatest . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But actually it had an interface .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "A lot of them were like , you know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Command line .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What is the c code ? Can w can we see that ? How do you write the code", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The c", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "or do you actually never have to write any code there ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . There is actually a text file that you can edit . But it 's {disfmarker} You don't have to do that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's like an XML format for {pause} Bayes - nets .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is it XML ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The - there is one . I don't know if this uses it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . No this doesn't use it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I didn't think it did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You can look at the text file .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But do you have it here ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , yes I do actually .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , maybe you don't .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let me see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yes , of course .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh man ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like , there 's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I didn't n {pause} Is there an ampersand in DOS ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Nope . Just s l start up a new DOS .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We - That 's alright . I can probably double cli click on it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "n uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's see , come on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 'll ask you what you {disfmarker} what it wants {disfmarker} what you want to open it with and see what BAT , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "One of these days , it should open this , theoretically .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Go {disfmarker} Right mouse . Open with .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh there we go .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} Oh !", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe it was just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh ! W Ah , it was dead . To the world .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "God !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Through the old Notepad . That 's my favorite editor .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I like {disfmarker} I like Word Pad because it has the uh {disfmarker} the returns ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wordpad ? I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "the carriage returns on some of them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You know how they get \" auto - fills \" I guess ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mmm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or whatever you call it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Anyway , there it is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So this is sort of LISP - y ? No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It just basically looks like it just specifies a bunch of", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's how actual probability tables are specified .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "As , like , lists of numbers .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So theoretically you could edit that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It just that {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {pause} they 're not very friendly .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah the ordering isn't very clear on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you 'd have to like figure out {disfmarker} Like you have to go and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . The layout {pause} of the table .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Actually we could write a program that could generate this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah you could .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You could .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We were doing it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah we can maybe write an interface th for uh entering probability distributions easily , something like {disfmarker} like a little script . That might {vocalsound} be worth it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And that might do .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I actually seem to recall Srini complaining about something to do with Entering probability so this is probably", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The other thing is it is in Java", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We could {pause} manipulate the source {pause} itself ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Do you have the true source files or just the class ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I don't know if he actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . we do", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Does he {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I saw directory called \" source \" ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I didn't e", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} Yeah . Go up one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Up one . Ah yes , good .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Source \" . That 's {disfmarker} that 's quite nice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I don't know if it actually manipulate the source , though . That might be a bit complicated .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think it might {disfmarker} it might be simpler to just {pause} have a script that , you know {disfmarker} It 's , like , friendly ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The d the data tables .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it allows you enter things well .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But if th if there is an XML {pause} file that {disfmarker} or format that it can also read {disfmarker} I mean it just reads this , right ? When it starts .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah I know there is an {disfmarker} I was looking on the we web page and he 's updated it for an XML version of I guess Bayes - nets . There 's a Bayes - net spec for {disfmarker} in XML .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "He 's {disfmarker} Like this guy has ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The JavaBayes guy ? So {disfmarker} but , e he doesn't use it . So in what sense has he updated it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well th you can either {disfmarker} you ca or you can read both .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh . I see .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "To my understanding .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . That would be awesome .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Because uh {disfmarker} Well at least the {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I could have misread the web page , I have a habit of doing that , but .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , wonderful .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So you got more slides ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Do I have more slides ? Um yes , one more . \" Future Work \" . I think every presentation have a should have a \" Future Work \" slide . But uh it 's basically {disfmarker} we already talked about all this stuff , so .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . The additional thing is I guess learning the probabilities , {pause} also . E That 's maybe , I don't know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh that 's future future work .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Does {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Very future .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And of course if you have a presentation that doesn't {disfmarker} have something that doesn't work at all , then you have \" What I learned \" , as a slide .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Can't you have both ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You could . My first approach failed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What I learned . OK , so I think that uh our presentation 's finished .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I know what I like about these meetings is one person will nod , and then the next person will nod , and then it just goes all the way around the room .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So the uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I missed my turn .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No I {disfmarker} Earlier I went {nonvocalsound} and Bhaskara went {nonvocalsound} and you did it . You did it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's like yawning .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's like yawning .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And this announcement was in stereo .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ha .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So this means um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Should I pull up the {pause} net again ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Could you put the {disfmarker} the um , net up again ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yes . There we go .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And actually I was {disfmarker} cuz I got a wireless mike on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So a more general thing than \" discussed admission fee \" um , could be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering whether the context , the background context of the discourse {vocalsound} might be {disfmarker} I don't know , if there 's a way to define it or maybe you know generalize it some way um , there might be other cues that , say , um , in the last few utterances there has been something that has strongly associated with say one of the particular modes uh , I don't know if that might be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . I think we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "uh , and {disfmarker} and into that node would be various {disfmarker} various things that {disfmarker} that could have specifically come up .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think a {disfmarker} a sort of general strategy here {disfmarker} You know , this is {disfmarker} this is excellent because {disfmarker} um it gets you thinking along these terms {disfmarker} is that maybe we ob we could observe a couple of um discourse phenomena such as the admission fee , and something else and something else , that happened in the discourse before .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} let 's make those four . And maybe there are two um {disfmarker} So maybe this could be sort of a separate region of the net , {pause} which has two {disfmarker} {pause} has it 's own middle layer . Maybe this , you know , has some {pause} kind {pause} of um , funky thing that di if this and this may influence these hidden nodes of the discourse which is maybe something that is uh , a more general version of the actual {pause} phenomenon that you can observe . So things that point towards {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So instead of single node , for {pause} like , if they said the word \" admission fee \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "\" admission fee \" , or maybe , you know , \" how much to enter \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or you know something , other cues .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Opening hours or something like that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly . That would all f funnel into one node that would {pause} constitute entrance requirements or something like that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So \" pay a visit \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "uh uh d", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean it sort of get into plan recognition kinds of things in the discourse . I mean that 's like the bigger um , version of it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly . Yeah ? And then maybe there are some discourse acts if they happened before , um it 's more for um a cue that the person actually wants to get somewhere else and that you are in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a route um , sort of proceeding past these things , so this would be just something that {disfmarker} where you want to pass it . Hmm ? Is that it ? However these are of course then the {disfmarker} the nodes , the observed nodes , for your middle layer . So this {pause} again points to \" final destination \" , \" doing business \" , \" tourist hurry \" and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah ? And so then we can say , \" OK . we have a whole {pause} region {disfmarker} \" {vocalsound} in a e", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's a whole set of discourse related cues to your middle layer .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly . And this is just {disfmarker} then just one .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So e because at the end the more we um {disfmarker} add , you know , the more spider - web - ish it 's going to become in the middle and the more of hand editing . It 's going to get very ugly . But with this way we could say \" OK , these are the {pause} discourse phenomena . They ra may have there own hidden layer {pause} that points to some of {pause} the {disfmarker} the real hidden layer , um or the general hidden layer .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And the same we will be able to do for syntactic information , the verbs used , the object types used , modifiers . And maybe there 's a hidden layer for that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so forth and so forth . Then we have context .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So essentially a lot of those nodes can be expanded into little Bayes - nets of their own .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Precisely . So .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One thing that 's kind of been bugging me when I {disfmarker} more I look at this is that the {disfmarker} I guess , the fact that the {disfmarker} there 's a complete separation between the {pause} observed features and in the output .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean , it makes it cleaner , but then uh {disfmarker} I mean .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For instance if the discourse does {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What do you mean by that ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well for instance , the \" discourse admission fee \" {pause} node seems like it should point directly to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or increase the probability of \" enter {pause} directly \" versus \" going there via tourist \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or we could like add more , uh , sort of middle nodes . Like we could add a node like do they want to enter it , which is affected by admission fee and by whether it 's closed and by whether it has a door .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it 's like {disfmarker} There are {disfmarker} Those are the two options . Either like make an arrow directly or put a new node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "that makes sense .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And if it {disfmarker} if you do it {disfmarker} If you could connect it too hard you may get such phenomenon that {disfmarker} like \" So how much has it cost to enter ? \" and the answer is two hundred fifty dollars , and then the persons says um \" Yeah I want to see it . \" Yeah ? meaning \" It 's way out of my budget \" um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "There are places in Germany where it costs two hundred fifty dollars to enter ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , nothing comes to mind . Without thinking too hard . Um , maybe , yeah of course , um opera premiers .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or any good old Pink Floyd concert .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I see . If you want to see \" The Magic Flute \" or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or maybe um , a famous restaurant . or , I don't know . There are various things that you might w not want to eat a {pause} meal there but {pause} your own table .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The Spagos of Heidelberg .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think that the h I mean nothing beats the {disfmarker} the admission charge prices in Japan . So there , two hundred dollars is {disfmarker} is moderate for getting into a discotheque . You know . Then again , everything else is free then once you 're ins in there .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Really .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Food and drink and so forth . So . I mean . But i you know , i we can {disfmarker} Something {disfmarker} Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and u the answer {pause} is s if we {disfmarker} um , you know , um {disfmarker} still , based on that result is never going to enter that building .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know ? Because it 's just too expensive .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I think I see . So the discourse refers to \" admission fee \" but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . you have to have some notion of not just {disfmarker} I mean there 's a {disfmarker} there 's change across several turns of discourse", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so {vocalsound} I don't know how {disfmarker} if any of this was discussed {disfmarker} but how i if it all this is going to interact with {vocalsound} whatever general {vocalsound} uh , other {disfmarker} other discourse processing that might be happen .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . {comment} {nonvocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What sort of discourse {pause} processing is uh {disfmarker} are the {disfmarker} How much is built into SmartKom and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It works like this . The uh , um {disfmarker} I mean . The first thing we get is that {pause} already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention , right ? simply by parsing it . And this um {disfmarker} m won't differentiate between all modes , yeah ? but at least it 'll tell us \" OK here we have something that {disfmarker} somebody that wants to go someplace , now it 's up for us to figure out what kind of going there is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} {pause} is happening , and um , if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything {disfmarker} all the information is needed , what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it 's handed on to the discourse history which is , um o one of the most elaborate {disfmarker} elaborate modules . It 's {disfmarker} it 's actually the {disfmarker} the whole memory of the entire system , that knows what {disfmarker} wh who said what , which was {disfmarker} what was presented . It helps an an anaphora resolution and it {disfmarker} and it fills in all the structures that are omitted , so , {pause} um , because you say \" OK , {pause} how can I get to the castle ? \" Oh , how {disfmarker} how much is it ? \" and um \" yeah I would like uh {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} to g let 's do it \" and so forth . So even without an a ana {pause} anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened . so {vocalsound} whenever the uh , um person is not actually rejecting what happened before , so as in \" No I really don't want to see that movie . I 'd rather stay home and watch TV \" um {disfmarker} What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is {disfmarker} is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step , by the discourse model {disfmarker} discourse {pause} model , Yeah , that 's what it 's called . and , um , it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues . So a person pointing to something on the screen , you know , the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a rather huge {vocalsound} {disfmarker} huge thing but um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} um {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} we can {pause} sort of {disfmarker} It has a very clear interface . We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and {disfmarker} and the turn before that or you know how {pause} deep we want to search", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} which is a question . How deep do we want to sear , you know ? Um {disfmarker} but we should {pause} try to keep in mind that , you know , we 're doing this sort of for research , so we {disfmarker} we should find a limit that 's reasonable and not go , you know , all the way back to Adam and Eve . You know , did that person ever discuss admissions fee {disfmarker} fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty {disfmarker} pretty you know {vocalsound} concise and {disfmarker} Anyway .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the {pause} use of \" admission fee discussion \" as a cue for entry , {vocalsound} {pause} is thinking about the plans that various people might have . Like all the different {vocalsound} sort of general schemas that they might be following OK . This person is um , finding out information about this thing in order to go {pause} in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place {pause} in order to do business . Um , because then {pause} anything that 's a cue for one of the steps {pause} would be slight evidence for that overall plan . Um , I don't know . They 're {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have {vocalsound} {pause} you know , some idea at each turn of agent doing something , \" OK , wha what plans is this a {disfmarker} consistent with ? \" and then get s some more information and then you see {pause} \" here 's a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into \" . It {disfmarker} it might be useful here too .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know how you know you 'd have to {vocalsound} {pause} figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} u u", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's in the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these plan schemas . I mean there are some {disfmarker} some of them are extremely elaborate , you know . \" What do you need {disfmarker} need to buy a ticket ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You know ? and it {disfmarker} it 's fifty steps ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "huh ? just for buying a ticket {pause} at a ticket counter , you know , and {disfmarker} and maybe that 's helpful to look at it {disfmarker} to look at those . It 's amazing what human beings can do . W when we talked uh we had the example , you know , of you being uh {disfmarker} a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands , says {vocalsound} New York and you say Track seven , huh ? And it 's because you know that that person actually is following , you know {disfmarker} You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps , you know , without any information other than \" New York \" , huh ? inferring everything from the context . So , works . Um , even though there is probably no train from here to New York , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mmm . Not direct .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You 'd uh probably have to transfer in Chicago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But uh {disfmarker} it 's possible . Um , no you probably have to transfer also somewhere else . Right ? Is that t San Francisco , Chicago ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is that possible ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One time I saw a report on trains , and I think there is a l I don't know if {disfmarker} I thought there was a line that went from somewhere , maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but there was like a California to Chicago line of some sort .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I could be wrong though . It was a while ago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The Transcontinental Railroad , doesn't that ring a bell ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but I don't know if it 's still {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think it has to exist somewhere .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "They might have blown it up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well it never went all the way , right ? I mean you always had to change trains at Omaha ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well most of the way .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? One track ended there and the other one started at {disfmarker} five meters away from that", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well . {pause} You seem to know better than we do so .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yeah ? Has anybody ever been on an Amtrak ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I have . But not transcontinentally .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'm frightened by Amtrak myself .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ? Why ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I just {disfmarker} They seem to have a lot of accidents on the Amtrak .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Their reputation is very bad .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "huh ? It 's not maybe reality .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's not like German trains . Like German trains are really great so .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} you know , I don't know whether it 's {disfmarker} which ones are safer , you know , statistically .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , but they 're faster .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Much faster . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And there 's much more of them . Yeah , they 're Yeah , it 's {pause} way better", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah I used {disfmarker} um Amtrak quite a bit on the east coast and I was surprised . It was actually OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You know , on Boston New York ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "New York Rhode Island ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "whatever ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 've done that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Boston .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} That 's {pause} a different issue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "This is going to be an interesting transcript .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I want to see what it does with uh \" landmark - iness \" . That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's all say it a few more times .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It 'd help it figure it out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Just kidding . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So by the way tha that structure {pause} that Robert drew on the board was like more um , {vocalsound} {pause} cue - type - based , right , here 's like we 're gonna {vocalsound} segment off a bit of stuff that comes from discourse and then {pause} some of the things we 're talking about here are more {disfmarker} you know , we mentioned maybe {pause} if they talk about {pause} um , I don't know , entering or som you know like they might be more task - based .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I don't know if there {disfmarker} There 's obviously some {disfmarker} m more than one way of organizing {pause} the variables into something", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think that um {disfmarker} What you guys did is really nicely sketching out different tasks , and maybe some of their conditions .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One task is more likely you 're in a hurry when you do that kind of s doing business ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and less in a hurry when uh {disfmarker} you 're a tourist Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} tourists may have {disfmarker} never have final destinations , you know because they are eternally traveling around so {vocalsound} maybe what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what happened {disfmarker} what might happen is that we do get this sort of task - based middle layer ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and then we 'll get these sub - middle layers , that are more cue - based .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . That feed into those ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Nah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Might be {disfmarker} might be a nice dichotomy of {disfmarker} of the world . So , um I suggest w to {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} to proceed with this in {disfmarker} in the sense that {pause} maybe throughout this week the three of us will {disfmarker} will talk some more about maybe segmenting off different regions , and we make up some {disfmarker} {pause} some toy a observable \" nodes \" {disfmarker} is that what th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Refined y re just refine the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What 's the technical term ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . For which ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For the uh {disfmarker} nodes that are observable ? The \" outer layer \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Just observable nodes ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The features ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "evidence nodes ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know , whatever you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Feature ma make up some features for those {disfmarker} Identify {pause} four regions ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "maybe make up some features for each region and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uh , uh {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} middle layer for those . And then these should then connect somehow to the more plan - based deep space", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Basically just refine {pause} some of the more general nodes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep . The - they {disfmarker} they will be aud ad - hoc for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for some time to come .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is totally like {disfmarker} The probabilities and all are completely ad - hoc . We need to look at all of them . I mean but , they 're even like {vocalsound} {pause} I mean like , close to the end we were like , uh , you know we were like uh {vocalsound} really ad - hoc .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's a even distribution . Like , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right ? Cuz if it 's like , uh {disfmarker} If it 's four things coming in , right ? And , say , some of them have like three possibilities and all that . So you 're thinking like {disfmarker} like a hundred and forty four or something {pause} possible things {disfmarker} numbers to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} That 's terrible .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Some of them are completely absurd too , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want to enter , but it 's closed ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's night time , you know there are tourists and all this weird stuff happens at the line up and you 're like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , the only like possible interpretation is that they are like {disfmarker} come here just to rob the museum or {pause} something to that effect .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "confused .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "In which case you 're supposed to alert the authorities , {vocalsound} and see appropriate action .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , another thing to do , um , is also to , um {disfmarker} I guess to ask around people about other Bayes - net packages . Is Srini gonna be {pause} at the meeting tomorrow , do you know ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The day after tomorrow .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Wait {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Quite possibly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Wednesday .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Day after tomorrow .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , oh , sorry .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sorry , Wednesday ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Who 's talking on Wednesday ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Maybe we can ask him about it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I haven't {disfmarker} J Jerry never sent out a {disfmarker} sent out an email , did he , ever ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . But he mentioned at the last meeting that someone was going to be talking , I forget who .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , isn't Ben ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ben ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ben , then ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think it 's Ben actually ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ben .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "yeah , um , giving his job talk I think . um , Sorry . I was just reading the screen .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So the uh {disfmarker} That will be one {disfmarker} one thing we could do . I actually uh , have {disfmarker} Um , also we can uh , start looking at the SmartKom tables and I will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I actually wanted to show that {pause} to you guys now but um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Do you want to {pause} trade ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , no I {disfmarker} I actually made a mistake because it {disfmarker} it fell asleep and when Linux falls asleep on my machine it 's {disfmarker} it doesn't wake up ever , so I had to reboot", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , no .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And if I reboot without a network , I will not be able to start SmartKom , because I need to have a network .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So we 'll do that t maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But . OK . But once you start {disfmarker} sart start SmartKom you can be on {disfmarker} You don't have to be on a network anymore . Is that the deal ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah , interesting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why does SmartKom need a network ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it looks up some stuff that , {pause} you know , is {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} is in the {disfmarker} written by the operating system only if it {disfmarker} if you get a DHCP request , so it {disfmarker} you know , my computer does not know its IP address , you know ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know . So . Unless it boots up with networking .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's plugged in . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And I don't have an IP address , they can't look up {disfmarker} they don't know who localhost is , and so forth and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Always fun . But it 's a , um , simple solution . We can just um , go downstairs and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and look at this , but maybe not today . The other thing um {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} oh yeah , OK , I have to report {vocalsound} um , data collection . We interviewed Fey ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "She 's willing to do it , meaning be the wizard for the data collection , also {vocalsound} maybe transcribe a little bit , if she has to , but also recruiting subjects , organizing them , and so forth . So that looks good . Jerry however suggested that we should uh have a trial run with her , see whether she can actually do all the uh spontaneous , eloquent and creativeness that we uh expect of the wizard . And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So who would be the subject {pause} of this trial run ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Pardon me ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Who {disfmarker} Will there be a {disfmarker} Is one {disfmarker} Is you {disfmarker} one of you gonna be the subject ? Like are you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um Liz also volunteered to be the first subject , {vocalsound} which I think might be even better than us guys .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One of us , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "If we do need her for the technical stuff , then of course one of you has to sort of uh {disfmarker} jump in .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I like how we 've {disfmarker} you guys have successfully narrowed it down . \" Is one of you going to be the subject ? \" Is one of you {disfmarker} jump in .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Reference . I haven't done it yet .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well I just figured it has to be someone who 's , um , familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard , so we can , uh , see if they 're you know good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh plants ? e u someone who can plant difficult things .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean that 's what we wanna {pause} check , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , in this case it 's a p it 's a {pause} sort of testing of the wizard rather than of the subject .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Isn't that what it is ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yes w we {disfmarker} we would like to test the wizard , but {vocalsound} you know , if we take a subject that is completely unfamiliar with the task , or any of the set up , we get a more realistic", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I guess that would be reasonable .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know , set up as {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know . That 's probably a good enough test of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sort of having an actively antagonistic , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . That might be a little unfair . Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 'm sure if we uh , {disfmarker} You think there 's a chance we might need Liz for , whatever , the technical side of things ? I 'm sure we can get {pause} other people around who don't know anything {pause} um , if we want another subject .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You know . Like I can drag Ben into it or something . Although he might cause problems but . So , is it a experimental setup for the um , data collection {pause} totally {pause} ready {disfmarker} determined ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I like that . \" Test the wizard . \" I want that on a T - shirt .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} experimental setup u on the technical issue yes , except we st I think we still need uh {disfmarker} a recording device for the wizard , just a tape recorder that 's running in a room .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} in terms of specifying the scenario , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} we 've gotten a little further", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but um {disfmarker} we wanted to wait until we know who is the wizard , and have the wizard partake in the {pause} ultimate {pause} sort of definition probe . So {disfmarker} so if {disfmarker} if on Friday it turns out that she really likes it and {disfmarker} and we really like her , then nothing should stop us from sitting down next week and {vocalsound} {comment} getting all the details completely figured out .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So the ideal task um , {pause} will have {pause} whatever I don't know how much the structure of the evolving Bayes - net {vocalsound} {pause} will af affect {disfmarker} Like we wanna {disfmarker} we wanna be able to collect {vocalsound} as much of the variables that are needed for that ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm - yea - some .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? in the course of the task ? Well not all of them but you know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Bu - e e e I 'm even {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this Tango , Enter , Vista is sort of , itself , an ad - hoc scenario .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the basic u um idea behind the uh {pause} data collection was the following . The data we get from Munich is {pause} very command line , simple linguistic stuff .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hardly anything complicated . No metaphors whatsoever .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Not a rich language . So we wanted just to collect data , to get {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {pause} elicits more , uh , that elicits richer language .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And we actually did not want to constrain it too much ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know ? Just see what people say . And then maybe we 'll discover the phenomenon {disfmarker} the phenomena that we want to solve , you know , with {pause} whatever engine we {disfmarker} we come up with . Um . So this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is a parallel track , you know , there {disfmarker} they hopefully meet ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So in other words this data collection is {pause} more general .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but since {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It could {disfmarker} it could {pause} be used for not just this task .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It should tell us , you know , what kind of phenomenon could occur , it should tell us also maybe something about the difference between people who think they speak to a computer versus people who think they speak to a human being", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and the sort of differences there . So it may get us some more information on the human - machine pragmatics , um , that no one knows anything about , as of yesterday . And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} nothing has changed {comment} since then , so . Uh . And secondly , now that of course we have sort of started to lick blood with this , and especially since um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Johno can't stop Tango - ing , {vocalsound} we may actually include , you know , those {disfmarker} those intentions . So now I think we should maybe have at least one navigational task with {disfmarker} with sort of explicit {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "not ex it 's implicit that the person wants to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and maybe some task where it 's more or less explicit that the person wants to take a picture ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or see it or something . So that we can label it . I mean , that 's how we get a corpus that we can label .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Whereas , you know , if we 'd just get data we 'd never know what they actually wanted , we 'd get no cues . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Alrighty .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That was that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So is this the official end of the meeting now ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Looks like it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So what 's \" Economics , the fallacy \" ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ma", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I just randomly {pause} label things . So that has nothing to do with economics or anything .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , really ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe we ought to switch off these things before we continue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Switching o", "speaker": "Grad D" } ]

[ { "content": "Nice .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "to {disfmarker} to handle .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is that good ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , I 've have never handled them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Goats eat cans , to my understanding . Tin cans .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Did we need to do these things ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Could I hit {disfmarker} hit F - seven to do that ? on the {disfmarker} Robert ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , the remote will do it OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Cuz I 'm already up there ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "in control here .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You are in control . Already ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wow , we 're all so high tech here . Yet another p PowerPoint presentation .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} Well it makes it easier {pause} to do", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Certainly does .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So , {pause} we were {disfmarker} Ah !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Johno , where are you ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So , Let 's see . Which one of these buttons will do this for me ? Aha ! OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Should you go back to the first one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Do I wanna go back to the first one ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , {pause} just to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Introduce .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , um {vocalsound} Well , \" the search for the middle layer \" . It 's basically uh talks about uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It just refers to the fact that uh {pause} one of main things we had to do was to {pause} decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I can read ! I 'm kidding .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know , because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to {pause} click on the little {pause} light bulb .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Although I 've {disfmarker} I 've never {disfmarker} I don't know what the light bulb is for . I didn't i install that into my {pause} PowerPoint presentation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Do you wanna try ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ach u", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'd prefer not to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Continue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's a needless good idea . Is that the idea ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh ! OK . Of course . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and then {pause} if I do that it 'll mess everything up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I was wondering .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Is that OK ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Can you maximize the window ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Proceed .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You want me to {disfmarker} Wait , what do you want me to do ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't {disfmarker} doesn't appear ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , It 's OK . It 's {disfmarker} It 'll work .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , fine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Here , let 's see if I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Very nice .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Is that better ? OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I 'll also get rid of this \" Click to add notes \" . OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Perfect .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So then the features we decided {disfmarker} or we decided we were {disfmarker} talked about , right ? Uh the {disfmarker} the prosody , the discourse , {pause} verb choice . You know . We had a list of things like \" to go \" and \" to visit \" and what not . The \" landmark - iness \" of uh {disfmarker} I knew you 'd like that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Nice coinage .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Thank you . uh , of a {disfmarker} of a building . Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line {pause} for space . \" Nice walls \" {vocalsound} which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna {pause} get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it . And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls . The context , which in this case we 've limited to {pause} \" business person \" , \" tourist \" , or {pause} \" unknown \" , the time of day , and \" open to suggestions \" , isn't actually a feature . It 's {pause} \" We are open to suggestions . \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that {vocalsound} uh , in this particular domain {disfmarker} you said {disfmarker} be {disfmarker} i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the {disfmarker} that landmark - iness cor is correlated with", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . We have a separate", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "They 're separate things .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "feature .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "their being nice w", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I either could put \" nice walls \" on its own line or \" open to suggestions \" off the slide .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like you could have a p", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} By \" nice \" you mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} Like you could have a post office with uh {disfmarker} you know , nice murals or something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or one time I was at this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So \" nice walls \" is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh {disfmarker} significant", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But see the thing is , if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Architecturally appealing from the outside .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "or something like that . OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from {disfmarker} Like you m might be able to \" Vista \" it ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? And be able to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Appreciate it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I don't remember w", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It was a long time ago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "There 's a lot of those .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But if you looked at it real close , you could see the {disfmarker} the in intricacy of the {disfmarker} of the walls .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So that count as {disfmarker} counts as a nice wall .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} OK . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Something you want to inspect at close range {pause} because it 's interesting .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Robert ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well there {disfmarker} there is a term {pause} that 's often used . That 's \" saliency \" , or the \" salience \" of an object . And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as \" landmark - iness \" . But it 's really not . I mean an object can be very salient", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but not a landmark at all .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Not a landmark at all . There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . but you can imagine maybe wanting the oth both kinds of things there for different um , goals .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be {disfmarker} Wouldn't {disfmarker} couldn't they also be {disfmarker} They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like {pause} non - tourist - y landmarks and", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or it can be als", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "direct navigational {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "They 're not mutually exclusive ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . Definitely .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying , {pause} because {disfmarker} uh our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , a big flat structure .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And uh , so we {disfmarker} Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that . If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped . I don't know belief - nets very well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well usually , I mean , you know , N {disfmarker} If you have N features , then it 's two to the N {disfmarker} {pause} or exponential in N .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And they wouldn't look pretty . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh . So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was {vocalsound} we have the features that we 've drawn {pause} from the communication of some {disfmarker} Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like \" I 'm {disfmarker} \" the {disfmarker} the abstract idea being \" I am a tourist I want to go {pause} to this place . \" Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and {pause} what they 've said previously and whatnot . And then we have {pause} the means {vocalsound} that they should use . Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist {pause} or {pause} whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines . Or {disfmarker} Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the {disfmarker} from the data , the hidden variables . Yes , good . So then the hidden variables {disfmarker} hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} or th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Want to do Vista ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ? Because {pause} if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a {disfmarker} like a {pause} navigational point to go to another place .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed . Those are all {disfmarker} And then \" Let 's look at the belief - net \" {comment} OK . So that means that I should switch to the {pause} other program . Um right now it 's still kind of {pause} in a toy {pause} version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of {disfmarker} {pause} or {disfmarker} Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No one knows it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So this right {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker} Let 's see . What happens if I maximize this ? There we go . But uh {disfmarker} So . The mode {pause} basically has three different {pause} outputs . The probability {disfmarker} whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter . Um {disfmarker} The \" context \" , we simplified . Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown . \" Verb used \" is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's {disfmarker} it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a {pause} Vista verb .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that one needs a lot of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And are those mutually exclusive sets ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Not at all . That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that needs a lot of work .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {vocalsound} {pause} that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Got it . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so we decided that for the purposes of this {pause} it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Simple .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Stab at it . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Um {disfmarker} Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} that are not coming to my mind right now .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the {disfmarker} sort of , the things that are not directly extracted . Actually , the five things . The \" closed \" is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well i it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "From the {pause} utterance ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's so it sort of is", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Actually , no , wait .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} because have the {disfmarker} the time of day", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It is . OK , \" closed \" sort of is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and the close it just had the {disfmarker} er and what time it closed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker} you know probabilistically depends on the other things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Inferred from the other ones ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} {pause} the actual parse is somewhere up around in here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . So we haven't uh , managed {disfmarker} Like we don't have nodes for \" discourse \" and \" parse \" , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So some of the {disfmarker} the top row of things {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker} what 's \" Disc admission fee \" ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "whether they discuss the admission fees . So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like {vocalsound} \" Can I get to this place ? \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "\" What is the admission fee ? \" . So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "There were {disfmarker} there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but {pause} you know , {pause} we didn't have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That was like our example .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That was the {pause} initial one that we found .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So there are certain cues that are very strong {pause} either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "From the discourse that {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "for one of those . And then in that second row {pause} or whatever that row of Time of Day through that {disfmarker} So all of those {disfmarker} Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of {vocalsound} either world knowledge or situational {pause} things .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One , uh {disfmarker} Uh . {vocalsound} Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Unmark @ @ Time of Day \"", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I m I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . They 're {disfmarker} they 're are a couple of more things .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One thing {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean Uh . I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we {disfmarker} we all uh , agree on what {disfmarker} what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe {vocalsound} what changes we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , th OK . so one thing I {disfmarker} I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh {disfmarker} the \" admission fee \" thing set up . So one {pause} thing that we were thinking was {vocalsound} by doing the layers like this , Uh {disfmarker} we kept um {disfmarker} things from directly affecting the mode {pause} beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the \" admission fee \" going directly to the mode pointing at \" Enter \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? Versus pointing to just at \" tourist \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted {pause} to point at the middle and then {pause} down .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Why is the landmark {disfmarker} OK . The landmark is facing to the tourists . That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Navigational landmarks ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Navigational cue .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "navigational landmarks", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so Mm - hmm . Then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would be {pause} whatever building they referred to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Prosody .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . So let 's see . The variables .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Disc - \" admission fee \" is a binary thing , \" time of day \" is like morning , afternoon , night . Is that the deal ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's how we have it currently set up ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but it could be , {pause} you know , based upon hour", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Whatever granularity .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or {pause} dis we could discrete it {disfmarker} des descret - ize it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but um , we are just using the particular {vocalsound} part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So that 's given in their input .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Right ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so it 's not really all of context . Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply {vocalsound} for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . that 's very nice , huh ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or also unknown ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or un {pause} unknown ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Unknown , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Which is th Which one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but OK . so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , \" are you {disfmarker} \" I mean the {disfmarker} ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , it does .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So then you just have some probabilities over {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Everything is probablistic , and {disfmarker} There 's always {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . {disfmarker} over which which of those it is .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , right . So then landmark is {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . \" Verb used \" is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Rather , let me rephrase that . It {disfmarker} it can take values {vocalsound} in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um \" nice walls \" is binary , \" closed \" is binary \" final destination \" , again {disfmarker} Yeah , all those are binary I guess . And \" mode \" is one of three things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the middle layer is also binary ? No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh . It {disfmarker} Yeah . But all those things without question marks are also binary . Right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Which things ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Nice walls ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Wi", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh . \" Nice walls \" is uh {disfmarker} something that we extract from our world knowledge .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , a Oh yeah . Sorry . It is binary .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's true . Yeah . OK , I see your point .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I gotcha .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , similarly \" closed \" , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , we To do that we would add another uh {disfmarker} value for that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And that would require s updating the probability distribution for \" mode \" as well .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Because it would now have to like uh {disfmarker} take that possibility into account .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Take a conti", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would {disfmarker} that would help you {disfmarker} Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that {disfmarker} that would {vocalsound} {pause} determine {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Other syntactic information you mean ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of the landmark is {disfmarker} is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Usually . I {disfmarker} I don't know if that 's always the case I {disfmarker} I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have . So . Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "that 's always warping on something {disfmarker} some entity ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and um {disfmarker} Uh maybe at this stage we will {disfmarker} we do want to {disfmarker} uh sort of get {disfmarker} uh modifiers in there", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I want to get to the church quickly ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That would be a cue .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "what 's the fastest way", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , correct .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Um . OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Excellent . Do we have anything else to say about this ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We can do a little demo .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh the Yeah , we could . But the demo doesn't work very well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} We can do a demo in the sense that we can um , {vocalsound} just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Observe nodes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Go ahead .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK . Dat - dat - dah . What should I observe ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Just se set a few of them . You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time . Just like uh , {vocalsound} maybe the fact that they use a certain verb {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Actually forget the verb .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "just uh {disfmarker} I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the place has nice walls", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and it 's night .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "it 's starting to grow on me", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And the time of day is night ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , no wait . That {disfmarker} that doesn't uh {disfmarker} it 's not really consistent . They don't discuss the admission fee . Make that false .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And it 's night .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , they {disfmarker} OK . Oh whoops . I forgot to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That didn't work .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ach !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd like to do that again .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . That seems kind of redundant but .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That all you want ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So let 's see . I want {pause} to query ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" Go \" and , right , \" query \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ? the mode . OK , and then on here {disfmarker} So let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So that {pause} is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So slightly {pause} biased {pause} toward \" Tango \" ing", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "If it 's night time , {pause} they have not discussed admission fee , and the n walls are nice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So , yeah . I guess that {pause} sort of makes sense . The reason I say the {pause} demo doesn't work very well is yesterday we uh {disfmarker} {pause} observed everything in favor of {pause} taking a tour , and it came up as \" Tango \" , right ? Over and over again . We couldn't {disfmarker} we couldn't figure out how to turn it off of \" Tango \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It loves the Tango .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Huh ! Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , that 's obviously just to do with our probabilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like , {pause} we totally hand - tuned the probabilities ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right . We were like {vocalsound} \" hmm , well if the person does this and this and this , let 's say forty percent for this ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "fifty per \" Like , you know . So obviously that 's gonna happen .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Maybe the bias toward \" Tango \" ing was yours , then ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "that 's {disfmarker} that 's at {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} So we have to like fit the probabilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Spent my youth practicing the tango de la muerte .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , the real case ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "However you know , it {disfmarker} The purpose was not really , at this stage , to come up with meaningful probabilities but to get thinking about that hidden middle layer . And so th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We would actually {disfmarker} I guess once we look at the data more we 'll get more hidden {pause} nodes ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I 'd like to see more . Not because it would {pause} expedite the probabilities , cuz it wouldn't . It would actually slow that down tremendously .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . Well , yeah , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Not that much though . Only a little early .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I think we should have uh {disfmarker} exponentially more {pause} middle nodes than features we 've extracted . I 'm ju I 'm just jo", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . Are \" doing business \" versus \" tourist \" {disfmarker} They refer to your current task . Like {disfmarker} like current thing you want to do at this moment .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker} that 's an interesting point . Whether you 're {disfmarker} It 's whether {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And are th", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think it 's more like \" Are you are tourist ? are you in Ham - like Heidelberg for a {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , so , I thought that was directly given by the context {pause} switch .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's a different thing . What if the context , which is not set , but still they say things like , \" I want to go {pause} uh , see the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the castle and uh , et cetera . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well the I kind of {pause} thought of \" doing business \" as more of running an errand type thing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Business on the other hand is , uh , definitely what you 're doing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So if you run out of cash as a tourist , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you need to go to the AT", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So {pause} i wi th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , I see , you may have a task . wh you have to go get money and so you are doing business at that stage .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" How do I get to the bank ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I see . Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And that 'll affect whether you want to enter or you if you {disfmarker} kinda thing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So the \" tourists \" node {pause} should be {pause} um , very consistent with the context node . Right ? If you say that 's more their {disfmarker} in general what their background is .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think this context node is a bit of a {disfmarker} I don't know , like in d Uh {disfmarker} Do we {pause} wanna have {disfmarker} Like it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are you assuming that or not ? Like is that to be {disfmarker} I mean if that 's accurate then that would determine tourist node .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If the context were to set one way or another , that like strongly uh um , says something about whether {disfmarker} whether or not they 're tourists .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So what 's interesting is when it 's not {disfmarker} when it 's set to \" unknown \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "We - what set the {disfmarker} they set the context to \" unknown \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right now we haven't observed it , so I guess it 's sort of averaging over all those three possibilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But yes , you can set it to un \" unknown \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And if we now do {disfmarker} leave everything else as is the results should be the same ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well no , because we {disfmarker} Th - the way we set the probabilities {vocalsound} might not have {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's an {disfmarker} it 's an issue , right ? Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Pretty much the same ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is . So the issue is that um in belief - nets , it 's not common to do what we did of like having , you know , a d bunch of values and then \" unknown \" as an actual value . What 's common is you just like don't observe the variable ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right , and then just marginalizes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We didn't do this because we felt that there 'd {disfmarker} I guess we were thinking in terms of a switch that actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We were thi Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We were th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} I don't know y what the right thing is to do for that . I 'm not {disfmarker} I don't know if I totally am happy with {vocalsound} the way it is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why don't we {disfmarker} Can we , um {disfmarker} How long would it take to {disfmarker} to add another {pause} node on the observatory and , um , play around with it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Another node on what ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , well it depends on how many things it 's linked to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's just say make it really simple . If we create {pause} something that for example would be um {disfmarker} So th some things can be landmarks in your sense but {pause} they {pause} can never be entered ? So for example s a statue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Good point .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So {pause} maybe we wanna have \" landmark \" {pause} meaning now \" enterable landmark \" versus , um something that 's simply just a vista point , for example .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah ? uh , a statue or um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So basically it 's addressing a variable that 's \" enterable or not \" . So like an \" enterable , question mark \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Also {disfmarker} {pause} you know , didn't we have a {pause} size as one ? The size of the landmark .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . Not when we were doing this ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but I guess at some point we did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For some reason I had that {disfmarker} OK , that was a thought that I had at one point but then went away .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you want to have a {disfmarker} a node for like whether or not it can be entered ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , for example , if we include that , yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "um , accessibility or something , yeah ? \" Is it {disfmarker} Can it be entered ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "then of course , this is {pause} sort of binary as well .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And then um , there 's also the question whether it may be entered . In the sense that , you know , if it 's {pause} Tom {disfmarker} the house of Tom Cruise , you know , it 's enterable but you may not enter it . You know ? You 're not allowed to .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Unless you are , whatever , his {disfmarker} his divorce lawyer or something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ? and um {disfmarker} And these are very observable sort of from the {disfmarker} from the ontology sort of things .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Way Does it actually help to distinguish between those two cases though ? Whether it 's practically speaking enterable , or actually physically enterable {pause} or not ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "y y If {disfmarker} If you 're running an errand you maybe more likely to be able to enter places that are usually not {vocalsound} al w you 're not usually {disfmarker} not allowed to uh m", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It seems like it would for uh , uh {pause} determining whether they wanna go into it or not .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well I can see why {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Cuz they {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Let 's get this uh b clearer . S so it 's matrix between if it 's not enterable , period .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Whether it 's a {disfmarker} Whether it 's a public building , and whether it 's {disfmarker} actually has a door .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "This is sort of uh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So Tom Cruise 's house is {pause} not a public building", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but it has a door . But the thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , sh explain to me why it 's necessary {pause} to distinguish between whether something has a door and is {pause} not public . Or , if something {disfmarker} It seems like it 's equivalent to say that it doesn't have a door a {pause} and it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or \" not public \" and \" not a door \" are equivalent things ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it seems like in practice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah . So we would have {disfmarker} What does it mean , then , that we have to {disfmarker} we have an object type statue . That really is an object type . So there is {disfmarker} there 's gonna be a bunch of statues .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And then we have , for example , an object type , {pause} hmm , that 's a hotel . How about hotels ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , the most famous building in Heidelberg is actually a hotel . It 's the hotel Zum Ritter , which is the only Renaissance building in Heidelberg that was left after {pause} the big destruction and for the Thirty Years War , blah - blah - blah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Does it have nice walls ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It has wonderful walls . Um - And lots of detail , c and carvings , engravings and so forth ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Excellent .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so . But , um , it 's still an unlikely candidate for the Tango mode I {pause} must say . But . Um . So {disfmarker} s So if you are a d Well it 's very tricky . So I guess your question is {disfmarker} so far I have no really arg no real argument why to differentiate between statues as {disfmarker} statues and houses of celebrities , from that point of view . Huh . OK . Let {disfmarker} Let 's do a {disfmarker} Can we add , just so I can see how it 's done , uh , a \" has door \" {pause} property or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What would it , uh , connect to ? Like , what would , uh , it affect ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , I think , um , it might affect {disfmarker} Oh actually it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it wouldn't affect any of our nodes , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "What I was thinking was if you had a {disfmarker} like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh it 's {disfmarker} it affects th The \" doing business \" is certainly not .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You could affect {disfmarker} {pause} Theoretically you could affect \" doing business \" with \" has door \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It should , um , inhibit that ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know if JavaBayes is nice about that . It might be that if you add a new thing pointing to a variable , you just like {disfmarker} it just overwrites everything . But {pause} you can check .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , {pause} we have it saved . So . {vocalsound} We can rel open it up again .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . It 's true .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The {pause} safety net .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think you could just add it . I mean , I have before OK . Whew !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well that 's fine , but we have to see the function now . Has it become all point fives or not ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Let 's see . So this is \" has door \" Uh , true , false . That 's acceptable . And I want to edit the function going to that , right ? Oh no .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . This is fine ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . It was fine .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "this business .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "added this one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What would be nice if it {disfmarker} is if it just like kept the old function for either value but . Nope . Didn't {pause} do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh wait , it might be {disfmarker} Did we w Yes , that 's not good .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's {pause} kind of annoying .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , so just dis dismiss everything . Close it and {disfmarker} and load up the old state so {pause} it doesn't screw {disfmarker} screw that up .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Let 's see . Oops .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe you can read in ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ha - So have you used JavaBayes a lot ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yes . Really {vocalsound} I ha I 've {disfmarker} I haven't used it a lot and I haven't used it in the last you know many months so", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "um , uh , we can ask someone .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It might be worth uh {disfmarker} asking around .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Like , we looked at sort of uh {disfmarker} a page that had like a bunch of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Srini {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , S I guess he 'd be the person .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Srini 's the one to ask I would say .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um . He might know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean in a way this is a lot of good features in Java it 's cra has a GUI and it 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I guess those are the main two things . It does learning , it has {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No it doesn't , actually .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I didn't think it did learning .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe it did a little bit of learning ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't remember .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh right . Maybe you 're right . OK . Right . But uh {disfmarker} it 's free .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Which is w quite positive , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But uh , yeah . Maybe another thing that uh {disfmarker} But I mean its interface is not the greatest . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But actually it had an interface .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "A lot of them were like , you know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Command line .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What is the c code ? Can w can we see that ? How do you write the code", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The c", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "or do you actually never have to write any code there ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . There is actually a text file that you can edit . But it 's {disfmarker} You don't have to do that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's like an XML format for {pause} Bayes - nets .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is it XML ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The - there is one . I don't know if this uses it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . No this doesn't use it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I didn't think it did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You can look at the text file .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But do you have it here ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , yes I do actually .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , maybe you don't .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let me see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yes , of course .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh man ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like , there 's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I didn't n {pause} Is there an ampersand in DOS ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Nope . Just s l start up a new DOS .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We - That 's alright . I can probably double cli click on it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "n uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's see , come on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 'll ask you what you {disfmarker} what it wants {disfmarker} what you want to open it with and see what BAT , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "One of these days , it should open this , theoretically .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Go {disfmarker} Right mouse . Open with .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh there we go .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} Oh !", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe it was just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh ! W Ah , it was dead . To the world .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "God !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Through the old Notepad . That 's my favorite editor .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I like {disfmarker} I like Word Pad because it has the uh {disfmarker} the returns ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wordpad ? I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "the carriage returns on some of them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You know how they get \" auto - fills \" I guess ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mmm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or whatever you call it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Anyway , there it is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So this is sort of LISP - y ? No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It just basically looks like it just specifies a bunch of", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's how actual probability tables are specified .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "As , like , lists of numbers .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So theoretically you could edit that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It just that {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {pause} they 're not very friendly .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah the ordering isn't very clear on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you 'd have to like figure out {disfmarker} Like you have to go and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . The layout {pause} of the table .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Actually we could write a program that could generate this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah you could .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You could .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We were doing it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah we can maybe write an interface th for uh entering probability distributions easily , something like {disfmarker} like a little script . That might {vocalsound} be worth it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And that might do .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I actually seem to recall Srini complaining about something to do with Entering probability so this is probably", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The other thing is it is in Java", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We could {pause} manipulate the source {pause} itself ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Do you have the true source files or just the class ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I don't know if he actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . we do", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Does he {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I saw directory called \" source \" ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I didn't e", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} Yeah . Go up one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Up one . Ah yes , good .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Source \" . That 's {disfmarker} that 's quite nice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I don't know if it actually manipulate the source , though . That might be a bit complicated .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think it might {disfmarker} it might be simpler to just {pause} have a script that , you know {disfmarker} It 's , like , friendly ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The d the data tables .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it allows you enter things well .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But if th if there is an XML {pause} file that {disfmarker} or format that it can also read {disfmarker} I mean it just reads this , right ? When it starts .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah I know there is an {disfmarker} I was looking on the we web page and he 's updated it for an XML version of I guess Bayes - nets . There 's a Bayes - net spec for {disfmarker} in XML .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "He 's {disfmarker} Like this guy has ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The JavaBayes guy ? So {disfmarker} but , e he doesn't use it . So in what sense has he updated it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well th you can either {disfmarker} you ca or you can read both .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh . I see .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "To my understanding .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . That would be awesome .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Because uh {disfmarker} Well at least the {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I could have misread the web page , I have a habit of doing that , but .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , wonderful .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So you got more slides ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Do I have more slides ? Um yes , one more . \" Future Work \" . I think every presentation have a should have a \" Future Work \" slide . But uh it 's basically {disfmarker} we already talked about all this stuff , so .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . The additional thing is I guess learning the probabilities , {pause} also . E That 's maybe , I don't know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh that 's future future work .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Does {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Very future .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And of course if you have a presentation that doesn't {disfmarker} have something that doesn't work at all , then you have \" What I learned \" , as a slide .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Can't you have both ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You could . My first approach failed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What I learned . OK , so I think that uh our presentation 's finished .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I know what I like about these meetings is one person will nod , and then the next person will nod , and then it just goes all the way around the room .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So the uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I missed my turn .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No I {disfmarker} Earlier I went {nonvocalsound} and Bhaskara went {nonvocalsound} and you did it . You did it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's like yawning .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's like yawning .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And this announcement was in stereo .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ha .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So this means um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Should I pull up the {pause} net again ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Could you put the {disfmarker} the um , net up again ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yes . There we go .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And actually I was {disfmarker} cuz I got a wireless mike on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So a more general thing than \" discussed admission fee \" um , could be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering whether the context , the background context of the discourse {vocalsound} might be {disfmarker} I don't know , if there 's a way to define it or maybe you know generalize it some way um , there might be other cues that , say , um , in the last few utterances there has been something that has strongly associated with say one of the particular modes uh , I don't know if that might be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . I think we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "uh , and {disfmarker} and into that node would be various {disfmarker} various things that {disfmarker} that could have specifically come up .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think a {disfmarker} a sort of general strategy here {disfmarker} You know , this is {disfmarker} this is excellent because {disfmarker} um it gets you thinking along these terms {disfmarker} is that maybe we ob we could observe a couple of um discourse phenomena such as the admission fee , and something else and something else , that happened in the discourse before .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} let 's make those four . And maybe there are two um {disfmarker} So maybe this could be sort of a separate region of the net , {pause} which has two {disfmarker} {pause} has it 's own middle layer . Maybe this , you know , has some {pause} kind {pause} of um , funky thing that di if this and this may influence these hidden nodes of the discourse which is maybe something that is uh , a more general version of the actual {pause} phenomenon that you can observe . So things that point towards {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So instead of single node , for {pause} like , if they said the word \" admission fee \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "\" admission fee \" , or maybe , you know , \" how much to enter \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or you know something , other cues .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Opening hours or something like that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly . That would all f funnel into one node that would {pause} constitute entrance requirements or something like that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So \" pay a visit \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "uh uh d", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean it sort of get into plan recognition kinds of things in the discourse . I mean that 's like the bigger um , version of it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly . Yeah ? And then maybe there are some discourse acts if they happened before , um it 's more for um a cue that the person actually wants to get somewhere else and that you are in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a route um , sort of proceeding past these things , so this would be just something that {disfmarker} where you want to pass it . Hmm ? Is that it ? However these are of course then the {disfmarker} the nodes , the observed nodes , for your middle layer . So this {pause} again points to \" final destination \" , \" doing business \" , \" tourist hurry \" and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah ? And so then we can say , \" OK . we have a whole {pause} region {disfmarker} \" {vocalsound} in a e", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's a whole set of discourse related cues to your middle layer .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly . And this is just {disfmarker} then just one .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So e because at the end the more we um {disfmarker} add , you know , the more spider - web - ish it 's going to become in the middle and the more of hand editing . It 's going to get very ugly . But with this way we could say \" OK , these are the {pause} discourse phenomena . They ra may have there own hidden layer {pause} that points to some of {pause} the {disfmarker} the real hidden layer , um or the general hidden layer .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And the same we will be able to do for syntactic information , the verbs used , the object types used , modifiers . And maybe there 's a hidden layer for that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so forth and so forth . Then we have context .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So essentially a lot of those nodes can be expanded into little Bayes - nets of their own .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Precisely . So .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One thing that 's kind of been bugging me when I {disfmarker} more I look at this is that the {disfmarker} I guess , the fact that the {disfmarker} there 's a complete separation between the {pause} observed features and in the output .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean , it makes it cleaner , but then uh {disfmarker} I mean .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For instance if the discourse does {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What do you mean by that ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well for instance , the \" discourse admission fee \" {pause} node seems like it should point directly to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or increase the probability of \" enter {pause} directly \" versus \" going there via tourist \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or we could like add more , uh , sort of middle nodes . Like we could add a node like do they want to enter it , which is affected by admission fee and by whether it 's closed and by whether it has a door .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it 's like {disfmarker} There are {disfmarker} Those are the two options . Either like make an arrow directly or put a new node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "that makes sense .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And if it {disfmarker} if you do it {disfmarker} If you could connect it too hard you may get such phenomenon that {disfmarker} like \" So how much has it cost to enter ? \" and the answer is two hundred fifty dollars , and then the persons says um \" Yeah I want to see it . \" Yeah ? meaning \" It 's way out of my budget \" um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "There are places in Germany where it costs two hundred fifty dollars to enter ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , nothing comes to mind . Without thinking too hard . Um , maybe , yeah of course , um opera premiers .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or any good old Pink Floyd concert .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I see . If you want to see \" The Magic Flute \" or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or maybe um , a famous restaurant . or , I don't know . There are various things that you might w not want to eat a {pause} meal there but {pause} your own table .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The Spagos of Heidelberg .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think that the h I mean nothing beats the {disfmarker} the admission charge prices in Japan . So there , two hundred dollars is {disfmarker} is moderate for getting into a discotheque . You know . Then again , everything else is free then once you 're ins in there .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Really .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Food and drink and so forth . So . I mean . But i you know , i we can {disfmarker} Something {disfmarker} Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and u the answer {pause} is s if we {disfmarker} um , you know , um {disfmarker} still , based on that result is never going to enter that building .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know ? Because it 's just too expensive .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I think I see . So the discourse refers to \" admission fee \" but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . you have to have some notion of not just {disfmarker} I mean there 's a {disfmarker} there 's change across several turns of discourse", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so {vocalsound} I don't know how {disfmarker} if any of this was discussed {disfmarker} but how i if it all this is going to interact with {vocalsound} whatever general {vocalsound} uh , other {disfmarker} other discourse processing that might be happen .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . {comment} {nonvocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What sort of discourse {pause} processing is uh {disfmarker} are the {disfmarker} How much is built into SmartKom and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It works like this . The uh , um {disfmarker} I mean . The first thing we get is that {pause} already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention , right ? simply by parsing it . And this um {disfmarker} m won't differentiate between all modes , yeah ? but at least it 'll tell us \" OK here we have something that {disfmarker} somebody that wants to go someplace , now it 's up for us to figure out what kind of going there is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} {pause} is happening , and um , if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything {disfmarker} all the information is needed , what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it 's handed on to the discourse history which is , um o one of the most elaborate {disfmarker} elaborate modules . It 's {disfmarker} it 's actually the {disfmarker} the whole memory of the entire system , that knows what {disfmarker} wh who said what , which was {disfmarker} what was presented . It helps an an anaphora resolution and it {disfmarker} and it fills in all the structures that are omitted , so , {pause} um , because you say \" OK , {pause} how can I get to the castle ? \" Oh , how {disfmarker} how much is it ? \" and um \" yeah I would like uh {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} to g let 's do it \" and so forth . So even without an a ana {pause} anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened . so {vocalsound} whenever the uh , um person is not actually rejecting what happened before , so as in \" No I really don't want to see that movie . I 'd rather stay home and watch TV \" um {disfmarker} What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is {disfmarker} is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step , by the discourse model {disfmarker} discourse {pause} model , Yeah , that 's what it 's called . and , um , it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues . So a person pointing to something on the screen , you know , the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a rather huge {vocalsound} {disfmarker} huge thing but um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} um {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} we can {pause} sort of {disfmarker} It has a very clear interface . We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and {disfmarker} and the turn before that or you know how {pause} deep we want to search", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} which is a question . How deep do we want to sear , you know ? Um {disfmarker} but we should {pause} try to keep in mind that , you know , we 're doing this sort of for research , so we {disfmarker} we should find a limit that 's reasonable and not go , you know , all the way back to Adam and Eve . You know , did that person ever discuss admissions fee {disfmarker} fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty {disfmarker} pretty you know {vocalsound} concise and {disfmarker} Anyway .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the {pause} use of \" admission fee discussion \" as a cue for entry , {vocalsound} {pause} is thinking about the plans that various people might have . Like all the different {vocalsound} sort of general schemas that they might be following OK . This person is um , finding out information about this thing in order to go {pause} in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place {pause} in order to do business . Um , because then {pause} anything that 's a cue for one of the steps {pause} would be slight evidence for that overall plan . Um , I don't know . They 're {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have {vocalsound} {pause} you know , some idea at each turn of agent doing something , \" OK , wha what plans is this a {disfmarker} consistent with ? \" and then get s some more information and then you see {pause} \" here 's a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into \" . It {disfmarker} it might be useful here too .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know how you know you 'd have to {vocalsound} {pause} figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} u u", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's in the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these plan schemas . I mean there are some {disfmarker} some of them are extremely elaborate , you know . \" What do you need {disfmarker} need to buy a ticket ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You know ? and it {disfmarker} it 's fifty steps ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "huh ? just for buying a ticket {pause} at a ticket counter , you know , and {disfmarker} and maybe that 's helpful to look at it {disfmarker} to look at those . It 's amazing what human beings can do . W when we talked uh we had the example , you know , of you being uh {disfmarker} a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands , says {vocalsound} New York and you say Track seven , huh ? And it 's because you know that that person actually is following , you know {disfmarker} You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps , you know , without any information other than \" New York \" , huh ? inferring everything from the context . So , works . Um , even though there is probably no train from here to New York , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mmm . Not direct .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You 'd uh probably have to transfer in Chicago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But uh {disfmarker} it 's possible . Um , no you probably have to transfer also somewhere else . Right ? Is that t San Francisco , Chicago ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is that possible ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One time I saw a report on trains , and I think there is a l I don't know if {disfmarker} I thought there was a line that went from somewhere , maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but there was like a California to Chicago line of some sort .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I could be wrong though . It was a while ago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The Transcontinental Railroad , doesn't that ring a bell ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but I don't know if it 's still {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think it has to exist somewhere .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "They might have blown it up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well it never went all the way , right ? I mean you always had to change trains at Omaha ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well most of the way .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? One track ended there and the other one started at {disfmarker} five meters away from that", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well . {pause} You seem to know better than we do so .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yeah ? Has anybody ever been on an Amtrak ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I have . But not transcontinentally .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'm frightened by Amtrak myself .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ? Why ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I just {disfmarker} They seem to have a lot of accidents on the Amtrak .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Their reputation is very bad .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "huh ? It 's not maybe reality .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's not like German trains . Like German trains are really great so .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} you know , I don't know whether it 's {disfmarker} which ones are safer , you know , statistically .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , but they 're faster .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Much faster . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And there 's much more of them . Yeah , they 're Yeah , it 's {pause} way better", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah I used {disfmarker} um Amtrak quite a bit on the east coast and I was surprised . It was actually OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You know , on Boston New York ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "New York Rhode Island ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "whatever ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 've done that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Boston .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} That 's {pause} a different issue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "This is going to be an interesting transcript .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I want to see what it does with uh \" landmark - iness \" . That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's all say it a few more times .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It 'd help it figure it out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Just kidding . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So by the way tha that structure {pause} that Robert drew on the board was like more um , {vocalsound} {pause} cue - type - based , right , here 's like we 're gonna {vocalsound} segment off a bit of stuff that comes from discourse and then {pause} some of the things we 're talking about here are more {disfmarker} you know , we mentioned maybe {pause} if they talk about {pause} um , I don't know , entering or som you know like they might be more task - based .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I don't know if there {disfmarker} There 's obviously some {disfmarker} m more than one way of organizing {pause} the variables into something", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think that um {disfmarker} What you guys did is really nicely sketching out different tasks , and maybe some of their conditions .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One task is more likely you 're in a hurry when you do that kind of s doing business ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and less in a hurry when uh {disfmarker} you 're a tourist Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} tourists may have {disfmarker} never have final destinations , you know because they are eternally traveling around so {vocalsound} maybe what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what happened {disfmarker} what might happen is that we do get this sort of task - based middle layer ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and then we 'll get these sub - middle layers , that are more cue - based .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . That feed into those ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Nah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Might be {disfmarker} might be a nice dichotomy of {disfmarker} of the world . So , um I suggest w to {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} to proceed with this in {disfmarker} in the sense that {pause} maybe throughout this week the three of us will {disfmarker} will talk some more about maybe segmenting off different regions , and we make up some {disfmarker} {pause} some toy a observable \" nodes \" {disfmarker} is that what th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Refined y re just refine the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What 's the technical term ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . For which ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For the uh {disfmarker} nodes that are observable ? The \" outer layer \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Just observable nodes ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The features ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "evidence nodes ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know , whatever you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Feature ma make up some features for those {disfmarker} Identify {pause} four regions ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "maybe make up some features for each region and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uh , uh {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} middle layer for those . And then these should then connect somehow to the more plan - based deep space", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Basically just refine {pause} some of the more general nodes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep . The - they {disfmarker} they will be aud ad - hoc for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for some time to come .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is totally like {disfmarker} The probabilities and all are completely ad - hoc . We need to look at all of them . I mean but , they 're even like {vocalsound} {pause} I mean like , close to the end we were like , uh , you know we were like uh {vocalsound} really ad - hoc .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's a even distribution . Like , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right ? Cuz if it 's like , uh {disfmarker} If it 's four things coming in , right ? And , say , some of them have like three possibilities and all that . So you 're thinking like {disfmarker} like a hundred and forty four or something {pause} possible things {disfmarker} numbers to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} That 's terrible .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Some of them are completely absurd too , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want to enter , but it 's closed ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's night time , you know there are tourists and all this weird stuff happens at the line up and you 're like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , the only like possible interpretation is that they are like {disfmarker} come here just to rob the museum or {pause} something to that effect .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "confused .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "In which case you 're supposed to alert the authorities , {vocalsound} and see appropriate action .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , another thing to do , um , is also to , um {disfmarker} I guess to ask around people about other Bayes - net packages . Is Srini gonna be {pause} at the meeting tomorrow , do you know ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The day after tomorrow .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Wait {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Quite possibly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Wednesday .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Day after tomorrow .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , oh , sorry .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sorry , Wednesday ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Who 's talking on Wednesday ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Maybe we can ask him about it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I haven't {disfmarker} J Jerry never sent out a {disfmarker} sent out an email , did he , ever ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . But he mentioned at the last meeting that someone was going to be talking , I forget who .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , isn't Ben ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ben ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ben , then ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think it 's Ben actually ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ben .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "yeah , um , giving his job talk I think . um , Sorry . I was just reading the screen .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So the uh {disfmarker} That will be one {disfmarker} one thing we could do . I actually uh , have {disfmarker} Um , also we can uh , start looking at the SmartKom tables and I will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I actually wanted to show that {pause} to you guys now but um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Do you want to {pause} trade ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , no I {disfmarker} I actually made a mistake because it {disfmarker} it fell asleep and when Linux falls asleep on my machine it 's {disfmarker} it doesn't wake up ever , so I had to reboot", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , no .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And if I reboot without a network , I will not be able to start SmartKom , because I need to have a network .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So we 'll do that t maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But . OK . But once you start {disfmarker} sart start SmartKom you can be on {disfmarker} You don't have to be on a network anymore . Is that the deal ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah , interesting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why does SmartKom need a network ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it looks up some stuff that , {pause} you know , is {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} is in the {disfmarker} written by the operating system only if it {disfmarker} if you get a DHCP request , so it {disfmarker} you know , my computer does not know its IP address , you know ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know . So . Unless it boots up with networking .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's plugged in . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And I don't have an IP address , they can't look up {disfmarker} they don't know who localhost is , and so forth and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Always fun . But it 's a , um , simple solution . We can just um , go downstairs and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and look at this , but maybe not today . The other thing um {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} oh yeah , OK , I have to report {vocalsound} um , data collection . We interviewed Fey ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "She 's willing to do it , meaning be the wizard for the data collection , also {vocalsound} maybe transcribe a little bit , if she has to , but also recruiting subjects , organizing them , and so forth . So that looks good . Jerry however suggested that we should uh have a trial run with her , see whether she can actually do all the uh spontaneous , eloquent and creativeness that we uh expect of the wizard . And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So who would be the subject {pause} of this trial run ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Pardon me ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Who {disfmarker} Will there be a {disfmarker} Is one {disfmarker} Is you {disfmarker} one of you gonna be the subject ? Like are you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um Liz also volunteered to be the first subject , {vocalsound} which I think might be even better than us guys .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One of us , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "If we do need her for the technical stuff , then of course one of you has to sort of uh {disfmarker} jump in .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I like how we 've {disfmarker} you guys have successfully narrowed it down . \" Is one of you going to be the subject ? \" Is one of you {disfmarker} jump in .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Reference . I haven't done it yet .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well I just figured it has to be someone who 's , um , familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard , so we can , uh , see if they 're you know good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh plants ? e u someone who can plant difficult things .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean that 's what we wanna {pause} check , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , in this case it 's a p it 's a {pause} sort of testing of the wizard rather than of the subject .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Isn't that what it is ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yes w we {disfmarker} we would like to test the wizard , but {vocalsound} you know , if we take a subject that is completely unfamiliar with the task , or any of the set up , we get a more realistic", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I guess that would be reasonable .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know , set up as {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know . That 's probably a good enough test of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sort of having an actively antagonistic , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . That might be a little unfair . Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 'm sure if we uh , {disfmarker} You think there 's a chance we might need Liz for , whatever , the technical side of things ? I 'm sure we can get {pause} other people around who don't know anything {pause} um , if we want another subject .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You know . Like I can drag Ben into it or something . Although he might cause problems but . So , is it a experimental setup for the um , data collection {pause} totally {pause} ready {disfmarker} determined ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I like that . \" Test the wizard . \" I want that on a T - shirt .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} experimental setup u on the technical issue yes , except we st I think we still need uh {disfmarker} a recording device for the wizard , just a tape recorder that 's running in a room .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} in terms of specifying the scenario , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} we 've gotten a little further", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but um {disfmarker} we wanted to wait until we know who is the wizard , and have the wizard partake in the {pause} ultimate {pause} sort of definition probe . So {disfmarker} so if {disfmarker} if on Friday it turns out that she really likes it and {disfmarker} and we really like her , then nothing should stop us from sitting down next week and {vocalsound} {comment} getting all the details completely figured out .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So the ideal task um , {pause} will have {pause} whatever I don't know how much the structure of the evolving Bayes - net {vocalsound} {pause} will af affect {disfmarker} Like we wanna {disfmarker} we wanna be able to collect {vocalsound} as much of the variables that are needed for that ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm - yea - some .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? in the course of the task ? Well not all of them but you know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Bu - e e e I 'm even {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this Tango , Enter , Vista is sort of , itself , an ad - hoc scenario .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the basic u um idea behind the uh {pause} data collection was the following . The data we get from Munich is {pause} very command line , simple linguistic stuff .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hardly anything complicated . No metaphors whatsoever .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Not a rich language . So we wanted just to collect data , to get {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {pause} elicits more , uh , that elicits richer language .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And we actually did not want to constrain it too much ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know ? Just see what people say . And then maybe we 'll discover the phenomenon {disfmarker} the phenomena that we want to solve , you know , with {pause} whatever engine we {disfmarker} we come up with . Um . So this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is a parallel track , you know , there {disfmarker} they hopefully meet ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So in other words this data collection is {pause} more general .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but since {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It could {disfmarker} it could {pause} be used for not just this task .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It should tell us , you know , what kind of phenomenon could occur , it should tell us also maybe something about the difference between people who think they speak to a computer versus people who think they speak to a human being", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and the sort of differences there . So it may get us some more information on the human - machine pragmatics , um , that no one knows anything about , as of yesterday . And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} nothing has changed {comment} since then , so . Uh . And secondly , now that of course we have sort of started to lick blood with this , and especially since um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Johno can't stop Tango - ing , {vocalsound} we may actually include , you know , those {disfmarker} those intentions . So now I think we should maybe have at least one navigational task with {disfmarker} with sort of explicit {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "not ex it 's implicit that the person wants to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and maybe some task where it 's more or less explicit that the person wants to take a picture ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or see it or something . So that we can label it . I mean , that 's how we get a corpus that we can label .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Whereas , you know , if we 'd just get data we 'd never know what they actually wanted , we 'd get no cues . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Alrighty .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That was that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So is this the official end of the meeting now ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Looks like it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So what 's \" Economics , the fallacy \" ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ma", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I just randomly {pause} label things . So that has nothing to do with economics or anything .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , really ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe we ought to switch off these things before we continue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Switching o", "speaker": "Grad D" } ]

[ { "content": "Nice .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "to {disfmarker} to handle .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is that good ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , I 've have never handled them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Goats eat cans , to my understanding . Tin cans .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Did we need to do these things ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Could I hit {disfmarker} hit F - seven to do that ? on the {disfmarker} Robert ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , the remote will do it OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Cuz I 'm already up there ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "in control here .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You are in control . Already ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wow , we 're all so high tech here . Yet another p PowerPoint presentation .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} Well it makes it easier {pause} to do", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Certainly does .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So , {pause} we were {disfmarker} Ah !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Johno , where are you ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So , Let 's see . Which one of these buttons will do this for me ? Aha ! OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Should you go back to the first one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Do I wanna go back to the first one ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , {pause} just to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Introduce .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , um {vocalsound} Well , \" the search for the middle layer \" . It 's basically uh talks about uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It just refers to the fact that uh {pause} one of main things we had to do was to {pause} decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I can read ! I 'm kidding .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know , because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to {pause} click on the little {pause} light bulb .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Although I 've {disfmarker} I 've never {disfmarker} I don't know what the light bulb is for . I didn't i install that into my {pause} PowerPoint presentation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Do you wanna try ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ach u", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'd prefer not to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Continue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's a needless good idea . Is that the idea ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh ! OK . Of course . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and then {pause} if I do that it 'll mess everything up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I was wondering .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Is that OK ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Can you maximize the window ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Proceed .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You want me to {disfmarker} Wait , what do you want me to do ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't {disfmarker} doesn't appear ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , It 's OK . It 's {disfmarker} It 'll work .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , fine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Here , let 's see if I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Very nice .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Is that better ? OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I 'll also get rid of this \" Click to add notes \" . OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Perfect .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So then the features we decided {disfmarker} or we decided we were {disfmarker} talked about , right ? Uh the {disfmarker} the prosody , the discourse , {pause} verb choice . You know . We had a list of things like \" to go \" and \" to visit \" and what not . The \" landmark - iness \" of uh {disfmarker} I knew you 'd like that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Nice coinage .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Thank you . uh , of a {disfmarker} of a building . Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line {pause} for space . \" Nice walls \" {vocalsound} which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna {pause} get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it . And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls . The context , which in this case we 've limited to {pause} \" business person \" , \" tourist \" , or {pause} \" unknown \" , the time of day , and \" open to suggestions \" , isn't actually a feature . It 's {pause} \" We are open to suggestions . \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that {vocalsound} uh , in this particular domain {disfmarker} you said {disfmarker} be {disfmarker} i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the {disfmarker} that landmark - iness cor is correlated with", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . We have a separate", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "They 're separate things .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "feature .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "their being nice w", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I either could put \" nice walls \" on its own line or \" open to suggestions \" off the slide .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like you could have a p", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} By \" nice \" you mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} Like you could have a post office with uh {disfmarker} you know , nice murals or something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or one time I was at this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So \" nice walls \" is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh {disfmarker} significant", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But see the thing is , if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Architecturally appealing from the outside .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "or something like that . OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from {disfmarker} Like you m might be able to \" Vista \" it ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? And be able to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Appreciate it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I don't remember w", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It was a long time ago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "There 's a lot of those .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But if you looked at it real close , you could see the {disfmarker} the in intricacy of the {disfmarker} of the walls .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So that count as {disfmarker} counts as a nice wall .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} OK . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Something you want to inspect at close range {pause} because it 's interesting .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Robert ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well there {disfmarker} there is a term {pause} that 's often used . That 's \" saliency \" , or the \" salience \" of an object . And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as \" landmark - iness \" . But it 's really not . I mean an object can be very salient", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but not a landmark at all .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Not a landmark at all . There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . but you can imagine maybe wanting the oth both kinds of things there for different um , goals .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be {disfmarker} Wouldn't {disfmarker} couldn't they also be {disfmarker} They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like {pause} non - tourist - y landmarks and", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or it can be als", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "direct navigational {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "They 're not mutually exclusive ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . Definitely .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying , {pause} because {disfmarker} uh our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , a big flat structure .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And uh , so we {disfmarker} Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that . If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped . I don't know belief - nets very well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well usually , I mean , you know , N {disfmarker} If you have N features , then it 's two to the N {disfmarker} {pause} or exponential in N .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And they wouldn't look pretty . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh . So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was {vocalsound} we have the features that we 've drawn {pause} from the communication of some {disfmarker} Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like \" I 'm {disfmarker} \" the {disfmarker} the abstract idea being \" I am a tourist I want to go {pause} to this place . \" Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and {pause} what they 've said previously and whatnot . And then we have {pause} the means {vocalsound} that they should use . Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist {pause} or {pause} whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines . Or {disfmarker} Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the {disfmarker} from the data , the hidden variables . Yes , good . So then the hidden variables {disfmarker} hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} or th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Want to do Vista ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ? Because {pause} if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a {disfmarker} like a {pause} navigational point to go to another place .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed . Those are all {disfmarker} And then \" Let 's look at the belief - net \" {comment} OK . So that means that I should switch to the {pause} other program . Um right now it 's still kind of {pause} in a toy {pause} version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of {disfmarker} {pause} or {disfmarker} Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No one knows it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So this right {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker} Let 's see . What happens if I maximize this ? There we go . But uh {disfmarker} So . The mode {pause} basically has three different {pause} outputs . The probability {disfmarker} whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter . Um {disfmarker} The \" context \" , we simplified . Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown . \" Verb used \" is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's {disfmarker} it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a {pause} Vista verb .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that one needs a lot of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And are those mutually exclusive sets ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Not at all . That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that needs a lot of work .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {vocalsound} {pause} that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Got it . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so we decided that for the purposes of this {pause} it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Simple .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Stab at it . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Um {disfmarker} Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} that are not coming to my mind right now .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the {disfmarker} sort of , the things that are not directly extracted . Actually , the five things . The \" closed \" is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well i it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "From the {pause} utterance ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's so it sort of is", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Actually , no , wait .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} because have the {disfmarker} the time of day", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It is . OK , \" closed \" sort of is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and the close it just had the {disfmarker} er and what time it closed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker} you know probabilistically depends on the other things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Inferred from the other ones ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} {pause} the actual parse is somewhere up around in here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . So we haven't uh , managed {disfmarker} Like we don't have nodes for \" discourse \" and \" parse \" , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So some of the {disfmarker} the top row of things {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker} what 's \" Disc admission fee \" ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "whether they discuss the admission fees . So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like {vocalsound} \" Can I get to this place ? \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "\" What is the admission fee ? \" . So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "There were {disfmarker} there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but {pause} you know , {pause} we didn't have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That was like our example .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That was the {pause} initial one that we found .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So there are certain cues that are very strong {pause} either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "From the discourse that {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "for one of those . And then in that second row {pause} or whatever that row of Time of Day through that {disfmarker} So all of those {disfmarker} Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of {vocalsound} either world knowledge or situational {pause} things .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One , uh {disfmarker} Uh . {vocalsound} Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Unmark @ @ Time of Day \"", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I m I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . They 're {disfmarker} they 're are a couple of more things .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One thing {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean Uh . I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we {disfmarker} we all uh , agree on what {disfmarker} what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe {vocalsound} what changes we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , th OK . so one thing I {disfmarker} I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh {disfmarker} the \" admission fee \" thing set up . So one {pause} thing that we were thinking was {vocalsound} by doing the layers like this , Uh {disfmarker} we kept um {disfmarker} things from directly affecting the mode {pause} beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the \" admission fee \" going directly to the mode pointing at \" Enter \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? Versus pointing to just at \" tourist \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted {pause} to point at the middle and then {pause} down .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Why is the landmark {disfmarker} OK . The landmark is facing to the tourists . That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Navigational landmarks ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Navigational cue .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "navigational landmarks", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so Mm - hmm . Then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would be {pause} whatever building they referred to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Prosody .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . So let 's see . The variables .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Disc - \" admission fee \" is a binary thing , \" time of day \" is like morning , afternoon , night . Is that the deal ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's how we have it currently set up ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but it could be , {pause} you know , based upon hour", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Whatever granularity .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or {pause} dis we could discrete it {disfmarker} des descret - ize it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but um , we are just using the particular {vocalsound} part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So that 's given in their input .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Right ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so it 's not really all of context . Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply {vocalsound} for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . that 's very nice , huh ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or also unknown ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or un {pause} unknown ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Unknown , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Which is th Which one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but OK . so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , \" are you {disfmarker} \" I mean the {disfmarker} ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , it does .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So then you just have some probabilities over {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Everything is probablistic , and {disfmarker} There 's always {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . {disfmarker} over which which of those it is .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , right . So then landmark is {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . \" Verb used \" is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Rather , let me rephrase that . It {disfmarker} it can take values {vocalsound} in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um \" nice walls \" is binary , \" closed \" is binary \" final destination \" , again {disfmarker} Yeah , all those are binary I guess . And \" mode \" is one of three things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the middle layer is also binary ? No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh . It {disfmarker} Yeah . But all those things without question marks are also binary . Right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Which things ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Nice walls ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Wi", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh . \" Nice walls \" is uh {disfmarker} something that we extract from our world knowledge .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , a Oh yeah . Sorry . It is binary .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's true . Yeah . OK , I see your point .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I gotcha .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , similarly \" closed \" , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , we To do that we would add another uh {disfmarker} value for that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And that would require s updating the probability distribution for \" mode \" as well .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Because it would now have to like uh {disfmarker} take that possibility into account .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Take a conti", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would {disfmarker} that would help you {disfmarker} Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that {disfmarker} that would {vocalsound} {pause} determine {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Other syntactic information you mean ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of the landmark is {disfmarker} is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Usually . I {disfmarker} I don't know if that 's always the case I {disfmarker} I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have . So . Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "that 's always warping on something {disfmarker} some entity ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and um {disfmarker} Uh maybe at this stage we will {disfmarker} we do want to {disfmarker} uh sort of get {disfmarker} uh modifiers in there", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I want to get to the church quickly ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That would be a cue .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "what 's the fastest way", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , correct .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Um . OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Excellent . Do we have anything else to say about this ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We can do a little demo .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh the Yeah , we could . But the demo doesn't work very well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} We can do a demo in the sense that we can um , {vocalsound} just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Observe nodes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Go ahead .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK . Dat - dat - dah . What should I observe ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Just se set a few of them . You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time . Just like uh , {vocalsound} maybe the fact that they use a certain verb {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Actually forget the verb .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "just uh {disfmarker} I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the place has nice walls", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and it 's night .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "it 's starting to grow on me", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And the time of day is night ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , no wait . That {disfmarker} that doesn't uh {disfmarker} it 's not really consistent . They don't discuss the admission fee . Make that false .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And it 's night .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , they {disfmarker} OK . Oh whoops . I forgot to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That didn't work .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ach !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd like to do that again .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . That seems kind of redundant but .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That all you want ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So let 's see . I want {pause} to query ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" Go \" and , right , \" query \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ? the mode . OK , and then on here {disfmarker} So let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So that {pause} is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So slightly {pause} biased {pause} toward \" Tango \" ing", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "If it 's night time , {pause} they have not discussed admission fee , and the n walls are nice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So , yeah . I guess that {pause} sort of makes sense . The reason I say the {pause} demo doesn't work very well is yesterday we uh {disfmarker} {pause} observed everything in favor of {pause} taking a tour , and it came up as \" Tango \" , right ? Over and over again . We couldn't {disfmarker} we couldn't figure out how to turn it off of \" Tango \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It loves the Tango .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Huh ! Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , that 's obviously just to do with our probabilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like , {pause} we totally hand - tuned the probabilities ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right . We were like {vocalsound} \" hmm , well if the person does this and this and this , let 's say forty percent for this ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "fifty per \" Like , you know . So obviously that 's gonna happen .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Maybe the bias toward \" Tango \" ing was yours , then ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "that 's {disfmarker} that 's at {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} So we have to like fit the probabilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Spent my youth practicing the tango de la muerte .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , the real case ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "However you know , it {disfmarker} The purpose was not really , at this stage , to come up with meaningful probabilities but to get thinking about that hidden middle layer . And so th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We would actually {disfmarker} I guess once we look at the data more we 'll get more hidden {pause} nodes ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I 'd like to see more . Not because it would {pause} expedite the probabilities , cuz it wouldn't . It would actually slow that down tremendously .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . Well , yeah , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Not that much though . Only a little early .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I think we should have uh {disfmarker} exponentially more {pause} middle nodes than features we 've extracted . I 'm ju I 'm just jo", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . Are \" doing business \" versus \" tourist \" {disfmarker} They refer to your current task . Like {disfmarker} like current thing you want to do at this moment .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker} that 's an interesting point . Whether you 're {disfmarker} It 's whether {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And are th", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think it 's more like \" Are you are tourist ? are you in Ham - like Heidelberg for a {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , so , I thought that was directly given by the context {pause} switch .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's a different thing . What if the context , which is not set , but still they say things like , \" I want to go {pause} uh , see the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the castle and uh , et cetera . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well the I kind of {pause} thought of \" doing business \" as more of running an errand type thing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Business on the other hand is , uh , definitely what you 're doing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So if you run out of cash as a tourist , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you need to go to the AT", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So {pause} i wi th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , I see , you may have a task . wh you have to go get money and so you are doing business at that stage .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" How do I get to the bank ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I see . Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And that 'll affect whether you want to enter or you if you {disfmarker} kinda thing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So the \" tourists \" node {pause} should be {pause} um , very consistent with the context node . Right ? If you say that 's more their {disfmarker} in general what their background is .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think this context node is a bit of a {disfmarker} I don't know , like in d Uh {disfmarker} Do we {pause} wanna have {disfmarker} Like it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are you assuming that or not ? Like is that to be {disfmarker} I mean if that 's accurate then that would determine tourist node .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If the context were to set one way or another , that like strongly uh um , says something about whether {disfmarker} whether or not they 're tourists .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So what 's interesting is when it 's not {disfmarker} when it 's set to \" unknown \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "We - what set the {disfmarker} they set the context to \" unknown \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right now we haven't observed it , so I guess it 's sort of averaging over all those three possibilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But yes , you can set it to un \" unknown \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And if we now do {disfmarker} leave everything else as is the results should be the same ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well no , because we {disfmarker} Th - the way we set the probabilities {vocalsound} might not have {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's an {disfmarker} it 's an issue , right ? Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Pretty much the same ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is . So the issue is that um in belief - nets , it 's not common to do what we did of like having , you know , a d bunch of values and then \" unknown \" as an actual value . What 's common is you just like don't observe the variable ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right , and then just marginalizes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We didn't do this because we felt that there 'd {disfmarker} I guess we were thinking in terms of a switch that actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We were thi Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We were th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} I don't know y what the right thing is to do for that . I 'm not {disfmarker} I don't know if I totally am happy with {vocalsound} the way it is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why don't we {disfmarker} Can we , um {disfmarker} How long would it take to {disfmarker} to add another {pause} node on the observatory and , um , play around with it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Another node on what ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , well it depends on how many things it 's linked to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's just say make it really simple . If we create {pause} something that for example would be um {disfmarker} So th some things can be landmarks in your sense but {pause} they {pause} can never be entered ? So for example s a statue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Good point .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So {pause} maybe we wanna have \" landmark \" {pause} meaning now \" enterable landmark \" versus , um something that 's simply just a vista point , for example .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah ? uh , a statue or um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So basically it 's addressing a variable that 's \" enterable or not \" . So like an \" enterable , question mark \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Also {disfmarker} {pause} you know , didn't we have a {pause} size as one ? The size of the landmark .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . Not when we were doing this ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but I guess at some point we did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For some reason I had that {disfmarker} OK , that was a thought that I had at one point but then went away .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you want to have a {disfmarker} a node for like whether or not it can be entered ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , for example , if we include that , yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "um , accessibility or something , yeah ? \" Is it {disfmarker} Can it be entered ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "then of course , this is {pause} sort of binary as well .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And then um , there 's also the question whether it may be entered . In the sense that , you know , if it 's {pause} Tom {disfmarker} the house of Tom Cruise , you know , it 's enterable but you may not enter it . You know ? You 're not allowed to .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Unless you are , whatever , his {disfmarker} his divorce lawyer or something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ? and um {disfmarker} And these are very observable sort of from the {disfmarker} from the ontology sort of things .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Way Does it actually help to distinguish between those two cases though ? Whether it 's practically speaking enterable , or actually physically enterable {pause} or not ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "y y If {disfmarker} If you 're running an errand you maybe more likely to be able to enter places that are usually not {vocalsound} al w you 're not usually {disfmarker} not allowed to uh m", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It seems like it would for uh , uh {pause} determining whether they wanna go into it or not .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well I can see why {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Cuz they {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Let 's get this uh b clearer . S so it 's matrix between if it 's not enterable , period .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Whether it 's a {disfmarker} Whether it 's a public building , and whether it 's {disfmarker} actually has a door .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "This is sort of uh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So Tom Cruise 's house is {pause} not a public building", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but it has a door . But the thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , sh explain to me why it 's necessary {pause} to distinguish between whether something has a door and is {pause} not public . Or , if something {disfmarker} It seems like it 's equivalent to say that it doesn't have a door a {pause} and it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or \" not public \" and \" not a door \" are equivalent things ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it seems like in practice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah . So we would have {disfmarker} What does it mean , then , that we have to {disfmarker} we have an object type statue . That really is an object type . So there is {disfmarker} there 's gonna be a bunch of statues .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And then we have , for example , an object type , {pause} hmm , that 's a hotel . How about hotels ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , the most famous building in Heidelberg is actually a hotel . It 's the hotel Zum Ritter , which is the only Renaissance building in Heidelberg that was left after {pause} the big destruction and for the Thirty Years War , blah - blah - blah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Does it have nice walls ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It has wonderful walls . Um - And lots of detail , c and carvings , engravings and so forth ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Excellent .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so . But , um , it 's still an unlikely candidate for the Tango mode I {pause} must say . But . Um . So {disfmarker} s So if you are a d Well it 's very tricky . So I guess your question is {disfmarker} so far I have no really arg no real argument why to differentiate between statues as {disfmarker} statues and houses of celebrities , from that point of view . Huh . OK . Let {disfmarker} Let 's do a {disfmarker} Can we add , just so I can see how it 's done , uh , a \" has door \" {pause} property or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What would it , uh , connect to ? Like , what would , uh , it affect ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , I think , um , it might affect {disfmarker} Oh actually it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it wouldn't affect any of our nodes , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "What I was thinking was if you had a {disfmarker} like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh it 's {disfmarker} it affects th The \" doing business \" is certainly not .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You could affect {disfmarker} {pause} Theoretically you could affect \" doing business \" with \" has door \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It should , um , inhibit that ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know if JavaBayes is nice about that . It might be that if you add a new thing pointing to a variable , you just like {disfmarker} it just overwrites everything . But {pause} you can check .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , {pause} we have it saved . So . {vocalsound} We can rel open it up again .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . It 's true .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The {pause} safety net .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think you could just add it . I mean , I have before OK . Whew !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well that 's fine , but we have to see the function now . Has it become all point fives or not ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Let 's see . So this is \" has door \" Uh , true , false . That 's acceptable . And I want to edit the function going to that , right ? Oh no .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . This is fine ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . It was fine .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "this business .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "added this one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What would be nice if it {disfmarker} is if it just like kept the old function for either value but . Nope . Didn't {pause} do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh wait , it might be {disfmarker} Did we w Yes , that 's not good .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's {pause} kind of annoying .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , so just dis dismiss everything . Close it and {disfmarker} and load up the old state so {pause} it doesn't screw {disfmarker} screw that up .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Let 's see . Oops .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe you can read in ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ha - So have you used JavaBayes a lot ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yes . Really {vocalsound} I ha I 've {disfmarker} I haven't used it a lot and I haven't used it in the last you know many months so", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "um , uh , we can ask someone .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It might be worth uh {disfmarker} asking around .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Like , we looked at sort of uh {disfmarker} a page that had like a bunch of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Srini {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , S I guess he 'd be the person .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Srini 's the one to ask I would say .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um . He might know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean in a way this is a lot of good features in Java it 's cra has a GUI and it 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I guess those are the main two things . It does learning , it has {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No it doesn't , actually .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I didn't think it did learning .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe it did a little bit of learning ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't remember .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh right . Maybe you 're right . OK . Right . But uh {disfmarker} it 's free .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Which is w quite positive , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But uh , yeah . Maybe another thing that uh {disfmarker} But I mean its interface is not the greatest . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But actually it had an interface .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "A lot of them were like , you know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Command line .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What is the c code ? Can w can we see that ? How do you write the code", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The c", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "or do you actually never have to write any code there ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . There is actually a text file that you can edit . But it 's {disfmarker} You don't have to do that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's like an XML format for {pause} Bayes - nets .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is it XML ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The - there is one . I don't know if this uses it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . No this doesn't use it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I didn't think it did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You can look at the text file .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But do you have it here ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , yes I do actually .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , maybe you don't .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let me see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yes , of course .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh man ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like , there 's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I didn't n {pause} Is there an ampersand in DOS ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Nope . Just s l start up a new DOS .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We - That 's alright . I can probably double cli click on it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "n uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's see , come on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 'll ask you what you {disfmarker} what it wants {disfmarker} what you want to open it with and see what BAT , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "One of these days , it should open this , theoretically .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Go {disfmarker} Right mouse . Open with .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh there we go .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} Oh !", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe it was just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh ! W Ah , it was dead . To the world .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "God !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Through the old Notepad . That 's my favorite editor .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I like {disfmarker} I like Word Pad because it has the uh {disfmarker} the returns ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wordpad ? I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "the carriage returns on some of them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You know how they get \" auto - fills \" I guess ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mmm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or whatever you call it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Anyway , there it is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So this is sort of LISP - y ? No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It just basically looks like it just specifies a bunch of", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's how actual probability tables are specified .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "As , like , lists of numbers .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So theoretically you could edit that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It just that {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {pause} they 're not very friendly .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah the ordering isn't very clear on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you 'd have to like figure out {disfmarker} Like you have to go and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . The layout {pause} of the table .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Actually we could write a program that could generate this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah you could .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You could .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We were doing it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah we can maybe write an interface th for uh entering probability distributions easily , something like {disfmarker} like a little script . That might {vocalsound} be worth it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And that might do .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I actually seem to recall Srini complaining about something to do with Entering probability so this is probably", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The other thing is it is in Java", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We could {pause} manipulate the source {pause} itself ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Do you have the true source files or just the class ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I don't know if he actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . we do", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Does he {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I saw directory called \" source \" ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I didn't e", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} Yeah . Go up one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Up one . Ah yes , good .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Source \" . That 's {disfmarker} that 's quite nice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I don't know if it actually manipulate the source , though . That might be a bit complicated .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think it might {disfmarker} it might be simpler to just {pause} have a script that , you know {disfmarker} It 's , like , friendly ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The d the data tables .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it allows you enter things well .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But if th if there is an XML {pause} file that {disfmarker} or format that it can also read {disfmarker} I mean it just reads this , right ? When it starts .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah I know there is an {disfmarker} I was looking on the we web page and he 's updated it for an XML version of I guess Bayes - nets . There 's a Bayes - net spec for {disfmarker} in XML .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "He 's {disfmarker} Like this guy has ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The JavaBayes guy ? So {disfmarker} but , e he doesn't use it . So in what sense has he updated it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well th you can either {disfmarker} you ca or you can read both .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh . I see .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "To my understanding .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . That would be awesome .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Because uh {disfmarker} Well at least the {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I could have misread the web page , I have a habit of doing that , but .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , wonderful .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So you got more slides ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Do I have more slides ? Um yes , one more . \" Future Work \" . I think every presentation have a should have a \" Future Work \" slide . But uh it 's basically {disfmarker} we already talked about all this stuff , so .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . The additional thing is I guess learning the probabilities , {pause} also . E That 's maybe , I don't know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh that 's future future work .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Does {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Very future .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And of course if you have a presentation that doesn't {disfmarker} have something that doesn't work at all , then you have \" What I learned \" , as a slide .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Can't you have both ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You could . My first approach failed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What I learned . OK , so I think that uh our presentation 's finished .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I know what I like about these meetings is one person will nod , and then the next person will nod , and then it just goes all the way around the room .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So the uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I missed my turn .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No I {disfmarker} Earlier I went {nonvocalsound} and Bhaskara went {nonvocalsound} and you did it . You did it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's like yawning .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's like yawning .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And this announcement was in stereo .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ha .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So this means um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Should I pull up the {pause} net again ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Could you put the {disfmarker} the um , net up again ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yes . There we go .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And actually I was {disfmarker} cuz I got a wireless mike on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So a more general thing than \" discussed admission fee \" um , could be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering whether the context , the background context of the discourse {vocalsound} might be {disfmarker} I don't know , if there 's a way to define it or maybe you know generalize it some way um , there might be other cues that , say , um , in the last few utterances there has been something that has strongly associated with say one of the particular modes uh , I don't know if that might be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . I think we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "uh , and {disfmarker} and into that node would be various {disfmarker} various things that {disfmarker} that could have specifically come up .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think a {disfmarker} a sort of general strategy here {disfmarker} You know , this is {disfmarker} this is excellent because {disfmarker} um it gets you thinking along these terms {disfmarker} is that maybe we ob we could observe a couple of um discourse phenomena such as the admission fee , and something else and something else , that happened in the discourse before .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} let 's make those four . And maybe there are two um {disfmarker} So maybe this could be sort of a separate region of the net , {pause} which has two {disfmarker} {pause} has it 's own middle layer . Maybe this , you know , has some {pause} kind {pause} of um , funky thing that di if this and this may influence these hidden nodes of the discourse which is maybe something that is uh , a more general version of the actual {pause} phenomenon that you can observe . So things that point towards {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So instead of single node , for {pause} like , if they said the word \" admission fee \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "\" admission fee \" , or maybe , you know , \" how much to enter \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or you know something , other cues .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Opening hours or something like that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly . That would all f funnel into one node that would {pause} constitute entrance requirements or something like that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So \" pay a visit \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "uh uh d", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean it sort of get into plan recognition kinds of things in the discourse . I mean that 's like the bigger um , version of it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly . Yeah ? And then maybe there are some discourse acts if they happened before , um it 's more for um a cue that the person actually wants to get somewhere else and that you are in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a route um , sort of proceeding past these things , so this would be just something that {disfmarker} where you want to pass it . Hmm ? Is that it ? However these are of course then the {disfmarker} the nodes , the observed nodes , for your middle layer . So this {pause} again points to \" final destination \" , \" doing business \" , \" tourist hurry \" and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah ? And so then we can say , \" OK . we have a whole {pause} region {disfmarker} \" {vocalsound} in a e", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's a whole set of discourse related cues to your middle layer .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly . And this is just {disfmarker} then just one .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So e because at the end the more we um {disfmarker} add , you know , the more spider - web - ish it 's going to become in the middle and the more of hand editing . It 's going to get very ugly . But with this way we could say \" OK , these are the {pause} discourse phenomena . They ra may have there own hidden layer {pause} that points to some of {pause} the {disfmarker} the real hidden layer , um or the general hidden layer .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And the same we will be able to do for syntactic information , the verbs used , the object types used , modifiers . And maybe there 's a hidden layer for that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so forth and so forth . Then we have context .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So essentially a lot of those nodes can be expanded into little Bayes - nets of their own .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Precisely . So .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One thing that 's kind of been bugging me when I {disfmarker} more I look at this is that the {disfmarker} I guess , the fact that the {disfmarker} there 's a complete separation between the {pause} observed features and in the output .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean , it makes it cleaner , but then uh {disfmarker} I mean .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For instance if the discourse does {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What do you mean by that ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well for instance , the \" discourse admission fee \" {pause} node seems like it should point directly to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or increase the probability of \" enter {pause} directly \" versus \" going there via tourist \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or we could like add more , uh , sort of middle nodes . Like we could add a node like do they want to enter it , which is affected by admission fee and by whether it 's closed and by whether it has a door .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it 's like {disfmarker} There are {disfmarker} Those are the two options . Either like make an arrow directly or put a new node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "that makes sense .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And if it {disfmarker} if you do it {disfmarker} If you could connect it too hard you may get such phenomenon that {disfmarker} like \" So how much has it cost to enter ? \" and the answer is two hundred fifty dollars , and then the persons says um \" Yeah I want to see it . \" Yeah ? meaning \" It 's way out of my budget \" um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "There are places in Germany where it costs two hundred fifty dollars to enter ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , nothing comes to mind . Without thinking too hard . Um , maybe , yeah of course , um opera premiers .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or any good old Pink Floyd concert .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I see . If you want to see \" The Magic Flute \" or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or maybe um , a famous restaurant . or , I don't know . There are various things that you might w not want to eat a {pause} meal there but {pause} your own table .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The Spagos of Heidelberg .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think that the h I mean nothing beats the {disfmarker} the admission charge prices in Japan . So there , two hundred dollars is {disfmarker} is moderate for getting into a discotheque . You know . Then again , everything else is free then once you 're ins in there .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Really .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Food and drink and so forth . So . I mean . But i you know , i we can {disfmarker} Something {disfmarker} Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and u the answer {pause} is s if we {disfmarker} um , you know , um {disfmarker} still , based on that result is never going to enter that building .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know ? Because it 's just too expensive .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I think I see . So the discourse refers to \" admission fee \" but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . you have to have some notion of not just {disfmarker} I mean there 's a {disfmarker} there 's change across several turns of discourse", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so {vocalsound} I don't know how {disfmarker} if any of this was discussed {disfmarker} but how i if it all this is going to interact with {vocalsound} whatever general {vocalsound} uh , other {disfmarker} other discourse processing that might be happen .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . {comment} {nonvocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What sort of discourse {pause} processing is uh {disfmarker} are the {disfmarker} How much is built into SmartKom and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It works like this . The uh , um {disfmarker} I mean . The first thing we get is that {pause} already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention , right ? simply by parsing it . And this um {disfmarker} m won't differentiate between all modes , yeah ? but at least it 'll tell us \" OK here we have something that {disfmarker} somebody that wants to go someplace , now it 's up for us to figure out what kind of going there is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} {pause} is happening , and um , if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything {disfmarker} all the information is needed , what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it 's handed on to the discourse history which is , um o one of the most elaborate {disfmarker} elaborate modules . It 's {disfmarker} it 's actually the {disfmarker} the whole memory of the entire system , that knows what {disfmarker} wh who said what , which was {disfmarker} what was presented . It helps an an anaphora resolution and it {disfmarker} and it fills in all the structures that are omitted , so , {pause} um , because you say \" OK , {pause} how can I get to the castle ? \" Oh , how {disfmarker} how much is it ? \" and um \" yeah I would like uh {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} to g let 's do it \" and so forth . So even without an a ana {pause} anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened . so {vocalsound} whenever the uh , um person is not actually rejecting what happened before , so as in \" No I really don't want to see that movie . I 'd rather stay home and watch TV \" um {disfmarker} What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is {disfmarker} is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step , by the discourse model {disfmarker} discourse {pause} model , Yeah , that 's what it 's called . and , um , it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues . So a person pointing to something on the screen , you know , the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a rather huge {vocalsound} {disfmarker} huge thing but um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} um {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} we can {pause} sort of {disfmarker} It has a very clear interface . We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and {disfmarker} and the turn before that or you know how {pause} deep we want to search", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} which is a question . How deep do we want to sear , you know ? Um {disfmarker} but we should {pause} try to keep in mind that , you know , we 're doing this sort of for research , so we {disfmarker} we should find a limit that 's reasonable and not go , you know , all the way back to Adam and Eve . You know , did that person ever discuss admissions fee {disfmarker} fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty {disfmarker} pretty you know {vocalsound} concise and {disfmarker} Anyway .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the {pause} use of \" admission fee discussion \" as a cue for entry , {vocalsound} {pause} is thinking about the plans that various people might have . Like all the different {vocalsound} sort of general schemas that they might be following OK . This person is um , finding out information about this thing in order to go {pause} in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place {pause} in order to do business . Um , because then {pause} anything that 's a cue for one of the steps {pause} would be slight evidence for that overall plan . Um , I don't know . They 're {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have {vocalsound} {pause} you know , some idea at each turn of agent doing something , \" OK , wha what plans is this a {disfmarker} consistent with ? \" and then get s some more information and then you see {pause} \" here 's a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into \" . It {disfmarker} it might be useful here too .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know how you know you 'd have to {vocalsound} {pause} figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} u u", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's in the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these plan schemas . I mean there are some {disfmarker} some of them are extremely elaborate , you know . \" What do you need {disfmarker} need to buy a ticket ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You know ? and it {disfmarker} it 's fifty steps ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "huh ? just for buying a ticket {pause} at a ticket counter , you know , and {disfmarker} and maybe that 's helpful to look at it {disfmarker} to look at those . It 's amazing what human beings can do . W when we talked uh we had the example , you know , of you being uh {disfmarker} a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands , says {vocalsound} New York and you say Track seven , huh ? And it 's because you know that that person actually is following , you know {disfmarker} You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps , you know , without any information other than \" New York \" , huh ? inferring everything from the context . So , works . Um , even though there is probably no train from here to New York , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mmm . Not direct .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You 'd uh probably have to transfer in Chicago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But uh {disfmarker} it 's possible . Um , no you probably have to transfer also somewhere else . Right ? Is that t San Francisco , Chicago ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is that possible ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One time I saw a report on trains , and I think there is a l I don't know if {disfmarker} I thought there was a line that went from somewhere , maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but there was like a California to Chicago line of some sort .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I could be wrong though . It was a while ago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The Transcontinental Railroad , doesn't that ring a bell ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but I don't know if it 's still {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think it has to exist somewhere .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "They might have blown it up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well it never went all the way , right ? I mean you always had to change trains at Omaha ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well most of the way .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? One track ended there and the other one started at {disfmarker} five meters away from that", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well . {pause} You seem to know better than we do so .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yeah ? Has anybody ever been on an Amtrak ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I have . But not transcontinentally .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'm frightened by Amtrak myself .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ? Why ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I just {disfmarker} They seem to have a lot of accidents on the Amtrak .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Their reputation is very bad .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "huh ? It 's not maybe reality .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's not like German trains . Like German trains are really great so .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} you know , I don't know whether it 's {disfmarker} which ones are safer , you know , statistically .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , but they 're faster .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Much faster . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And there 's much more of them . Yeah , they 're Yeah , it 's {pause} way better", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah I used {disfmarker} um Amtrak quite a bit on the east coast and I was surprised . It was actually OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You know , on Boston New York ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "New York Rhode Island ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "whatever ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 've done that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Boston .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} That 's {pause} a different issue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "This is going to be an interesting transcript .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I want to see what it does with uh \" landmark - iness \" . That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's all say it a few more times .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It 'd help it figure it out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Just kidding . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So by the way tha that structure {pause} that Robert drew on the board was like more um , {vocalsound} {pause} cue - type - based , right , here 's like we 're gonna {vocalsound} segment off a bit of stuff that comes from discourse and then {pause} some of the things we 're talking about here are more {disfmarker} you know , we mentioned maybe {pause} if they talk about {pause} um , I don't know , entering or som you know like they might be more task - based .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I don't know if there {disfmarker} There 's obviously some {disfmarker} m more than one way of organizing {pause} the variables into something", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think that um {disfmarker} What you guys did is really nicely sketching out different tasks , and maybe some of their conditions .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One task is more likely you 're in a hurry when you do that kind of s doing business ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and less in a hurry when uh {disfmarker} you 're a tourist Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} tourists may have {disfmarker} never have final destinations , you know because they are eternally traveling around so {vocalsound} maybe what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what happened {disfmarker} what might happen is that we do get this sort of task - based middle layer ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and then we 'll get these sub - middle layers , that are more cue - based .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . That feed into those ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Nah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Might be {disfmarker} might be a nice dichotomy of {disfmarker} of the world . So , um I suggest w to {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} to proceed with this in {disfmarker} in the sense that {pause} maybe throughout this week the three of us will {disfmarker} will talk some more about maybe segmenting off different regions , and we make up some {disfmarker} {pause} some toy a observable \" nodes \" {disfmarker} is that what th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Refined y re just refine the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What 's the technical term ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . For which ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For the uh {disfmarker} nodes that are observable ? The \" outer layer \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Just observable nodes ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The features ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "evidence nodes ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know , whatever you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Feature ma make up some features for those {disfmarker} Identify {pause} four regions ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "maybe make up some features for each region and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uh , uh {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} middle layer for those . And then these should then connect somehow to the more plan - based deep space", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Basically just refine {pause} some of the more general nodes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep . The - they {disfmarker} they will be aud ad - hoc for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for some time to come .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is totally like {disfmarker} The probabilities and all are completely ad - hoc . We need to look at all of them . I mean but , they 're even like {vocalsound} {pause} I mean like , close to the end we were like , uh , you know we were like uh {vocalsound} really ad - hoc .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's a even distribution . Like , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right ? Cuz if it 's like , uh {disfmarker} If it 's four things coming in , right ? And , say , some of them have like three possibilities and all that . So you 're thinking like {disfmarker} like a hundred and forty four or something {pause} possible things {disfmarker} numbers to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} That 's terrible .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Some of them are completely absurd too , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want to enter , but it 's closed ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's night time , you know there are tourists and all this weird stuff happens at the line up and you 're like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , the only like possible interpretation is that they are like {disfmarker} come here just to rob the museum or {pause} something to that effect .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "confused .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "In which case you 're supposed to alert the authorities , {vocalsound} and see appropriate action .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , another thing to do , um , is also to , um {disfmarker} I guess to ask around people about other Bayes - net packages . Is Srini gonna be {pause} at the meeting tomorrow , do you know ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The day after tomorrow .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Wait {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Quite possibly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Wednesday .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Day after tomorrow .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , oh , sorry .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sorry , Wednesday ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Who 's talking on Wednesday ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Maybe we can ask him about it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I haven't {disfmarker} J Jerry never sent out a {disfmarker} sent out an email , did he , ever ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . But he mentioned at the last meeting that someone was going to be talking , I forget who .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , isn't Ben ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ben ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ben , then ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think it 's Ben actually ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ben .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "yeah , um , giving his job talk I think . um , Sorry . I was just reading the screen .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So the uh {disfmarker} That will be one {disfmarker} one thing we could do . I actually uh , have {disfmarker} Um , also we can uh , start looking at the SmartKom tables and I will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I actually wanted to show that {pause} to you guys now but um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Do you want to {pause} trade ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , no I {disfmarker} I actually made a mistake because it {disfmarker} it fell asleep and when Linux falls asleep on my machine it 's {disfmarker} it doesn't wake up ever , so I had to reboot", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , no .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And if I reboot without a network , I will not be able to start SmartKom , because I need to have a network .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So we 'll do that t maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But . OK . But once you start {disfmarker} sart start SmartKom you can be on {disfmarker} You don't have to be on a network anymore . Is that the deal ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah , interesting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why does SmartKom need a network ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it looks up some stuff that , {pause} you know , is {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} is in the {disfmarker} written by the operating system only if it {disfmarker} if you get a DHCP request , so it {disfmarker} you know , my computer does not know its IP address , you know ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know . So . Unless it boots up with networking .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's plugged in . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And I don't have an IP address , they can't look up {disfmarker} they don't know who localhost is , and so forth and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Always fun . But it 's a , um , simple solution . We can just um , go downstairs and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and look at this , but maybe not today . The other thing um {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} oh yeah , OK , I have to report {vocalsound} um , data collection . We interviewed Fey ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "She 's willing to do it , meaning be the wizard for the data collection , also {vocalsound} maybe transcribe a little bit , if she has to , but also recruiting subjects , organizing them , and so forth . So that looks good . Jerry however suggested that we should uh have a trial run with her , see whether she can actually do all the uh spontaneous , eloquent and creativeness that we uh expect of the wizard . And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So who would be the subject {pause} of this trial run ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Pardon me ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Who {disfmarker} Will there be a {disfmarker} Is one {disfmarker} Is you {disfmarker} one of you gonna be the subject ? Like are you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um Liz also volunteered to be the first subject , {vocalsound} which I think might be even better than us guys .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One of us , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "If we do need her for the technical stuff , then of course one of you has to sort of uh {disfmarker} jump in .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I like how we 've {disfmarker} you guys have successfully narrowed it down . \" Is one of you going to be the subject ? \" Is one of you {disfmarker} jump in .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Reference . I haven't done it yet .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well I just figured it has to be someone who 's , um , familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard , so we can , uh , see if they 're you know good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh plants ? e u someone who can plant difficult things .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean that 's what we wanna {pause} check , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , in this case it 's a p it 's a {pause} sort of testing of the wizard rather than of the subject .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Isn't that what it is ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yes w we {disfmarker} we would like to test the wizard , but {vocalsound} you know , if we take a subject that is completely unfamiliar with the task , or any of the set up , we get a more realistic", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I guess that would be reasonable .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know , set up as {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know . That 's probably a good enough test of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sort of having an actively antagonistic , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . That might be a little unfair . Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 'm sure if we uh , {disfmarker} You think there 's a chance we might need Liz for , whatever , the technical side of things ? I 'm sure we can get {pause} other people around who don't know anything {pause} um , if we want another subject .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You know . Like I can drag Ben into it or something . Although he might cause problems but . So , is it a experimental setup for the um , data collection {pause} totally {pause} ready {disfmarker} determined ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I like that . \" Test the wizard . \" I want that on a T - shirt .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} experimental setup u on the technical issue yes , except we st I think we still need uh {disfmarker} a recording device for the wizard , just a tape recorder that 's running in a room .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} in terms of specifying the scenario , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} we 've gotten a little further", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but um {disfmarker} we wanted to wait until we know who is the wizard , and have the wizard partake in the {pause} ultimate {pause} sort of definition probe . So {disfmarker} so if {disfmarker} if on Friday it turns out that she really likes it and {disfmarker} and we really like her , then nothing should stop us from sitting down next week and {vocalsound} {comment} getting all the details completely figured out .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So the ideal task um , {pause} will have {pause} whatever I don't know how much the structure of the evolving Bayes - net {vocalsound} {pause} will af affect {disfmarker} Like we wanna {disfmarker} we wanna be able to collect {vocalsound} as much of the variables that are needed for that ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm - yea - some .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? in the course of the task ? Well not all of them but you know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Bu - e e e I 'm even {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this Tango , Enter , Vista is sort of , itself , an ad - hoc scenario .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the basic u um idea behind the uh {pause} data collection was the following . The data we get from Munich is {pause} very command line , simple linguistic stuff .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hardly anything complicated . No metaphors whatsoever .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Not a rich language . So we wanted just to collect data , to get {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {pause} elicits more , uh , that elicits richer language .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And we actually did not want to constrain it too much ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know ? Just see what people say . And then maybe we 'll discover the phenomenon {disfmarker} the phenomena that we want to solve , you know , with {pause} whatever engine we {disfmarker} we come up with . Um . So this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is a parallel track , you know , there {disfmarker} they hopefully meet ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So in other words this data collection is {pause} more general .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but since {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It could {disfmarker} it could {pause} be used for not just this task .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It should tell us , you know , what kind of phenomenon could occur , it should tell us also maybe something about the difference between people who think they speak to a computer versus people who think they speak to a human being", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and the sort of differences there . So it may get us some more information on the human - machine pragmatics , um , that no one knows anything about , as of yesterday . And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} nothing has changed {comment} since then , so . Uh . And secondly , now that of course we have sort of started to lick blood with this , and especially since um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Johno can't stop Tango - ing , {vocalsound} we may actually include , you know , those {disfmarker} those intentions . So now I think we should maybe have at least one navigational task with {disfmarker} with sort of explicit {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "not ex it 's implicit that the person wants to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and maybe some task where it 's more or less explicit that the person wants to take a picture ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or see it or something . So that we can label it . I mean , that 's how we get a corpus that we can label .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Whereas , you know , if we 'd just get data we 'd never know what they actually wanted , we 'd get no cues . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Alrighty .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That was that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So is this the official end of the meeting now ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Looks like it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So what 's \" Economics , the fallacy \" ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ma", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I just randomly {pause} label things . So that has nothing to do with economics or anything .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , really ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe we ought to switch off these things before we continue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Switching o", "speaker": "Grad D" } ]

[ { "content": "Nice .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "to {disfmarker} to handle .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is that good ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , I 've have never handled them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Goats eat cans , to my understanding . Tin cans .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Did we need to do these things ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Could I hit {disfmarker} hit F - seven to do that ? on the {disfmarker} Robert ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , the remote will do it OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Cuz I 'm already up there ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "in control here .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You are in control . Already ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wow , we 're all so high tech here . Yet another p PowerPoint presentation .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} Well it makes it easier {pause} to do", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Certainly does .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So , {pause} we were {disfmarker} Ah !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Johno , where are you ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So , Let 's see . Which one of these buttons will do this for me ? Aha ! OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Should you go back to the first one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Do I wanna go back to the first one ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , {pause} just to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Introduce .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , um {vocalsound} Well , \" the search for the middle layer \" . It 's basically uh talks about uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It just refers to the fact that uh {pause} one of main things we had to do was to {pause} decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I can read ! I 'm kidding .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know , because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to {pause} click on the little {pause} light bulb .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Although I 've {disfmarker} I 've never {disfmarker} I don't know what the light bulb is for . I didn't i install that into my {pause} PowerPoint presentation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Do you wanna try ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ach u", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'd prefer not to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Continue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's a needless good idea . Is that the idea ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh ! OK . Of course . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and then {pause} if I do that it 'll mess everything up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I was wondering .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Is that OK ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Can you maximize the window ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Proceed .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You want me to {disfmarker} Wait , what do you want me to do ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't {disfmarker} doesn't appear ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , It 's OK . It 's {disfmarker} It 'll work .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , fine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Here , let 's see if I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Very nice .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Is that better ? OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I 'll also get rid of this \" Click to add notes \" . OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Perfect .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So then the features we decided {disfmarker} or we decided we were {disfmarker} talked about , right ? Uh the {disfmarker} the prosody , the discourse , {pause} verb choice . You know . We had a list of things like \" to go \" and \" to visit \" and what not . The \" landmark - iness \" of uh {disfmarker} I knew you 'd like that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Nice coinage .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Thank you . uh , of a {disfmarker} of a building . Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line {pause} for space . \" Nice walls \" {vocalsound} which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna {pause} get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it . And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls . The context , which in this case we 've limited to {pause} \" business person \" , \" tourist \" , or {pause} \" unknown \" , the time of day , and \" open to suggestions \" , isn't actually a feature . It 's {pause} \" We are open to suggestions . \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that {vocalsound} uh , in this particular domain {disfmarker} you said {disfmarker} be {disfmarker} i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the {disfmarker} that landmark - iness cor is correlated with", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . We have a separate", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "They 're separate things .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "feature .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "their being nice w", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I either could put \" nice walls \" on its own line or \" open to suggestions \" off the slide .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like you could have a p", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} By \" nice \" you mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} Like you could have a post office with uh {disfmarker} you know , nice murals or something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or one time I was at this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So \" nice walls \" is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh {disfmarker} significant", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But see the thing is , if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Architecturally appealing from the outside .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "or something like that . OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from {disfmarker} Like you m might be able to \" Vista \" it ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? And be able to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Appreciate it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I don't remember w", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It was a long time ago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "There 's a lot of those .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But if you looked at it real close , you could see the {disfmarker} the in intricacy of the {disfmarker} of the walls .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So that count as {disfmarker} counts as a nice wall .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} OK . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Something you want to inspect at close range {pause} because it 's interesting .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Robert ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well there {disfmarker} there is a term {pause} that 's often used . That 's \" saliency \" , or the \" salience \" of an object . And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as \" landmark - iness \" . But it 's really not . I mean an object can be very salient", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but not a landmark at all .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Not a landmark at all . There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . but you can imagine maybe wanting the oth both kinds of things there for different um , goals .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be {disfmarker} Wouldn't {disfmarker} couldn't they also be {disfmarker} They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like {pause} non - tourist - y landmarks and", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or it can be als", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "direct navigational {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "They 're not mutually exclusive ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . Definitely .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying , {pause} because {disfmarker} uh our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , a big flat structure .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And uh , so we {disfmarker} Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that . If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped . I don't know belief - nets very well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well usually , I mean , you know , N {disfmarker} If you have N features , then it 's two to the N {disfmarker} {pause} or exponential in N .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And they wouldn't look pretty . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh . So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was {vocalsound} we have the features that we 've drawn {pause} from the communication of some {disfmarker} Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like \" I 'm {disfmarker} \" the {disfmarker} the abstract idea being \" I am a tourist I want to go {pause} to this place . \" Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and {pause} what they 've said previously and whatnot . And then we have {pause} the means {vocalsound} that they should use . Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist {pause} or {pause} whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines . Or {disfmarker} Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the {disfmarker} from the data , the hidden variables . Yes , good . So then the hidden variables {disfmarker} hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} or th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Want to do Vista ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ? Because {pause} if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a {disfmarker} like a {pause} navigational point to go to another place .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed . Those are all {disfmarker} And then \" Let 's look at the belief - net \" {comment} OK . So that means that I should switch to the {pause} other program . Um right now it 's still kind of {pause} in a toy {pause} version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of {disfmarker} {pause} or {disfmarker} Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No one knows it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So this right {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker} Let 's see . What happens if I maximize this ? There we go . But uh {disfmarker} So . The mode {pause} basically has three different {pause} outputs . The probability {disfmarker} whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter . Um {disfmarker} The \" context \" , we simplified . Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown . \" Verb used \" is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's {disfmarker} it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a {pause} Vista verb .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that one needs a lot of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And are those mutually exclusive sets ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Not at all . That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that needs a lot of work .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {vocalsound} {pause} that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Got it . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so we decided that for the purposes of this {pause} it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Simple .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Stab at it . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Um {disfmarker} Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} that are not coming to my mind right now .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the {disfmarker} sort of , the things that are not directly extracted . Actually , the five things . The \" closed \" is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well i it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "From the {pause} utterance ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's so it sort of is", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Actually , no , wait .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} because have the {disfmarker} the time of day", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It is . OK , \" closed \" sort of is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and the close it just had the {disfmarker} er and what time it closed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker} you know probabilistically depends on the other things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Inferred from the other ones ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} {pause} the actual parse is somewhere up around in here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . So we haven't uh , managed {disfmarker} Like we don't have nodes for \" discourse \" and \" parse \" , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So some of the {disfmarker} the top row of things {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker} what 's \" Disc admission fee \" ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "whether they discuss the admission fees . So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like {vocalsound} \" Can I get to this place ? \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "\" What is the admission fee ? \" . So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "There were {disfmarker} there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but {pause} you know , {pause} we didn't have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That was like our example .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That was the {pause} initial one that we found .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So there are certain cues that are very strong {pause} either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "From the discourse that {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "for one of those . And then in that second row {pause} or whatever that row of Time of Day through that {disfmarker} So all of those {disfmarker} Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of {vocalsound} either world knowledge or situational {pause} things .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One , uh {disfmarker} Uh . {vocalsound} Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Unmark @ @ Time of Day \"", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I m I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . They 're {disfmarker} they 're are a couple of more things .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One thing {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean Uh . I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we {disfmarker} we all uh , agree on what {disfmarker} what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe {vocalsound} what changes we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , th OK . so one thing I {disfmarker} I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh {disfmarker} the \" admission fee \" thing set up . So one {pause} thing that we were thinking was {vocalsound} by doing the layers like this , Uh {disfmarker} we kept um {disfmarker} things from directly affecting the mode {pause} beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the \" admission fee \" going directly to the mode pointing at \" Enter \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? Versus pointing to just at \" tourist \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted {pause} to point at the middle and then {pause} down .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Why is the landmark {disfmarker} OK . The landmark is facing to the tourists . That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Navigational landmarks ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Navigational cue .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "navigational landmarks", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so Mm - hmm . Then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would be {pause} whatever building they referred to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Prosody .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . So let 's see . The variables .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Disc - \" admission fee \" is a binary thing , \" time of day \" is like morning , afternoon , night . Is that the deal ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's how we have it currently set up ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but it could be , {pause} you know , based upon hour", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Whatever granularity .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or {pause} dis we could discrete it {disfmarker} des descret - ize it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but um , we are just using the particular {vocalsound} part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So that 's given in their input .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Right ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so it 's not really all of context . Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply {vocalsound} for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . that 's very nice , huh ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or also unknown ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or un {pause} unknown ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Unknown , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Which is th Which one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but OK . so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , \" are you {disfmarker} \" I mean the {disfmarker} ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , it does .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So then you just have some probabilities over {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Everything is probablistic , and {disfmarker} There 's always {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . {disfmarker} over which which of those it is .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , right . So then landmark is {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . \" Verb used \" is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Rather , let me rephrase that . It {disfmarker} it can take values {vocalsound} in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um \" nice walls \" is binary , \" closed \" is binary \" final destination \" , again {disfmarker} Yeah , all those are binary I guess . And \" mode \" is one of three things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the middle layer is also binary ? No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh . It {disfmarker} Yeah . But all those things without question marks are also binary . Right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Which things ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Nice walls ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Wi", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh . \" Nice walls \" is uh {disfmarker} something that we extract from our world knowledge .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , a Oh yeah . Sorry . It is binary .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's true . Yeah . OK , I see your point .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I gotcha .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , similarly \" closed \" , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , we To do that we would add another uh {disfmarker} value for that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And that would require s updating the probability distribution for \" mode \" as well .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Because it would now have to like uh {disfmarker} take that possibility into account .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Take a conti", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would {disfmarker} that would help you {disfmarker} Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that {disfmarker} that would {vocalsound} {pause} determine {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Other syntactic information you mean ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of the landmark is {disfmarker} is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Usually . I {disfmarker} I don't know if that 's always the case I {disfmarker} I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have . So . Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "that 's always warping on something {disfmarker} some entity ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and um {disfmarker} Uh maybe at this stage we will {disfmarker} we do want to {disfmarker} uh sort of get {disfmarker} uh modifiers in there", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I want to get to the church quickly ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That would be a cue .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "what 's the fastest way", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , correct .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Um . OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Excellent . Do we have anything else to say about this ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We can do a little demo .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh the Yeah , we could . But the demo doesn't work very well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} We can do a demo in the sense that we can um , {vocalsound} just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Observe nodes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Go ahead .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK . Dat - dat - dah . What should I observe ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Just se set a few of them . You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time . Just like uh , {vocalsound} maybe the fact that they use a certain verb {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Actually forget the verb .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "just uh {disfmarker} I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the place has nice walls", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and it 's night .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "it 's starting to grow on me", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And the time of day is night ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , no wait . That {disfmarker} that doesn't uh {disfmarker} it 's not really consistent . They don't discuss the admission fee . Make that false .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And it 's night .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , they {disfmarker} OK . Oh whoops . I forgot to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That didn't work .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ach !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd like to do that again .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . That seems kind of redundant but .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That all you want ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So let 's see . I want {pause} to query ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" Go \" and , right , \" query \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ? the mode . OK , and then on here {disfmarker} So let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So that {pause} is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So slightly {pause} biased {pause} toward \" Tango \" ing", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "If it 's night time , {pause} they have not discussed admission fee , and the n walls are nice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So , yeah . I guess that {pause} sort of makes sense . The reason I say the {pause} demo doesn't work very well is yesterday we uh {disfmarker} {pause} observed everything in favor of {pause} taking a tour , and it came up as \" Tango \" , right ? Over and over again . We couldn't {disfmarker} we couldn't figure out how to turn it off of \" Tango \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It loves the Tango .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Huh ! Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , that 's obviously just to do with our probabilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like , {pause} we totally hand - tuned the probabilities ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right . We were like {vocalsound} \" hmm , well if the person does this and this and this , let 's say forty percent for this ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "fifty per \" Like , you know . So obviously that 's gonna happen .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Maybe the bias toward \" Tango \" ing was yours , then ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "that 's {disfmarker} that 's at {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} So we have to like fit the probabilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Spent my youth practicing the tango de la muerte .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , the real case ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "However you know , it {disfmarker} The purpose was not really , at this stage , to come up with meaningful probabilities but to get thinking about that hidden middle layer . And so th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We would actually {disfmarker} I guess once we look at the data more we 'll get more hidden {pause} nodes ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I 'd like to see more . Not because it would {pause} expedite the probabilities , cuz it wouldn't . It would actually slow that down tremendously .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . Well , yeah , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Not that much though . Only a little early .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I think we should have uh {disfmarker} exponentially more {pause} middle nodes than features we 've extracted . I 'm ju I 'm just jo", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . Are \" doing business \" versus \" tourist \" {disfmarker} They refer to your current task . Like {disfmarker} like current thing you want to do at this moment .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker} that 's an interesting point . Whether you 're {disfmarker} It 's whether {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And are th", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think it 's more like \" Are you are tourist ? are you in Ham - like Heidelberg for a {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , so , I thought that was directly given by the context {pause} switch .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's a different thing . What if the context , which is not set , but still they say things like , \" I want to go {pause} uh , see the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the castle and uh , et cetera . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well the I kind of {pause} thought of \" doing business \" as more of running an errand type thing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Business on the other hand is , uh , definitely what you 're doing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So if you run out of cash as a tourist , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you need to go to the AT", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So {pause} i wi th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , I see , you may have a task . wh you have to go get money and so you are doing business at that stage .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" How do I get to the bank ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I see . Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And that 'll affect whether you want to enter or you if you {disfmarker} kinda thing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So the \" tourists \" node {pause} should be {pause} um , very consistent with the context node . Right ? If you say that 's more their {disfmarker} in general what their background is .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think this context node is a bit of a {disfmarker} I don't know , like in d Uh {disfmarker} Do we {pause} wanna have {disfmarker} Like it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are you assuming that or not ? Like is that to be {disfmarker} I mean if that 's accurate then that would determine tourist node .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If the context were to set one way or another , that like strongly uh um , says something about whether {disfmarker} whether or not they 're tourists .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So what 's interesting is when it 's not {disfmarker} when it 's set to \" unknown \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "We - what set the {disfmarker} they set the context to \" unknown \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right now we haven't observed it , so I guess it 's sort of averaging over all those three possibilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But yes , you can set it to un \" unknown \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And if we now do {disfmarker} leave everything else as is the results should be the same ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well no , because we {disfmarker} Th - the way we set the probabilities {vocalsound} might not have {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's an {disfmarker} it 's an issue , right ? Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Pretty much the same ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is . So the issue is that um in belief - nets , it 's not common to do what we did of like having , you know , a d bunch of values and then \" unknown \" as an actual value . What 's common is you just like don't observe the variable ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right , and then just marginalizes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We didn't do this because we felt that there 'd {disfmarker} I guess we were thinking in terms of a switch that actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We were thi Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We were th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} I don't know y what the right thing is to do for that . I 'm not {disfmarker} I don't know if I totally am happy with {vocalsound} the way it is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why don't we {disfmarker} Can we , um {disfmarker} How long would it take to {disfmarker} to add another {pause} node on the observatory and , um , play around with it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Another node on what ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , well it depends on how many things it 's linked to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's just say make it really simple . If we create {pause} something that for example would be um {disfmarker} So th some things can be landmarks in your sense but {pause} they {pause} can never be entered ? So for example s a statue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Good point .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So {pause} maybe we wanna have \" landmark \" {pause} meaning now \" enterable landmark \" versus , um something that 's simply just a vista point , for example .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah ? uh , a statue or um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So basically it 's addressing a variable that 's \" enterable or not \" . So like an \" enterable , question mark \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Also {disfmarker} {pause} you know , didn't we have a {pause} size as one ? The size of the landmark .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . Not when we were doing this ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but I guess at some point we did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For some reason I had that {disfmarker} OK , that was a thought that I had at one point but then went away .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you want to have a {disfmarker} a node for like whether or not it can be entered ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , for example , if we include that , yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "um , accessibility or something , yeah ? \" Is it {disfmarker} Can it be entered ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "then of course , this is {pause} sort of binary as well .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And then um , there 's also the question whether it may be entered . In the sense that , you know , if it 's {pause} Tom {disfmarker} the house of Tom Cruise , you know , it 's enterable but you may not enter it . You know ? You 're not allowed to .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Unless you are , whatever , his {disfmarker} his divorce lawyer or something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ? and um {disfmarker} And these are very observable sort of from the {disfmarker} from the ontology sort of things .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Way Does it actually help to distinguish between those two cases though ? Whether it 's practically speaking enterable , or actually physically enterable {pause} or not ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "y y If {disfmarker} If you 're running an errand you maybe more likely to be able to enter places that are usually not {vocalsound} al w you 're not usually {disfmarker} not allowed to uh m", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It seems like it would for uh , uh {pause} determining whether they wanna go into it or not .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well I can see why {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Cuz they {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Let 's get this uh b clearer . S so it 's matrix between if it 's not enterable , period .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Whether it 's a {disfmarker} Whether it 's a public building , and whether it 's {disfmarker} actually has a door .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "This is sort of uh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So Tom Cruise 's house is {pause} not a public building", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but it has a door . But the thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , sh explain to me why it 's necessary {pause} to distinguish between whether something has a door and is {pause} not public . Or , if something {disfmarker} It seems like it 's equivalent to say that it doesn't have a door a {pause} and it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or \" not public \" and \" not a door \" are equivalent things ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it seems like in practice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah . So we would have {disfmarker} What does it mean , then , that we have to {disfmarker} we have an object type statue . That really is an object type . So there is {disfmarker} there 's gonna be a bunch of statues .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And then we have , for example , an object type , {pause} hmm , that 's a hotel . How about hotels ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , the most famous building in Heidelberg is actually a hotel . It 's the hotel Zum Ritter , which is the only Renaissance building in Heidelberg that was left after {pause} the big destruction and for the Thirty Years War , blah - blah - blah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Does it have nice walls ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It has wonderful walls . Um - And lots of detail , c and carvings , engravings and so forth ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Excellent .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so . But , um , it 's still an unlikely candidate for the Tango mode I {pause} must say . But . Um . So {disfmarker} s So if you are a d Well it 's very tricky . So I guess your question is {disfmarker} so far I have no really arg no real argument why to differentiate between statues as {disfmarker} statues and houses of celebrities , from that point of view . Huh . OK . Let {disfmarker} Let 's do a {disfmarker} Can we add , just so I can see how it 's done , uh , a \" has door \" {pause} property or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What would it , uh , connect to ? Like , what would , uh , it affect ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , I think , um , it might affect {disfmarker} Oh actually it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it wouldn't affect any of our nodes , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "What I was thinking was if you had a {disfmarker} like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh it 's {disfmarker} it affects th The \" doing business \" is certainly not .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You could affect {disfmarker} {pause} Theoretically you could affect \" doing business \" with \" has door \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It should , um , inhibit that ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know if JavaBayes is nice about that . It might be that if you add a new thing pointing to a variable , you just like {disfmarker} it just overwrites everything . But {pause} you can check .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , {pause} we have it saved . So . {vocalsound} We can rel open it up again .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . It 's true .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The {pause} safety net .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think you could just add it . I mean , I have before OK . Whew !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well that 's fine , but we have to see the function now . Has it become all point fives or not ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Let 's see . So this is \" has door \" Uh , true , false . That 's acceptable . And I want to edit the function going to that , right ? Oh no .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . This is fine ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . It was fine .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "this business .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "added this one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What would be nice if it {disfmarker} is if it just like kept the old function for either value but . Nope . Didn't {pause} do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh wait , it might be {disfmarker} Did we w Yes , that 's not good .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's {pause} kind of annoying .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , so just dis dismiss everything . Close it and {disfmarker} and load up the old state so {pause} it doesn't screw {disfmarker} screw that up .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Let 's see . Oops .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe you can read in ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ha - So have you used JavaBayes a lot ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yes . Really {vocalsound} I ha I 've {disfmarker} I haven't used it a lot and I haven't used it in the last you know many months so", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "um , uh , we can ask someone .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It might be worth uh {disfmarker} asking around .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Like , we looked at sort of uh {disfmarker} a page that had like a bunch of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Srini {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , S I guess he 'd be the person .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Srini 's the one to ask I would say .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um . He might know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean in a way this is a lot of good features in Java it 's cra has a GUI and it 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I guess those are the main two things . It does learning , it has {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No it doesn't , actually .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I didn't think it did learning .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe it did a little bit of learning ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't remember .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh right . Maybe you 're right . OK . Right . But uh {disfmarker} it 's free .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Which is w quite positive , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But uh , yeah . Maybe another thing that uh {disfmarker} But I mean its interface is not the greatest . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But actually it had an interface .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "A lot of them were like , you know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Command line .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What is the c code ? Can w can we see that ? How do you write the code", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The c", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "or do you actually never have to write any code there ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . There is actually a text file that you can edit . But it 's {disfmarker} You don't have to do that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's like an XML format for {pause} Bayes - nets .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is it XML ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The - there is one . I don't know if this uses it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . No this doesn't use it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I didn't think it did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You can look at the text file .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But do you have it here ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , yes I do actually .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , maybe you don't .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let me see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yes , of course .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh man ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like , there 's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I didn't n {pause} Is there an ampersand in DOS ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Nope . Just s l start up a new DOS .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We - That 's alright . I can probably double cli click on it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "n uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's see , come on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 'll ask you what you {disfmarker} what it wants {disfmarker} what you want to open it with and see what BAT , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "One of these days , it should open this , theoretically .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Go {disfmarker} Right mouse . Open with .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh there we go .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} Oh !", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe it was just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh ! W Ah , it was dead . To the world .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "God !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Through the old Notepad . That 's my favorite editor .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I like {disfmarker} I like Word Pad because it has the uh {disfmarker} the returns ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wordpad ? I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "the carriage returns on some of them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You know how they get \" auto - fills \" I guess ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mmm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or whatever you call it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Anyway , there it is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So this is sort of LISP - y ? No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It just basically looks like it just specifies a bunch of", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's how actual probability tables are specified .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "As , like , lists of numbers .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So theoretically you could edit that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It just that {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {pause} they 're not very friendly .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah the ordering isn't very clear on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you 'd have to like figure out {disfmarker} Like you have to go and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . The layout {pause} of the table .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Actually we could write a program that could generate this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah you could .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You could .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We were doing it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah we can maybe write an interface th for uh entering probability distributions easily , something like {disfmarker} like a little script . That might {vocalsound} be worth it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And that might do .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I actually seem to recall Srini complaining about something to do with Entering probability so this is probably", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The other thing is it is in Java", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We could {pause} manipulate the source {pause} itself ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Do you have the true source files or just the class ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I don't know if he actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . we do", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Does he {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I saw directory called \" source \" ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I didn't e", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} Yeah . Go up one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Up one . Ah yes , good .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Source \" . That 's {disfmarker} that 's quite nice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I don't know if it actually manipulate the source , though . That might be a bit complicated .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think it might {disfmarker} it might be simpler to just {pause} have a script that , you know {disfmarker} It 's , like , friendly ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The d the data tables .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it allows you enter things well .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But if th if there is an XML {pause} file that {disfmarker} or format that it can also read {disfmarker} I mean it just reads this , right ? When it starts .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah I know there is an {disfmarker} I was looking on the we web page and he 's updated it for an XML version of I guess Bayes - nets . There 's a Bayes - net spec for {disfmarker} in XML .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "He 's {disfmarker} Like this guy has ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The JavaBayes guy ? So {disfmarker} but , e he doesn't use it . So in what sense has he updated it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well th you can either {disfmarker} you ca or you can read both .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh . I see .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "To my understanding .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . That would be awesome .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Because uh {disfmarker} Well at least the {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I could have misread the web page , I have a habit of doing that , but .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , wonderful .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So you got more slides ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Do I have more slides ? Um yes , one more . \" Future Work \" . I think every presentation have a should have a \" Future Work \" slide . But uh it 's basically {disfmarker} we already talked about all this stuff , so .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . The additional thing is I guess learning the probabilities , {pause} also . E That 's maybe , I don't know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh that 's future future work .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Does {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Very future .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And of course if you have a presentation that doesn't {disfmarker} have something that doesn't work at all , then you have \" What I learned \" , as a slide .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Can't you have both ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You could . My first approach failed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What I learned . OK , so I think that uh our presentation 's finished .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I know what I like about these meetings is one person will nod , and then the next person will nod , and then it just goes all the way around the room .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So the uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I missed my turn .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No I {disfmarker} Earlier I went {nonvocalsound} and Bhaskara went {nonvocalsound} and you did it . You did it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's like yawning .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's like yawning .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And this announcement was in stereo .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ha .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So this means um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Should I pull up the {pause} net again ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Could you put the {disfmarker} the um , net up again ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yes . There we go .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And actually I was {disfmarker} cuz I got a wireless mike on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So a more general thing than \" discussed admission fee \" um , could be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering whether the context , the background context of the discourse {vocalsound} might be {disfmarker} I don't know , if there 's a way to define it or maybe you know generalize it some way um , there might be other cues that , say , um , in the last few utterances there has been something that has strongly associated with say one of the particular modes uh , I don't know if that might be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . I think we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "uh , and {disfmarker} and into that node would be various {disfmarker} various things that {disfmarker} that could have specifically come up .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think a {disfmarker} a sort of general strategy here {disfmarker} You know , this is {disfmarker} this is excellent because {disfmarker} um it gets you thinking along these terms {disfmarker} is that maybe we ob we could observe a couple of um discourse phenomena such as the admission fee , and something else and something else , that happened in the discourse before .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} let 's make those four . And maybe there are two um {disfmarker} So maybe this could be sort of a separate region of the net , {pause} which has two {disfmarker} {pause} has it 's own middle layer . Maybe this , you know , has some {pause} kind {pause} of um , funky thing that di if this and this may influence these hidden nodes of the discourse which is maybe something that is uh , a more general version of the actual {pause} phenomenon that you can observe . So things that point towards {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So instead of single node , for {pause} like , if they said the word \" admission fee \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "\" admission fee \" , or maybe , you know , \" how much to enter \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or you know something , other cues .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Opening hours or something like that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly . That would all f funnel into one node that would {pause} constitute entrance requirements or something like that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So \" pay a visit \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "uh uh d", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean it sort of get into plan recognition kinds of things in the discourse . I mean that 's like the bigger um , version of it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly . Yeah ? And then maybe there are some discourse acts if they happened before , um it 's more for um a cue that the person actually wants to get somewhere else and that you are in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a route um , sort of proceeding past these things , so this would be just something that {disfmarker} where you want to pass it . Hmm ? Is that it ? However these are of course then the {disfmarker} the nodes , the observed nodes , for your middle layer . So this {pause} again points to \" final destination \" , \" doing business \" , \" tourist hurry \" and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah ? And so then we can say , \" OK . we have a whole {pause} region {disfmarker} \" {vocalsound} in a e", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's a whole set of discourse related cues to your middle layer .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly . And this is just {disfmarker} then just one .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So e because at the end the more we um {disfmarker} add , you know , the more spider - web - ish it 's going to become in the middle and the more of hand editing . It 's going to get very ugly . But with this way we could say \" OK , these are the {pause} discourse phenomena . They ra may have there own hidden layer {pause} that points to some of {pause} the {disfmarker} the real hidden layer , um or the general hidden layer .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And the same we will be able to do for syntactic information , the verbs used , the object types used , modifiers . And maybe there 's a hidden layer for that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so forth and so forth . Then we have context .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So essentially a lot of those nodes can be expanded into little Bayes - nets of their own .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Precisely . So .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One thing that 's kind of been bugging me when I {disfmarker} more I look at this is that the {disfmarker} I guess , the fact that the {disfmarker} there 's a complete separation between the {pause} observed features and in the output .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean , it makes it cleaner , but then uh {disfmarker} I mean .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For instance if the discourse does {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What do you mean by that ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well for instance , the \" discourse admission fee \" {pause} node seems like it should point directly to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or increase the probability of \" enter {pause} directly \" versus \" going there via tourist \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or we could like add more , uh , sort of middle nodes . Like we could add a node like do they want to enter it , which is affected by admission fee and by whether it 's closed and by whether it has a door .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it 's like {disfmarker} There are {disfmarker} Those are the two options . Either like make an arrow directly or put a new node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "that makes sense .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And if it {disfmarker} if you do it {disfmarker} If you could connect it too hard you may get such phenomenon that {disfmarker} like \" So how much has it cost to enter ? \" and the answer is two hundred fifty dollars , and then the persons says um \" Yeah I want to see it . \" Yeah ? meaning \" It 's way out of my budget \" um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "There are places in Germany where it costs two hundred fifty dollars to enter ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , nothing comes to mind . Without thinking too hard . Um , maybe , yeah of course , um opera premiers .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or any good old Pink Floyd concert .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I see . If you want to see \" The Magic Flute \" or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or maybe um , a famous restaurant . or , I don't know . There are various things that you might w not want to eat a {pause} meal there but {pause} your own table .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The Spagos of Heidelberg .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think that the h I mean nothing beats the {disfmarker} the admission charge prices in Japan . So there , two hundred dollars is {disfmarker} is moderate for getting into a discotheque . You know . Then again , everything else is free then once you 're ins in there .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Really .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Food and drink and so forth . So . I mean . But i you know , i we can {disfmarker} Something {disfmarker} Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and u the answer {pause} is s if we {disfmarker} um , you know , um {disfmarker} still , based on that result is never going to enter that building .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know ? Because it 's just too expensive .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I think I see . So the discourse refers to \" admission fee \" but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . you have to have some notion of not just {disfmarker} I mean there 's a {disfmarker} there 's change across several turns of discourse", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so {vocalsound} I don't know how {disfmarker} if any of this was discussed {disfmarker} but how i if it all this is going to interact with {vocalsound} whatever general {vocalsound} uh , other {disfmarker} other discourse processing that might be happen .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . {comment} {nonvocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What sort of discourse {pause} processing is uh {disfmarker} are the {disfmarker} How much is built into SmartKom and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It works like this . The uh , um {disfmarker} I mean . The first thing we get is that {pause} already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention , right ? simply by parsing it . And this um {disfmarker} m won't differentiate between all modes , yeah ? but at least it 'll tell us \" OK here we have something that {disfmarker} somebody that wants to go someplace , now it 's up for us to figure out what kind of going there is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} {pause} is happening , and um , if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything {disfmarker} all the information is needed , what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it 's handed on to the discourse history which is , um o one of the most elaborate {disfmarker} elaborate modules . It 's {disfmarker} it 's actually the {disfmarker} the whole memory of the entire system , that knows what {disfmarker} wh who said what , which was {disfmarker} what was presented . It helps an an anaphora resolution and it {disfmarker} and it fills in all the structures that are omitted , so , {pause} um , because you say \" OK , {pause} how can I get to the castle ? \" Oh , how {disfmarker} how much is it ? \" and um \" yeah I would like uh {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} to g let 's do it \" and so forth . So even without an a ana {pause} anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened . so {vocalsound} whenever the uh , um person is not actually rejecting what happened before , so as in \" No I really don't want to see that movie . I 'd rather stay home and watch TV \" um {disfmarker} What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is {disfmarker} is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step , by the discourse model {disfmarker} discourse {pause} model , Yeah , that 's what it 's called . and , um , it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues . So a person pointing to something on the screen , you know , the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a rather huge {vocalsound} {disfmarker} huge thing but um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} um {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} we can {pause} sort of {disfmarker} It has a very clear interface . We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and {disfmarker} and the turn before that or you know how {pause} deep we want to search", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} which is a question . How deep do we want to sear , you know ? Um {disfmarker} but we should {pause} try to keep in mind that , you know , we 're doing this sort of for research , so we {disfmarker} we should find a limit that 's reasonable and not go , you know , all the way back to Adam and Eve . You know , did that person ever discuss admissions fee {disfmarker} fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty {disfmarker} pretty you know {vocalsound} concise and {disfmarker} Anyway .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the {pause} use of \" admission fee discussion \" as a cue for entry , {vocalsound} {pause} is thinking about the plans that various people might have . Like all the different {vocalsound} sort of general schemas that they might be following OK . This person is um , finding out information about this thing in order to go {pause} in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place {pause} in order to do business . Um , because then {pause} anything that 's a cue for one of the steps {pause} would be slight evidence for that overall plan . Um , I don't know . They 're {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have {vocalsound} {pause} you know , some idea at each turn of agent doing something , \" OK , wha what plans is this a {disfmarker} consistent with ? \" and then get s some more information and then you see {pause} \" here 's a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into \" . It {disfmarker} it might be useful here too .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know how you know you 'd have to {vocalsound} {pause} figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} u u", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's in the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these plan schemas . I mean there are some {disfmarker} some of them are extremely elaborate , you know . \" What do you need {disfmarker} need to buy a ticket ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You know ? and it {disfmarker} it 's fifty steps ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "huh ? just for buying a ticket {pause} at a ticket counter , you know , and {disfmarker} and maybe that 's helpful to look at it {disfmarker} to look at those . It 's amazing what human beings can do . W when we talked uh we had the example , you know , of you being uh {disfmarker} a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands , says {vocalsound} New York and you say Track seven , huh ? And it 's because you know that that person actually is following , you know {disfmarker} You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps , you know , without any information other than \" New York \" , huh ? inferring everything from the context . So , works . Um , even though there is probably no train from here to New York , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mmm . Not direct .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You 'd uh probably have to transfer in Chicago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But uh {disfmarker} it 's possible . Um , no you probably have to transfer also somewhere else . Right ? Is that t San Francisco , Chicago ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is that possible ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One time I saw a report on trains , and I think there is a l I don't know if {disfmarker} I thought there was a line that went from somewhere , maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but there was like a California to Chicago line of some sort .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I could be wrong though . It was a while ago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The Transcontinental Railroad , doesn't that ring a bell ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but I don't know if it 's still {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think it has to exist somewhere .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "They might have blown it up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well it never went all the way , right ? I mean you always had to change trains at Omaha ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well most of the way .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? One track ended there and the other one started at {disfmarker} five meters away from that", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well . {pause} You seem to know better than we do so .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yeah ? Has anybody ever been on an Amtrak ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I have . But not transcontinentally .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'm frightened by Amtrak myself .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ? Why ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I just {disfmarker} They seem to have a lot of accidents on the Amtrak .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Their reputation is very bad .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "huh ? It 's not maybe reality .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's not like German trains . Like German trains are really great so .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} you know , I don't know whether it 's {disfmarker} which ones are safer , you know , statistically .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , but they 're faster .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Much faster . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And there 's much more of them . Yeah , they 're Yeah , it 's {pause} way better", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah I used {disfmarker} um Amtrak quite a bit on the east coast and I was surprised . It was actually OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You know , on Boston New York ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "New York Rhode Island ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "whatever ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 've done that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Boston .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} That 's {pause} a different issue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "This is going to be an interesting transcript .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I want to see what it does with uh \" landmark - iness \" . That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's all say it a few more times .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It 'd help it figure it out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Just kidding . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So by the way tha that structure {pause} that Robert drew on the board was like more um , {vocalsound} {pause} cue - type - based , right , here 's like we 're gonna {vocalsound} segment off a bit of stuff that comes from discourse and then {pause} some of the things we 're talking about here are more {disfmarker} you know , we mentioned maybe {pause} if they talk about {pause} um , I don't know , entering or som you know like they might be more task - based .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I don't know if there {disfmarker} There 's obviously some {disfmarker} m more than one way of organizing {pause} the variables into something", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think that um {disfmarker} What you guys did is really nicely sketching out different tasks , and maybe some of their conditions .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One task is more likely you 're in a hurry when you do that kind of s doing business ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and less in a hurry when uh {disfmarker} you 're a tourist Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} tourists may have {disfmarker} never have final destinations , you know because they are eternally traveling around so {vocalsound} maybe what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what happened {disfmarker} what might happen is that we do get this sort of task - based middle layer ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and then we 'll get these sub - middle layers , that are more cue - based .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . That feed into those ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Nah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Might be {disfmarker} might be a nice dichotomy of {disfmarker} of the world . So , um I suggest w to {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} to proceed with this in {disfmarker} in the sense that {pause} maybe throughout this week the three of us will {disfmarker} will talk some more about maybe segmenting off different regions , and we make up some {disfmarker} {pause} some toy a observable \" nodes \" {disfmarker} is that what th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Refined y re just refine the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What 's the technical term ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . For which ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For the uh {disfmarker} nodes that are observable ? The \" outer layer \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Just observable nodes ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The features ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "evidence nodes ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know , whatever you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Feature ma make up some features for those {disfmarker} Identify {pause} four regions ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "maybe make up some features for each region and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uh , uh {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} middle layer for those . And then these should then connect somehow to the more plan - based deep space", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Basically just refine {pause} some of the more general nodes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep . The - they {disfmarker} they will be aud ad - hoc for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for some time to come .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is totally like {disfmarker} The probabilities and all are completely ad - hoc . We need to look at all of them . I mean but , they 're even like {vocalsound} {pause} I mean like , close to the end we were like , uh , you know we were like uh {vocalsound} really ad - hoc .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's a even distribution . Like , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right ? Cuz if it 's like , uh {disfmarker} If it 's four things coming in , right ? And , say , some of them have like three possibilities and all that . So you 're thinking like {disfmarker} like a hundred and forty four or something {pause} possible things {disfmarker} numbers to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} That 's terrible .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Some of them are completely absurd too , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want to enter , but it 's closed ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's night time , you know there are tourists and all this weird stuff happens at the line up and you 're like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , the only like possible interpretation is that they are like {disfmarker} come here just to rob the museum or {pause} something to that effect .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "confused .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "In which case you 're supposed to alert the authorities , {vocalsound} and see appropriate action .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , another thing to do , um , is also to , um {disfmarker} I guess to ask around people about other Bayes - net packages . Is Srini gonna be {pause} at the meeting tomorrow , do you know ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The day after tomorrow .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Wait {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Quite possibly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Wednesday .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Day after tomorrow .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , oh , sorry .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sorry , Wednesday ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Who 's talking on Wednesday ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Maybe we can ask him about it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I haven't {disfmarker} J Jerry never sent out a {disfmarker} sent out an email , did he , ever ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . But he mentioned at the last meeting that someone was going to be talking , I forget who .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , isn't Ben ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ben ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ben , then ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think it 's Ben actually ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ben .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "yeah , um , giving his job talk I think . um , Sorry . I was just reading the screen .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So the uh {disfmarker} That will be one {disfmarker} one thing we could do . I actually uh , have {disfmarker} Um , also we can uh , start looking at the SmartKom tables and I will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I actually wanted to show that {pause} to you guys now but um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Do you want to {pause} trade ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , no I {disfmarker} I actually made a mistake because it {disfmarker} it fell asleep and when Linux falls asleep on my machine it 's {disfmarker} it doesn't wake up ever , so I had to reboot", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , no .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And if I reboot without a network , I will not be able to start SmartKom , because I need to have a network .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So we 'll do that t maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But . OK . But once you start {disfmarker} sart start SmartKom you can be on {disfmarker} You don't have to be on a network anymore . Is that the deal ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah , interesting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why does SmartKom need a network ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it looks up some stuff that , {pause} you know , is {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} is in the {disfmarker} written by the operating system only if it {disfmarker} if you get a DHCP request , so it {disfmarker} you know , my computer does not know its IP address , you know ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know . So . Unless it boots up with networking .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's plugged in . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And I don't have an IP address , they can't look up {disfmarker} they don't know who localhost is , and so forth and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Always fun . But it 's a , um , simple solution . We can just um , go downstairs and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and look at this , but maybe not today . The other thing um {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} oh yeah , OK , I have to report {vocalsound} um , data collection . We interviewed Fey ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "She 's willing to do it , meaning be the wizard for the data collection , also {vocalsound} maybe transcribe a little bit , if she has to , but also recruiting subjects , organizing them , and so forth . So that looks good . Jerry however suggested that we should uh have a trial run with her , see whether she can actually do all the uh spontaneous , eloquent and creativeness that we uh expect of the wizard . And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So who would be the subject {pause} of this trial run ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Pardon me ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Who {disfmarker} Will there be a {disfmarker} Is one {disfmarker} Is you {disfmarker} one of you gonna be the subject ? Like are you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um Liz also volunteered to be the first subject , {vocalsound} which I think might be even better than us guys .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One of us , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "If we do need her for the technical stuff , then of course one of you has to sort of uh {disfmarker} jump in .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I like how we 've {disfmarker} you guys have successfully narrowed it down . \" Is one of you going to be the subject ? \" Is one of you {disfmarker} jump in .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Reference . I haven't done it yet .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well I just figured it has to be someone who 's , um , familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard , so we can , uh , see if they 're you know good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh plants ? e u someone who can plant difficult things .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean that 's what we wanna {pause} check , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , in this case it 's a p it 's a {pause} sort of testing of the wizard rather than of the subject .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Isn't that what it is ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yes w we {disfmarker} we would like to test the wizard , but {vocalsound} you know , if we take a subject that is completely unfamiliar with the task , or any of the set up , we get a more realistic", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I guess that would be reasonable .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know , set up as {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know . That 's probably a good enough test of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sort of having an actively antagonistic , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . That might be a little unfair . Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 'm sure if we uh , {disfmarker} You think there 's a chance we might need Liz for , whatever , the technical side of things ? I 'm sure we can get {pause} other people around who don't know anything {pause} um , if we want another subject .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You know . Like I can drag Ben into it or something . Although he might cause problems but . So , is it a experimental setup for the um , data collection {pause} totally {pause} ready {disfmarker} determined ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I like that . \" Test the wizard . \" I want that on a T - shirt .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} experimental setup u on the technical issue yes , except we st I think we still need uh {disfmarker} a recording device for the wizard , just a tape recorder that 's running in a room .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} in terms of specifying the scenario , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} we 've gotten a little further", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but um {disfmarker} we wanted to wait until we know who is the wizard , and have the wizard partake in the {pause} ultimate {pause} sort of definition probe . So {disfmarker} so if {disfmarker} if on Friday it turns out that she really likes it and {disfmarker} and we really like her , then nothing should stop us from sitting down next week and {vocalsound} {comment} getting all the details completely figured out .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So the ideal task um , {pause} will have {pause} whatever I don't know how much the structure of the evolving Bayes - net {vocalsound} {pause} will af affect {disfmarker} Like we wanna {disfmarker} we wanna be able to collect {vocalsound} as much of the variables that are needed for that ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm - yea - some .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? in the course of the task ? Well not all of them but you know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Bu - e e e I 'm even {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this Tango , Enter , Vista is sort of , itself , an ad - hoc scenario .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the basic u um idea behind the uh {pause} data collection was the following . The data we get from Munich is {pause} very command line , simple linguistic stuff .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hardly anything complicated . No metaphors whatsoever .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Not a rich language . So we wanted just to collect data , to get {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {pause} elicits more , uh , that elicits richer language .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And we actually did not want to constrain it too much ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know ? Just see what people say . And then maybe we 'll discover the phenomenon {disfmarker} the phenomena that we want to solve , you know , with {pause} whatever engine we {disfmarker} we come up with . Um . So this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is a parallel track , you know , there {disfmarker} they hopefully meet ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So in other words this data collection is {pause} more general .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but since {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It could {disfmarker} it could {pause} be used for not just this task .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It should tell us , you know , what kind of phenomenon could occur , it should tell us also maybe something about the difference between people who think they speak to a computer versus people who think they speak to a human being", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and the sort of differences there . So it may get us some more information on the human - machine pragmatics , um , that no one knows anything about , as of yesterday . And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} nothing has changed {comment} since then , so . Uh . And secondly , now that of course we have sort of started to lick blood with this , and especially since um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Johno can't stop Tango - ing , {vocalsound} we may actually include , you know , those {disfmarker} those intentions . So now I think we should maybe have at least one navigational task with {disfmarker} with sort of explicit {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "not ex it 's implicit that the person wants to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and maybe some task where it 's more or less explicit that the person wants to take a picture ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or see it or something . So that we can label it . I mean , that 's how we get a corpus that we can label .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Whereas , you know , if we 'd just get data we 'd never know what they actually wanted , we 'd get no cues . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Alrighty .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That was that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So is this the official end of the meeting now ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Looks like it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So what 's \" Economics , the fallacy \" ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ma", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I just randomly {pause} label things . So that has nothing to do with economics or anything .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , really ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe we ought to switch off these things before we continue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Switching o", "speaker": "Grad D" } ]

[ { "content": "Nice .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "to {disfmarker} to handle .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Is that good ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah , I 've have never handled them .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Goats eat cans , to my understanding . Tin cans .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Did we need to do these things ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Wow .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Could I hit {disfmarker} hit F - seven to do that ? on the {disfmarker} Robert ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , the remote will do it OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Cuz I 'm already up there ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "in control here .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You are in control . Already ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wow , we 're all so high tech here . Yet another p PowerPoint presentation .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} Well it makes it easier {pause} to do", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Certainly does .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So , {pause} we were {disfmarker} Ah !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Johno , where are you ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So , Let 's see . Which one of these buttons will do this for me ? Aha ! OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Should you go back to the first one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Do I wanna go back to the first one ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'm sorry I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , {pause} just to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Introduce .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , um {vocalsound} Well , \" the search for the middle layer \" . It 's basically uh talks about uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It just refers to the fact that uh {pause} one of main things we had to do was to {pause} decide what the intermediate sort of nodes were ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I can read ! I 'm kidding .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know , because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But if you really want to find out what it 's about you have to {pause} click on the little {pause} light bulb .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Although I 've {disfmarker} I 've never {disfmarker} I don't know what the light bulb is for . I didn't i install that into my {pause} PowerPoint presentation .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It opens the Assistant that tells you that the font type is too small .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Do you wanna try ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ach u", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'd prefer not to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Continue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's a needless good idea . Is that the idea ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Why are you doing this in this mode and not in the presentation mode ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Because I 'm gonna switch to the JavaBayes program", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh ! OK . Of course . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and then {pause} if I do that it 'll mess everything up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I was wondering .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Is that OK ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Can you maximize the window ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Proceed .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You want me to {disfmarker} Wait , what do you want me to do ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side isn't {disfmarker} doesn't appear ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , It 's OK . It 's {disfmarker} It 'll work .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well I can do that , but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , fine .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Here , let 's see if I can {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Very nice .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Is that better ? OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} I 'll also get rid of this \" Click to add notes \" . OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Perfect .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So then the features we decided {disfmarker} or we decided we were {disfmarker} talked about , right ? Uh the {disfmarker} the prosody , the discourse , {pause} verb choice . You know . We had a list of things like \" to go \" and \" to visit \" and what not . The \" landmark - iness \" of uh {disfmarker} I knew you 'd like that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Nice coinage .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Thank you . uh , of a {disfmarker} of a building . Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line {pause} for space . \" Nice walls \" {vocalsound} which we can look up because I mean if you 're gonna {pause} get real close to a building in the Tango mode , right , there 's gotta be a reason for it . And it 's either because you 're in route to something else or you wanna look at the walls . The context , which in this case we 've limited to {pause} \" business person \" , \" tourist \" , or {pause} \" unknown \" , the time of day , and \" open to suggestions \" , isn't actually a feature . It 's {pause} \" We are open to suggestions . \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that {vocalsound} uh , in this particular domain {disfmarker} you said {disfmarker} be {disfmarker} i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the {disfmarker} that landmark - iness cor is correlated with", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . We have a separate", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "They 're separate things .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "feature .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "their being nice w", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I either could put \" nice walls \" on its own line or \" open to suggestions \" off the slide .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like you could have a p", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} By \" nice \" you mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} Like you could have a post office with uh {disfmarker} you know , nice murals or something .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or one time I was at this {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So \" nice walls \" is a stand in for like architecturally it , uh {disfmarker} significant", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But see the thing is , if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Architecturally appealing from the outside .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "or something like that . OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but if it 's architecturally significant you might be able to see it from {disfmarker} Like you m might be able to \" Vista \" it ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? And be able to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Appreciate it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , versus , like , I was at this place in Europe where they had little carvings of , like , dead people on the walls or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I don't remember w", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It was a long time ago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "There 's a lot of those .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But if you looked at it real close , you could see the {disfmarker} the in intricacy of the {disfmarker} of the walls .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So that count as {disfmarker} counts as a nice wall .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} OK . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Something you want to inspect at close range {pause} because it 's interesting .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Robert ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well there {disfmarker} there is a term {pause} that 's often used . That 's \" saliency \" , or the \" salience \" of an object . And I was just wondering whether that 's the same as what you describe as \" landmark - iness \" . But it 's really not . I mean an object can be very salient", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but not a landmark at all .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Not a landmark at all . There 's landmark for um , touristic reasons and landmark for I don't know navigational reasons or something .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , we meant , uh , touristic reasons .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . but you can imagine maybe wanting the oth both kinds of things there for different um , goals .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah . Tourist - y landmarks also happen to be {disfmarker} Wouldn't {disfmarker} couldn't they also be {disfmarker} They 're not exclusive groups , are they ? Like {pause} non - tourist - y landmarks and", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or it can be als", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "direct navigational {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "They 're not mutually exclusive ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . Definitely .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , So our initial idea was not very satisfying , {pause} because {disfmarker} uh our initial idea was basically all the features pointing to the output node . Uh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , a big flat structure .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And uh , so we {disfmarker} Reasons being , you know , it 'd be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that . If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort , uh according Bhaskara we 'd be handicapped . I don't know belief - nets very well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well usually , I mean , you know , N {disfmarker} If you have N features , then it 's two to the N {disfmarker} {pause} or exponential in N .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And they wouldn't look pretty . So .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , they 'd all be like pointing to the one node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh . So then our next idea was to add a middle layer , right ? So the thinking behind that was {vocalsound} we have the features that we 've drawn {pause} from the communication of some {disfmarker} Like , the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea , like \" I 'm {disfmarker} \" the {disfmarker} the abstract idea being \" I am a tourist I want to go {pause} to this place . \" Right ? So we 're gonna set up features along the lines of where they want to go and {pause} what they 've said previously and whatnot . And then we have {pause} the means {vocalsound} that they should use . Right ? but the middle thing , we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out , like , the concept of whether they 're a tourist {pause} or {pause} whether they 're running an errand or something like that along those lines . Or {disfmarker} Yes , we could things we couldn't extract the {disfmarker} from the data , the hidden variables . Yes , good . So then the hidden variables {disfmarker} hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour , running an errand , or whether they were in a hurry , because we were thinking uh , if they were in a hurry there 'd be less likely to {disfmarker} like {disfmarker} or th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Want to do Vista ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ? Because {pause} if you want to view things you wouldn't be in a hurry .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a {disfmarker} like a {pause} navigational point to go to another place .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Whether the destination was their final destination , whether the destination was closed . Those are all {disfmarker} And then \" Let 's look at the belief - net \" {comment} OK . So that means that I should switch to the {pause} other program . Um right now it 's still kind of {pause} in a toy {pause} version of it , because we didn't know the probabilities of {disfmarker} {pause} or {disfmarker} Well I 'll talk about it when I get the picture up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No one knows it .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So this right {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker} Let 's see . What happens if I maximize this ? There we go . But uh {disfmarker} So . The mode {pause} basically has three different {pause} outputs . The probability {disfmarker} whether the probability of a Vista , Tango , or Enter . Um {disfmarker} The \" context \" , we simplified . Basically it 's just the businessman , the tourist , unknown . \" Verb used \" is actually personally amusing mainly because it 's {disfmarker} it 's just whether the verb is a Tango verb , an Enter verb , or a {pause} Vista verb .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that one needs a lot of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And are those mutually exclusive sets ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Not at all . That 's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that needs a lot of work .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {vocalsound} {pause} that would 've made the probably significantly be more complicated to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Got it . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so we decided that for the purposes of this {pause} it 'd be simpler to just have three verbs .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Simple .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Stab at it . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Um {disfmarker} Why don't you mention things about this , Bhaskara , that I am {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} that are not coming to my mind right now .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , so {disfmarker} Yeah , so note the four nodes down there , the {disfmarker} sort of , the things that are not directly extracted . Actually , the five things . The \" closed \" is also not directly extracted I guess , from the uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well i it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "From the {pause} utterance ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's so it sort of is", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Actually , no , wait .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} because have the {disfmarker} the time of day", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It is . OK , \" closed \" sort of is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "and the close it just had the {disfmarker} er and what time it closed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right , so f Right , but the other ones , the final destination , the whether they 're doing business , whether they 're in a hurry , and whether they 're tourists , that kind of thing is all uh {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker} you know probabilistically depends on the other things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Inferred from the other ones ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And the mode , you know , depends on all those things only .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah the {disfmarker} {pause} the actual parse is somewhere up around in here .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . So we haven't uh , managed {disfmarker} Like we don't have nodes for \" discourse \" and \" parse \" , although like in some sense they are parts of this belief - net .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The idea is that we just extract those features from them , so we don't actually have a node for the entire parse ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because we 'd never do inference on it anyway , so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So some of the {disfmarker} the top row of things {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker} what 's \" Disc admission fee \" ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "whether they discuss the admission fees . So we looked at the data and in a lot of data people were saying things like {vocalsound} \" Can I get to this place ? \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "\" What is the admission fee ? \" . So that 's like a huge uh clue that they 're trying to Enter the place rather than uh to Tango or Vista ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "There were {disfmarker} there 'd be other things besides just the admission fee , but {pause} you know , {pause} we didn't have {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That was like our example .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That was the {pause} initial one that we found .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . So there are certain cues that are very strong {pause} either lexical or topic - based um , concept cues", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "From the discourse that {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "for one of those . And then in that second row {pause} or whatever that row of Time of Day through that {disfmarker} So all of those {disfmarker} Some of them come from the utterance and some of them are sort of {vocalsound} either world knowledge or situational {pause} things .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right ? So that you have no distinction between those and OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One , uh {disfmarker} Uh . {vocalsound} Um , anything else you want to say Bhaskara ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Unmark @ @ Time of Day \"", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I m I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . They 're {disfmarker} they 're are a couple of more things .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One thing {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I mean Uh . I would actually suggest we go through this one more time so we {disfmarker} we all uh , agree on what {disfmarker} what the meaning of these things is at the moment and maybe {vocalsound} what changes we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , th OK . so one thing I {disfmarker} I 'm you know unsure about , is how we have the discus uh {disfmarker} the \" admission fee \" thing set up . So one {pause} thing that we were thinking was {vocalsound} by doing the layers like this , Uh {disfmarker} we kept um {disfmarker} things from directly affecting the mode {pause} beyond the concept , but you could see perhaps discus the \" admission fee \" going directly to the mode pointing at \" Enter \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? Versus pointing to just at \" tourist \" ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But we just decided to keep all the things we extracted {pause} to point at the middle and then {pause} down .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Why is the landmark {disfmarker} OK . The landmark is facing to the tourists . That 's because we 're talking about landmarks as touristic landmarks not as possible um", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Navigational landmarks ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Navigational cue .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "navigational landmarks", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so Mm - hmm . Then {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would be {pause} whatever building they referred to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Prosody .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . So let 's see . The variables .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Disc - \" admission fee \" is a binary thing , \" time of day \" is like morning , afternoon , night . Is that the deal ? Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That 's how we have it currently set up ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but it could be , {pause} you know , based upon hour", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Whatever granularity .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or {pause} dis we could discrete it {disfmarker} des descret - ize it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Normally context will include a huge amount of information , but um , we are just using the particular {vocalsound} part of the context which consists of the switch that they flick to indicate whether they 're a tourist or not , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So that 's given in their input .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Right ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so it 's not really all of context . Similarly prosody is not all of prosody but simply {vocalsound} for our purposes whether or not they appear tense or relaxed .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . that 's very nice , huh ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} So the context is a switch between tourist or non - tourist ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "and", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Or also unknown ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or un {pause} unknown ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Unknown , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So final dest So it seems like that would really help you for doing business versus tourist ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Which is th Which one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but OK . so the the context being um , e I don't know if that question 's sort of in general , \" are you {disfmarker} \" I mean the {disfmarker} ar ar are do they allow business people to be doing non - business things at the moment ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , it does .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So then you just have some probabilities over {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Everything is probablistic , and {disfmarker} There 's always {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . {disfmarker} over which which of those it is .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um , right . So then landmark is {disfmarker} Oh , sorry . \" Verb used \" is like , right now we only have three values , but in general they would be a probability distribution over all verbs .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Rather , let me rephrase that . It {disfmarker} it can take values {vocalsound} in the set of all verbs , that they could possibly use .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um \" nice walls \" is binary , \" closed \" is binary \" final destination \" , again {disfmarker} Yeah , all those are binary I guess . And \" mode \" is one of three things .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So , the {disfmarker} the middle layer is also binary ? No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , anything with a question mark after it in that picture is a binary node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh . It {disfmarker} Yeah . But all those things without question marks are also binary . Right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Which things ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Nice walls ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Wi", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh . \" Nice walls \" is uh {disfmarker} something that we extract from our world knowledge .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , a Oh yeah . Sorry . It is binary .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It is binary but it doesn't have question mark because it 's extracted .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's true . Yeah . OK , I see your point .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I gotcha .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , similarly \" closed \" , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So we can either be in a hurry or not , but we cannot be in a medium hurry at the moment ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , we To do that we would add another uh {disfmarker} value for that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And that would require s updating the probability distribution for \" mode \" as well .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Because it would now have to like uh {disfmarker} take that possibility into account .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Take a conti", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So um , of course this will happen when we think more about the kinds of verbs that are used in each cases", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but you can imagine that it 's verb plus various other things that are also not in the bottom layer that would {disfmarker} that would help you {disfmarker} Like it 's a conjunction of , I don't know , you know , the verb used and some other stuff that {disfmarker} that would {vocalsound} {pause} determine {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Other syntactic information you mean ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of the landmark is {disfmarker} is sort of the object right ? the argument in a sense ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Usually . I {disfmarker} I don't know if that 's always the case I {disfmarker} I guess haven't looked at the data as much as you guys have . So . Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "that 's always warping on something {disfmarker} some entity ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and um {disfmarker} Uh maybe at this stage we will {disfmarker} we do want to {disfmarker} uh sort of get {disfmarker} uh modifiers in there", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "because they may also tell us whether the person is in a hurry or not", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I want to get to the church quickly ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That would be a cue .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "what 's the fastest way", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , correct .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Um . OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right . Excellent . Do we have anything else to say about this ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "We can do a little demo .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh the Yeah , we could . But the demo doesn't work very well .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No , then it wouldn't be a demo I was just gonna s", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker} We can do a demo in the sense that we can um , {vocalsound} just ob observe the fact that this will , in fact do inference .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Observe nodes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So we can , you know , set some of the uh nodes and then try to find the probability of other nodes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Go ahead .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK . Dat - dat - dah . What should I observe ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Just se set a few of them . You don't have to do the whole thing that we did last time . Just like uh , {vocalsound} maybe the fact that they use a certain verb {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Actually forget the verb .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "just uh {disfmarker} I don't know , say they discussed the admission fee {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the place has nice walls", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I love nice walls , OK ? I 'm a big fan .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "and it 's night .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "it 's starting to grow on me", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And the time of day is night ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , no wait . That {disfmarker} that doesn't uh {disfmarker} it 's not really consistent . They don't discuss the admission fee . Make that false .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And it 's night .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , they {disfmarker} OK . Oh whoops . I forgot to uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That didn't work .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ach !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I 'd like to do that again .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One thing that bugs me about JavaBayes is you have to click that and do this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . That seems kind of redundant but .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That all you want ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So let 's see . I want {pause} to query ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "\" Go \" and , right , \" query \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "right ? the mode . OK , and then on here {disfmarker} So let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So that {pause} is the probability that they 're Entering , Vista - ing or Tango - ing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So slightly {pause} biased {pause} toward \" Tango \" ing", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "If it 's night time , {pause} they have not discussed admission fee , and the n walls are nice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So , yeah . I guess that {pause} sort of makes sense . The reason I say the {pause} demo doesn't work very well is yesterday we uh {disfmarker} {pause} observed everything in favor of {pause} taking a tour , and it came up as \" Tango \" , right ? Over and over again . We couldn't {disfmarker} we couldn't figure out how to turn it off of \" Tango \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So . Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It loves the Tango .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Huh ! Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well , that 's obviously just to do with our probabilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like , {pause} we totally hand - tuned the probabilities ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right . We were like {vocalsound} \" hmm , well if the person does this and this and this , let 's say forty percent for this ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "fifty per \" Like , you know . So obviously that 's gonna happen .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but it {disfmarker} it", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Maybe the bias toward \" Tango \" ing was yours , then ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "that 's {disfmarker} that 's at {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} So we have to like fit the probabilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Spent my youth practicing the tango de la muerte .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , the real case ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "However you know , it {disfmarker} The purpose was not really , at this stage , to come up with meaningful probabilities but to get thinking about that hidden middle layer . And so th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We would actually {disfmarker} I guess once we look at the data more we 'll get more hidden {pause} nodes ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "but I 'd like to see more . Not because it would {pause} expedite the probabilities , cuz it wouldn't . It would actually slow that down tremendously .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . Well , yeah , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Not that much though . Only a little early .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "No , I think we should have uh {disfmarker} exponentially more {pause} middle nodes than features we 've extracted . I 'm ju I 'm just jo", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So . Are \" doing business \" versus \" tourist \" {disfmarker} They refer to your current task . Like {disfmarker} like current thing you want to do at this moment .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah , well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That 's {disfmarker} that 's an interesting point . Whether you 're {disfmarker} It 's whether {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And are th", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think it 's more like \" Are you are tourist ? are you in Ham - like Heidelberg for a {disfmarker} \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , so , I thought that was directly given by the context {pause} switch .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "That 's a different thing . What if the context , which is not set , but still they say things like , \" I want to go {pause} uh , see the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the castle and uh , et cetera . \"", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Is it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well the I kind of {pause} thought of \" doing business \" as more of running an errand type thing .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Business on the other hand is , uh , definitely what you 're doing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So if you run out of cash as a tourist , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and you need to go to the AT", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So {pause} i wi th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . Oh , I see , you may have a task . wh you have to go get money and so you are doing business at that stage .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" How do I get to the bank ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I see . Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And that 'll affect whether you want to enter or you if you {disfmarker} kinda thing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So the \" tourists \" node {pause} should be {pause} um , very consistent with the context node . Right ? If you say that 's more their {disfmarker} in general what their background is .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , I think this context node is a bit of a {disfmarker} I don't know , like in d Uh {disfmarker} Do we {pause} wanna have {disfmarker} Like it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Are you assuming that or not ? Like is that to be {disfmarker} I mean if that 's accurate then that would determine tourist node .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "If the context were to set one way or another , that like strongly uh um , says something about whether {disfmarker} whether or not they 're tourists .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So what 's interesting is when it 's not {disfmarker} when it 's set to \" unknown \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "We - what set the {disfmarker} they set the context to \" unknown \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right now we haven't observed it , so I guess it 's sort of averaging over all those three possibilities .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But yes , you can set it to un \" unknown \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And if we now do {disfmarker} leave everything else as is the results should be the same ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oops .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well no , because we {disfmarker} Th - the way we set the probabilities {vocalsound} might not have {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's an {disfmarker} it 's an issue , right ? Like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Pretty much the same ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is . So the issue is that um in belief - nets , it 's not common to do what we did of like having , you know , a d bunch of values and then \" unknown \" as an actual value . What 's common is you just like don't observe the variable ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right , and then just marginalizes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We didn't do this because we felt that there 'd {disfmarker} I guess we were thinking in terms of a switch that actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We were thi Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "We were th", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} I don't know y what the right thing is to do for that . I 'm not {disfmarker} I don't know if I totally am happy with {vocalsound} the way it is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why don't we {disfmarker} Can we , um {disfmarker} How long would it take to {disfmarker} to add another {pause} node on the observatory and , um , play around with it ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Another node on what ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , well it depends on how many things it 's linked to .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's just say make it really simple . If we create {pause} something that for example would be um {disfmarker} So th some things can be landmarks in your sense but {pause} they {pause} can never be entered ? So for example s a statue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Good point .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So {pause} maybe we wanna have \" landmark \" {pause} meaning now \" enterable landmark \" versus , um something that 's simply just a vista point , for example .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's true .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah ? uh , a statue or um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So basically it 's addressing a variable that 's \" enterable or not \" . So like an \" enterable , question mark \" .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Also {disfmarker} {pause} you know , didn't we have a {pause} size as one ? The size of the landmark .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Cuz if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . Not when we were doing this ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "but I guess at some point we did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For some reason I had that {disfmarker} OK , that was a thought that I had at one point but then went away .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you want to have a {disfmarker} a node for like whether or not it can be entered ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , for example , if we include that , yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "um , accessibility or something , yeah ? \" Is it {disfmarker} Can it be entered ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "then of course , this is {pause} sort of binary as well .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And then um , there 's also the question whether it may be entered . In the sense that , you know , if it 's {pause} Tom {disfmarker} the house of Tom Cruise , you know , it 's enterable but you may not enter it . You know ? You 're not allowed to .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Unless you are , whatever , his {disfmarker} his divorce lawyer or something .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ? and um {disfmarker} And these are very observable sort of from the {disfmarker} from the ontology sort of things .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Way Does it actually help to distinguish between those two cases though ? Whether it 's practically speaking enterable , or actually physically enterable {pause} or not ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "y y If {disfmarker} If you 're running an errand you maybe more likely to be able to enter places that are usually not {vocalsound} al w you 're not usually {disfmarker} not allowed to uh m", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It seems like it would for uh , uh {pause} determining whether they wanna go into it or not .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well I can see why {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Cuz they {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Let 's get this uh b clearer . S so it 's matrix between if it 's not enterable , period .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Whether it 's a {disfmarker} Whether it 's a public building , and whether it 's {disfmarker} actually has a door .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "This is sort of uh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So Tom Cruise 's house is {pause} not a public building", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but it has a door . But the thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK , sh explain to me why it 's necessary {pause} to distinguish between whether something has a door and is {pause} not public . Or , if something {disfmarker} It seems like it 's equivalent to say that it doesn't have a door a {pause} and it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or \" not public \" and \" not a door \" are equivalent things ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "it seems like in practice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right . Yeah . So we would have {disfmarker} What does it mean , then , that we have to {disfmarker} we have an object type statue . That really is an object type . So there is {disfmarker} there 's gonna be a bunch of statues .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And then we have , for example , an object type , {pause} hmm , that 's a hotel . How about hotels ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So , the most famous building in Heidelberg is actually a hotel . It 's the hotel Zum Ritter , which is the only Renaissance building in Heidelberg that was left after {pause} the big destruction and for the Thirty Years War , blah - blah - blah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm . Does it have nice walls ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It has wonderful walls . Um - And lots of detail , c and carvings , engravings and so forth ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Excellent .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so . But , um , it 's still an unlikely candidate for the Tango mode I {pause} must say . But . Um . So {disfmarker} s So if you are a d Well it 's very tricky . So I guess your question is {disfmarker} so far I have no really arg no real argument why to differentiate between statues as {disfmarker} statues and houses of celebrities , from that point of view . Huh . OK . Let {disfmarker} Let 's do a {disfmarker} Can we add , just so I can see how it 's done , uh , a \" has door \" {pause} property or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What would it , uh , connect to ? Like , what would , uh , it affect ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um , I think , um , it might affect {disfmarker} Oh actually it 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it wouldn't affect any of our nodes , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "What I was thinking was if you had a {disfmarker} like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh it 's {disfmarker} it affects th The \" doing business \" is certainly not .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You could affect {disfmarker} {pause} Theoretically you could affect \" doing business \" with \" has door \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It should , um , inhibit that ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know if JavaBayes is nice about that . It might be that if you add a new thing pointing to a variable , you just like {disfmarker} it just overwrites everything . But {pause} you can check .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well , {pause} we have it saved . So . {vocalsound} We can rel open it up again .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . It 's true .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The {pause} safety net .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think you could just add it . I mean , I have before OK . Whew !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well that 's fine , but we have to see the function now . Has it become all point fives or not ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Let 's see . So this is \" has door \" Uh , true , false . That 's acceptable . And I want to edit the function going to that , right ? Oh no .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . This is fine ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . It was fine .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "this business .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "added this one .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What would be nice if it {disfmarker} is if it just like kept the old function for either value but . Nope . Didn't {pause} do it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Oh wait , it might be {disfmarker} Did we w Yes , that 's not good .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's {pause} kind of annoying .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK , so just dis dismiss everything . Close it and {disfmarker} and load up the old state so {pause} it doesn't screw {disfmarker} screw that up .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Let 's see . Oops .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe you can read in ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ha - So have you used JavaBayes a lot ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yes . Really {vocalsound} I ha I 've {disfmarker} I haven't used it a lot and I haven't used it in the last you know many months so", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "um , uh , we can ask someone .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It might be worth uh {disfmarker} asking around .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Like , we looked at sort of uh {disfmarker} a page that had like a bunch of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Srini {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , S I guess he 'd be the person .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Srini 's the one to ask I would say .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um . He might know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Cuz {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean in a way this is a lot of good features in Java it 's cra has a GUI and it 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I guess those are the main two things . It does learning , it has {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No it doesn't , actually .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I didn't think it did learning .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe it did a little bit of learning ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't remember .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh right . Maybe you 're right . OK . Right . But uh {disfmarker} it 's free .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Which is w quite positive , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But uh , yeah . Maybe another thing that uh {disfmarker} But I mean its interface is not the greatest . So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But actually it had an interface .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "A lot of them were like , you know .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Command line .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What is the c code ? Can w can we see that ? How do you write the code", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "The c", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "or do you actually never have to write any code there ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . There is actually a text file that you can edit . But it 's {disfmarker} You don't have to do that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "There 's like an XML format for {pause} Bayes - nets .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is it XML ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The - there is one . I don't know if this uses it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , I see . No this doesn't use it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "But it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I didn't think it did .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You can look at the text file .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But do you have it here ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh , yes I do actually .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well , maybe you don't .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let me see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh yes , of course .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh man ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Like , there 's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I didn't n {pause} Is there an ampersand in DOS ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Nope . Just s l start up a new DOS .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We - That 's alright . I can probably double cli click on it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} Yeah , right .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "n uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Let 's see .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Let 's see , come on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 'll ask you what you {disfmarker} what it wants {disfmarker} what you want to open it with and see what BAT , I guess .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "One of these days , it should open this , theoretically .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Go {disfmarker} Right mouse . Open with .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh there we go .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's {disfmarker} Oh !", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe it was just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh ! W Ah , it was dead . To the world .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "God !", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Through the old Notepad . That 's my favorite editor .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I like {disfmarker} I like Word Pad because it has the uh {disfmarker} the returns ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Wordpad ? I {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "the carriage returns on some of them .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You know how they get \" auto - fills \" I guess ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mmm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "or whatever you call it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Anyway , there it is .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So this is sort of LISP - y ? No .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh , Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It just basically looks like it just specifies a bunch of", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . That 's how actual probability tables are specified .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "As , like , lists of numbers .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So theoretically you could edit that .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It just that {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But {pause} they 're not very friendly .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah the ordering isn't very clear on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you 'd have to like figure out {disfmarker} Like you have to go and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right . The layout {pause} of the table .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Actually we could write a program that could generate this .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah you could .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You could .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's not {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We were doing it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah we can maybe write an interface th for uh entering probability distributions easily , something like {disfmarker} like a little script . That might {vocalsound} be worth it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And that might do .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I actually seem to recall Srini complaining about something to do with Entering probability so this is probably", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The other thing is it is in Java", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "so .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "We could {pause} manipulate the source {pause} itself ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Do you have the true source files or just the class ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I don't know if he actually {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , yeah . we do", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Does he {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I saw directory called \" source \" ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I didn't e", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} Yeah . Go up one ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Up one . Ah yes , good .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "\" Source \" . That 's {disfmarker} that 's quite nice .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I don't know if it actually manipulate the source , though . That might be a bit complicated .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think it might {disfmarker} it might be simpler to just {pause} have a script that , you know {disfmarker} It 's , like , friendly ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The d the data tables .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it allows you enter things well .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "But if th if there is an XML {pause} file that {disfmarker} or format that it can also read {disfmarker} I mean it just reads this , right ? When it starts .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah I know there is an {disfmarker} I was looking on the we web page and he 's updated it for an XML version of I guess Bayes - nets . There 's a Bayes - net spec for {disfmarker} in XML .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "He 's {disfmarker} Like this guy has ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The JavaBayes guy ? So {disfmarker} but , e he doesn't use it . So in what sense has he updated it ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Well th you can either {disfmarker} you ca or you can read both .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh . I see .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "To my understanding .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK . That would be awesome .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Because uh {disfmarker} Well at least the {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I could have misread the web page , I have a habit of doing that , but .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK , wonderful .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So you got more slides ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Do I have more slides ? Um yes , one more . \" Future Work \" . I think every presentation have a should have a \" Future Work \" slide . But uh it 's basically {disfmarker} we already talked about all this stuff , so .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um . The additional thing is I guess learning the probabilities , {pause} also . E That 's maybe , I don't know {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Uh that 's future future work .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Does {disfmarker} That 's {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Very future .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And of course if you have a presentation that doesn't {disfmarker} have something that doesn't work at all , then you have \" What I learned \" , as a slide .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Can't you have both ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You could . My first approach failed .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What I learned . OK , so I think that uh our presentation 's finished .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I know what I like about these meetings is one person will nod , and then the next person will nod , and then it just goes all the way around the room .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So the uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I missed my turn .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "No I {disfmarker} Earlier I went {nonvocalsound} and Bhaskara went {nonvocalsound} and you did it . You did it .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's like yawning .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's like yawning .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And this announcement was in stereo .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ha .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . So this means um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Should I pull up the {pause} net again ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Could you put the {disfmarker} the um , net up again ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yes . There we go .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Thanks .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And actually I was {disfmarker} cuz I got a wireless mike on .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So a more general thing than \" discussed admission fee \" um , could be {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm just wondering whether the context , the background context of the discourse {vocalsound} might be {disfmarker} I don't know , if there 's a way to define it or maybe you know generalize it some way um , there might be other cues that , say , um , in the last few utterances there has been something that has strongly associated with say one of the particular modes uh , I don't know if that might be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . I think we {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "uh , and {disfmarker} and into that node would be various {disfmarker} various things that {disfmarker} that could have specifically come up .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think a {disfmarker} a sort of general strategy here {disfmarker} You know , this is {disfmarker} this is excellent because {disfmarker} um it gets you thinking along these terms {disfmarker} is that maybe we ob we could observe a couple of um discourse phenomena such as the admission fee , and something else and something else , that happened in the discourse before .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker} let 's make those four . And maybe there are two um {disfmarker} So maybe this could be sort of a separate region of the net , {pause} which has two {disfmarker} {pause} has it 's own middle layer . Maybe this , you know , has some {pause} kind {pause} of um , funky thing that di if this and this may influence these hidden nodes of the discourse which is maybe something that is uh , a more general version of the actual {pause} phenomenon that you can observe . So things that point towards {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So instead of single node , for {pause} like , if they said the word \" admission fee \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "\" admission fee \" , or maybe , you know , \" how much to enter \"", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or you know something , other cues .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Opening hours or something like that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly . That would all f funnel into one node that would {pause} constitute entrance requirements or something like that .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So \" pay a visit \" {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "uh uh d", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean it sort of get into plan recognition kinds of things in the discourse . I mean that 's like the bigger um , version of it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Exactly . Yeah ? And then maybe there are some discourse acts if they happened before , um it 's more for um a cue that the person actually wants to get somewhere else and that you are in a {disfmarker} in a {disfmarker} in a route um , sort of proceeding past these things , so this would be just something that {disfmarker} where you want to pass it . Hmm ? Is that it ? However these are of course then the {disfmarker} the nodes , the observed nodes , for your middle layer . So this {pause} again points to \" final destination \" , \" doing business \" , \" tourist hurry \" and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah ? And so then we can say , \" OK . we have a whole {pause} region {disfmarker} \" {vocalsound} in a e", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "That 's a whole set of discourse related cues to your middle layer .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly . And this is just {disfmarker} then just one .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So e because at the end the more we um {disfmarker} add , you know , the more spider - web - ish it 's going to become in the middle and the more of hand editing . It 's going to get very ugly . But with this way we could say \" OK , these are the {pause} discourse phenomena . They ra may have there own hidden layer {pause} that points to some of {pause} the {disfmarker} the real hidden layer , um or the general hidden layer .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sure .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And the same we will be able to do for syntactic information , the verbs used , the object types used , modifiers . And maybe there 's a hidden layer for that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And so forth and so forth . Then we have context .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So essentially a lot of those nodes can be expanded into little Bayes - nets of their own .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Precisely . So .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One thing that 's kind of been bugging me when I {disfmarker} more I look at this is that the {disfmarker} I guess , the fact that the {disfmarker} there 's a complete separation between the {pause} observed features and in the output .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean , it makes it cleaner , but then uh {disfmarker} I mean .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's true .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For instance if the discourse does {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What do you mean by that ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "well for instance , the \" discourse admission fee \" {pause} node seems like it should point directly to the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or increase the probability of \" enter {pause} directly \" versus \" going there via tourist \" .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Or we could like add more , uh , sort of middle nodes . Like we could add a node like do they want to enter it , which is affected by admission fee and by whether it 's closed and by whether it has a door .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So it 's like {disfmarker} There are {disfmarker} Those are the two options . Either like make an arrow directly or put a new node .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "that makes sense .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And if it {disfmarker} if you do it {disfmarker} If you could connect it too hard you may get such phenomenon that {disfmarker} like \" So how much has it cost to enter ? \" and the answer is two hundred fifty dollars , and then the persons says um \" Yeah I want to see it . \" Yeah ? meaning \" It 's way out of my budget \" um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "There are places in Germany where it costs two hundred fifty dollars to enter ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , nothing comes to mind . Without thinking too hard . Um , maybe , yeah of course , um opera premiers .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So you know .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Or {disfmarker} or any good old Pink Floyd concert .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I see . If you want to see \" The Magic Flute \" or something .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Or maybe um , a famous restaurant . or , I don't know . There are various things that you might w not want to eat a {pause} meal there but {pause} your own table .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The Spagos of Heidelberg .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think that the h I mean nothing beats the {disfmarker} the admission charge prices in Japan . So there , two hundred dollars is {disfmarker} is moderate for getting into a discotheque . You know . Then again , everything else is free then once you 're ins in there .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Really .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Food and drink and so forth . So . I mean . But i you know , i we can {disfmarker} Something {disfmarker} Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and u the answer {pause} is s if we {disfmarker} um , you know , um {disfmarker} still , based on that result is never going to enter that building .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know ? Because it 's just too expensive .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , I think I see . So the discourse refers to \" admission fee \" but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . you have to have some notion of not just {disfmarker} I mean there 's a {disfmarker} there 's change across several turns of discourse", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so {vocalsound} I don't know how {disfmarker} if any of this was discussed {disfmarker} but how i if it all this is going to interact with {vocalsound} whatever general {vocalsound} uh , other {disfmarker} other discourse processing that might be happen .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . {comment} {nonvocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I mean .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "What sort of discourse {pause} processing is uh {disfmarker} are the {disfmarker} How much is built into SmartKom and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It works like this . The uh , um {disfmarker} I mean . The first thing we get is that {pause} already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention , right ? simply by parsing it . And this um {disfmarker} m won't differentiate between all modes , yeah ? but at least it 'll tell us \" OK here we have something that {disfmarker} somebody that wants to go someplace , now it 's up for us to figure out what kind of going there is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} {pause} is happening , and um , if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything {disfmarker} all the information is needed , what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it 's handed on to the discourse history which is , um o one of the most elaborate {disfmarker} elaborate modules . It 's {disfmarker} it 's actually the {disfmarker} the whole memory of the entire system , that knows what {disfmarker} wh who said what , which was {disfmarker} what was presented . It helps an an anaphora resolution and it {disfmarker} and it fills in all the structures that are omitted , so , {pause} um , because you say \" OK , {pause} how can I get to the castle ? \" Oh , how {disfmarker} how much is it ? \" and um \" yeah I would like uh {disfmarker} um {disfmarker} to g let 's do it \" and so forth . So even without an a ana {pause} anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened . so {vocalsound} whenever the uh , um person is not actually rejecting what happened before , so as in \" No I really don't want to see that movie . I 'd rather stay home and watch TV \" um {disfmarker} What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is {disfmarker} is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step , by the discourse model {disfmarker} discourse {pause} model , Yeah , that 's what it 's called . and , um , it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues . So a person pointing to something on the screen , you know , the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "so it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a rather huge {vocalsound} {disfmarker} huge thing but um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} um {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} we can {pause} sort of {disfmarker} It has a very clear interface . We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and {disfmarker} and the turn before that or you know how {pause} deep we want to search", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "um {disfmarker} which is a question . How deep do we want to sear , you know ? Um {disfmarker} but we should {pause} try to keep in mind that , you know , we 're doing this sort of for research , so we {disfmarker} we should find a limit that 's reasonable and not go , you know , all the way back to Adam and Eve . You know , did that person ever discuss admissions fee {disfmarker} fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty {disfmarker} pretty you know {vocalsound} concise and {disfmarker} Anyway .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the {pause} use of \" admission fee discussion \" as a cue for entry , {vocalsound} {pause} is thinking about the plans that various people might have . Like all the different {vocalsound} sort of general schemas that they might be following OK . This person is um , finding out information about this thing in order to go {pause} in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place {pause} in order to do business . Um , because then {pause} anything that 's a cue for one of the steps {pause} would be slight evidence for that overall plan . Um , I don't know . They 're {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have {vocalsound} {pause} you know , some idea at each turn of agent doing something , \" OK , wha what plans is this a {disfmarker} consistent with ? \" and then get s some more information and then you see {pause} \" here 's a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into \" . It {disfmarker} it might be useful here too .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I don't know how you know you 'd have to {vocalsound} {pause} figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I mean the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} u u", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "It 's in the {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these {disfmarker} these plan schemas . I mean there are some {disfmarker} some of them are extremely elaborate , you know . \" What do you need {disfmarker} need to buy a ticket ? \"", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You know ? and it {disfmarker} it 's fifty steps ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "huh ? just for buying a ticket {pause} at a ticket counter , you know , and {disfmarker} and maybe that 's helpful to look at it {disfmarker} to look at those . It 's amazing what human beings can do . W when we talked uh we had the example , you know , of you being uh {disfmarker} a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands , says {vocalsound} New York and you say Track seven , huh ? And it 's because you know that that person actually is following , you know {disfmarker} You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps , you know , without any information other than \" New York \" , huh ? inferring everything from the context . So , works . Um , even though there is probably no train from here to New York , right ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mmm . Not direct .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You 'd uh probably have to transfer in Chicago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . But uh {disfmarker} it 's possible . Um , no you probably have to transfer also somewhere else . Right ? Is that t San Francisco , Chicago ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Is that possible ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "One time I saw a report on trains , and I think there is a l I don't know if {disfmarker} I thought there was a line that went from somewhere , maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "but there was like a California to Chicago line of some sort .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I could be wrong though . It was a while ago .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "The Transcontinental Railroad , doesn't that ring a bell ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah but I don't know if it 's still {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I think it has to exist somewhere .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "They might have blown it up .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Well it never went all the way , right ? I mean you always had to change trains at Omaha ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well most of the way .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? One track ended there and the other one started at {disfmarker} five meters away from that", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh . Mm - hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and {vocalsound} sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well . {pause} You seem to know better than we do so .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yeah ? Has anybody ever been on an Amtrak ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I have . But not transcontinentally .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I 'm frightened by Amtrak myself .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What ? Why ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I just {disfmarker} They seem to have a lot of accidents on the Amtrak .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Really ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Their reputation is very bad .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "huh ? It 's not maybe reality .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's not like German trains . Like German trains are really great so .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} you know , I don't know whether it 's {disfmarker} which ones are safer , you know , statistically .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Um , but they 're faster .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Much faster . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "And there 's much more of them . Yeah , they 're Yeah , it 's {pause} way better", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah I used {disfmarker} um Amtrak quite a bit on the east coast and I was surprised . It was actually OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "You know , on Boston New York ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "New York Rhode Island ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "whatever ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 've done that kind of thing .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Boston .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} That 's {pause} a different issue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "This is going to be an interesting transcript .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I want to see what it does with uh \" landmark - iness \" . That 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Let 's all say it a few more times .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It 'd help it figure it out .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Just kidding . Right .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So by the way tha that structure {pause} that Robert drew on the board was like more um , {vocalsound} {pause} cue - type - based , right , here 's like we 're gonna {vocalsound} segment off a bit of stuff that comes from discourse and then {pause} some of the things we 're talking about here are more {disfmarker} you know , we mentioned maybe {pause} if they talk about {pause} um , I don't know , entering or som you know like they might be more task - based .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So I {disfmarker} I don't know if there {disfmarker} There 's obviously some {disfmarker} m more than one way of organizing {pause} the variables into something", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I think that um {disfmarker} What you guys did is really nicely sketching out different tasks , and maybe some of their conditions .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "so . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One task is more likely you 're in a hurry when you do that kind of s doing business ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} and less in a hurry when uh {disfmarker} you 're a tourist Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} tourists may have {disfmarker} never have final destinations , you know because they are eternally traveling around so {vocalsound} maybe what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what happened {disfmarker} what might happen is that we do get this sort of task - based middle layer ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and then we 'll get these sub - middle layers , that are more cue - based .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . That feed into those ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Nah ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Might be {disfmarker} might be a nice dichotomy of {disfmarker} of the world . So , um I suggest w to {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} to proceed with this in {disfmarker} in the sense that {pause} maybe throughout this week the three of us will {disfmarker} will talk some more about maybe segmenting off different regions , and we make up some {disfmarker} {pause} some toy a observable \" nodes \" {disfmarker} is that what th", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Refined y re just refine the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "What 's the technical term ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . For which ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "For the uh {disfmarker} nodes that are observable ? The \" outer layer \" ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Just observable nodes ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "The features ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "evidence nodes ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "I don't know , whatever you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Feature ma make up some features for those {disfmarker} Identify {pause} four regions ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "maybe make up some features for each region and uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and uh , uh {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} middle layer for those . And then these should then connect somehow to the more plan - based deep space", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Basically just refine {pause} some of the more general nodes .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep . The - they {disfmarker} they will be aud ad - hoc for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for some time to come .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is totally like {disfmarker} The probabilities and all are completely ad - hoc . We need to look at all of them . I mean but , they 're even like {vocalsound} {pause} I mean like , close to the end we were like , uh , you know we were like uh {vocalsound} really ad - hoc .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's a even distribution . Like , whatever .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Right ? Cuz if it 's like , uh {disfmarker} If it 's four things coming in , right ? And , say , some of them have like three possibilities and all that . So you 're thinking like {disfmarker} like a hundred and forty four or something {pause} possible things {disfmarker} numbers to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} That 's terrible .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "right ? So .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Some of them are completely absurd too , like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want to enter , but it 's closed ,", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "That 's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "it 's night time , you know there are tourists and all this weird stuff happens at the line up and you 're like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah , the only like possible interpretation is that they are like {disfmarker} come here just to rob the museum or {pause} something to that effect .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "confused .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "In which case you 're supposed to alert the authorities , {vocalsound} and see appropriate action .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , another thing to do , um , is also to , um {disfmarker} I guess to ask around people about other Bayes - net packages . Is Srini gonna be {pause} at the meeting tomorrow , do you know ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The day after tomorrow .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Wait {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Quite possibly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Wednesday .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Day after tomorrow .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , oh , sorry .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Sorry , Wednesday ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Who 's talking on Wednesday ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Maybe we can ask him about it .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "yeah . Mmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I haven't {disfmarker} J Jerry never sent out a {disfmarker} sent out an email , did he , ever ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "No . But he mentioned at the last meeting that someone was going to be talking , I forget who .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh , isn't Ben ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ben ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ben , then ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I think it 's Ben actually ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Ben .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah !", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "yeah , um , giving his job talk I think . um , Sorry . I was just reading the screen .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "So the uh {disfmarker} That will be one {disfmarker} one thing we could do . I actually uh , have {disfmarker} Um , also we can uh , start looking at the SmartKom tables and I will {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "I actually wanted to show that {pause} to you guys now but um .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Do you want to {pause} trade ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um , no I {disfmarker} I actually made a mistake because it {disfmarker} it fell asleep and when Linux falls asleep on my machine it 's {disfmarker} it doesn't wake up ever , so I had to reboot", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Oh , no .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And if I reboot without a network , I will not be able to start SmartKom , because I need to have a network .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "So we 'll do that t maybe uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "But . OK . But once you start {disfmarker} sart start SmartKom you can be on {disfmarker} You don't have to be on a network anymore . Is that the deal ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah , interesting .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Why does SmartKom need a network ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it looks up some stuff that , {pause} you know , is {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} is in the {disfmarker} written by the operating system only if it {disfmarker} if you get a DHCP request , so it {disfmarker} you know , my computer does not know its IP address , you know ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "You know . So . Unless it boots up with networking .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It 's plugged in . Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "And I don't have an IP address , they can't look up {disfmarker} they don't know who localhost is , and so forth and so forth .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Always fun . But it 's a , um , simple solution . We can just um , go downstairs and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and look at this , but maybe not today . The other thing um {disfmarker} I will {disfmarker} oh yeah , OK , I have to report {vocalsound} um , data collection . We interviewed Fey ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "She 's willing to do it , meaning be the wizard for the data collection , also {vocalsound} maybe transcribe a little bit , if she has to , but also recruiting subjects , organizing them , and so forth . So that looks good . Jerry however suggested that we should uh have a trial run with her , see whether she can actually do all the uh spontaneous , eloquent and creativeness that we uh expect of the wizard . And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So who would be the subject {pause} of this trial run ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Pardon me ?", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Who {disfmarker} Will there be a {disfmarker} Is one {disfmarker} Is you {disfmarker} one of you gonna be the subject ? Like are you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um Liz also volunteered to be the first subject , {vocalsound} which I think might be even better than us guys .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Good .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "One of us , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "If we do need her for the technical stuff , then of course one of you has to sort of uh {disfmarker} jump in .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I like how we 've {disfmarker} you guys have successfully narrowed it down . \" Is one of you going to be the subject ? \" Is one of you {disfmarker} jump in .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Reference . I haven't done it yet .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Well I just figured it has to be someone who 's , um , familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard , so we can , uh , see if they 're you know good .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Oh plants ? e u someone who can plant difficult things .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean that 's what we wanna {pause} check , right ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Um ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Well , in this case it 's a p it 's a {pause} sort of testing of the wizard rather than of the subject .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Isn't that what it is ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "It 's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "yes w we {disfmarker} we would like to test the wizard , but {vocalsound} you know , if we take a subject that is completely unfamiliar with the task , or any of the set up , we get a more realistic", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I guess that would be reasonable .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know , set up as {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know . That 's probably a good enough test of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Sort of having an actively antagonistic , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Yeah . That might be a little unfair . Um .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I 'm sure if we uh , {disfmarker} You think there 's a chance we might need Liz for , whatever , the technical side of things ? I 'm sure we can get {pause} other people around who don't know anything {pause} um , if we want another subject .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "You know . Like I can drag Ben into it or something . Although he might cause problems but . So , is it a experimental setup for the um , data collection {pause} totally {pause} ready {disfmarker} determined ?", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "I like that . \" Test the wizard . \" I want that on a T - shirt .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} experimental setup u on the technical issue yes , except we st I think we still need uh {disfmarker} a recording device for the wizard , just a tape recorder that 's running in a room .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker} in terms of specifying the scenario , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} we 've gotten a little further", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but um {disfmarker} we wanted to wait until we know who is the wizard , and have the wizard partake in the {pause} ultimate {pause} sort of definition probe . So {disfmarker} so if {disfmarker} if on Friday it turns out that she really likes it and {disfmarker} and we really like her , then nothing should stop us from sitting down next week and {vocalsound} {comment} getting all the details completely figured out .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So the ideal task um , {pause} will have {pause} whatever I don't know how much the structure of the evolving Bayes - net {vocalsound} {pause} will af affect {disfmarker} Like we wanna {disfmarker} we wanna be able to collect {vocalsound} as much of the variables that are needed for that ,", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Mmm - yea - some .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "right ? in the course of the task ? Well not all of them but you know .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Bu - e e e I 'm even {disfmarker} This {disfmarker} this Tango , Enter , Vista is sort of , itself , an ad - hoc scenario .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "The {disfmarker} the basic u um idea behind the uh {pause} data collection was the following . The data we get from Munich is {pause} very command line , simple linguistic stuff .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Hardly anything complicated . No metaphors whatsoever .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Not a rich language . So we wanted just to collect data , to get {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that {pause} elicits more , uh , that elicits richer language .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "And we actually did not want to constrain it too much ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "you know ? Just see what people say . And then maybe we 'll discover the phenomenon {disfmarker} the phenomena that we want to solve , you know , with {pause} whatever engine we {disfmarker} we come up with . Um . So this {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is a parallel track , you know , there {disfmarker} they hopefully meet ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK . So in other words this data collection is {pause} more general .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "but since {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "It could {disfmarker} it could {pause} be used for not just this task .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "It should tell us , you know , what kind of phenomenon could occur , it should tell us also maybe something about the difference between people who think they speak to a computer versus people who think they speak to a human being", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and the sort of differences there . So it may get us some more information on the human - machine pragmatics , um , that no one knows anything about , as of yesterday . And uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} nothing has changed {comment} since then , so . Uh . And secondly , now that of course we have sort of started to lick blood with this , and especially since um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Johno can't stop Tango - ing , {vocalsound} we may actually include , you know , those {disfmarker} those intentions . So now I think we should maybe have at least one navigational task with {disfmarker} with sort of explicit {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "not ex it 's implicit that the person wants to enter ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "and maybe some task where it 's more or less explicit that the person wants to take a picture ,", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "or see it or something . So that we can label it . I mean , that 's how we get a corpus that we can label .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Exactly .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "Whereas , you know , if we 'd just get data we 'd never know what they actually wanted , we 'd get no cues . Yep .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "Alrighty .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "That was that .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "So is this the official end of the meeting now ?", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Yep .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Looks like it .", "speaker": "Grad D" }, { "content": "So what 's \" Economics , the fallacy \" ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Ma", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "I just randomly {pause} label things . So that has nothing to do with economics or anything .", "speaker": "Grad B" }, { "content": "Oh , really ?", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "Maybe we ought to switch off these things before we continue .", "speaker": "Grad A" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad C" }, { "content": "OK . Switching o", "speaker": "Grad D" } ]

[ { "content": "Here we go . Welcome everybody . Um , I'm Abigail Claflin . You can call me Abbie . 'S see . PowerPoint , that's not it . There we go . So this is our kick off meeting . Um and I guess we should all get acquainted {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Let's {disfmarker} shall we all introduce ourselves ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the um Marketing Expert . Um , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we'll get around to that , yeah . So this is just introductions yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We'll get round to that later . My name is Chiara and I'm the Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} um so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm Stephanie and I am the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm Krista and I'm the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um so f here's our agenda for today . Um we're gonna do some tool training , project plan and discuss then close . {vocalsound} Um so . So our aim is to produce a remote control that is original , trendy and user friendly . And to do this , we have to {disfmarker} um there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . So . We'll get to that . Oh there it is . Right . Functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . So throughout our next couple of meetings we'll we'll be covering these things . Um {vocalsound} so we're gonna try out our white board . If we'll all draw our favourite animal , to sum up the characteristics of that animal . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think both . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Both . Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Why don't we do both . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Who starts ? We ought to decide who starts and {vocalsound} all that . No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Any volunteers ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , I gotta think about it for a second like . Uh {disfmarker} Does it have to be {vocalsound} functional , trendy and user friendly ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay , I'll draw . I'll draw one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Make sure {gap} my things here . Uh-oh . Right . Okay , my favourite animal is {disfmarker} see . {vocalsound} Oops .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A dolphin .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} 'S like playing Pictionary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I guess it has a fin on top too , yeah . {vocalsound} It's my dolphin .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I like its tail .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um , no , I think dolphins are really uh {disfmarker} I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} They're graceful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "they're graceful yeah , and they're so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sleek {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah they're sleek", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're {disfmarker} I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know how intelligent that one looks {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah he he doesn't look that smart {vocalsound} . He's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I dunno um they're {disfmarker} I think it's cool the the um {vocalsound} the interaction that or the th things that {disfmarker} the reasons people seem to like you know {disfmarker} you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Does anybody else wanna draw their animal ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Suppose I can draw an animal , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-oh there goes the ten .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know . They sleep all day , {vocalsound} they're easy to draw {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Do you wanna {gap} anything ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno if the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the pen is running out of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well I had the cat as well , but uh I've got a spare one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'll use the spare one . Um but it's harder to draw {gap} um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the pen's dying {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A horse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Horse .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . Um I don't {vocalsound} really know how the legs go ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's very good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but anyway I will do that . Um , and the main reason is they're pretty . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way um they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah . This cord's {disfmarker} {gap} Uh . Right . Actually I haven't thought of anything yet {vocalsound} . Uh {disfmarker} It's a pig .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . What do you think , yeah ? This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And furry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , well like a cat , you know , soft yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Textile {disfmarker} tactile , {vocalsound} tactile remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Although {disfmarker} uh I'll just put there . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're dragging a {disfmarker} you have a tail {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Oh my gosh , this is disastrous . Sorry about that . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So moving on . Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country {vocalsound} . Um , and we will hope to sell this internationally .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry can you just say that {disfmarker} what's the {disfmarker} what are our price goals again ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um selling price is twenty five Euro . Profit aim fifty million Euro .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How many should we sell then ? {vocalsound} Um , a lot ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Anyone a mathematician ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "two two two million , {gap} two mi no , more f four million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two million .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four million . And it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It is a lot . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So f that's a fifty percent um uh . Um , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . Experience with remote control . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what um we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . Um so do we have any initial ideas for uh how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , I think one thing is that it should be easy to find", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I was thinking that too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "bec yeah {vocalsound} bec", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we should design something that has like a {disfmarker} so you can {disfmarker} like somehow like you {disfmarker} I mean you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I've always wanted that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so like {vocalsound} you can push a button on your T_V_ {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean you have it for the portable phone , so why not {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And even I think a little light . Um or even a {disfmarker} maybe a vib a vibrating thing . I dunno but someth because it's usually under the sofa .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know if it's expensive maybe to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} yeah I mean it {disfmarker} but like I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe call is enough . But yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just I mean like your phone even just has so {disfmarker} like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What if it had something like um just like a magnet on the back of it and you could {disfmarker} I mean j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . You know like a portable phone has a base ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , or if it had a {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like just to have a home for it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well that's why it's always in the couch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , in in the couch {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe we should design couches that have the remote control in the side arm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah so we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the project is now couches and remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . But that would really make it more expensive .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's only a plastic thing , r really , the thing on the wall .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Something like that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the other thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bigger .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not {disfmarker} well it needs to be sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like Hand hand held size , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hand-sized .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I don't think you need a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not not huge , but {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But definitely not {disfmarker} well I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It can't be that hard to put some kind of a noise on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it can't be , uh-uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No it really wouldn't be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or like or like a light thing . You know . I dunno {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Like spaceship .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": ". Yeah {vocalsound} . Or make it mobile so it runs around and comes come find you yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That would be really {disfmarker} I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Little homing device . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So what do we think this remote control should {disfmarker} Five minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh dear .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Till the meeting {disfmarker} oh right . This is what we have left . Um , oh we just {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause I hate that when they have too many buttons and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} B_ button and the F_ button , they don't do anything .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . So .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} what if um may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . Like the way a mobile phone does .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That would be cool .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean it just seems like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you could like um {disfmarker} like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can {disfmarker} the way you do it on your radio is that you uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "what do you call it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Select . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's something we could decide . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I guess they would go together somehow ? I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , I don't know if it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it's e expensive , if you have {disfmarker} if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then use the telly as a screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm thinking kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But yeah for sure . Something like not {disfmarker} it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "is that what you mean ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like you h you see those you know people {disfmarker} I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those {disfmarker} these things that at their house you know {disfmarker} their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that {disfmarker} and it's like a hand held like {disfmarker} turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like {disfmarker} so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if {disfmarker} it must be {disfmarker} it would probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "must be ex too expensive though t like I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But like mobile phones have screens and they're cheap .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , we have to remember our budget is twelve point {disfmarker} twelve fifty for {disfmarker} to actually make the device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um but it's something to think about , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I guess we have to get to that later , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean we'll have to see how much that would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or some {disfmarker} it i we can find out probably on the internet {vocalsound} how much it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What was the word ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Furry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Water resistant .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I was just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No but it's {disfmarker} I thought , ah , spot on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "maybe something didn doesn't make your hands sweat lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm , mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite annoying .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe um just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like that's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , clip . Ooh {vocalsound} . Um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um . We should probably start wrapping up , um we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . Um , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . Um . So . Yeah . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah {vocalsound} um is going to be looking more into the working design . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and um that sort of thing . The something , what is the U_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "User .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , what does it stand for again ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's me . Uh , User Interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "User Interface Designer . So that's gonna be more technical . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So technical function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The working design is the structure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , I guess you'd have to find out {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It says on that email but it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It was in the email .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It does but it {disfmarker} I just don't really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I wrote down what mine were .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It said um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It said {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What effect should the thing ha should it have , okay . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And working design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Be a medium between you and the telly I think ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And how it works , okay . Right . I'm I'm on task .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the M_E_ , what does that stand for {vocalsound} ? M", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Marketing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing , right . Um {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Marketing . Oh it's written here , but um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we'll be working on the user requirements , um {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I guess that wraps it up . I'll see you all in thirty minutes . I just did .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Here we go . Welcome everybody . Um , I'm Abigail Claflin . You can call me Abbie . 'S see . PowerPoint , that's not it . There we go . So this is our kick off meeting . Um and I guess we should all get acquainted {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Let's {disfmarker} shall we all introduce ourselves ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the um Marketing Expert . Um , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we'll get around to that , yeah . So this is just introductions yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We'll get round to that later . My name is Chiara and I'm the Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} um so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm Stephanie and I am the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm Krista and I'm the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um so f here's our agenda for today . Um we're gonna do some tool training , project plan and discuss then close . {vocalsound} Um so . So our aim is to produce a remote control that is original , trendy and user friendly . And to do this , we have to {disfmarker} um there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . So . We'll get to that . Oh there it is . Right . Functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . So throughout our next couple of meetings we'll we'll be covering these things . Um {vocalsound} so we're gonna try out our white board . If we'll all draw our favourite animal , to sum up the characteristics of that animal . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think both . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Both . Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Why don't we do both . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Who starts ? We ought to decide who starts and {vocalsound} all that . No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Any volunteers ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , I gotta think about it for a second like . Uh {disfmarker} Does it have to be {vocalsound} functional , trendy and user friendly ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay , I'll draw . I'll draw one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Make sure {gap} my things here . Uh-oh . Right . Okay , my favourite animal is {disfmarker} see . {vocalsound} Oops .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A dolphin .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} 'S like playing Pictionary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I guess it has a fin on top too , yeah . {vocalsound} It's my dolphin .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I like its tail .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um , no , I think dolphins are really uh {disfmarker} I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} They're graceful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "they're graceful yeah , and they're so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sleek {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah they're sleek", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're {disfmarker} I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know how intelligent that one looks {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah he he doesn't look that smart {vocalsound} . He's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I dunno um they're {disfmarker} I think it's cool the the um {vocalsound} the interaction that or the th things that {disfmarker} the reasons people seem to like you know {disfmarker} you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Does anybody else wanna draw their animal ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Suppose I can draw an animal , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-oh there goes the ten .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know . They sleep all day , {vocalsound} they're easy to draw {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Do you wanna {gap} anything ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno if the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the pen is running out of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well I had the cat as well , but uh I've got a spare one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'll use the spare one . Um but it's harder to draw {gap} um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the pen's dying {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A horse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Horse .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . Um I don't {vocalsound} really know how the legs go ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's very good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but anyway I will do that . Um , and the main reason is they're pretty . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way um they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah . This cord's {disfmarker} {gap} Uh . Right . Actually I haven't thought of anything yet {vocalsound} . Uh {disfmarker} It's a pig .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . What do you think , yeah ? This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And furry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , well like a cat , you know , soft yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Textile {disfmarker} tactile , {vocalsound} tactile remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Although {disfmarker} uh I'll just put there . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're dragging a {disfmarker} you have a tail {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Oh my gosh , this is disastrous . Sorry about that . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So moving on . Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country {vocalsound} . Um , and we will hope to sell this internationally .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry can you just say that {disfmarker} what's the {disfmarker} what are our price goals again ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um selling price is twenty five Euro . Profit aim fifty million Euro .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How many should we sell then ? {vocalsound} Um , a lot ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Anyone a mathematician ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "two two two million , {gap} two mi no , more f four million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two million .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four million . And it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It is a lot . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So f that's a fifty percent um uh . Um , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . Experience with remote control . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what um we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . Um so do we have any initial ideas for uh how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , I think one thing is that it should be easy to find", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I was thinking that too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "bec yeah {vocalsound} bec", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we should design something that has like a {disfmarker} so you can {disfmarker} like somehow like you {disfmarker} I mean you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I've always wanted that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so like {vocalsound} you can push a button on your T_V_ {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean you have it for the portable phone , so why not {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And even I think a little light . Um or even a {disfmarker} maybe a vib a vibrating thing . I dunno but someth because it's usually under the sofa .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know if it's expensive maybe to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} yeah I mean it {disfmarker} but like I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe call is enough . But yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just I mean like your phone even just has so {disfmarker} like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What if it had something like um just like a magnet on the back of it and you could {disfmarker} I mean j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . You know like a portable phone has a base ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , or if it had a {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like just to have a home for it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well that's why it's always in the couch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , in in the couch {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe we should design couches that have the remote control in the side arm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah so we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the project is now couches and remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . But that would really make it more expensive .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's only a plastic thing , r really , the thing on the wall .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Something like that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the other thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bigger .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not {disfmarker} well it needs to be sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like Hand hand held size , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hand-sized .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I don't think you need a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not not huge , but {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But definitely not {disfmarker} well I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It can't be that hard to put some kind of a noise on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it can't be , uh-uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No it really wouldn't be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or like or like a light thing . You know . I dunno {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Like spaceship .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": ". Yeah {vocalsound} . Or make it mobile so it runs around and comes come find you yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That would be really {disfmarker} I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Little homing device . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So what do we think this remote control should {disfmarker} Five minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh dear .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Till the meeting {disfmarker} oh right . This is what we have left . Um , oh we just {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause I hate that when they have too many buttons and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} B_ button and the F_ button , they don't do anything .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . So .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} what if um may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . Like the way a mobile phone does .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That would be cool .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean it just seems like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you could like um {disfmarker} like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can {disfmarker} the way you do it on your radio is that you uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "what do you call it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Select . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's something we could decide . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I guess they would go together somehow ? I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , I don't know if it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it's e expensive , if you have {disfmarker} if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then use the telly as a screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm thinking kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But yeah for sure . Something like not {disfmarker} it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "is that what you mean ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like you h you see those you know people {disfmarker} I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those {disfmarker} these things that at their house you know {disfmarker} their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that {disfmarker} and it's like a hand held like {disfmarker} turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like {disfmarker} so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if {disfmarker} it must be {disfmarker} it would probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "must be ex too expensive though t like I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But like mobile phones have screens and they're cheap .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , we have to remember our budget is twelve point {disfmarker} twelve fifty for {disfmarker} to actually make the device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um but it's something to think about , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I guess we have to get to that later , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean we'll have to see how much that would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or some {disfmarker} it i we can find out probably on the internet {vocalsound} how much it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What was the word ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Furry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Water resistant .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I was just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No but it's {disfmarker} I thought , ah , spot on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "maybe something didn doesn't make your hands sweat lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm , mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite annoying .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe um just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like that's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , clip . Ooh {vocalsound} . Um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um . We should probably start wrapping up , um we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . Um , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . Um . So . Yeah . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah {vocalsound} um is going to be looking more into the working design . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and um that sort of thing . The something , what is the U_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "User .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , what does it stand for again ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's me . Uh , User Interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "User Interface Designer . So that's gonna be more technical . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So technical function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The working design is the structure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , I guess you'd have to find out {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It says on that email but it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It was in the email .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It does but it {disfmarker} I just don't really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I wrote down what mine were .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It said um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It said {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What effect should the thing ha should it have , okay . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And working design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Be a medium between you and the telly I think ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And how it works , okay . Right . I'm I'm on task .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the M_E_ , what does that stand for {vocalsound} ? M", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Marketing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing , right . Um {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Marketing . Oh it's written here , but um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we'll be working on the user requirements , um {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I guess that wraps it up . I'll see you all in thirty minutes . I just did .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Here we go . Welcome everybody . Um , I'm Abigail Claflin . You can call me Abbie . 'S see . PowerPoint , that's not it . There we go . So this is our kick off meeting . Um and I guess we should all get acquainted {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Let's {disfmarker} shall we all introduce ourselves ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the um Marketing Expert . Um , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we'll get around to that , yeah . So this is just introductions yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We'll get round to that later . My name is Chiara and I'm the Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} um so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm Stephanie and I am the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm Krista and I'm the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um so f here's our agenda for today . Um we're gonna do some tool training , project plan and discuss then close . {vocalsound} Um so . So our aim is to produce a remote control that is original , trendy and user friendly . And to do this , we have to {disfmarker} um there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . So . We'll get to that . Oh there it is . Right . Functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . So throughout our next couple of meetings we'll we'll be covering these things . Um {vocalsound} so we're gonna try out our white board . If we'll all draw our favourite animal , to sum up the characteristics of that animal . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think both . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Both . Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Why don't we do both . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Who starts ? We ought to decide who starts and {vocalsound} all that . No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Any volunteers ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , I gotta think about it for a second like . Uh {disfmarker} Does it have to be {vocalsound} functional , trendy and user friendly ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay , I'll draw . I'll draw one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Make sure {gap} my things here . Uh-oh . Right . Okay , my favourite animal is {disfmarker} see . {vocalsound} Oops .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A dolphin .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} 'S like playing Pictionary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I guess it has a fin on top too , yeah . {vocalsound} It's my dolphin .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I like its tail .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um , no , I think dolphins are really uh {disfmarker} I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} They're graceful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "they're graceful yeah , and they're so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sleek {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah they're sleek", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're {disfmarker} I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know how intelligent that one looks {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah he he doesn't look that smart {vocalsound} . He's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I dunno um they're {disfmarker} I think it's cool the the um {vocalsound} the interaction that or the th things that {disfmarker} the reasons people seem to like you know {disfmarker} you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Does anybody else wanna draw their animal ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Suppose I can draw an animal , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-oh there goes the ten .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know . They sleep all day , {vocalsound} they're easy to draw {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Do you wanna {gap} anything ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno if the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the pen is running out of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well I had the cat as well , but uh I've got a spare one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'll use the spare one . Um but it's harder to draw {gap} um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the pen's dying {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A horse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Horse .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . Um I don't {vocalsound} really know how the legs go ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's very good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but anyway I will do that . Um , and the main reason is they're pretty . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way um they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah . This cord's {disfmarker} {gap} Uh . Right . Actually I haven't thought of anything yet {vocalsound} . Uh {disfmarker} It's a pig .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . What do you think , yeah ? This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And furry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , well like a cat , you know , soft yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Textile {disfmarker} tactile , {vocalsound} tactile remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Although {disfmarker} uh I'll just put there . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're dragging a {disfmarker} you have a tail {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Oh my gosh , this is disastrous . Sorry about that . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So moving on . Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country {vocalsound} . Um , and we will hope to sell this internationally .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry can you just say that {disfmarker} what's the {disfmarker} what are our price goals again ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um selling price is twenty five Euro . Profit aim fifty million Euro .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How many should we sell then ? {vocalsound} Um , a lot ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Anyone a mathematician ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "two two two million , {gap} two mi no , more f four million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two million .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four million . And it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It is a lot . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So f that's a fifty percent um uh . Um , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . Experience with remote control . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what um we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . Um so do we have any initial ideas for uh how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , I think one thing is that it should be easy to find", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I was thinking that too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "bec yeah {vocalsound} bec", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we should design something that has like a {disfmarker} so you can {disfmarker} like somehow like you {disfmarker} I mean you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I've always wanted that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so like {vocalsound} you can push a button on your T_V_ {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean you have it for the portable phone , so why not {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And even I think a little light . Um or even a {disfmarker} maybe a vib a vibrating thing . I dunno but someth because it's usually under the sofa .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know if it's expensive maybe to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} yeah I mean it {disfmarker} but like I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe call is enough . But yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just I mean like your phone even just has so {disfmarker} like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What if it had something like um just like a magnet on the back of it and you could {disfmarker} I mean j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . You know like a portable phone has a base ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , or if it had a {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like just to have a home for it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well that's why it's always in the couch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , in in the couch {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe we should design couches that have the remote control in the side arm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah so we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the project is now couches and remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . But that would really make it more expensive .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's only a plastic thing , r really , the thing on the wall .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Something like that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the other thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bigger .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not {disfmarker} well it needs to be sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like Hand hand held size , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hand-sized .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I don't think you need a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not not huge , but {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But definitely not {disfmarker} well I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It can't be that hard to put some kind of a noise on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it can't be , uh-uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No it really wouldn't be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or like or like a light thing . You know . I dunno {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Like spaceship .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": ". Yeah {vocalsound} . Or make it mobile so it runs around and comes come find you yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That would be really {disfmarker} I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Little homing device . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So what do we think this remote control should {disfmarker} Five minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh dear .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Till the meeting {disfmarker} oh right . This is what we have left . Um , oh we just {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause I hate that when they have too many buttons and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} B_ button and the F_ button , they don't do anything .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . So .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} what if um may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . Like the way a mobile phone does .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That would be cool .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean it just seems like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you could like um {disfmarker} like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can {disfmarker} the way you do it on your radio is that you uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "what do you call it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Select . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's something we could decide . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I guess they would go together somehow ? I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , I don't know if it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it's e expensive , if you have {disfmarker} if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then use the telly as a screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm thinking kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But yeah for sure . Something like not {disfmarker} it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "is that what you mean ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like you h you see those you know people {disfmarker} I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those {disfmarker} these things that at their house you know {disfmarker} their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that {disfmarker} and it's like a hand held like {disfmarker} turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like {disfmarker} so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if {disfmarker} it must be {disfmarker} it would probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "must be ex too expensive though t like I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But like mobile phones have screens and they're cheap .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , we have to remember our budget is twelve point {disfmarker} twelve fifty for {disfmarker} to actually make the device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um but it's something to think about , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I guess we have to get to that later , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean we'll have to see how much that would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or some {disfmarker} it i we can find out probably on the internet {vocalsound} how much it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What was the word ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Furry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Water resistant .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I was just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No but it's {disfmarker} I thought , ah , spot on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "maybe something didn doesn't make your hands sweat lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm , mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite annoying .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe um just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like that's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , clip . Ooh {vocalsound} . Um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um . We should probably start wrapping up , um we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . Um , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . Um . So . Yeah . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah {vocalsound} um is going to be looking more into the working design . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and um that sort of thing . The something , what is the U_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "User .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , what does it stand for again ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's me . Uh , User Interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "User Interface Designer . So that's gonna be more technical . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So technical function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The working design is the structure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , I guess you'd have to find out {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It says on that email but it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It was in the email .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It does but it {disfmarker} I just don't really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I wrote down what mine were .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It said um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It said {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What effect should the thing ha should it have , okay . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And working design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Be a medium between you and the telly I think ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And how it works , okay . Right . I'm I'm on task .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the M_E_ , what does that stand for {vocalsound} ? M", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Marketing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing , right . Um {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Marketing . Oh it's written here , but um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we'll be working on the user requirements , um {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I guess that wraps it up . I'll see you all in thirty minutes . I just did .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Here we go . Welcome everybody . Um , I'm Abigail Claflin . You can call me Abbie . 'S see . PowerPoint , that's not it . There we go . So this is our kick off meeting . Um and I guess we should all get acquainted {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Let's {disfmarker} shall we all introduce ourselves ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the um Marketing Expert . Um , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we'll get around to that , yeah . So this is just introductions yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We'll get round to that later . My name is Chiara and I'm the Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} um so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm Stephanie and I am the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm Krista and I'm the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um so f here's our agenda for today . Um we're gonna do some tool training , project plan and discuss then close . {vocalsound} Um so . So our aim is to produce a remote control that is original , trendy and user friendly . And to do this , we have to {disfmarker} um there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . So . We'll get to that . Oh there it is . Right . Functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . So throughout our next couple of meetings we'll we'll be covering these things . Um {vocalsound} so we're gonna try out our white board . If we'll all draw our favourite animal , to sum up the characteristics of that animal . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think both . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Both . Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Why don't we do both . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Who starts ? We ought to decide who starts and {vocalsound} all that . No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Any volunteers ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , I gotta think about it for a second like . Uh {disfmarker} Does it have to be {vocalsound} functional , trendy and user friendly ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay , I'll draw . I'll draw one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Make sure {gap} my things here . Uh-oh . Right . Okay , my favourite animal is {disfmarker} see . {vocalsound} Oops .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A dolphin .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} 'S like playing Pictionary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I guess it has a fin on top too , yeah . {vocalsound} It's my dolphin .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I like its tail .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um , no , I think dolphins are really uh {disfmarker} I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} They're graceful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "they're graceful yeah , and they're so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sleek {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah they're sleek", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're {disfmarker} I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know how intelligent that one looks {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah he he doesn't look that smart {vocalsound} . He's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I dunno um they're {disfmarker} I think it's cool the the um {vocalsound} the interaction that or the th things that {disfmarker} the reasons people seem to like you know {disfmarker} you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Does anybody else wanna draw their animal ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Suppose I can draw an animal , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-oh there goes the ten .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know . They sleep all day , {vocalsound} they're easy to draw {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Do you wanna {gap} anything ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno if the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the pen is running out of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well I had the cat as well , but uh I've got a spare one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'll use the spare one . Um but it's harder to draw {gap} um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the pen's dying {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A horse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Horse .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . Um I don't {vocalsound} really know how the legs go ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's very good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but anyway I will do that . Um , and the main reason is they're pretty . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way um they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah . This cord's {disfmarker} {gap} Uh . Right . Actually I haven't thought of anything yet {vocalsound} . Uh {disfmarker} It's a pig .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . What do you think , yeah ? This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And furry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , well like a cat , you know , soft yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Textile {disfmarker} tactile , {vocalsound} tactile remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Although {disfmarker} uh I'll just put there . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're dragging a {disfmarker} you have a tail {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Oh my gosh , this is disastrous . Sorry about that . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So moving on . Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country {vocalsound} . Um , and we will hope to sell this internationally .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry can you just say that {disfmarker} what's the {disfmarker} what are our price goals again ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um selling price is twenty five Euro . Profit aim fifty million Euro .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How many should we sell then ? {vocalsound} Um , a lot ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Anyone a mathematician ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "two two two million , {gap} two mi no , more f four million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two million .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four million . And it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It is a lot . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So f that's a fifty percent um uh . Um , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . Experience with remote control . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what um we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . Um so do we have any initial ideas for uh how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , I think one thing is that it should be easy to find", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I was thinking that too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "bec yeah {vocalsound} bec", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we should design something that has like a {disfmarker} so you can {disfmarker} like somehow like you {disfmarker} I mean you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I've always wanted that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so like {vocalsound} you can push a button on your T_V_ {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean you have it for the portable phone , so why not {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And even I think a little light . Um or even a {disfmarker} maybe a vib a vibrating thing . I dunno but someth because it's usually under the sofa .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know if it's expensive maybe to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} yeah I mean it {disfmarker} but like I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe call is enough . But yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just I mean like your phone even just has so {disfmarker} like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What if it had something like um just like a magnet on the back of it and you could {disfmarker} I mean j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . You know like a portable phone has a base ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , or if it had a {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like just to have a home for it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well that's why it's always in the couch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , in in the couch {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe we should design couches that have the remote control in the side arm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah so we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the project is now couches and remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . But that would really make it more expensive .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's only a plastic thing , r really , the thing on the wall .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Something like that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the other thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bigger .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not {disfmarker} well it needs to be sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like Hand hand held size , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hand-sized .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I don't think you need a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not not huge , but {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But definitely not {disfmarker} well I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It can't be that hard to put some kind of a noise on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it can't be , uh-uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No it really wouldn't be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or like or like a light thing . You know . I dunno {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Like spaceship .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": ". Yeah {vocalsound} . Or make it mobile so it runs around and comes come find you yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That would be really {disfmarker} I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Little homing device . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So what do we think this remote control should {disfmarker} Five minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh dear .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Till the meeting {disfmarker} oh right . This is what we have left . Um , oh we just {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause I hate that when they have too many buttons and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} B_ button and the F_ button , they don't do anything .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . So .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} what if um may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . Like the way a mobile phone does .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That would be cool .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean it just seems like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you could like um {disfmarker} like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can {disfmarker} the way you do it on your radio is that you uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "what do you call it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Select . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's something we could decide . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I guess they would go together somehow ? I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , I don't know if it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it's e expensive , if you have {disfmarker} if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then use the telly as a screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm thinking kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But yeah for sure . Something like not {disfmarker} it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "is that what you mean ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like you h you see those you know people {disfmarker} I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those {disfmarker} these things that at their house you know {disfmarker} their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that {disfmarker} and it's like a hand held like {disfmarker} turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like {disfmarker} so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if {disfmarker} it must be {disfmarker} it would probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "must be ex too expensive though t like I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But like mobile phones have screens and they're cheap .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , we have to remember our budget is twelve point {disfmarker} twelve fifty for {disfmarker} to actually make the device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um but it's something to think about , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I guess we have to get to that later , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean we'll have to see how much that would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or some {disfmarker} it i we can find out probably on the internet {vocalsound} how much it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What was the word ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Furry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Water resistant .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I was just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No but it's {disfmarker} I thought , ah , spot on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "maybe something didn doesn't make your hands sweat lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm , mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite annoying .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe um just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like that's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , clip . Ooh {vocalsound} . Um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um . We should probably start wrapping up , um we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . Um , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . Um . So . Yeah . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah {vocalsound} um is going to be looking more into the working design . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and um that sort of thing . The something , what is the U_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "User .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , what does it stand for again ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's me . Uh , User Interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "User Interface Designer . So that's gonna be more technical . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So technical function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The working design is the structure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , I guess you'd have to find out {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It says on that email but it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It was in the email .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It does but it {disfmarker} I just don't really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I wrote down what mine were .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It said um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It said {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What effect should the thing ha should it have , okay . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And working design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Be a medium between you and the telly I think ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And how it works , okay . Right . I'm I'm on task .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the M_E_ , what does that stand for {vocalsound} ? M", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Marketing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing , right . Um {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Marketing . Oh it's written here , but um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we'll be working on the user requirements , um {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I guess that wraps it up . I'll see you all in thirty minutes . I just did .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Here we go . Welcome everybody . Um , I'm Abigail Claflin . You can call me Abbie . 'S see . PowerPoint , that's not it . There we go . So this is our kick off meeting . Um and I guess we should all get acquainted {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Let's {disfmarker} shall we all introduce ourselves ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the um Marketing Expert . Um , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we'll get around to that , yeah . So this is just introductions yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We'll get round to that later . My name is Chiara and I'm the Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} um so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm Stephanie and I am the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm Krista and I'm the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um so f here's our agenda for today . Um we're gonna do some tool training , project plan and discuss then close . {vocalsound} Um so . So our aim is to produce a remote control that is original , trendy and user friendly . And to do this , we have to {disfmarker} um there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . So . We'll get to that . Oh there it is . Right . Functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . So throughout our next couple of meetings we'll we'll be covering these things . Um {vocalsound} so we're gonna try out our white board . If we'll all draw our favourite animal , to sum up the characteristics of that animal . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think both . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Both . Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Why don't we do both . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Who starts ? We ought to decide who starts and {vocalsound} all that . No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Any volunteers ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , I gotta think about it for a second like . Uh {disfmarker} Does it have to be {vocalsound} functional , trendy and user friendly ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay , I'll draw . I'll draw one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Make sure {gap} my things here . Uh-oh . Right . Okay , my favourite animal is {disfmarker} see . {vocalsound} Oops .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A dolphin .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} 'S like playing Pictionary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I guess it has a fin on top too , yeah . {vocalsound} It's my dolphin .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I like its tail .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um , no , I think dolphins are really uh {disfmarker} I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} They're graceful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "they're graceful yeah , and they're so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sleek {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah they're sleek", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're {disfmarker} I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know how intelligent that one looks {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah he he doesn't look that smart {vocalsound} . He's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I dunno um they're {disfmarker} I think it's cool the the um {vocalsound} the interaction that or the th things that {disfmarker} the reasons people seem to like you know {disfmarker} you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Does anybody else wanna draw their animal ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Suppose I can draw an animal , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-oh there goes the ten .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know . They sleep all day , {vocalsound} they're easy to draw {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Do you wanna {gap} anything ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno if the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the pen is running out of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well I had the cat as well , but uh I've got a spare one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'll use the spare one . Um but it's harder to draw {gap} um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the pen's dying {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A horse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Horse .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . Um I don't {vocalsound} really know how the legs go ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's very good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but anyway I will do that . Um , and the main reason is they're pretty . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way um they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah . This cord's {disfmarker} {gap} Uh . Right . Actually I haven't thought of anything yet {vocalsound} . Uh {disfmarker} It's a pig .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . What do you think , yeah ? This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And furry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , well like a cat , you know , soft yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Textile {disfmarker} tactile , {vocalsound} tactile remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Although {disfmarker} uh I'll just put there . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're dragging a {disfmarker} you have a tail {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Oh my gosh , this is disastrous . Sorry about that . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So moving on . Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country {vocalsound} . Um , and we will hope to sell this internationally .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry can you just say that {disfmarker} what's the {disfmarker} what are our price goals again ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um selling price is twenty five Euro . Profit aim fifty million Euro .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How many should we sell then ? {vocalsound} Um , a lot ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Anyone a mathematician ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "two two two million , {gap} two mi no , more f four million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two million .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four million . And it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It is a lot . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So f that's a fifty percent um uh . Um , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . Experience with remote control . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what um we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . Um so do we have any initial ideas for uh how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , I think one thing is that it should be easy to find", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I was thinking that too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "bec yeah {vocalsound} bec", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we should design something that has like a {disfmarker} so you can {disfmarker} like somehow like you {disfmarker} I mean you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I've always wanted that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so like {vocalsound} you can push a button on your T_V_ {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean you have it for the portable phone , so why not {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And even I think a little light . Um or even a {disfmarker} maybe a vib a vibrating thing . I dunno but someth because it's usually under the sofa .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know if it's expensive maybe to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} yeah I mean it {disfmarker} but like I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe call is enough . But yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just I mean like your phone even just has so {disfmarker} like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What if it had something like um just like a magnet on the back of it and you could {disfmarker} I mean j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . You know like a portable phone has a base ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , or if it had a {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like just to have a home for it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well that's why it's always in the couch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , in in the couch {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe we should design couches that have the remote control in the side arm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah so we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the project is now couches and remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . But that would really make it more expensive .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's only a plastic thing , r really , the thing on the wall .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Something like that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the other thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bigger .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not {disfmarker} well it needs to be sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like Hand hand held size , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hand-sized .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I don't think you need a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not not huge , but {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But definitely not {disfmarker} well I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It can't be that hard to put some kind of a noise on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it can't be , uh-uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No it really wouldn't be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or like or like a light thing . You know . I dunno {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Like spaceship .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": ". Yeah {vocalsound} . Or make it mobile so it runs around and comes come find you yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That would be really {disfmarker} I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Little homing device . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So what do we think this remote control should {disfmarker} Five minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh dear .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Till the meeting {disfmarker} oh right . This is what we have left . Um , oh we just {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause I hate that when they have too many buttons and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} B_ button and the F_ button , they don't do anything .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . So .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} what if um may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . Like the way a mobile phone does .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That would be cool .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean it just seems like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you could like um {disfmarker} like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can {disfmarker} the way you do it on your radio is that you uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "what do you call it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Select . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's something we could decide . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I guess they would go together somehow ? I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , I don't know if it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it's e expensive , if you have {disfmarker} if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then use the telly as a screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm thinking kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But yeah for sure . Something like not {disfmarker} it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "is that what you mean ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like you h you see those you know people {disfmarker} I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those {disfmarker} these things that at their house you know {disfmarker} their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that {disfmarker} and it's like a hand held like {disfmarker} turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like {disfmarker} so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if {disfmarker} it must be {disfmarker} it would probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "must be ex too expensive though t like I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But like mobile phones have screens and they're cheap .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , we have to remember our budget is twelve point {disfmarker} twelve fifty for {disfmarker} to actually make the device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um but it's something to think about , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I guess we have to get to that later , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean we'll have to see how much that would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or some {disfmarker} it i we can find out probably on the internet {vocalsound} how much it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What was the word ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Furry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Water resistant .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I was just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No but it's {disfmarker} I thought , ah , spot on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "maybe something didn doesn't make your hands sweat lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm , mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite annoying .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe um just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like that's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , clip . Ooh {vocalsound} . Um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um . We should probably start wrapping up , um we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . Um , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . Um . So . Yeah . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah {vocalsound} um is going to be looking more into the working design . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and um that sort of thing . The something , what is the U_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "User .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , what does it stand for again ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's me . Uh , User Interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "User Interface Designer . So that's gonna be more technical . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So technical function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The working design is the structure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , I guess you'd have to find out {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It says on that email but it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It was in the email .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It does but it {disfmarker} I just don't really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I wrote down what mine were .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It said um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It said {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What effect should the thing ha should it have , okay . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And working design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Be a medium between you and the telly I think ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And how it works , okay . Right . I'm I'm on task .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the M_E_ , what does that stand for {vocalsound} ? M", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Marketing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing , right . Um {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Marketing . Oh it's written here , but um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we'll be working on the user requirements , um {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I guess that wraps it up . I'll see you all in thirty minutes . I just did .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Here we go . Welcome everybody . Um , I'm Abigail Claflin . You can call me Abbie . 'S see . PowerPoint , that's not it . There we go . So this is our kick off meeting . Um and I guess we should all get acquainted {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Let's {disfmarker} shall we all introduce ourselves ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the um Marketing Expert . Um , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we'll get around to that , yeah . So this is just introductions yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We'll get round to that later . My name is Chiara and I'm the Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} um so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm Stephanie and I am the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm Krista and I'm the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um so f here's our agenda for today . Um we're gonna do some tool training , project plan and discuss then close . {vocalsound} Um so . So our aim is to produce a remote control that is original , trendy and user friendly . And to do this , we have to {disfmarker} um there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . So . We'll get to that . Oh there it is . Right . Functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . So throughout our next couple of meetings we'll we'll be covering these things . Um {vocalsound} so we're gonna try out our white board . If we'll all draw our favourite animal , to sum up the characteristics of that animal . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think both . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Both . Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Why don't we do both . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Who starts ? We ought to decide who starts and {vocalsound} all that . No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Any volunteers ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , I gotta think about it for a second like . Uh {disfmarker} Does it have to be {vocalsound} functional , trendy and user friendly ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay , I'll draw . I'll draw one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Make sure {gap} my things here . Uh-oh . Right . Okay , my favourite animal is {disfmarker} see . {vocalsound} Oops .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A dolphin .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} 'S like playing Pictionary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I guess it has a fin on top too , yeah . {vocalsound} It's my dolphin .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I like its tail .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um , no , I think dolphins are really uh {disfmarker} I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} They're graceful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "they're graceful yeah , and they're so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sleek {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah they're sleek", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're {disfmarker} I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know how intelligent that one looks {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah he he doesn't look that smart {vocalsound} . He's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I dunno um they're {disfmarker} I think it's cool the the um {vocalsound} the interaction that or the th things that {disfmarker} the reasons people seem to like you know {disfmarker} you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Does anybody else wanna draw their animal ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Suppose I can draw an animal , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-oh there goes the ten .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know . They sleep all day , {vocalsound} they're easy to draw {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Do you wanna {gap} anything ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno if the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the pen is running out of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well I had the cat as well , but uh I've got a spare one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'll use the spare one . Um but it's harder to draw {gap} um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the pen's dying {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A horse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Horse .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . Um I don't {vocalsound} really know how the legs go ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's very good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but anyway I will do that . Um , and the main reason is they're pretty . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way um they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah . This cord's {disfmarker} {gap} Uh . Right . Actually I haven't thought of anything yet {vocalsound} . Uh {disfmarker} It's a pig .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . What do you think , yeah ? This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And furry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , well like a cat , you know , soft yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Textile {disfmarker} tactile , {vocalsound} tactile remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Although {disfmarker} uh I'll just put there . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're dragging a {disfmarker} you have a tail {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Oh my gosh , this is disastrous . Sorry about that . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So moving on . Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country {vocalsound} . Um , and we will hope to sell this internationally .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry can you just say that {disfmarker} what's the {disfmarker} what are our price goals again ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um selling price is twenty five Euro . Profit aim fifty million Euro .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How many should we sell then ? {vocalsound} Um , a lot ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Anyone a mathematician ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "two two two million , {gap} two mi no , more f four million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two million .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four million . And it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It is a lot . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So f that's a fifty percent um uh . Um , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . Experience with remote control . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what um we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . Um so do we have any initial ideas for uh how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , I think one thing is that it should be easy to find", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I was thinking that too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "bec yeah {vocalsound} bec", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we should design something that has like a {disfmarker} so you can {disfmarker} like somehow like you {disfmarker} I mean you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I've always wanted that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so like {vocalsound} you can push a button on your T_V_ {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean you have it for the portable phone , so why not {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And even I think a little light . Um or even a {disfmarker} maybe a vib a vibrating thing . I dunno but someth because it's usually under the sofa .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know if it's expensive maybe to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} yeah I mean it {disfmarker} but like I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe call is enough . But yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just I mean like your phone even just has so {disfmarker} like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What if it had something like um just like a magnet on the back of it and you could {disfmarker} I mean j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . You know like a portable phone has a base ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , or if it had a {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like just to have a home for it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well that's why it's always in the couch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , in in the couch {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe we should design couches that have the remote control in the side arm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah so we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the project is now couches and remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . But that would really make it more expensive .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's only a plastic thing , r really , the thing on the wall .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Something like that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the other thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bigger .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not {disfmarker} well it needs to be sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like Hand hand held size , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hand-sized .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I don't think you need a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not not huge , but {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But definitely not {disfmarker} well I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It can't be that hard to put some kind of a noise on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it can't be , uh-uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No it really wouldn't be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or like or like a light thing . You know . I dunno {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Like spaceship .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": ". Yeah {vocalsound} . Or make it mobile so it runs around and comes come find you yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That would be really {disfmarker} I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Little homing device . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So what do we think this remote control should {disfmarker} Five minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh dear .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Till the meeting {disfmarker} oh right . This is what we have left . Um , oh we just {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause I hate that when they have too many buttons and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} B_ button and the F_ button , they don't do anything .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . So .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} what if um may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . Like the way a mobile phone does .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That would be cool .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean it just seems like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you could like um {disfmarker} like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can {disfmarker} the way you do it on your radio is that you uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "what do you call it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Select . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's something we could decide . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I guess they would go together somehow ? I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , I don't know if it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it's e expensive , if you have {disfmarker} if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then use the telly as a screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm thinking kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But yeah for sure . Something like not {disfmarker} it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "is that what you mean ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like you h you see those you know people {disfmarker} I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those {disfmarker} these things that at their house you know {disfmarker} their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that {disfmarker} and it's like a hand held like {disfmarker} turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like {disfmarker} so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if {disfmarker} it must be {disfmarker} it would probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "must be ex too expensive though t like I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But like mobile phones have screens and they're cheap .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , we have to remember our budget is twelve point {disfmarker} twelve fifty for {disfmarker} to actually make the device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um but it's something to think about , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I guess we have to get to that later , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean we'll have to see how much that would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or some {disfmarker} it i we can find out probably on the internet {vocalsound} how much it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What was the word ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Furry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Water resistant .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I was just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No but it's {disfmarker} I thought , ah , spot on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "maybe something didn doesn't make your hands sweat lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm , mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite annoying .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe um just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like that's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , clip . Ooh {vocalsound} . Um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um . We should probably start wrapping up , um we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . Um , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . Um . So . Yeah . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah {vocalsound} um is going to be looking more into the working design . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and um that sort of thing . The something , what is the U_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "User .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , what does it stand for again ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's me . Uh , User Interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "User Interface Designer . So that's gonna be more technical . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So technical function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The working design is the structure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , I guess you'd have to find out {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It says on that email but it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It was in the email .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It does but it {disfmarker} I just don't really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I wrote down what mine were .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It said um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It said {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What effect should the thing ha should it have , okay . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And working design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Be a medium between you and the telly I think ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And how it works , okay . Right . I'm I'm on task .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the M_E_ , what does that stand for {vocalsound} ? M", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Marketing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing , right . Um {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Marketing . Oh it's written here , but um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we'll be working on the user requirements , um {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I guess that wraps it up . I'll see you all in thirty minutes . I just did .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Here we go . Welcome everybody . Um , I'm Abigail Claflin . You can call me Abbie . 'S see . PowerPoint , that's not it . There we go . So this is our kick off meeting . Um and I guess we should all get acquainted {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Let's {disfmarker} shall we all introduce ourselves ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hi I'm Chiara , I'm the um Marketing Expert . Um , would you like me to talk about my aims at the moment , or would you like me to just say my name and then we can talk about business later ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I think we'll get around to that , yeah . So this is just introductions yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "We'll get round to that later . My name is Chiara and I'm the Marketing Expert .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . I forgot to s say I'm the Project Manager but I figured you all knew that already ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} um so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I'm Stephanie and I am the User Interface Designer .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I'm Krista and I'm the Industrial Designer .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um so f here's our agenda for today . Um we're gonna do some tool training , project plan and discuss then close . {vocalsound} Um so . So our aim is to produce a remote control that is original , trendy and user friendly . And to do this , we have to {disfmarker} um there's certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing . So . We'll get to that . Oh there it is . Right . Functional design , conceptual design and detailed design . So throughout our next couple of meetings we'll we'll be covering these things . Um {vocalsound} so we're gonna try out our white board . If we'll all draw our favourite animal , to sum up the characteristics of that animal . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think both . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Both . Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Why don't we do both . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Who starts ? We ought to decide who starts and {vocalsound} all that . No ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Any volunteers ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh-huh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Does anyone know what they wanna draw ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm , I gotta think about it for a second like . Uh {disfmarker} Does it have to be {vocalsound} functional , trendy and user friendly ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I don't think so .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um . Okay , I'll draw . I'll draw one .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Make sure {gap} my things here . Uh-oh . Right . Okay , my favourite animal is {disfmarker} see . {vocalsound} Oops .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "A dolphin .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} 'S like playing Pictionary .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah , I guess it has a fin on top too , yeah . {vocalsound} It's my dolphin .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I like its tail .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Um , no , I think dolphins are really uh {disfmarker} I dunno , they're smart and they they're cute and they like swimming and that's cool , like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} They're graceful .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "they're graceful yeah , and they're so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Sleek {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah they're sleek", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and they look intelligent and I don't know , they're {disfmarker} I guess it's the whole like binocular vision thing .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know how intelligent that one looks {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah he he doesn't look that smart {vocalsound} . He's a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I dunno um they're {disfmarker} I think it's cool the the um {vocalsound} the interaction that or the th things that {disfmarker} the reasons people seem to like you know {disfmarker} you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they're like oh look there's dolphins and it's kinda like {vocalsound} {disfmarker} but they're you know they jump around in the water and they're happy and they're mammals , but they swim . {gap} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} Does anybody else wanna draw their animal ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Suppose I can draw an animal , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh-oh there goes the ten .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's a cat . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know . They sleep all day , {vocalsound} they're easy to draw {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Do you wanna {gap} anything ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I dunno if the the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think the pen is running out of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well I had the cat as well , but uh I've got a spare one .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "ah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So I'll use the spare one . Um but it's harder to draw {gap} um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And the pen's dying {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "A horse .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Horse .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh . Um I don't {vocalsound} really know how the legs go ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That's very good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "but anyway I will do that . Um , and the main reason is they're pretty . I think they're very pretty and they go well with the environment , and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they're just very sort of sturdy and nice animals . And I like the way um they feel , sort of under under the hand , I think that's pretty much it . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap} Yeah . This cord's {disfmarker} {gap} Uh . Right . Actually I haven't thought of anything yet {vocalsound} . Uh {disfmarker} It's a pig .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} So I'm thinking we should design a remote control that's water resistant , strong and furry . What do you think , yeah ? This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And furry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah , well like a cat , you know , soft yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Textile {disfmarker} tactile , {vocalsound} tactile remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Although {disfmarker} uh I'll just put there . Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're dragging a {disfmarker} you have a tail {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} Oh my gosh , this is disastrous . Sorry about that . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So moving on . Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro . So I'm guessing that we're not actually in Scotland , we're in some European country {vocalsound} . Um , and we will hope to sell this internationally .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Sorry can you just say that {disfmarker} what's the {disfmarker} what are our price goals again ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um selling price is twenty five Euro . Profit aim fifty million Euro .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "How many should we sell then ? {vocalsound} Um , a lot ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Anyone a mathematician ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "two two two million , {gap} two mi no , more f four million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Two million .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Four million . And it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "well it's the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty , that'll do four million .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh , yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It is a lot . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So f that's a fifty percent um uh . Um , I don't know what these mean because I didn't actually make the slide-show . Experience with remote control . So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what um we would like to see in a convenient , practical , nice remote control . Um so do we have any initial ideas for uh how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um , I think one thing is that it should be easy to find", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I was thinking that too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "bec yeah {vocalsound} bec", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think we should design something that has like a {disfmarker} so you can {disfmarker} like somehow like you {disfmarker} I mean you always know where your T_V_ is , so just have a call button ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I've always wanted that ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "so like {vocalsound} you can push a button on your T_V_ {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean you have it for the portable phone , so why not {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah yeah , so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . And even I think a little light . Um or even a {disfmarker} maybe a vib a vibrating thing . I dunno but someth because it's usually under the sofa .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "In which case you're going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which isn't any sound {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I don't know if it's expensive maybe to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I don't {disfmarker} yeah I mean it {disfmarker} but like I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Maybe call is enough . But yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just I mean like your phone even just has so {disfmarker} like it can vibrate , it can light up and make noise and I dunno {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What if it had something like um just like a magnet on the back of it and you could {disfmarker} I mean j just to have some place to put it besides like a base . You know like a portable phone has a base ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , or if it had a {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like just to have a home for it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} 'Cause people just stick it on top of their T_V_ , but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the T_V_ , so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well that's why it's always in the couch .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , in in the couch {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I dunno , it seems like though that that would be hard , 'cause you not you're not gonna be lazy anyway and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Maybe we should design couches that have the remote control in the side arm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah so we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the project is now couches and remote controls .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing , a pretty object attached to the wall . But that would really make it more expensive .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's only a plastic thing , r really , the thing on the wall .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Something like that .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose , or does that not factor in ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the other thing is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Bigger .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not {disfmarker} well it needs to be sort of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Like Hand hand held size , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hand-sized .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I don't think you need a {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not not huge , but {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But definitely not {disfmarker} well I don't know .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It can't be that hard to put some kind of a noise on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No , it can't be , uh-uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No it really wouldn't be .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Or like or like a light thing . You know . I dunno {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Like spaceship .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": ". Yeah {vocalsound} . Or make it mobile so it runs around and comes come find you yeah {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "That would be really {disfmarker} I'm sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Little homing device . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} . Uh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So what do we think this remote control should {disfmarker} Five minutes .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh dear .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Till the meeting {disfmarker} oh right . This is what we have left . Um , oh we just {gap}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I also think though that it shouldn't have too many buttons ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I agree .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause I hate that when they have too many buttons and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} B_ button and the F_ button , they don't do anything .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I mean I know it has to have enough functions but like , I don't know you , just have like eight thousand buttons and you're like , no , you never use half of them . So .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You {disfmarker} what if um may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen , so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions . Like the way a mobile phone does .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That would be cool .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean it just seems like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you could like um {disfmarker} like if you have I dunno if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels , you can {disfmarker} the way you do it on your radio is that you uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "what do you call it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Select . Uh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "s y yeah but you can programme , so you can programme like your favourite channels , so like if you had a s", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But , would you have the screen on the thing , or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "That's something we could decide . Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I guess they would go together somehow ? I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Because , I don't know if it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it's e expensive , if you have {disfmarker} if you use the telly screen , 'cause the telly's already a screen , then you can pro sort of have a programming function , really easy sort of arrow up and down , on the remote ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and then use the telly as a screen .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I'm thinking kind of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But yeah for sure . Something like not {disfmarker} it's not on the button but it's telling you what to do ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "is that what you mean ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Right . Mm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or like you h you see those you know people {disfmarker} I'm thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those {disfmarker} these things that at their house you know {disfmarker} their their entire house is so electronic , and they have like this one master control that {disfmarker} and it's like a hand held like {disfmarker} turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like {disfmarker} so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen , I don't know if {disfmarker} it must be {disfmarker} it would probably {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "must be ex too expensive though t like I dunno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But like mobile phones have screens and they're cheap .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Yeah that's true .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . I mean , we have to remember our budget is twelve point {disfmarker} twelve fifty for {disfmarker} to actually make the device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um but it's something to think about , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I guess we have to get to that later , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I mean we'll have to see how much that would be .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Or some {disfmarker} it i we can find out probably on the internet {vocalsound} how much it's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um . Yeah , and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "What was the word ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Furry .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Water resistant .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh I was just {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No but it's {disfmarker} I thought , ah , spot on .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Good feel , tact tactile , good tactile feel ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "maybe something didn doesn't make your hands sweat lot .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . Mm , mm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's quite annoying .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Maybe um just like a simple thing to have a clip on it , like so you can clip it to your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like that's another {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , clip . Ooh {vocalsound} . Um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um . We should probably start wrapping up , um we've got some initial ideas that we can all look into . Um , and come up with some new ones for the next meeting , which will be in another thirty minutes . Um . So . Yeah . The Industrial Designer , what does that stand for , I_D_ ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah I think so .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah {vocalsound} um is going to be looking more into the working design . So I guess you'd be looking at lots of the things we discussed about screen and um that sort of thing . The something , what is the U_I_ ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "User .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , what does it stand for again ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "That's me . Uh , User Interface design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "User Interface Designer . So that's gonna be more technical . I guess that maybe the working design has also to do with like the physical feat like just the way it looks and the way it w", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So technical function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The working design is the structure .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What is technical functions exactl I I don't really know what {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um , I guess you'd have to find out {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It says on that email but it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "It was in the email .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It does but it {disfmarker} I just don't really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I wrote down what mine were .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It said um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It said {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} What effect should the thing ha should it have , okay . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And working design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Be a medium between you and the telly I think ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "that's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And how it works , okay . Right . I'm I'm on task .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And the M_E_ , what does that stand for {vocalsound} ? M", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Marketing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Marketing , right . Um {vocalsound} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Marketing . Oh it's written here , but um .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So we'll be working on the user requirements , um {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "So I guess that wraps it up . I'll see you all in thirty minutes . I just did .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I think I 'm zero .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wow ! Unprecedented .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hello , hello , hello , hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Wh - what causes the crash ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Did you fix something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Five , five .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Hello , hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe it 's the turning {disfmarker} turning off and turning on of the mike , right ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh , you think that 's you ? Oh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Aaa - aaa - aaa .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , mine 's working .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . That 's me .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . OK . So , um I guess we are {pause} um {pause} gonna do the digits at the end . Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Channel {disfmarker} channel three , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Channel two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm , channel five ? Doesn't work ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's the mike number there , uh {pause} Uh , mike number five , and {pause} channel {disfmarker} channel four .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is it written on her sheet , I believe .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No ? Ah ,", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mike four .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Watch this .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "era el cuatro .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yep , that 's me .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "But , channel", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "This is you .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . I saw that . Ah {disfmarker} yeah , it 's OK .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah . And I 'm channel uh two I think ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ooo .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "or channel {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think I 'm channel two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , I 'm channel {disfmarker} must be channel one . Channel one ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Channel {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I decided to talk about that .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes , OK . OK . So uh {pause} I also copied uh the results that we all got in the mail I think from uh {disfmarker} {pause} from OGI and we 'll go {disfmarker} go through them also . So where are we on {disfmarker} {pause} on uh {vocalsound} {pause} our runs ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh so . {pause} uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} So {pause} As I was already said , we {disfmarker} we mainly focused on uh four kind of features .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Excuse me .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The PLP , the PLP with JRASTA , the MSG , and the MFCC from the baseline Aurora .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , and we focused for the {disfmarker} the test part on the English and the Italian . Um . We 've trained uh several neural networks on {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on the TI - digits English {pause} and on the Italian data and also on the broad uh {pause} English uh French and uh Spanish databases . Mmm , so there 's our result tables here , for the tandem approach , and um , actually what we {disfmarker} we @ @ observed is that if the network is trained on the task data it works pretty well .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . Our {disfmarker} our uh {disfmarker} {pause} There 's a {disfmarker} {pause} We 're pausing for a photo {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Chicken on the grill . Try that corner .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "How about over th from the front of the room ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's longer .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "We 're pausing for a photo opportunity here . Uh . {vocalsound} Uh . So .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh wait wait wait wait wait . Wait .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Get out of the {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hold on . Hold on .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Let me give you a black screen .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "He 's facing this way . What ? OK , this {disfmarker} this would be a {pause} good section for our silence detection .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um Oh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Musical chairs everybody !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . So um , {pause} you were saying {pause} about the training data {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , so if the network is trained on the task data um {pause} tandem works pretty well . And uh actually we have uh , results are similar Only on ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Do you mean if it 's trained only on {disfmarker} On data from just that task ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "that language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Just that task . But actually we didn't train network on {pause} uh both types of data I mean {pause} uh {pause} phonetically ba phonetically balanced uh data and task data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We only did either task {disfmarker} task data or {pause} uh broad {pause} data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um {pause} Yeah . So ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So how {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} clearly it 's gonna be good then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So what 's th", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but the question is how much {pause} worse is it {pause} if you have broad data ? I mean , {pause} my assump From what I saw from the earlier results , uh I guess last week , {pause} was that um , {pause} if you {pause} trained on one language and tested on another , say , that {pause} the results were {disfmarker} were relatively poor .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but the question is if you train on one language {pause} but you have a broad coverage {pause} and then test in another , {pause} does that {disfmarker} {pause} is that improve things {pause} i c in comparison ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If we use the same language ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , no , no . Different lang So {pause} um {pause} If you train on TI - digits {pause} and test on Italian digits , {pause} you do poorly , {pause} let 's say .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't have the numbers in front of me ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah but I did not uh do that .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so I 'm just imagining . E So , you didn't train on {pause} TIMIT and test on {disfmarker} {pause} on Italian digits , say ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} No , we did four {disfmarker} four kind of {disfmarker} of testing , actually . The first testing is {pause} with task data {disfmarker} So , with nets trained on task data . So for Italian on the Italian speech @ @ . The second test is trained on a single language um with broad database , but the same language as the t task data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But for Italian we choose Spanish which {pause} we assume is close to Italian . The third test is by using , um the three language database", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "W which in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and the fourth is", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It has three languages . That 's including the w the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "This includes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "the one that it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "In", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {pause} not digits . I mean it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "The three languages {pause} is not digits ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "it 's the broad {pause} data . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah And the fourth test is uh {pause} excluding from these three languages the language {pause} that is {pause} the task language .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK , yeah , so , that is what I wanted to know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I just wasn't saying it very well , I guess .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah . So um {pause} for uh TI - digits for ins example {pause} uh when we go from TI - digits training to {pause} TIMIT training {pause} uh we lose {pause} uh around ten percent , uh . The error rate increase u of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of ten percent , relative .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Relative . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So this is not so bad . And then when we jump to the multilingual data it 's uh it become worse and , well Around uh , let 's say , {pause} twenty perc twenty percent further .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ab - about how much ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Twenty percent further ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Twenty to {disfmarker} to thirty percent further . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And so , remind me , the multilingual stuff is just the broad data . Right ? It 's not the digits .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So it 's the combination of {pause} two things there . It 's {pause} removing the {pause} task specific {pause} training and {pause} it 's adding other languages .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But the first step is al already removing the task s specific from {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Already , right right right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So they were sort of building {pause} here ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And we lose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh {pause} So , basically when it 's trained on the {disfmarker} the multilingual broad data {pause} um or number {disfmarker} so , the {disfmarker} the {pause} ratio of our error rates uh with the {pause} baseline error rate is around {pause} uh one point one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} And it 's something like one point three of {disfmarker} of the {pause} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I i if you compare everything to the first case at the baseline , you get something like one point one for the {disfmarker} for the using the same language but a different task , and something like one point three {pause} for three {disfmarker} three languages {pause} broad stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No no no . Uh same language we are at uh {disfmarker} for at English at O point eight . So it improves , {pause} compared to the baseline . But {disfmarker} So . Le - let me .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Tas - task data", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I meant something different by baseline", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "we are u Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So let me {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} Um , {pause} so , {pause} um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , fine . Let 's {disfmarker} let 's use the conventional meaning of baseline .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} By baseline here I meant {pause} uh using the task specific data .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , the f Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {pause} uh , because that 's what you were just doing with this ten percent .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I was just {disfmarker} I just trying to understand that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So if we call {pause} a factor of w just one , just normalized to one , the word error rate {pause} that you have {pause} for using TI - digits as {disfmarker} as {pause} training and TI - digits as test ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh different words , I 'm sure ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {pause} but uh , uh the same {pause} task and so on .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "If we call that \" one \" , {pause} then what you 're saying is {pause} that the word error rate {pause} for the same language but using {pause} uh different training data than you 're testing on , say TIMIT and so forth , {pause} it 's one point one .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , it 's around one point one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . And if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you {pause} do {pause} go to {pause} three languages including the English , {pause} it 's something like one point three . That 's what you were just saying , I think .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye Uh , more actually .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "One point four ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If I {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , it 's an additional thirty percent .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What would you say ? Around one point four", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And if you exclude {pause} English , {pause} from this combination , what 's that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If we exclude English , {pause} um {pause} there is {pause} not much difference with the {pause} data with English .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Aha !", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "That 's interesting . {pause} That 's interesting . Do you see ? Because {disfmarker} Uh ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} No , that {disfmarker} that 's important . So what {disfmarker} what it 's saying here is just that \" yes , there is a reduction {pause} in performance , {pause} when you don't {pause} um {pause} have the s {pause} when you don't have {pause} um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Task data .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wait a minute , th th the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , actually {pause} it 's interesting . So it 's {disfmarker} So when you go to a different task , there 's actually not so {pause} different . It 's when you went to these {disfmarker} So what 's the difference between two and three ? Between the one point one case and the one point four case ? I 'm confused .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's multilingual .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . The only difference it 's {disfmarker} is that it 's multilingual {disfmarker} Um", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Cuz in both {disfmarker} in both {disfmarker} both of those cases , you don't have the same task .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah sure .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So is {disfmarker} is the training data for the {disfmarker} for this one point four case {disfmarker} does it include the training data for the one point one case ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , a fraction of it .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "A part of it , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "How m how much bigger is it ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um {pause} It 's two times ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , um .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "actually ? Yeah . Um . The English data {disfmarker} {pause} No , the multilingual databases are two times the {pause} broad English {pause} data . We just wanted to keep this , w well , not too huge . So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So it 's two times , but it includes the {disfmarker} but it includes the broad English data .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think so . Do you {disfmarker} Uh , Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the broad English data is what you got this one point one {pause} with . So that 's TIMIT basically right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So it 's band - limited TIMIT . This is all eight kilohertz sampling .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Downs Right .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you have band - limited TIMIT , {pause} gave you uh almost as good as a result as using TI - digits {pause} on a TI - digits test . OK ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um {pause} and {pause} um But , {pause} when you add in more training data but keep the neural net the same size , {pause} it {pause} um performs worse on the TI - digits . OK , now all of this is {disfmarker} {pause} This is noisy {pause} TI - digits , I assume ? Both training and test ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Um OK . Well . {pause} We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we may just need to uh {disfmarker} So I mean it 's interesting that h going to a different {disfmarker} different task didn't seem to hurt us that much , and going to a different language um It doesn't seem to matter {disfmarker} The difference between three and four is not particularly great , so that means that {pause} whether you have the language in or not is not such a big deal .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It sounds like um {pause} uh {pause} we may need to have more {pause} of uh things that are similar to a target language or {disfmarker} I mean . {pause} You have the same number of parameters in the neural net , you haven't increased the size of the neural net , and maybe there 's just {disfmarker} {pause} just not enough {pause} complexity to it to represent {pause} the variab increased variability in the {disfmarker} in the training set . That {disfmarker} that could be . Um {pause} So , what about {disfmarker} So these are results with {pause} uh th {pause} that you 're describing now , that {pause} they are pretty similar for the different features or {disfmarker} {pause} or uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , let me check . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . This was for the PLP ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um . The {disfmarker} Yeah . For the PLP with JRASTA the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} This is quite the same {pause} tendency , {pause} with a slight increase of the error rate , {pause} uh if we go to {disfmarker} to TIMIT . And then it 's {disfmarker} it gets worse with the multilingual . Um . Yeah . There {disfmarker} there is a difference actually with {disfmarker} b between PLP and JRASTA is that {pause} JRASTA {pause} seems to {pause} perform better with the highly mismatched {pause} condition {pause} but slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse {pause} for the well matched condition . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I have a suggestion , actually , even though it 'll delay us slightly , would {disfmarker} would you mind {pause} running into the other room and making {pause} copies of this ? Cuz we 're all sort of {disfmarker} If we c if we could look at it , while we 're talking , I think it 'd be", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} {pause} Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll sing a song or dance or something while you {vocalsound} do it , too .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Go ahead . Ah , while you 're gone I 'll ask s some of my questions .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , this way and just slightly to the left , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The um {disfmarker} What was {disfmarker} Was this number {pause} forty or {disfmarker} It was roughly the same as this one , {pause} he said ? When you had the two language versus the three language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . That 's what he was saying .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's where he removed English ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It sometimes , actually , depends on what features you 're using .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} but i it sounds like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} He {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I mean . That 's interesting because {pause} it {disfmarker} it seems like what it 's saying is not so much that you got hurt {pause} uh because {pause} you {pause} uh didn't have so much representation of English , because in the other case you don't get hurt any more , at least when {pause} it seemed like uh it {disfmarker} it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but you have the same number of parameters representing it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . I wonder {disfmarker} were um all three of these nets {pause} using the same output ? This multi - language {pause} uh labelling ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He was using uh sixty - four phonemes from {pause} SAMPA .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So this would {disfmarker} {pause} From this you would say , \" well , it doesn't really matter if we put Finnish {pause} into {pause} the training of the neural net , {pause} if there 's {pause} gonna be , {pause} you know , Finnish in the test data . \" Right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} it sounds {disfmarker} {pause} I mean , we have to be careful , cuz we haven't gotten a good result yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And comparing different bad results can be {pause} tricky .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {pause} I think it does suggest that it 's not so much uh {pause} uh cross {pause} language as cross type of speech .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But we did {disfmarker} Oh yeah , the other thing I was asking him , though , is that I think that in the case {disfmarker} Yeah , you {disfmarker} you do have to be careful because of com compounded results . I think we got some earlier results {pause} in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you didn't have {pause} three , but you just had one {pause} language . So you trained on {pause} one type of digits and tested on another . Didn - Wasn't there something of that ? Where you , {pause} say , trained on Spanish and tested on {disfmarker} on TI - digits , or the other way around ? Something like that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I thought there was something like that , {pause} that he showed me {pause} last week . We 'll have to wait till we get {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would be interesting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , This may have been what I was asking before , Stephane , but {disfmarker} {pause} but , um , wasn't there something that you did , {pause} where you trained {pause} on one language and tested on another ? I mean no {disfmarker} no mixture but just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I 'll get it for you .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh , no , no .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We 've never just trained on one lang", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Training on a single language , you mean , and testing on the other one ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Not yet .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So the only {pause} task that 's similar to this is the training on two languages , and {comment} that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But we 've done a bunch of things where we just trained on one language . Right ? I mean , you haven't {disfmarker} you haven't done all your tests on multiple languages .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , No . Either thi this is test with {pause} uh the same language {pause} but from the broad data , or it 's test with {pause} uh different languages also from the broad data , excluding the {disfmarker} So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's three or {disfmarker} three and four .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "The early experiment that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Did you do different languages from digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . No . You mean {pause} training digits {pause} on one language and using the net {pause} to recognize on the other ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Digits on another language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "See , I thought you showed me something like that last week . You had a {disfmarker} you had a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , {pause} No , I don't think so .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um What {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "These numbers are uh {pause} ratio to baseline ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , I mean wha what 's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker} this chart {disfmarker} this table that we 're looking at {pause} is um , show is all testing for TI - digits , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Bigger is worse .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you have uh basically two {pause} uh parts .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This is error rate , I think .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Ratio .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No . {pause} No .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "The upper part is for TI - digits", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "and it 's divided in three {pause} rows {pause} of four {disfmarker} four rows each .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And the first four rows is well - matched , then the s the second group of four rows is mismatched , and {pause} finally highly mismatched . And then the lower part is for Italian and it 's the same {disfmarker} {pause} the same thing .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , so the upper part is training {pause} TI - digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the HTK results , I mean . So it 's {pause} HTK training testings {pause} with different kind of features", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and what appears in the {pause} uh left column is {pause} the networks that are used for doing this .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Uh Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , What was is that i What was it that you had {pause} done {pause} last week when you showed {disfmarker} Do you remember ? Wh - when you showed me {pause} the {disfmarker} your table last week ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It - It was part of these results . Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So where is the baseline {pause} for the TI - digits {pause} located in here ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You mean the HTK Aurora baseline ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's uh the one hundred number . It 's , well , all these numbers are the ratio {pause} with respect to the baseline .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah ! Ah , OK , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So this is word {disfmarker} word error rate , so a high number is bad .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is {pause} a word error rate ratio .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "OK , I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So , seventy point two means that {pause} we reduced the error rate uh by thirty {disfmarker} thirty percent .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , OK , gotcha .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , {vocalsound} so if we take", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh um let 's see PLP {pause} uh with on - line {pause} normalization and {pause} delta - del so that 's this thing you have circled here {pause} in the second column ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "um {pause} and \" multi - English \" refers to what ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "To TIMIT . Mmm . Then you have {pause} uh MF , {pause} MS and ME which are for French , Spanish and English . And , yeah . Actually I {disfmarker} {pause} I uh forgot to say that {pause} the multilingual net are trained {pause} on {pause} uh {pause} features without the s derivatives uh but with {pause} increased frame numbers . Mmm . And we can {disfmarker} we can see on the first line of the table that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it 's slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse when we don't use delta but it 's not {disfmarker} {pause} not that much .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So w w So , I 'm sorry . I missed that . What 's MF , MS and ME ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Multi - French , Multi - Spanish", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Multi - French , Multi - Spanish , and Multi - English .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh OK . So , it 's {pause} uh {pause} broader vocabulary . Then {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK so I think what I 'm {disfmarker} what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was {disfmarker} was {pause} there were some numbers I saw , I think , that included these multiple languages and it {disfmarker} and I was seeing {pause} that it got worse . I {disfmarker} I think that was all it was . You had some very limited results that {disfmarker} at that point", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "which showed {pause} having in these {disfmarker} these other languages . In fact it might have been just this last category , {pause} having two languages broad that were {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where English was removed . So that was cross language and the {disfmarker} and the result was quite poor . What I {disfmarker} {pause} we hadn't seen yet was that if you added in the English , it 's still poor .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um now , what 's the noise condition {pause} um {pause} of the training data {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Still poor .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , I think this is what you were explaining . The noise condition is the same {disfmarker} It 's the same uh Aurora noises uh , in all these cases {pause} for the training .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's not a {pause} statistical {disfmarker} sta a strong st {pause} statistically different {pause} noise characteristic between {pause} uh the training and test", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No these are the s s s same noises ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and yet we 're seeing some kind of effect {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah . At least {disfmarker} at least for the first {disfmarker} {pause} for the well - matched ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well matched condition .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's some kind of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an effect from having these {disfmarker} uh this broader coverage um Now I guess what we should try doing with this is try {pause} testing these on u this same sort of thing on {disfmarker} you probably must have this {pause} lined up to do . To try the same t {pause} with the exact same training , do testing on {pause} the other languages .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "On {disfmarker} on um {disfmarker} So . Um , oh I well , wait a minute . You have this here , for the Italian . That 's right . OK , so , {pause} So .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so for the Italian the results are {vocalsound} uh {pause} stranger um {pause} Mmm . So what appears is that perhaps Spanish is {pause} not very close to Italian because uh , well , {pause} when using the {disfmarker} the network trained only on Spanish it 's {disfmarker} {pause} the error rate is {pause} almost uh twice {pause} the baseline error rate .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , let 's see . Is there any difference in {disfmarker} So it 's in {pause} the uh {disfmarker} So you 're saying that {pause} when you train on English {pause} and {pause} uh {pause} and {disfmarker} and test on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , you don't have training on English testing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} another difference , is that the noise {disfmarker} the noises are different .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "In {disfmarker} in what ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , For {disfmarker} for the Italian part I mean the {pause} uh {pause} the um {pause} networks are trained with noise from {pause} Aurora {disfmarker} TI - digits ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Aurora - two .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the noise is different in th", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And perhaps the noise are {pause} quite different from the noises {pause} in the speech that Italian .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Do we have any um {pause} test sets {pause} uh in {pause} any other language that um have the same noise as in {pause} the Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm , no .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Can I ask something real quick ? In {disfmarker} in the upper part {disfmarker} {pause} in the English {pause} stuff , {pause} it looks like the very best number is sixty point nine ? and that 's in the uh {disfmarker} {pause} the third {pause} section in the upper part under PLP JRASTA , sort of the middle column ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I is that {pause} a noisy condition ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So that 's matched training ? Is that what that is ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} no , the third part , so it 's uh {pause} highly mismatched . So . Training and {pause} test noise are different .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} why do you get your best number in {disfmarker} Wouldn't you get your best number in the clean case ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's relative to the um {pause} baseline mismatching", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK so these are not {disfmarker} OK , alright , I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . And then {disfmarker} so , in the {disfmarker} in the um {disfmarker} {pause} in the {pause} non - mismatched clean case , {pause} your best one was under MFCC ? That sixty - one point four ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . {pause} But it 's not a clean case . It 's {pause} a noisy case but {pause} uh training and test noises are the same .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh ! So this upper third ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh that 's still noisy ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's always noisy basically ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and , {pause} well , the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ? Um {pause} So uh , I think this will take some {pause} looking at , thinking about . But , {pause} what is uh {disfmarker} what is currently running , that 's {disfmarker} uh , i that {disfmarker} just filling in the holes here or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} ? {comment} {pause} pretty much ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no we don't plan to fill the holes", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but {pause} actually there is something important , is that {pause} um we made a lot of assumption concerning the on - line normalization and we just noticed {pause} uh recently that {pause} uh the {pause} approach that we were using {pause} was not {pause} uh {pause} leading to very good results {pause} when we {pause} used the straight features to HTK . Um {pause} {pause} Mmm . So basically d {pause} if you look at the {disfmarker} at the left of the table , {pause} the first uh row , {pause} with eighty - six , one hundred , and forty - three and seventy - five , these are the results we obtained for Italian {pause} uh with {pause} straight {pause} mmm , PLP features {pause} using on - line normalization .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . And the , mmm {disfmarker} what 's {pause} in the table , just {pause} at the left of the PLP twelve {pause} on - line normalization column , so , the numbers seventy - nine , fifty - four and {pause} uh forty - two {pause} are the results obtained by uh Pratibha with {pause} uh his on - line normalization {disfmarker} uh her on - line normalization approach .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Where is that ? seventy - nine , fifty", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , it 's just sort of sitting right on the uh {disfmarker} the column line .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Fifty - one ? This {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Oh I see , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} uh Yeah . So these are the results of {pause} OGI with {pause} on - line normalization and straight features to HTK . And the previous result , eighty - six and so on , {pause} are with our {pause} features straight to HTK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So {pause} what we see that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} there is that um {pause} uh the way we were doing this was not correct , but {pause} still {pause} the networks {pause} are very good . When we use the networks {pause} our number are better that {pause} uh Pratibha results .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We improve .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So , do you know what was wrong with the on - line normalization , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . There were diff there were different things and {pause} basically , {pause} the first thing is the mmm , {pause} alpha uh {pause} value . So , the recursion {pause} uh {pause} part . um , {pause} I used point five percent , {pause} which was the default value in the {disfmarker} {pause} in the programs here . And Pratibha used five percent .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So it adapts more {pause} quickly", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um , but , yeah . I assume that this was not important because {pause} uh previous results from {disfmarker} from Dan and {disfmarker} show that basically {pause} the {pause} both {disfmarker} both values g give the same {disfmarker} same {pause} uh results . It was true on uh {pause} TI - digits but it 's not true on Italian .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , second thing is the initialization of the {pause} stuff . Actually , {pause} uh what we were doing is to start the recursion from the beginning of the {pause} utterance . And using initial values that are the global mean and variances {pause} measured across the whole database .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And Pratibha did something different is that he {disfmarker} uh she initialed the um values of the mean and variance {pause} by computing {pause} this on the {pause} twenty - five first frames of each utterance . Mmm . There were other minor differences , the fact that {pause} she used fifteen dissities instead s instead of thirteen , and that she used C - zero instead of log energy . Uh , but the main differences concerns the recursion . So . {pause} Uh , I changed the code uh and now we have a baseline that 's similar to the OGI baseline .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's slightly {pause} uh different because {pause} I don't exactly initialize the same way she does . Actually I start , {pause} mmm , I don't wait to a fifteen {disfmarker} twenty - five {disfmarker} twenty - five frames {pause} before computing a mean and the variance {pause} to e to {disfmarker} to start the recursion .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I use the on - line scheme and only start the re recursion after the twenty - five {disfmarker} {pause} twenty - fifth frame . But , well it 's similar . So {pause} uh I retrained {pause} the networks with {pause} these {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the networks are retaining with these new {pause} features .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So basically what I expect is that {pause} these numbers will a little bit go down but {pause} perhaps not {disfmarker} not so much", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because {pause} I think the neural networks learn perhaps {pause} to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "even if the features are not {pause} normalized . It {disfmarker} it will learn how to normalize and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , but I think that {pause} given the pressure of time we probably want to draw {disfmarker} because of that {pause} especially , we wanna draw some conclusions from this , do some reductions {pause} in what we 're looking at ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and make some strong decisions for what we 're gonna do testing on before next week . So do you {disfmarker} are you {disfmarker} w did you have something going on , on the side , with uh multi - band {pause} or {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on this ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} I", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No , I {disfmarker} we plan to start this uh so , act actually we have discussed uh {pause} @ @ um , these {disfmarker} what we could do {pause} more as a {disfmarker} as a research and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we were thinking perhaps that {pause} uh {pause} the way we use the tandem is not {disfmarker} Uh , well , there is basically perhaps a flaw in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the stuff because {pause} we {pause} trained the networks {disfmarker} If we trained the networks on the {disfmarker} on {pause} a language and a t or a specific {pause} task ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um , what we ask is {disfmarker} to the network {disfmarker} is to put the bound the decision boundaries somewhere in the space .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And uh {pause} mmm and ask the network to put one , {pause} at one side of the {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a particular phoneme at one side of the boundary {disfmarker} decision boundary and one for another phoneme at the other side . And {pause} so there is kind of reduction of the information there that 's not correct because if we change task {pause} and if the phonemes are not in the same context in the new task , {pause} obviously the {pause} decision boundaries are not {disfmarker} {pause} should not be at the same {pause} place .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I di", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But the way the feature gives {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the way the network gives the features is that it reduce completely the {disfmarker} {pause} it removes completely the information {disfmarker} {pause} a lot of information from the {disfmarker} the features {pause} by uh {pause} uh {pause} placing the decision boundaries at {pause} optimal places for {pause} one kind of {pause} data but {pause} this is not the case for another kind of data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's a trade - off ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ? Any - anyway go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . So uh what we were thinking about is perhaps {pause} um one way {pause} to solve this problem is increase the number of {pause} outputs of the neural networks . Doing something like , um {pause} um phonemes within context and , well , basically context dependent phonemes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Maybe . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think {pause} you could make {pause} the same argument , it 'd be just as legitimate , {pause} for hybrid systems {pause} as well . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah but , we know that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And in fact , {pause} th things get better with context dependent {pause} versions . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye - yeah but here it 's something different . We want to have features", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh well , {pause} um .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it 's still true {pause} that what you 're doing {pause} is you 're ignoring {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're coming up with something to represent , {pause} whether it 's a distribution , {pause} probability distribution or features , you 're coming up with a set of variables {pause} that are representing {pause} uh , {pause} things that vary w over context .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , and you 're {pause} putting it all together , ignoring the differences in context . That {disfmarker} that 's true {pause} for the hybrid system , it 's true for a tandem system . So , for that reason , when you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a hybrid system , {pause} when you incorporate context one way or another , {pause} you do get better scores .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ? But I {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a big deal {pause} to get that . I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of {disfmarker} And once you {disfmarker} the other thing is that once you represent {disfmarker} start representing more and more context {pause} it is {pause} uh {pause} much more {pause} um specific {pause} to a particular task in language . So um Uh , the {disfmarker} {pause} the acoustics associated with {pause} uh a particular context , for instance you may have some kinds of contexts that will never occur {pause} in one language and will occur frequently in the other , so the qu the issue of getting enough training {pause} for a particular kind of context becomes harder . We already actually don't have a huge amount of training data um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} mmm , I mean , {pause} the {disfmarker} the way we {disfmarker} we do it now is that we have a neural network and {pause} basically {pause} the net network is trained almost to give binary decisions .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And {pause} uh {disfmarker} binary decisions about phonemes . Nnn {disfmarker} Uh It 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Almost . But I mean it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does give a distribution .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {pause} it is true that if there 's two phones that are very similar , {pause} that {pause} uh {pause} the {disfmarker} {pause} i it may prefer one but it will {pause} give a reasonably high value to the other , too .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , sure but uh {pause} So basically it 's almost binary decisions and {pause} um the idea of using more {pause} classes is {pause} to {pause} get something that 's {pause} less binary decisions .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh no , but it would still be even more of a binary decision . It {disfmarker} it 'd be even more of one . Because then you would say {pause} that in {disfmarker} that this phone in this context is a one , {pause} but the same phone in a slightly different context is a zero .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "That would be even {disfmarker} even more distinct of a binary decision . I actually would have thought you 'd wanna go the other way and have fewer classes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , I mean for instance , the {disfmarker} the thing I was arguing for before , but again which I don't think we have time to try , {pause} is something in which you would modify the code so you could train to have several outputs on and use articulatory features", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "cuz then that would {disfmarker} that would go {disfmarker} {pause} that would be much broader and cover many different situations . But if you go to very very fine categories , it 's very {pause} binary .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah , perhaps you 're right , but you have more classes so {pause} you {disfmarker} you have more information in your features . So , {vocalsound} Um {pause} You have more information in the {pause} uh", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . True .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "posteriors vector um which means that {disfmarker} But still the information is relevant", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it 's information that helps to discriminate ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it 's possible to be able to discriminate {pause} among the phonemes in context .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's an interesting thought .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean we {disfmarker} we could disagree about it at length", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but the {disfmarker} the real thing is if you 're interested in it you 'll probably try it", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we 'll see . But {disfmarker} but what I 'm more concerned with now , as an operational level , is {pause} uh , you know ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "what do we do in four or five days ? Uh , and {disfmarker} {pause} so we have {pause} to be concerned {pause} with Are we gonna look at any combinations of things , you know once the nets get retrained so you have this problem out of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , are we going to look at {pause} multi - band ? Are we gonna look at combinations of things ? Uh , what questions are we gonna ask , uh now that , I mean , {pause} we should probably turn shortly to this O G I note . Um , how are we going to {pause} combine {pause} with what they 've been focusing on ? Uh , {pause} Uh we haven't been doing any of the L D A RASTA sort of thing .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And they , although they don't talk about it in this note , um , {pause} there 's um , {pause} the issue of the {pause} um Mu law {pause} business {pause} uh {pause} versus the logarithm , um , {pause} so .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So what i what is going on right now ? What 's right {disfmarker} you 've got {pause} nets retraining , Are there {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any H T K {pause} trainings {disfmarker} testings going on ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "N", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm trying the HTK with eh , {pause} PLP twelve on - line delta - delta and MSG filter {pause} together .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "The combination , I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The combination , yeah . But I haven't result {vocalsound} at this moment .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "MSG and {disfmarker} and PLP .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . ", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "And is this with the revised {pause} on - line normalization ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye - Uh , with the old {pause} older ,", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Old one . So it 's using all the nets for that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "but again we have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} We have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} maybe it 's not making too much difference ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {pause} We can know soon .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh so there is this combination , yeah . Working on combination obviously .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Um , I will start work on multi - band . And {pause} we {pause} plan to work also on the idea of using both {pause} features {pause} and net outputs .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Um . And {pause} we think that {pause} with this approach perhaps {pause} we could reduce the number of outputs of the neural network . Um , So , get simpler networks , because we still have the features . So we have um {pause} come up with um {pause} different kind of {pause} broad phonetic categories . And we have {disfmarker} Basically we have three {pause} types of broad phonetic classes . Well , something using place of articulation which {disfmarker} which leads to {pause} nine , I think , {pause} broad classes . Uh , another which is based on manner , which is {disfmarker} is also something like nine classes . And then , {pause} something that combine both , and we have {pause} twenty f {pause} twenty - five ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Twenty - seven .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Twenty - seven broad classes . So like , uh , oh , I don't know , like back vowels , front vowels .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So what you do {disfmarker} um I just wanna understand", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um For the moments we do not {disfmarker} don't have nets ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so {pause} You have two net or three nets ? Was this ? How many {disfmarker} how many nets do you have ? No nets .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean , {pause} It 's just {disfmarker} Were we just changing {pause} the labels to retrain nets {pause} with fewer out outputs .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Begin to work in this . We are @ @ .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Right . But {disfmarker} but I didn't understand {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} the software currently just has {disfmarker} uh a {disfmarker} allows for I think , the one {disfmarker} one hot output . So you 're having multiple nets and combining them , or {disfmarker} ? Uh , how are you {disfmarker} how are you coming up with {disfmarker} If you say {pause} uh {pause} If you have a place {pause} characteristic and a manner characteristic , how do you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It - It 's the single net ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I think they have one output .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's just one net .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's one net with {pause} um {pause} twenty - seven outputs", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "if we have twenty - seven classes ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I see . I see , OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's basically a standard net with fewer {pause} classes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So you 're sort of going the other way of what you were saying a bit ago instead of {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah . B b including the features , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But including the features .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I don't think this {pause} will work {pause} alone . I think it will get worse because Well , I believe the effect that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of too reducing too much the information is {pause} basically {disfmarker} basically what happens", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But you think if you include that {pause} plus the other features ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah , because {pause} there is perhaps one important thing that the net {pause} brings , and OGI show showed that , is {pause} the distinction between {pause} sp speech and silence Because these nets are trained on well - controlled condition . I mean the labels are obtained on clean speech , and we add noise after . So this is one thing And But perhaps , something intermediary using also {pause} some broad classes could {disfmarker} could bring so much more information . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so again then we have these broad classes and {disfmarker} well , somewhat broad . I mean , it 's twenty - seven instead of sixty - four , {pause} basically . And you have the original features .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Which are PLP , or something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And then uh , just to remind me , all of that goes {pause} into {disfmarker} uh , that all of that is transformed by uh , uh , K - KL or something , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . There will probably be ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mu .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "yeah , one single KL to transform everything", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or {vocalsound} {pause} uh ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No transform the PLP", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "per", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and only transform the other I 'm not sure .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Well no ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "This is {pause} still something {pause} that", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah , we {pause} don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's a question of whether you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two e @ @ it 's one .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . Whether you would transform together or just one . Yeah . Might wanna try it both ways . But that 's interesting . So that 's something that you 're {disfmarker} you haven't trained yet but are preparing to train , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um {pause} {pause} Yeah , so I think Hynek will be here Monday .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": " Monday or Tuesday . So", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I think , you know , we need to {pause} choose the {disfmarker} choose the experiments carefully , so we can get uh key {disfmarker} {pause} key questions answered {pause} uh before then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and {pause} leave other ones aside even if it {pause} leaves incomplete {pause} tables {vocalsound} {pause} someplace , uh {pause} uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really time to {disfmarker} {pause} time to choose .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , let me pass this out , {pause} by the way . Um These are {disfmarker} Did {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} {pause} did I interrupt you ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have one .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Were there other things that you wanted to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no . I don't think so .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , thanks .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Ah ! {pause} OK . {pause} OK , we have {pause} lots of them .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We have one . ", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "OK , so {vocalsound} um , Something I asked {disfmarker} So they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing {pause} the {disfmarker} the VAD I guess they mean voice activity detection So again , it 's the silence {disfmarker} So they 've just trained up a net {pause} which has two outputs , I believe . Um {vocalsound} I asked uh {pause} Hynek whether {disfmarker} I haven't talked to Sunil {disfmarker} I asked Hynek whether {pause} they compared that to {pause} just taking the nets we already had {pause} and summing up the probabilities .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} To get the speech {disfmarker} voice activity detection , or else just using the silence , {pause} if there 's only one {pause} silence output . Um {pause} And , he didn't think they had , um . But on the other hand , maybe they can get by with a smaller net and {pause} maybe {pause} sometimes you don't run the other , maybe there 's a computational advantage to having a separate net , anyway .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So um Their uh {disfmarker} {pause} the results look pretty good . Um , {pause} I mean , not uniformly .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , there 's a {disfmarker} an example or two {pause} that you can find , where it made it slightly worse , but {pause} uh in {disfmarker} in all but a couple {pause} examples .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But they have a question of the result . Um how are trained the {disfmarker} the LDA filter ? How obtained the LDA filter ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I I 'm sorry . I don't understand your question .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes , um the LDA filter {pause} needs some {pause} training set {pause} to obtain the filter . Maybe I don't know exactly how {pause} they are obtained .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It 's on {pause} training .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Training , with the training test of each {disfmarker} You understand me ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh for example , {pause} LDA filter {pause} need a set of {disfmarker} {pause} a set of training {pause} to obtain the filter .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And maybe {pause} for the Italian , for the TD {pause} TE on for Finnish , these filter are {disfmarker} are obtained with their own training set .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes , I don't know . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} so that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very good question , then {disfmarker} now that it {disfmarker} {pause} I understand it . It 's \" yeah , where does the LDA come from ? \" In the {disfmarker} In {pause} earlier experiments , they had taken LDA {pause} from a completely different database , right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , because maybe it the same situation that the neural network training with their own", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "set .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So that 's a good question . Where does it come from ? Yeah , I don't know . Um , {pause} but uh to tell you the {pause} truth , I wasn't actually looking at the LDA so much when I {disfmarker} I was looking at it I was {pause} mostly thinking about the {disfmarker} {pause} the VAD . And um , it ap {pause} it ap Oh what does {disfmarker} what does ASP ? Oh that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The features , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't understand also", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It says \" baseline ASP \" .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "what is {disfmarker} {pause} what is the difference between ASP and uh baseline over ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "ASP .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Anybody know {pause} any {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh . There it is .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um Cuz there 's \" baseline Aurora \" {pause} above it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And it 's {disfmarker} This is mostly better than baseline , although in some cases it 's a little worse , in a couple cases .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , it says baseline ASP is twenty - three mill {pause} minus thirteen .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , it says what it is . But I don't how that 's different {pause} from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "From the baseline . {comment} OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I think this was {disfmarker} {pause} I think this is the same point we were at when {disfmarker} when we were up in Oregon .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} {pause} I think it 's the C - zero {disfmarker} using C - zero instead of log energy .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah , OK , mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's this .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh . OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It should be that , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "They s they say in here that the VAD is not used as an additional feature .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Shouldn't it be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Does {disfmarker} does anybody know how they 're using it ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker} so what they 're doing here is , {pause} i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "if you look down at the block diagram , {pause} um , {pause} they estimate {disfmarker} they get a {disfmarker} {pause} they get an estimate {pause} of whether it 's speech or silence ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then they have a median filter of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And so um , {pause} basically they 're trying to find stretches . The median filter is enforcing a {disfmarker} i it having some continuity .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You find stretches where the {pause} combination of the {pause} frame wise VAD and the {disfmarker} {pause} the median filter say that there 's a stretch of silence . And then it 's going through and just throwing the data away .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't understand . You mean it 's throwing out frames ? Before {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's throwing out chunks of frames , yeah . There 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the median filter is enforcing that it 's not gonna be single cases of frames , or isolated frames .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's throwing out frames and the thing is {pause} um , {pause} what I don't understand is how they 're doing this with H T", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's what I was just gonna ask .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "How can you just throw out frames ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , you {disfmarker} you can ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "i", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ? I mean y you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "it stretches again . For single frames I think it would be pretty hard .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But if you say speech starts here , speech ends there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , you can basically remove the {disfmarker} the frames from the feature {disfmarker} feature files .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so I mean in the {disfmarker} i i in the {disfmarker} in the decoding , you 're saying that we 're gonna decode from here to here .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I t", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're treating it , {pause} you know , like uh {disfmarker} well , it 's not isolated word , but {disfmarker} but connected , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "In the text they say that this {disfmarker} this is a tentative block diagram of a possible configuration we could think of . So that sort of sounds like they 're not doing that yet .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well . {pause} No they {disfmarker} they have numbers though , right ? So I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing something like that . I think that they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} I think what I mean by tha that is they 're trying to come up with a block diagram that 's plausible for the standard . In other words , it 's {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean from the point of view of {disfmarker} of uh reducing the number of bits you have to transmit it 's not a bad idea to detect silence anyway .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I 'm just wondering what exactly did they do up in this table if it wasn't this .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . But it 's {disfmarker} the thing is it 's that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Certainly it would be tricky about it intrans in transmitting voice , {pause} uh uh for listening to , is that these kinds of things {pause} uh cut {pause} speech off a lot .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right ? And so {pause} um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Plus it 's gonna introduce delays .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It does introduce delays but they 're claiming that it 's {disfmarker} it 's within the {disfmarker} {pause} the boundaries of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And the LDA introduces delays , and b {pause} what he 's suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it doesn't introduce {pause} uh , any more delay . I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same {pause} time the LDA {pause} down here {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} Wh what 's the difference between TLDA and SLDA ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Temporal and spectral .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah , thank you .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Temporal LDA .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , you would know that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So um . The temporal LDA does in fact include the same {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} I think he {disfmarker} well , by {disfmarker} by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means {pause} if you construct it this way , this {disfmarker} this delay would work in that way", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then it 'd be OK . They {disfmarker} they clearly did actually remove {pause} silent sections in order {disfmarker} because they {pause} got these {pause} word error rate {pause} results . So um I think that it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to do that in this because in fact , it 's gonna give a better word error result and therefore will help within an evaluation . Whereas to whether this would actually be in a final standard , I don't know . Um . Uh , as you know , part of the problem with evaluation right now is that the {pause} word models are pretty bad and nobody wants {disfmarker} {pause} has {disfmarker} has approached improving them . So {pause} it 's possible that a lot of the problems {pause} with so many insertions and so forth would go away if they were better word models {pause} to begin with . So {pause} this might just be a temporary thing . But {disfmarker} But , on the other hand , and maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's a decent idea . So um The question we 're gonna wanna go {pause} through next week when Hynek shows up I guess is given that we 've been {disfmarker} if you look at what we 've been trying , we 're uh looking at {pause} uh , by then I guess , combinations of features and multi - band Uh , and we 've been looking at {pause} cross - language , cross {pause} task {pause} issues . And they 've been not so much looking at {pause} the cross task uh multiple language issues . But they 've been looking at uh {disfmarker} {pause} at these issues . At the on - line normalization and the uh {pause} voice activity detection . And I guess when he comes here we 're gonna have to start deciding about {pause} um what do we choose {pause} from what we 've looked at {pause} to um blend with {pause} some group of things in what they 've looked at And once we choose that , {pause} how do we split up the {pause} effort ? Uh , because we still have {disfmarker} even once we choose , {pause} we 've still got {pause} uh another {pause} month or so , I mean there 's holidays in the way , but {disfmarker} but uh {pause} I think the evaluation data comes January thirty - first so there 's still a fair amount of time {pause} to do things together it 's just that they probably should be somewhat more coherent between the two sites {pause} in that {disfmarker} that amount of time .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "When they removed the silence frames , did they insert some kind of a marker so that the recognizer knows it 's {disfmarker} {pause} knows when it 's time to back trace or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , see they , I {disfmarker} I think they 're Um . I don't know the {disfmarker} {pause} the specifics of how they 're doing it . They 're {disfmarker} {pause} they 're getting around the way the recognizer works because they 're not allowed to {pause} um , change the scripts {pause} for the recognizer , {pause} I believe .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , right . Maybe they 're just inserting some nummy frames or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Uh . Uh , you know that 's what I had thought . But I don't {disfmarker} I don't think they are .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean that 's {disfmarker} sort of what {disfmarker} the way I had imagined would happen is that on the other side , yeah you p put some low level noise or something . Probably don't want all zeros .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Most recognizers don't like zeros but {vocalsound} but {pause} you know , {pause} put some epsilon in or some rand", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "sorry epsilon random variable {pause} in or something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Some constant vector . I mean i w Or something {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Maybe not a constant but it doesn't , uh {disfmarker} don't like to divide by the variance of that , but I mean it 's", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's right . But something that {disfmarker} what I mean is something that is {pause} very distinguishable from {pause} speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So that the {disfmarker} the silence model in HTK will always pick it up .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} that 's what I thought they would do . or else , uh {pause} uh maybe there is some indicator to tell it to start and stop , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But whatever they did , I mean they have to play within the rules of this specific evaluation .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We c we can find out .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Cuz you gotta do something . Otherwise , if it 's just a bunch of speech , stuck together {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No they 're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It would do badly", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and it didn't so badly , right ? So they did something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh . So , OK , So I think {pause} this brings me up to date a bit . It hopefully brings other {pause} people up to date a bit . And um Um {pause} I think {disfmarker} Uh , I wanna look at these numbers off - line a little bit and think about it and {disfmarker} {pause} and talk with everybody uh , {pause} outside of this meeting . Um , but uh No I mean it sounds like {disfmarker} I mean {pause} there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there are the usual number of {disfmarker} of {pause} little {disfmarker} little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they 're getting ironed out . And now we 're {pause} seem to be kind of in a position to actually {pause} uh , {pause} look at stuff and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and compare things . So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty good . Um {pause} I don't know what the {disfmarker} One of the things I wonder about , {pause} coming back to the first results you talked about , is {disfmarker} is {pause} how much , {pause} uh {pause} things could be helped {pause} by more parameters . And uh {disfmarker} {pause} And uh how many more parameters we can afford to have , {vocalsound} {pause} in terms of the uh computational limits . Because anyway when we go to {pause} twice as much data {pause} and have the same number of parameters , particularly when it 's twice as much data and it 's quite diverse , um , I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , just have a bigger hidden layer . Uh But {disfmarker} I doubt it would {pause} help by forty per cent . But {vocalsound} {pause} but uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Just curious . How are we doing on the {pause} resources ? Disk , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think we 're alright ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um , {pause} not much problems with that .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Computation ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well this table took uh {pause} more than five days to get back .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , well .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Are {disfmarker} were you folks using Gin ? That 's a {disfmarker} that just died , you know ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm , no . You were using Gin {comment} perhaps , yeah ? No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No ? Oh , that 's good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It just died .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , {pause} we 're gonna get a replacement {pause} server that 'll be a faster server , {pause} actually .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} It 's a {pause} seven hundred fifty megahertz uh SUN", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm . {comment} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {pause} But it won't be installed for {pause} a little while .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Tonic .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "U Go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Do we {disfmarker} Do we have that big new IBM machine the , I think in th", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "We have the {pause} little tiny IBM machine {vocalsound} {pause} that might someday grow up to be a big {pause} IBM machine . It 's got s slots for eight , uh IBM was donating five , I think we only got two so far , processors . We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors . They ended up being five fifty . So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz , we ended up with two {pause} that are five hundred and fifty megahertz . And more are supposed to come soon and there 's only a moderate amount of dat of memory . So I don't think {pause} anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to {pause} spend much time {pause} uh {pause} with it , but uh {vocalsound} Hopefully , {pause} they 'll get us some more {pause} parts , soon and {disfmarker} Uh , yeah , I think that 'll be {disfmarker} once we get it populated , {pause} that 'll be a nice machine . I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there . And uh {disfmarker} and uh a nice amount of memory . Uh so it 'll be a pr pretty fast Linux machine .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And if we can do things on Linux , {pause} some of the machines we have going already , like Swede ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um It seems pretty fast .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I think Fudge is pretty fast too .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean you can check with uh {pause} Dave Johnson . I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} I think the machine is just sitting there . And it does have two processors , you know and {disfmarker} {pause} Somebody could do {disfmarker} {pause} you know , uh , check out {pause} uh the multi - threading {pause} libraries . And {pause} I mean i it 's possible that the {disfmarker} I mean , I guess the prudent thing to do would be for somebody to do the work on {disfmarker} {pause} on getting our code running {pause} on that machine with two processors {pause} even though there aren't five or eight . There 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's gonna be debugging hassles and then we 'd be set for when we did have five or eight , to have it really be useful . But . {pause} Notice how I said somebody and {vocalsound} turned my head your direction . That 's one thing you don't get in these recordings . You don't get the {disfmarker} {pause} don't get the visuals but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I is it um {pause} mostly um the neural network trainings that are {pause} um slowing us down or the HTK runs that are slowing us down ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Uh , I think yes . Uh , {vocalsound} Isn't that right ? I mean I think you 're {disfmarker} you 're sort of held up by both , right ? If the {disfmarker} if the neural net trainings were a hundred times faster {pause} you still wouldn't {pause} be anything {disfmarker} running through these a hundred times faster because you 'd {pause} be stuck by the HTK trainings ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But if the HTK {disfmarker} I mean I think they 're both {disfmarker} It sounded like they were roughly equal ? Is that about right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Because , um {pause} I think that 'll be running Linux , and Sw - Swede and Fudge are already running Linux so , {pause} um I could try to get {pause} um the train the neural network trainings or the HTK stuff running under Linux , and to start with I 'm {pause} wondering which one I should pick first .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Uh , probably the neural net cuz it 's probably {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's um {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . They both {disfmarker} HTK we use for {pause} um {pause} this Aurora stuff Um {pause} Um , I think {pause} It 's not clear yet what we 're gonna use {pause} for trainings uh {disfmarker} Well , {pause} there 's the trainings uh {disfmarker} is it the training that takes the time , or the decoding ? Uh , is it about equal {pause} between the two ? For {disfmarker} for Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "For HTK ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "For {disfmarker} Yeah . For the Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh Training is longer .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . Well , I don't know how we can {disfmarker} I don't know how to {disfmarker} Do we have HTK source ? Is that {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You would think that would fairly trivially {disfmarker} the training would , anyway , th the testing {pause} uh I don't {disfmarker} I don't {pause} think would {pause} parallelize all that well . But I think {pause} that {pause} you could {pause} certainly do d um , {pause} distributed , sort of {disfmarker} {pause} Ah , no , it 's the {disfmarker} {pause} each individual {pause} sentence is pretty tricky to parallelize . But you could split up the sentences in a test set .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "They have a {disfmarker} they have a thing for doing that and th they have for awhile , in H T And you can parallelize the training .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And run it on several machines", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Aha !", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and it just basically keeps counts . And there 's something {disfmarker} {pause} a final {pause} thing that you run and it accumulates all the counts together .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't what their scripts are {pause} set up to do for the Aurora stuff , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Something that we haven't really settled on yet is other than {pause} this Aurora stuff , {pause} uh what do we do , large vocabulary {pause} training slash testing {pause} for uh tandem systems . Cuz we hadn't really done much with tandem systems for larger stuff . Cuz we had this one collaboration with CMU and we used SPHINX . Uh , we 're also gonna be collaborating with SRI and we have their {disfmarker} have theirs . Um {pause} So {pause} I don't know Um . So I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} the advantage of going with the neural net thing is that we 're gonna use the neural net trainings , no matter what , for a lot of the things we 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "whereas , w exactly which HMM {disfmarker} Gaussian - mixture - based HMM thing we use is gonna depend uh So with that , maybe we should uh {vocalsound} go to our {nonvocalsound} digit recitation task . And , it 's about eleven fifty . Canned . Uh , I can {disfmarker} I can start over here . Great , uh , could you give Adam a call . Tell him to He 's at two nine seven seven .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . I think we can {vocalsound} @ @ You know Herve 's coming tomorrow , right ? Herve will be giving a talk , yeah , talk at eleven . Did uh , did everybody sign these consent Er everybody Has everyone signed a consent form before , on previous meetings ? You don't have to do it again each time Yes . microphones off", "speaker": "Professor B" } ]

[ { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I think I 'm zero .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wow ! Unprecedented .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hello , hello , hello , hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Wh - what causes the crash ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Did you fix something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Five , five .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Hello , hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe it 's the turning {disfmarker} turning off and turning on of the mike , right ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh , you think that 's you ? Oh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Aaa - aaa - aaa .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , mine 's working .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . That 's me .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . OK . So , um I guess we are {pause} um {pause} gonna do the digits at the end . Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Channel {disfmarker} channel three , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Channel two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm , channel five ? Doesn't work ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's the mike number there , uh {pause} Uh , mike number five , and {pause} channel {disfmarker} channel four .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is it written on her sheet , I believe .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No ? Ah ,", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mike four .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Watch this .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "era el cuatro .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yep , that 's me .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "But , channel", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "This is you .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . I saw that . Ah {disfmarker} yeah , it 's OK .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah . And I 'm channel uh two I think ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ooo .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "or channel {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think I 'm channel two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , I 'm channel {disfmarker} must be channel one . Channel one ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Channel {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I decided to talk about that .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes , OK . OK . So uh {pause} I also copied uh the results that we all got in the mail I think from uh {disfmarker} {pause} from OGI and we 'll go {disfmarker} go through them also . So where are we on {disfmarker} {pause} on uh {vocalsound} {pause} our runs ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh so . {pause} uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} So {pause} As I was already said , we {disfmarker} we mainly focused on uh four kind of features .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Excuse me .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The PLP , the PLP with JRASTA , the MSG , and the MFCC from the baseline Aurora .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , and we focused for the {disfmarker} the test part on the English and the Italian . Um . We 've trained uh several neural networks on {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on the TI - digits English {pause} and on the Italian data and also on the broad uh {pause} English uh French and uh Spanish databases . Mmm , so there 's our result tables here , for the tandem approach , and um , actually what we {disfmarker} we @ @ observed is that if the network is trained on the task data it works pretty well .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . Our {disfmarker} our uh {disfmarker} {pause} There 's a {disfmarker} {pause} We 're pausing for a photo {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Chicken on the grill . Try that corner .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "How about over th from the front of the room ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's longer .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "We 're pausing for a photo opportunity here . Uh . {vocalsound} Uh . So .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh wait wait wait wait wait . Wait .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Get out of the {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hold on . Hold on .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Let me give you a black screen .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "He 's facing this way . What ? OK , this {disfmarker} this would be a {pause} good section for our silence detection .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um Oh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Musical chairs everybody !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . So um , {pause} you were saying {pause} about the training data {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , so if the network is trained on the task data um {pause} tandem works pretty well . And uh actually we have uh , results are similar Only on ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Do you mean if it 's trained only on {disfmarker} On data from just that task ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "that language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Just that task . But actually we didn't train network on {pause} uh both types of data I mean {pause} uh {pause} phonetically ba phonetically balanced uh data and task data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We only did either task {disfmarker} task data or {pause} uh broad {pause} data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um {pause} Yeah . So ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So how {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} clearly it 's gonna be good then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So what 's th", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but the question is how much {pause} worse is it {pause} if you have broad data ? I mean , {pause} my assump From what I saw from the earlier results , uh I guess last week , {pause} was that um , {pause} if you {pause} trained on one language and tested on another , say , that {pause} the results were {disfmarker} were relatively poor .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but the question is if you train on one language {pause} but you have a broad coverage {pause} and then test in another , {pause} does that {disfmarker} {pause} is that improve things {pause} i c in comparison ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If we use the same language ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , no , no . Different lang So {pause} um {pause} If you train on TI - digits {pause} and test on Italian digits , {pause} you do poorly , {pause} let 's say .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't have the numbers in front of me ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah but I did not uh do that .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so I 'm just imagining . E So , you didn't train on {pause} TIMIT and test on {disfmarker} {pause} on Italian digits , say ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} No , we did four {disfmarker} four kind of {disfmarker} of testing , actually . The first testing is {pause} with task data {disfmarker} So , with nets trained on task data . So for Italian on the Italian speech @ @ . The second test is trained on a single language um with broad database , but the same language as the t task data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But for Italian we choose Spanish which {pause} we assume is close to Italian . The third test is by using , um the three language database", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "W which in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and the fourth is", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It has three languages . That 's including the w the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "This includes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "the one that it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "In", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {pause} not digits . I mean it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "The three languages {pause} is not digits ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "it 's the broad {pause} data . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah And the fourth test is uh {pause} excluding from these three languages the language {pause} that is {pause} the task language .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK , yeah , so , that is what I wanted to know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I just wasn't saying it very well , I guess .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah . So um {pause} for uh TI - digits for ins example {pause} uh when we go from TI - digits training to {pause} TIMIT training {pause} uh we lose {pause} uh around ten percent , uh . The error rate increase u of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of ten percent , relative .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Relative . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So this is not so bad . And then when we jump to the multilingual data it 's uh it become worse and , well Around uh , let 's say , {pause} twenty perc twenty percent further .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ab - about how much ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Twenty percent further ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Twenty to {disfmarker} to thirty percent further . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And so , remind me , the multilingual stuff is just the broad data . Right ? It 's not the digits .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So it 's the combination of {pause} two things there . It 's {pause} removing the {pause} task specific {pause} training and {pause} it 's adding other languages .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But the first step is al already removing the task s specific from {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Already , right right right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So they were sort of building {pause} here ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And we lose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh {pause} So , basically when it 's trained on the {disfmarker} the multilingual broad data {pause} um or number {disfmarker} so , the {disfmarker} the {pause} ratio of our error rates uh with the {pause} baseline error rate is around {pause} uh one point one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} And it 's something like one point three of {disfmarker} of the {pause} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I i if you compare everything to the first case at the baseline , you get something like one point one for the {disfmarker} for the using the same language but a different task , and something like one point three {pause} for three {disfmarker} three languages {pause} broad stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No no no . Uh same language we are at uh {disfmarker} for at English at O point eight . So it improves , {pause} compared to the baseline . But {disfmarker} So . Le - let me .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Tas - task data", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I meant something different by baseline", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "we are u Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So let me {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} Um , {pause} so , {pause} um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , fine . Let 's {disfmarker} let 's use the conventional meaning of baseline .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} By baseline here I meant {pause} uh using the task specific data .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , the f Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {pause} uh , because that 's what you were just doing with this ten percent .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I was just {disfmarker} I just trying to understand that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So if we call {pause} a factor of w just one , just normalized to one , the word error rate {pause} that you have {pause} for using TI - digits as {disfmarker} as {pause} training and TI - digits as test ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh different words , I 'm sure ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {pause} but uh , uh the same {pause} task and so on .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "If we call that \" one \" , {pause} then what you 're saying is {pause} that the word error rate {pause} for the same language but using {pause} uh different training data than you 're testing on , say TIMIT and so forth , {pause} it 's one point one .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , it 's around one point one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . And if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you {pause} do {pause} go to {pause} three languages including the English , {pause} it 's something like one point three . That 's what you were just saying , I think .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye Uh , more actually .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "One point four ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If I {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , it 's an additional thirty percent .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What would you say ? Around one point four", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And if you exclude {pause} English , {pause} from this combination , what 's that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If we exclude English , {pause} um {pause} there is {pause} not much difference with the {pause} data with English .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Aha !", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "That 's interesting . {pause} That 's interesting . Do you see ? Because {disfmarker} Uh ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} No , that {disfmarker} that 's important . So what {disfmarker} what it 's saying here is just that \" yes , there is a reduction {pause} in performance , {pause} when you don't {pause} um {pause} have the s {pause} when you don't have {pause} um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Task data .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wait a minute , th th the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , actually {pause} it 's interesting . So it 's {disfmarker} So when you go to a different task , there 's actually not so {pause} different . It 's when you went to these {disfmarker} So what 's the difference between two and three ? Between the one point one case and the one point four case ? I 'm confused .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's multilingual .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . The only difference it 's {disfmarker} is that it 's multilingual {disfmarker} Um", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Cuz in both {disfmarker} in both {disfmarker} both of those cases , you don't have the same task .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah sure .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So is {disfmarker} is the training data for the {disfmarker} for this one point four case {disfmarker} does it include the training data for the one point one case ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , a fraction of it .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "A part of it , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "How m how much bigger is it ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um {pause} It 's two times ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , um .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "actually ? Yeah . Um . The English data {disfmarker} {pause} No , the multilingual databases are two times the {pause} broad English {pause} data . We just wanted to keep this , w well , not too huge . So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So it 's two times , but it includes the {disfmarker} but it includes the broad English data .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think so . Do you {disfmarker} Uh , Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the broad English data is what you got this one point one {pause} with . So that 's TIMIT basically right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So it 's band - limited TIMIT . This is all eight kilohertz sampling .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Downs Right .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you have band - limited TIMIT , {pause} gave you uh almost as good as a result as using TI - digits {pause} on a TI - digits test . OK ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um {pause} and {pause} um But , {pause} when you add in more training data but keep the neural net the same size , {pause} it {pause} um performs worse on the TI - digits . OK , now all of this is {disfmarker} {pause} This is noisy {pause} TI - digits , I assume ? Both training and test ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Um OK . Well . {pause} We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we may just need to uh {disfmarker} So I mean it 's interesting that h going to a different {disfmarker} different task didn't seem to hurt us that much , and going to a different language um It doesn't seem to matter {disfmarker} The difference between three and four is not particularly great , so that means that {pause} whether you have the language in or not is not such a big deal .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It sounds like um {pause} uh {pause} we may need to have more {pause} of uh things that are similar to a target language or {disfmarker} I mean . {pause} You have the same number of parameters in the neural net , you haven't increased the size of the neural net , and maybe there 's just {disfmarker} {pause} just not enough {pause} complexity to it to represent {pause} the variab increased variability in the {disfmarker} in the training set . That {disfmarker} that could be . Um {pause} So , what about {disfmarker} So these are results with {pause} uh th {pause} that you 're describing now , that {pause} they are pretty similar for the different features or {disfmarker} {pause} or uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , let me check . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . This was for the PLP ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um . The {disfmarker} Yeah . For the PLP with JRASTA the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} This is quite the same {pause} tendency , {pause} with a slight increase of the error rate , {pause} uh if we go to {disfmarker} to TIMIT . And then it 's {disfmarker} it gets worse with the multilingual . Um . Yeah . There {disfmarker} there is a difference actually with {disfmarker} b between PLP and JRASTA is that {pause} JRASTA {pause} seems to {pause} perform better with the highly mismatched {pause} condition {pause} but slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse {pause} for the well matched condition . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I have a suggestion , actually , even though it 'll delay us slightly , would {disfmarker} would you mind {pause} running into the other room and making {pause} copies of this ? Cuz we 're all sort of {disfmarker} If we c if we could look at it , while we 're talking , I think it 'd be", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} {pause} Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll sing a song or dance or something while you {vocalsound} do it , too .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Go ahead . Ah , while you 're gone I 'll ask s some of my questions .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , this way and just slightly to the left , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The um {disfmarker} What was {disfmarker} Was this number {pause} forty or {disfmarker} It was roughly the same as this one , {pause} he said ? When you had the two language versus the three language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . That 's what he was saying .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's where he removed English ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It sometimes , actually , depends on what features you 're using .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} but i it sounds like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} He {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I mean . That 's interesting because {pause} it {disfmarker} it seems like what it 's saying is not so much that you got hurt {pause} uh because {pause} you {pause} uh didn't have so much representation of English , because in the other case you don't get hurt any more , at least when {pause} it seemed like uh it {disfmarker} it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but you have the same number of parameters representing it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . I wonder {disfmarker} were um all three of these nets {pause} using the same output ? This multi - language {pause} uh labelling ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He was using uh sixty - four phonemes from {pause} SAMPA .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So this would {disfmarker} {pause} From this you would say , \" well , it doesn't really matter if we put Finnish {pause} into {pause} the training of the neural net , {pause} if there 's {pause} gonna be , {pause} you know , Finnish in the test data . \" Right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} it sounds {disfmarker} {pause} I mean , we have to be careful , cuz we haven't gotten a good result yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And comparing different bad results can be {pause} tricky .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {pause} I think it does suggest that it 's not so much uh {pause} uh cross {pause} language as cross type of speech .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But we did {disfmarker} Oh yeah , the other thing I was asking him , though , is that I think that in the case {disfmarker} Yeah , you {disfmarker} you do have to be careful because of com compounded results . I think we got some earlier results {pause} in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you didn't have {pause} three , but you just had one {pause} language . So you trained on {pause} one type of digits and tested on another . Didn - Wasn't there something of that ? Where you , {pause} say , trained on Spanish and tested on {disfmarker} on TI - digits , or the other way around ? Something like that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I thought there was something like that , {pause} that he showed me {pause} last week . We 'll have to wait till we get {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would be interesting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , This may have been what I was asking before , Stephane , but {disfmarker} {pause} but , um , wasn't there something that you did , {pause} where you trained {pause} on one language and tested on another ? I mean no {disfmarker} no mixture but just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I 'll get it for you .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh , no , no .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We 've never just trained on one lang", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Training on a single language , you mean , and testing on the other one ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Not yet .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So the only {pause} task that 's similar to this is the training on two languages , and {comment} that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But we 've done a bunch of things where we just trained on one language . Right ? I mean , you haven't {disfmarker} you haven't done all your tests on multiple languages .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , No . Either thi this is test with {pause} uh the same language {pause} but from the broad data , or it 's test with {pause} uh different languages also from the broad data , excluding the {disfmarker} So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's three or {disfmarker} three and four .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "The early experiment that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Did you do different languages from digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . No . You mean {pause} training digits {pause} on one language and using the net {pause} to recognize on the other ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Digits on another language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "See , I thought you showed me something like that last week . You had a {disfmarker} you had a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , {pause} No , I don't think so .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um What {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "These numbers are uh {pause} ratio to baseline ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , I mean wha what 's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker} this chart {disfmarker} this table that we 're looking at {pause} is um , show is all testing for TI - digits , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Bigger is worse .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you have uh basically two {pause} uh parts .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This is error rate , I think .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Ratio .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No . {pause} No .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "The upper part is for TI - digits", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "and it 's divided in three {pause} rows {pause} of four {disfmarker} four rows each .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And the first four rows is well - matched , then the s the second group of four rows is mismatched , and {pause} finally highly mismatched . And then the lower part is for Italian and it 's the same {disfmarker} {pause} the same thing .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , so the upper part is training {pause} TI - digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the HTK results , I mean . So it 's {pause} HTK training testings {pause} with different kind of features", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and what appears in the {pause} uh left column is {pause} the networks that are used for doing this .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Uh Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , What was is that i What was it that you had {pause} done {pause} last week when you showed {disfmarker} Do you remember ? Wh - when you showed me {pause} the {disfmarker} your table last week ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It - It was part of these results . Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So where is the baseline {pause} for the TI - digits {pause} located in here ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You mean the HTK Aurora baseline ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's uh the one hundred number . It 's , well , all these numbers are the ratio {pause} with respect to the baseline .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah ! Ah , OK , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So this is word {disfmarker} word error rate , so a high number is bad .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is {pause} a word error rate ratio .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "OK , I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So , seventy point two means that {pause} we reduced the error rate uh by thirty {disfmarker} thirty percent .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , OK , gotcha .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , {vocalsound} so if we take", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh um let 's see PLP {pause} uh with on - line {pause} normalization and {pause} delta - del so that 's this thing you have circled here {pause} in the second column ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "um {pause} and \" multi - English \" refers to what ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "To TIMIT . Mmm . Then you have {pause} uh MF , {pause} MS and ME which are for French , Spanish and English . And , yeah . Actually I {disfmarker} {pause} I uh forgot to say that {pause} the multilingual net are trained {pause} on {pause} uh {pause} features without the s derivatives uh but with {pause} increased frame numbers . Mmm . And we can {disfmarker} we can see on the first line of the table that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it 's slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse when we don't use delta but it 's not {disfmarker} {pause} not that much .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So w w So , I 'm sorry . I missed that . What 's MF , MS and ME ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Multi - French , Multi - Spanish", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Multi - French , Multi - Spanish , and Multi - English .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh OK . So , it 's {pause} uh {pause} broader vocabulary . Then {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK so I think what I 'm {disfmarker} what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was {disfmarker} was {pause} there were some numbers I saw , I think , that included these multiple languages and it {disfmarker} and I was seeing {pause} that it got worse . I {disfmarker} I think that was all it was . You had some very limited results that {disfmarker} at that point", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "which showed {pause} having in these {disfmarker} these other languages . In fact it might have been just this last category , {pause} having two languages broad that were {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where English was removed . So that was cross language and the {disfmarker} and the result was quite poor . What I {disfmarker} {pause} we hadn't seen yet was that if you added in the English , it 's still poor .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um now , what 's the noise condition {pause} um {pause} of the training data {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Still poor .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , I think this is what you were explaining . The noise condition is the same {disfmarker} It 's the same uh Aurora noises uh , in all these cases {pause} for the training .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's not a {pause} statistical {disfmarker} sta a strong st {pause} statistically different {pause} noise characteristic between {pause} uh the training and test", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No these are the s s s same noises ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and yet we 're seeing some kind of effect {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah . At least {disfmarker} at least for the first {disfmarker} {pause} for the well - matched ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well matched condition .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's some kind of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an effect from having these {disfmarker} uh this broader coverage um Now I guess what we should try doing with this is try {pause} testing these on u this same sort of thing on {disfmarker} you probably must have this {pause} lined up to do . To try the same t {pause} with the exact same training , do testing on {pause} the other languages .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "On {disfmarker} on um {disfmarker} So . Um , oh I well , wait a minute . You have this here , for the Italian . That 's right . OK , so , {pause} So .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so for the Italian the results are {vocalsound} uh {pause} stranger um {pause} Mmm . So what appears is that perhaps Spanish is {pause} not very close to Italian because uh , well , {pause} when using the {disfmarker} the network trained only on Spanish it 's {disfmarker} {pause} the error rate is {pause} almost uh twice {pause} the baseline error rate .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , let 's see . Is there any difference in {disfmarker} So it 's in {pause} the uh {disfmarker} So you 're saying that {pause} when you train on English {pause} and {pause} uh {pause} and {disfmarker} and test on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , you don't have training on English testing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} another difference , is that the noise {disfmarker} the noises are different .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "In {disfmarker} in what ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , For {disfmarker} for the Italian part I mean the {pause} uh {pause} the um {pause} networks are trained with noise from {pause} Aurora {disfmarker} TI - digits ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Aurora - two .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the noise is different in th", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And perhaps the noise are {pause} quite different from the noises {pause} in the speech that Italian .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Do we have any um {pause} test sets {pause} uh in {pause} any other language that um have the same noise as in {pause} the Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm , no .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Can I ask something real quick ? In {disfmarker} in the upper part {disfmarker} {pause} in the English {pause} stuff , {pause} it looks like the very best number is sixty point nine ? and that 's in the uh {disfmarker} {pause} the third {pause} section in the upper part under PLP JRASTA , sort of the middle column ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I is that {pause} a noisy condition ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So that 's matched training ? Is that what that is ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} no , the third part , so it 's uh {pause} highly mismatched . So . Training and {pause} test noise are different .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} why do you get your best number in {disfmarker} Wouldn't you get your best number in the clean case ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's relative to the um {pause} baseline mismatching", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK so these are not {disfmarker} OK , alright , I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . And then {disfmarker} so , in the {disfmarker} in the um {disfmarker} {pause} in the {pause} non - mismatched clean case , {pause} your best one was under MFCC ? That sixty - one point four ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . {pause} But it 's not a clean case . It 's {pause} a noisy case but {pause} uh training and test noises are the same .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh ! So this upper third ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh that 's still noisy ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's always noisy basically ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and , {pause} well , the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ? Um {pause} So uh , I think this will take some {pause} looking at , thinking about . But , {pause} what is uh {disfmarker} what is currently running , that 's {disfmarker} uh , i that {disfmarker} just filling in the holes here or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} ? {comment} {pause} pretty much ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no we don't plan to fill the holes", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but {pause} actually there is something important , is that {pause} um we made a lot of assumption concerning the on - line normalization and we just noticed {pause} uh recently that {pause} uh the {pause} approach that we were using {pause} was not {pause} uh {pause} leading to very good results {pause} when we {pause} used the straight features to HTK . Um {pause} {pause} Mmm . So basically d {pause} if you look at the {disfmarker} at the left of the table , {pause} the first uh row , {pause} with eighty - six , one hundred , and forty - three and seventy - five , these are the results we obtained for Italian {pause} uh with {pause} straight {pause} mmm , PLP features {pause} using on - line normalization .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . And the , mmm {disfmarker} what 's {pause} in the table , just {pause} at the left of the PLP twelve {pause} on - line normalization column , so , the numbers seventy - nine , fifty - four and {pause} uh forty - two {pause} are the results obtained by uh Pratibha with {pause} uh his on - line normalization {disfmarker} uh her on - line normalization approach .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Where is that ? seventy - nine , fifty", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , it 's just sort of sitting right on the uh {disfmarker} the column line .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Fifty - one ? This {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Oh I see , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} uh Yeah . So these are the results of {pause} OGI with {pause} on - line normalization and straight features to HTK . And the previous result , eighty - six and so on , {pause} are with our {pause} features straight to HTK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So {pause} what we see that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} there is that um {pause} uh the way we were doing this was not correct , but {pause} still {pause} the networks {pause} are very good . When we use the networks {pause} our number are better that {pause} uh Pratibha results .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We improve .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So , do you know what was wrong with the on - line normalization , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . There were diff there were different things and {pause} basically , {pause} the first thing is the mmm , {pause} alpha uh {pause} value . So , the recursion {pause} uh {pause} part . um , {pause} I used point five percent , {pause} which was the default value in the {disfmarker} {pause} in the programs here . And Pratibha used five percent .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So it adapts more {pause} quickly", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um , but , yeah . I assume that this was not important because {pause} uh previous results from {disfmarker} from Dan and {disfmarker} show that basically {pause} the {pause} both {disfmarker} both values g give the same {disfmarker} same {pause} uh results . It was true on uh {pause} TI - digits but it 's not true on Italian .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , second thing is the initialization of the {pause} stuff . Actually , {pause} uh what we were doing is to start the recursion from the beginning of the {pause} utterance . And using initial values that are the global mean and variances {pause} measured across the whole database .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And Pratibha did something different is that he {disfmarker} uh she initialed the um values of the mean and variance {pause} by computing {pause} this on the {pause} twenty - five first frames of each utterance . Mmm . There were other minor differences , the fact that {pause} she used fifteen dissities instead s instead of thirteen , and that she used C - zero instead of log energy . Uh , but the main differences concerns the recursion . So . {pause} Uh , I changed the code uh and now we have a baseline that 's similar to the OGI baseline .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's slightly {pause} uh different because {pause} I don't exactly initialize the same way she does . Actually I start , {pause} mmm , I don't wait to a fifteen {disfmarker} twenty - five {disfmarker} twenty - five frames {pause} before computing a mean and the variance {pause} to e to {disfmarker} to start the recursion .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I use the on - line scheme and only start the re recursion after the twenty - five {disfmarker} {pause} twenty - fifth frame . But , well it 's similar . So {pause} uh I retrained {pause} the networks with {pause} these {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the networks are retaining with these new {pause} features .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So basically what I expect is that {pause} these numbers will a little bit go down but {pause} perhaps not {disfmarker} not so much", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because {pause} I think the neural networks learn perhaps {pause} to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "even if the features are not {pause} normalized . It {disfmarker} it will learn how to normalize and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , but I think that {pause} given the pressure of time we probably want to draw {disfmarker} because of that {pause} especially , we wanna draw some conclusions from this , do some reductions {pause} in what we 're looking at ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and make some strong decisions for what we 're gonna do testing on before next week . So do you {disfmarker} are you {disfmarker} w did you have something going on , on the side , with uh multi - band {pause} or {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on this ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} I", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No , I {disfmarker} we plan to start this uh so , act actually we have discussed uh {pause} @ @ um , these {disfmarker} what we could do {pause} more as a {disfmarker} as a research and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we were thinking perhaps that {pause} uh {pause} the way we use the tandem is not {disfmarker} Uh , well , there is basically perhaps a flaw in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the stuff because {pause} we {pause} trained the networks {disfmarker} If we trained the networks on the {disfmarker} on {pause} a language and a t or a specific {pause} task ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um , what we ask is {disfmarker} to the network {disfmarker} is to put the bound the decision boundaries somewhere in the space .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And uh {pause} mmm and ask the network to put one , {pause} at one side of the {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a particular phoneme at one side of the boundary {disfmarker} decision boundary and one for another phoneme at the other side . And {pause} so there is kind of reduction of the information there that 's not correct because if we change task {pause} and if the phonemes are not in the same context in the new task , {pause} obviously the {pause} decision boundaries are not {disfmarker} {pause} should not be at the same {pause} place .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I di", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But the way the feature gives {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the way the network gives the features is that it reduce completely the {disfmarker} {pause} it removes completely the information {disfmarker} {pause} a lot of information from the {disfmarker} the features {pause} by uh {pause} uh {pause} placing the decision boundaries at {pause} optimal places for {pause} one kind of {pause} data but {pause} this is not the case for another kind of data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's a trade - off ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ? Any - anyway go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . So uh what we were thinking about is perhaps {pause} um one way {pause} to solve this problem is increase the number of {pause} outputs of the neural networks . Doing something like , um {pause} um phonemes within context and , well , basically context dependent phonemes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Maybe . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think {pause} you could make {pause} the same argument , it 'd be just as legitimate , {pause} for hybrid systems {pause} as well . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah but , we know that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And in fact , {pause} th things get better with context dependent {pause} versions . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye - yeah but here it 's something different . We want to have features", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh well , {pause} um .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it 's still true {pause} that what you 're doing {pause} is you 're ignoring {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're coming up with something to represent , {pause} whether it 's a distribution , {pause} probability distribution or features , you 're coming up with a set of variables {pause} that are representing {pause} uh , {pause} things that vary w over context .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , and you 're {pause} putting it all together , ignoring the differences in context . That {disfmarker} that 's true {pause} for the hybrid system , it 's true for a tandem system . So , for that reason , when you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a hybrid system , {pause} when you incorporate context one way or another , {pause} you do get better scores .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ? But I {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a big deal {pause} to get that . I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of {disfmarker} And once you {disfmarker} the other thing is that once you represent {disfmarker} start representing more and more context {pause} it is {pause} uh {pause} much more {pause} um specific {pause} to a particular task in language . So um Uh , the {disfmarker} {pause} the acoustics associated with {pause} uh a particular context , for instance you may have some kinds of contexts that will never occur {pause} in one language and will occur frequently in the other , so the qu the issue of getting enough training {pause} for a particular kind of context becomes harder . We already actually don't have a huge amount of training data um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} mmm , I mean , {pause} the {disfmarker} the way we {disfmarker} we do it now is that we have a neural network and {pause} basically {pause} the net network is trained almost to give binary decisions .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And {pause} uh {disfmarker} binary decisions about phonemes . Nnn {disfmarker} Uh It 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Almost . But I mean it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does give a distribution .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {pause} it is true that if there 's two phones that are very similar , {pause} that {pause} uh {pause} the {disfmarker} {pause} i it may prefer one but it will {pause} give a reasonably high value to the other , too .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , sure but uh {pause} So basically it 's almost binary decisions and {pause} um the idea of using more {pause} classes is {pause} to {pause} get something that 's {pause} less binary decisions .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh no , but it would still be even more of a binary decision . It {disfmarker} it 'd be even more of one . Because then you would say {pause} that in {disfmarker} that this phone in this context is a one , {pause} but the same phone in a slightly different context is a zero .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "That would be even {disfmarker} even more distinct of a binary decision . I actually would have thought you 'd wanna go the other way and have fewer classes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , I mean for instance , the {disfmarker} the thing I was arguing for before , but again which I don't think we have time to try , {pause} is something in which you would modify the code so you could train to have several outputs on and use articulatory features", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "cuz then that would {disfmarker} that would go {disfmarker} {pause} that would be much broader and cover many different situations . But if you go to very very fine categories , it 's very {pause} binary .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah , perhaps you 're right , but you have more classes so {pause} you {disfmarker} you have more information in your features . So , {vocalsound} Um {pause} You have more information in the {pause} uh", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . True .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "posteriors vector um which means that {disfmarker} But still the information is relevant", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it 's information that helps to discriminate ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it 's possible to be able to discriminate {pause} among the phonemes in context .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's an interesting thought .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean we {disfmarker} we could disagree about it at length", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but the {disfmarker} the real thing is if you 're interested in it you 'll probably try it", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we 'll see . But {disfmarker} but what I 'm more concerned with now , as an operational level , is {pause} uh , you know ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "what do we do in four or five days ? Uh , and {disfmarker} {pause} so we have {pause} to be concerned {pause} with Are we gonna look at any combinations of things , you know once the nets get retrained so you have this problem out of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , are we going to look at {pause} multi - band ? Are we gonna look at combinations of things ? Uh , what questions are we gonna ask , uh now that , I mean , {pause} we should probably turn shortly to this O G I note . Um , how are we going to {pause} combine {pause} with what they 've been focusing on ? Uh , {pause} Uh we haven't been doing any of the L D A RASTA sort of thing .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And they , although they don't talk about it in this note , um , {pause} there 's um , {pause} the issue of the {pause} um Mu law {pause} business {pause} uh {pause} versus the logarithm , um , {pause} so .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So what i what is going on right now ? What 's right {disfmarker} you 've got {pause} nets retraining , Are there {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any H T K {pause} trainings {disfmarker} testings going on ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "N", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm trying the HTK with eh , {pause} PLP twelve on - line delta - delta and MSG filter {pause} together .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "The combination , I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The combination , yeah . But I haven't result {vocalsound} at this moment .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "MSG and {disfmarker} and PLP .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . ", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "And is this with the revised {pause} on - line normalization ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye - Uh , with the old {pause} older ,", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Old one . So it 's using all the nets for that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "but again we have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} We have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} maybe it 's not making too much difference ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {pause} We can know soon .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh so there is this combination , yeah . Working on combination obviously .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Um , I will start work on multi - band . And {pause} we {pause} plan to work also on the idea of using both {pause} features {pause} and net outputs .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Um . And {pause} we think that {pause} with this approach perhaps {pause} we could reduce the number of outputs of the neural network . Um , So , get simpler networks , because we still have the features . So we have um {pause} come up with um {pause} different kind of {pause} broad phonetic categories . And we have {disfmarker} Basically we have three {pause} types of broad phonetic classes . Well , something using place of articulation which {disfmarker} which leads to {pause} nine , I think , {pause} broad classes . Uh , another which is based on manner , which is {disfmarker} is also something like nine classes . And then , {pause} something that combine both , and we have {pause} twenty f {pause} twenty - five ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Twenty - seven .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Twenty - seven broad classes . So like , uh , oh , I don't know , like back vowels , front vowels .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So what you do {disfmarker} um I just wanna understand", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um For the moments we do not {disfmarker} don't have nets ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so {pause} You have two net or three nets ? Was this ? How many {disfmarker} how many nets do you have ? No nets .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean , {pause} It 's just {disfmarker} Were we just changing {pause} the labels to retrain nets {pause} with fewer out outputs .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Begin to work in this . We are @ @ .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Right . But {disfmarker} but I didn't understand {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} the software currently just has {disfmarker} uh a {disfmarker} allows for I think , the one {disfmarker} one hot output . So you 're having multiple nets and combining them , or {disfmarker} ? Uh , how are you {disfmarker} how are you coming up with {disfmarker} If you say {pause} uh {pause} If you have a place {pause} characteristic and a manner characteristic , how do you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It - It 's the single net ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I think they have one output .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's just one net .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's one net with {pause} um {pause} twenty - seven outputs", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "if we have twenty - seven classes ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I see . I see , OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's basically a standard net with fewer {pause} classes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So you 're sort of going the other way of what you were saying a bit ago instead of {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah . B b including the features , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But including the features .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I don't think this {pause} will work {pause} alone . I think it will get worse because Well , I believe the effect that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of too reducing too much the information is {pause} basically {disfmarker} basically what happens", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But you think if you include that {pause} plus the other features ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah , because {pause} there is perhaps one important thing that the net {pause} brings , and OGI show showed that , is {pause} the distinction between {pause} sp speech and silence Because these nets are trained on well - controlled condition . I mean the labels are obtained on clean speech , and we add noise after . So this is one thing And But perhaps , something intermediary using also {pause} some broad classes could {disfmarker} could bring so much more information . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so again then we have these broad classes and {disfmarker} well , somewhat broad . I mean , it 's twenty - seven instead of sixty - four , {pause} basically . And you have the original features .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Which are PLP , or something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And then uh , just to remind me , all of that goes {pause} into {disfmarker} uh , that all of that is transformed by uh , uh , K - KL or something , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . There will probably be ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mu .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "yeah , one single KL to transform everything", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or {vocalsound} {pause} uh ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No transform the PLP", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "per", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and only transform the other I 'm not sure .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Well no ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "This is {pause} still something {pause} that", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah , we {pause} don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's a question of whether you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two e @ @ it 's one .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . Whether you would transform together or just one . Yeah . Might wanna try it both ways . But that 's interesting . So that 's something that you 're {disfmarker} you haven't trained yet but are preparing to train , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um {pause} {pause} Yeah , so I think Hynek will be here Monday .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": " Monday or Tuesday . So", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I think , you know , we need to {pause} choose the {disfmarker} choose the experiments carefully , so we can get uh key {disfmarker} {pause} key questions answered {pause} uh before then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and {pause} leave other ones aside even if it {pause} leaves incomplete {pause} tables {vocalsound} {pause} someplace , uh {pause} uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really time to {disfmarker} {pause} time to choose .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , let me pass this out , {pause} by the way . Um These are {disfmarker} Did {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} {pause} did I interrupt you ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have one .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Were there other things that you wanted to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no . I don't think so .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , thanks .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Ah ! {pause} OK . {pause} OK , we have {pause} lots of them .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We have one . ", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "OK , so {vocalsound} um , Something I asked {disfmarker} So they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing {pause} the {disfmarker} the VAD I guess they mean voice activity detection So again , it 's the silence {disfmarker} So they 've just trained up a net {pause} which has two outputs , I believe . Um {vocalsound} I asked uh {pause} Hynek whether {disfmarker} I haven't talked to Sunil {disfmarker} I asked Hynek whether {pause} they compared that to {pause} just taking the nets we already had {pause} and summing up the probabilities .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} To get the speech {disfmarker} voice activity detection , or else just using the silence , {pause} if there 's only one {pause} silence output . Um {pause} And , he didn't think they had , um . But on the other hand , maybe they can get by with a smaller net and {pause} maybe {pause} sometimes you don't run the other , maybe there 's a computational advantage to having a separate net , anyway .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So um Their uh {disfmarker} {pause} the results look pretty good . Um , {pause} I mean , not uniformly .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , there 's a {disfmarker} an example or two {pause} that you can find , where it made it slightly worse , but {pause} uh in {disfmarker} in all but a couple {pause} examples .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But they have a question of the result . Um how are trained the {disfmarker} the LDA filter ? How obtained the LDA filter ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I I 'm sorry . I don't understand your question .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes , um the LDA filter {pause} needs some {pause} training set {pause} to obtain the filter . Maybe I don't know exactly how {pause} they are obtained .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It 's on {pause} training .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Training , with the training test of each {disfmarker} You understand me ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh for example , {pause} LDA filter {pause} need a set of {disfmarker} {pause} a set of training {pause} to obtain the filter .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And maybe {pause} for the Italian , for the TD {pause} TE on for Finnish , these filter are {disfmarker} are obtained with their own training set .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes , I don't know . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} so that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very good question , then {disfmarker} now that it {disfmarker} {pause} I understand it . It 's \" yeah , where does the LDA come from ? \" In the {disfmarker} In {pause} earlier experiments , they had taken LDA {pause} from a completely different database , right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , because maybe it the same situation that the neural network training with their own", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "set .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So that 's a good question . Where does it come from ? Yeah , I don't know . Um , {pause} but uh to tell you the {pause} truth , I wasn't actually looking at the LDA so much when I {disfmarker} I was looking at it I was {pause} mostly thinking about the {disfmarker} {pause} the VAD . And um , it ap {pause} it ap Oh what does {disfmarker} what does ASP ? Oh that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The features , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't understand also", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It says \" baseline ASP \" .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "what is {disfmarker} {pause} what is the difference between ASP and uh baseline over ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "ASP .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Anybody know {pause} any {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh . There it is .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um Cuz there 's \" baseline Aurora \" {pause} above it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And it 's {disfmarker} This is mostly better than baseline , although in some cases it 's a little worse , in a couple cases .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , it says baseline ASP is twenty - three mill {pause} minus thirteen .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , it says what it is . But I don't how that 's different {pause} from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "From the baseline . {comment} OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I think this was {disfmarker} {pause} I think this is the same point we were at when {disfmarker} when we were up in Oregon .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} {pause} I think it 's the C - zero {disfmarker} using C - zero instead of log energy .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah , OK , mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's this .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh . OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It should be that , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "They s they say in here that the VAD is not used as an additional feature .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Shouldn't it be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Does {disfmarker} does anybody know how they 're using it ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker} so what they 're doing here is , {pause} i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "if you look down at the block diagram , {pause} um , {pause} they estimate {disfmarker} they get a {disfmarker} {pause} they get an estimate {pause} of whether it 's speech or silence ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then they have a median filter of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And so um , {pause} basically they 're trying to find stretches . The median filter is enforcing a {disfmarker} i it having some continuity .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You find stretches where the {pause} combination of the {pause} frame wise VAD and the {disfmarker} {pause} the median filter say that there 's a stretch of silence . And then it 's going through and just throwing the data away .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't understand . You mean it 's throwing out frames ? Before {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's throwing out chunks of frames , yeah . There 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the median filter is enforcing that it 's not gonna be single cases of frames , or isolated frames .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's throwing out frames and the thing is {pause} um , {pause} what I don't understand is how they 're doing this with H T", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's what I was just gonna ask .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "How can you just throw out frames ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , you {disfmarker} you can ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "i", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ? I mean y you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "it stretches again . For single frames I think it would be pretty hard .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But if you say speech starts here , speech ends there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , you can basically remove the {disfmarker} the frames from the feature {disfmarker} feature files .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so I mean in the {disfmarker} i i in the {disfmarker} in the decoding , you 're saying that we 're gonna decode from here to here .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I t", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're treating it , {pause} you know , like uh {disfmarker} well , it 's not isolated word , but {disfmarker} but connected , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "In the text they say that this {disfmarker} this is a tentative block diagram of a possible configuration we could think of . So that sort of sounds like they 're not doing that yet .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well . {pause} No they {disfmarker} they have numbers though , right ? So I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing something like that . I think that they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} I think what I mean by tha that is they 're trying to come up with a block diagram that 's plausible for the standard . In other words , it 's {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean from the point of view of {disfmarker} of uh reducing the number of bits you have to transmit it 's not a bad idea to detect silence anyway .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I 'm just wondering what exactly did they do up in this table if it wasn't this .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . But it 's {disfmarker} the thing is it 's that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Certainly it would be tricky about it intrans in transmitting voice , {pause} uh uh for listening to , is that these kinds of things {pause} uh cut {pause} speech off a lot .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right ? And so {pause} um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Plus it 's gonna introduce delays .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It does introduce delays but they 're claiming that it 's {disfmarker} it 's within the {disfmarker} {pause} the boundaries of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And the LDA introduces delays , and b {pause} what he 's suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it doesn't introduce {pause} uh , any more delay . I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same {pause} time the LDA {pause} down here {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} Wh what 's the difference between TLDA and SLDA ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Temporal and spectral .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah , thank you .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Temporal LDA .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , you would know that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So um . The temporal LDA does in fact include the same {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} I think he {disfmarker} well , by {disfmarker} by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means {pause} if you construct it this way , this {disfmarker} this delay would work in that way", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then it 'd be OK . They {disfmarker} they clearly did actually remove {pause} silent sections in order {disfmarker} because they {pause} got these {pause} word error rate {pause} results . So um I think that it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to do that in this because in fact , it 's gonna give a better word error result and therefore will help within an evaluation . Whereas to whether this would actually be in a final standard , I don't know . Um . Uh , as you know , part of the problem with evaluation right now is that the {pause} word models are pretty bad and nobody wants {disfmarker} {pause} has {disfmarker} has approached improving them . So {pause} it 's possible that a lot of the problems {pause} with so many insertions and so forth would go away if they were better word models {pause} to begin with . So {pause} this might just be a temporary thing . But {disfmarker} But , on the other hand , and maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's a decent idea . So um The question we 're gonna wanna go {pause} through next week when Hynek shows up I guess is given that we 've been {disfmarker} if you look at what we 've been trying , we 're uh looking at {pause} uh , by then I guess , combinations of features and multi - band Uh , and we 've been looking at {pause} cross - language , cross {pause} task {pause} issues . And they 've been not so much looking at {pause} the cross task uh multiple language issues . But they 've been looking at uh {disfmarker} {pause} at these issues . At the on - line normalization and the uh {pause} voice activity detection . And I guess when he comes here we 're gonna have to start deciding about {pause} um what do we choose {pause} from what we 've looked at {pause} to um blend with {pause} some group of things in what they 've looked at And once we choose that , {pause} how do we split up the {pause} effort ? Uh , because we still have {disfmarker} even once we choose , {pause} we 've still got {pause} uh another {pause} month or so , I mean there 's holidays in the way , but {disfmarker} but uh {pause} I think the evaluation data comes January thirty - first so there 's still a fair amount of time {pause} to do things together it 's just that they probably should be somewhat more coherent between the two sites {pause} in that {disfmarker} that amount of time .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "When they removed the silence frames , did they insert some kind of a marker so that the recognizer knows it 's {disfmarker} {pause} knows when it 's time to back trace or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , see they , I {disfmarker} I think they 're Um . I don't know the {disfmarker} {pause} the specifics of how they 're doing it . They 're {disfmarker} {pause} they 're getting around the way the recognizer works because they 're not allowed to {pause} um , change the scripts {pause} for the recognizer , {pause} I believe .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , right . Maybe they 're just inserting some nummy frames or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Uh . Uh , you know that 's what I had thought . But I don't {disfmarker} I don't think they are .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean that 's {disfmarker} sort of what {disfmarker} the way I had imagined would happen is that on the other side , yeah you p put some low level noise or something . Probably don't want all zeros .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Most recognizers don't like zeros but {vocalsound} but {pause} you know , {pause} put some epsilon in or some rand", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "sorry epsilon random variable {pause} in or something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Some constant vector . I mean i w Or something {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Maybe not a constant but it doesn't , uh {disfmarker} don't like to divide by the variance of that , but I mean it 's", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's right . But something that {disfmarker} what I mean is something that is {pause} very distinguishable from {pause} speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So that the {disfmarker} the silence model in HTK will always pick it up .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} that 's what I thought they would do . or else , uh {pause} uh maybe there is some indicator to tell it to start and stop , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But whatever they did , I mean they have to play within the rules of this specific evaluation .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We c we can find out .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Cuz you gotta do something . Otherwise , if it 's just a bunch of speech , stuck together {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No they 're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It would do badly", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and it didn't so badly , right ? So they did something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh . So , OK , So I think {pause} this brings me up to date a bit . It hopefully brings other {pause} people up to date a bit . And um Um {pause} I think {disfmarker} Uh , I wanna look at these numbers off - line a little bit and think about it and {disfmarker} {pause} and talk with everybody uh , {pause} outside of this meeting . Um , but uh No I mean it sounds like {disfmarker} I mean {pause} there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there are the usual number of {disfmarker} of {pause} little {disfmarker} little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they 're getting ironed out . And now we 're {pause} seem to be kind of in a position to actually {pause} uh , {pause} look at stuff and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and compare things . So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty good . Um {pause} I don't know what the {disfmarker} One of the things I wonder about , {pause} coming back to the first results you talked about , is {disfmarker} is {pause} how much , {pause} uh {pause} things could be helped {pause} by more parameters . And uh {disfmarker} {pause} And uh how many more parameters we can afford to have , {vocalsound} {pause} in terms of the uh computational limits . Because anyway when we go to {pause} twice as much data {pause} and have the same number of parameters , particularly when it 's twice as much data and it 's quite diverse , um , I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , just have a bigger hidden layer . Uh But {disfmarker} I doubt it would {pause} help by forty per cent . But {vocalsound} {pause} but uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Just curious . How are we doing on the {pause} resources ? Disk , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think we 're alright ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um , {pause} not much problems with that .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Computation ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well this table took uh {pause} more than five days to get back .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , well .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Are {disfmarker} were you folks using Gin ? That 's a {disfmarker} that just died , you know ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm , no . You were using Gin {comment} perhaps , yeah ? No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No ? Oh , that 's good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It just died .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , {pause} we 're gonna get a replacement {pause} server that 'll be a faster server , {pause} actually .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} It 's a {pause} seven hundred fifty megahertz uh SUN", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm . {comment} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {pause} But it won't be installed for {pause} a little while .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Tonic .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "U Go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Do we {disfmarker} Do we have that big new IBM machine the , I think in th", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "We have the {pause} little tiny IBM machine {vocalsound} {pause} that might someday grow up to be a big {pause} IBM machine . It 's got s slots for eight , uh IBM was donating five , I think we only got two so far , processors . We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors . They ended up being five fifty . So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz , we ended up with two {pause} that are five hundred and fifty megahertz . And more are supposed to come soon and there 's only a moderate amount of dat of memory . So I don't think {pause} anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to {pause} spend much time {pause} uh {pause} with it , but uh {vocalsound} Hopefully , {pause} they 'll get us some more {pause} parts , soon and {disfmarker} Uh , yeah , I think that 'll be {disfmarker} once we get it populated , {pause} that 'll be a nice machine . I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there . And uh {disfmarker} and uh a nice amount of memory . Uh so it 'll be a pr pretty fast Linux machine .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And if we can do things on Linux , {pause} some of the machines we have going already , like Swede ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um It seems pretty fast .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I think Fudge is pretty fast too .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean you can check with uh {pause} Dave Johnson . I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} I think the machine is just sitting there . And it does have two processors , you know and {disfmarker} {pause} Somebody could do {disfmarker} {pause} you know , uh , check out {pause} uh the multi - threading {pause} libraries . And {pause} I mean i it 's possible that the {disfmarker} I mean , I guess the prudent thing to do would be for somebody to do the work on {disfmarker} {pause} on getting our code running {pause} on that machine with two processors {pause} even though there aren't five or eight . There 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's gonna be debugging hassles and then we 'd be set for when we did have five or eight , to have it really be useful . But . {pause} Notice how I said somebody and {vocalsound} turned my head your direction . That 's one thing you don't get in these recordings . You don't get the {disfmarker} {pause} don't get the visuals but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I is it um {pause} mostly um the neural network trainings that are {pause} um slowing us down or the HTK runs that are slowing us down ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Uh , I think yes . Uh , {vocalsound} Isn't that right ? I mean I think you 're {disfmarker} you 're sort of held up by both , right ? If the {disfmarker} if the neural net trainings were a hundred times faster {pause} you still wouldn't {pause} be anything {disfmarker} running through these a hundred times faster because you 'd {pause} be stuck by the HTK trainings ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But if the HTK {disfmarker} I mean I think they 're both {disfmarker} It sounded like they were roughly equal ? Is that about right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Because , um {pause} I think that 'll be running Linux , and Sw - Swede and Fudge are already running Linux so , {pause} um I could try to get {pause} um the train the neural network trainings or the HTK stuff running under Linux , and to start with I 'm {pause} wondering which one I should pick first .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Uh , probably the neural net cuz it 's probably {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's um {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . They both {disfmarker} HTK we use for {pause} um {pause} this Aurora stuff Um {pause} Um , I think {pause} It 's not clear yet what we 're gonna use {pause} for trainings uh {disfmarker} Well , {pause} there 's the trainings uh {disfmarker} is it the training that takes the time , or the decoding ? Uh , is it about equal {pause} between the two ? For {disfmarker} for Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "For HTK ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "For {disfmarker} Yeah . For the Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh Training is longer .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . Well , I don't know how we can {disfmarker} I don't know how to {disfmarker} Do we have HTK source ? Is that {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You would think that would fairly trivially {disfmarker} the training would , anyway , th the testing {pause} uh I don't {disfmarker} I don't {pause} think would {pause} parallelize all that well . But I think {pause} that {pause} you could {pause} certainly do d um , {pause} distributed , sort of {disfmarker} {pause} Ah , no , it 's the {disfmarker} {pause} each individual {pause} sentence is pretty tricky to parallelize . But you could split up the sentences in a test set .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "They have a {disfmarker} they have a thing for doing that and th they have for awhile , in H T And you can parallelize the training .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And run it on several machines", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Aha !", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and it just basically keeps counts . And there 's something {disfmarker} {pause} a final {pause} thing that you run and it accumulates all the counts together .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't what their scripts are {pause} set up to do for the Aurora stuff , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Something that we haven't really settled on yet is other than {pause} this Aurora stuff , {pause} uh what do we do , large vocabulary {pause} training slash testing {pause} for uh tandem systems . Cuz we hadn't really done much with tandem systems for larger stuff . Cuz we had this one collaboration with CMU and we used SPHINX . Uh , we 're also gonna be collaborating with SRI and we have their {disfmarker} have theirs . Um {pause} So {pause} I don't know Um . So I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} the advantage of going with the neural net thing is that we 're gonna use the neural net trainings , no matter what , for a lot of the things we 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "whereas , w exactly which HMM {disfmarker} Gaussian - mixture - based HMM thing we use is gonna depend uh So with that , maybe we should uh {vocalsound} go to our {nonvocalsound} digit recitation task . And , it 's about eleven fifty . Canned . Uh , I can {disfmarker} I can start over here . Great , uh , could you give Adam a call . Tell him to He 's at two nine seven seven .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . I think we can {vocalsound} @ @ You know Herve 's coming tomorrow , right ? Herve will be giving a talk , yeah , talk at eleven . Did uh , did everybody sign these consent Er everybody Has everyone signed a consent form before , on previous meetings ? You don't have to do it again each time Yes . microphones off", "speaker": "Professor B" } ]

[ { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I think I 'm zero .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wow ! Unprecedented .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hello , hello , hello , hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Wh - what causes the crash ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Did you fix something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Five , five .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Hello , hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe it 's the turning {disfmarker} turning off and turning on of the mike , right ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh , you think that 's you ? Oh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Aaa - aaa - aaa .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , mine 's working .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . That 's me .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . OK . So , um I guess we are {pause} um {pause} gonna do the digits at the end . Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Channel {disfmarker} channel three , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Channel two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm , channel five ? Doesn't work ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's the mike number there , uh {pause} Uh , mike number five , and {pause} channel {disfmarker} channel four .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is it written on her sheet , I believe .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No ? Ah ,", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mike four .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Watch this .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "era el cuatro .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yep , that 's me .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "But , channel", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "This is you .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . I saw that . Ah {disfmarker} yeah , it 's OK .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah . And I 'm channel uh two I think ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ooo .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "or channel {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think I 'm channel two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , I 'm channel {disfmarker} must be channel one . Channel one ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Channel {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I decided to talk about that .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes , OK . OK . So uh {pause} I also copied uh the results that we all got in the mail I think from uh {disfmarker} {pause} from OGI and we 'll go {disfmarker} go through them also . So where are we on {disfmarker} {pause} on uh {vocalsound} {pause} our runs ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh so . {pause} uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} So {pause} As I was already said , we {disfmarker} we mainly focused on uh four kind of features .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Excuse me .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The PLP , the PLP with JRASTA , the MSG , and the MFCC from the baseline Aurora .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , and we focused for the {disfmarker} the test part on the English and the Italian . Um . We 've trained uh several neural networks on {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on the TI - digits English {pause} and on the Italian data and also on the broad uh {pause} English uh French and uh Spanish databases . Mmm , so there 's our result tables here , for the tandem approach , and um , actually what we {disfmarker} we @ @ observed is that if the network is trained on the task data it works pretty well .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . Our {disfmarker} our uh {disfmarker} {pause} There 's a {disfmarker} {pause} We 're pausing for a photo {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Chicken on the grill . Try that corner .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "How about over th from the front of the room ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's longer .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "We 're pausing for a photo opportunity here . Uh . {vocalsound} Uh . So .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh wait wait wait wait wait . Wait .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Get out of the {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hold on . Hold on .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Let me give you a black screen .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "He 's facing this way . What ? OK , this {disfmarker} this would be a {pause} good section for our silence detection .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um Oh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Musical chairs everybody !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . So um , {pause} you were saying {pause} about the training data {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , so if the network is trained on the task data um {pause} tandem works pretty well . And uh actually we have uh , results are similar Only on ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Do you mean if it 's trained only on {disfmarker} On data from just that task ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "that language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Just that task . But actually we didn't train network on {pause} uh both types of data I mean {pause} uh {pause} phonetically ba phonetically balanced uh data and task data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We only did either task {disfmarker} task data or {pause} uh broad {pause} data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um {pause} Yeah . So ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So how {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} clearly it 's gonna be good then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So what 's th", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but the question is how much {pause} worse is it {pause} if you have broad data ? I mean , {pause} my assump From what I saw from the earlier results , uh I guess last week , {pause} was that um , {pause} if you {pause} trained on one language and tested on another , say , that {pause} the results were {disfmarker} were relatively poor .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but the question is if you train on one language {pause} but you have a broad coverage {pause} and then test in another , {pause} does that {disfmarker} {pause} is that improve things {pause} i c in comparison ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If we use the same language ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , no , no . Different lang So {pause} um {pause} If you train on TI - digits {pause} and test on Italian digits , {pause} you do poorly , {pause} let 's say .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't have the numbers in front of me ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah but I did not uh do that .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so I 'm just imagining . E So , you didn't train on {pause} TIMIT and test on {disfmarker} {pause} on Italian digits , say ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} No , we did four {disfmarker} four kind of {disfmarker} of testing , actually . The first testing is {pause} with task data {disfmarker} So , with nets trained on task data . So for Italian on the Italian speech @ @ . The second test is trained on a single language um with broad database , but the same language as the t task data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But for Italian we choose Spanish which {pause} we assume is close to Italian . The third test is by using , um the three language database", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "W which in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and the fourth is", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It has three languages . That 's including the w the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "This includes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "the one that it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "In", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {pause} not digits . I mean it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "The three languages {pause} is not digits ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "it 's the broad {pause} data . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah And the fourth test is uh {pause} excluding from these three languages the language {pause} that is {pause} the task language .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK , yeah , so , that is what I wanted to know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I just wasn't saying it very well , I guess .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah . So um {pause} for uh TI - digits for ins example {pause} uh when we go from TI - digits training to {pause} TIMIT training {pause} uh we lose {pause} uh around ten percent , uh . The error rate increase u of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of ten percent , relative .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Relative . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So this is not so bad . And then when we jump to the multilingual data it 's uh it become worse and , well Around uh , let 's say , {pause} twenty perc twenty percent further .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ab - about how much ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Twenty percent further ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Twenty to {disfmarker} to thirty percent further . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And so , remind me , the multilingual stuff is just the broad data . Right ? It 's not the digits .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So it 's the combination of {pause} two things there . It 's {pause} removing the {pause} task specific {pause} training and {pause} it 's adding other languages .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But the first step is al already removing the task s specific from {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Already , right right right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So they were sort of building {pause} here ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And we lose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh {pause} So , basically when it 's trained on the {disfmarker} the multilingual broad data {pause} um or number {disfmarker} so , the {disfmarker} the {pause} ratio of our error rates uh with the {pause} baseline error rate is around {pause} uh one point one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} And it 's something like one point three of {disfmarker} of the {pause} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I i if you compare everything to the first case at the baseline , you get something like one point one for the {disfmarker} for the using the same language but a different task , and something like one point three {pause} for three {disfmarker} three languages {pause} broad stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No no no . Uh same language we are at uh {disfmarker} for at English at O point eight . So it improves , {pause} compared to the baseline . But {disfmarker} So . Le - let me .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Tas - task data", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I meant something different by baseline", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "we are u Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So let me {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} Um , {pause} so , {pause} um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , fine . Let 's {disfmarker} let 's use the conventional meaning of baseline .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} By baseline here I meant {pause} uh using the task specific data .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , the f Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {pause} uh , because that 's what you were just doing with this ten percent .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I was just {disfmarker} I just trying to understand that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So if we call {pause} a factor of w just one , just normalized to one , the word error rate {pause} that you have {pause} for using TI - digits as {disfmarker} as {pause} training and TI - digits as test ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh different words , I 'm sure ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {pause} but uh , uh the same {pause} task and so on .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "If we call that \" one \" , {pause} then what you 're saying is {pause} that the word error rate {pause} for the same language but using {pause} uh different training data than you 're testing on , say TIMIT and so forth , {pause} it 's one point one .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , it 's around one point one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . And if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you {pause} do {pause} go to {pause} three languages including the English , {pause} it 's something like one point three . That 's what you were just saying , I think .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye Uh , more actually .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "One point four ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If I {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , it 's an additional thirty percent .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What would you say ? Around one point four", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And if you exclude {pause} English , {pause} from this combination , what 's that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If we exclude English , {pause} um {pause} there is {pause} not much difference with the {pause} data with English .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Aha !", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "That 's interesting . {pause} That 's interesting . Do you see ? Because {disfmarker} Uh ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} No , that {disfmarker} that 's important . So what {disfmarker} what it 's saying here is just that \" yes , there is a reduction {pause} in performance , {pause} when you don't {pause} um {pause} have the s {pause} when you don't have {pause} um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Task data .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wait a minute , th th the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , actually {pause} it 's interesting . So it 's {disfmarker} So when you go to a different task , there 's actually not so {pause} different . It 's when you went to these {disfmarker} So what 's the difference between two and three ? Between the one point one case and the one point four case ? I 'm confused .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's multilingual .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . The only difference it 's {disfmarker} is that it 's multilingual {disfmarker} Um", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Cuz in both {disfmarker} in both {disfmarker} both of those cases , you don't have the same task .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah sure .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So is {disfmarker} is the training data for the {disfmarker} for this one point four case {disfmarker} does it include the training data for the one point one case ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , a fraction of it .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "A part of it , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "How m how much bigger is it ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um {pause} It 's two times ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , um .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "actually ? Yeah . Um . The English data {disfmarker} {pause} No , the multilingual databases are two times the {pause} broad English {pause} data . We just wanted to keep this , w well , not too huge . So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So it 's two times , but it includes the {disfmarker} but it includes the broad English data .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think so . Do you {disfmarker} Uh , Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the broad English data is what you got this one point one {pause} with . So that 's TIMIT basically right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So it 's band - limited TIMIT . This is all eight kilohertz sampling .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Downs Right .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you have band - limited TIMIT , {pause} gave you uh almost as good as a result as using TI - digits {pause} on a TI - digits test . OK ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um {pause} and {pause} um But , {pause} when you add in more training data but keep the neural net the same size , {pause} it {pause} um performs worse on the TI - digits . OK , now all of this is {disfmarker} {pause} This is noisy {pause} TI - digits , I assume ? Both training and test ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Um OK . Well . {pause} We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we may just need to uh {disfmarker} So I mean it 's interesting that h going to a different {disfmarker} different task didn't seem to hurt us that much , and going to a different language um It doesn't seem to matter {disfmarker} The difference between three and four is not particularly great , so that means that {pause} whether you have the language in or not is not such a big deal .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It sounds like um {pause} uh {pause} we may need to have more {pause} of uh things that are similar to a target language or {disfmarker} I mean . {pause} You have the same number of parameters in the neural net , you haven't increased the size of the neural net , and maybe there 's just {disfmarker} {pause} just not enough {pause} complexity to it to represent {pause} the variab increased variability in the {disfmarker} in the training set . That {disfmarker} that could be . Um {pause} So , what about {disfmarker} So these are results with {pause} uh th {pause} that you 're describing now , that {pause} they are pretty similar for the different features or {disfmarker} {pause} or uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , let me check . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . This was for the PLP ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um . The {disfmarker} Yeah . For the PLP with JRASTA the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} This is quite the same {pause} tendency , {pause} with a slight increase of the error rate , {pause} uh if we go to {disfmarker} to TIMIT . And then it 's {disfmarker} it gets worse with the multilingual . Um . Yeah . There {disfmarker} there is a difference actually with {disfmarker} b between PLP and JRASTA is that {pause} JRASTA {pause} seems to {pause} perform better with the highly mismatched {pause} condition {pause} but slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse {pause} for the well matched condition . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I have a suggestion , actually , even though it 'll delay us slightly , would {disfmarker} would you mind {pause} running into the other room and making {pause} copies of this ? Cuz we 're all sort of {disfmarker} If we c if we could look at it , while we 're talking , I think it 'd be", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} {pause} Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll sing a song or dance or something while you {vocalsound} do it , too .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Go ahead . Ah , while you 're gone I 'll ask s some of my questions .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , this way and just slightly to the left , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The um {disfmarker} What was {disfmarker} Was this number {pause} forty or {disfmarker} It was roughly the same as this one , {pause} he said ? When you had the two language versus the three language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . That 's what he was saying .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's where he removed English ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It sometimes , actually , depends on what features you 're using .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} but i it sounds like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} He {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I mean . That 's interesting because {pause} it {disfmarker} it seems like what it 's saying is not so much that you got hurt {pause} uh because {pause} you {pause} uh didn't have so much representation of English , because in the other case you don't get hurt any more , at least when {pause} it seemed like uh it {disfmarker} it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but you have the same number of parameters representing it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . I wonder {disfmarker} were um all three of these nets {pause} using the same output ? This multi - language {pause} uh labelling ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He was using uh sixty - four phonemes from {pause} SAMPA .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So this would {disfmarker} {pause} From this you would say , \" well , it doesn't really matter if we put Finnish {pause} into {pause} the training of the neural net , {pause} if there 's {pause} gonna be , {pause} you know , Finnish in the test data . \" Right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} it sounds {disfmarker} {pause} I mean , we have to be careful , cuz we haven't gotten a good result yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And comparing different bad results can be {pause} tricky .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {pause} I think it does suggest that it 's not so much uh {pause} uh cross {pause} language as cross type of speech .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But we did {disfmarker} Oh yeah , the other thing I was asking him , though , is that I think that in the case {disfmarker} Yeah , you {disfmarker} you do have to be careful because of com compounded results . I think we got some earlier results {pause} in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you didn't have {pause} three , but you just had one {pause} language . So you trained on {pause} one type of digits and tested on another . Didn - Wasn't there something of that ? Where you , {pause} say , trained on Spanish and tested on {disfmarker} on TI - digits , or the other way around ? Something like that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I thought there was something like that , {pause} that he showed me {pause} last week . We 'll have to wait till we get {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would be interesting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , This may have been what I was asking before , Stephane , but {disfmarker} {pause} but , um , wasn't there something that you did , {pause} where you trained {pause} on one language and tested on another ? I mean no {disfmarker} no mixture but just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I 'll get it for you .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh , no , no .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We 've never just trained on one lang", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Training on a single language , you mean , and testing on the other one ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Not yet .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So the only {pause} task that 's similar to this is the training on two languages , and {comment} that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But we 've done a bunch of things where we just trained on one language . Right ? I mean , you haven't {disfmarker} you haven't done all your tests on multiple languages .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , No . Either thi this is test with {pause} uh the same language {pause} but from the broad data , or it 's test with {pause} uh different languages also from the broad data , excluding the {disfmarker} So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's three or {disfmarker} three and four .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "The early experiment that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Did you do different languages from digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . No . You mean {pause} training digits {pause} on one language and using the net {pause} to recognize on the other ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Digits on another language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "See , I thought you showed me something like that last week . You had a {disfmarker} you had a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , {pause} No , I don't think so .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um What {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "These numbers are uh {pause} ratio to baseline ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , I mean wha what 's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker} this chart {disfmarker} this table that we 're looking at {pause} is um , show is all testing for TI - digits , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Bigger is worse .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you have uh basically two {pause} uh parts .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This is error rate , I think .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Ratio .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No . {pause} No .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "The upper part is for TI - digits", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "and it 's divided in three {pause} rows {pause} of four {disfmarker} four rows each .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And the first four rows is well - matched , then the s the second group of four rows is mismatched , and {pause} finally highly mismatched . And then the lower part is for Italian and it 's the same {disfmarker} {pause} the same thing .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , so the upper part is training {pause} TI - digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the HTK results , I mean . So it 's {pause} HTK training testings {pause} with different kind of features", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and what appears in the {pause} uh left column is {pause} the networks that are used for doing this .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Uh Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , What was is that i What was it that you had {pause} done {pause} last week when you showed {disfmarker} Do you remember ? Wh - when you showed me {pause} the {disfmarker} your table last week ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It - It was part of these results . Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So where is the baseline {pause} for the TI - digits {pause} located in here ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You mean the HTK Aurora baseline ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's uh the one hundred number . It 's , well , all these numbers are the ratio {pause} with respect to the baseline .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah ! Ah , OK , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So this is word {disfmarker} word error rate , so a high number is bad .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is {pause} a word error rate ratio .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "OK , I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So , seventy point two means that {pause} we reduced the error rate uh by thirty {disfmarker} thirty percent .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , OK , gotcha .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , {vocalsound} so if we take", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh um let 's see PLP {pause} uh with on - line {pause} normalization and {pause} delta - del so that 's this thing you have circled here {pause} in the second column ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "um {pause} and \" multi - English \" refers to what ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "To TIMIT . Mmm . Then you have {pause} uh MF , {pause} MS and ME which are for French , Spanish and English . And , yeah . Actually I {disfmarker} {pause} I uh forgot to say that {pause} the multilingual net are trained {pause} on {pause} uh {pause} features without the s derivatives uh but with {pause} increased frame numbers . Mmm . And we can {disfmarker} we can see on the first line of the table that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it 's slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse when we don't use delta but it 's not {disfmarker} {pause} not that much .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So w w So , I 'm sorry . I missed that . What 's MF , MS and ME ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Multi - French , Multi - Spanish", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Multi - French , Multi - Spanish , and Multi - English .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh OK . So , it 's {pause} uh {pause} broader vocabulary . Then {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK so I think what I 'm {disfmarker} what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was {disfmarker} was {pause} there were some numbers I saw , I think , that included these multiple languages and it {disfmarker} and I was seeing {pause} that it got worse . I {disfmarker} I think that was all it was . You had some very limited results that {disfmarker} at that point", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "which showed {pause} having in these {disfmarker} these other languages . In fact it might have been just this last category , {pause} having two languages broad that were {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where English was removed . So that was cross language and the {disfmarker} and the result was quite poor . What I {disfmarker} {pause} we hadn't seen yet was that if you added in the English , it 's still poor .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um now , what 's the noise condition {pause} um {pause} of the training data {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Still poor .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , I think this is what you were explaining . The noise condition is the same {disfmarker} It 's the same uh Aurora noises uh , in all these cases {pause} for the training .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's not a {pause} statistical {disfmarker} sta a strong st {pause} statistically different {pause} noise characteristic between {pause} uh the training and test", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No these are the s s s same noises ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and yet we 're seeing some kind of effect {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah . At least {disfmarker} at least for the first {disfmarker} {pause} for the well - matched ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well matched condition .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's some kind of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an effect from having these {disfmarker} uh this broader coverage um Now I guess what we should try doing with this is try {pause} testing these on u this same sort of thing on {disfmarker} you probably must have this {pause} lined up to do . To try the same t {pause} with the exact same training , do testing on {pause} the other languages .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "On {disfmarker} on um {disfmarker} So . Um , oh I well , wait a minute . You have this here , for the Italian . That 's right . OK , so , {pause} So .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so for the Italian the results are {vocalsound} uh {pause} stranger um {pause} Mmm . So what appears is that perhaps Spanish is {pause} not very close to Italian because uh , well , {pause} when using the {disfmarker} the network trained only on Spanish it 's {disfmarker} {pause} the error rate is {pause} almost uh twice {pause} the baseline error rate .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , let 's see . Is there any difference in {disfmarker} So it 's in {pause} the uh {disfmarker} So you 're saying that {pause} when you train on English {pause} and {pause} uh {pause} and {disfmarker} and test on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , you don't have training on English testing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} another difference , is that the noise {disfmarker} the noises are different .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "In {disfmarker} in what ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , For {disfmarker} for the Italian part I mean the {pause} uh {pause} the um {pause} networks are trained with noise from {pause} Aurora {disfmarker} TI - digits ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Aurora - two .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the noise is different in th", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And perhaps the noise are {pause} quite different from the noises {pause} in the speech that Italian .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Do we have any um {pause} test sets {pause} uh in {pause} any other language that um have the same noise as in {pause} the Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm , no .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Can I ask something real quick ? In {disfmarker} in the upper part {disfmarker} {pause} in the English {pause} stuff , {pause} it looks like the very best number is sixty point nine ? and that 's in the uh {disfmarker} {pause} the third {pause} section in the upper part under PLP JRASTA , sort of the middle column ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I is that {pause} a noisy condition ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So that 's matched training ? Is that what that is ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} no , the third part , so it 's uh {pause} highly mismatched . So . Training and {pause} test noise are different .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} why do you get your best number in {disfmarker} Wouldn't you get your best number in the clean case ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's relative to the um {pause} baseline mismatching", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK so these are not {disfmarker} OK , alright , I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . And then {disfmarker} so , in the {disfmarker} in the um {disfmarker} {pause} in the {pause} non - mismatched clean case , {pause} your best one was under MFCC ? That sixty - one point four ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . {pause} But it 's not a clean case . It 's {pause} a noisy case but {pause} uh training and test noises are the same .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh ! So this upper third ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh that 's still noisy ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's always noisy basically ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and , {pause} well , the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ? Um {pause} So uh , I think this will take some {pause} looking at , thinking about . But , {pause} what is uh {disfmarker} what is currently running , that 's {disfmarker} uh , i that {disfmarker} just filling in the holes here or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} ? {comment} {pause} pretty much ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no we don't plan to fill the holes", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but {pause} actually there is something important , is that {pause} um we made a lot of assumption concerning the on - line normalization and we just noticed {pause} uh recently that {pause} uh the {pause} approach that we were using {pause} was not {pause} uh {pause} leading to very good results {pause} when we {pause} used the straight features to HTK . Um {pause} {pause} Mmm . So basically d {pause} if you look at the {disfmarker} at the left of the table , {pause} the first uh row , {pause} with eighty - six , one hundred , and forty - three and seventy - five , these are the results we obtained for Italian {pause} uh with {pause} straight {pause} mmm , PLP features {pause} using on - line normalization .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . And the , mmm {disfmarker} what 's {pause} in the table , just {pause} at the left of the PLP twelve {pause} on - line normalization column , so , the numbers seventy - nine , fifty - four and {pause} uh forty - two {pause} are the results obtained by uh Pratibha with {pause} uh his on - line normalization {disfmarker} uh her on - line normalization approach .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Where is that ? seventy - nine , fifty", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , it 's just sort of sitting right on the uh {disfmarker} the column line .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Fifty - one ? This {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Oh I see , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} uh Yeah . So these are the results of {pause} OGI with {pause} on - line normalization and straight features to HTK . And the previous result , eighty - six and so on , {pause} are with our {pause} features straight to HTK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So {pause} what we see that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} there is that um {pause} uh the way we were doing this was not correct , but {pause} still {pause} the networks {pause} are very good . When we use the networks {pause} our number are better that {pause} uh Pratibha results .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We improve .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So , do you know what was wrong with the on - line normalization , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . There were diff there were different things and {pause} basically , {pause} the first thing is the mmm , {pause} alpha uh {pause} value . So , the recursion {pause} uh {pause} part . um , {pause} I used point five percent , {pause} which was the default value in the {disfmarker} {pause} in the programs here . And Pratibha used five percent .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So it adapts more {pause} quickly", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um , but , yeah . I assume that this was not important because {pause} uh previous results from {disfmarker} from Dan and {disfmarker} show that basically {pause} the {pause} both {disfmarker} both values g give the same {disfmarker} same {pause} uh results . It was true on uh {pause} TI - digits but it 's not true on Italian .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , second thing is the initialization of the {pause} stuff . Actually , {pause} uh what we were doing is to start the recursion from the beginning of the {pause} utterance . And using initial values that are the global mean and variances {pause} measured across the whole database .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And Pratibha did something different is that he {disfmarker} uh she initialed the um values of the mean and variance {pause} by computing {pause} this on the {pause} twenty - five first frames of each utterance . Mmm . There were other minor differences , the fact that {pause} she used fifteen dissities instead s instead of thirteen , and that she used C - zero instead of log energy . Uh , but the main differences concerns the recursion . So . {pause} Uh , I changed the code uh and now we have a baseline that 's similar to the OGI baseline .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's slightly {pause} uh different because {pause} I don't exactly initialize the same way she does . Actually I start , {pause} mmm , I don't wait to a fifteen {disfmarker} twenty - five {disfmarker} twenty - five frames {pause} before computing a mean and the variance {pause} to e to {disfmarker} to start the recursion .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I use the on - line scheme and only start the re recursion after the twenty - five {disfmarker} {pause} twenty - fifth frame . But , well it 's similar . So {pause} uh I retrained {pause} the networks with {pause} these {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the networks are retaining with these new {pause} features .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So basically what I expect is that {pause} these numbers will a little bit go down but {pause} perhaps not {disfmarker} not so much", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because {pause} I think the neural networks learn perhaps {pause} to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "even if the features are not {pause} normalized . It {disfmarker} it will learn how to normalize and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , but I think that {pause} given the pressure of time we probably want to draw {disfmarker} because of that {pause} especially , we wanna draw some conclusions from this , do some reductions {pause} in what we 're looking at ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and make some strong decisions for what we 're gonna do testing on before next week . So do you {disfmarker} are you {disfmarker} w did you have something going on , on the side , with uh multi - band {pause} or {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on this ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} I", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No , I {disfmarker} we plan to start this uh so , act actually we have discussed uh {pause} @ @ um , these {disfmarker} what we could do {pause} more as a {disfmarker} as a research and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we were thinking perhaps that {pause} uh {pause} the way we use the tandem is not {disfmarker} Uh , well , there is basically perhaps a flaw in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the stuff because {pause} we {pause} trained the networks {disfmarker} If we trained the networks on the {disfmarker} on {pause} a language and a t or a specific {pause} task ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um , what we ask is {disfmarker} to the network {disfmarker} is to put the bound the decision boundaries somewhere in the space .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And uh {pause} mmm and ask the network to put one , {pause} at one side of the {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a particular phoneme at one side of the boundary {disfmarker} decision boundary and one for another phoneme at the other side . And {pause} so there is kind of reduction of the information there that 's not correct because if we change task {pause} and if the phonemes are not in the same context in the new task , {pause} obviously the {pause} decision boundaries are not {disfmarker} {pause} should not be at the same {pause} place .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I di", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But the way the feature gives {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the way the network gives the features is that it reduce completely the {disfmarker} {pause} it removes completely the information {disfmarker} {pause} a lot of information from the {disfmarker} the features {pause} by uh {pause} uh {pause} placing the decision boundaries at {pause} optimal places for {pause} one kind of {pause} data but {pause} this is not the case for another kind of data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's a trade - off ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ? Any - anyway go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . So uh what we were thinking about is perhaps {pause} um one way {pause} to solve this problem is increase the number of {pause} outputs of the neural networks . Doing something like , um {pause} um phonemes within context and , well , basically context dependent phonemes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Maybe . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think {pause} you could make {pause} the same argument , it 'd be just as legitimate , {pause} for hybrid systems {pause} as well . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah but , we know that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And in fact , {pause} th things get better with context dependent {pause} versions . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye - yeah but here it 's something different . We want to have features", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh well , {pause} um .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it 's still true {pause} that what you 're doing {pause} is you 're ignoring {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're coming up with something to represent , {pause} whether it 's a distribution , {pause} probability distribution or features , you 're coming up with a set of variables {pause} that are representing {pause} uh , {pause} things that vary w over context .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , and you 're {pause} putting it all together , ignoring the differences in context . That {disfmarker} that 's true {pause} for the hybrid system , it 's true for a tandem system . So , for that reason , when you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a hybrid system , {pause} when you incorporate context one way or another , {pause} you do get better scores .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ? But I {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a big deal {pause} to get that . I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of {disfmarker} And once you {disfmarker} the other thing is that once you represent {disfmarker} start representing more and more context {pause} it is {pause} uh {pause} much more {pause} um specific {pause} to a particular task in language . So um Uh , the {disfmarker} {pause} the acoustics associated with {pause} uh a particular context , for instance you may have some kinds of contexts that will never occur {pause} in one language and will occur frequently in the other , so the qu the issue of getting enough training {pause} for a particular kind of context becomes harder . We already actually don't have a huge amount of training data um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} mmm , I mean , {pause} the {disfmarker} the way we {disfmarker} we do it now is that we have a neural network and {pause} basically {pause} the net network is trained almost to give binary decisions .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And {pause} uh {disfmarker} binary decisions about phonemes . Nnn {disfmarker} Uh It 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Almost . But I mean it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does give a distribution .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {pause} it is true that if there 's two phones that are very similar , {pause} that {pause} uh {pause} the {disfmarker} {pause} i it may prefer one but it will {pause} give a reasonably high value to the other , too .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , sure but uh {pause} So basically it 's almost binary decisions and {pause} um the idea of using more {pause} classes is {pause} to {pause} get something that 's {pause} less binary decisions .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh no , but it would still be even more of a binary decision . It {disfmarker} it 'd be even more of one . Because then you would say {pause} that in {disfmarker} that this phone in this context is a one , {pause} but the same phone in a slightly different context is a zero .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "That would be even {disfmarker} even more distinct of a binary decision . I actually would have thought you 'd wanna go the other way and have fewer classes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , I mean for instance , the {disfmarker} the thing I was arguing for before , but again which I don't think we have time to try , {pause} is something in which you would modify the code so you could train to have several outputs on and use articulatory features", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "cuz then that would {disfmarker} that would go {disfmarker} {pause} that would be much broader and cover many different situations . But if you go to very very fine categories , it 's very {pause} binary .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah , perhaps you 're right , but you have more classes so {pause} you {disfmarker} you have more information in your features . So , {vocalsound} Um {pause} You have more information in the {pause} uh", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . True .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "posteriors vector um which means that {disfmarker} But still the information is relevant", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it 's information that helps to discriminate ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it 's possible to be able to discriminate {pause} among the phonemes in context .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's an interesting thought .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean we {disfmarker} we could disagree about it at length", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but the {disfmarker} the real thing is if you 're interested in it you 'll probably try it", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we 'll see . But {disfmarker} but what I 'm more concerned with now , as an operational level , is {pause} uh , you know ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "what do we do in four or five days ? Uh , and {disfmarker} {pause} so we have {pause} to be concerned {pause} with Are we gonna look at any combinations of things , you know once the nets get retrained so you have this problem out of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , are we going to look at {pause} multi - band ? Are we gonna look at combinations of things ? Uh , what questions are we gonna ask , uh now that , I mean , {pause} we should probably turn shortly to this O G I note . Um , how are we going to {pause} combine {pause} with what they 've been focusing on ? Uh , {pause} Uh we haven't been doing any of the L D A RASTA sort of thing .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And they , although they don't talk about it in this note , um , {pause} there 's um , {pause} the issue of the {pause} um Mu law {pause} business {pause} uh {pause} versus the logarithm , um , {pause} so .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So what i what is going on right now ? What 's right {disfmarker} you 've got {pause} nets retraining , Are there {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any H T K {pause} trainings {disfmarker} testings going on ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "N", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm trying the HTK with eh , {pause} PLP twelve on - line delta - delta and MSG filter {pause} together .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "The combination , I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The combination , yeah . But I haven't result {vocalsound} at this moment .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "MSG and {disfmarker} and PLP .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . ", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "And is this with the revised {pause} on - line normalization ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye - Uh , with the old {pause} older ,", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Old one . So it 's using all the nets for that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "but again we have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} We have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} maybe it 's not making too much difference ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {pause} We can know soon .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh so there is this combination , yeah . Working on combination obviously .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Um , I will start work on multi - band . And {pause} we {pause} plan to work also on the idea of using both {pause} features {pause} and net outputs .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Um . And {pause} we think that {pause} with this approach perhaps {pause} we could reduce the number of outputs of the neural network . Um , So , get simpler networks , because we still have the features . So we have um {pause} come up with um {pause} different kind of {pause} broad phonetic categories . And we have {disfmarker} Basically we have three {pause} types of broad phonetic classes . Well , something using place of articulation which {disfmarker} which leads to {pause} nine , I think , {pause} broad classes . Uh , another which is based on manner , which is {disfmarker} is also something like nine classes . And then , {pause} something that combine both , and we have {pause} twenty f {pause} twenty - five ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Twenty - seven .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Twenty - seven broad classes . So like , uh , oh , I don't know , like back vowels , front vowels .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So what you do {disfmarker} um I just wanna understand", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um For the moments we do not {disfmarker} don't have nets ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so {pause} You have two net or three nets ? Was this ? How many {disfmarker} how many nets do you have ? No nets .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean , {pause} It 's just {disfmarker} Were we just changing {pause} the labels to retrain nets {pause} with fewer out outputs .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Begin to work in this . We are @ @ .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Right . But {disfmarker} but I didn't understand {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} the software currently just has {disfmarker} uh a {disfmarker} allows for I think , the one {disfmarker} one hot output . So you 're having multiple nets and combining them , or {disfmarker} ? Uh , how are you {disfmarker} how are you coming up with {disfmarker} If you say {pause} uh {pause} If you have a place {pause} characteristic and a manner characteristic , how do you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It - It 's the single net ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I think they have one output .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's just one net .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's one net with {pause} um {pause} twenty - seven outputs", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "if we have twenty - seven classes ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I see . I see , OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's basically a standard net with fewer {pause} classes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So you 're sort of going the other way of what you were saying a bit ago instead of {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah . B b including the features , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But including the features .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I don't think this {pause} will work {pause} alone . I think it will get worse because Well , I believe the effect that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of too reducing too much the information is {pause} basically {disfmarker} basically what happens", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But you think if you include that {pause} plus the other features ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah , because {pause} there is perhaps one important thing that the net {pause} brings , and OGI show showed that , is {pause} the distinction between {pause} sp speech and silence Because these nets are trained on well - controlled condition . I mean the labels are obtained on clean speech , and we add noise after . So this is one thing And But perhaps , something intermediary using also {pause} some broad classes could {disfmarker} could bring so much more information . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so again then we have these broad classes and {disfmarker} well , somewhat broad . I mean , it 's twenty - seven instead of sixty - four , {pause} basically . And you have the original features .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Which are PLP , or something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And then uh , just to remind me , all of that goes {pause} into {disfmarker} uh , that all of that is transformed by uh , uh , K - KL or something , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . There will probably be ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mu .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "yeah , one single KL to transform everything", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or {vocalsound} {pause} uh ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No transform the PLP", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "per", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and only transform the other I 'm not sure .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Well no ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "This is {pause} still something {pause} that", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah , we {pause} don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's a question of whether you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two e @ @ it 's one .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . Whether you would transform together or just one . Yeah . Might wanna try it both ways . But that 's interesting . So that 's something that you 're {disfmarker} you haven't trained yet but are preparing to train , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um {pause} {pause} Yeah , so I think Hynek will be here Monday .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": " Monday or Tuesday . So", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I think , you know , we need to {pause} choose the {disfmarker} choose the experiments carefully , so we can get uh key {disfmarker} {pause} key questions answered {pause} uh before then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and {pause} leave other ones aside even if it {pause} leaves incomplete {pause} tables {vocalsound} {pause} someplace , uh {pause} uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really time to {disfmarker} {pause} time to choose .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , let me pass this out , {pause} by the way . Um These are {disfmarker} Did {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} {pause} did I interrupt you ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have one .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Were there other things that you wanted to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no . I don't think so .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , thanks .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Ah ! {pause} OK . {pause} OK , we have {pause} lots of them .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We have one . ", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "OK , so {vocalsound} um , Something I asked {disfmarker} So they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing {pause} the {disfmarker} the VAD I guess they mean voice activity detection So again , it 's the silence {disfmarker} So they 've just trained up a net {pause} which has two outputs , I believe . Um {vocalsound} I asked uh {pause} Hynek whether {disfmarker} I haven't talked to Sunil {disfmarker} I asked Hynek whether {pause} they compared that to {pause} just taking the nets we already had {pause} and summing up the probabilities .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} To get the speech {disfmarker} voice activity detection , or else just using the silence , {pause} if there 's only one {pause} silence output . Um {pause} And , he didn't think they had , um . But on the other hand , maybe they can get by with a smaller net and {pause} maybe {pause} sometimes you don't run the other , maybe there 's a computational advantage to having a separate net , anyway .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So um Their uh {disfmarker} {pause} the results look pretty good . Um , {pause} I mean , not uniformly .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , there 's a {disfmarker} an example or two {pause} that you can find , where it made it slightly worse , but {pause} uh in {disfmarker} in all but a couple {pause} examples .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But they have a question of the result . Um how are trained the {disfmarker} the LDA filter ? How obtained the LDA filter ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I I 'm sorry . I don't understand your question .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes , um the LDA filter {pause} needs some {pause} training set {pause} to obtain the filter . Maybe I don't know exactly how {pause} they are obtained .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It 's on {pause} training .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Training , with the training test of each {disfmarker} You understand me ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh for example , {pause} LDA filter {pause} need a set of {disfmarker} {pause} a set of training {pause} to obtain the filter .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And maybe {pause} for the Italian , for the TD {pause} TE on for Finnish , these filter are {disfmarker} are obtained with their own training set .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes , I don't know . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} so that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very good question , then {disfmarker} now that it {disfmarker} {pause} I understand it . It 's \" yeah , where does the LDA come from ? \" In the {disfmarker} In {pause} earlier experiments , they had taken LDA {pause} from a completely different database , right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , because maybe it the same situation that the neural network training with their own", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "set .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So that 's a good question . Where does it come from ? Yeah , I don't know . Um , {pause} but uh to tell you the {pause} truth , I wasn't actually looking at the LDA so much when I {disfmarker} I was looking at it I was {pause} mostly thinking about the {disfmarker} {pause} the VAD . And um , it ap {pause} it ap Oh what does {disfmarker} what does ASP ? Oh that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The features , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't understand also", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It says \" baseline ASP \" .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "what is {disfmarker} {pause} what is the difference between ASP and uh baseline over ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "ASP .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Anybody know {pause} any {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh . There it is .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um Cuz there 's \" baseline Aurora \" {pause} above it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And it 's {disfmarker} This is mostly better than baseline , although in some cases it 's a little worse , in a couple cases .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , it says baseline ASP is twenty - three mill {pause} minus thirteen .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , it says what it is . But I don't how that 's different {pause} from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "From the baseline . {comment} OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I think this was {disfmarker} {pause} I think this is the same point we were at when {disfmarker} when we were up in Oregon .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} {pause} I think it 's the C - zero {disfmarker} using C - zero instead of log energy .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah , OK , mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's this .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh . OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It should be that , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "They s they say in here that the VAD is not used as an additional feature .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Shouldn't it be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Does {disfmarker} does anybody know how they 're using it ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker} so what they 're doing here is , {pause} i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "if you look down at the block diagram , {pause} um , {pause} they estimate {disfmarker} they get a {disfmarker} {pause} they get an estimate {pause} of whether it 's speech or silence ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then they have a median filter of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And so um , {pause} basically they 're trying to find stretches . The median filter is enforcing a {disfmarker} i it having some continuity .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You find stretches where the {pause} combination of the {pause} frame wise VAD and the {disfmarker} {pause} the median filter say that there 's a stretch of silence . And then it 's going through and just throwing the data away .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't understand . You mean it 's throwing out frames ? Before {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's throwing out chunks of frames , yeah . There 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the median filter is enforcing that it 's not gonna be single cases of frames , or isolated frames .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's throwing out frames and the thing is {pause} um , {pause} what I don't understand is how they 're doing this with H T", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's what I was just gonna ask .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "How can you just throw out frames ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , you {disfmarker} you can ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "i", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ? I mean y you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "it stretches again . For single frames I think it would be pretty hard .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But if you say speech starts here , speech ends there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , you can basically remove the {disfmarker} the frames from the feature {disfmarker} feature files .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so I mean in the {disfmarker} i i in the {disfmarker} in the decoding , you 're saying that we 're gonna decode from here to here .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I t", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're treating it , {pause} you know , like uh {disfmarker} well , it 's not isolated word , but {disfmarker} but connected , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "In the text they say that this {disfmarker} this is a tentative block diagram of a possible configuration we could think of . So that sort of sounds like they 're not doing that yet .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well . {pause} No they {disfmarker} they have numbers though , right ? So I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing something like that . I think that they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} I think what I mean by tha that is they 're trying to come up with a block diagram that 's plausible for the standard . In other words , it 's {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean from the point of view of {disfmarker} of uh reducing the number of bits you have to transmit it 's not a bad idea to detect silence anyway .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I 'm just wondering what exactly did they do up in this table if it wasn't this .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . But it 's {disfmarker} the thing is it 's that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Certainly it would be tricky about it intrans in transmitting voice , {pause} uh uh for listening to , is that these kinds of things {pause} uh cut {pause} speech off a lot .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right ? And so {pause} um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Plus it 's gonna introduce delays .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It does introduce delays but they 're claiming that it 's {disfmarker} it 's within the {disfmarker} {pause} the boundaries of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And the LDA introduces delays , and b {pause} what he 's suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it doesn't introduce {pause} uh , any more delay . I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same {pause} time the LDA {pause} down here {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} Wh what 's the difference between TLDA and SLDA ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Temporal and spectral .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah , thank you .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Temporal LDA .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , you would know that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So um . The temporal LDA does in fact include the same {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} I think he {disfmarker} well , by {disfmarker} by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means {pause} if you construct it this way , this {disfmarker} this delay would work in that way", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then it 'd be OK . They {disfmarker} they clearly did actually remove {pause} silent sections in order {disfmarker} because they {pause} got these {pause} word error rate {pause} results . So um I think that it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to do that in this because in fact , it 's gonna give a better word error result and therefore will help within an evaluation . Whereas to whether this would actually be in a final standard , I don't know . Um . Uh , as you know , part of the problem with evaluation right now is that the {pause} word models are pretty bad and nobody wants {disfmarker} {pause} has {disfmarker} has approached improving them . So {pause} it 's possible that a lot of the problems {pause} with so many insertions and so forth would go away if they were better word models {pause} to begin with . So {pause} this might just be a temporary thing . But {disfmarker} But , on the other hand , and maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's a decent idea . So um The question we 're gonna wanna go {pause} through next week when Hynek shows up I guess is given that we 've been {disfmarker} if you look at what we 've been trying , we 're uh looking at {pause} uh , by then I guess , combinations of features and multi - band Uh , and we 've been looking at {pause} cross - language , cross {pause} task {pause} issues . And they 've been not so much looking at {pause} the cross task uh multiple language issues . But they 've been looking at uh {disfmarker} {pause} at these issues . At the on - line normalization and the uh {pause} voice activity detection . And I guess when he comes here we 're gonna have to start deciding about {pause} um what do we choose {pause} from what we 've looked at {pause} to um blend with {pause} some group of things in what they 've looked at And once we choose that , {pause} how do we split up the {pause} effort ? Uh , because we still have {disfmarker} even once we choose , {pause} we 've still got {pause} uh another {pause} month or so , I mean there 's holidays in the way , but {disfmarker} but uh {pause} I think the evaluation data comes January thirty - first so there 's still a fair amount of time {pause} to do things together it 's just that they probably should be somewhat more coherent between the two sites {pause} in that {disfmarker} that amount of time .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "When they removed the silence frames , did they insert some kind of a marker so that the recognizer knows it 's {disfmarker} {pause} knows when it 's time to back trace or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , see they , I {disfmarker} I think they 're Um . I don't know the {disfmarker} {pause} the specifics of how they 're doing it . They 're {disfmarker} {pause} they 're getting around the way the recognizer works because they 're not allowed to {pause} um , change the scripts {pause} for the recognizer , {pause} I believe .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , right . Maybe they 're just inserting some nummy frames or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Uh . Uh , you know that 's what I had thought . But I don't {disfmarker} I don't think they are .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean that 's {disfmarker} sort of what {disfmarker} the way I had imagined would happen is that on the other side , yeah you p put some low level noise or something . Probably don't want all zeros .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Most recognizers don't like zeros but {vocalsound} but {pause} you know , {pause} put some epsilon in or some rand", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "sorry epsilon random variable {pause} in or something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Some constant vector . I mean i w Or something {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Maybe not a constant but it doesn't , uh {disfmarker} don't like to divide by the variance of that , but I mean it 's", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's right . But something that {disfmarker} what I mean is something that is {pause} very distinguishable from {pause} speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So that the {disfmarker} the silence model in HTK will always pick it up .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} that 's what I thought they would do . or else , uh {pause} uh maybe there is some indicator to tell it to start and stop , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But whatever they did , I mean they have to play within the rules of this specific evaluation .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We c we can find out .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Cuz you gotta do something . Otherwise , if it 's just a bunch of speech , stuck together {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No they 're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It would do badly", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and it didn't so badly , right ? So they did something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh . So , OK , So I think {pause} this brings me up to date a bit . It hopefully brings other {pause} people up to date a bit . And um Um {pause} I think {disfmarker} Uh , I wanna look at these numbers off - line a little bit and think about it and {disfmarker} {pause} and talk with everybody uh , {pause} outside of this meeting . Um , but uh No I mean it sounds like {disfmarker} I mean {pause} there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there are the usual number of {disfmarker} of {pause} little {disfmarker} little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they 're getting ironed out . And now we 're {pause} seem to be kind of in a position to actually {pause} uh , {pause} look at stuff and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and compare things . So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty good . Um {pause} I don't know what the {disfmarker} One of the things I wonder about , {pause} coming back to the first results you talked about , is {disfmarker} is {pause} how much , {pause} uh {pause} things could be helped {pause} by more parameters . And uh {disfmarker} {pause} And uh how many more parameters we can afford to have , {vocalsound} {pause} in terms of the uh computational limits . Because anyway when we go to {pause} twice as much data {pause} and have the same number of parameters , particularly when it 's twice as much data and it 's quite diverse , um , I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , just have a bigger hidden layer . Uh But {disfmarker} I doubt it would {pause} help by forty per cent . But {vocalsound} {pause} but uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Just curious . How are we doing on the {pause} resources ? Disk , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think we 're alright ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um , {pause} not much problems with that .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Computation ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well this table took uh {pause} more than five days to get back .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , well .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Are {disfmarker} were you folks using Gin ? That 's a {disfmarker} that just died , you know ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm , no . You were using Gin {comment} perhaps , yeah ? No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No ? Oh , that 's good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It just died .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , {pause} we 're gonna get a replacement {pause} server that 'll be a faster server , {pause} actually .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} It 's a {pause} seven hundred fifty megahertz uh SUN", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm . {comment} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {pause} But it won't be installed for {pause} a little while .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Tonic .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "U Go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Do we {disfmarker} Do we have that big new IBM machine the , I think in th", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "We have the {pause} little tiny IBM machine {vocalsound} {pause} that might someday grow up to be a big {pause} IBM machine . It 's got s slots for eight , uh IBM was donating five , I think we only got two so far , processors . We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors . They ended up being five fifty . So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz , we ended up with two {pause} that are five hundred and fifty megahertz . And more are supposed to come soon and there 's only a moderate amount of dat of memory . So I don't think {pause} anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to {pause} spend much time {pause} uh {pause} with it , but uh {vocalsound} Hopefully , {pause} they 'll get us some more {pause} parts , soon and {disfmarker} Uh , yeah , I think that 'll be {disfmarker} once we get it populated , {pause} that 'll be a nice machine . I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there . And uh {disfmarker} and uh a nice amount of memory . Uh so it 'll be a pr pretty fast Linux machine .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And if we can do things on Linux , {pause} some of the machines we have going already , like Swede ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um It seems pretty fast .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I think Fudge is pretty fast too .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean you can check with uh {pause} Dave Johnson . I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} I think the machine is just sitting there . And it does have two processors , you know and {disfmarker} {pause} Somebody could do {disfmarker} {pause} you know , uh , check out {pause} uh the multi - threading {pause} libraries . And {pause} I mean i it 's possible that the {disfmarker} I mean , I guess the prudent thing to do would be for somebody to do the work on {disfmarker} {pause} on getting our code running {pause} on that machine with two processors {pause} even though there aren't five or eight . There 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's gonna be debugging hassles and then we 'd be set for when we did have five or eight , to have it really be useful . But . {pause} Notice how I said somebody and {vocalsound} turned my head your direction . That 's one thing you don't get in these recordings . You don't get the {disfmarker} {pause} don't get the visuals but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I is it um {pause} mostly um the neural network trainings that are {pause} um slowing us down or the HTK runs that are slowing us down ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Uh , I think yes . Uh , {vocalsound} Isn't that right ? I mean I think you 're {disfmarker} you 're sort of held up by both , right ? If the {disfmarker} if the neural net trainings were a hundred times faster {pause} you still wouldn't {pause} be anything {disfmarker} running through these a hundred times faster because you 'd {pause} be stuck by the HTK trainings ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But if the HTK {disfmarker} I mean I think they 're both {disfmarker} It sounded like they were roughly equal ? Is that about right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Because , um {pause} I think that 'll be running Linux , and Sw - Swede and Fudge are already running Linux so , {pause} um I could try to get {pause} um the train the neural network trainings or the HTK stuff running under Linux , and to start with I 'm {pause} wondering which one I should pick first .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Uh , probably the neural net cuz it 's probably {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's um {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . They both {disfmarker} HTK we use for {pause} um {pause} this Aurora stuff Um {pause} Um , I think {pause} It 's not clear yet what we 're gonna use {pause} for trainings uh {disfmarker} Well , {pause} there 's the trainings uh {disfmarker} is it the training that takes the time , or the decoding ? Uh , is it about equal {pause} between the two ? For {disfmarker} for Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "For HTK ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "For {disfmarker} Yeah . For the Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh Training is longer .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . Well , I don't know how we can {disfmarker} I don't know how to {disfmarker} Do we have HTK source ? Is that {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You would think that would fairly trivially {disfmarker} the training would , anyway , th the testing {pause} uh I don't {disfmarker} I don't {pause} think would {pause} parallelize all that well . But I think {pause} that {pause} you could {pause} certainly do d um , {pause} distributed , sort of {disfmarker} {pause} Ah , no , it 's the {disfmarker} {pause} each individual {pause} sentence is pretty tricky to parallelize . But you could split up the sentences in a test set .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "They have a {disfmarker} they have a thing for doing that and th they have for awhile , in H T And you can parallelize the training .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And run it on several machines", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Aha !", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and it just basically keeps counts . And there 's something {disfmarker} {pause} a final {pause} thing that you run and it accumulates all the counts together .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't what their scripts are {pause} set up to do for the Aurora stuff , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Something that we haven't really settled on yet is other than {pause} this Aurora stuff , {pause} uh what do we do , large vocabulary {pause} training slash testing {pause} for uh tandem systems . Cuz we hadn't really done much with tandem systems for larger stuff . Cuz we had this one collaboration with CMU and we used SPHINX . Uh , we 're also gonna be collaborating with SRI and we have their {disfmarker} have theirs . Um {pause} So {pause} I don't know Um . So I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} the advantage of going with the neural net thing is that we 're gonna use the neural net trainings , no matter what , for a lot of the things we 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "whereas , w exactly which HMM {disfmarker} Gaussian - mixture - based HMM thing we use is gonna depend uh So with that , maybe we should uh {vocalsound} go to our {nonvocalsound} digit recitation task . And , it 's about eleven fifty . Canned . Uh , I can {disfmarker} I can start over here . Great , uh , could you give Adam a call . Tell him to He 's at two nine seven seven .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . I think we can {vocalsound} @ @ You know Herve 's coming tomorrow , right ? Herve will be giving a talk , yeah , talk at eleven . Did uh , did everybody sign these consent Er everybody Has everyone signed a consent form before , on previous meetings ? You don't have to do it again each time Yes . microphones off", "speaker": "Professor B" } ]

[ { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I think I 'm zero .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wow ! Unprecedented .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hello , hello , hello , hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Wh - what causes the crash ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Did you fix something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Five , five .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Hello , hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe it 's the turning {disfmarker} turning off and turning on of the mike , right ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh , you think that 's you ? Oh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Aaa - aaa - aaa .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , mine 's working .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . That 's me .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . OK . So , um I guess we are {pause} um {pause} gonna do the digits at the end . Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Channel {disfmarker} channel three , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Channel two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm , channel five ? Doesn't work ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's the mike number there , uh {pause} Uh , mike number five , and {pause} channel {disfmarker} channel four .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is it written on her sheet , I believe .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No ? Ah ,", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mike four .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Watch this .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "era el cuatro .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yep , that 's me .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "But , channel", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "This is you .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . I saw that . Ah {disfmarker} yeah , it 's OK .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah . And I 'm channel uh two I think ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ooo .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "or channel {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think I 'm channel two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , I 'm channel {disfmarker} must be channel one . Channel one ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Channel {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I decided to talk about that .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes , OK . OK . So uh {pause} I also copied uh the results that we all got in the mail I think from uh {disfmarker} {pause} from OGI and we 'll go {disfmarker} go through them also . So where are we on {disfmarker} {pause} on uh {vocalsound} {pause} our runs ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh so . {pause} uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} So {pause} As I was already said , we {disfmarker} we mainly focused on uh four kind of features .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Excuse me .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The PLP , the PLP with JRASTA , the MSG , and the MFCC from the baseline Aurora .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , and we focused for the {disfmarker} the test part on the English and the Italian . Um . We 've trained uh several neural networks on {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on the TI - digits English {pause} and on the Italian data and also on the broad uh {pause} English uh French and uh Spanish databases . Mmm , so there 's our result tables here , for the tandem approach , and um , actually what we {disfmarker} we @ @ observed is that if the network is trained on the task data it works pretty well .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . Our {disfmarker} our uh {disfmarker} {pause} There 's a {disfmarker} {pause} We 're pausing for a photo {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Chicken on the grill . Try that corner .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "How about over th from the front of the room ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's longer .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "We 're pausing for a photo opportunity here . Uh . {vocalsound} Uh . So .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh wait wait wait wait wait . Wait .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Get out of the {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hold on . Hold on .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Let me give you a black screen .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "He 's facing this way . What ? OK , this {disfmarker} this would be a {pause} good section for our silence detection .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um Oh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Musical chairs everybody !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . So um , {pause} you were saying {pause} about the training data {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , so if the network is trained on the task data um {pause} tandem works pretty well . And uh actually we have uh , results are similar Only on ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Do you mean if it 's trained only on {disfmarker} On data from just that task ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "that language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Just that task . But actually we didn't train network on {pause} uh both types of data I mean {pause} uh {pause} phonetically ba phonetically balanced uh data and task data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We only did either task {disfmarker} task data or {pause} uh broad {pause} data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um {pause} Yeah . So ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So how {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} clearly it 's gonna be good then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So what 's th", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but the question is how much {pause} worse is it {pause} if you have broad data ? I mean , {pause} my assump From what I saw from the earlier results , uh I guess last week , {pause} was that um , {pause} if you {pause} trained on one language and tested on another , say , that {pause} the results were {disfmarker} were relatively poor .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but the question is if you train on one language {pause} but you have a broad coverage {pause} and then test in another , {pause} does that {disfmarker} {pause} is that improve things {pause} i c in comparison ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If we use the same language ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , no , no . Different lang So {pause} um {pause} If you train on TI - digits {pause} and test on Italian digits , {pause} you do poorly , {pause} let 's say .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't have the numbers in front of me ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah but I did not uh do that .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so I 'm just imagining . E So , you didn't train on {pause} TIMIT and test on {disfmarker} {pause} on Italian digits , say ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} No , we did four {disfmarker} four kind of {disfmarker} of testing , actually . The first testing is {pause} with task data {disfmarker} So , with nets trained on task data . So for Italian on the Italian speech @ @ . The second test is trained on a single language um with broad database , but the same language as the t task data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But for Italian we choose Spanish which {pause} we assume is close to Italian . The third test is by using , um the three language database", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "W which in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and the fourth is", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It has three languages . That 's including the w the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "This includes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "the one that it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "In", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {pause} not digits . I mean it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "The three languages {pause} is not digits ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "it 's the broad {pause} data . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah And the fourth test is uh {pause} excluding from these three languages the language {pause} that is {pause} the task language .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK , yeah , so , that is what I wanted to know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I just wasn't saying it very well , I guess .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah . So um {pause} for uh TI - digits for ins example {pause} uh when we go from TI - digits training to {pause} TIMIT training {pause} uh we lose {pause} uh around ten percent , uh . The error rate increase u of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of ten percent , relative .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Relative . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So this is not so bad . And then when we jump to the multilingual data it 's uh it become worse and , well Around uh , let 's say , {pause} twenty perc twenty percent further .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ab - about how much ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Twenty percent further ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Twenty to {disfmarker} to thirty percent further . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And so , remind me , the multilingual stuff is just the broad data . Right ? It 's not the digits .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So it 's the combination of {pause} two things there . It 's {pause} removing the {pause} task specific {pause} training and {pause} it 's adding other languages .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But the first step is al already removing the task s specific from {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Already , right right right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So they were sort of building {pause} here ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And we lose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh {pause} So , basically when it 's trained on the {disfmarker} the multilingual broad data {pause} um or number {disfmarker} so , the {disfmarker} the {pause} ratio of our error rates uh with the {pause} baseline error rate is around {pause} uh one point one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} And it 's something like one point three of {disfmarker} of the {pause} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I i if you compare everything to the first case at the baseline , you get something like one point one for the {disfmarker} for the using the same language but a different task , and something like one point three {pause} for three {disfmarker} three languages {pause} broad stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No no no . Uh same language we are at uh {disfmarker} for at English at O point eight . So it improves , {pause} compared to the baseline . But {disfmarker} So . Le - let me .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Tas - task data", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I meant something different by baseline", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "we are u Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So let me {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} Um , {pause} so , {pause} um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , fine . Let 's {disfmarker} let 's use the conventional meaning of baseline .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} By baseline here I meant {pause} uh using the task specific data .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , the f Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {pause} uh , because that 's what you were just doing with this ten percent .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I was just {disfmarker} I just trying to understand that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So if we call {pause} a factor of w just one , just normalized to one , the word error rate {pause} that you have {pause} for using TI - digits as {disfmarker} as {pause} training and TI - digits as test ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh different words , I 'm sure ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {pause} but uh , uh the same {pause} task and so on .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "If we call that \" one \" , {pause} then what you 're saying is {pause} that the word error rate {pause} for the same language but using {pause} uh different training data than you 're testing on , say TIMIT and so forth , {pause} it 's one point one .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , it 's around one point one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . And if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you {pause} do {pause} go to {pause} three languages including the English , {pause} it 's something like one point three . That 's what you were just saying , I think .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye Uh , more actually .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "One point four ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If I {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , it 's an additional thirty percent .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What would you say ? Around one point four", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And if you exclude {pause} English , {pause} from this combination , what 's that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If we exclude English , {pause} um {pause} there is {pause} not much difference with the {pause} data with English .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Aha !", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "That 's interesting . {pause} That 's interesting . Do you see ? Because {disfmarker} Uh ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} No , that {disfmarker} that 's important . So what {disfmarker} what it 's saying here is just that \" yes , there is a reduction {pause} in performance , {pause} when you don't {pause} um {pause} have the s {pause} when you don't have {pause} um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Task data .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wait a minute , th th the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , actually {pause} it 's interesting . So it 's {disfmarker} So when you go to a different task , there 's actually not so {pause} different . It 's when you went to these {disfmarker} So what 's the difference between two and three ? Between the one point one case and the one point four case ? I 'm confused .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's multilingual .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . The only difference it 's {disfmarker} is that it 's multilingual {disfmarker} Um", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Cuz in both {disfmarker} in both {disfmarker} both of those cases , you don't have the same task .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah sure .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So is {disfmarker} is the training data for the {disfmarker} for this one point four case {disfmarker} does it include the training data for the one point one case ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , a fraction of it .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "A part of it , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "How m how much bigger is it ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um {pause} It 's two times ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , um .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "actually ? Yeah . Um . The English data {disfmarker} {pause} No , the multilingual databases are two times the {pause} broad English {pause} data . We just wanted to keep this , w well , not too huge . So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So it 's two times , but it includes the {disfmarker} but it includes the broad English data .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think so . Do you {disfmarker} Uh , Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the broad English data is what you got this one point one {pause} with . So that 's TIMIT basically right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So it 's band - limited TIMIT . This is all eight kilohertz sampling .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Downs Right .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you have band - limited TIMIT , {pause} gave you uh almost as good as a result as using TI - digits {pause} on a TI - digits test . OK ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um {pause} and {pause} um But , {pause} when you add in more training data but keep the neural net the same size , {pause} it {pause} um performs worse on the TI - digits . OK , now all of this is {disfmarker} {pause} This is noisy {pause} TI - digits , I assume ? Both training and test ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Um OK . Well . {pause} We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we may just need to uh {disfmarker} So I mean it 's interesting that h going to a different {disfmarker} different task didn't seem to hurt us that much , and going to a different language um It doesn't seem to matter {disfmarker} The difference between three and four is not particularly great , so that means that {pause} whether you have the language in or not is not such a big deal .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It sounds like um {pause} uh {pause} we may need to have more {pause} of uh things that are similar to a target language or {disfmarker} I mean . {pause} You have the same number of parameters in the neural net , you haven't increased the size of the neural net , and maybe there 's just {disfmarker} {pause} just not enough {pause} complexity to it to represent {pause} the variab increased variability in the {disfmarker} in the training set . That {disfmarker} that could be . Um {pause} So , what about {disfmarker} So these are results with {pause} uh th {pause} that you 're describing now , that {pause} they are pretty similar for the different features or {disfmarker} {pause} or uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , let me check . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . This was for the PLP ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um . The {disfmarker} Yeah . For the PLP with JRASTA the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} This is quite the same {pause} tendency , {pause} with a slight increase of the error rate , {pause} uh if we go to {disfmarker} to TIMIT . And then it 's {disfmarker} it gets worse with the multilingual . Um . Yeah . There {disfmarker} there is a difference actually with {disfmarker} b between PLP and JRASTA is that {pause} JRASTA {pause} seems to {pause} perform better with the highly mismatched {pause} condition {pause} but slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse {pause} for the well matched condition . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I have a suggestion , actually , even though it 'll delay us slightly , would {disfmarker} would you mind {pause} running into the other room and making {pause} copies of this ? Cuz we 're all sort of {disfmarker} If we c if we could look at it , while we 're talking , I think it 'd be", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} {pause} Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll sing a song or dance or something while you {vocalsound} do it , too .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Go ahead . Ah , while you 're gone I 'll ask s some of my questions .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , this way and just slightly to the left , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The um {disfmarker} What was {disfmarker} Was this number {pause} forty or {disfmarker} It was roughly the same as this one , {pause} he said ? When you had the two language versus the three language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . That 's what he was saying .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's where he removed English ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It sometimes , actually , depends on what features you 're using .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} but i it sounds like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} He {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I mean . That 's interesting because {pause} it {disfmarker} it seems like what it 's saying is not so much that you got hurt {pause} uh because {pause} you {pause} uh didn't have so much representation of English , because in the other case you don't get hurt any more , at least when {pause} it seemed like uh it {disfmarker} it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but you have the same number of parameters representing it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . I wonder {disfmarker} were um all three of these nets {pause} using the same output ? This multi - language {pause} uh labelling ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He was using uh sixty - four phonemes from {pause} SAMPA .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So this would {disfmarker} {pause} From this you would say , \" well , it doesn't really matter if we put Finnish {pause} into {pause} the training of the neural net , {pause} if there 's {pause} gonna be , {pause} you know , Finnish in the test data . \" Right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} it sounds {disfmarker} {pause} I mean , we have to be careful , cuz we haven't gotten a good result yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And comparing different bad results can be {pause} tricky .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {pause} I think it does suggest that it 's not so much uh {pause} uh cross {pause} language as cross type of speech .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But we did {disfmarker} Oh yeah , the other thing I was asking him , though , is that I think that in the case {disfmarker} Yeah , you {disfmarker} you do have to be careful because of com compounded results . I think we got some earlier results {pause} in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you didn't have {pause} three , but you just had one {pause} language . So you trained on {pause} one type of digits and tested on another . Didn - Wasn't there something of that ? Where you , {pause} say , trained on Spanish and tested on {disfmarker} on TI - digits , or the other way around ? Something like that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I thought there was something like that , {pause} that he showed me {pause} last week . We 'll have to wait till we get {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would be interesting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , This may have been what I was asking before , Stephane , but {disfmarker} {pause} but , um , wasn't there something that you did , {pause} where you trained {pause} on one language and tested on another ? I mean no {disfmarker} no mixture but just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I 'll get it for you .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh , no , no .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We 've never just trained on one lang", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Training on a single language , you mean , and testing on the other one ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Not yet .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So the only {pause} task that 's similar to this is the training on two languages , and {comment} that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But we 've done a bunch of things where we just trained on one language . Right ? I mean , you haven't {disfmarker} you haven't done all your tests on multiple languages .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , No . Either thi this is test with {pause} uh the same language {pause} but from the broad data , or it 's test with {pause} uh different languages also from the broad data , excluding the {disfmarker} So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's three or {disfmarker} three and four .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "The early experiment that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Did you do different languages from digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . No . You mean {pause} training digits {pause} on one language and using the net {pause} to recognize on the other ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Digits on another language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "See , I thought you showed me something like that last week . You had a {disfmarker} you had a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , {pause} No , I don't think so .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um What {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "These numbers are uh {pause} ratio to baseline ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , I mean wha what 's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker} this chart {disfmarker} this table that we 're looking at {pause} is um , show is all testing for TI - digits , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Bigger is worse .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you have uh basically two {pause} uh parts .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This is error rate , I think .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Ratio .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No . {pause} No .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "The upper part is for TI - digits", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "and it 's divided in three {pause} rows {pause} of four {disfmarker} four rows each .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And the first four rows is well - matched , then the s the second group of four rows is mismatched , and {pause} finally highly mismatched . And then the lower part is for Italian and it 's the same {disfmarker} {pause} the same thing .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , so the upper part is training {pause} TI - digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the HTK results , I mean . So it 's {pause} HTK training testings {pause} with different kind of features", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and what appears in the {pause} uh left column is {pause} the networks that are used for doing this .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Uh Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , What was is that i What was it that you had {pause} done {pause} last week when you showed {disfmarker} Do you remember ? Wh - when you showed me {pause} the {disfmarker} your table last week ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It - It was part of these results . Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So where is the baseline {pause} for the TI - digits {pause} located in here ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You mean the HTK Aurora baseline ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's uh the one hundred number . It 's , well , all these numbers are the ratio {pause} with respect to the baseline .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah ! Ah , OK , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So this is word {disfmarker} word error rate , so a high number is bad .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is {pause} a word error rate ratio .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "OK , I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So , seventy point two means that {pause} we reduced the error rate uh by thirty {disfmarker} thirty percent .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , OK , gotcha .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , {vocalsound} so if we take", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh um let 's see PLP {pause} uh with on - line {pause} normalization and {pause} delta - del so that 's this thing you have circled here {pause} in the second column ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "um {pause} and \" multi - English \" refers to what ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "To TIMIT . Mmm . Then you have {pause} uh MF , {pause} MS and ME which are for French , Spanish and English . And , yeah . Actually I {disfmarker} {pause} I uh forgot to say that {pause} the multilingual net are trained {pause} on {pause} uh {pause} features without the s derivatives uh but with {pause} increased frame numbers . Mmm . And we can {disfmarker} we can see on the first line of the table that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it 's slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse when we don't use delta but it 's not {disfmarker} {pause} not that much .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So w w So , I 'm sorry . I missed that . What 's MF , MS and ME ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Multi - French , Multi - Spanish", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Multi - French , Multi - Spanish , and Multi - English .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh OK . So , it 's {pause} uh {pause} broader vocabulary . Then {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK so I think what I 'm {disfmarker} what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was {disfmarker} was {pause} there were some numbers I saw , I think , that included these multiple languages and it {disfmarker} and I was seeing {pause} that it got worse . I {disfmarker} I think that was all it was . You had some very limited results that {disfmarker} at that point", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "which showed {pause} having in these {disfmarker} these other languages . In fact it might have been just this last category , {pause} having two languages broad that were {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where English was removed . So that was cross language and the {disfmarker} and the result was quite poor . What I {disfmarker} {pause} we hadn't seen yet was that if you added in the English , it 's still poor .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um now , what 's the noise condition {pause} um {pause} of the training data {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Still poor .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , I think this is what you were explaining . The noise condition is the same {disfmarker} It 's the same uh Aurora noises uh , in all these cases {pause} for the training .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's not a {pause} statistical {disfmarker} sta a strong st {pause} statistically different {pause} noise characteristic between {pause} uh the training and test", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No these are the s s s same noises ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and yet we 're seeing some kind of effect {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah . At least {disfmarker} at least for the first {disfmarker} {pause} for the well - matched ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well matched condition .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's some kind of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an effect from having these {disfmarker} uh this broader coverage um Now I guess what we should try doing with this is try {pause} testing these on u this same sort of thing on {disfmarker} you probably must have this {pause} lined up to do . To try the same t {pause} with the exact same training , do testing on {pause} the other languages .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "On {disfmarker} on um {disfmarker} So . Um , oh I well , wait a minute . You have this here , for the Italian . That 's right . OK , so , {pause} So .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so for the Italian the results are {vocalsound} uh {pause} stranger um {pause} Mmm . So what appears is that perhaps Spanish is {pause} not very close to Italian because uh , well , {pause} when using the {disfmarker} the network trained only on Spanish it 's {disfmarker} {pause} the error rate is {pause} almost uh twice {pause} the baseline error rate .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , let 's see . Is there any difference in {disfmarker} So it 's in {pause} the uh {disfmarker} So you 're saying that {pause} when you train on English {pause} and {pause} uh {pause} and {disfmarker} and test on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , you don't have training on English testing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} another difference , is that the noise {disfmarker} the noises are different .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "In {disfmarker} in what ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , For {disfmarker} for the Italian part I mean the {pause} uh {pause} the um {pause} networks are trained with noise from {pause} Aurora {disfmarker} TI - digits ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Aurora - two .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the noise is different in th", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And perhaps the noise are {pause} quite different from the noises {pause} in the speech that Italian .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Do we have any um {pause} test sets {pause} uh in {pause} any other language that um have the same noise as in {pause} the Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm , no .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Can I ask something real quick ? In {disfmarker} in the upper part {disfmarker} {pause} in the English {pause} stuff , {pause} it looks like the very best number is sixty point nine ? and that 's in the uh {disfmarker} {pause} the third {pause} section in the upper part under PLP JRASTA , sort of the middle column ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I is that {pause} a noisy condition ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So that 's matched training ? Is that what that is ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} no , the third part , so it 's uh {pause} highly mismatched . So . Training and {pause} test noise are different .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} why do you get your best number in {disfmarker} Wouldn't you get your best number in the clean case ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's relative to the um {pause} baseline mismatching", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK so these are not {disfmarker} OK , alright , I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . And then {disfmarker} so , in the {disfmarker} in the um {disfmarker} {pause} in the {pause} non - mismatched clean case , {pause} your best one was under MFCC ? That sixty - one point four ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . {pause} But it 's not a clean case . It 's {pause} a noisy case but {pause} uh training and test noises are the same .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh ! So this upper third ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh that 's still noisy ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's always noisy basically ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and , {pause} well , the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ? Um {pause} So uh , I think this will take some {pause} looking at , thinking about . But , {pause} what is uh {disfmarker} what is currently running , that 's {disfmarker} uh , i that {disfmarker} just filling in the holes here or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} ? {comment} {pause} pretty much ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no we don't plan to fill the holes", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but {pause} actually there is something important , is that {pause} um we made a lot of assumption concerning the on - line normalization and we just noticed {pause} uh recently that {pause} uh the {pause} approach that we were using {pause} was not {pause} uh {pause} leading to very good results {pause} when we {pause} used the straight features to HTK . Um {pause} {pause} Mmm . So basically d {pause} if you look at the {disfmarker} at the left of the table , {pause} the first uh row , {pause} with eighty - six , one hundred , and forty - three and seventy - five , these are the results we obtained for Italian {pause} uh with {pause} straight {pause} mmm , PLP features {pause} using on - line normalization .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . And the , mmm {disfmarker} what 's {pause} in the table , just {pause} at the left of the PLP twelve {pause} on - line normalization column , so , the numbers seventy - nine , fifty - four and {pause} uh forty - two {pause} are the results obtained by uh Pratibha with {pause} uh his on - line normalization {disfmarker} uh her on - line normalization approach .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Where is that ? seventy - nine , fifty", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , it 's just sort of sitting right on the uh {disfmarker} the column line .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Fifty - one ? This {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Oh I see , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} uh Yeah . So these are the results of {pause} OGI with {pause} on - line normalization and straight features to HTK . And the previous result , eighty - six and so on , {pause} are with our {pause} features straight to HTK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So {pause} what we see that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} there is that um {pause} uh the way we were doing this was not correct , but {pause} still {pause} the networks {pause} are very good . When we use the networks {pause} our number are better that {pause} uh Pratibha results .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We improve .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So , do you know what was wrong with the on - line normalization , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . There were diff there were different things and {pause} basically , {pause} the first thing is the mmm , {pause} alpha uh {pause} value . So , the recursion {pause} uh {pause} part . um , {pause} I used point five percent , {pause} which was the default value in the {disfmarker} {pause} in the programs here . And Pratibha used five percent .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So it adapts more {pause} quickly", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um , but , yeah . I assume that this was not important because {pause} uh previous results from {disfmarker} from Dan and {disfmarker} show that basically {pause} the {pause} both {disfmarker} both values g give the same {disfmarker} same {pause} uh results . It was true on uh {pause} TI - digits but it 's not true on Italian .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , second thing is the initialization of the {pause} stuff . Actually , {pause} uh what we were doing is to start the recursion from the beginning of the {pause} utterance . And using initial values that are the global mean and variances {pause} measured across the whole database .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And Pratibha did something different is that he {disfmarker} uh she initialed the um values of the mean and variance {pause} by computing {pause} this on the {pause} twenty - five first frames of each utterance . Mmm . There were other minor differences , the fact that {pause} she used fifteen dissities instead s instead of thirteen , and that she used C - zero instead of log energy . Uh , but the main differences concerns the recursion . So . {pause} Uh , I changed the code uh and now we have a baseline that 's similar to the OGI baseline .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's slightly {pause} uh different because {pause} I don't exactly initialize the same way she does . Actually I start , {pause} mmm , I don't wait to a fifteen {disfmarker} twenty - five {disfmarker} twenty - five frames {pause} before computing a mean and the variance {pause} to e to {disfmarker} to start the recursion .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I use the on - line scheme and only start the re recursion after the twenty - five {disfmarker} {pause} twenty - fifth frame . But , well it 's similar . So {pause} uh I retrained {pause} the networks with {pause} these {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the networks are retaining with these new {pause} features .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So basically what I expect is that {pause} these numbers will a little bit go down but {pause} perhaps not {disfmarker} not so much", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because {pause} I think the neural networks learn perhaps {pause} to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "even if the features are not {pause} normalized . It {disfmarker} it will learn how to normalize and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , but I think that {pause} given the pressure of time we probably want to draw {disfmarker} because of that {pause} especially , we wanna draw some conclusions from this , do some reductions {pause} in what we 're looking at ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and make some strong decisions for what we 're gonna do testing on before next week . So do you {disfmarker} are you {disfmarker} w did you have something going on , on the side , with uh multi - band {pause} or {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on this ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} I", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No , I {disfmarker} we plan to start this uh so , act actually we have discussed uh {pause} @ @ um , these {disfmarker} what we could do {pause} more as a {disfmarker} as a research and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we were thinking perhaps that {pause} uh {pause} the way we use the tandem is not {disfmarker} Uh , well , there is basically perhaps a flaw in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the stuff because {pause} we {pause} trained the networks {disfmarker} If we trained the networks on the {disfmarker} on {pause} a language and a t or a specific {pause} task ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um , what we ask is {disfmarker} to the network {disfmarker} is to put the bound the decision boundaries somewhere in the space .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And uh {pause} mmm and ask the network to put one , {pause} at one side of the {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a particular phoneme at one side of the boundary {disfmarker} decision boundary and one for another phoneme at the other side . And {pause} so there is kind of reduction of the information there that 's not correct because if we change task {pause} and if the phonemes are not in the same context in the new task , {pause} obviously the {pause} decision boundaries are not {disfmarker} {pause} should not be at the same {pause} place .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I di", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But the way the feature gives {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the way the network gives the features is that it reduce completely the {disfmarker} {pause} it removes completely the information {disfmarker} {pause} a lot of information from the {disfmarker} the features {pause} by uh {pause} uh {pause} placing the decision boundaries at {pause} optimal places for {pause} one kind of {pause} data but {pause} this is not the case for another kind of data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's a trade - off ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ? Any - anyway go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . So uh what we were thinking about is perhaps {pause} um one way {pause} to solve this problem is increase the number of {pause} outputs of the neural networks . Doing something like , um {pause} um phonemes within context and , well , basically context dependent phonemes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Maybe . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think {pause} you could make {pause} the same argument , it 'd be just as legitimate , {pause} for hybrid systems {pause} as well . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah but , we know that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And in fact , {pause} th things get better with context dependent {pause} versions . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye - yeah but here it 's something different . We want to have features", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh well , {pause} um .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it 's still true {pause} that what you 're doing {pause} is you 're ignoring {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're coming up with something to represent , {pause} whether it 's a distribution , {pause} probability distribution or features , you 're coming up with a set of variables {pause} that are representing {pause} uh , {pause} things that vary w over context .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , and you 're {pause} putting it all together , ignoring the differences in context . That {disfmarker} that 's true {pause} for the hybrid system , it 's true for a tandem system . So , for that reason , when you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a hybrid system , {pause} when you incorporate context one way or another , {pause} you do get better scores .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ? But I {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a big deal {pause} to get that . I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of {disfmarker} And once you {disfmarker} the other thing is that once you represent {disfmarker} start representing more and more context {pause} it is {pause} uh {pause} much more {pause} um specific {pause} to a particular task in language . So um Uh , the {disfmarker} {pause} the acoustics associated with {pause} uh a particular context , for instance you may have some kinds of contexts that will never occur {pause} in one language and will occur frequently in the other , so the qu the issue of getting enough training {pause} for a particular kind of context becomes harder . We already actually don't have a huge amount of training data um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} mmm , I mean , {pause} the {disfmarker} the way we {disfmarker} we do it now is that we have a neural network and {pause} basically {pause} the net network is trained almost to give binary decisions .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And {pause} uh {disfmarker} binary decisions about phonemes . Nnn {disfmarker} Uh It 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Almost . But I mean it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does give a distribution .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {pause} it is true that if there 's two phones that are very similar , {pause} that {pause} uh {pause} the {disfmarker} {pause} i it may prefer one but it will {pause} give a reasonably high value to the other , too .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , sure but uh {pause} So basically it 's almost binary decisions and {pause} um the idea of using more {pause} classes is {pause} to {pause} get something that 's {pause} less binary decisions .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh no , but it would still be even more of a binary decision . It {disfmarker} it 'd be even more of one . Because then you would say {pause} that in {disfmarker} that this phone in this context is a one , {pause} but the same phone in a slightly different context is a zero .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "That would be even {disfmarker} even more distinct of a binary decision . I actually would have thought you 'd wanna go the other way and have fewer classes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , I mean for instance , the {disfmarker} the thing I was arguing for before , but again which I don't think we have time to try , {pause} is something in which you would modify the code so you could train to have several outputs on and use articulatory features", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "cuz then that would {disfmarker} that would go {disfmarker} {pause} that would be much broader and cover many different situations . But if you go to very very fine categories , it 's very {pause} binary .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah , perhaps you 're right , but you have more classes so {pause} you {disfmarker} you have more information in your features . So , {vocalsound} Um {pause} You have more information in the {pause} uh", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . True .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "posteriors vector um which means that {disfmarker} But still the information is relevant", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it 's information that helps to discriminate ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it 's possible to be able to discriminate {pause} among the phonemes in context .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's an interesting thought .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean we {disfmarker} we could disagree about it at length", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but the {disfmarker} the real thing is if you 're interested in it you 'll probably try it", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we 'll see . But {disfmarker} but what I 'm more concerned with now , as an operational level , is {pause} uh , you know ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "what do we do in four or five days ? Uh , and {disfmarker} {pause} so we have {pause} to be concerned {pause} with Are we gonna look at any combinations of things , you know once the nets get retrained so you have this problem out of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , are we going to look at {pause} multi - band ? Are we gonna look at combinations of things ? Uh , what questions are we gonna ask , uh now that , I mean , {pause} we should probably turn shortly to this O G I note . Um , how are we going to {pause} combine {pause} with what they 've been focusing on ? Uh , {pause} Uh we haven't been doing any of the L D A RASTA sort of thing .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And they , although they don't talk about it in this note , um , {pause} there 's um , {pause} the issue of the {pause} um Mu law {pause} business {pause} uh {pause} versus the logarithm , um , {pause} so .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So what i what is going on right now ? What 's right {disfmarker} you 've got {pause} nets retraining , Are there {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any H T K {pause} trainings {disfmarker} testings going on ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "N", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm trying the HTK with eh , {pause} PLP twelve on - line delta - delta and MSG filter {pause} together .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "The combination , I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The combination , yeah . But I haven't result {vocalsound} at this moment .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "MSG and {disfmarker} and PLP .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . ", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "And is this with the revised {pause} on - line normalization ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye - Uh , with the old {pause} older ,", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Old one . So it 's using all the nets for that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "but again we have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} We have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} maybe it 's not making too much difference ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {pause} We can know soon .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh so there is this combination , yeah . Working on combination obviously .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Um , I will start work on multi - band . And {pause} we {pause} plan to work also on the idea of using both {pause} features {pause} and net outputs .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Um . And {pause} we think that {pause} with this approach perhaps {pause} we could reduce the number of outputs of the neural network . Um , So , get simpler networks , because we still have the features . So we have um {pause} come up with um {pause} different kind of {pause} broad phonetic categories . And we have {disfmarker} Basically we have three {pause} types of broad phonetic classes . Well , something using place of articulation which {disfmarker} which leads to {pause} nine , I think , {pause} broad classes . Uh , another which is based on manner , which is {disfmarker} is also something like nine classes . And then , {pause} something that combine both , and we have {pause} twenty f {pause} twenty - five ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Twenty - seven .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Twenty - seven broad classes . So like , uh , oh , I don't know , like back vowels , front vowels .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So what you do {disfmarker} um I just wanna understand", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um For the moments we do not {disfmarker} don't have nets ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so {pause} You have two net or three nets ? Was this ? How many {disfmarker} how many nets do you have ? No nets .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean , {pause} It 's just {disfmarker} Were we just changing {pause} the labels to retrain nets {pause} with fewer out outputs .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Begin to work in this . We are @ @ .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Right . But {disfmarker} but I didn't understand {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} the software currently just has {disfmarker} uh a {disfmarker} allows for I think , the one {disfmarker} one hot output . So you 're having multiple nets and combining them , or {disfmarker} ? Uh , how are you {disfmarker} how are you coming up with {disfmarker} If you say {pause} uh {pause} If you have a place {pause} characteristic and a manner characteristic , how do you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It - It 's the single net ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I think they have one output .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's just one net .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's one net with {pause} um {pause} twenty - seven outputs", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "if we have twenty - seven classes ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I see . I see , OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's basically a standard net with fewer {pause} classes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So you 're sort of going the other way of what you were saying a bit ago instead of {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah . B b including the features , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But including the features .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I don't think this {pause} will work {pause} alone . I think it will get worse because Well , I believe the effect that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of too reducing too much the information is {pause} basically {disfmarker} basically what happens", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But you think if you include that {pause} plus the other features ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah , because {pause} there is perhaps one important thing that the net {pause} brings , and OGI show showed that , is {pause} the distinction between {pause} sp speech and silence Because these nets are trained on well - controlled condition . I mean the labels are obtained on clean speech , and we add noise after . So this is one thing And But perhaps , something intermediary using also {pause} some broad classes could {disfmarker} could bring so much more information . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so again then we have these broad classes and {disfmarker} well , somewhat broad . I mean , it 's twenty - seven instead of sixty - four , {pause} basically . And you have the original features .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Which are PLP , or something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And then uh , just to remind me , all of that goes {pause} into {disfmarker} uh , that all of that is transformed by uh , uh , K - KL or something , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . There will probably be ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mu .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "yeah , one single KL to transform everything", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or {vocalsound} {pause} uh ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No transform the PLP", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "per", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and only transform the other I 'm not sure .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Well no ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "This is {pause} still something {pause} that", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah , we {pause} don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's a question of whether you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two e @ @ it 's one .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . Whether you would transform together or just one . Yeah . Might wanna try it both ways . But that 's interesting . So that 's something that you 're {disfmarker} you haven't trained yet but are preparing to train , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um {pause} {pause} Yeah , so I think Hynek will be here Monday .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": " Monday or Tuesday . So", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I think , you know , we need to {pause} choose the {disfmarker} choose the experiments carefully , so we can get uh key {disfmarker} {pause} key questions answered {pause} uh before then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and {pause} leave other ones aside even if it {pause} leaves incomplete {pause} tables {vocalsound} {pause} someplace , uh {pause} uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really time to {disfmarker} {pause} time to choose .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , let me pass this out , {pause} by the way . Um These are {disfmarker} Did {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} {pause} did I interrupt you ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have one .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Were there other things that you wanted to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no . I don't think so .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , thanks .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Ah ! {pause} OK . {pause} OK , we have {pause} lots of them .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We have one . ", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "OK , so {vocalsound} um , Something I asked {disfmarker} So they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing {pause} the {disfmarker} the VAD I guess they mean voice activity detection So again , it 's the silence {disfmarker} So they 've just trained up a net {pause} which has two outputs , I believe . Um {vocalsound} I asked uh {pause} Hynek whether {disfmarker} I haven't talked to Sunil {disfmarker} I asked Hynek whether {pause} they compared that to {pause} just taking the nets we already had {pause} and summing up the probabilities .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} To get the speech {disfmarker} voice activity detection , or else just using the silence , {pause} if there 's only one {pause} silence output . Um {pause} And , he didn't think they had , um . But on the other hand , maybe they can get by with a smaller net and {pause} maybe {pause} sometimes you don't run the other , maybe there 's a computational advantage to having a separate net , anyway .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So um Their uh {disfmarker} {pause} the results look pretty good . Um , {pause} I mean , not uniformly .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , there 's a {disfmarker} an example or two {pause} that you can find , where it made it slightly worse , but {pause} uh in {disfmarker} in all but a couple {pause} examples .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But they have a question of the result . Um how are trained the {disfmarker} the LDA filter ? How obtained the LDA filter ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I I 'm sorry . I don't understand your question .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes , um the LDA filter {pause} needs some {pause} training set {pause} to obtain the filter . Maybe I don't know exactly how {pause} they are obtained .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It 's on {pause} training .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Training , with the training test of each {disfmarker} You understand me ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh for example , {pause} LDA filter {pause} need a set of {disfmarker} {pause} a set of training {pause} to obtain the filter .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And maybe {pause} for the Italian , for the TD {pause} TE on for Finnish , these filter are {disfmarker} are obtained with their own training set .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes , I don't know . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} so that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very good question , then {disfmarker} now that it {disfmarker} {pause} I understand it . It 's \" yeah , where does the LDA come from ? \" In the {disfmarker} In {pause} earlier experiments , they had taken LDA {pause} from a completely different database , right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , because maybe it the same situation that the neural network training with their own", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "set .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So that 's a good question . Where does it come from ? Yeah , I don't know . Um , {pause} but uh to tell you the {pause} truth , I wasn't actually looking at the LDA so much when I {disfmarker} I was looking at it I was {pause} mostly thinking about the {disfmarker} {pause} the VAD . And um , it ap {pause} it ap Oh what does {disfmarker} what does ASP ? Oh that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The features , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't understand also", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It says \" baseline ASP \" .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "what is {disfmarker} {pause} what is the difference between ASP and uh baseline over ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "ASP .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Anybody know {pause} any {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh . There it is .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um Cuz there 's \" baseline Aurora \" {pause} above it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And it 's {disfmarker} This is mostly better than baseline , although in some cases it 's a little worse , in a couple cases .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , it says baseline ASP is twenty - three mill {pause} minus thirteen .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , it says what it is . But I don't how that 's different {pause} from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "From the baseline . {comment} OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I think this was {disfmarker} {pause} I think this is the same point we were at when {disfmarker} when we were up in Oregon .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} {pause} I think it 's the C - zero {disfmarker} using C - zero instead of log energy .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah , OK , mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's this .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh . OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It should be that , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "They s they say in here that the VAD is not used as an additional feature .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Shouldn't it be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Does {disfmarker} does anybody know how they 're using it ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker} so what they 're doing here is , {pause} i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "if you look down at the block diagram , {pause} um , {pause} they estimate {disfmarker} they get a {disfmarker} {pause} they get an estimate {pause} of whether it 's speech or silence ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then they have a median filter of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And so um , {pause} basically they 're trying to find stretches . The median filter is enforcing a {disfmarker} i it having some continuity .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You find stretches where the {pause} combination of the {pause} frame wise VAD and the {disfmarker} {pause} the median filter say that there 's a stretch of silence . And then it 's going through and just throwing the data away .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't understand . You mean it 's throwing out frames ? Before {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's throwing out chunks of frames , yeah . There 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the median filter is enforcing that it 's not gonna be single cases of frames , or isolated frames .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's throwing out frames and the thing is {pause} um , {pause} what I don't understand is how they 're doing this with H T", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's what I was just gonna ask .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "How can you just throw out frames ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , you {disfmarker} you can ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "i", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ? I mean y you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "it stretches again . For single frames I think it would be pretty hard .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But if you say speech starts here , speech ends there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , you can basically remove the {disfmarker} the frames from the feature {disfmarker} feature files .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so I mean in the {disfmarker} i i in the {disfmarker} in the decoding , you 're saying that we 're gonna decode from here to here .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I t", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're treating it , {pause} you know , like uh {disfmarker} well , it 's not isolated word , but {disfmarker} but connected , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "In the text they say that this {disfmarker} this is a tentative block diagram of a possible configuration we could think of . So that sort of sounds like they 're not doing that yet .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well . {pause} No they {disfmarker} they have numbers though , right ? So I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing something like that . I think that they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} I think what I mean by tha that is they 're trying to come up with a block diagram that 's plausible for the standard . In other words , it 's {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean from the point of view of {disfmarker} of uh reducing the number of bits you have to transmit it 's not a bad idea to detect silence anyway .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I 'm just wondering what exactly did they do up in this table if it wasn't this .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . But it 's {disfmarker} the thing is it 's that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Certainly it would be tricky about it intrans in transmitting voice , {pause} uh uh for listening to , is that these kinds of things {pause} uh cut {pause} speech off a lot .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right ? And so {pause} um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Plus it 's gonna introduce delays .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It does introduce delays but they 're claiming that it 's {disfmarker} it 's within the {disfmarker} {pause} the boundaries of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And the LDA introduces delays , and b {pause} what he 's suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it doesn't introduce {pause} uh , any more delay . I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same {pause} time the LDA {pause} down here {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} Wh what 's the difference between TLDA and SLDA ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Temporal and spectral .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah , thank you .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Temporal LDA .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , you would know that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So um . The temporal LDA does in fact include the same {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} I think he {disfmarker} well , by {disfmarker} by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means {pause} if you construct it this way , this {disfmarker} this delay would work in that way", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then it 'd be OK . They {disfmarker} they clearly did actually remove {pause} silent sections in order {disfmarker} because they {pause} got these {pause} word error rate {pause} results . So um I think that it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to do that in this because in fact , it 's gonna give a better word error result and therefore will help within an evaluation . Whereas to whether this would actually be in a final standard , I don't know . Um . Uh , as you know , part of the problem with evaluation right now is that the {pause} word models are pretty bad and nobody wants {disfmarker} {pause} has {disfmarker} has approached improving them . So {pause} it 's possible that a lot of the problems {pause} with so many insertions and so forth would go away if they were better word models {pause} to begin with . So {pause} this might just be a temporary thing . But {disfmarker} But , on the other hand , and maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's a decent idea . So um The question we 're gonna wanna go {pause} through next week when Hynek shows up I guess is given that we 've been {disfmarker} if you look at what we 've been trying , we 're uh looking at {pause} uh , by then I guess , combinations of features and multi - band Uh , and we 've been looking at {pause} cross - language , cross {pause} task {pause} issues . And they 've been not so much looking at {pause} the cross task uh multiple language issues . But they 've been looking at uh {disfmarker} {pause} at these issues . At the on - line normalization and the uh {pause} voice activity detection . And I guess when he comes here we 're gonna have to start deciding about {pause} um what do we choose {pause} from what we 've looked at {pause} to um blend with {pause} some group of things in what they 've looked at And once we choose that , {pause} how do we split up the {pause} effort ? Uh , because we still have {disfmarker} even once we choose , {pause} we 've still got {pause} uh another {pause} month or so , I mean there 's holidays in the way , but {disfmarker} but uh {pause} I think the evaluation data comes January thirty - first so there 's still a fair amount of time {pause} to do things together it 's just that they probably should be somewhat more coherent between the two sites {pause} in that {disfmarker} that amount of time .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "When they removed the silence frames , did they insert some kind of a marker so that the recognizer knows it 's {disfmarker} {pause} knows when it 's time to back trace or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , see they , I {disfmarker} I think they 're Um . I don't know the {disfmarker} {pause} the specifics of how they 're doing it . They 're {disfmarker} {pause} they 're getting around the way the recognizer works because they 're not allowed to {pause} um , change the scripts {pause} for the recognizer , {pause} I believe .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , right . Maybe they 're just inserting some nummy frames or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Uh . Uh , you know that 's what I had thought . But I don't {disfmarker} I don't think they are .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean that 's {disfmarker} sort of what {disfmarker} the way I had imagined would happen is that on the other side , yeah you p put some low level noise or something . Probably don't want all zeros .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Most recognizers don't like zeros but {vocalsound} but {pause} you know , {pause} put some epsilon in or some rand", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "sorry epsilon random variable {pause} in or something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Some constant vector . I mean i w Or something {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Maybe not a constant but it doesn't , uh {disfmarker} don't like to divide by the variance of that , but I mean it 's", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's right . But something that {disfmarker} what I mean is something that is {pause} very distinguishable from {pause} speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So that the {disfmarker} the silence model in HTK will always pick it up .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} that 's what I thought they would do . or else , uh {pause} uh maybe there is some indicator to tell it to start and stop , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But whatever they did , I mean they have to play within the rules of this specific evaluation .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We c we can find out .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Cuz you gotta do something . Otherwise , if it 's just a bunch of speech , stuck together {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No they 're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It would do badly", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and it didn't so badly , right ? So they did something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh . So , OK , So I think {pause} this brings me up to date a bit . It hopefully brings other {pause} people up to date a bit . And um Um {pause} I think {disfmarker} Uh , I wanna look at these numbers off - line a little bit and think about it and {disfmarker} {pause} and talk with everybody uh , {pause} outside of this meeting . Um , but uh No I mean it sounds like {disfmarker} I mean {pause} there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there are the usual number of {disfmarker} of {pause} little {disfmarker} little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they 're getting ironed out . And now we 're {pause} seem to be kind of in a position to actually {pause} uh , {pause} look at stuff and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and compare things . So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty good . Um {pause} I don't know what the {disfmarker} One of the things I wonder about , {pause} coming back to the first results you talked about , is {disfmarker} is {pause} how much , {pause} uh {pause} things could be helped {pause} by more parameters . And uh {disfmarker} {pause} And uh how many more parameters we can afford to have , {vocalsound} {pause} in terms of the uh computational limits . Because anyway when we go to {pause} twice as much data {pause} and have the same number of parameters , particularly when it 's twice as much data and it 's quite diverse , um , I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , just have a bigger hidden layer . Uh But {disfmarker} I doubt it would {pause} help by forty per cent . But {vocalsound} {pause} but uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Just curious . How are we doing on the {pause} resources ? Disk , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think we 're alright ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um , {pause} not much problems with that .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Computation ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well this table took uh {pause} more than five days to get back .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , well .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Are {disfmarker} were you folks using Gin ? That 's a {disfmarker} that just died , you know ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm , no . You were using Gin {comment} perhaps , yeah ? No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No ? Oh , that 's good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It just died .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , {pause} we 're gonna get a replacement {pause} server that 'll be a faster server , {pause} actually .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} It 's a {pause} seven hundred fifty megahertz uh SUN", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm . {comment} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {pause} But it won't be installed for {pause} a little while .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Tonic .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "U Go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Do we {disfmarker} Do we have that big new IBM machine the , I think in th", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "We have the {pause} little tiny IBM machine {vocalsound} {pause} that might someday grow up to be a big {pause} IBM machine . It 's got s slots for eight , uh IBM was donating five , I think we only got two so far , processors . We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors . They ended up being five fifty . So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz , we ended up with two {pause} that are five hundred and fifty megahertz . And more are supposed to come soon and there 's only a moderate amount of dat of memory . So I don't think {pause} anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to {pause} spend much time {pause} uh {pause} with it , but uh {vocalsound} Hopefully , {pause} they 'll get us some more {pause} parts , soon and {disfmarker} Uh , yeah , I think that 'll be {disfmarker} once we get it populated , {pause} that 'll be a nice machine . I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there . And uh {disfmarker} and uh a nice amount of memory . Uh so it 'll be a pr pretty fast Linux machine .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And if we can do things on Linux , {pause} some of the machines we have going already , like Swede ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um It seems pretty fast .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I think Fudge is pretty fast too .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean you can check with uh {pause} Dave Johnson . I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} I think the machine is just sitting there . And it does have two processors , you know and {disfmarker} {pause} Somebody could do {disfmarker} {pause} you know , uh , check out {pause} uh the multi - threading {pause} libraries . And {pause} I mean i it 's possible that the {disfmarker} I mean , I guess the prudent thing to do would be for somebody to do the work on {disfmarker} {pause} on getting our code running {pause} on that machine with two processors {pause} even though there aren't five or eight . There 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's gonna be debugging hassles and then we 'd be set for when we did have five or eight , to have it really be useful . But . {pause} Notice how I said somebody and {vocalsound} turned my head your direction . That 's one thing you don't get in these recordings . You don't get the {disfmarker} {pause} don't get the visuals but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I is it um {pause} mostly um the neural network trainings that are {pause} um slowing us down or the HTK runs that are slowing us down ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Uh , I think yes . Uh , {vocalsound} Isn't that right ? I mean I think you 're {disfmarker} you 're sort of held up by both , right ? If the {disfmarker} if the neural net trainings were a hundred times faster {pause} you still wouldn't {pause} be anything {disfmarker} running through these a hundred times faster because you 'd {pause} be stuck by the HTK trainings ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But if the HTK {disfmarker} I mean I think they 're both {disfmarker} It sounded like they were roughly equal ? Is that about right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Because , um {pause} I think that 'll be running Linux , and Sw - Swede and Fudge are already running Linux so , {pause} um I could try to get {pause} um the train the neural network trainings or the HTK stuff running under Linux , and to start with I 'm {pause} wondering which one I should pick first .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Uh , probably the neural net cuz it 's probably {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's um {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . They both {disfmarker} HTK we use for {pause} um {pause} this Aurora stuff Um {pause} Um , I think {pause} It 's not clear yet what we 're gonna use {pause} for trainings uh {disfmarker} Well , {pause} there 's the trainings uh {disfmarker} is it the training that takes the time , or the decoding ? Uh , is it about equal {pause} between the two ? For {disfmarker} for Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "For HTK ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "For {disfmarker} Yeah . For the Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh Training is longer .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . Well , I don't know how we can {disfmarker} I don't know how to {disfmarker} Do we have HTK source ? Is that {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You would think that would fairly trivially {disfmarker} the training would , anyway , th the testing {pause} uh I don't {disfmarker} I don't {pause} think would {pause} parallelize all that well . But I think {pause} that {pause} you could {pause} certainly do d um , {pause} distributed , sort of {disfmarker} {pause} Ah , no , it 's the {disfmarker} {pause} each individual {pause} sentence is pretty tricky to parallelize . But you could split up the sentences in a test set .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "They have a {disfmarker} they have a thing for doing that and th they have for awhile , in H T And you can parallelize the training .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And run it on several machines", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Aha !", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and it just basically keeps counts . And there 's something {disfmarker} {pause} a final {pause} thing that you run and it accumulates all the counts together .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't what their scripts are {pause} set up to do for the Aurora stuff , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Something that we haven't really settled on yet is other than {pause} this Aurora stuff , {pause} uh what do we do , large vocabulary {pause} training slash testing {pause} for uh tandem systems . Cuz we hadn't really done much with tandem systems for larger stuff . Cuz we had this one collaboration with CMU and we used SPHINX . Uh , we 're also gonna be collaborating with SRI and we have their {disfmarker} have theirs . Um {pause} So {pause} I don't know Um . So I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} the advantage of going with the neural net thing is that we 're gonna use the neural net trainings , no matter what , for a lot of the things we 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "whereas , w exactly which HMM {disfmarker} Gaussian - mixture - based HMM thing we use is gonna depend uh So with that , maybe we should uh {vocalsound} go to our {nonvocalsound} digit recitation task . And , it 's about eleven fifty . Canned . Uh , I can {disfmarker} I can start over here . Great , uh , could you give Adam a call . Tell him to He 's at two nine seven seven .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . I think we can {vocalsound} @ @ You know Herve 's coming tomorrow , right ? Herve will be giving a talk , yeah , talk at eleven . Did uh , did everybody sign these consent Er everybody Has everyone signed a consent form before , on previous meetings ? You don't have to do it again each time Yes . microphones off", "speaker": "Professor B" } ]

[ { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I think I 'm zero .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wow ! Unprecedented .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hello , hello , hello , hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Wh - what causes the crash ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Did you fix something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Five , five .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Hello , hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe it 's the turning {disfmarker} turning off and turning on of the mike , right ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh , you think that 's you ? Oh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Aaa - aaa - aaa .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , mine 's working .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . That 's me .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . OK . So , um I guess we are {pause} um {pause} gonna do the digits at the end . Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Channel {disfmarker} channel three , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Channel two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm , channel five ? Doesn't work ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's the mike number there , uh {pause} Uh , mike number five , and {pause} channel {disfmarker} channel four .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is it written on her sheet , I believe .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No ? Ah ,", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mike four .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Watch this .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "era el cuatro .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yep , that 's me .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "But , channel", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "This is you .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . I saw that . Ah {disfmarker} yeah , it 's OK .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah . And I 'm channel uh two I think ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ooo .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "or channel {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think I 'm channel two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , I 'm channel {disfmarker} must be channel one . Channel one ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Channel {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I decided to talk about that .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes , OK . OK . So uh {pause} I also copied uh the results that we all got in the mail I think from uh {disfmarker} {pause} from OGI and we 'll go {disfmarker} go through them also . So where are we on {disfmarker} {pause} on uh {vocalsound} {pause} our runs ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh so . {pause} uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} So {pause} As I was already said , we {disfmarker} we mainly focused on uh four kind of features .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Excuse me .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The PLP , the PLP with JRASTA , the MSG , and the MFCC from the baseline Aurora .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , and we focused for the {disfmarker} the test part on the English and the Italian . Um . We 've trained uh several neural networks on {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on the TI - digits English {pause} and on the Italian data and also on the broad uh {pause} English uh French and uh Spanish databases . Mmm , so there 's our result tables here , for the tandem approach , and um , actually what we {disfmarker} we @ @ observed is that if the network is trained on the task data it works pretty well .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . Our {disfmarker} our uh {disfmarker} {pause} There 's a {disfmarker} {pause} We 're pausing for a photo {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Chicken on the grill . Try that corner .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "How about over th from the front of the room ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's longer .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "We 're pausing for a photo opportunity here . Uh . {vocalsound} Uh . So .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh wait wait wait wait wait . Wait .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Get out of the {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hold on . Hold on .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Let me give you a black screen .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "He 's facing this way . What ? OK , this {disfmarker} this would be a {pause} good section for our silence detection .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um Oh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Musical chairs everybody !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . So um , {pause} you were saying {pause} about the training data {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , so if the network is trained on the task data um {pause} tandem works pretty well . And uh actually we have uh , results are similar Only on ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Do you mean if it 's trained only on {disfmarker} On data from just that task ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "that language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Just that task . But actually we didn't train network on {pause} uh both types of data I mean {pause} uh {pause} phonetically ba phonetically balanced uh data and task data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We only did either task {disfmarker} task data or {pause} uh broad {pause} data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um {pause} Yeah . So ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So how {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} clearly it 's gonna be good then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So what 's th", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but the question is how much {pause} worse is it {pause} if you have broad data ? I mean , {pause} my assump From what I saw from the earlier results , uh I guess last week , {pause} was that um , {pause} if you {pause} trained on one language and tested on another , say , that {pause} the results were {disfmarker} were relatively poor .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but the question is if you train on one language {pause} but you have a broad coverage {pause} and then test in another , {pause} does that {disfmarker} {pause} is that improve things {pause} i c in comparison ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If we use the same language ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , no , no . Different lang So {pause} um {pause} If you train on TI - digits {pause} and test on Italian digits , {pause} you do poorly , {pause} let 's say .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't have the numbers in front of me ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah but I did not uh do that .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so I 'm just imagining . E So , you didn't train on {pause} TIMIT and test on {disfmarker} {pause} on Italian digits , say ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} No , we did four {disfmarker} four kind of {disfmarker} of testing , actually . The first testing is {pause} with task data {disfmarker} So , with nets trained on task data . So for Italian on the Italian speech @ @ . The second test is trained on a single language um with broad database , but the same language as the t task data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But for Italian we choose Spanish which {pause} we assume is close to Italian . The third test is by using , um the three language database", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "W which in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and the fourth is", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It has three languages . That 's including the w the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "This includes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "the one that it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "In", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {pause} not digits . I mean it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "The three languages {pause} is not digits ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "it 's the broad {pause} data . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah And the fourth test is uh {pause} excluding from these three languages the language {pause} that is {pause} the task language .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK , yeah , so , that is what I wanted to know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I just wasn't saying it very well , I guess .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah . So um {pause} for uh TI - digits for ins example {pause} uh when we go from TI - digits training to {pause} TIMIT training {pause} uh we lose {pause} uh around ten percent , uh . The error rate increase u of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of ten percent , relative .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Relative . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So this is not so bad . And then when we jump to the multilingual data it 's uh it become worse and , well Around uh , let 's say , {pause} twenty perc twenty percent further .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ab - about how much ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Twenty percent further ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Twenty to {disfmarker} to thirty percent further . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And so , remind me , the multilingual stuff is just the broad data . Right ? It 's not the digits .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So it 's the combination of {pause} two things there . It 's {pause} removing the {pause} task specific {pause} training and {pause} it 's adding other languages .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But the first step is al already removing the task s specific from {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Already , right right right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So they were sort of building {pause} here ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And we lose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh {pause} So , basically when it 's trained on the {disfmarker} the multilingual broad data {pause} um or number {disfmarker} so , the {disfmarker} the {pause} ratio of our error rates uh with the {pause} baseline error rate is around {pause} uh one point one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} And it 's something like one point three of {disfmarker} of the {pause} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I i if you compare everything to the first case at the baseline , you get something like one point one for the {disfmarker} for the using the same language but a different task , and something like one point three {pause} for three {disfmarker} three languages {pause} broad stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No no no . Uh same language we are at uh {disfmarker} for at English at O point eight . So it improves , {pause} compared to the baseline . But {disfmarker} So . Le - let me .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Tas - task data", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I meant something different by baseline", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "we are u Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So let me {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} Um , {pause} so , {pause} um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , fine . Let 's {disfmarker} let 's use the conventional meaning of baseline .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} By baseline here I meant {pause} uh using the task specific data .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , the f Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {pause} uh , because that 's what you were just doing with this ten percent .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I was just {disfmarker} I just trying to understand that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So if we call {pause} a factor of w just one , just normalized to one , the word error rate {pause} that you have {pause} for using TI - digits as {disfmarker} as {pause} training and TI - digits as test ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh different words , I 'm sure ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {pause} but uh , uh the same {pause} task and so on .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "If we call that \" one \" , {pause} then what you 're saying is {pause} that the word error rate {pause} for the same language but using {pause} uh different training data than you 're testing on , say TIMIT and so forth , {pause} it 's one point one .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , it 's around one point one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . And if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you {pause} do {pause} go to {pause} three languages including the English , {pause} it 's something like one point three . That 's what you were just saying , I think .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye Uh , more actually .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "One point four ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If I {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , it 's an additional thirty percent .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What would you say ? Around one point four", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And if you exclude {pause} English , {pause} from this combination , what 's that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If we exclude English , {pause} um {pause} there is {pause} not much difference with the {pause} data with English .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Aha !", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "That 's interesting . {pause} That 's interesting . Do you see ? Because {disfmarker} Uh ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} No , that {disfmarker} that 's important . So what {disfmarker} what it 's saying here is just that \" yes , there is a reduction {pause} in performance , {pause} when you don't {pause} um {pause} have the s {pause} when you don't have {pause} um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Task data .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wait a minute , th th the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , actually {pause} it 's interesting . So it 's {disfmarker} So when you go to a different task , there 's actually not so {pause} different . It 's when you went to these {disfmarker} So what 's the difference between two and three ? Between the one point one case and the one point four case ? I 'm confused .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's multilingual .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . The only difference it 's {disfmarker} is that it 's multilingual {disfmarker} Um", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Cuz in both {disfmarker} in both {disfmarker} both of those cases , you don't have the same task .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah sure .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So is {disfmarker} is the training data for the {disfmarker} for this one point four case {disfmarker} does it include the training data for the one point one case ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , a fraction of it .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "A part of it , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "How m how much bigger is it ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um {pause} It 's two times ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , um .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "actually ? Yeah . Um . The English data {disfmarker} {pause} No , the multilingual databases are two times the {pause} broad English {pause} data . We just wanted to keep this , w well , not too huge . So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So it 's two times , but it includes the {disfmarker} but it includes the broad English data .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think so . Do you {disfmarker} Uh , Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the broad English data is what you got this one point one {pause} with . So that 's TIMIT basically right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So it 's band - limited TIMIT . This is all eight kilohertz sampling .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Downs Right .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you have band - limited TIMIT , {pause} gave you uh almost as good as a result as using TI - digits {pause} on a TI - digits test . OK ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um {pause} and {pause} um But , {pause} when you add in more training data but keep the neural net the same size , {pause} it {pause} um performs worse on the TI - digits . OK , now all of this is {disfmarker} {pause} This is noisy {pause} TI - digits , I assume ? Both training and test ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Um OK . Well . {pause} We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we may just need to uh {disfmarker} So I mean it 's interesting that h going to a different {disfmarker} different task didn't seem to hurt us that much , and going to a different language um It doesn't seem to matter {disfmarker} The difference between three and four is not particularly great , so that means that {pause} whether you have the language in or not is not such a big deal .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It sounds like um {pause} uh {pause} we may need to have more {pause} of uh things that are similar to a target language or {disfmarker} I mean . {pause} You have the same number of parameters in the neural net , you haven't increased the size of the neural net , and maybe there 's just {disfmarker} {pause} just not enough {pause} complexity to it to represent {pause} the variab increased variability in the {disfmarker} in the training set . That {disfmarker} that could be . Um {pause} So , what about {disfmarker} So these are results with {pause} uh th {pause} that you 're describing now , that {pause} they are pretty similar for the different features or {disfmarker} {pause} or uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , let me check . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . This was for the PLP ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um . The {disfmarker} Yeah . For the PLP with JRASTA the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} This is quite the same {pause} tendency , {pause} with a slight increase of the error rate , {pause} uh if we go to {disfmarker} to TIMIT . And then it 's {disfmarker} it gets worse with the multilingual . Um . Yeah . There {disfmarker} there is a difference actually with {disfmarker} b between PLP and JRASTA is that {pause} JRASTA {pause} seems to {pause} perform better with the highly mismatched {pause} condition {pause} but slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse {pause} for the well matched condition . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I have a suggestion , actually , even though it 'll delay us slightly , would {disfmarker} would you mind {pause} running into the other room and making {pause} copies of this ? Cuz we 're all sort of {disfmarker} If we c if we could look at it , while we 're talking , I think it 'd be", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} {pause} Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll sing a song or dance or something while you {vocalsound} do it , too .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Go ahead . Ah , while you 're gone I 'll ask s some of my questions .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , this way and just slightly to the left , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The um {disfmarker} What was {disfmarker} Was this number {pause} forty or {disfmarker} It was roughly the same as this one , {pause} he said ? When you had the two language versus the three language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . That 's what he was saying .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's where he removed English ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It sometimes , actually , depends on what features you 're using .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} but i it sounds like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} He {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I mean . That 's interesting because {pause} it {disfmarker} it seems like what it 's saying is not so much that you got hurt {pause} uh because {pause} you {pause} uh didn't have so much representation of English , because in the other case you don't get hurt any more , at least when {pause} it seemed like uh it {disfmarker} it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but you have the same number of parameters representing it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . I wonder {disfmarker} were um all three of these nets {pause} using the same output ? This multi - language {pause} uh labelling ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He was using uh sixty - four phonemes from {pause} SAMPA .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So this would {disfmarker} {pause} From this you would say , \" well , it doesn't really matter if we put Finnish {pause} into {pause} the training of the neural net , {pause} if there 's {pause} gonna be , {pause} you know , Finnish in the test data . \" Right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} it sounds {disfmarker} {pause} I mean , we have to be careful , cuz we haven't gotten a good result yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And comparing different bad results can be {pause} tricky .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {pause} I think it does suggest that it 's not so much uh {pause} uh cross {pause} language as cross type of speech .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But we did {disfmarker} Oh yeah , the other thing I was asking him , though , is that I think that in the case {disfmarker} Yeah , you {disfmarker} you do have to be careful because of com compounded results . I think we got some earlier results {pause} in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you didn't have {pause} three , but you just had one {pause} language . So you trained on {pause} one type of digits and tested on another . Didn - Wasn't there something of that ? Where you , {pause} say , trained on Spanish and tested on {disfmarker} on TI - digits , or the other way around ? Something like that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I thought there was something like that , {pause} that he showed me {pause} last week . We 'll have to wait till we get {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would be interesting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , This may have been what I was asking before , Stephane , but {disfmarker} {pause} but , um , wasn't there something that you did , {pause} where you trained {pause} on one language and tested on another ? I mean no {disfmarker} no mixture but just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I 'll get it for you .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh , no , no .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We 've never just trained on one lang", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Training on a single language , you mean , and testing on the other one ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Not yet .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So the only {pause} task that 's similar to this is the training on two languages , and {comment} that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But we 've done a bunch of things where we just trained on one language . Right ? I mean , you haven't {disfmarker} you haven't done all your tests on multiple languages .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , No . Either thi this is test with {pause} uh the same language {pause} but from the broad data , or it 's test with {pause} uh different languages also from the broad data , excluding the {disfmarker} So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's three or {disfmarker} three and four .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "The early experiment that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Did you do different languages from digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . No . You mean {pause} training digits {pause} on one language and using the net {pause} to recognize on the other ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Digits on another language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "See , I thought you showed me something like that last week . You had a {disfmarker} you had a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , {pause} No , I don't think so .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um What {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "These numbers are uh {pause} ratio to baseline ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , I mean wha what 's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker} this chart {disfmarker} this table that we 're looking at {pause} is um , show is all testing for TI - digits , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Bigger is worse .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you have uh basically two {pause} uh parts .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This is error rate , I think .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Ratio .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No . {pause} No .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "The upper part is for TI - digits", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "and it 's divided in three {pause} rows {pause} of four {disfmarker} four rows each .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And the first four rows is well - matched , then the s the second group of four rows is mismatched , and {pause} finally highly mismatched . And then the lower part is for Italian and it 's the same {disfmarker} {pause} the same thing .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , so the upper part is training {pause} TI - digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the HTK results , I mean . So it 's {pause} HTK training testings {pause} with different kind of features", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and what appears in the {pause} uh left column is {pause} the networks that are used for doing this .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Uh Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , What was is that i What was it that you had {pause} done {pause} last week when you showed {disfmarker} Do you remember ? Wh - when you showed me {pause} the {disfmarker} your table last week ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It - It was part of these results . Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So where is the baseline {pause} for the TI - digits {pause} located in here ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You mean the HTK Aurora baseline ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's uh the one hundred number . It 's , well , all these numbers are the ratio {pause} with respect to the baseline .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah ! Ah , OK , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So this is word {disfmarker} word error rate , so a high number is bad .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is {pause} a word error rate ratio .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "OK , I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So , seventy point two means that {pause} we reduced the error rate uh by thirty {disfmarker} thirty percent .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , OK , gotcha .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , {vocalsound} so if we take", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh um let 's see PLP {pause} uh with on - line {pause} normalization and {pause} delta - del so that 's this thing you have circled here {pause} in the second column ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "um {pause} and \" multi - English \" refers to what ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "To TIMIT . Mmm . Then you have {pause} uh MF , {pause} MS and ME which are for French , Spanish and English . And , yeah . Actually I {disfmarker} {pause} I uh forgot to say that {pause} the multilingual net are trained {pause} on {pause} uh {pause} features without the s derivatives uh but with {pause} increased frame numbers . Mmm . And we can {disfmarker} we can see on the first line of the table that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it 's slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse when we don't use delta but it 's not {disfmarker} {pause} not that much .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So w w So , I 'm sorry . I missed that . What 's MF , MS and ME ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Multi - French , Multi - Spanish", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Multi - French , Multi - Spanish , and Multi - English .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh OK . So , it 's {pause} uh {pause} broader vocabulary . Then {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK so I think what I 'm {disfmarker} what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was {disfmarker} was {pause} there were some numbers I saw , I think , that included these multiple languages and it {disfmarker} and I was seeing {pause} that it got worse . I {disfmarker} I think that was all it was . You had some very limited results that {disfmarker} at that point", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "which showed {pause} having in these {disfmarker} these other languages . In fact it might have been just this last category , {pause} having two languages broad that were {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where English was removed . So that was cross language and the {disfmarker} and the result was quite poor . What I {disfmarker} {pause} we hadn't seen yet was that if you added in the English , it 's still poor .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um now , what 's the noise condition {pause} um {pause} of the training data {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Still poor .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , I think this is what you were explaining . The noise condition is the same {disfmarker} It 's the same uh Aurora noises uh , in all these cases {pause} for the training .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's not a {pause} statistical {disfmarker} sta a strong st {pause} statistically different {pause} noise characteristic between {pause} uh the training and test", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No these are the s s s same noises ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and yet we 're seeing some kind of effect {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah . At least {disfmarker} at least for the first {disfmarker} {pause} for the well - matched ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well matched condition .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's some kind of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an effect from having these {disfmarker} uh this broader coverage um Now I guess what we should try doing with this is try {pause} testing these on u this same sort of thing on {disfmarker} you probably must have this {pause} lined up to do . To try the same t {pause} with the exact same training , do testing on {pause} the other languages .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "On {disfmarker} on um {disfmarker} So . Um , oh I well , wait a minute . You have this here , for the Italian . That 's right . OK , so , {pause} So .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so for the Italian the results are {vocalsound} uh {pause} stranger um {pause} Mmm . So what appears is that perhaps Spanish is {pause} not very close to Italian because uh , well , {pause} when using the {disfmarker} the network trained only on Spanish it 's {disfmarker} {pause} the error rate is {pause} almost uh twice {pause} the baseline error rate .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , let 's see . Is there any difference in {disfmarker} So it 's in {pause} the uh {disfmarker} So you 're saying that {pause} when you train on English {pause} and {pause} uh {pause} and {disfmarker} and test on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , you don't have training on English testing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} another difference , is that the noise {disfmarker} the noises are different .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "In {disfmarker} in what ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , For {disfmarker} for the Italian part I mean the {pause} uh {pause} the um {pause} networks are trained with noise from {pause} Aurora {disfmarker} TI - digits ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Aurora - two .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the noise is different in th", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And perhaps the noise are {pause} quite different from the noises {pause} in the speech that Italian .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Do we have any um {pause} test sets {pause} uh in {pause} any other language that um have the same noise as in {pause} the Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm , no .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Can I ask something real quick ? In {disfmarker} in the upper part {disfmarker} {pause} in the English {pause} stuff , {pause} it looks like the very best number is sixty point nine ? and that 's in the uh {disfmarker} {pause} the third {pause} section in the upper part under PLP JRASTA , sort of the middle column ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I is that {pause} a noisy condition ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So that 's matched training ? Is that what that is ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} no , the third part , so it 's uh {pause} highly mismatched . So . Training and {pause} test noise are different .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} why do you get your best number in {disfmarker} Wouldn't you get your best number in the clean case ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's relative to the um {pause} baseline mismatching", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK so these are not {disfmarker} OK , alright , I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . And then {disfmarker} so , in the {disfmarker} in the um {disfmarker} {pause} in the {pause} non - mismatched clean case , {pause} your best one was under MFCC ? That sixty - one point four ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . {pause} But it 's not a clean case . It 's {pause} a noisy case but {pause} uh training and test noises are the same .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh ! So this upper third ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh that 's still noisy ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's always noisy basically ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and , {pause} well , the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ? Um {pause} So uh , I think this will take some {pause} looking at , thinking about . But , {pause} what is uh {disfmarker} what is currently running , that 's {disfmarker} uh , i that {disfmarker} just filling in the holes here or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} ? {comment} {pause} pretty much ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no we don't plan to fill the holes", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but {pause} actually there is something important , is that {pause} um we made a lot of assumption concerning the on - line normalization and we just noticed {pause} uh recently that {pause} uh the {pause} approach that we were using {pause} was not {pause} uh {pause} leading to very good results {pause} when we {pause} used the straight features to HTK . Um {pause} {pause} Mmm . So basically d {pause} if you look at the {disfmarker} at the left of the table , {pause} the first uh row , {pause} with eighty - six , one hundred , and forty - three and seventy - five , these are the results we obtained for Italian {pause} uh with {pause} straight {pause} mmm , PLP features {pause} using on - line normalization .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . And the , mmm {disfmarker} what 's {pause} in the table , just {pause} at the left of the PLP twelve {pause} on - line normalization column , so , the numbers seventy - nine , fifty - four and {pause} uh forty - two {pause} are the results obtained by uh Pratibha with {pause} uh his on - line normalization {disfmarker} uh her on - line normalization approach .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Where is that ? seventy - nine , fifty", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , it 's just sort of sitting right on the uh {disfmarker} the column line .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Fifty - one ? This {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Oh I see , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} uh Yeah . So these are the results of {pause} OGI with {pause} on - line normalization and straight features to HTK . And the previous result , eighty - six and so on , {pause} are with our {pause} features straight to HTK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So {pause} what we see that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} there is that um {pause} uh the way we were doing this was not correct , but {pause} still {pause} the networks {pause} are very good . When we use the networks {pause} our number are better that {pause} uh Pratibha results .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We improve .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So , do you know what was wrong with the on - line normalization , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . There were diff there were different things and {pause} basically , {pause} the first thing is the mmm , {pause} alpha uh {pause} value . So , the recursion {pause} uh {pause} part . um , {pause} I used point five percent , {pause} which was the default value in the {disfmarker} {pause} in the programs here . And Pratibha used five percent .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So it adapts more {pause} quickly", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um , but , yeah . I assume that this was not important because {pause} uh previous results from {disfmarker} from Dan and {disfmarker} show that basically {pause} the {pause} both {disfmarker} both values g give the same {disfmarker} same {pause} uh results . It was true on uh {pause} TI - digits but it 's not true on Italian .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , second thing is the initialization of the {pause} stuff . Actually , {pause} uh what we were doing is to start the recursion from the beginning of the {pause} utterance . And using initial values that are the global mean and variances {pause} measured across the whole database .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And Pratibha did something different is that he {disfmarker} uh she initialed the um values of the mean and variance {pause} by computing {pause} this on the {pause} twenty - five first frames of each utterance . Mmm . There were other minor differences , the fact that {pause} she used fifteen dissities instead s instead of thirteen , and that she used C - zero instead of log energy . Uh , but the main differences concerns the recursion . So . {pause} Uh , I changed the code uh and now we have a baseline that 's similar to the OGI baseline .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's slightly {pause} uh different because {pause} I don't exactly initialize the same way she does . Actually I start , {pause} mmm , I don't wait to a fifteen {disfmarker} twenty - five {disfmarker} twenty - five frames {pause} before computing a mean and the variance {pause} to e to {disfmarker} to start the recursion .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I use the on - line scheme and only start the re recursion after the twenty - five {disfmarker} {pause} twenty - fifth frame . But , well it 's similar . So {pause} uh I retrained {pause} the networks with {pause} these {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the networks are retaining with these new {pause} features .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So basically what I expect is that {pause} these numbers will a little bit go down but {pause} perhaps not {disfmarker} not so much", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because {pause} I think the neural networks learn perhaps {pause} to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "even if the features are not {pause} normalized . It {disfmarker} it will learn how to normalize and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , but I think that {pause} given the pressure of time we probably want to draw {disfmarker} because of that {pause} especially , we wanna draw some conclusions from this , do some reductions {pause} in what we 're looking at ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and make some strong decisions for what we 're gonna do testing on before next week . So do you {disfmarker} are you {disfmarker} w did you have something going on , on the side , with uh multi - band {pause} or {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on this ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} I", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No , I {disfmarker} we plan to start this uh so , act actually we have discussed uh {pause} @ @ um , these {disfmarker} what we could do {pause} more as a {disfmarker} as a research and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we were thinking perhaps that {pause} uh {pause} the way we use the tandem is not {disfmarker} Uh , well , there is basically perhaps a flaw in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the stuff because {pause} we {pause} trained the networks {disfmarker} If we trained the networks on the {disfmarker} on {pause} a language and a t or a specific {pause} task ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um , what we ask is {disfmarker} to the network {disfmarker} is to put the bound the decision boundaries somewhere in the space .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And uh {pause} mmm and ask the network to put one , {pause} at one side of the {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a particular phoneme at one side of the boundary {disfmarker} decision boundary and one for another phoneme at the other side . And {pause} so there is kind of reduction of the information there that 's not correct because if we change task {pause} and if the phonemes are not in the same context in the new task , {pause} obviously the {pause} decision boundaries are not {disfmarker} {pause} should not be at the same {pause} place .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I di", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But the way the feature gives {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the way the network gives the features is that it reduce completely the {disfmarker} {pause} it removes completely the information {disfmarker} {pause} a lot of information from the {disfmarker} the features {pause} by uh {pause} uh {pause} placing the decision boundaries at {pause} optimal places for {pause} one kind of {pause} data but {pause} this is not the case for another kind of data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's a trade - off ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ? Any - anyway go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . So uh what we were thinking about is perhaps {pause} um one way {pause} to solve this problem is increase the number of {pause} outputs of the neural networks . Doing something like , um {pause} um phonemes within context and , well , basically context dependent phonemes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Maybe . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think {pause} you could make {pause} the same argument , it 'd be just as legitimate , {pause} for hybrid systems {pause} as well . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah but , we know that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And in fact , {pause} th things get better with context dependent {pause} versions . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye - yeah but here it 's something different . We want to have features", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh well , {pause} um .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it 's still true {pause} that what you 're doing {pause} is you 're ignoring {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're coming up with something to represent , {pause} whether it 's a distribution , {pause} probability distribution or features , you 're coming up with a set of variables {pause} that are representing {pause} uh , {pause} things that vary w over context .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , and you 're {pause} putting it all together , ignoring the differences in context . That {disfmarker} that 's true {pause} for the hybrid system , it 's true for a tandem system . So , for that reason , when you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a hybrid system , {pause} when you incorporate context one way or another , {pause} you do get better scores .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ? But I {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a big deal {pause} to get that . I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of {disfmarker} And once you {disfmarker} the other thing is that once you represent {disfmarker} start representing more and more context {pause} it is {pause} uh {pause} much more {pause} um specific {pause} to a particular task in language . So um Uh , the {disfmarker} {pause} the acoustics associated with {pause} uh a particular context , for instance you may have some kinds of contexts that will never occur {pause} in one language and will occur frequently in the other , so the qu the issue of getting enough training {pause} for a particular kind of context becomes harder . We already actually don't have a huge amount of training data um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} mmm , I mean , {pause} the {disfmarker} the way we {disfmarker} we do it now is that we have a neural network and {pause} basically {pause} the net network is trained almost to give binary decisions .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And {pause} uh {disfmarker} binary decisions about phonemes . Nnn {disfmarker} Uh It 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Almost . But I mean it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does give a distribution .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {pause} it is true that if there 's two phones that are very similar , {pause} that {pause} uh {pause} the {disfmarker} {pause} i it may prefer one but it will {pause} give a reasonably high value to the other , too .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , sure but uh {pause} So basically it 's almost binary decisions and {pause} um the idea of using more {pause} classes is {pause} to {pause} get something that 's {pause} less binary decisions .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh no , but it would still be even more of a binary decision . It {disfmarker} it 'd be even more of one . Because then you would say {pause} that in {disfmarker} that this phone in this context is a one , {pause} but the same phone in a slightly different context is a zero .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "That would be even {disfmarker} even more distinct of a binary decision . I actually would have thought you 'd wanna go the other way and have fewer classes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , I mean for instance , the {disfmarker} the thing I was arguing for before , but again which I don't think we have time to try , {pause} is something in which you would modify the code so you could train to have several outputs on and use articulatory features", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "cuz then that would {disfmarker} that would go {disfmarker} {pause} that would be much broader and cover many different situations . But if you go to very very fine categories , it 's very {pause} binary .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah , perhaps you 're right , but you have more classes so {pause} you {disfmarker} you have more information in your features . So , {vocalsound} Um {pause} You have more information in the {pause} uh", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . True .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "posteriors vector um which means that {disfmarker} But still the information is relevant", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it 's information that helps to discriminate ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it 's possible to be able to discriminate {pause} among the phonemes in context .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's an interesting thought .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean we {disfmarker} we could disagree about it at length", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but the {disfmarker} the real thing is if you 're interested in it you 'll probably try it", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we 'll see . But {disfmarker} but what I 'm more concerned with now , as an operational level , is {pause} uh , you know ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "what do we do in four or five days ? Uh , and {disfmarker} {pause} so we have {pause} to be concerned {pause} with Are we gonna look at any combinations of things , you know once the nets get retrained so you have this problem out of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , are we going to look at {pause} multi - band ? Are we gonna look at combinations of things ? Uh , what questions are we gonna ask , uh now that , I mean , {pause} we should probably turn shortly to this O G I note . Um , how are we going to {pause} combine {pause} with what they 've been focusing on ? Uh , {pause} Uh we haven't been doing any of the L D A RASTA sort of thing .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And they , although they don't talk about it in this note , um , {pause} there 's um , {pause} the issue of the {pause} um Mu law {pause} business {pause} uh {pause} versus the logarithm , um , {pause} so .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So what i what is going on right now ? What 's right {disfmarker} you 've got {pause} nets retraining , Are there {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any H T K {pause} trainings {disfmarker} testings going on ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "N", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm trying the HTK with eh , {pause} PLP twelve on - line delta - delta and MSG filter {pause} together .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "The combination , I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The combination , yeah . But I haven't result {vocalsound} at this moment .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "MSG and {disfmarker} and PLP .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . ", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "And is this with the revised {pause} on - line normalization ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye - Uh , with the old {pause} older ,", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Old one . So it 's using all the nets for that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "but again we have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} We have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} maybe it 's not making too much difference ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {pause} We can know soon .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh so there is this combination , yeah . Working on combination obviously .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Um , I will start work on multi - band . And {pause} we {pause} plan to work also on the idea of using both {pause} features {pause} and net outputs .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Um . And {pause} we think that {pause} with this approach perhaps {pause} we could reduce the number of outputs of the neural network . Um , So , get simpler networks , because we still have the features . So we have um {pause} come up with um {pause} different kind of {pause} broad phonetic categories . And we have {disfmarker} Basically we have three {pause} types of broad phonetic classes . Well , something using place of articulation which {disfmarker} which leads to {pause} nine , I think , {pause} broad classes . Uh , another which is based on manner , which is {disfmarker} is also something like nine classes . And then , {pause} something that combine both , and we have {pause} twenty f {pause} twenty - five ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Twenty - seven .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Twenty - seven broad classes . So like , uh , oh , I don't know , like back vowels , front vowels .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So what you do {disfmarker} um I just wanna understand", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um For the moments we do not {disfmarker} don't have nets ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so {pause} You have two net or three nets ? Was this ? How many {disfmarker} how many nets do you have ? No nets .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean , {pause} It 's just {disfmarker} Were we just changing {pause} the labels to retrain nets {pause} with fewer out outputs .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Begin to work in this . We are @ @ .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Right . But {disfmarker} but I didn't understand {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} the software currently just has {disfmarker} uh a {disfmarker} allows for I think , the one {disfmarker} one hot output . So you 're having multiple nets and combining them , or {disfmarker} ? Uh , how are you {disfmarker} how are you coming up with {disfmarker} If you say {pause} uh {pause} If you have a place {pause} characteristic and a manner characteristic , how do you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It - It 's the single net ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I think they have one output .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's just one net .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's one net with {pause} um {pause} twenty - seven outputs", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "if we have twenty - seven classes ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I see . I see , OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's basically a standard net with fewer {pause} classes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So you 're sort of going the other way of what you were saying a bit ago instead of {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah . B b including the features , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But including the features .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I don't think this {pause} will work {pause} alone . I think it will get worse because Well , I believe the effect that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of too reducing too much the information is {pause} basically {disfmarker} basically what happens", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But you think if you include that {pause} plus the other features ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah , because {pause} there is perhaps one important thing that the net {pause} brings , and OGI show showed that , is {pause} the distinction between {pause} sp speech and silence Because these nets are trained on well - controlled condition . I mean the labels are obtained on clean speech , and we add noise after . So this is one thing And But perhaps , something intermediary using also {pause} some broad classes could {disfmarker} could bring so much more information . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so again then we have these broad classes and {disfmarker} well , somewhat broad . I mean , it 's twenty - seven instead of sixty - four , {pause} basically . And you have the original features .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Which are PLP , or something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And then uh , just to remind me , all of that goes {pause} into {disfmarker} uh , that all of that is transformed by uh , uh , K - KL or something , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . There will probably be ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mu .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "yeah , one single KL to transform everything", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or {vocalsound} {pause} uh ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No transform the PLP", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "per", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and only transform the other I 'm not sure .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Well no ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "This is {pause} still something {pause} that", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah , we {pause} don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's a question of whether you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two e @ @ it 's one .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . Whether you would transform together or just one . Yeah . Might wanna try it both ways . But that 's interesting . So that 's something that you 're {disfmarker} you haven't trained yet but are preparing to train , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um {pause} {pause} Yeah , so I think Hynek will be here Monday .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": " Monday or Tuesday . So", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I think , you know , we need to {pause} choose the {disfmarker} choose the experiments carefully , so we can get uh key {disfmarker} {pause} key questions answered {pause} uh before then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and {pause} leave other ones aside even if it {pause} leaves incomplete {pause} tables {vocalsound} {pause} someplace , uh {pause} uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really time to {disfmarker} {pause} time to choose .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , let me pass this out , {pause} by the way . Um These are {disfmarker} Did {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} {pause} did I interrupt you ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have one .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Were there other things that you wanted to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no . I don't think so .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , thanks .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Ah ! {pause} OK . {pause} OK , we have {pause} lots of them .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We have one . ", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "OK , so {vocalsound} um , Something I asked {disfmarker} So they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing {pause} the {disfmarker} the VAD I guess they mean voice activity detection So again , it 's the silence {disfmarker} So they 've just trained up a net {pause} which has two outputs , I believe . Um {vocalsound} I asked uh {pause} Hynek whether {disfmarker} I haven't talked to Sunil {disfmarker} I asked Hynek whether {pause} they compared that to {pause} just taking the nets we already had {pause} and summing up the probabilities .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} To get the speech {disfmarker} voice activity detection , or else just using the silence , {pause} if there 's only one {pause} silence output . Um {pause} And , he didn't think they had , um . But on the other hand , maybe they can get by with a smaller net and {pause} maybe {pause} sometimes you don't run the other , maybe there 's a computational advantage to having a separate net , anyway .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So um Their uh {disfmarker} {pause} the results look pretty good . Um , {pause} I mean , not uniformly .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , there 's a {disfmarker} an example or two {pause} that you can find , where it made it slightly worse , but {pause} uh in {disfmarker} in all but a couple {pause} examples .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But they have a question of the result . Um how are trained the {disfmarker} the LDA filter ? How obtained the LDA filter ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I I 'm sorry . I don't understand your question .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes , um the LDA filter {pause} needs some {pause} training set {pause} to obtain the filter . Maybe I don't know exactly how {pause} they are obtained .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It 's on {pause} training .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Training , with the training test of each {disfmarker} You understand me ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh for example , {pause} LDA filter {pause} need a set of {disfmarker} {pause} a set of training {pause} to obtain the filter .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And maybe {pause} for the Italian , for the TD {pause} TE on for Finnish , these filter are {disfmarker} are obtained with their own training set .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes , I don't know . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} so that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very good question , then {disfmarker} now that it {disfmarker} {pause} I understand it . It 's \" yeah , where does the LDA come from ? \" In the {disfmarker} In {pause} earlier experiments , they had taken LDA {pause} from a completely different database , right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , because maybe it the same situation that the neural network training with their own", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "set .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So that 's a good question . Where does it come from ? Yeah , I don't know . Um , {pause} but uh to tell you the {pause} truth , I wasn't actually looking at the LDA so much when I {disfmarker} I was looking at it I was {pause} mostly thinking about the {disfmarker} {pause} the VAD . And um , it ap {pause} it ap Oh what does {disfmarker} what does ASP ? Oh that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The features , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't understand also", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It says \" baseline ASP \" .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "what is {disfmarker} {pause} what is the difference between ASP and uh baseline over ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "ASP .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Anybody know {pause} any {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh . There it is .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um Cuz there 's \" baseline Aurora \" {pause} above it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And it 's {disfmarker} This is mostly better than baseline , although in some cases it 's a little worse , in a couple cases .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , it says baseline ASP is twenty - three mill {pause} minus thirteen .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , it says what it is . But I don't how that 's different {pause} from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "From the baseline . {comment} OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I think this was {disfmarker} {pause} I think this is the same point we were at when {disfmarker} when we were up in Oregon .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} {pause} I think it 's the C - zero {disfmarker} using C - zero instead of log energy .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah , OK , mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's this .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh . OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It should be that , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "They s they say in here that the VAD is not used as an additional feature .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Shouldn't it be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Does {disfmarker} does anybody know how they 're using it ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker} so what they 're doing here is , {pause} i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "if you look down at the block diagram , {pause} um , {pause} they estimate {disfmarker} they get a {disfmarker} {pause} they get an estimate {pause} of whether it 's speech or silence ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then they have a median filter of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And so um , {pause} basically they 're trying to find stretches . The median filter is enforcing a {disfmarker} i it having some continuity .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You find stretches where the {pause} combination of the {pause} frame wise VAD and the {disfmarker} {pause} the median filter say that there 's a stretch of silence . And then it 's going through and just throwing the data away .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't understand . You mean it 's throwing out frames ? Before {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's throwing out chunks of frames , yeah . There 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the median filter is enforcing that it 's not gonna be single cases of frames , or isolated frames .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's throwing out frames and the thing is {pause} um , {pause} what I don't understand is how they 're doing this with H T", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's what I was just gonna ask .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "How can you just throw out frames ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , you {disfmarker} you can ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "i", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ? I mean y you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "it stretches again . For single frames I think it would be pretty hard .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But if you say speech starts here , speech ends there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , you can basically remove the {disfmarker} the frames from the feature {disfmarker} feature files .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so I mean in the {disfmarker} i i in the {disfmarker} in the decoding , you 're saying that we 're gonna decode from here to here .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I t", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're treating it , {pause} you know , like uh {disfmarker} well , it 's not isolated word , but {disfmarker} but connected , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "In the text they say that this {disfmarker} this is a tentative block diagram of a possible configuration we could think of . So that sort of sounds like they 're not doing that yet .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well . {pause} No they {disfmarker} they have numbers though , right ? So I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing something like that . I think that they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} I think what I mean by tha that is they 're trying to come up with a block diagram that 's plausible for the standard . In other words , it 's {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean from the point of view of {disfmarker} of uh reducing the number of bits you have to transmit it 's not a bad idea to detect silence anyway .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I 'm just wondering what exactly did they do up in this table if it wasn't this .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . But it 's {disfmarker} the thing is it 's that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Certainly it would be tricky about it intrans in transmitting voice , {pause} uh uh for listening to , is that these kinds of things {pause} uh cut {pause} speech off a lot .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right ? And so {pause} um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Plus it 's gonna introduce delays .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It does introduce delays but they 're claiming that it 's {disfmarker} it 's within the {disfmarker} {pause} the boundaries of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And the LDA introduces delays , and b {pause} what he 's suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it doesn't introduce {pause} uh , any more delay . I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same {pause} time the LDA {pause} down here {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} Wh what 's the difference between TLDA and SLDA ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Temporal and spectral .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah , thank you .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Temporal LDA .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , you would know that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So um . The temporal LDA does in fact include the same {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} I think he {disfmarker} well , by {disfmarker} by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means {pause} if you construct it this way , this {disfmarker} this delay would work in that way", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then it 'd be OK . They {disfmarker} they clearly did actually remove {pause} silent sections in order {disfmarker} because they {pause} got these {pause} word error rate {pause} results . So um I think that it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to do that in this because in fact , it 's gonna give a better word error result and therefore will help within an evaluation . Whereas to whether this would actually be in a final standard , I don't know . Um . Uh , as you know , part of the problem with evaluation right now is that the {pause} word models are pretty bad and nobody wants {disfmarker} {pause} has {disfmarker} has approached improving them . So {pause} it 's possible that a lot of the problems {pause} with so many insertions and so forth would go away if they were better word models {pause} to begin with . So {pause} this might just be a temporary thing . But {disfmarker} But , on the other hand , and maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's a decent idea . So um The question we 're gonna wanna go {pause} through next week when Hynek shows up I guess is given that we 've been {disfmarker} if you look at what we 've been trying , we 're uh looking at {pause} uh , by then I guess , combinations of features and multi - band Uh , and we 've been looking at {pause} cross - language , cross {pause} task {pause} issues . And they 've been not so much looking at {pause} the cross task uh multiple language issues . But they 've been looking at uh {disfmarker} {pause} at these issues . At the on - line normalization and the uh {pause} voice activity detection . And I guess when he comes here we 're gonna have to start deciding about {pause} um what do we choose {pause} from what we 've looked at {pause} to um blend with {pause} some group of things in what they 've looked at And once we choose that , {pause} how do we split up the {pause} effort ? Uh , because we still have {disfmarker} even once we choose , {pause} we 've still got {pause} uh another {pause} month or so , I mean there 's holidays in the way , but {disfmarker} but uh {pause} I think the evaluation data comes January thirty - first so there 's still a fair amount of time {pause} to do things together it 's just that they probably should be somewhat more coherent between the two sites {pause} in that {disfmarker} that amount of time .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "When they removed the silence frames , did they insert some kind of a marker so that the recognizer knows it 's {disfmarker} {pause} knows when it 's time to back trace or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , see they , I {disfmarker} I think they 're Um . I don't know the {disfmarker} {pause} the specifics of how they 're doing it . They 're {disfmarker} {pause} they 're getting around the way the recognizer works because they 're not allowed to {pause} um , change the scripts {pause} for the recognizer , {pause} I believe .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , right . Maybe they 're just inserting some nummy frames or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Uh . Uh , you know that 's what I had thought . But I don't {disfmarker} I don't think they are .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean that 's {disfmarker} sort of what {disfmarker} the way I had imagined would happen is that on the other side , yeah you p put some low level noise or something . Probably don't want all zeros .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Most recognizers don't like zeros but {vocalsound} but {pause} you know , {pause} put some epsilon in or some rand", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "sorry epsilon random variable {pause} in or something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Some constant vector . I mean i w Or something {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Maybe not a constant but it doesn't , uh {disfmarker} don't like to divide by the variance of that , but I mean it 's", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's right . But something that {disfmarker} what I mean is something that is {pause} very distinguishable from {pause} speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So that the {disfmarker} the silence model in HTK will always pick it up .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} that 's what I thought they would do . or else , uh {pause} uh maybe there is some indicator to tell it to start and stop , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But whatever they did , I mean they have to play within the rules of this specific evaluation .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We c we can find out .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Cuz you gotta do something . Otherwise , if it 's just a bunch of speech , stuck together {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No they 're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It would do badly", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and it didn't so badly , right ? So they did something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh . So , OK , So I think {pause} this brings me up to date a bit . It hopefully brings other {pause} people up to date a bit . And um Um {pause} I think {disfmarker} Uh , I wanna look at these numbers off - line a little bit and think about it and {disfmarker} {pause} and talk with everybody uh , {pause} outside of this meeting . Um , but uh No I mean it sounds like {disfmarker} I mean {pause} there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there are the usual number of {disfmarker} of {pause} little {disfmarker} little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they 're getting ironed out . And now we 're {pause} seem to be kind of in a position to actually {pause} uh , {pause} look at stuff and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and compare things . So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty good . Um {pause} I don't know what the {disfmarker} One of the things I wonder about , {pause} coming back to the first results you talked about , is {disfmarker} is {pause} how much , {pause} uh {pause} things could be helped {pause} by more parameters . And uh {disfmarker} {pause} And uh how many more parameters we can afford to have , {vocalsound} {pause} in terms of the uh computational limits . Because anyway when we go to {pause} twice as much data {pause} and have the same number of parameters , particularly when it 's twice as much data and it 's quite diverse , um , I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , just have a bigger hidden layer . Uh But {disfmarker} I doubt it would {pause} help by forty per cent . But {vocalsound} {pause} but uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Just curious . How are we doing on the {pause} resources ? Disk , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think we 're alright ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um , {pause} not much problems with that .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Computation ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well this table took uh {pause} more than five days to get back .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , well .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Are {disfmarker} were you folks using Gin ? That 's a {disfmarker} that just died , you know ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm , no . You were using Gin {comment} perhaps , yeah ? No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No ? Oh , that 's good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It just died .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , {pause} we 're gonna get a replacement {pause} server that 'll be a faster server , {pause} actually .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} It 's a {pause} seven hundred fifty megahertz uh SUN", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm . {comment} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {pause} But it won't be installed for {pause} a little while .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Tonic .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "U Go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Do we {disfmarker} Do we have that big new IBM machine the , I think in th", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "We have the {pause} little tiny IBM machine {vocalsound} {pause} that might someday grow up to be a big {pause} IBM machine . It 's got s slots for eight , uh IBM was donating five , I think we only got two so far , processors . We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors . They ended up being five fifty . So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz , we ended up with two {pause} that are five hundred and fifty megahertz . And more are supposed to come soon and there 's only a moderate amount of dat of memory . So I don't think {pause} anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to {pause} spend much time {pause} uh {pause} with it , but uh {vocalsound} Hopefully , {pause} they 'll get us some more {pause} parts , soon and {disfmarker} Uh , yeah , I think that 'll be {disfmarker} once we get it populated , {pause} that 'll be a nice machine . I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there . And uh {disfmarker} and uh a nice amount of memory . Uh so it 'll be a pr pretty fast Linux machine .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And if we can do things on Linux , {pause} some of the machines we have going already , like Swede ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um It seems pretty fast .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I think Fudge is pretty fast too .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean you can check with uh {pause} Dave Johnson . I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} I think the machine is just sitting there . And it does have two processors , you know and {disfmarker} {pause} Somebody could do {disfmarker} {pause} you know , uh , check out {pause} uh the multi - threading {pause} libraries . And {pause} I mean i it 's possible that the {disfmarker} I mean , I guess the prudent thing to do would be for somebody to do the work on {disfmarker} {pause} on getting our code running {pause} on that machine with two processors {pause} even though there aren't five or eight . There 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's gonna be debugging hassles and then we 'd be set for when we did have five or eight , to have it really be useful . But . {pause} Notice how I said somebody and {vocalsound} turned my head your direction . That 's one thing you don't get in these recordings . You don't get the {disfmarker} {pause} don't get the visuals but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I is it um {pause} mostly um the neural network trainings that are {pause} um slowing us down or the HTK runs that are slowing us down ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Uh , I think yes . Uh , {vocalsound} Isn't that right ? I mean I think you 're {disfmarker} you 're sort of held up by both , right ? If the {disfmarker} if the neural net trainings were a hundred times faster {pause} you still wouldn't {pause} be anything {disfmarker} running through these a hundred times faster because you 'd {pause} be stuck by the HTK trainings ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But if the HTK {disfmarker} I mean I think they 're both {disfmarker} It sounded like they were roughly equal ? Is that about right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Because , um {pause} I think that 'll be running Linux , and Sw - Swede and Fudge are already running Linux so , {pause} um I could try to get {pause} um the train the neural network trainings or the HTK stuff running under Linux , and to start with I 'm {pause} wondering which one I should pick first .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Uh , probably the neural net cuz it 's probably {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's um {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . They both {disfmarker} HTK we use for {pause} um {pause} this Aurora stuff Um {pause} Um , I think {pause} It 's not clear yet what we 're gonna use {pause} for trainings uh {disfmarker} Well , {pause} there 's the trainings uh {disfmarker} is it the training that takes the time , or the decoding ? Uh , is it about equal {pause} between the two ? For {disfmarker} for Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "For HTK ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "For {disfmarker} Yeah . For the Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh Training is longer .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . Well , I don't know how we can {disfmarker} I don't know how to {disfmarker} Do we have HTK source ? Is that {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You would think that would fairly trivially {disfmarker} the training would , anyway , th the testing {pause} uh I don't {disfmarker} I don't {pause} think would {pause} parallelize all that well . But I think {pause} that {pause} you could {pause} certainly do d um , {pause} distributed , sort of {disfmarker} {pause} Ah , no , it 's the {disfmarker} {pause} each individual {pause} sentence is pretty tricky to parallelize . But you could split up the sentences in a test set .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "They have a {disfmarker} they have a thing for doing that and th they have for awhile , in H T And you can parallelize the training .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And run it on several machines", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Aha !", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and it just basically keeps counts . And there 's something {disfmarker} {pause} a final {pause} thing that you run and it accumulates all the counts together .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't what their scripts are {pause} set up to do for the Aurora stuff , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Something that we haven't really settled on yet is other than {pause} this Aurora stuff , {pause} uh what do we do , large vocabulary {pause} training slash testing {pause} for uh tandem systems . Cuz we hadn't really done much with tandem systems for larger stuff . Cuz we had this one collaboration with CMU and we used SPHINX . Uh , we 're also gonna be collaborating with SRI and we have their {disfmarker} have theirs . Um {pause} So {pause} I don't know Um . So I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} the advantage of going with the neural net thing is that we 're gonna use the neural net trainings , no matter what , for a lot of the things we 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "whereas , w exactly which HMM {disfmarker} Gaussian - mixture - based HMM thing we use is gonna depend uh So with that , maybe we should uh {vocalsound} go to our {nonvocalsound} digit recitation task . And , it 's about eleven fifty . Canned . Uh , I can {disfmarker} I can start over here . Great , uh , could you give Adam a call . Tell him to He 's at two nine seven seven .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . I think we can {vocalsound} @ @ You know Herve 's coming tomorrow , right ? Herve will be giving a talk , yeah , talk at eleven . Did uh , did everybody sign these consent Er everybody Has everyone signed a consent form before , on previous meetings ? You don't have to do it again each time Yes . microphones off", "speaker": "Professor B" } ]

[ { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I think I 'm zero .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wow ! Unprecedented .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hello , hello , hello , hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Wh - what causes the crash ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Did you fix something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Five , five .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Hello , hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe it 's the turning {disfmarker} turning off and turning on of the mike , right ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh , you think that 's you ? Oh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Aaa - aaa - aaa .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , mine 's working .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . That 's me .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . OK . So , um I guess we are {pause} um {pause} gonna do the digits at the end . Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Channel {disfmarker} channel three , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Channel two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm , channel five ? Doesn't work ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's the mike number there , uh {pause} Uh , mike number five , and {pause} channel {disfmarker} channel four .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is it written on her sheet , I believe .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No ? Ah ,", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mike four .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Watch this .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "era el cuatro .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yep , that 's me .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "But , channel", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "This is you .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . I saw that . Ah {disfmarker} yeah , it 's OK .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah . And I 'm channel uh two I think ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ooo .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "or channel {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think I 'm channel two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , I 'm channel {disfmarker} must be channel one . Channel one ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Channel {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I decided to talk about that .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes , OK . OK . So uh {pause} I also copied uh the results that we all got in the mail I think from uh {disfmarker} {pause} from OGI and we 'll go {disfmarker} go through them also . So where are we on {disfmarker} {pause} on uh {vocalsound} {pause} our runs ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh so . {pause} uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} So {pause} As I was already said , we {disfmarker} we mainly focused on uh four kind of features .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Excuse me .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The PLP , the PLP with JRASTA , the MSG , and the MFCC from the baseline Aurora .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , and we focused for the {disfmarker} the test part on the English and the Italian . Um . We 've trained uh several neural networks on {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on the TI - digits English {pause} and on the Italian data and also on the broad uh {pause} English uh French and uh Spanish databases . Mmm , so there 's our result tables here , for the tandem approach , and um , actually what we {disfmarker} we @ @ observed is that if the network is trained on the task data it works pretty well .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . Our {disfmarker} our uh {disfmarker} {pause} There 's a {disfmarker} {pause} We 're pausing for a photo {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Chicken on the grill . Try that corner .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "How about over th from the front of the room ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's longer .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "We 're pausing for a photo opportunity here . Uh . {vocalsound} Uh . So .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh wait wait wait wait wait . Wait .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Get out of the {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hold on . Hold on .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Let me give you a black screen .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "He 's facing this way . What ? OK , this {disfmarker} this would be a {pause} good section for our silence detection .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um Oh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Musical chairs everybody !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . So um , {pause} you were saying {pause} about the training data {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , so if the network is trained on the task data um {pause} tandem works pretty well . And uh actually we have uh , results are similar Only on ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Do you mean if it 's trained only on {disfmarker} On data from just that task ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "that language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Just that task . But actually we didn't train network on {pause} uh both types of data I mean {pause} uh {pause} phonetically ba phonetically balanced uh data and task data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We only did either task {disfmarker} task data or {pause} uh broad {pause} data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um {pause} Yeah . So ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So how {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} clearly it 's gonna be good then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So what 's th", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but the question is how much {pause} worse is it {pause} if you have broad data ? I mean , {pause} my assump From what I saw from the earlier results , uh I guess last week , {pause} was that um , {pause} if you {pause} trained on one language and tested on another , say , that {pause} the results were {disfmarker} were relatively poor .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but the question is if you train on one language {pause} but you have a broad coverage {pause} and then test in another , {pause} does that {disfmarker} {pause} is that improve things {pause} i c in comparison ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If we use the same language ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , no , no . Different lang So {pause} um {pause} If you train on TI - digits {pause} and test on Italian digits , {pause} you do poorly , {pause} let 's say .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't have the numbers in front of me ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah but I did not uh do that .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so I 'm just imagining . E So , you didn't train on {pause} TIMIT and test on {disfmarker} {pause} on Italian digits , say ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} No , we did four {disfmarker} four kind of {disfmarker} of testing , actually . The first testing is {pause} with task data {disfmarker} So , with nets trained on task data . So for Italian on the Italian speech @ @ . The second test is trained on a single language um with broad database , but the same language as the t task data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But for Italian we choose Spanish which {pause} we assume is close to Italian . The third test is by using , um the three language database", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "W which in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and the fourth is", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It has three languages . That 's including the w the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "This includes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "the one that it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "In", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {pause} not digits . I mean it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "The three languages {pause} is not digits ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "it 's the broad {pause} data . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah And the fourth test is uh {pause} excluding from these three languages the language {pause} that is {pause} the task language .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK , yeah , so , that is what I wanted to know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I just wasn't saying it very well , I guess .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah . So um {pause} for uh TI - digits for ins example {pause} uh when we go from TI - digits training to {pause} TIMIT training {pause} uh we lose {pause} uh around ten percent , uh . The error rate increase u of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of ten percent , relative .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Relative . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So this is not so bad . And then when we jump to the multilingual data it 's uh it become worse and , well Around uh , let 's say , {pause} twenty perc twenty percent further .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ab - about how much ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Twenty percent further ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Twenty to {disfmarker} to thirty percent further . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And so , remind me , the multilingual stuff is just the broad data . Right ? It 's not the digits .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So it 's the combination of {pause} two things there . It 's {pause} removing the {pause} task specific {pause} training and {pause} it 's adding other languages .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But the first step is al already removing the task s specific from {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Already , right right right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So they were sort of building {pause} here ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And we lose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh {pause} So , basically when it 's trained on the {disfmarker} the multilingual broad data {pause} um or number {disfmarker} so , the {disfmarker} the {pause} ratio of our error rates uh with the {pause} baseline error rate is around {pause} uh one point one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} And it 's something like one point three of {disfmarker} of the {pause} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I i if you compare everything to the first case at the baseline , you get something like one point one for the {disfmarker} for the using the same language but a different task , and something like one point three {pause} for three {disfmarker} three languages {pause} broad stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No no no . Uh same language we are at uh {disfmarker} for at English at O point eight . So it improves , {pause} compared to the baseline . But {disfmarker} So . Le - let me .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Tas - task data", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I meant something different by baseline", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "we are u Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So let me {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} Um , {pause} so , {pause} um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , fine . Let 's {disfmarker} let 's use the conventional meaning of baseline .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} By baseline here I meant {pause} uh using the task specific data .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , the f Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {pause} uh , because that 's what you were just doing with this ten percent .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I was just {disfmarker} I just trying to understand that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So if we call {pause} a factor of w just one , just normalized to one , the word error rate {pause} that you have {pause} for using TI - digits as {disfmarker} as {pause} training and TI - digits as test ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh different words , I 'm sure ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {pause} but uh , uh the same {pause} task and so on .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "If we call that \" one \" , {pause} then what you 're saying is {pause} that the word error rate {pause} for the same language but using {pause} uh different training data than you 're testing on , say TIMIT and so forth , {pause} it 's one point one .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , it 's around one point one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . And if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you {pause} do {pause} go to {pause} three languages including the English , {pause} it 's something like one point three . That 's what you were just saying , I think .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye Uh , more actually .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "One point four ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If I {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , it 's an additional thirty percent .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What would you say ? Around one point four", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And if you exclude {pause} English , {pause} from this combination , what 's that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If we exclude English , {pause} um {pause} there is {pause} not much difference with the {pause} data with English .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Aha !", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "That 's interesting . {pause} That 's interesting . Do you see ? Because {disfmarker} Uh ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} No , that {disfmarker} that 's important . So what {disfmarker} what it 's saying here is just that \" yes , there is a reduction {pause} in performance , {pause} when you don't {pause} um {pause} have the s {pause} when you don't have {pause} um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Task data .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wait a minute , th th the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , actually {pause} it 's interesting . So it 's {disfmarker} So when you go to a different task , there 's actually not so {pause} different . It 's when you went to these {disfmarker} So what 's the difference between two and three ? Between the one point one case and the one point four case ? I 'm confused .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's multilingual .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . The only difference it 's {disfmarker} is that it 's multilingual {disfmarker} Um", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Cuz in both {disfmarker} in both {disfmarker} both of those cases , you don't have the same task .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah sure .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So is {disfmarker} is the training data for the {disfmarker} for this one point four case {disfmarker} does it include the training data for the one point one case ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , a fraction of it .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "A part of it , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "How m how much bigger is it ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um {pause} It 's two times ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , um .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "actually ? Yeah . Um . The English data {disfmarker} {pause} No , the multilingual databases are two times the {pause} broad English {pause} data . We just wanted to keep this , w well , not too huge . So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So it 's two times , but it includes the {disfmarker} but it includes the broad English data .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think so . Do you {disfmarker} Uh , Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the broad English data is what you got this one point one {pause} with . So that 's TIMIT basically right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So it 's band - limited TIMIT . This is all eight kilohertz sampling .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Downs Right .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you have band - limited TIMIT , {pause} gave you uh almost as good as a result as using TI - digits {pause} on a TI - digits test . OK ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um {pause} and {pause} um But , {pause} when you add in more training data but keep the neural net the same size , {pause} it {pause} um performs worse on the TI - digits . OK , now all of this is {disfmarker} {pause} This is noisy {pause} TI - digits , I assume ? Both training and test ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Um OK . Well . {pause} We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we may just need to uh {disfmarker} So I mean it 's interesting that h going to a different {disfmarker} different task didn't seem to hurt us that much , and going to a different language um It doesn't seem to matter {disfmarker} The difference between three and four is not particularly great , so that means that {pause} whether you have the language in or not is not such a big deal .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It sounds like um {pause} uh {pause} we may need to have more {pause} of uh things that are similar to a target language or {disfmarker} I mean . {pause} You have the same number of parameters in the neural net , you haven't increased the size of the neural net , and maybe there 's just {disfmarker} {pause} just not enough {pause} complexity to it to represent {pause} the variab increased variability in the {disfmarker} in the training set . That {disfmarker} that could be . Um {pause} So , what about {disfmarker} So these are results with {pause} uh th {pause} that you 're describing now , that {pause} they are pretty similar for the different features or {disfmarker} {pause} or uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , let me check . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . This was for the PLP ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um . The {disfmarker} Yeah . For the PLP with JRASTA the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} This is quite the same {pause} tendency , {pause} with a slight increase of the error rate , {pause} uh if we go to {disfmarker} to TIMIT . And then it 's {disfmarker} it gets worse with the multilingual . Um . Yeah . There {disfmarker} there is a difference actually with {disfmarker} b between PLP and JRASTA is that {pause} JRASTA {pause} seems to {pause} perform better with the highly mismatched {pause} condition {pause} but slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse {pause} for the well matched condition . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I have a suggestion , actually , even though it 'll delay us slightly , would {disfmarker} would you mind {pause} running into the other room and making {pause} copies of this ? Cuz we 're all sort of {disfmarker} If we c if we could look at it , while we 're talking , I think it 'd be", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} {pause} Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll sing a song or dance or something while you {vocalsound} do it , too .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Go ahead . Ah , while you 're gone I 'll ask s some of my questions .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , this way and just slightly to the left , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The um {disfmarker} What was {disfmarker} Was this number {pause} forty or {disfmarker} It was roughly the same as this one , {pause} he said ? When you had the two language versus the three language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . That 's what he was saying .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's where he removed English ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It sometimes , actually , depends on what features you 're using .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} but i it sounds like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} He {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I mean . That 's interesting because {pause} it {disfmarker} it seems like what it 's saying is not so much that you got hurt {pause} uh because {pause} you {pause} uh didn't have so much representation of English , because in the other case you don't get hurt any more , at least when {pause} it seemed like uh it {disfmarker} it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but you have the same number of parameters representing it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . I wonder {disfmarker} were um all three of these nets {pause} using the same output ? This multi - language {pause} uh labelling ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He was using uh sixty - four phonemes from {pause} SAMPA .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So this would {disfmarker} {pause} From this you would say , \" well , it doesn't really matter if we put Finnish {pause} into {pause} the training of the neural net , {pause} if there 's {pause} gonna be , {pause} you know , Finnish in the test data . \" Right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} it sounds {disfmarker} {pause} I mean , we have to be careful , cuz we haven't gotten a good result yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And comparing different bad results can be {pause} tricky .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {pause} I think it does suggest that it 's not so much uh {pause} uh cross {pause} language as cross type of speech .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But we did {disfmarker} Oh yeah , the other thing I was asking him , though , is that I think that in the case {disfmarker} Yeah , you {disfmarker} you do have to be careful because of com compounded results . I think we got some earlier results {pause} in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you didn't have {pause} three , but you just had one {pause} language . So you trained on {pause} one type of digits and tested on another . Didn - Wasn't there something of that ? Where you , {pause} say , trained on Spanish and tested on {disfmarker} on TI - digits , or the other way around ? Something like that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I thought there was something like that , {pause} that he showed me {pause} last week . We 'll have to wait till we get {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would be interesting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , This may have been what I was asking before , Stephane , but {disfmarker} {pause} but , um , wasn't there something that you did , {pause} where you trained {pause} on one language and tested on another ? I mean no {disfmarker} no mixture but just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I 'll get it for you .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh , no , no .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We 've never just trained on one lang", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Training on a single language , you mean , and testing on the other one ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Not yet .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So the only {pause} task that 's similar to this is the training on two languages , and {comment} that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But we 've done a bunch of things where we just trained on one language . Right ? I mean , you haven't {disfmarker} you haven't done all your tests on multiple languages .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , No . Either thi this is test with {pause} uh the same language {pause} but from the broad data , or it 's test with {pause} uh different languages also from the broad data , excluding the {disfmarker} So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's three or {disfmarker} three and four .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "The early experiment that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Did you do different languages from digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . No . You mean {pause} training digits {pause} on one language and using the net {pause} to recognize on the other ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Digits on another language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "See , I thought you showed me something like that last week . You had a {disfmarker} you had a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , {pause} No , I don't think so .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um What {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "These numbers are uh {pause} ratio to baseline ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , I mean wha what 's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker} this chart {disfmarker} this table that we 're looking at {pause} is um , show is all testing for TI - digits , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Bigger is worse .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you have uh basically two {pause} uh parts .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This is error rate , I think .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Ratio .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No . {pause} No .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "The upper part is for TI - digits", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "and it 's divided in three {pause} rows {pause} of four {disfmarker} four rows each .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And the first four rows is well - matched , then the s the second group of four rows is mismatched , and {pause} finally highly mismatched . And then the lower part is for Italian and it 's the same {disfmarker} {pause} the same thing .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , so the upper part is training {pause} TI - digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the HTK results , I mean . So it 's {pause} HTK training testings {pause} with different kind of features", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and what appears in the {pause} uh left column is {pause} the networks that are used for doing this .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Uh Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , What was is that i What was it that you had {pause} done {pause} last week when you showed {disfmarker} Do you remember ? Wh - when you showed me {pause} the {disfmarker} your table last week ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It - It was part of these results . Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So where is the baseline {pause} for the TI - digits {pause} located in here ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You mean the HTK Aurora baseline ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's uh the one hundred number . It 's , well , all these numbers are the ratio {pause} with respect to the baseline .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah ! Ah , OK , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So this is word {disfmarker} word error rate , so a high number is bad .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is {pause} a word error rate ratio .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "OK , I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So , seventy point two means that {pause} we reduced the error rate uh by thirty {disfmarker} thirty percent .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , OK , gotcha .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , {vocalsound} so if we take", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh um let 's see PLP {pause} uh with on - line {pause} normalization and {pause} delta - del so that 's this thing you have circled here {pause} in the second column ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "um {pause} and \" multi - English \" refers to what ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "To TIMIT . Mmm . Then you have {pause} uh MF , {pause} MS and ME which are for French , Spanish and English . And , yeah . Actually I {disfmarker} {pause} I uh forgot to say that {pause} the multilingual net are trained {pause} on {pause} uh {pause} features without the s derivatives uh but with {pause} increased frame numbers . Mmm . And we can {disfmarker} we can see on the first line of the table that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it 's slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse when we don't use delta but it 's not {disfmarker} {pause} not that much .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So w w So , I 'm sorry . I missed that . What 's MF , MS and ME ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Multi - French , Multi - Spanish", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Multi - French , Multi - Spanish , and Multi - English .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh OK . So , it 's {pause} uh {pause} broader vocabulary . Then {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK so I think what I 'm {disfmarker} what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was {disfmarker} was {pause} there were some numbers I saw , I think , that included these multiple languages and it {disfmarker} and I was seeing {pause} that it got worse . I {disfmarker} I think that was all it was . You had some very limited results that {disfmarker} at that point", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "which showed {pause} having in these {disfmarker} these other languages . In fact it might have been just this last category , {pause} having two languages broad that were {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where English was removed . So that was cross language and the {disfmarker} and the result was quite poor . What I {disfmarker} {pause} we hadn't seen yet was that if you added in the English , it 's still poor .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um now , what 's the noise condition {pause} um {pause} of the training data {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Still poor .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , I think this is what you were explaining . The noise condition is the same {disfmarker} It 's the same uh Aurora noises uh , in all these cases {pause} for the training .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's not a {pause} statistical {disfmarker} sta a strong st {pause} statistically different {pause} noise characteristic between {pause} uh the training and test", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No these are the s s s same noises ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and yet we 're seeing some kind of effect {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah . At least {disfmarker} at least for the first {disfmarker} {pause} for the well - matched ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well matched condition .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's some kind of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an effect from having these {disfmarker} uh this broader coverage um Now I guess what we should try doing with this is try {pause} testing these on u this same sort of thing on {disfmarker} you probably must have this {pause} lined up to do . To try the same t {pause} with the exact same training , do testing on {pause} the other languages .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "On {disfmarker} on um {disfmarker} So . Um , oh I well , wait a minute . You have this here , for the Italian . That 's right . OK , so , {pause} So .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so for the Italian the results are {vocalsound} uh {pause} stranger um {pause} Mmm . So what appears is that perhaps Spanish is {pause} not very close to Italian because uh , well , {pause} when using the {disfmarker} the network trained only on Spanish it 's {disfmarker} {pause} the error rate is {pause} almost uh twice {pause} the baseline error rate .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , let 's see . Is there any difference in {disfmarker} So it 's in {pause} the uh {disfmarker} So you 're saying that {pause} when you train on English {pause} and {pause} uh {pause} and {disfmarker} and test on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , you don't have training on English testing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} another difference , is that the noise {disfmarker} the noises are different .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "In {disfmarker} in what ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , For {disfmarker} for the Italian part I mean the {pause} uh {pause} the um {pause} networks are trained with noise from {pause} Aurora {disfmarker} TI - digits ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Aurora - two .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the noise is different in th", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And perhaps the noise are {pause} quite different from the noises {pause} in the speech that Italian .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Do we have any um {pause} test sets {pause} uh in {pause} any other language that um have the same noise as in {pause} the Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm , no .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Can I ask something real quick ? In {disfmarker} in the upper part {disfmarker} {pause} in the English {pause} stuff , {pause} it looks like the very best number is sixty point nine ? and that 's in the uh {disfmarker} {pause} the third {pause} section in the upper part under PLP JRASTA , sort of the middle column ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I is that {pause} a noisy condition ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So that 's matched training ? Is that what that is ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} no , the third part , so it 's uh {pause} highly mismatched . So . Training and {pause} test noise are different .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} why do you get your best number in {disfmarker} Wouldn't you get your best number in the clean case ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's relative to the um {pause} baseline mismatching", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK so these are not {disfmarker} OK , alright , I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . And then {disfmarker} so , in the {disfmarker} in the um {disfmarker} {pause} in the {pause} non - mismatched clean case , {pause} your best one was under MFCC ? That sixty - one point four ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . {pause} But it 's not a clean case . It 's {pause} a noisy case but {pause} uh training and test noises are the same .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh ! So this upper third ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh that 's still noisy ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's always noisy basically ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and , {pause} well , the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ? Um {pause} So uh , I think this will take some {pause} looking at , thinking about . But , {pause} what is uh {disfmarker} what is currently running , that 's {disfmarker} uh , i that {disfmarker} just filling in the holes here or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} ? {comment} {pause} pretty much ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no we don't plan to fill the holes", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but {pause} actually there is something important , is that {pause} um we made a lot of assumption concerning the on - line normalization and we just noticed {pause} uh recently that {pause} uh the {pause} approach that we were using {pause} was not {pause} uh {pause} leading to very good results {pause} when we {pause} used the straight features to HTK . Um {pause} {pause} Mmm . So basically d {pause} if you look at the {disfmarker} at the left of the table , {pause} the first uh row , {pause} with eighty - six , one hundred , and forty - three and seventy - five , these are the results we obtained for Italian {pause} uh with {pause} straight {pause} mmm , PLP features {pause} using on - line normalization .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . And the , mmm {disfmarker} what 's {pause} in the table , just {pause} at the left of the PLP twelve {pause} on - line normalization column , so , the numbers seventy - nine , fifty - four and {pause} uh forty - two {pause} are the results obtained by uh Pratibha with {pause} uh his on - line normalization {disfmarker} uh her on - line normalization approach .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Where is that ? seventy - nine , fifty", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , it 's just sort of sitting right on the uh {disfmarker} the column line .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Fifty - one ? This {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Oh I see , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} uh Yeah . So these are the results of {pause} OGI with {pause} on - line normalization and straight features to HTK . And the previous result , eighty - six and so on , {pause} are with our {pause} features straight to HTK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So {pause} what we see that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} there is that um {pause} uh the way we were doing this was not correct , but {pause} still {pause} the networks {pause} are very good . When we use the networks {pause} our number are better that {pause} uh Pratibha results .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We improve .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So , do you know what was wrong with the on - line normalization , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . There were diff there were different things and {pause} basically , {pause} the first thing is the mmm , {pause} alpha uh {pause} value . So , the recursion {pause} uh {pause} part . um , {pause} I used point five percent , {pause} which was the default value in the {disfmarker} {pause} in the programs here . And Pratibha used five percent .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So it adapts more {pause} quickly", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um , but , yeah . I assume that this was not important because {pause} uh previous results from {disfmarker} from Dan and {disfmarker} show that basically {pause} the {pause} both {disfmarker} both values g give the same {disfmarker} same {pause} uh results . It was true on uh {pause} TI - digits but it 's not true on Italian .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , second thing is the initialization of the {pause} stuff . Actually , {pause} uh what we were doing is to start the recursion from the beginning of the {pause} utterance . And using initial values that are the global mean and variances {pause} measured across the whole database .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And Pratibha did something different is that he {disfmarker} uh she initialed the um values of the mean and variance {pause} by computing {pause} this on the {pause} twenty - five first frames of each utterance . Mmm . There were other minor differences , the fact that {pause} she used fifteen dissities instead s instead of thirteen , and that she used C - zero instead of log energy . Uh , but the main differences concerns the recursion . So . {pause} Uh , I changed the code uh and now we have a baseline that 's similar to the OGI baseline .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's slightly {pause} uh different because {pause} I don't exactly initialize the same way she does . Actually I start , {pause} mmm , I don't wait to a fifteen {disfmarker} twenty - five {disfmarker} twenty - five frames {pause} before computing a mean and the variance {pause} to e to {disfmarker} to start the recursion .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I use the on - line scheme and only start the re recursion after the twenty - five {disfmarker} {pause} twenty - fifth frame . But , well it 's similar . So {pause} uh I retrained {pause} the networks with {pause} these {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the networks are retaining with these new {pause} features .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So basically what I expect is that {pause} these numbers will a little bit go down but {pause} perhaps not {disfmarker} not so much", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because {pause} I think the neural networks learn perhaps {pause} to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "even if the features are not {pause} normalized . It {disfmarker} it will learn how to normalize and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , but I think that {pause} given the pressure of time we probably want to draw {disfmarker} because of that {pause} especially , we wanna draw some conclusions from this , do some reductions {pause} in what we 're looking at ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and make some strong decisions for what we 're gonna do testing on before next week . So do you {disfmarker} are you {disfmarker} w did you have something going on , on the side , with uh multi - band {pause} or {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on this ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} I", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No , I {disfmarker} we plan to start this uh so , act actually we have discussed uh {pause} @ @ um , these {disfmarker} what we could do {pause} more as a {disfmarker} as a research and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we were thinking perhaps that {pause} uh {pause} the way we use the tandem is not {disfmarker} Uh , well , there is basically perhaps a flaw in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the stuff because {pause} we {pause} trained the networks {disfmarker} If we trained the networks on the {disfmarker} on {pause} a language and a t or a specific {pause} task ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um , what we ask is {disfmarker} to the network {disfmarker} is to put the bound the decision boundaries somewhere in the space .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And uh {pause} mmm and ask the network to put one , {pause} at one side of the {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a particular phoneme at one side of the boundary {disfmarker} decision boundary and one for another phoneme at the other side . And {pause} so there is kind of reduction of the information there that 's not correct because if we change task {pause} and if the phonemes are not in the same context in the new task , {pause} obviously the {pause} decision boundaries are not {disfmarker} {pause} should not be at the same {pause} place .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I di", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But the way the feature gives {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the way the network gives the features is that it reduce completely the {disfmarker} {pause} it removes completely the information {disfmarker} {pause} a lot of information from the {disfmarker} the features {pause} by uh {pause} uh {pause} placing the decision boundaries at {pause} optimal places for {pause} one kind of {pause} data but {pause} this is not the case for another kind of data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's a trade - off ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ? Any - anyway go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . So uh what we were thinking about is perhaps {pause} um one way {pause} to solve this problem is increase the number of {pause} outputs of the neural networks . Doing something like , um {pause} um phonemes within context and , well , basically context dependent phonemes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Maybe . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think {pause} you could make {pause} the same argument , it 'd be just as legitimate , {pause} for hybrid systems {pause} as well . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah but , we know that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And in fact , {pause} th things get better with context dependent {pause} versions . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye - yeah but here it 's something different . We want to have features", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh well , {pause} um .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it 's still true {pause} that what you 're doing {pause} is you 're ignoring {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're coming up with something to represent , {pause} whether it 's a distribution , {pause} probability distribution or features , you 're coming up with a set of variables {pause} that are representing {pause} uh , {pause} things that vary w over context .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , and you 're {pause} putting it all together , ignoring the differences in context . That {disfmarker} that 's true {pause} for the hybrid system , it 's true for a tandem system . So , for that reason , when you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a hybrid system , {pause} when you incorporate context one way or another , {pause} you do get better scores .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ? But I {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a big deal {pause} to get that . I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of {disfmarker} And once you {disfmarker} the other thing is that once you represent {disfmarker} start representing more and more context {pause} it is {pause} uh {pause} much more {pause} um specific {pause} to a particular task in language . So um Uh , the {disfmarker} {pause} the acoustics associated with {pause} uh a particular context , for instance you may have some kinds of contexts that will never occur {pause} in one language and will occur frequently in the other , so the qu the issue of getting enough training {pause} for a particular kind of context becomes harder . We already actually don't have a huge amount of training data um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} mmm , I mean , {pause} the {disfmarker} the way we {disfmarker} we do it now is that we have a neural network and {pause} basically {pause} the net network is trained almost to give binary decisions .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And {pause} uh {disfmarker} binary decisions about phonemes . Nnn {disfmarker} Uh It 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Almost . But I mean it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does give a distribution .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {pause} it is true that if there 's two phones that are very similar , {pause} that {pause} uh {pause} the {disfmarker} {pause} i it may prefer one but it will {pause} give a reasonably high value to the other , too .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , sure but uh {pause} So basically it 's almost binary decisions and {pause} um the idea of using more {pause} classes is {pause} to {pause} get something that 's {pause} less binary decisions .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh no , but it would still be even more of a binary decision . It {disfmarker} it 'd be even more of one . Because then you would say {pause} that in {disfmarker} that this phone in this context is a one , {pause} but the same phone in a slightly different context is a zero .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "That would be even {disfmarker} even more distinct of a binary decision . I actually would have thought you 'd wanna go the other way and have fewer classes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , I mean for instance , the {disfmarker} the thing I was arguing for before , but again which I don't think we have time to try , {pause} is something in which you would modify the code so you could train to have several outputs on and use articulatory features", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "cuz then that would {disfmarker} that would go {disfmarker} {pause} that would be much broader and cover many different situations . But if you go to very very fine categories , it 's very {pause} binary .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah , perhaps you 're right , but you have more classes so {pause} you {disfmarker} you have more information in your features . So , {vocalsound} Um {pause} You have more information in the {pause} uh", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . True .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "posteriors vector um which means that {disfmarker} But still the information is relevant", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it 's information that helps to discriminate ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it 's possible to be able to discriminate {pause} among the phonemes in context .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's an interesting thought .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean we {disfmarker} we could disagree about it at length", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but the {disfmarker} the real thing is if you 're interested in it you 'll probably try it", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we 'll see . But {disfmarker} but what I 'm more concerned with now , as an operational level , is {pause} uh , you know ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "what do we do in four or five days ? Uh , and {disfmarker} {pause} so we have {pause} to be concerned {pause} with Are we gonna look at any combinations of things , you know once the nets get retrained so you have this problem out of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , are we going to look at {pause} multi - band ? Are we gonna look at combinations of things ? Uh , what questions are we gonna ask , uh now that , I mean , {pause} we should probably turn shortly to this O G I note . Um , how are we going to {pause} combine {pause} with what they 've been focusing on ? Uh , {pause} Uh we haven't been doing any of the L D A RASTA sort of thing .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And they , although they don't talk about it in this note , um , {pause} there 's um , {pause} the issue of the {pause} um Mu law {pause} business {pause} uh {pause} versus the logarithm , um , {pause} so .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So what i what is going on right now ? What 's right {disfmarker} you 've got {pause} nets retraining , Are there {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any H T K {pause} trainings {disfmarker} testings going on ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "N", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm trying the HTK with eh , {pause} PLP twelve on - line delta - delta and MSG filter {pause} together .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "The combination , I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The combination , yeah . But I haven't result {vocalsound} at this moment .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "MSG and {disfmarker} and PLP .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . ", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "And is this with the revised {pause} on - line normalization ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye - Uh , with the old {pause} older ,", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Old one . So it 's using all the nets for that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "but again we have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} We have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} maybe it 's not making too much difference ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {pause} We can know soon .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh so there is this combination , yeah . Working on combination obviously .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Um , I will start work on multi - band . And {pause} we {pause} plan to work also on the idea of using both {pause} features {pause} and net outputs .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Um . And {pause} we think that {pause} with this approach perhaps {pause} we could reduce the number of outputs of the neural network . Um , So , get simpler networks , because we still have the features . So we have um {pause} come up with um {pause} different kind of {pause} broad phonetic categories . And we have {disfmarker} Basically we have three {pause} types of broad phonetic classes . Well , something using place of articulation which {disfmarker} which leads to {pause} nine , I think , {pause} broad classes . Uh , another which is based on manner , which is {disfmarker} is also something like nine classes . And then , {pause} something that combine both , and we have {pause} twenty f {pause} twenty - five ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Twenty - seven .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Twenty - seven broad classes . So like , uh , oh , I don't know , like back vowels , front vowels .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So what you do {disfmarker} um I just wanna understand", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um For the moments we do not {disfmarker} don't have nets ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so {pause} You have two net or three nets ? Was this ? How many {disfmarker} how many nets do you have ? No nets .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean , {pause} It 's just {disfmarker} Were we just changing {pause} the labels to retrain nets {pause} with fewer out outputs .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Begin to work in this . We are @ @ .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Right . But {disfmarker} but I didn't understand {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} the software currently just has {disfmarker} uh a {disfmarker} allows for I think , the one {disfmarker} one hot output . So you 're having multiple nets and combining them , or {disfmarker} ? Uh , how are you {disfmarker} how are you coming up with {disfmarker} If you say {pause} uh {pause} If you have a place {pause} characteristic and a manner characteristic , how do you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It - It 's the single net ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I think they have one output .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's just one net .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's one net with {pause} um {pause} twenty - seven outputs", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "if we have twenty - seven classes ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I see . I see , OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's basically a standard net with fewer {pause} classes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So you 're sort of going the other way of what you were saying a bit ago instead of {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah . B b including the features , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But including the features .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I don't think this {pause} will work {pause} alone . I think it will get worse because Well , I believe the effect that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of too reducing too much the information is {pause} basically {disfmarker} basically what happens", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But you think if you include that {pause} plus the other features ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah , because {pause} there is perhaps one important thing that the net {pause} brings , and OGI show showed that , is {pause} the distinction between {pause} sp speech and silence Because these nets are trained on well - controlled condition . I mean the labels are obtained on clean speech , and we add noise after . So this is one thing And But perhaps , something intermediary using also {pause} some broad classes could {disfmarker} could bring so much more information . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so again then we have these broad classes and {disfmarker} well , somewhat broad . I mean , it 's twenty - seven instead of sixty - four , {pause} basically . And you have the original features .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Which are PLP , or something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And then uh , just to remind me , all of that goes {pause} into {disfmarker} uh , that all of that is transformed by uh , uh , K - KL or something , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . There will probably be ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mu .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "yeah , one single KL to transform everything", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or {vocalsound} {pause} uh ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No transform the PLP", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "per", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and only transform the other I 'm not sure .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Well no ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "This is {pause} still something {pause} that", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah , we {pause} don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's a question of whether you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two e @ @ it 's one .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . Whether you would transform together or just one . Yeah . Might wanna try it both ways . But that 's interesting . So that 's something that you 're {disfmarker} you haven't trained yet but are preparing to train , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um {pause} {pause} Yeah , so I think Hynek will be here Monday .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": " Monday or Tuesday . So", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I think , you know , we need to {pause} choose the {disfmarker} choose the experiments carefully , so we can get uh key {disfmarker} {pause} key questions answered {pause} uh before then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and {pause} leave other ones aside even if it {pause} leaves incomplete {pause} tables {vocalsound} {pause} someplace , uh {pause} uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really time to {disfmarker} {pause} time to choose .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , let me pass this out , {pause} by the way . Um These are {disfmarker} Did {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} {pause} did I interrupt you ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have one .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Were there other things that you wanted to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no . I don't think so .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , thanks .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Ah ! {pause} OK . {pause} OK , we have {pause} lots of them .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We have one . ", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "OK , so {vocalsound} um , Something I asked {disfmarker} So they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing {pause} the {disfmarker} the VAD I guess they mean voice activity detection So again , it 's the silence {disfmarker} So they 've just trained up a net {pause} which has two outputs , I believe . Um {vocalsound} I asked uh {pause} Hynek whether {disfmarker} I haven't talked to Sunil {disfmarker} I asked Hynek whether {pause} they compared that to {pause} just taking the nets we already had {pause} and summing up the probabilities .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} To get the speech {disfmarker} voice activity detection , or else just using the silence , {pause} if there 's only one {pause} silence output . Um {pause} And , he didn't think they had , um . But on the other hand , maybe they can get by with a smaller net and {pause} maybe {pause} sometimes you don't run the other , maybe there 's a computational advantage to having a separate net , anyway .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So um Their uh {disfmarker} {pause} the results look pretty good . Um , {pause} I mean , not uniformly .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , there 's a {disfmarker} an example or two {pause} that you can find , where it made it slightly worse , but {pause} uh in {disfmarker} in all but a couple {pause} examples .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But they have a question of the result . Um how are trained the {disfmarker} the LDA filter ? How obtained the LDA filter ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I I 'm sorry . I don't understand your question .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes , um the LDA filter {pause} needs some {pause} training set {pause} to obtain the filter . Maybe I don't know exactly how {pause} they are obtained .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It 's on {pause} training .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Training , with the training test of each {disfmarker} You understand me ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh for example , {pause} LDA filter {pause} need a set of {disfmarker} {pause} a set of training {pause} to obtain the filter .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And maybe {pause} for the Italian , for the TD {pause} TE on for Finnish , these filter are {disfmarker} are obtained with their own training set .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes , I don't know . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} so that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very good question , then {disfmarker} now that it {disfmarker} {pause} I understand it . It 's \" yeah , where does the LDA come from ? \" In the {disfmarker} In {pause} earlier experiments , they had taken LDA {pause} from a completely different database , right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , because maybe it the same situation that the neural network training with their own", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "set .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So that 's a good question . Where does it come from ? Yeah , I don't know . Um , {pause} but uh to tell you the {pause} truth , I wasn't actually looking at the LDA so much when I {disfmarker} I was looking at it I was {pause} mostly thinking about the {disfmarker} {pause} the VAD . And um , it ap {pause} it ap Oh what does {disfmarker} what does ASP ? Oh that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The features , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't understand also", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It says \" baseline ASP \" .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "what is {disfmarker} {pause} what is the difference between ASP and uh baseline over ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "ASP .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Anybody know {pause} any {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh . There it is .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um Cuz there 's \" baseline Aurora \" {pause} above it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And it 's {disfmarker} This is mostly better than baseline , although in some cases it 's a little worse , in a couple cases .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , it says baseline ASP is twenty - three mill {pause} minus thirteen .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , it says what it is . But I don't how that 's different {pause} from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "From the baseline . {comment} OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I think this was {disfmarker} {pause} I think this is the same point we were at when {disfmarker} when we were up in Oregon .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} {pause} I think it 's the C - zero {disfmarker} using C - zero instead of log energy .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah , OK , mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's this .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh . OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It should be that , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "They s they say in here that the VAD is not used as an additional feature .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Shouldn't it be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Does {disfmarker} does anybody know how they 're using it ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker} so what they 're doing here is , {pause} i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "if you look down at the block diagram , {pause} um , {pause} they estimate {disfmarker} they get a {disfmarker} {pause} they get an estimate {pause} of whether it 's speech or silence ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then they have a median filter of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And so um , {pause} basically they 're trying to find stretches . The median filter is enforcing a {disfmarker} i it having some continuity .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You find stretches where the {pause} combination of the {pause} frame wise VAD and the {disfmarker} {pause} the median filter say that there 's a stretch of silence . And then it 's going through and just throwing the data away .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't understand . You mean it 's throwing out frames ? Before {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's throwing out chunks of frames , yeah . There 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the median filter is enforcing that it 's not gonna be single cases of frames , or isolated frames .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's throwing out frames and the thing is {pause} um , {pause} what I don't understand is how they 're doing this with H T", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's what I was just gonna ask .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "How can you just throw out frames ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , you {disfmarker} you can ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "i", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ? I mean y you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "it stretches again . For single frames I think it would be pretty hard .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But if you say speech starts here , speech ends there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , you can basically remove the {disfmarker} the frames from the feature {disfmarker} feature files .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so I mean in the {disfmarker} i i in the {disfmarker} in the decoding , you 're saying that we 're gonna decode from here to here .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I t", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're treating it , {pause} you know , like uh {disfmarker} well , it 's not isolated word , but {disfmarker} but connected , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "In the text they say that this {disfmarker} this is a tentative block diagram of a possible configuration we could think of . So that sort of sounds like they 're not doing that yet .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well . {pause} No they {disfmarker} they have numbers though , right ? So I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing something like that . I think that they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} I think what I mean by tha that is they 're trying to come up with a block diagram that 's plausible for the standard . In other words , it 's {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean from the point of view of {disfmarker} of uh reducing the number of bits you have to transmit it 's not a bad idea to detect silence anyway .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I 'm just wondering what exactly did they do up in this table if it wasn't this .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . But it 's {disfmarker} the thing is it 's that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Certainly it would be tricky about it intrans in transmitting voice , {pause} uh uh for listening to , is that these kinds of things {pause} uh cut {pause} speech off a lot .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right ? And so {pause} um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Plus it 's gonna introduce delays .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It does introduce delays but they 're claiming that it 's {disfmarker} it 's within the {disfmarker} {pause} the boundaries of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And the LDA introduces delays , and b {pause} what he 's suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it doesn't introduce {pause} uh , any more delay . I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same {pause} time the LDA {pause} down here {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} Wh what 's the difference between TLDA and SLDA ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Temporal and spectral .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah , thank you .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Temporal LDA .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , you would know that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So um . The temporal LDA does in fact include the same {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} I think he {disfmarker} well , by {disfmarker} by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means {pause} if you construct it this way , this {disfmarker} this delay would work in that way", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then it 'd be OK . They {disfmarker} they clearly did actually remove {pause} silent sections in order {disfmarker} because they {pause} got these {pause} word error rate {pause} results . So um I think that it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to do that in this because in fact , it 's gonna give a better word error result and therefore will help within an evaluation . Whereas to whether this would actually be in a final standard , I don't know . Um . Uh , as you know , part of the problem with evaluation right now is that the {pause} word models are pretty bad and nobody wants {disfmarker} {pause} has {disfmarker} has approached improving them . So {pause} it 's possible that a lot of the problems {pause} with so many insertions and so forth would go away if they were better word models {pause} to begin with . So {pause} this might just be a temporary thing . But {disfmarker} But , on the other hand , and maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's a decent idea . So um The question we 're gonna wanna go {pause} through next week when Hynek shows up I guess is given that we 've been {disfmarker} if you look at what we 've been trying , we 're uh looking at {pause} uh , by then I guess , combinations of features and multi - band Uh , and we 've been looking at {pause} cross - language , cross {pause} task {pause} issues . And they 've been not so much looking at {pause} the cross task uh multiple language issues . But they 've been looking at uh {disfmarker} {pause} at these issues . At the on - line normalization and the uh {pause} voice activity detection . And I guess when he comes here we 're gonna have to start deciding about {pause} um what do we choose {pause} from what we 've looked at {pause} to um blend with {pause} some group of things in what they 've looked at And once we choose that , {pause} how do we split up the {pause} effort ? Uh , because we still have {disfmarker} even once we choose , {pause} we 've still got {pause} uh another {pause} month or so , I mean there 's holidays in the way , but {disfmarker} but uh {pause} I think the evaluation data comes January thirty - first so there 's still a fair amount of time {pause} to do things together it 's just that they probably should be somewhat more coherent between the two sites {pause} in that {disfmarker} that amount of time .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "When they removed the silence frames , did they insert some kind of a marker so that the recognizer knows it 's {disfmarker} {pause} knows when it 's time to back trace or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , see they , I {disfmarker} I think they 're Um . I don't know the {disfmarker} {pause} the specifics of how they 're doing it . They 're {disfmarker} {pause} they 're getting around the way the recognizer works because they 're not allowed to {pause} um , change the scripts {pause} for the recognizer , {pause} I believe .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , right . Maybe they 're just inserting some nummy frames or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Uh . Uh , you know that 's what I had thought . But I don't {disfmarker} I don't think they are .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean that 's {disfmarker} sort of what {disfmarker} the way I had imagined would happen is that on the other side , yeah you p put some low level noise or something . Probably don't want all zeros .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Most recognizers don't like zeros but {vocalsound} but {pause} you know , {pause} put some epsilon in or some rand", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "sorry epsilon random variable {pause} in or something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Some constant vector . I mean i w Or something {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Maybe not a constant but it doesn't , uh {disfmarker} don't like to divide by the variance of that , but I mean it 's", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's right . But something that {disfmarker} what I mean is something that is {pause} very distinguishable from {pause} speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So that the {disfmarker} the silence model in HTK will always pick it up .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} that 's what I thought they would do . or else , uh {pause} uh maybe there is some indicator to tell it to start and stop , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But whatever they did , I mean they have to play within the rules of this specific evaluation .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We c we can find out .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Cuz you gotta do something . Otherwise , if it 's just a bunch of speech , stuck together {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No they 're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It would do badly", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and it didn't so badly , right ? So they did something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh . So , OK , So I think {pause} this brings me up to date a bit . It hopefully brings other {pause} people up to date a bit . And um Um {pause} I think {disfmarker} Uh , I wanna look at these numbers off - line a little bit and think about it and {disfmarker} {pause} and talk with everybody uh , {pause} outside of this meeting . Um , but uh No I mean it sounds like {disfmarker} I mean {pause} there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there are the usual number of {disfmarker} of {pause} little {disfmarker} little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they 're getting ironed out . And now we 're {pause} seem to be kind of in a position to actually {pause} uh , {pause} look at stuff and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and compare things . So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty good . Um {pause} I don't know what the {disfmarker} One of the things I wonder about , {pause} coming back to the first results you talked about , is {disfmarker} is {pause} how much , {pause} uh {pause} things could be helped {pause} by more parameters . And uh {disfmarker} {pause} And uh how many more parameters we can afford to have , {vocalsound} {pause} in terms of the uh computational limits . Because anyway when we go to {pause} twice as much data {pause} and have the same number of parameters , particularly when it 's twice as much data and it 's quite diverse , um , I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , just have a bigger hidden layer . Uh But {disfmarker} I doubt it would {pause} help by forty per cent . But {vocalsound} {pause} but uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Just curious . How are we doing on the {pause} resources ? Disk , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think we 're alright ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um , {pause} not much problems with that .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Computation ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well this table took uh {pause} more than five days to get back .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , well .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Are {disfmarker} were you folks using Gin ? That 's a {disfmarker} that just died , you know ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm , no . You were using Gin {comment} perhaps , yeah ? No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No ? Oh , that 's good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It just died .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , {pause} we 're gonna get a replacement {pause} server that 'll be a faster server , {pause} actually .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} It 's a {pause} seven hundred fifty megahertz uh SUN", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm . {comment} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {pause} But it won't be installed for {pause} a little while .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Tonic .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "U Go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Do we {disfmarker} Do we have that big new IBM machine the , I think in th", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "We have the {pause} little tiny IBM machine {vocalsound} {pause} that might someday grow up to be a big {pause} IBM machine . It 's got s slots for eight , uh IBM was donating five , I think we only got two so far , processors . We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors . They ended up being five fifty . So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz , we ended up with two {pause} that are five hundred and fifty megahertz . And more are supposed to come soon and there 's only a moderate amount of dat of memory . So I don't think {pause} anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to {pause} spend much time {pause} uh {pause} with it , but uh {vocalsound} Hopefully , {pause} they 'll get us some more {pause} parts , soon and {disfmarker} Uh , yeah , I think that 'll be {disfmarker} once we get it populated , {pause} that 'll be a nice machine . I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there . And uh {disfmarker} and uh a nice amount of memory . Uh so it 'll be a pr pretty fast Linux machine .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And if we can do things on Linux , {pause} some of the machines we have going already , like Swede ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um It seems pretty fast .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I think Fudge is pretty fast too .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean you can check with uh {pause} Dave Johnson . I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} I think the machine is just sitting there . And it does have two processors , you know and {disfmarker} {pause} Somebody could do {disfmarker} {pause} you know , uh , check out {pause} uh the multi - threading {pause} libraries . And {pause} I mean i it 's possible that the {disfmarker} I mean , I guess the prudent thing to do would be for somebody to do the work on {disfmarker} {pause} on getting our code running {pause} on that machine with two processors {pause} even though there aren't five or eight . There 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's gonna be debugging hassles and then we 'd be set for when we did have five or eight , to have it really be useful . But . {pause} Notice how I said somebody and {vocalsound} turned my head your direction . That 's one thing you don't get in these recordings . You don't get the {disfmarker} {pause} don't get the visuals but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I is it um {pause} mostly um the neural network trainings that are {pause} um slowing us down or the HTK runs that are slowing us down ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Uh , I think yes . Uh , {vocalsound} Isn't that right ? I mean I think you 're {disfmarker} you 're sort of held up by both , right ? If the {disfmarker} if the neural net trainings were a hundred times faster {pause} you still wouldn't {pause} be anything {disfmarker} running through these a hundred times faster because you 'd {pause} be stuck by the HTK trainings ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But if the HTK {disfmarker} I mean I think they 're both {disfmarker} It sounded like they were roughly equal ? Is that about right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Because , um {pause} I think that 'll be running Linux , and Sw - Swede and Fudge are already running Linux so , {pause} um I could try to get {pause} um the train the neural network trainings or the HTK stuff running under Linux , and to start with I 'm {pause} wondering which one I should pick first .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Uh , probably the neural net cuz it 's probably {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's um {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . They both {disfmarker} HTK we use for {pause} um {pause} this Aurora stuff Um {pause} Um , I think {pause} It 's not clear yet what we 're gonna use {pause} for trainings uh {disfmarker} Well , {pause} there 's the trainings uh {disfmarker} is it the training that takes the time , or the decoding ? Uh , is it about equal {pause} between the two ? For {disfmarker} for Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "For HTK ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "For {disfmarker} Yeah . For the Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh Training is longer .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . Well , I don't know how we can {disfmarker} I don't know how to {disfmarker} Do we have HTK source ? Is that {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You would think that would fairly trivially {disfmarker} the training would , anyway , th the testing {pause} uh I don't {disfmarker} I don't {pause} think would {pause} parallelize all that well . But I think {pause} that {pause} you could {pause} certainly do d um , {pause} distributed , sort of {disfmarker} {pause} Ah , no , it 's the {disfmarker} {pause} each individual {pause} sentence is pretty tricky to parallelize . But you could split up the sentences in a test set .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "They have a {disfmarker} they have a thing for doing that and th they have for awhile , in H T And you can parallelize the training .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And run it on several machines", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Aha !", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and it just basically keeps counts . And there 's something {disfmarker} {pause} a final {pause} thing that you run and it accumulates all the counts together .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't what their scripts are {pause} set up to do for the Aurora stuff , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Something that we haven't really settled on yet is other than {pause} this Aurora stuff , {pause} uh what do we do , large vocabulary {pause} training slash testing {pause} for uh tandem systems . Cuz we hadn't really done much with tandem systems for larger stuff . Cuz we had this one collaboration with CMU and we used SPHINX . Uh , we 're also gonna be collaborating with SRI and we have their {disfmarker} have theirs . Um {pause} So {pause} I don't know Um . So I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} the advantage of going with the neural net thing is that we 're gonna use the neural net trainings , no matter what , for a lot of the things we 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "whereas , w exactly which HMM {disfmarker} Gaussian - mixture - based HMM thing we use is gonna depend uh So with that , maybe we should uh {vocalsound} go to our {nonvocalsound} digit recitation task . And , it 's about eleven fifty . Canned . Uh , I can {disfmarker} I can start over here . Great , uh , could you give Adam a call . Tell him to He 's at two nine seven seven .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . I think we can {vocalsound} @ @ You know Herve 's coming tomorrow , right ? Herve will be giving a talk , yeah , talk at eleven . Did uh , did everybody sign these consent Er everybody Has everyone signed a consent form before , on previous meetings ? You don't have to do it again each time Yes . microphones off", "speaker": "Professor B" } ]

[ { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , I don't {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I think I 'm zero .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wow ! Unprecedented .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hello , hello , hello , hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Wh - what causes the crash ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Did you fix something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Five , five .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Hello , hello .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , maybe it 's the turning {disfmarker} turning off and turning on of the mike , right ?", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh , you think that 's you ? Oh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Aaa - aaa - aaa .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , OK , mine 's working .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . That 's me .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . OK . So , um I guess we are {pause} um {pause} gonna do the digits at the end . Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Channel {disfmarker} channel three , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Channel two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm , channel five ? Doesn't work ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's the mike number there , uh {pause} Uh , mike number five , and {pause} channel {disfmarker} channel four .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Is it written on her sheet , I believe .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No ? Ah ,", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mike four .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Watch this .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "era el cuatro .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yep , that 's me .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "But , channel", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah yeah yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "This is you .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK . I saw that . Ah {disfmarker} yeah , it 's OK .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah . And I 'm channel uh two I think ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ooo .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "or channel {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think I 'm channel two .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Oh , I 'm channel {disfmarker} must be channel one . Channel one ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Channel {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I decided to talk about that .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes , OK . OK . So uh {pause} I also copied uh the results that we all got in the mail I think from uh {disfmarker} {pause} from OGI and we 'll go {disfmarker} go through them also . So where are we on {disfmarker} {pause} on uh {vocalsound} {pause} our runs ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh so . {pause} uh {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} So {pause} As I was already said , we {disfmarker} we mainly focused on uh four kind of features .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Excuse me .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The PLP , the PLP with JRASTA , the MSG , and the MFCC from the baseline Aurora .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , and we focused for the {disfmarker} the test part on the English and the Italian . Um . We 've trained uh several neural networks on {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} on the TI - digits English {pause} and on the Italian data and also on the broad uh {pause} English uh French and uh Spanish databases . Mmm , so there 's our result tables here , for the tandem approach , and um , actually what we {disfmarker} we @ @ observed is that if the network is trained on the task data it works pretty well .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . Our {disfmarker} our uh {disfmarker} {pause} There 's a {disfmarker} {pause} We 're pausing for a photo {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Chicken on the grill . Try that corner .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "How about over th from the front of the room ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's longer .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "We 're pausing for a photo opportunity here . Uh . {vocalsound} Uh . So .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh wait wait wait wait wait . Wait .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Get out of the {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Hold on . Hold on .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Let me give you a black screen .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "He 's facing this way . What ? OK , this {disfmarker} this would be a {pause} good section for our silence detection .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um Oh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Musical chairs everybody !", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . So um , {pause} you were saying {pause} about the training data {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , so if the network is trained on the task data um {pause} tandem works pretty well . And uh actually we have uh , results are similar Only on ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Do you mean if it 's trained only on {disfmarker} On data from just that task ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "that language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Just that task . But actually we didn't train network on {pause} uh both types of data I mean {pause} uh {pause} phonetically ba phonetically balanced uh data and task data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We only did either task {disfmarker} task data or {pause} uh broad {pause} data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um {pause} Yeah . So ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So how {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} clearly it 's gonna be good then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So what 's th", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but the question is how much {pause} worse is it {pause} if you have broad data ? I mean , {pause} my assump From what I saw from the earlier results , uh I guess last week , {pause} was that um , {pause} if you {pause} trained on one language and tested on another , say , that {pause} the results were {disfmarker} were relatively poor .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} but the question is if you train on one language {pause} but you have a broad coverage {pause} and then test in another , {pause} does that {disfmarker} {pause} is that improve things {pause} i c in comparison ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If we use the same language ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , no , no . Different lang So {pause} um {pause} If you train on TI - digits {pause} and test on Italian digits , {pause} you do poorly , {pause} let 's say .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't have the numbers in front of me ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah but I did not uh do that .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so I 'm just imagining . E So , you didn't train on {pause} TIMIT and test on {disfmarker} {pause} on Italian digits , say ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} No , we did four {disfmarker} four kind of {disfmarker} of testing , actually . The first testing is {pause} with task data {disfmarker} So , with nets trained on task data . So for Italian on the Italian speech @ @ . The second test is trained on a single language um with broad database , but the same language as the t task data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But for Italian we choose Spanish which {pause} we assume is close to Italian . The third test is by using , um the three language database", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "W which in {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and the fourth is", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It has three languages . That 's including the w the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "This includes {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "the one that it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "In", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But {pause} not digits . I mean it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "The three languages {pause} is not digits ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "it 's the broad {pause} data . OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah And the fourth test is uh {pause} excluding from these three languages the language {pause} that is {pause} the task language .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , OK , yeah , so , that is what I wanted to know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I just wasn't saying it very well , I guess .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah . So um {pause} for uh TI - digits for ins example {pause} uh when we go from TI - digits training to {pause} TIMIT training {pause} uh we lose {pause} uh around ten percent , uh . The error rate increase u of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of ten percent , relative .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Relative . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So this is not so bad . And then when we jump to the multilingual data it 's uh it become worse and , well Around uh , let 's say , {pause} twenty perc twenty percent further .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ab - about how much ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Twenty percent further ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Twenty to {disfmarker} to thirty percent further . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And so , remind me , the multilingual stuff is just the broad data . Right ? It 's not the digits .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So it 's the combination of {pause} two things there . It 's {pause} removing the {pause} task specific {pause} training and {pause} it 's adding other languages .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But the first step is al already removing the task s specific from {disfmarker} from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Already , right right right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So they were sort of building {pause} here ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And we lose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh {pause} So , basically when it 's trained on the {disfmarker} the multilingual broad data {pause} um or number {disfmarker} so , the {disfmarker} the {pause} ratio of our error rates uh with the {pause} baseline error rate is around {pause} uh one point one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound} And it 's something like one point three of {disfmarker} of the {pause} uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I i if you compare everything to the first case at the baseline , you get something like one point one for the {disfmarker} for the using the same language but a different task , and something like one point three {pause} for three {disfmarker} three languages {pause} broad stuff .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No no no . Uh same language we are at uh {disfmarker} for at English at O point eight . So it improves , {pause} compared to the baseline . But {disfmarker} So . Le - let me .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Tas - task data", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I meant something different by baseline", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "we are u Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So let me {disfmarker} let me {disfmarker} Um , {pause} so , {pause} um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , fine . Let 's {disfmarker} let 's use the conventional meaning of baseline .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} By baseline here I meant {pause} uh using the task specific data .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh yeah , the f Yeah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But uh {disfmarker} {pause} uh , because that 's what you were just doing with this ten percent .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I was just {disfmarker} I just trying to understand that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Sure .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So if we call {pause} a factor of w just one , just normalized to one , the word error rate {pause} that you have {pause} for using TI - digits as {disfmarker} as {pause} training and TI - digits as test ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh different words , I 'm sure ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {pause} but uh , uh the same {pause} task and so on .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "If we call that \" one \" , {pause} then what you 're saying is {pause} that the word error rate {pause} for the same language but using {pause} uh different training data than you 're testing on , say TIMIT and so forth , {pause} it 's one point one .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . Yeah , it 's around one point one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . And if it 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "you {pause} do {pause} go to {pause} three languages including the English , {pause} it 's something like one point three . That 's what you were just saying , I think .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye Uh , more actually .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "One point four ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "If I {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , it 's an additional thirty percent .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "What would you say ? Around one point four", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And if you exclude {pause} English , {pause} from this combination , what 's that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "If we exclude English , {pause} um {pause} there is {pause} not much difference with the {pause} data with English .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Aha !", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "That 's interesting . {pause} That 's interesting . Do you see ? Because {disfmarker} Uh ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so {disfmarker} No , that {disfmarker} that 's important . So what {disfmarker} what it 's saying here is just that \" yes , there is a reduction {pause} in performance , {pause} when you don't {pause} um {pause} have the s {pause} when you don't have {pause} um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Task data .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Wait a minute , th th the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , actually {pause} it 's interesting . So it 's {disfmarker} So when you go to a different task , there 's actually not so {pause} different . It 's when you went to these {disfmarker} So what 's the difference between two and three ? Between the one point one case and the one point four case ? I 'm confused .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's multilingual .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . The only difference it 's {disfmarker} is that it 's multilingual {disfmarker} Um", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Cuz in both {disfmarker} in both {disfmarker} both of those cases , you don't have the same task .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah sure .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So is {disfmarker} is the training data for the {disfmarker} for this one point four case {disfmarker} does it include the training data for the one point one case ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , a fraction of it .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "A part of it , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "How m how much bigger is it ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um {pause} It 's two times ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , um .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "actually ? Yeah . Um . The English data {disfmarker} {pause} No , the multilingual databases are two times the {pause} broad English {pause} data . We just wanted to keep this , w well , not too huge . So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So it 's two times , but it includes the {disfmarker} but it includes the broad English data .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think so . Do you {disfmarker} Uh , Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the broad English data is what you got this one point one {pause} with . So that 's TIMIT basically right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So it 's band - limited TIMIT . This is all eight kilohertz sampling .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Downs Right .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you have band - limited TIMIT , {pause} gave you uh almost as good as a result as using TI - digits {pause} on a TI - digits test . OK ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um {pause} and {pause} um But , {pause} when you add in more training data but keep the neural net the same size , {pause} it {pause} um performs worse on the TI - digits . OK , now all of this is {disfmarker} {pause} This is noisy {pause} TI - digits , I assume ? Both training and test ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . OK . Um OK . Well . {pause} We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we may just need to uh {disfmarker} So I mean it 's interesting that h going to a different {disfmarker} different task didn't seem to hurt us that much , and going to a different language um It doesn't seem to matter {disfmarker} The difference between three and four is not particularly great , so that means that {pause} whether you have the language in or not is not such a big deal .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It sounds like um {pause} uh {pause} we may need to have more {pause} of uh things that are similar to a target language or {disfmarker} I mean . {pause} You have the same number of parameters in the neural net , you haven't increased the size of the neural net , and maybe there 's just {disfmarker} {pause} just not enough {pause} complexity to it to represent {pause} the variab increased variability in the {disfmarker} in the training set . That {disfmarker} that could be . Um {pause} So , what about {disfmarker} So these are results with {pause} uh th {pause} that you 're describing now , that {pause} they are pretty similar for the different features or {disfmarker} {pause} or uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , let me check . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . This was for the PLP ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um . The {disfmarker} Yeah . For the PLP with JRASTA the {disfmarker} {pause} the {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} This is quite the same {pause} tendency , {pause} with a slight increase of the error rate , {pause} uh if we go to {disfmarker} to TIMIT . And then it 's {disfmarker} it gets worse with the multilingual . Um . Yeah . There {disfmarker} there is a difference actually with {disfmarker} b between PLP and JRASTA is that {pause} JRASTA {pause} seems to {pause} perform better with the highly mismatched {pause} condition {pause} but slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse {pause} for the well matched condition . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I have a suggestion , actually , even though it 'll delay us slightly , would {disfmarker} would you mind {pause} running into the other room and making {pause} copies of this ? Cuz we 're all sort of {disfmarker} If we c if we could look at it , while we 're talking , I think it 'd be", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah . OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {disfmarker} {pause} Uh , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll sing a song or dance or something while you {vocalsound} do it , too .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Go ahead . Ah , while you 're gone I 'll ask s some of my questions .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh , this way and just slightly to the left , yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The um {disfmarker} What was {disfmarker} Was this number {pause} forty or {disfmarker} It was roughly the same as this one , {pause} he said ? When you had the two language versus the three language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . That 's what he was saying .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's where he removed English ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It sometimes , actually , depends on what features you 're using .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {disfmarker} but i it sounds like {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} He {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "I mean . That 's interesting because {pause} it {disfmarker} it seems like what it 's saying is not so much that you got hurt {pause} uh because {pause} you {pause} uh didn't have so much representation of English , because in the other case you don't get hurt any more , at least when {pause} it seemed like uh it {disfmarker} it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "but you have the same number of parameters representing it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . I wonder {disfmarker} were um all three of these nets {pause} using the same output ? This multi - language {pause} uh labelling ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "He was using uh sixty - four phonemes from {pause} SAMPA .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So this would {disfmarker} {pause} From this you would say , \" well , it doesn't really matter if we put Finnish {pause} into {pause} the training of the neural net , {pause} if there 's {pause} gonna be , {pause} you know , Finnish in the test data . \" Right ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's {disfmarker} it sounds {disfmarker} {pause} I mean , we have to be careful , cuz we haven't gotten a good result yet .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And comparing different bad results can be {pause} tricky .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {pause} I think it does suggest that it 's not so much uh {pause} uh cross {pause} language as cross type of speech .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} it 's um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But we did {disfmarker} Oh yeah , the other thing I was asking him , though , is that I think that in the case {disfmarker} Yeah , you {disfmarker} you do have to be careful because of com compounded results . I think we got some earlier results {pause} in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you didn't have {pause} three , but you just had one {pause} language . So you trained on {pause} one type of digits and tested on another . Didn - Wasn't there something of that ? Where you , {pause} say , trained on Spanish and tested on {disfmarker} on TI - digits , or the other way around ? Something like that ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I thought there was something like that , {pause} that he showed me {pause} last week . We 'll have to wait till we get {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that would be interesting .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um , This may have been what I was asking before , Stephane , but {disfmarker} {pause} but , um , wasn't there something that you did , {pause} where you trained {pause} on one language and tested on another ? I mean no {disfmarker} no mixture but just {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I 'll get it for you .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Uh , no , no .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We 've never just trained on one lang", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Training on a single language , you mean , and testing on the other one ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Not yet .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So the only {pause} task that 's similar to this is the training on two languages , and {comment} that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But we 've done a bunch of things where we just trained on one language . Right ? I mean , you haven't {disfmarker} you haven't done all your tests on multiple languages .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , No . Either thi this is test with {pause} uh the same language {pause} but from the broad data , or it 's test with {pause} uh different languages also from the broad data , excluding the {disfmarker} So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's three or {disfmarker} three and four .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "The early experiment that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Did you do different languages from digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . No . You mean {pause} training digits {pause} on one language and using the net {pause} to recognize on the other ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Digits on another language ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "See , I thought you showed me something like that last week . You had a {disfmarker} you had a little {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , {pause} No , I don't think so .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um What {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "These numbers are uh {pause} ratio to baseline ?", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So , I mean wha what 's the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This {disfmarker} this chart {disfmarker} this table that we 're looking at {pause} is um , show is all testing for TI - digits , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Bigger is worse .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "So you have uh basically two {pause} uh parts .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This is error rate , I think .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Ratio .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "No . {pause} No .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "The upper part is for TI - digits", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "and it 's divided in three {pause} rows {pause} of four {disfmarker} four rows each .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And the first four rows is well - matched , then the s the second group of four rows is mismatched , and {pause} finally highly mismatched . And then the lower part is for Italian and it 's the same {disfmarker} {pause} the same thing .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So , so the upper part is training {pause} TI - digits ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the HTK results , I mean . So it 's {pause} HTK training testings {pause} with different kind of features", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and what appears in the {pause} uh left column is {pause} the networks that are used for doing this .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So . Uh Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , What was is that i What was it that you had {pause} done {pause} last week when you showed {disfmarker} Do you remember ? Wh - when you showed me {pause} the {disfmarker} your table last week ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It - It was part of these results . Mmm . Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So where is the baseline {pause} for the TI - digits {pause} located in here ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You mean the HTK Aurora baseline ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's uh the one hundred number . It 's , well , all these numbers are the ratio {pause} with respect to the baseline .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah ! Ah , OK , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So this is word {disfmarker} word error rate , so a high number is bad .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , this is {pause} a word error rate ratio .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "OK , I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So , seventy point two means that {pause} we reduced the error rate uh by thirty {disfmarker} thirty percent .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , OK , gotcha .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , {vocalsound} so if we take", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh um let 's see PLP {pause} uh with on - line {pause} normalization and {pause} delta - del so that 's this thing you have circled here {pause} in the second column ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "um {pause} and \" multi - English \" refers to what ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "To TIMIT . Mmm . Then you have {pause} uh MF , {pause} MS and ME which are for French , Spanish and English . And , yeah . Actually I {disfmarker} {pause} I uh forgot to say that {pause} the multilingual net are trained {pause} on {pause} uh {pause} features without the s derivatives uh but with {pause} increased frame numbers . Mmm . And we can {disfmarker} we can see on the first line of the table that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {pause} it 's slightly {disfmarker} slightly worse when we don't use delta but it 's not {disfmarker} {pause} not that much .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . So w w So , I 'm sorry . I missed that . What 's MF , MS and ME ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Multi - French , Multi - Spanish", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Multi - French , Multi - Spanish , and Multi - English .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh OK . So , it 's {pause} uh {pause} broader vocabulary . Then {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK so I think what I 'm {disfmarker} what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was {disfmarker} was {pause} there were some numbers I saw , I think , that included these multiple languages and it {disfmarker} and I was seeing {pause} that it got worse . I {disfmarker} I think that was all it was . You had some very limited results that {disfmarker} at that point", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "which showed {pause} having in these {disfmarker} these other languages . In fact it might have been just this last category , {pause} having two languages broad that were {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where English was removed . So that was cross language and the {disfmarker} and the result was quite poor . What I {disfmarker} {pause} we hadn't seen yet was that if you added in the English , it 's still poor .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um now , what 's the noise condition {pause} um {pause} of the training data {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Still poor .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , I think this is what you were explaining . The noise condition is the same {disfmarker} It 's the same uh Aurora noises uh , in all these cases {pause} for the training .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's not a {pause} statistical {disfmarker} sta a strong st {pause} statistically different {pause} noise characteristic between {pause} uh the training and test", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No these are the s s s same noises ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and yet we 're seeing some kind of effect {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah . At least {disfmarker} at least for the first {disfmarker} {pause} for the well - matched ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well matched condition .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's some kind of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} an effect from having these {disfmarker} uh this broader coverage um Now I guess what we should try doing with this is try {pause} testing these on u this same sort of thing on {disfmarker} you probably must have this {pause} lined up to do . To try the same t {pause} with the exact same training , do testing on {pause} the other languages .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "On {disfmarker} on um {disfmarker} So . Um , oh I well , wait a minute . You have this here , for the Italian . That 's right . OK , so , {pause} So .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so for the Italian the results are {vocalsound} uh {pause} stranger um {pause} Mmm . So what appears is that perhaps Spanish is {pause} not very close to Italian because uh , well , {pause} when using the {disfmarker} the network trained only on Spanish it 's {disfmarker} {pause} the error rate is {pause} almost uh twice {pause} the baseline error rate .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . {vocalsound} Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well , I mean , let 's see . Is there any difference in {disfmarker} So it 's in {pause} the uh {disfmarker} So you 're saying that {pause} when you train on English {pause} and {pause} uh {pause} and {disfmarker} and test on {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No , you don't have training on English testing {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker} another difference , is that the noise {disfmarker} the noises are different .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "In {disfmarker} in what ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , For {disfmarker} for the Italian part I mean the {pause} uh {pause} the um {pause} networks are trained with noise from {pause} Aurora {disfmarker} TI - digits ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Aurora - two .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And the noise is different in th", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . And perhaps the noise are {pause} quite different from the noises {pause} in the speech that Italian .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Do we have any um {pause} test sets {pause} uh in {pause} any other language that um have the same noise as in {pause} the Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm , no .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Can I ask something real quick ? In {disfmarker} in the upper part {disfmarker} {pause} in the English {pause} stuff , {pause} it looks like the very best number is sixty point nine ? and that 's in the uh {disfmarker} {pause} the third {pause} section in the upper part under PLP JRASTA , sort of the middle column ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I is that {pause} a noisy condition ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So that 's matched training ? Is that what that is ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} no , the third part , so it 's uh {pause} highly mismatched . So . Training and {pause} test noise are different .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} why do you get your best number in {disfmarker} Wouldn't you get your best number in the clean case ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , it 's relative to the um {pause} baseline mismatching", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah ,", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK so these are not {disfmarker} OK , alright , I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "OK . And then {disfmarker} so , in the {disfmarker} in the um {disfmarker} {pause} in the {pause} non - mismatched clean case , {pause} your best one was under MFCC ? That sixty - one point four ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . {pause} But it 's not a clean case . It 's {pause} a noisy case but {pause} uh training and test noises are the same .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh ! So this upper third ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh that 's still noisy ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's always noisy basically ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and , {pause} well , the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ? Um {pause} So uh , I think this will take some {pause} looking at , thinking about . But , {pause} what is uh {disfmarker} what is currently running , that 's {disfmarker} uh , i that {disfmarker} just filling in the holes here or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker} ? {comment} {pause} pretty much ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no we don't plan to fill the holes", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but {pause} actually there is something important , is that {pause} um we made a lot of assumption concerning the on - line normalization and we just noticed {pause} uh recently that {pause} uh the {pause} approach that we were using {pause} was not {pause} uh {pause} leading to very good results {pause} when we {pause} used the straight features to HTK . Um {pause} {pause} Mmm . So basically d {pause} if you look at the {disfmarker} at the left of the table , {pause} the first uh row , {pause} with eighty - six , one hundred , and forty - three and seventy - five , these are the results we obtained for Italian {pause} uh with {pause} straight {pause} mmm , PLP features {pause} using on - line normalization .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . And the , mmm {disfmarker} what 's {pause} in the table , just {pause} at the left of the PLP twelve {pause} on - line normalization column , so , the numbers seventy - nine , fifty - four and {pause} uh forty - two {pause} are the results obtained by uh Pratibha with {pause} uh his on - line normalization {disfmarker} uh her on - line normalization approach .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Where is that ? seventy - nine , fifty", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh , it 's just sort of sitting right on the uh {disfmarker} the column line .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Fifty - one ? This {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Oh I see , OK .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Just {disfmarker} uh Yeah . So these are the results of {pause} OGI with {pause} on - line normalization and straight features to HTK . And the previous result , eighty - six and so on , {pause} are with our {pause} features straight to HTK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So {pause} what we see that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} there is that um {pause} uh the way we were doing this was not correct , but {pause} still {pause} the networks {pause} are very good . When we use the networks {pause} our number are better that {pause} uh Pratibha results .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We improve .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So , do you know what was wrong with the on - line normalization , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . There were diff there were different things and {pause} basically , {pause} the first thing is the mmm , {pause} alpha uh {pause} value . So , the recursion {pause} uh {pause} part . um , {pause} I used point five percent , {pause} which was the default value in the {disfmarker} {pause} in the programs here . And Pratibha used five percent .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So it adapts more {pause} quickly", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yes . Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um , but , yeah . I assume that this was not important because {pause} uh previous results from {disfmarker} from Dan and {disfmarker} show that basically {pause} the {pause} both {disfmarker} both values g give the same {disfmarker} same {pause} uh results . It was true on uh {pause} TI - digits but it 's not true on Italian .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , second thing is the initialization of the {pause} stuff . Actually , {pause} uh what we were doing is to start the recursion from the beginning of the {pause} utterance . And using initial values that are the global mean and variances {pause} measured across the whole database .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And Pratibha did something different is that he {disfmarker} uh she initialed the um values of the mean and variance {pause} by computing {pause} this on the {pause} twenty - five first frames of each utterance . Mmm . There were other minor differences , the fact that {pause} she used fifteen dissities instead s instead of thirteen , and that she used C - zero instead of log energy . Uh , but the main differences concerns the recursion . So . {pause} Uh , I changed the code uh and now we have a baseline that 's similar to the OGI baseline .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it 's slightly {pause} uh different because {pause} I don't exactly initialize the same way she does . Actually I start , {pause} mmm , I don't wait to a fifteen {disfmarker} twenty - five {disfmarker} twenty - five frames {pause} before computing a mean and the variance {pause} to e to {disfmarker} to start the recursion .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I use the on - line scheme and only start the re recursion after the twenty - five {disfmarker} {pause} twenty - fifth frame . But , well it 's similar . So {pause} uh I retrained {pause} the networks with {pause} these {disfmarker} well , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the networks are retaining with these new {pause} features .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So basically what I expect is that {pause} these numbers will a little bit go down but {pause} perhaps not {disfmarker} not so much", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because {pause} I think the neural networks learn perhaps {pause} to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "even if the features are not {pause} normalized . It {disfmarker} it will learn how to normalize and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK , but I think that {pause} given the pressure of time we probably want to draw {disfmarker} because of that {pause} especially , we wanna draw some conclusions from this , do some reductions {pause} in what we 're looking at ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and make some strong decisions for what we 're gonna do testing on before next week . So do you {disfmarker} are you {disfmarker} w did you have something going on , on the side , with uh multi - band {pause} or {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on this ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah {vocalsound} I", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "No , I {disfmarker} we plan to start this uh so , act actually we have discussed uh {pause} @ @ um , these {disfmarker} what we could do {pause} more as a {disfmarker} as a research and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we were thinking perhaps that {pause} uh {pause} the way we use the tandem is not {disfmarker} Uh , well , there is basically perhaps a flaw in the {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} the stuff because {pause} we {pause} trained the networks {disfmarker} If we trained the networks on the {disfmarker} on {pause} a language and a t or a specific {pause} task ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um , what we ask is {disfmarker} to the network {disfmarker} is to put the bound the decision boundaries somewhere in the space .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And uh {pause} mmm and ask the network to put one , {pause} at one side of the {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for a particular phoneme at one side of the boundary {disfmarker} decision boundary and one for another phoneme at the other side . And {pause} so there is kind of reduction of the information there that 's not correct because if we change task {pause} and if the phonemes are not in the same context in the new task , {pause} obviously the {pause} decision boundaries are not {disfmarker} {pause} should not be at the same {pause} place .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I di", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But the way the feature gives {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the way the network gives the features is that it reduce completely the {disfmarker} {pause} it removes completely the information {disfmarker} {pause} a lot of information from the {disfmarker} the features {pause} by uh {pause} uh {pause} placing the decision boundaries at {pause} optimal places for {pause} one kind of {pause} data but {pause} this is not the case for another kind of data .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's a trade - off ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ? Any - anyway go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . So uh what we were thinking about is perhaps {pause} um one way {pause} to solve this problem is increase the number of {pause} outputs of the neural networks . Doing something like , um {pause} um phonemes within context and , well , basically context dependent phonemes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Maybe . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think {pause} you could make {pause} the same argument , it 'd be just as legitimate , {pause} for hybrid systems {pause} as well . Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah but , we know that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And in fact , {pause} th things get better with context dependent {pause} versions . Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye - yeah but here it 's something different . We want to have features", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "uh well , {pause} um .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah , but it 's still true {pause} that what you 're doing {pause} is you 're ignoring {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're coming up with something to represent , {pause} whether it 's a distribution , {pause} probability distribution or features , you 're coming up with a set of variables {pause} that are representing {pause} uh , {pause} things that vary w over context .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , and you 're {pause} putting it all together , ignoring the differences in context . That {disfmarker} that 's true {pause} for the hybrid system , it 's true for a tandem system . So , for that reason , when you {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} in a hybrid system , {pause} when you incorporate context one way or another , {pause} you do get better scores .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK ? But I {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a big deal {pause} to get that . I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of {disfmarker} And once you {disfmarker} the other thing is that once you represent {disfmarker} start representing more and more context {pause} it is {pause} uh {pause} much more {pause} um specific {pause} to a particular task in language . So um Uh , the {disfmarker} {pause} the acoustics associated with {pause} uh a particular context , for instance you may have some kinds of contexts that will never occur {pause} in one language and will occur frequently in the other , so the qu the issue of getting enough training {pause} for a particular kind of context becomes harder . We already actually don't have a huge amount of training data um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but {disfmarker} mmm , I mean , {pause} the {disfmarker} the way we {disfmarker} we do it now is that we have a neural network and {pause} basically {pause} the net network is trained almost to give binary decisions .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And {pause} uh {disfmarker} binary decisions about phonemes . Nnn {disfmarker} Uh It 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Almost . But I mean it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it does give a distribution .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "It 's {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and {pause} it is true that if there 's two phones that are very similar , {pause} that {pause} uh {pause} the {disfmarker} {pause} i it may prefer one but it will {pause} give a reasonably high value to the other , too .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , sure but uh {pause} So basically it 's almost binary decisions and {pause} um the idea of using more {pause} classes is {pause} to {pause} get something that 's {pause} less binary decisions .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh no , but it would still be even more of a binary decision . It {disfmarker} it 'd be even more of one . Because then you would say {pause} that in {disfmarker} that this phone in this context is a one , {pause} but the same phone in a slightly different context is a zero .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} yeah , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "That would be even {disfmarker} even more distinct of a binary decision . I actually would have thought you 'd wanna go the other way and have fewer classes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but if {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , I mean for instance , the {disfmarker} the thing I was arguing for before , but again which I don't think we have time to try , {pause} is something in which you would modify the code so you could train to have several outputs on and use articulatory features", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "cuz then that would {disfmarker} that would go {disfmarker} {pause} that would be much broader and cover many different situations . But if you go to very very fine categories , it 's very {pause} binary .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm . Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah , perhaps you 're right , but you have more classes so {pause} you {disfmarker} you have more information in your features . So , {vocalsound} Um {pause} You have more information in the {pause} uh", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . True .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "posteriors vector um which means that {disfmarker} But still the information is relevant", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "because it 's {disfmarker} it 's information that helps to discriminate ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "if it 's possible to be able to discriminate {pause} among the phonemes in context .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Well it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's an interesting thought .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean we {disfmarker} we could disagree about it at length", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "but the {disfmarker} the real thing is if you 're interested in it you 'll probably try it", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker} {pause} and {pause} we 'll see . But {disfmarker} but what I 'm more concerned with now , as an operational level , is {pause} uh , you know ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "what do we do in four or five days ? Uh , and {disfmarker} {pause} so we have {pause} to be concerned {pause} with Are we gonna look at any combinations of things , you know once the nets get retrained so you have this problem out of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , are we going to look at {pause} multi - band ? Are we gonna look at combinations of things ? Uh , what questions are we gonna ask , uh now that , I mean , {pause} we should probably turn shortly to this O G I note . Um , how are we going to {pause} combine {pause} with what they 've been focusing on ? Uh , {pause} Uh we haven't been doing any of the L D A RASTA sort of thing .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And they , although they don't talk about it in this note , um , {pause} there 's um , {pause} the issue of the {pause} um Mu law {pause} business {pause} uh {pause} versus the logarithm , um , {pause} so .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So what i what is going on right now ? What 's right {disfmarker} you 've got {pause} nets retraining , Are there {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any H T K {pause} trainings {disfmarker} testings going on ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "N", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm trying the HTK with eh , {pause} PLP twelve on - line delta - delta and MSG filter {pause} together .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "The combination , I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The combination , yeah . But I haven't result {vocalsound} at this moment .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "MSG and {disfmarker} and PLP .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . ", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "And is this with the revised {pause} on - line normalization ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ye - Uh , with the old {pause} older ,", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Old one . So it 's using all the nets for that", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "but again we have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} We have the hope that it {disfmarker} {pause} maybe it 's not making too much difference ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . But {pause} We can know soon .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} but", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Maybe .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh so there is this combination , yeah . Working on combination obviously .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Um , I will start work on multi - band . And {pause} we {pause} plan to work also on the idea of using both {pause} features {pause} and net outputs .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Um . And {pause} we think that {pause} with this approach perhaps {pause} we could reduce the number of outputs of the neural network . Um , So , get simpler networks , because we still have the features . So we have um {pause} come up with um {pause} different kind of {pause} broad phonetic categories . And we have {disfmarker} Basically we have three {pause} types of broad phonetic classes . Well , something using place of articulation which {disfmarker} which leads to {pause} nine , I think , {pause} broad classes . Uh , another which is based on manner , which is {disfmarker} is also something like nine classes . And then , {pause} something that combine both , and we have {pause} twenty f {pause} twenty - five ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Twenty - seven .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Twenty - seven broad classes . So like , uh , oh , I don't know , like back vowels , front vowels .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So what you do {disfmarker} um I just wanna understand", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um For the moments we do not {disfmarker} don't have nets ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "so {pause} You have two net or three nets ? Was this ? How many {disfmarker} how many nets do you have ? No nets .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I mean , {pause} It 's just {disfmarker} Were we just changing {pause} the labels to retrain nets {pause} with fewer out outputs .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Begin to work in this . We are @ @ .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Right . But {disfmarker} but I didn't understand {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And then {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} the software currently just has {disfmarker} uh a {disfmarker} allows for I think , the one {disfmarker} one hot output . So you 're having multiple nets and combining them , or {disfmarker} ? Uh , how are you {disfmarker} how are you coming up with {disfmarker} If you say {pause} uh {pause} If you have a place {pause} characteristic and a manner characteristic , how do you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It - It 's the single net ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I think they have one output .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , it 's just one net .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's one net with {pause} um {pause} twenty - seven outputs", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "mm - hmm", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "if we have twenty - seven classes ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I see . I see , OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Well , it 's basically a standard net with fewer {pause} classes .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So you 're sort of going the other way of what you were saying a bit ago instead of {disfmarker} yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , but I think {disfmarker} Yeah . B b including the features , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But including the features .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I don't think this {pause} will work {pause} alone . I think it will get worse because Well , I believe the effect that {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of too reducing too much the information is {pause} basically {disfmarker} basically what happens", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh - huh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But you think if you include that {pause} plus the other features ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} Yeah , because {pause} there is perhaps one important thing that the net {pause} brings , and OGI show showed that , is {pause} the distinction between {pause} sp speech and silence Because these nets are trained on well - controlled condition . I mean the labels are obtained on clean speech , and we add noise after . So this is one thing And But perhaps , something intermediary using also {pause} some broad classes could {disfmarker} could bring so much more information . Uh .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} so again then we have these broad classes and {disfmarker} well , somewhat broad . I mean , it 's twenty - seven instead of sixty - four , {pause} basically . And you have the original features .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Which are PLP , or something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "And then uh , just to remind me , all of that goes {pause} into {disfmarker} uh , that all of that is transformed by uh , uh , K - KL or something , or {disfmarker} ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm . There will probably be ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mu .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "yeah , one single KL to transform everything", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "or {vocalsound} {pause} uh ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No transform the PLP", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "per", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and only transform the other I 'm not sure .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Well no ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "This is {pause} still something {pause} that", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah , we {pause} don't know {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So there 's a question of whether you would {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Two e @ @ it 's one .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Right . Whether you would transform together or just one . Yeah . Might wanna try it both ways . But that 's interesting . So that 's something that you 're {disfmarker} you haven't trained yet but are preparing to train , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Um {pause} {pause} Yeah , so I think Hynek will be here Monday .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": " Monday or Tuesday . So", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So I think , you know , we need to {pause} choose the {disfmarker} choose the experiments carefully , so we can get uh key {disfmarker} {pause} key questions answered {pause} uh before then", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "and {pause} leave other ones aside even if it {pause} leaves incomplete {pause} tables {vocalsound} {pause} someplace , uh {pause} uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really time to {disfmarker} {pause} time to choose .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Um , let me pass this out , {pause} by the way . Um These are {disfmarker} Did {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} {pause} did I interrupt you ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have one .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Were there other things that you wanted to {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh , no . I don't think so .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , I have one .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh , thanks .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Ah ! {pause} OK . {pause} OK , we have {pause} lots of them .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "We have one . ", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "OK , so {vocalsound} um , Something I asked {disfmarker} So they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing {pause} the {disfmarker} the VAD I guess they mean voice activity detection So again , it 's the silence {disfmarker} So they 've just trained up a net {pause} which has two outputs , I believe . Um {vocalsound} I asked uh {pause} Hynek whether {disfmarker} I haven't talked to Sunil {disfmarker} I asked Hynek whether {pause} they compared that to {pause} just taking the nets we already had {pause} and summing up the probabilities .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh . {pause} To get the speech {disfmarker} voice activity detection , or else just using the silence , {pause} if there 's only one {pause} silence output . Um {pause} And , he didn't think they had , um . But on the other hand , maybe they can get by with a smaller net and {pause} maybe {pause} sometimes you don't run the other , maybe there 's a computational advantage to having a separate net , anyway .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "So um Their uh {disfmarker} {pause} the results look pretty good . Um , {pause} I mean , not uniformly .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I mean , there 's a {disfmarker} an example or two {pause} that you can find , where it made it slightly worse , but {pause} uh in {disfmarker} in all but a couple {pause} examples .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But they have a question of the result . Um how are trained the {disfmarker} the LDA filter ? How obtained the LDA filter ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I I 'm sorry . I don't understand your question .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes , um the LDA filter {pause} needs some {pause} training set {pause} to obtain the filter . Maybe I don't know exactly how {pause} they are obtained .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It 's on {pause} training .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Training , with the training test of each {disfmarker} You understand me ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh for example , {pause} LDA filter {pause} need a set of {disfmarker} {pause} a set of training {pause} to obtain the filter .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And maybe {pause} for the Italian , for the TD {pause} TE on for Finnish , these filter are {disfmarker} are obtained with their own training set .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yes , I don't know . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} so that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very good question , then {disfmarker} now that it {disfmarker} {pause} I understand it . It 's \" yeah , where does the LDA come from ? \" In the {disfmarker} In {pause} earlier experiments , they had taken LDA {pause} from a completely different database , right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , because maybe it the same situation that the neural network training with their own", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "set .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "So that 's a good question . Where does it come from ? Yeah , I don't know . Um , {pause} but uh to tell you the {pause} truth , I wasn't actually looking at the LDA so much when I {disfmarker} I was looking at it I was {pause} mostly thinking about the {disfmarker} {pause} the VAD . And um , it ap {pause} it ap Oh what does {disfmarker} what does ASP ? Oh that 's {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "The features , yeah . Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't understand also", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It says \" baseline ASP \" .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "what is {disfmarker} {pause} what is the difference between ASP and uh baseline over ?", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "ASP .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah , I don't know .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Anybody know {pause} any {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh . There it is .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Um Cuz there 's \" baseline Aurora \" {pause} above it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "And it 's {disfmarker} This is mostly better than baseline , although in some cases it 's a little worse , in a couple cases .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well , it says baseline ASP is twenty - three mill {pause} minus thirteen .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , it says what it is . But I don't how that 's different {pause} from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "From the baseline . {comment} OK .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "I think this was {disfmarker} {pause} I think this is the same point we were at when {disfmarker} when we were up in Oregon .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} {pause} I think it 's the C - zero {disfmarker} using C - zero instead of log energy .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Ah , OK , mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , it 's this .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Oh . OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "It should be that , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "They s they say in here that the VAD is not used as an additional feature .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Shouldn't it be {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Because {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Does {disfmarker} does anybody know how they 're using it ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So {disfmarker} so what they 're doing here is , {pause} i", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "if you look down at the block diagram , {pause} um , {pause} they estimate {disfmarker} they get a {disfmarker} {pause} they get an estimate {pause} of whether it 's speech or silence ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But that {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then they have a median filter of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And so um , {pause} basically they 're trying to find stretches . The median filter is enforcing a {disfmarker} i it having some continuity .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "You find stretches where the {pause} combination of the {pause} frame wise VAD and the {disfmarker} {pause} the median filter say that there 's a stretch of silence . And then it 's going through and just throwing the data away .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Right ? So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't understand . You mean it 's throwing out frames ? Before {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It 's throwing out chunks of frames , yeah . There 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the median filter is enforcing that it 's not gonna be single cases of frames , or isolated frames .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So it 's throwing out frames and the thing is {pause} um , {pause} what I don't understand is how they 're doing this with H T", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , that 's what I was just gonna ask .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "This is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "How can you just throw out frames ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , you {disfmarker} you can ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "i", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ? I mean y you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "it stretches again . For single frames I think it would be pretty hard .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But if you say speech starts here , speech ends there .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Huh .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , you can basically remove the {disfmarker} the frames from the feature {disfmarker} feature files .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , so I mean in the {disfmarker} i i in the {disfmarker} in the decoding , you 're saying that we 're gonna decode from here to here .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I t", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} they 're treating it , {pause} you know , like uh {disfmarker} well , it 's not isolated word , but {disfmarker} but connected , you know , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "In the text they say that this {disfmarker} this is a tentative block diagram of a possible configuration we could think of . So that sort of sounds like they 're not doing that yet .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well . {pause} No they {disfmarker} they have numbers though , right ? So I think they 're {disfmarker} they 're doing something like that . I think that they 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} I think what I mean by tha that is they 're trying to come up with a block diagram that 's plausible for the standard . In other words , it 's {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} I mean from the point of view of {disfmarker} of uh reducing the number of bits you have to transmit it 's not a bad idea to detect silence anyway .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . I 'm just wondering what exactly did they do up in this table if it wasn't this .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Um . But it 's {disfmarker} the thing is it 's that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} Certainly it would be tricky about it intrans in transmitting voice , {pause} uh uh for listening to , is that these kinds of things {pause} uh cut {pause} speech off a lot .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Right ? And so {pause} um", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Plus it 's gonna introduce delays .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It does introduce delays but they 're claiming that it 's {disfmarker} it 's within the {disfmarker} {pause} the boundaries of it .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "And the LDA introduces delays , and b {pause} what he 's suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it doesn't introduce {pause} uh , any more delay . I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same {pause} time the LDA {pause} down here {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} Wh what 's the difference between TLDA and SLDA ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Temporal and spectral .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "Ah , thank you .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Temporal LDA .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "Yeah , you would know that .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "So um . The temporal LDA does in fact include the same {disfmarker} so that {disfmarker} I think he {disfmarker} well , by {disfmarker} by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means {pause} if you construct it this way , this {disfmarker} this delay would work in that way", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Ah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and then it 'd be OK . They {disfmarker} they clearly did actually remove {pause} silent sections in order {disfmarker} because they {pause} got these {pause} word error rate {pause} results . So um I think that it 's {disfmarker} it 's nice to do that in this because in fact , it 's gonna give a better word error result and therefore will help within an evaluation . Whereas to whether this would actually be in a final standard , I don't know . Um . Uh , as you know , part of the problem with evaluation right now is that the {pause} word models are pretty bad and nobody wants {disfmarker} {pause} has {disfmarker} has approached improving them . So {pause} it 's possible that a lot of the problems {pause} with so many insertions and so forth would go away if they were better word models {pause} to begin with . So {pause} this might just be a temporary thing . But {disfmarker} But , on the other hand , and maybe {disfmarker} maybe it 's a decent idea . So um The question we 're gonna wanna go {pause} through next week when Hynek shows up I guess is given that we 've been {disfmarker} if you look at what we 've been trying , we 're uh looking at {pause} uh , by then I guess , combinations of features and multi - band Uh , and we 've been looking at {pause} cross - language , cross {pause} task {pause} issues . And they 've been not so much looking at {pause} the cross task uh multiple language issues . But they 've been looking at uh {disfmarker} {pause} at these issues . At the on - line normalization and the uh {pause} voice activity detection . And I guess when he comes here we 're gonna have to start deciding about {pause} um what do we choose {pause} from what we 've looked at {pause} to um blend with {pause} some group of things in what they 've looked at And once we choose that , {pause} how do we split up the {pause} effort ? Uh , because we still have {disfmarker} even once we choose , {pause} we 've still got {pause} uh another {pause} month or so , I mean there 's holidays in the way , but {disfmarker} but uh {pause} I think the evaluation data comes January thirty - first so there 's still a fair amount of time {pause} to do things together it 's just that they probably should be somewhat more coherent between the two sites {pause} in that {disfmarker} that amount of time .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "When they removed the silence frames , did they insert some kind of a marker so that the recognizer knows it 's {disfmarker} {pause} knows when it 's time to back trace or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Well , see they , I {disfmarker} I think they 're Um . I don't know the {disfmarker} {pause} the specifics of how they 're doing it . They 're {disfmarker} {pause} they 're getting around the way the recognizer works because they 're not allowed to {pause} um , change the scripts {pause} for the recognizer , {pause} I believe .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh , right . Maybe they 're just inserting some nummy frames or something ?", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "So . Uh . Uh , you know that 's what I had thought . But I don't {disfmarker} I don't think they are .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I mean that 's {disfmarker} sort of what {disfmarker} the way I had imagined would happen is that on the other side , yeah you p put some low level noise or something . Probably don't want all zeros .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Most recognizers don't like zeros but {vocalsound} but {pause} you know , {pause} put some epsilon in or some rand", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "sorry epsilon random variable {pause} in or something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Some constant vector . I mean i w Or something {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Maybe not a constant but it doesn't , uh {disfmarker} don't like to divide by the variance of that , but I mean it 's", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "That 's right . But something that {disfmarker} what I mean is something that is {pause} very distinguishable from {pause} speech .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "So that the {disfmarker} the silence model in HTK will always pick it up .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} that 's what I thought they would do . or else , uh {pause} uh maybe there is some indicator to tell it to start and stop , I don't know .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "But whatever they did , I mean they have to play within the rules of this specific evaluation .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "We c we can find out .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Cuz you gotta do something . Otherwise , if it 's just a bunch of speech , stuck together {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "No they 're {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "It would do badly", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "and it didn't so badly , right ? So they did something .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah . Uh . So , OK , So I think {pause} this brings me up to date a bit . It hopefully brings other {pause} people up to date a bit . And um Um {pause} I think {disfmarker} Uh , I wanna look at these numbers off - line a little bit and think about it and {disfmarker} {pause} and talk with everybody uh , {pause} outside of this meeting . Um , but uh No I mean it sounds like {disfmarker} I mean {pause} there {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there are the usual number of {disfmarker} of {pause} little {disfmarker} little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they 're getting ironed out . And now we 're {pause} seem to be kind of in a position to actually {pause} uh , {pause} look at stuff and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and compare things . So I think that 's {disfmarker} that 's pretty good . Um {pause} I don't know what the {disfmarker} One of the things I wonder about , {pause} coming back to the first results you talked about , is {disfmarker} is {pause} how much , {pause} uh {pause} things could be helped {pause} by more parameters . And uh {disfmarker} {pause} And uh how many more parameters we can afford to have , {vocalsound} {pause} in terms of the uh computational limits . Because anyway when we go to {pause} twice as much data {pause} and have the same number of parameters , particularly when it 's twice as much data and it 's quite diverse , um , I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Uh , just have a bigger hidden layer . Uh But {disfmarker} I doubt it would {pause} help by forty per cent . But {vocalsound} {pause} but uh", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Just curious . How are we doing on the {pause} resources ? Disk , and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I think we 're alright ,", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "um , {pause} not much problems with that .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Computation ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It 's OK .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "We {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Well this table took uh {pause} more than five days to get back .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , well .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Are {disfmarker} were you folks using Gin ? That 's a {disfmarker} that just died , you know ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm , no . You were using Gin {comment} perhaps , yeah ? No .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "No ? Oh , that 's good .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "It just died .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . Yeah , {pause} we 're gonna get a replacement {pause} server that 'll be a faster server , {pause} actually .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "PhD E" }, { "content": "That 'll be {disfmarker} It 's a {pause} seven hundred fifty megahertz uh SUN", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Hmm . {comment} Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "uh {pause} But it won't be installed for {pause} a little while .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Tonic .", "speaker": "PhD C" }, { "content": "U Go ahead .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Do we {disfmarker} Do we have that big new IBM machine the , I think in th", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "We have the {pause} little tiny IBM machine {vocalsound} {pause} that might someday grow up to be a big {pause} IBM machine . It 's got s slots for eight , uh IBM was donating five , I think we only got two so far , processors . We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors . They ended up being five fifty . So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz , we ended up with two {pause} that are five hundred and fifty megahertz . And more are supposed to come soon and there 's only a moderate amount of dat of memory . So I don't think {pause} anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to {pause} spend much time {pause} uh {pause} with it , but uh {vocalsound} Hopefully , {pause} they 'll get us some more {pause} parts , soon and {disfmarker} Uh , yeah , I think that 'll be {disfmarker} once we get it populated , {pause} that 'll be a nice machine . I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there . And uh {disfmarker} and uh a nice amount of memory . Uh so it 'll be a pr pretty fast Linux machine .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And if we can do things on Linux , {pause} some of the machines we have going already , like Swede ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Um It seems pretty fast .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Mm - hmm .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} I think Fudge is pretty fast too .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Yeah , I mean you can check with uh {pause} Dave Johnson . I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} I think the machine is just sitting there . And it does have two processors , you know and {disfmarker} {pause} Somebody could do {disfmarker} {pause} you know , uh , check out {pause} uh the multi - threading {pause} libraries . And {pause} I mean i it 's possible that the {disfmarker} I mean , I guess the prudent thing to do would be for somebody to do the work on {disfmarker} {pause} on getting our code running {pause} on that machine with two processors {pause} even though there aren't five or eight . There 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's gonna be debugging hassles and then we 'd be set for when we did have five or eight , to have it really be useful . But . {pause} Notice how I said somebody and {vocalsound} turned my head your direction . That 's one thing you don't get in these recordings . You don't get the {disfmarker} {pause} don't get the visuals but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "I is it um {pause} mostly um the neural network trainings that are {pause} um slowing us down or the HTK runs that are slowing us down ?", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Uh , I think yes . Uh , {vocalsound} Isn't that right ? I mean I think you 're {disfmarker} you 're sort of held up by both , right ? If the {disfmarker} if the neural net trainings were a hundred times faster {pause} you still wouldn't {pause} be anything {disfmarker} running through these a hundred times faster because you 'd {pause} be stuck by the HTK trainings ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "But if the HTK {disfmarker} I mean I think they 're both {disfmarker} It sounded like they were roughly equal ? Is that about right ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Because , um {pause} I think that 'll be running Linux , and Sw - Swede and Fudge are already running Linux so , {pause} um I could try to get {pause} um the train the neural network trainings or the HTK stuff running under Linux , and to start with I 'm {pause} wondering which one I should pick first .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "Uh , probably the neural net cuz it 's probably {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} {pause} it 's um {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know . They both {disfmarker} HTK we use for {pause} um {pause} this Aurora stuff Um {pause} Um , I think {pause} It 's not clear yet what we 're gonna use {pause} for trainings uh {disfmarker} Well , {pause} there 's the trainings uh {disfmarker} is it the training that takes the time , or the decoding ? Uh , is it about equal {pause} between the two ? For {disfmarker} for Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "For HTK ?", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "For {disfmarker} Yeah . For the Aurora ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Uh Training is longer .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "OK . Well , I don't know how we can {disfmarker} I don't know how to {disfmarker} Do we have HTK source ? Is that {disfmarker} Yeah .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "You would think that would fairly trivially {disfmarker} the training would , anyway , th the testing {pause} uh I don't {disfmarker} I don't {pause} think would {pause} parallelize all that well . But I think {pause} that {pause} you could {pause} certainly do d um , {pause} distributed , sort of {disfmarker} {pause} Ah , no , it 's the {disfmarker} {pause} each individual {pause} sentence is pretty tricky to parallelize . But you could split up the sentences in a test set .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "They have a {disfmarker} they have a thing for doing that and th they have for awhile , in H T And you can parallelize the training .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah ?", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "And run it on several machines", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Aha !", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "and it just basically keeps counts . And there 's something {disfmarker} {pause} a final {pause} thing that you run and it accumulates all the counts together .", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "I see .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Mmm .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "I don't what their scripts are {pause} set up to do for the Aurora stuff , but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "PhD A" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "PhD D" }, { "content": "Something that we haven't really settled on yet is other than {pause} this Aurora stuff , {pause} uh what do we do , large vocabulary {pause} training slash testing {pause} for uh tandem systems . Cuz we hadn't really done much with tandem systems for larger stuff . Cuz we had this one collaboration with CMU and we used SPHINX . Uh , we 're also gonna be collaborating with SRI and we have their {disfmarker} have theirs . Um {pause} So {pause} I don't know Um . So I {disfmarker} I think the {disfmarker} the advantage of going with the neural net thing is that we 're gonna use the neural net trainings , no matter what , for a lot of the things we 're doing ,", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "OK .", "speaker": "Grad G" }, { "content": "whereas , w exactly which HMM {disfmarker} Gaussian - mixture - based HMM thing we use is gonna depend uh So with that , maybe we should uh {vocalsound} go to our {nonvocalsound} digit recitation task . And , it 's about eleven fifty . Canned . Uh , I can {disfmarker} I can start over here . Great , uh , could you give Adam a call . Tell him to He 's at two nine seven seven .", "speaker": "Professor B" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Grad F" }, { "content": "OK . I think we can {vocalsound} @ @ You know Herve 's coming tomorrow , right ? Herve will be giving a talk , yeah , talk at eleven . Did uh , did everybody sign these consent Er everybody Has everyone signed a consent form before , on previous meetings ? You don't have to do it again each time Yes . microphones off", "speaker": "Professor B" } ]

[ { "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it much changes ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hello , Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bongiorno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think you should punish him .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oop .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not at all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just press the okay button , it works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh wait uh wait up .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not something dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But they like dark colours ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you said in the p", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just one slide back ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , that's interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's uh colourful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you know the phone ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know the phone ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but I can imagine it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um thirty five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , that one , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I've seen it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes . Apparently .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , Roo ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "could you do your presentation ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Shape .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Slippery .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "s because um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to grab it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So m Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It would be very new ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like the watch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , maybe m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You you walk", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . And wha", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes , it does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll come to that later .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This will be the remote , right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh it's do it's done before .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A volume , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , what about mute ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "About mute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And click it to muten the device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For you too , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It performs the action . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I don't think either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . I don't think you need it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "On screen display . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , well", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Kineti okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "too {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "r", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "rubber with colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , spongy materials .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "evalu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's very unlogical .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the regular chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Think so too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Standard ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no . Nothing more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sebas", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "on the energy , well , we decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "User interface um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , they can work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sorry , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They cannot work with double-curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . W start with the casing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Single-curved .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think they can . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Every device {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What if not ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Battery and solar , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Grey yellow , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or black and yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Black and yellow , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , I've read .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Voice recognition , of course .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What what did you say ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , the signs .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think both .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I do . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the s uh the sideways .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the the back . Or the back .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Regular .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Use with {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um Sebastian has everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll put it online .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it much changes ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hello , Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bongiorno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think you should punish him .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oop .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not at all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just press the okay button , it works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh wait uh wait up .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not something dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But they like dark colours ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you said in the p", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just one slide back ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , that's interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's uh colourful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you know the phone ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know the phone ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but I can imagine it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um thirty five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , that one , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I've seen it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes . Apparently .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , Roo ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "could you do your presentation ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Shape .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Slippery .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "s because um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to grab it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So m Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It would be very new ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like the watch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , maybe m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You you walk", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . And wha", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes , it does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll come to that later .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This will be the remote , right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh it's do it's done before .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A volume , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , what about mute ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "About mute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And click it to muten the device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For you too , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It performs the action . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I don't think either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . I don't think you need it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "On screen display . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , well", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Kineti okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "too {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "r", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "rubber with colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , spongy materials .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "evalu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's very unlogical .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the regular chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Think so too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Standard ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no . Nothing more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sebas", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "on the energy , well , we decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "User interface um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , they can work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sorry , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They cannot work with double-curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . W start with the casing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Single-curved .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think they can . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Every device {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What if not ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Battery and solar , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Grey yellow , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or black and yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Black and yellow , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , I've read .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Voice recognition , of course .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What what did you say ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , the signs .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think both .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I do . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the s uh the sideways .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the the back . Or the back .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Regular .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Use with {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um Sebastian has everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll put it online .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it much changes ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hello , Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bongiorno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think you should punish him .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oop .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not at all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just press the okay button , it works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh wait uh wait up .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not something dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But they like dark colours ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you said in the p", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just one slide back ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , that's interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's uh colourful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you know the phone ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know the phone ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but I can imagine it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um thirty five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , that one , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I've seen it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes . Apparently .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , Roo ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "could you do your presentation ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Shape .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Slippery .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "s because um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to grab it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So m Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It would be very new ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like the watch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , maybe m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You you walk", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . And wha", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes , it does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll come to that later .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This will be the remote , right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh it's do it's done before .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A volume , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , what about mute ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "About mute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And click it to muten the device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For you too , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It performs the action . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I don't think either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . I don't think you need it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "On screen display . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , well", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Kineti okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "too {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "r", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "rubber with colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , spongy materials .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "evalu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's very unlogical .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the regular chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Think so too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Standard ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no . Nothing more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sebas", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "on the energy , well , we decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "User interface um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , they can work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sorry , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They cannot work with double-curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . W start with the casing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Single-curved .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think they can . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Every device {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What if not ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Battery and solar , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Grey yellow , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or black and yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Black and yellow , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , I've read .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Voice recognition , of course .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What what did you say ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , the signs .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think both .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I do . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the s uh the sideways .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the the back . Or the back .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Regular .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Use with {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um Sebastian has everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll put it online .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it much changes ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hello , Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bongiorno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think you should punish him .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oop .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not at all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just press the okay button , it works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh wait uh wait up .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not something dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But they like dark colours ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you said in the p", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just one slide back ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , that's interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's uh colourful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you know the phone ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know the phone ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but I can imagine it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um thirty five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , that one , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I've seen it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes . Apparently .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , Roo ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "could you do your presentation ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Shape .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Slippery .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "s because um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to grab it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So m Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It would be very new ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like the watch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , maybe m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You you walk", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . And wha", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes , it does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll come to that later .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This will be the remote , right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh it's do it's done before .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A volume , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , what about mute ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "About mute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And click it to muten the device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For you too , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It performs the action . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I don't think either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . I don't think you need it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "On screen display . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , well", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Kineti okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "too {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "r", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "rubber with colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , spongy materials .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "evalu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's very unlogical .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the regular chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Think so too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Standard ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no . Nothing more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sebas", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "on the energy , well , we decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "User interface um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , they can work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sorry , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They cannot work with double-curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . W start with the casing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Single-curved .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think they can . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Every device {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What if not ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Battery and solar , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Grey yellow , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or black and yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Black and yellow , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , I've read .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Voice recognition , of course .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What what did you say ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , the signs .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think both .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I do . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the s uh the sideways .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the the back . Or the back .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Regular .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Use with {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um Sebastian has everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll put it online .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it much changes ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hello , Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bongiorno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think you should punish him .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oop .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not at all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just press the okay button , it works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh wait uh wait up .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not something dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But they like dark colours ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you said in the p", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just one slide back ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , that's interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's uh colourful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you know the phone ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know the phone ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but I can imagine it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um thirty five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , that one , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I've seen it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes . Apparently .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , Roo ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "could you do your presentation ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Shape .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Slippery .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "s because um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to grab it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So m Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It would be very new ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like the watch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , maybe m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You you walk", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . And wha", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes , it does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll come to that later .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This will be the remote , right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh it's do it's done before .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A volume , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , what about mute ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "About mute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And click it to muten the device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For you too , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It performs the action . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I don't think either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . I don't think you need it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "On screen display . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , well", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Kineti okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "too {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "r", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "rubber with colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , spongy materials .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "evalu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's very unlogical .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the regular chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Think so too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Standard ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no . Nothing more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sebas", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "on the energy , well , we decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "User interface um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , they can work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sorry , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They cannot work with double-curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . W start with the casing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Single-curved .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think they can . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Every device {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What if not ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Battery and solar , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Grey yellow , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or black and yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Black and yellow , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , I've read .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Voice recognition , of course .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What what did you say ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , the signs .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think both .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I do . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the s uh the sideways .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the the back . Or the back .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Regular .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Use with {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um Sebastian has everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll put it online .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it much changes ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hello , Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bongiorno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think you should punish him .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oop .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not at all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just press the okay button , it works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh wait uh wait up .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not something dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But they like dark colours ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you said in the p", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just one slide back ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , that's interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's uh colourful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you know the phone ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know the phone ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but I can imagine it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um thirty five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , that one , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I've seen it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes . Apparently .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , Roo ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "could you do your presentation ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Shape .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Slippery .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "s because um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to grab it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So m Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It would be very new ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like the watch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , maybe m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You you walk", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . And wha", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes , it does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll come to that later .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This will be the remote , right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh it's do it's done before .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A volume , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , what about mute ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "About mute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And click it to muten the device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For you too , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It performs the action . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I don't think either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . I don't think you need it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "On screen display . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , well", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Kineti okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "too {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "r", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "rubber with colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , spongy materials .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "evalu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's very unlogical .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the regular chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Think so too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Standard ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no . Nothing more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sebas", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "on the energy , well , we decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "User interface um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , they can work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sorry , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They cannot work with double-curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . W start with the casing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Single-curved .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think they can . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Every device {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What if not ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Battery and solar , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Grey yellow , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or black and yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Black and yellow , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , I've read .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Voice recognition , of course .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What what did you say ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , the signs .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think both .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I do . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the s uh the sideways .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the the back . Or the back .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Regular .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Use with {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um Sebastian has everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll put it online .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it much changes ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hello , Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bongiorno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think you should punish him .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oop .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not at all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just press the okay button , it works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh wait uh wait up .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not something dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But they like dark colours ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you said in the p", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just one slide back ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , that's interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's uh colourful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you know the phone ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know the phone ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but I can imagine it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um thirty five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , that one , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I've seen it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes . Apparently .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , Roo ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "could you do your presentation ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Shape .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Slippery .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "s because um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to grab it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So m Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It would be very new ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like the watch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , maybe m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You you walk", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . And wha", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes , it does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll come to that later .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This will be the remote , right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh it's do it's done before .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A volume , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , what about mute ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "About mute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And click it to muten the device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For you too , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It performs the action . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I don't think either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . I don't think you need it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "On screen display . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , well", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Kineti okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "too {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "r", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "rubber with colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , spongy materials .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "evalu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's very unlogical .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the regular chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Think so too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Standard ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no . Nothing more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sebas", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "on the energy , well , we decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "User interface um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , they can work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sorry , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They cannot work with double-curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . W start with the casing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Single-curved .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think they can . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Every device {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What if not ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Battery and solar , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Grey yellow , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or black and yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Black and yellow , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , I've read .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Voice recognition , of course .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What what did you say ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , the signs .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think both .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I do . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the s uh the sideways .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the the back . Or the back .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Regular .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Use with {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um Sebastian has everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll put it online .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "{gap} Do you need to change anything on it ? Because otherwise I will already open it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} Mm , don't think so .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Unless uh things have suddenly change again .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Is it much changes ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh don't know . Maybe uh you've got new information , {vocalsound} like uh last time .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh I didn't {disfmarker} No no . I do hot have {disfmarker} Only the same information . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Hello , Sebastian .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hello hello Mister P_M_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe uh Miss uh Tentel is with us as well , in the control room .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , that's where the thinking goes on . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , it's that Roo again , always late .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Bongiorno .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Bongiorno .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think you should punish him .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You're the P_M_ . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Punish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I see some interesting {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You wish . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Possibilities , yeah ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} People , welcome back .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Welcome . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The third meeting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oop .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um I have some points I would like to {disfmarker} uh some some issues I would like to point out . Um {vocalsound} first of all , um if you make minutes yourself as well , uh like Sebastian does , um could you put them on the shared folder ? If you do not make minutes , no problem , but it's easy for me to see what you uh wrote down ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so I could {disfmarker} uh can uh um use that in the in the report . {vocalsound} Um the second thing , um {vocalsound} I was th uh s thinking to myself , I have this little remote control , and I'm talking to it , but I still need to point to the television , because it works with infrared . That's quite strange .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . We'll come to that later , I g I think .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um {vocalsound} the agenda for now {disfmarker} uh uh are there any pre-discussion questions ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Not at all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "we wi we will have your individual presentations , uh then the decision on the remote control concept , um and uh the closing . Forty minutes in total for this . So um {vocalsound} I think we we can immedis immediately start with the individual presentations , um the progress you've made .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um I think it might be smart to look at uh Ruud's um information first , because I understood there are some uh significant changes in the market situation .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Hmm ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Alright .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Just press the okay button , it works .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} Okay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah . My method ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} How surprising . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , findings . Uh {disfmarker} Ease of use is important , but uh innovation is more important , and a fancy look and feel is uh even more important . And uh some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their uh clothes , shoes and furniture ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and that they want spongy material . Probably watch too much Sponge Bob .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the older group uh still prefers dark colours . Simple shapes {gap} uh m material . But we {disfmarker} since we are concentrating on uh the younger group {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Uh w wait a sec wait a se", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh wait uh wait up .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "uh could you go to the previous slide ? Um because I'm taking minutes", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Um were the important themes enclose . Yeah {gap} okay . The feel of {gap} to be spongy {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh so do you think um when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , uh one example given was this , so um I assume they just want something colourful . Not uh specifically uh an apple as a remote control or something .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Not something dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But they like dark colours ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "you said in the p", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No , uh the younger group likes uh more colourful uh objects .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "I had {vocalsound} {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But can you can you go back to that slide ? The {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Which one ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "just one slide back ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "no no no . Yes . Okay , and the feel of the material has to be spongy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Has it something to do with that uh natural feeling also , do you think ? {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh well , it might .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But personally I wouldn't like a sponge as a remote control . But {disfmarker} Maybe soft material or something . But not a real sponge .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , so so , yeah , it might not be t uh it it shouldn't be too hard . It it {disfmarker} maybe it rubber or or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "yeah . {vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and like uh the older group likes familiar materials ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Or we could make {disfmarker} oh .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but that doesn't mean we should use wood , So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , this this is an example of what they would like . But since we're conten concentrating on uh the younger group , I think we should use soft materials and uh make it colourful or uh like cell phones , exch exchangeable covers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Well , that's interesting .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's quite interesting . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You could make a few v very colourful ones , and uh a very traditional co cover .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , o o I'm thinking about uh the Bananarama telephone uh {vocalsound} telephone from uh Siemens . The yellow uh rubber telephone .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's the it's the rubber uh cover .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , it is , it is i yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And it's uh colourful .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It looks likes a banana . {vocalsound} We have the fruit , we have the colours . {vocalsound} We have the simple design .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Do you know the phone ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't know the phone ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It's the Siemens uh C_ twenty five ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but I can imagine it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I believe it's it's the one the Post-bank uh gave away ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um thirty five .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , that one , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "the very {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And the b the light blue and {vocalsound} it's also in yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Now I kn uh {disfmarker} oh , I know , I know . Yes , I I've seen it . I've seen it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You kn you know , Ruud , as well ? About th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I've seen it ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay . Um uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "okay . Do you have {gap} {disfmarker} uh thit {disfmarker} that was {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Kay . Uh that's about it .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . {vocalsound} Okay , so the the m uh important findings are uh innovation is more important than ease of use for the {disfmarker} our target group .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um colouring is important and and uh soft materials .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So ease of use is important , but technology is twice as important . And what was even more important ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh the fancy look and feel .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . So that's the most important thing for our customers .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yes . Apparently .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , Roo ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "could you do your presentation ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Well , I don't ha really have much to add , um because most of things we already said in uh the previous uh discussion . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , well it's good to to sum up uh the things we already thought about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Uh the previous ideas were voice recognition and uh the round button for uh the p channel programming and uh volume . Well , a few interface I uh I found on the internet are are these . These are both with uh with voice recognition , but they're very advanced and very high-tech and {vocalsound} just um , well , a weird um shape .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Shape .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I suggest {disfmarker} I couldn't uh {disfmarker} I had a small uh mock-up uh {vocalsound} sign on the {vocalsound} on {gap} paper .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But it didn't work . My pen didn't load um the information . So I made a really simple {vocalsound} f uh a shape on uh {disfmarker} in um PowerPoint . But we could make uh a round uh an oval uh um remote control . Uh yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . But it's it's kind of uh it's kind of o organic , so that's very good .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And what I'm thinking about , maybe um we should make very light but um uh a grip um {disfmarker} I mean this is how you hold a remote control .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um it shouldn't be too uh glatt , too slippery ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Slippery .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "s because um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you have something like uh the Siemens phone , it's rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "You have to grab it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , exactly .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So it's easy in your hand {disfmarker} Uh indeed .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . There are there are also remote controls who have uh a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , ex for your fingers , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "so you can get a really good grip on it . So you you don't have to um attain much pressure to it . It's it's a lot easier .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . It grips automatically . Yeah , {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So m Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But I'll I'll go into that deeper in my presentation .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh and um to add on um Ruud's information , in this um interface we can have uh high-tech with the voice recognition and uh , well , the the fancy colours and uh and so on , and still have the ease of use , because we have an easy interface . And all the other remote controls are high-tech in buttons and uh and so on .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah . Way too much I think for our goal ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So if you have the voice recognition , you can {vocalsound} you can programme like thirty uh um thirty c uh controls on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , b but I think we'll {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , but I'll I'll go into that ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities . Um I had a talk with uh our manufacturing uh division , and uh we had a talk about all the different components um who are in this design . Uh these are the things we've looked at . And of course I used the web to uh find my information . About the casing , we have three different casing possibilities . We have the uncurved or flat case . Uh that's the most common uh remote con control form uh we're used to is just a {disfmarker} it ju it's just a box . I'm sorry I I don't have any pictures of uh of this thing . {vocalsound} We have uh a curved one . It's uh curved in two dimensions . You have to imagine it's a bit like a wave form . So it's uh a little more advanced in its in its shape .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh and we have an even more advanced uh shape , which is curved in three dimension . I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the uh big grey image uh you had in your presentation . The the big remote control , something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But it's quite uh advanced and it's it's quite daring to to use I think . Um for these casings we have uh different types of finishing . We can use plastic , which is uh very slippery and maybe not so nice , but you can give it any colour , uh which is the same for rubber , but it's not slippery . We can use wood and titanium . Well , um we cannot use the titanium on the double curve cases . And these latex cases , there's there's just the plastic ones uh won't allow the use of solar cells as an energy source {disfmarker} source . Which brings me to the different energy sources . {vocalsound} Um well , we even seem to have uh hand dyn dynamos for uh powering our uh {vocalsound} remote controls .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "You really have to imagine like {vocalsound} winding up your {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Great . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it would be very new to the market ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It would be very new ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but it's a kind of a retro uh style , I think .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Well ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "this is quite interesting . Uh there's there's also a kinetic energy supply . So um when you're watching T_V_ uh or when you're {disfmarker} you you have to um make some kind of energy {disfmarker} kinetic energy by shaking the remote or throwing it against the wall , whatever you wish .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Like the watch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It have {disfmarker} it it has to move , that's the the sense of it . And you can store the energy in the in the thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I think um , if if I can hook on to that , um the kinetic thing is very funny .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . It's very funny indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean solar is {disfmarker} of course it's nice , but it's , well , your uh your calculator has a solar panel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Indeed .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um hand dynamo {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But if you're watching a movie , how many times uh you take the the remote control and and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , maybe m", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "if uh if you have a watch , you have the kinetic uh idea in a watch also .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , I know .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "You you walk", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and uh {disfmarker} but uh you {disfmarker} you're sitting on a couch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But you know you know from your own watch {disfmarker} your watch uses uh a minimal con it consumes a minimal amount of energy . {gap} the the shaking of your body , which is almost uh every activity makes your uh body shake , uh it charges it . But uh the problem here is that it it supplies a a very little amount of kinetic energy . So I think uh you have a problem when you're watching a movie and uh you haven't moved the remote uh i remote control in a {disfmarker} in an amount of time , and you want t to switch uh the channel or something ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . And wha", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "well , m it might not work . So that's something you have to keep in mind .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So , but maybe {vocalsound} maybe there's a possibility com to combine it with m uh traditional batteries , so we can save on the batteries", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "and um when there's enough kinet kinetic energy , use the kinetic energy , and otherwise use the batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , because I guess the voice recognition feature u consumes quite a f uh a lot of power .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh yes , it does .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll come to that later .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we of course have the traditional uh solar power , which is just uh uh uh uh uh a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity . {vocalsound} The user interface controls , um of course we have the push-buttons and uh we also have scroll-wheels . And these scroll-wheels can also be integrated with buttons . So it's just like a mouse . You can scroll 'em , you can also push it . Um {vocalsound} uh in the indicators we have the L_C_D_ displays , which means uh you can watch uh in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is uh currently {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "uh and we also have double scroll-buttons , which are just two of these things . So we don't really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our uh uh in our last meeting , the the thing with the the round with the four {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Oh , we can just make four push-buttons in a form of a round .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yes . That is possible too . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{gap} {disfmarker} But I th I don't think uh the scroll-wheels {disfmarker} I had some {disfmarker} I had some information about it too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I don't think {vocalsound} there's any possibility for us to use scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I d I can't see uh any uh scenario where you would use a scroll-wheel with a button on it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , mayb uh well , m me neither . Maybe when you integrate some functions .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "This will be the remote , right ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um with uh maybe a channel selector . What about integrating a scroll-bar on this side ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , uh that's a possibility ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh it's do it's done before .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because this is how you keep it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "but {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . It's quite quite good , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But Flores , think about a scenario where y where you would use the scroll-button for {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Volume ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , it's it {disfmarker} well , i what he means is there's an {disfmarker} button integrated in the scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "A volume , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "There's no scenario where you use uh the button in the scroll-wheel . You just use the wheel .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , what about mute ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "About mute .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Thi i i m I guess uh th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "this is my volume button . And I can either on this side or this side um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Yes . Well , okay . Well , that that that's one possibility , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And click it to muten the device .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , okay . It's quite goods .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and it makes it different from the traditional uh devices on this market . So I'm looking for a way to uh make it a little different than the traditional ones .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So maybe um {disfmarker} I guess that {disfmarker} that's something you two uh need to think about .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh Ruud , wha what do you thing about uh a scroll-bar ? Uh scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "it's obvious obviously new . So it might attract uh the young customers .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . {vocalsound} But it's done before , uh there are many other devices um like uh telephones and our uh radio , pocket radios . We use this .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker} Well , it's it's been done years ago and I don't see it anywhere now .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , all the Sony telephones use it , for example , for volume .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So maybe it's not no {gap} .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Nokia has a {disfmarker} well , okay , it's not really a scroll-wheel , but on their side th the the volume button is on the side , because you gri grab it like this .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm . Yes , but it uses two separate buttons .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . I know , it's not really a scroll-wheel . No . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It doesn't use a {disfmarker} {gap} . Well . Uh something for uh Roo here . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "For you too , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , I believe uh if you have uh what we've earlier said , um the grip uh places in in the remote control . You have your hand on one place on the remote control , so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Wi within reach . Yes , you have to .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So in that case uh the volume button on the side uh of the remote control would be perfect .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . {gap} yes . Yeah , yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Sebastian . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , um we have to know , if you want to use uh these rubber double-curved c uh case , um you must use these push uh push-buttons . There's no way you can integrate L_C_D_ displays . There's no way you can integrate scroll-wheels , because it's all curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There's {disfmarker} there are no uh flat areas where you can incorporate these things . So that's a limitation . {vocalsound} About um the components , uh just the hardware . We basically have uh three types of chips we can use and uh these chips incorporate all the Logica and um um uh hardware that is needed to send uh to send a signal . Uh we have a simple , regular and advanced chip . And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker , which is a little cryptic uh to me . But I think that's the the voice recognition thing that we are uh thinking about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Yeah yeah , you can um {disfmarker} I have some information about it . Uh in the voice recognition you say a word {disfmarker} you can programme words like uh v uh volume up . Of mute , let's say mute .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Okay . Okay . So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um you programme it , you m mute and you g you give um an uh an action to it that that's really the mute function", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm . Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and uh when you speak in the the remote control , it repeats uh your saying . that's the sample sensor . So So if you say mute , it says mute again ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and then it's um {disfmarker} well , I believe it's uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It performs the action . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , and then uh he he repeats its action what {disfmarker} which he believes it is .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So you say mute , he repeats mute and you {disfmarker} makes a computer sound mute , and then goes to the mute function .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay . Okay , so that's basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for . Okay . This sample sensor uh requires an regular chip , I thought . Um no op I'm not very sure . No , it's not in here . If we want to use the L_C_D_ display , we really need the advanced version , which is a bit l little bit more costly . If we want to use the scroll-wheels we need the regular version . And if we don't want to use uh any of these uh more advanced functions we can keep with the simple uh chip , which is a bit cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh well {disfmarker} uh", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "d did we already decide on the display ? To {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no , but I think that's something for uh Roo here to think about .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well , I don't have um {disfmarker} I haven't looked for uh for information about it , but I don't think information {disfmarker} uh y I don't think you need it on a display .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Especially when when we have to look at a cost , I don't think uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I don't think either .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "'cause uh {gap} uh all {disfmarker} any T_V_ can uh can uh view a digit on uh on screen ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No . I don't think you need it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "On screen display . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay , well", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "my conclusion , um unfortunately the market has decided the {disfmarker} a little uh other than I thought . I thought um the market would like uh a sort m sort of titanium casing , but they seem to like natural uh stuff . So maybe we should think about uh wood finish . Um I've chosen the more battery with solar cell uh solution for the energy . It's more reliable , it's cheaper .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . Good .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I don't think we should use the dynamo thing . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Kineti okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The kinetic thing it {gap} it's it's a possibility . It's it's more advanced , but I'm {disfmarker} I think you should combine it with batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , it's maybe a bit too too flashy ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Otherwise it will not {disfmarker} too advanced ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "too {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "uh well .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's {disfmarker} in in in some way it can give us an advance , because you will save on your batteries .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , but that {disfmarker} that's the same with the solar cell . That's no different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But {disfmarker} Yes . And I think it's more robust .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's more uh Uh it's more functional .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But what about um the markets {vocalsound} uh wants colourfuls uh designs ? So if you use titanium {disfmarker} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , but the uh um {disfmarker} that's what Sebastian said .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The titanium thing uh we have to skip it . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "He said uh this is what uh this is my personal preference . But but yet , I understood that the market is different .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So I think we should skip the titanium uh stuff ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "and we should uh use wood or something like that .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And I would think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "And", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "r", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ,", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "rubber with colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "the {disfmarker} yeah , the older people liked wood .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Oh okay , sorry . So it it needs to be rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Colourful and {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , the younger people liked soft material .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , spongy materials .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay , um well um these scroll-wheels , I think uh they they can be they can be handy .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And they can be implemented with a regular chip ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} Yes , they can . But they really need the regular chip , you cannot use the sa simple {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , but we also {disfmarker} uh we already need the regular chip for the sample uh sensor speaker {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , I'm not very sure . Maybe that's an uh {disfmarker} a different {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "oh ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But but do we want the curved uh uh design ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "evalu", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} I think so , if you if you stick with the the simple uh straight-forward uh not curve design , i uh it's too dull .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I it's too dull . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think c our customers will like it .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "And um if you uh take the double-curved , uh then you cannot {disfmarker} um you can only use the rubber buttons and you cannot use the scroll-wheels .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So I think this is the best of two worlds .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , what about um {vocalsound} the issue I um addressed at the beginning of the meeting ? Um the voice function w with the infrared uh issue . Because it it's of cour", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's it's {disfmarker} uh I uh I can imagine it's very dull to talk to a device w if you have to point to another device .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It's very unlogical .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} But most infrared uh remote controls don't have to be pointed at all .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well the there has to be some pointing at . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "It depends also on your on your {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , if you if you take your hand before it , okay , it won't work , but you can point it just {vocalsound} to the other wall .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it depends on your walls actually . If you have uh have um smooth walls , it it it probably {disfmarker} you're probably right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "But if you have carpets on the wall , which our natural loving friends probably do have , then um {disfmarker} yeah , th th it might be a bit more of a issue .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "All lights get absorbed , yeah . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes , because the walls they they reflect the infrared light .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {vocalsound} it has an {disfmarker} it's easier . Um I suggest we use the the sensor sample . Uh the sample sensor and sample speaker . Um with a with a regular chip .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And the regular chip .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think uh it gives us the advantage of {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And and the scroll uh scroll-wheels . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I like the scroll wheels uh idea .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And uh skip {disfmarker} and skip the L_C_D_ part .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I don't think it it's any uh value added thing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "No . Think so too .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , it looks {disfmarker} uh yeah , well um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "according to Ruud , the the the market likes um new flashy technology ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Technology .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "and I mean L_C_D_ is {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . It's not very flashy and new .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "well , ok I know , but it's m it's less um s standard", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Standard ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "than than {disfmarker} Well , we are not very w we do not know uh much about the the f the financial part . That's the problem .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Because if we do have enough um space in in our finance , I would say do integrate it ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "because it it adds a little ext extra high-tech feeling to it .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But we already have the scroll-wheels , the sp uh the speaker uh the speak recognition , the rubber , the fancy colours .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Mm yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I think our customers will go insane .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} It's it's too much .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , I I agree . I think i Ruud , do you have any um anything you would like to um add or or maybe thoughts or {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Nah , um n no , I don't think so . M", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No ? Sebast uh nee , Roo ? {gap} Roo , do you have any other {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um no . Nothing more .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Nothing more . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Okay . Uh the n the next phase will be um the um {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sebas", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "what is the next phase {gap} f Flores ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Well , we we {vocalsound} need to describe uh decisions now .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So i", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "on the energy , well , we decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Chip .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The case uh rubber with uh c one one uh one curve .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "User interface um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh but uh can't scroll-wheels uh work with one uh one-curved case ? Yeah , okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , they can work .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Sorry , yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They cannot work with double-curved .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Oh , sorry . Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's that's problem . I'll check it for you .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um then the corporate identity should be uh in the product . I guess that is something for Roo and Sebastian . Uh you talked about it before , the colours , grey and yellow .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Keep it in mind . And um the buttons , well we talked about it now . The next phase , um Sebastian , um is um the design of the look and feel . The user interface design .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yes . Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And for you , the product evaluation . Um I'm sure your personal coach will give you more information on that .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Um and uh the I_D_ and the U_I_D_ need to work together on the prototype drawing on the SMARTboard .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "And I'm going uh to plan my holidays . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} The project drawing is for the next {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So you will be on the Bahamas . Uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's it's uh {disfmarker} when we come back in thirty minutes , uh you will have a uh prototype ready .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , right .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . So can you uh give us a summary of all uh decisions we've made ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah ? I can . Um maybe one of you could write it down .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . Um {disfmarker} Uh you you need to help me . Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . W start with the casing .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "The casing is curved , single-curved .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Single-curved .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , single-curved case . Okay . What about the energy source ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Traditional batteries uh and solar .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But can there be uh wor can they work together ? Or do we have to choose between them ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "'Cause if we have to choose {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "they can be complementary . Uh al al I uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "yeah ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I I think they can . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Every device {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What if not ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "It it should be . There should be really no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "They can be supplementary . That's no problem .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay , um", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "th", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So uh uh just uh the energy source is um the batteries and the solar .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Battery and solar , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . What about uh the finishing of the case ? We have decided we wanted to use the rubber ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , with colourful rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh if it's possible with uh different um covers , but I'm not sure if our suppliers can uh can help us with uh with such uh uh a wish .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay , and I think we should use the company colours . Something like black and red . {gap} uh black and yellow .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh grey and yellow or black and yellow . Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Grey and yellow .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Grey yellow , okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yellow case and grey buttons , I think .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , although I don't think that's very colourful . Except for the yellow of course ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but um I could think of a more uh attractive uh c uh set of colours .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Oh , I think it's uh {disfmarker} it's not very dull . It's quite modern actually . Don't you think ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , I was more thinking about the fruit colours that the Ruud showed us before .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I believe the {disfmarker} But you have already um {disfmarker} you must have a red uh on and off button . And um {disfmarker} Well {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well , it it doesn't have to be red . Uh I mean th uh I think these colours are really what our young people are looking for . Um so maybe it shouldn't even be two colours , it should be a full colour cover with such an image", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "or or {disfmarker} I mean thinking in two colours is is too black and white for our m uh c uh market group , I guess .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or black and yellow .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Black and yellow , yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} Okay ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but uh I'm afraid it's not possible to print a picture on uh the device . Because uh I agree it would be nice to have have something like that on the device itself . But {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Well , there is . {vocalsound} Just a week ago , a keyboard manufacturer would print ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Oh , I've read .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "with {gap} and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes . Yes ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound} No .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "but our manufacturing department is not so advanced in its uh techniques . They're actually very slow in its techniques .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , so we have to deal with wh what's possible here .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker} So I'm afraid it's not possible .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay . Um more f more more decisions we made . Um {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "A scroll-wheel .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "The scroll-heel . Yes , the voice recognition we already decided .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Voice recognition , of course .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay , so scroll-wheel . But there will be some additional buttons , I guess .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And th the {disfmarker} they should be spongy also , because they're they're rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh I'm going to leave that up to you two . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound}", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "What what did you say ?", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well uh you can use {disfmarker} well , when you use the buttons , they'll they'll be made of rubber too .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "So it has th the spongy uh feel also .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , or you could use plastic buttons . In the rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think rubber is nice . Because it uh i I mean what do you touch the button , and what do they want spongy uh uh devices , or or i", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b But then you just have the the fact that um the drawings on the buttons will disappear eventually .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "{gap} .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "What I said in the in the first uh discussion , uh the digit six on the button , it will disappear when it's from rubber .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh is that {disfmarker} uh does our our supplier say so ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "It is not uh something uh {disfmarker} it's no information I read about it or so , but it's just from {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Uh didn't {disfmarker} did we inc uh include the digi digits or uh leave them to the speech recognition ?", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "No , but but uh it {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "'Cause things like uh volume could be uh placed next to the button .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "Yeah . You could place a {disfmarker} um uh this this would be the button .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "There {disfmarker} the icons .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "The scroll-wheel , I mean . And you could place the indica th th the signals the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , b yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah , that's possible ,", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "That's okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "So you don't touch the icons that much .", "speaker": "Marketing" }, { "content": "but then you have still the images on the rubber of the case . So still then , if you feel uh li uh if you feel your remote control , you just rub on the cover , so you rub on the painting .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "No no , there's no painting , only uh yellow or {disfmarker} But it's into the rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah . Yeah , but but the the plus or the minus .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , but this is on the pla", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "You have to draw the {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yes , the signs .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "yeah , I know . Um I think uh I know which you understand af uh I know what you mean .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah , it's on the cover . So if you uh {disfmarker} You just move the problem .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "What about um making this rubber and making this plastic ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Uh I see what you mean . Well , maybe that's possible , because um uh our manufacturing division also offers plastic finishing . So maybe they can combine these two .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Well actually , we should have it the other way around , I guess . A plastic cover with rubber finishing . I mean , this is this is the finishing . This is um what's on the edge . What you feel .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "But the front , on which the the buttons are doesn't have to be rubber .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Mm-hmm .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Well , I'm I'm not so sure ,", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Y uh can you separate these uh these {disfmarker}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think it c should be Well , I'm not sure , I have to ask with manufacturing , but I'm I'm not sure that's what you want , because our customers specifically ask for the spongy feel , and that's what you get with rubber . So if you want the spongy feel , you need uh to make these buttons all all of rubber .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I know , but do you touch this or do you touch this ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} I think both .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "I mean , I I never touch between the buttons .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I do . {vocalsound}", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I do .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the s uh the sideways .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Or the the back . Or the back .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah , the side , exactly , the sideways . The side , but do you touch between the the {disfmarker} these buttons ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I think {disfmarker} Yes , especially when there are l a few buttons on it , you have uh a lot of space to touch . So you just have it in your hand completely or or {disfmarker} i you play with it .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay . Well , we do not have very much time uh left . Um I guess you two have to figure that out . I'm going to leave the decision to you ,", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "um because you have to make its prototype , and um {disfmarker} yeah y you have the most knowledge about the suppliers , the possibilities and uh {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "so I'm going to leave it {disfmarker} the decision with you . Um Sebastian , did you write enough decisions down ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Um not quite . Um what about uh the chips ? We use the regular chip ?", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Regular .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Use with {gap} .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Well {disfmarker} no , I think that's about it . Yes .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay . With those regular chips we can still uh control advanced functions . The chip is is not really {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "The only difference between the advanced and the regular version is that the advanced uh version of the chip supports L_C_D_ . That's all .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Okay , well .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "And we've decided not to use L_C_D_ .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Yeah . Okay .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "So {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Um okay , then I think we are uh quite finished . Um I'll see you guys in thirty minutes and um {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{gap} . For the finishing touch .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah ? Yeah , um if you write {disfmarker} wrote anything down , uh could you put it on the shared folder ?", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "Okay . Okay .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Uh yeah .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "Yeah .", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "But um Sebastian has everything .", "speaker": "User Interface" }, { "content": "I know , but {disfmarker} well {disfmarker}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "I'll put it online .", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Great . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Project Manager" }, { "content": "{vocalsound} {vocalsound}", "speaker": "Industrial Designer" }, { "content": "Right .", "speaker": "Project Manager" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Which is a big problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly meet with—employers—and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially, but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Kay, is that your experience?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications. But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English—", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Fine.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "—just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to—. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me—that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board, I think the employers—. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Yes, it's no problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "So, do we get rid of it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Great advocates.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Siân?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, there is no problem there.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I've finished, thank you.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Call them 'commercial'.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "That's great. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'm being devil's advocate.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "That's a question.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just ask—? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at—. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Which is a big problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly meet with—employers—and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially, but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Kay, is that your experience?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications. But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English—", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Fine.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "—just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to—. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me—that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board, I think the employers—. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Yes, it's no problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "So, do we get rid of it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Great advocates.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Siân?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, there is no problem there.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I've finished, thank you.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Call them 'commercial'.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "That's great. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'm being devil's advocate.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "That's a question.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just ask—? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at—. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]

[ { "content": "Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and there is no substitute. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, is a further evidence session, number four, on our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased to welcome Dafydd Evans, who is chair, ColegauCymru, and chief executive officer of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai; Kay Martin, principal of Cardiff and Vale College, also representing ColegauCymru; Nick Brazil, who is deputy principal, Gower College Swansea, also representing ColegauCymru; Dr Rachel Bowen, director of policy and development at ColegauCymru; and Ed Evans, who is the director and secretary of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. Thank you all for attending. We're very pleased that you've been able to join us. If it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Siân Gwenllian.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Good morning. I'll be asking my questions in Welsh.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Which is a big problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly meet with—employers—and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially, but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Kay, is that your experience?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications. But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Do you mind if I carry on in English—", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Fine.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "—just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to—. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me—that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board, I think the employers—. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I will carry on in English, if that's okay.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Yes, it's no problem.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "So, do we get rid of it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Suzy, you've got a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Have you finished? Janet.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you. Good morning. What are your views on how well the Welsh bac, at all levels, helps to prepare learners for employment? We've spoken to quite a few learners, and again we've had variable opinions coming back, so it's quite how they, from their perspective—.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities. And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges, and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths, English and Welsh. It's a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects. But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people. And so there's no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications. So, the priorities, I think, across the sector—. We've given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present. So, at levels 1 and 2, there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they're resitting their GCSEs, and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3, and A-level, and vocational level 3.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add to that? I think, again, there's a misconception. The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications; it's not just one qualification—it's a combination. So, to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part, and developing the skills for employment is a key part. But when you are focused, if you are a learner, on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example, resits, your main qualification, plus your work for the Welsh bac, which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that's a huge amount of work. And, obviously, when you're trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority, and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills, which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability. So, I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things. And I think it was interesting, the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that's something that we need to think about.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "If I could just say as well, our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people, and we use every tool in our box to do that. And, as I said earlier, there are lots of things that we do. The Welsh bac, where it works really well, does help prepare them, I think, for employment, but it's not for everyone, because some people have to do the other things. Some people doing the equivalent of three A-levels, even in a vocational programme, it's too big for them. As you say, they're coming from schools, some of them with very few GCSEs, or they haven't got literacy and numeracy skills, they're being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy. So, I think it needs to be reviewed, to look at how we could make skilled and employable people. It helps prepare some people—the A-level students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable? No, it doesn't.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "And this, ultimately, has to be about what's in the best interests of learners, and a one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to work.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Thank you. Is there a difference in how the Welsh bac is valued by learners at the different levels that it is studied? ColegauCymru said that learners may have had a negative experience of the Welsh bac in previous study.", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "That's been a new dimension lately, I think, in that, when the Welsh bac first hit FE, we were leading the way—", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Great advocates.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "—and great advocates. By now, of course, they're coming to us having been through a Welsh bac experience at school, and therefore many of the learners feel that there's repeating going on then—'Oh, we've done this at school already. Why are we doing it again at college?' So, I think that's a problem for us as well.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Many have experienced a paper-based exercise rather than a real activity. So, at level 1 and level 2, it's not what we would call a crowd puller in colleges, but at level 3 it's more, especially for A-levels, because it can help them get into university, but even for the more able and talented—we were discussing this, weren't we? We have learners who do four A-levels, but they don't do the Welsh baccalaureate because they're part of the Seren network, and they are going to be applying for Oxbridge or high-level Russell Group universities. So, the Welsh bac, although it's technically universally adopted by universities, it isn't adopted by every admissions tutor in every university. So, to get into some areas, like dentistry, for example, and some of the other Seren-type activities, four A-levels is better. But in most colleges that have A-level students it's almost compulsory to do the Welsh bac as well, but normally that would be three A-levels and the Welsh bac—normally.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay. And then ColegauCymru say that, increasingly, the Welsh bac is not being offered at post-16 national and foundation level. So, are the different levels of the Welsh bac valued differently by further education professionals?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "I think we've got to bear in mind when the students come to us—certainly when they're level 1, level 2 learners—that a number of them have come from school and probably not done as well as they'd hoped at their GCSEs. Okay, they've come to us, they're trying to build themselves back up, build their skills back up, and adding another qualification on top, adding the Welsh bac on top, whether that's foundation or national, on top of what they have to do, which is a programme they've come and decided to do—think of the pressure that increases upon them. Plus the fact is that they are resitting; they're probably having to resit GCSE English and maths as well. That's a huge volume of work for a learner who's probably come from a low base to begin with and who hasn't achieved what they wanted to. The whole idea when we bring them in at that level is that we want to build their confidence, build them up and, hopefully, eventually they will go to the stage where maybe the Welsh bac will be beneficial to them, when they've potentially hopefully progressed to level 3. But I think it's questionable, certainly at national and foundation. And the important point that Dafydd raised was that there's a lot of repetition there in school, pre 16 to post 16 at those levels as well. So, learners don't come in banging at the door saying, 'We want to do the Welsh bac because it's exactly the same or very similar to what we did when we were in school.' They want to see some difference, they want to see some progress, and that's not necessarily the case in the foundation and national levels.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And we know that delivery in schools is of variable quality, so obviously that impacts on how learners have experienced it and perhaps how they view it when they get to FE college.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Okay. A question, then, just to ColegauCymru: to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac?", "speaker": "Janet Finch-Saunders AM" }, { "content": "Well, we don't think they do, really, especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities. They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade. I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well, but it was a very paper-based exercise. But I think it is mixed, and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they're going into in universities. In some areas, and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales, Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects, particularly in sport, when our students go to Cardiff Met, and business studies, when our learners go to USW. It is valued by them and they accept it, but when people go further afield—and we're always trying to push our learners beyond. Where they can afford to go away to university, we encourage that. But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Did you have a supplementary, Siân?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes. You didn't mention Cardiff University there.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Cardiff University—yes. My daughter's example—that was Cardiff University. So, they do, especially now it's graded at level 3. Then they do accept it. A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate, but would their admissions tutors prefer four A-levels? Absolutely.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Could I jump in there? I've got to jump in there as, from the institution I'm in, we've had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities, and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those, they do not value the Welsh bac. But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac, they say it is on top of three A2-level grades. So, obviously, we've had that track record. I think the Seren programme that's been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses, but you look through the range, particularly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects as well, across a number and range of universities, the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one. So, bear in mind, then, that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish, Northern Irish and, potentially, English students who are studying three subjects, whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s, three A-level subjects plus the Welsh bac. And, as we talked about earlier on, the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous, you could say complicated, qualification, which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they're trying to get possibly three A* grades. So, I think we need to consider that. In relation to the first answer, it is variable, and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions, and also make the decision dependent on whether it's a facilitating subject or an enabling subject, which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects, and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Siân.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "I mentioned before coming in, in terms of the context—. Because of the nature of our catchment area, there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities, and, as Kay said, Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac. So, to a certain extent, it is less of a problem. But, naturally, we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group, and we're having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there's no problem there, though.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No, there is no problem there.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Thank you. Right, the next questions are from Julie Morgan.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Right.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Suzy, you had a supplementary.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "And obviously practice will differ across schools.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Julie, did you have any more questions?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "No, I've finished, thank you.", "speaker": "Julie Morgan AM" }, { "content": "We've got some questions now then, from Suzy, on universal adoption.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Well, I'm wondering if I need to ask them, really, because I think I'm getting a strong sense that you all think that universal adoption is a bad idea at this moment in time. However, I do want to test something, because we have had witnesses who say that it would be a good idea because it reduces the amount of competition and advantage that certain institutions have. So, for example, we had an indication from the union representing Welsh-speaking teachers that if the baccalaureate was universally adopted, it would remove an artificial choice, basically, for learners, i.e. they were losing Welsh-speaking students who didn't want to do the bac to English-speaking institutions. So, I wonder if you could tell me how much the decision in your individual colleges not to offer bac is down to the opportunity that it presents you to attract students, particularly from sixth forms, where students may be obliged to do the bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "That is not the case, I would say. When a learner comes to us, we—. I'd like to think that all the staff in all the colleges do what is in the best interests of the learner. In some cases, it's to go back to school, and we absolutely say, 'You need to go back to school.' If somebody comes from a Welsh-medium school, then usually I will speak to the head and make sure that we have a programme in place, that either they're studying their programme bilingually or through the medium of Welsh, or that we make sure that they absolutely keep their Welsh language skills. We don't say, 'Come to us and you don't have to do the Welsh bac,' because if they do A-levels, we say it's compulsory, unless you're in the Seren group.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Yes. Well, that's the point; it's about English-speaking students, not just Welsh—.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "No, it isn't used. In the majority of colleges across Wales, it is absolutely not used as a recruitment tool, because most of us, as you see, we value the Welsh bac. We'd like some changes to the Welsh bac, but we value the Welsh bac in many cases. So, we wouldn't deliberately—. I mean, if a course in my college doesn't want to do the Welsh bac, they have to come and give me evidence about why they don't think it's fit and what they're going to do in place of it. So, we don't deliberately tell people, 'Come on in and you won't have to do it.'", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Okay, can I run that across you all, in an outburst of honesty?", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, absolutely. We universally adopt at level 3, but we don't at levels 1 and 2.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Oh, yes, for the reasons you've given in the evidence, actually.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes, but across the whole of level 3, A-level and vocational, the Welsh bac is an integral part of the curriculum, and it isn't an option for the student to opt out.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Do you let your Seren students opt out like they do in Cardiff and the Vale, or do they have to do it as well?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We've forced—. No, sorry, 'forced' is not the word. [Laughter.] We have encouraged and persuaded everybody to do it.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "So, that will be four A-levels plus bac.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Yes.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "I've got to be honest, at present, with our college, we do not ask. It's compulsory for A-level students to do the Welsh bac. It's an option of one of our choices—we have a large choice—and I think it comes back to that fact that we're just making the assumption all learners are getting all the correct advice and guidance from all the institutions. I think it's something we all need to consider across the nation, that all learners are getting the right advice and guidance for their future. I will go back to the point I made earlier—everything's comparable as long as it's the right thing for the learner's future, and I genuinely believe, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues believe, that that choice element is important to a learner, okay. If it is the right choice and if the Welsh bac is the right choice, that is correct, and we move that along. Obviously, we debated about where there are elements that need to change. But you've got to be doing the right things for the learner, and we are certainly not selling it, 'Come to us; you don't do the Welsh bac.' It is part of what we offer. It is part of what the college's curriculum offers—there is no doubt about that—and then people make a choice according to what they need to do to actually progress to what they need to do in their future.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Call them 'commercial'.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "That's great. Thank you.", "speaker": "Suzy Davies AM" }, { "content": "Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'm being devil's advocate.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to—.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "That's a question.", "speaker": "Sian Gwenllian AM" }, { "content": "You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.", "speaker": "Dr Rachel Bowen" }, { "content": "Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "Thank you, Chair. A lot of this has been covered, actually, but just on those final points there, I'm wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teacher-training qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on. What do you think about that?", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "I'm not assured in terms of—yes, training is required regarding the Welsh bac, but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board. When we were bringing lecturers from outside—'Welsh bac specialists' in inverted commas—it was not working well. It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum. Therefore, no, I think that if it's going to be a success, it's got to be contextualised, and for the vocational lecturers to do that, and we've invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac—. It's been an intensive staff development process.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "And I think you've got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well. So, a number of those staff have already got those skills and they're undertaking that. I suppose when it comes to the word 'credibility' used in terms of the qualification, yes, I'm sure it would raise that focus on it, but ultimately, it's taking away from the fact that we have got staff who've got those skills and they're developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they're doing. Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that, sometimes, that work is being repeated twice, because of the nature of the qualification.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "And have you got dedicated time? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons, and therefore, it wasn't being, again, given the same perceived level of importance as doing A-levels were. But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver—", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "On their timetables, yes. And as you say, industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I was just going to add there, really, if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular, if you've got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this—. Apologies, I'd almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing, I was thinking 'schools' actually [Laughter.] But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way, not an ad-hoc way, which is just a friend turning up to talk about something, a structured way—. We have a programme under way at the moment called 'contextualising the curriculum' in the sector that we hope to roll out. Now, if that was rolled out across the board—I'm not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular, but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and world-skilled, global areas, because it's not their bag. So, bring in some experts, bring in some business, raise the profile, and I think then, possibly, you'll start to get parents thinking, 'Actually, there is something more to this than just the academic bit.'", "speaker": "Ed Evans" }, { "content": "Okay. I think all my other points have been answered, Chair. Thank you.", "speaker": "Dawn Bowden AM" }, { "content": "Okay. Can I just ask—? You've all got slightly different policies; they don't have to do it in Swansea, in Cardiff and the Vale, they do unless they're in the Seren network, and in your college, everybody does it, even if they're doing four A-levels. Do you think that's a satisfactory situation, and are you satisfied with the communication and the guidance and the steer that everyone's getting from Welsh Government on this? Because we're meant to have a policy of universal adoption, but that doesn't really seem to be happening on the ground.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" }, { "content": "And I think, if you'd asked us a few years ago, we were all heading for universal adoption, but because the Welsh bac has changed into something that isn't 100 per cent what we think it should be, then we've stopped the universal adoption, if you like. So, we are trying to do what's in the best interests of the learner, but I think, as you said, we've mentioned some other programmes, and if we could look at—. We've got industry experts in colleges. We've got industry experts that are brought into colleges as well, some more than others, to bring that to life, if you like. We've got mentorship programmes, we send people out, and we just need to incorporate that better. We need to spend less time in checking what they've done on assessment and more time in the doing, and the experiential learning that they need to do, rather than it being too much of a paper exercise. By the time you've done all the paperwork you haven't got time to do any of the learning.", "speaker": "Kay Martin" }, { "content": "I think, just to support Kay, we're going to need to go back to the original vision of the Welsh bac, which all of us would buy into 100 per cent. I think that has been lost as the qualification's developed over time, and, ultimately, I think all of us would like to see it go back to that to provide those skills that Ed has brought up and everything. I think we all support that. But is it quite right? I'm not sure at the moment.", "speaker": "Nick Brazil" }, { "content": "I'll agree. We visited Spain recently, and there they have an entrepreneurship and enterprise unit that is mandatory for everybody, but it appeared to be far more fit for purpose than the Welsh bac is currently. Therefore, I think what we're saying is, if we're going universal adoption, it can't be with this product. This product isn't the product to universally adopt.", "speaker": "Dafydd Evans" }, { "content": "Okay, that's interesting. Okay. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering our questions? It's been a very informative and interesting discussion. We will, as usual, send you a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you again for your time this morning. Okay, item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care regarding the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, paper to note 2 is the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Children's Commissioner for Wales on home education, and paper to note 3 is the letter that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has sent to us in reply to our letter about free school meals. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then: can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Yes.", "speaker": "Lynne Neagle AM" } ]